Tanaka back in charge?!

[Eradius]

Edited my OP:

Tanaka has always been in charge of 11 and didn't move to 14! Guess I'm a moron :3

Either way no more funny business like AV/PW and competing over 24 hour NM's please, Devs!


*******
The original post covered my surprise to see Tanaka's post as producer, as I was under the impression he had moved to from 11 to 14, and then was taken off the board after 14. Appearantly he has been with us this entire time, but was hardly active. The discussion has turned to whether or not he is actually involved in the game now, and whether or not the content is returning to his methods that happened to be the dev team's trade beneath his rule.

[Elexia]

Tanaka's always been in a head position of FFXI and still a consultant for XIV. He's been around since at least January by the way, so...there's a big hole that logic.

[Eradius]

I was under the impression he was wholly removed from 11 to 14, and that there was an announcement about it? Perhaps I am confused on the matter.

[Byrth]

Don't call it a comeback
he's been there for years
Rockin his peers and puttin suckas in fear
Makin the tears rain down like a MON-soon
...Listen to the bass go BOOM?

[Eradius]

Seems I was mistaken then, it was the old battle director being replaced by Matsui that I saw as an announcement back then:

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/1009/topics_all.html

[Elexia]

I was under the impression he was wholly removed from 11 to 14, and that there was an announcement about it? Perhaps I am confused on the matter.

He was Director/Producer for XIV, then got shifted back to XI around January and Naoki Yoshida was put in charge of XIV.

[Runespider]

He never actually offically moved from here but he was far more involved with FFXIV and others were taking the decisions on FFXI, hence why it changed so much while he wasn't really around here during the time he was working on FFXIV. Now that he's been removed from FFXIV and that Yoshida took his full time job he can fully give XI his attention..sadly.



Tanaka has always been in charge of 11 and didn't move to 14

He most certainly was involved very highly in XIV, to the point he took the fall for the state it was in and very publicly replaced.

[Insaniac]

Tanaka was replaced at one point which is why the game was more fun than torture for about a year. Incoming thread nuke btw.

[Elexia]

Tanaka was replaced at one point which is why the game was more fun than torture for about a year. Incoming thread nuke btw.

Yet he's been more active on the XI since December 2010 (Heroes of Abyssea) given the time of the staff rearranging notification on FFXIV's website.

So..yeah.

[Insaniac]

Yet he's been more active on the XI since December 2010 (Heroes of Abyssea) given the time of the staff rearranging notification on FFXIV's website.

So..yeah.I don't recall anything mentioning him coming back to 11. I do recall them saying Tanaka would still stay on board with 14 in some facility. Either way I'm sure abyssea was already planned out if he came back at that time and there was nothing he could do about it no matter how much it hurt him to see people accomplish goals in reasonable amounts of time. Bottom line is Tanaka's approach to MMO design is "reward dangling in front a treadmill" where people keep playing because they want stuff but never get it which is what we've been seeing more of since his clandestine return. When he was away we got the "trail of goodies" approach where people get something they want and then move on to the next thing they want which, while less sustainable for a game in it's twilight with a low production budget, results in a much happier player base that doesn't rage quit over things like 1500 heavy metal plates.

[Tawnee]

I don't recall anything mentioning him coming back to 11.

I wouldn't exactly want to make that public either if you know what I mean. But yeah, everyone should have known immediately after the changes to the Black Belt item NMs. This update just solidified the suspicions.

[Atomic_Skull]

Tanaka's always been in a head position of FFXI and still a consultant for XIV. He's been around since at least January by the way, so...there's a big hole that logic.

I remember last year he moved completely to XIV and XI's battle director replaced him here. Then he was booted off when it became obvious that XIV was a massive ball of fail and XI's producer replaced him while the director for Abyssea was promoted to XI producer. Somewhere between then and about 2 months ago Tanana was reinstated as XI's producer.

[Atomic_Skull]

I don't recall anything mentioning him coming back to 11.


Right here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13701-FINAL-FANTASY-Test-Server-A-Message-from-the-Producer)

[Insaniac]

Right here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13701-FINAL-FANTASY-Test-Server-A-Message-from-the-Producer)Yeah that doesn't really count as an announcement that he's back in charge lol and that only happened less than a month ago. BTW the second I saw that post my heart sank. I want him nowhere near this game. His ideals are too old school. Don't get me wrong a have nothing against a bit of elbow grease and hard work but ALL Tanaka cares about is keeping a bottle neck on anything that people might actually go after because it's the cheapest and easiest way to make sure the hard cores keep playing but you are gonna see nearly all of the games new and returning casuals jump ship just like they did before when they ran out of stuff to do that wasn't a grueling terrible task.

[Zaknafein]

I for one am very pleased to see the game moving back in the direction of LS based content vs the Mnk & Whm duo abyssea BS. With a bit of tinkering to WoE (3:1 coin trade npc) and to Voidwatch to make drops based more accurately by performance vs random radomness I think we would be headed in the right direction.

[Falseliberty]

I've been a paying customer since '03 and this is the fool that said hey "no windowed mode for u cuz thats for hackers and bots. these are the guys that thought AV and PW was perfectly fine end game content. these where the guys that we begged and begged to fix kings, yet they said naw we don't see a problem

I'm sorry if i sound bitter but most of the old dev crew just didn't listen to anyone back then

maybe the backlash from 14 was a good thing?

[Fream]

A friend and I were joking about Tanaka trying to run XI into the ground, being bitter over having to fall on his sword for XIV (XI funds -> fixing XIV -> possible tinfoil hat?). I hope it doesn't turn out to be true though. 2003 / 2004 were both good years, sure, but c'mon now. That being said, huge LS events can be fun, as long as it doesn't take forever (or 2 seconds) to get good drops. Moderation, blah blah.

[Draylo]

I for one am very pleased to see the game moving back in the direction of LS based content vs the Mnk & Whm duo abyssea BS. With a bit of tinkering to WoE (3:1 coin trade npc) and to Voidwatch to make drops based more accurately by performance vs random radomness I think we would be headed in the right direction.

Same here, I am really glad Voidwatch has that now. Good linkshell event but the only thing is the drop rates are really terrible imo. Every run people complain about getting random synth mats like logs :/ so it kinda offsets the fun challenging fights with disappointment.

[Insaniac]

I don't think anyone is really upset about group activities. VW is pretty fun imo and I'm glad to see challenging content that requires people to have some level of skill to complete. What I'm not glad to see is FFXI going back to the "I've been doing this event for 3 years and I still don't have what I want" model. I've been doing voidwatch pretty frequently with my LS since a couple weeks after it was introduced and I still don't have a single one of the items I wanted from it. That is Tanaka game design at it's finest. There's pretty much no way I am gonna put myself through that again considering I may not even get what I want before the servers go down this time around. I will probably quit pretty soon after the 99 cap if the game doesn't look like it's headed in a direction that is less Tanakafied.

[Hayward]

I for one am very pleased to see the game moving back in the direction of LS based content vs the Mnk & Whm duo abyssea BS. With a bit of tinkering to WoE (3:1 coin trade npc) and to Voidwatch to make drops based more accurately by performance vs random radomness I think we would be headed in the right direction.

You say this so cavalierly, as though there wasn't such a thing as LS drama and politics in the past. I, for one, do not want to go back to a time where you had to apply to the right LS, kiss the right you-know-whats, and submit to the whims of a 15-year-old LS leader with a Napoleon complex in order to get the things you want from the game. I wanted nothing to do with that environment then, and sure don't want anything to do with it now. If that means getting ripped by idiots for wearing my AF3 +1 or +2 gear by 99, so be it. I will not compromise myself for digital trinkets. I didn't get into the game for that purpose.

[Gallus]

Tanaka's not good for the game.

[Vortex]

You say this so cavalierly, as though there wasn't such a thing as LS drama and politics in the past. I, for one, do not want to go back to a time where you had to apply to the right LS, kiss the right you-know-whats, and submit to the whims of a 15-year-old LS leader with a Napoleon complex in order to get the things you want from the game. I wanted nothing to do with that environment then, and sure don't want anything to do with it now. If that means getting ripped by idiots for wearing my AF3 +1 or +2 gear by 99, so be it. I will not compromise myself for digital trinkets. I didn't get into the game for that purpose.

100% agreed, i have dealt with to many 8 year old i want my bottle leaders and overly greedy stuck up prick members who the only thing they care about is gearing them sevles and seek to do nothing but use and toss aside anyone that is not them or kiss there so to get gear like i dealt with on a previous server and shell, i do NOT want to have to deal with any more linkshells like this cause all it is s drama and more drama. i don't mind things being hard to obtain but if it means dealing with how it was back in 06-08 count me the f*** out, main reason why i have refused to bother with any high end linkshells since i moved here because i simply don't trust them anymore.

But other then that, let's be honest here, if things DON'T change then this game is surely dead. if you can get everything in a week with new content what would be the incentive to even play this more.

[Zaknafein]

You say this so cavalierly, as though there wasn't such a thing as LS drama and politics in the past. I, for one, do not want to go back to a time where you had to apply to the right LS, kiss the right you-know-whats, and submit to the whims of a 15-year-old LS leader with a Napoleon complex in order to get the things you want from the game. I wanted nothing to do with that environment then, and sure don't want anything to do with it now. If that means getting ripped by idiots for wearing my AF3 +1 or +2 gear by 99, so be it. I will not compromise myself for digital trinkets. I didn't get into the game for that purpose.

For all of you that feel that way I ask "What have you learned over the past year?" With all of the low man activities I would hope you learned to do things on your own, and in small groups. To think, and plan for yourself vs having a LS leader lead you around by the nose. I know I most certainly increased my knowledge of the game significantly over the past year.

I'm sorry if you had bad experiences in the past when HNM lent itself toward mega LS's. I'll say it again though like I have a thousand times. Every LS out there was not pure evil. LS's are like Gf's & Bf's. You may get lucky, and fall in love with your 1st. However, chances are you are going to need to have a few before you find the love of your life.

Going back to my initial point. If you are that convinced that every LS you ever apply to will be awful, and treat you badly because they are big meanies then start your own. All it takes is a few friends which is enough to static most anything in abyssea even for casual players. Pick a couple days a week to do Voidwatch, and shout in jeuno for extra bodies. You'd be surprised what you can accomplish with a little initiative.

Getting started on Voidwatch:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Voidwatch

Voidwatch NM tree:
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Category:Voidwatch_Notorious_Monsters

You can do it if you give it a shot!

[Mahoro]

You say this so cavalierly, as though there wasn't such a thing as LS drama and politics in the past. I, for one, do not want to go back to a time where you had to apply to the right LS, kiss the right you-know-whats, and submit to the whims of a 15-year-old LS leader with a Napoleon complex in order to get the things you want from the game. I wanted nothing to do with that environment then, and sure don't want anything to do with it now. If that means getting ripped by idiots for wearing my AF3 +1 or +2 gear by 99, so be it. I will not compromise myself for digital trinkets. I didn't get into the game for that purpose.

Like anything in life, one must do their research before making a decision. There are so many ways to check on a group's reputation these days that people who "submit to the whims of a 15 year old LS leader with a Napoleon complex" have nobody to blame but themselves for choosing wrong. There are plenty of linkshells out there with fair and equitable rules. I help lead one myself and there is literally no drama over loot. Assuming that there would be drama over the new LS-based content is inane anyway. How could there be Voidwatch drama when the loot pools are individual? Simple logic dictates.

I also welcome a return to LS-based content but agree with the posters who are saying the Voidwatch loot system needs some adjustments.

[Insaniac]

But other then that, let's be honest here, if things DON'T change then this game is surely dead. if you can get everything in a week with new content what would be the incentive to even play this more.I agree with this. The abyssea model doesn't work in a game with a low production budget because they can't pump out replacement content fast enough. Some kind of middle ground would be easily sustainable for ffxi though. NeoDyna/Relics are a reasonable grind now that will keep a lot of people playing for some time and that's the kind of model they should be using. Multiple medium level grinds for awesome gear that keep a semi-casual player busy for 2-4 months will extend the life of the game far more than 3 year grinds like 1500hmp and .2% drop rates on good gear from VWNMs. All these are going to do is discourage anyone but the hardcore players from even doing the content.

For the semi-casual player this update amounts to nothing more than a level cap increase that they will be done with in 3 weeks max. It's the same reason people left this game in droves when they got to level 75, got basic gear for their job, and the only thing left for them to do was level another job or camp an HNM for 3 hours against 120 people.

[Atomic_Skull]

100% agreed, i have dealt with to many 8 year old i want my bottle leaders and overly greedy stuck up prick members who the only thing they care about is gearing them sevles and seek to do nothing but use and toss aside anyone that is not them or kiss there so to get gear like i dealt with on a previous server and shell, i do NOT want to have to deal with any more linkshells like this cause all it is s drama and more drama. i don't mind things being hard to obtain but if it means dealing with how it was back in 06-08 count me the f*** out, main reason why i have refused to bother with any high end linkshells since i moved here because i simply don't trust them anymore.

But what about people who like huge mega shells, camping and endgame drama?

Yes those people exist, I'm one of them.

[Elexia]

Tanaka's not good for the game.

I know right? Damn us for playing his game.

[Runespider]

I know right? Damn us for playing his game.

FFXIV was Tanakas game too, they still kicked his ass to the kerb for sucking.

[Insaniac]

I wish we could start a "Remove Tanaka" petition that wouldn't get nuked instantly. I feel like he is reading all this and lowering VW drop rates while doing one of those insane laugh/crys.

[Vortex]

I wish we could start a "Remove Tanaka" petition that wouldn't get nuked instantly. I feel like he is reading all this and lowering VW drop rates while doing one of those insane laugh/crys.

It is a thread with HIS name in the title. I am pretty sure he has read or was told about it already lol, the fact one of the posts was just modded provs that somone who has access to him saw it :l

never mind the fact this is SEs forums.

[Atomic_Skull]

I feel like he is reading all this and lowering VW drop rates while doing one of those insane laugh/crys.

I was reminded of this. (http://thenoobcomic.com/index.php?pos=257)

[Eradius]

I played since beta, and there were good times and bad times. But if this starts turning back into Final Tanaka XI, then I'm out of here. Will finally delete my account and leave. Abyssea making the game easier was a double-edged sword, but I am not going to stand for 0% droprates, nerfs all around, and even more events that do things like our lovely WoE coin and scroll problem we have going on right now.

Its not a theory, it should be obvious to anyone that Tanaka is already slipping his slimy tentacles into all of our contents.

[Elexia]

I played since beta, and there were good times and bad times. But if this starts turning back into Final Tanaka XI, then I'm out of here. Will finally delete my account and leave. Abyssea making the game easier was a double-edged sword, but I am not going to stand for 0% droprates, nerfs all around, and even more events that do things like our lovely WoE coin and scroll problem we have going on right now.

Its not a theory, it should be obvious to anyone that Tanaka is already slipping his slimy tentacles into all of our contents.

Please. Even during "Abyssea XI" there's been nerfs, buffs retarded drop rates. Tell me, did you or did you not know you can still not get gear that's dependent on Blue Proc and TH? Did you know you can get up to 11 TH and all the procs done and still not see a soulscourge? Or Loki's? Or Twilight Gear?

Damn that Tanaka!

[Atomic_Skull]

scroll problem we have going on right now.

You do realize that without some rare expensive drops from those BCNMs there will be no incentive to do them, right?

[Eradius]

Please. Even during "Abyssea XI" there's been nerfs, buffs retarded drop rates. Tell me, did you or did you not know you can still not get gear that's dependent on Blue Proc and TH? Did you know you can get up to 11 TH and all the procs done and still not see a soulscourge? Or Loki's? Or Twilight Gear?

Damn that Tanaka!

Yes, I was amazingly- aware of all of the above!

Having a 60%+ chance at all the items you mentioned is far better than say

The 0.3% we were used to in Salvage and other events.

Waiting 21 hours for a chance at an NM

Doing Monarch Linn bc for Assault breastplate once a week for up to a year

Need I remind people of X's knife?

Original droprate for Thief's Knife?

22 hours fighting Pande Warden?

You could fill whole pages of this topic with a straight front to back list of the things that don't exist anymore that utterly sucked, and it was made abundantly clear to the playerbase that Tanaka was in fact at the heart of the problems, because of how quickly any method to kill AV but his own (super secret method!) were quickly patched. Don't even try to make up an excuse for that like we found unconventional ways, the damn thing was broken, unkillable.

We also saw what happened to 14 under his rule: No Auction house, No MH, 100% item to trade, Repair system, No delivery system.

Oh man, us not having 100% on Loki's today totally justifies the Caligula-style rule we felt underneath Tanaka! Right guys?

[Eradius]

You do realize that without some rare expensive drops from those BCNMs there will be no incentive to do them, right?

Yes, completely aware of that as well.

Have you also noticed how few scrolls we've gotten with 90+ people spamming WoE runs all day every day plus people shouting for the BC's? I don't even mean the 5-10 that have sold on some server's Auction Houses. At the rate we're going it will take well over a year just to get scrolls for only the mages that -currently- exist and need them. Sure, that keeps people going to the event. Sure, that makes WoE+BC's a "success". There is fallout to consider from this however.

[Runespider]

Please. Even during "Abyssea XI" there's been nerfs, buffs retarded drop rates. Tell me, did you or did you not know you can still not get gear that's dependent on Blue Proc and TH? Did you know you can get up to 11 TH and all the procs done and still not see a soulscourge? Or Loki's? Or Twilight Gear?

Damn that Tanaka!

Did you do endgame before Abyssea? Sandworm HNM which has a totally random pop system between 5 hours a day that could pop in any of 6+ zones, which had horrible drop rates on the most wanted items like VB. Salvage which very often took YEARS to get the drops you wanted along with large amounts of gil when you did get the bits. HNM which was totally impossible to do unless you sucked up enough to get into the correct shells and even then long waiting lists and again took many years to get rewarded for your 3 hours a day.

You have no idea how bad Tanakas game design is in this day and age, there was a very good reason he was moved away from FFXIV and he seemingly learned nothing from that and is trying to turn the clock back on FFXI too.

I don't think anyone has serious issues with making the game a little less Abyeasy but anyone with any sense at all does it a lot more gradually than this update did and Tanakas designs are way outdated anyway. FFXI has attracted a lot of people back to the game lately and this kind of direction is simply going to turn them all away again, I don't think any of us really want that. FFXI and it's players have changed too much for us to just wind back to his outdated ideas on keeping us paying them as long as possible, as cheaply as possible. Expectations are higher now.

[Kimble]

As bad as the drop rates were in Salvage, I don't recall ever hearing anyone bitch about having to do Salvage because it was a fun and enjoyable. Salvage is still hands down one of my personal favorite events.

[Prothscar]

As bad as the drop rates were in Salvage, I don't recall ever hearing anyone bitch about having to do Salvage because it was a fun and enjoyable. Salvage is still hands down one of my personal favorite events.

It was fun and enjoyable the first few times... but after the 11th dozen run of Citadel Chelonian it got kind of stale.

[Insaniac]

As bad as the drop rates were in Salvage, I don't recall ever hearing anyone bitch about having to do Salvage because it was a fun and enjoyable. Salvage is still hands down one of my personal favorite events.Salvage is the same as voidwatch. Fun and soul crushing at the same time. I did salvage with a relatively high number of friends and we didn't dupe so it took us all upwards of a year to finish our first sets. No one was enjoying themselves after the first 6 months but we were already up to our necks in the event so we kept going. It's a classic (outdated) MMO design strategy that expoilts human nature and practically every event Tanaka ever designed followed the same guidelines. "Well, I've already killed this thing 75 times. I must be due for a drop so I can't stop now!!."

[AyinDygra]

The reason most people were/are willing to do certain events that they don't like, is because they want the best possible gear. Any endgame event with incredibly low drop rates only serves its purpose of drawing people to continue doing the event as long as the gear obtained from it is the best.

The success of Salvage was that the Salvage sets were the best for certain jobs (at least certain pieces), so people went through the event, even if they didn't like it or its horrible drop rates, and the expense of creating the gear. The fact that the gear is no longer the best shows directly in the unpopularity of the event outside of mythic upgraders or those looking to make money off said upgraders. (For completion's sake, I still have several pieces of gear I'd like to finish, but nobody I know wants to do it at all, even to take out a force-popped NM to complete a piece.)

The success of Abyssea gear wasn't just how "easy" (I use the term loosely) it was to obtain gear, it was combined with the fact that people knew it wasn't the "ultimate" gear. The effort required and time spent was proportional to the expected performance of the gear and future prospects of its usefulness.

The problem with the current "new endgame" events, is that we still have another level cap increase on the horizon, and a whole new selection of "the best gear" close at hand. Who in their right mind would put themselves through events like that for a year or more with those drop rates for something that will only be the best for a limited time (for any significant period of time... longer than the time it took to obtain it) which they know they'll have to replace -- perhaps within a year!.

Most of the current rewards have extremely low drop rates and yet, they provide only small increases in performance, and we all expect better gear to be revealed at/after level 99. These "intermediate" endgame events need better drop rates for gear that is certainly not going to be the best.

Real "final" endgame events with real "ultimate" gear can have fairly low drop rates without overly angering most players, since this is what we've been conditioned to expect from FFXI's "random" drops.

However, for players who play the game for fun, not for work, an even better system for endgame should invoke feelings of accomplishment rather than the thrill of the lottery, knowing that by our effort and time spent, we're making progress little by little. This is why in-game point systems (and even the Magian Trials) are better than random drop systems for rewards, in my opinion - and while it may not keep a person with only one job leveled busy as long as they'd like, many players have multiple jobs, increasing the points they need to gear up each individual job.

Anyway, that's my analysis of the game's design moving forward, and hopefully the intended audience understands the reasoning presented.

[Vold]

I wonder how many of us here understand the difference between producer and director? There's too much presuming going on here. An innocent man may very well be catching flack he didn't earn.

I think the problem here is that devs don't play the game. Play the game Mr. Tanaka and company. For a few days. Hack yourselves up a level 95 character on one of the servers. Go to WoE for a few hours. Try out Voidwatch with a shout crew. Do whatever. When you come out of it with a full grown beard and a better understanding of the players view, if you feel you are pleased with the game then I'll back you for life, brothers(and possible sisters). If the creators of a game can stomach their creation then there's not much a customer can say or do at that point. It's either pay up or shut up.



But what about people who like huge mega shells, camping and endgame drama?

Yes those people exist, I'm one of them.Yet you fear drama enough to hide behind a lv1 mule. Sounds to me you're just playing devil's advocate here.

[Hayward]

The reason most people were/are willing to do certain events that they don't like, is because they want the best possible gear. Any endgame event with incredibly low drop rates only serves its purpose of drawing people to continue doing the event as long as the gear obtained from it is the best.

The success of Salvage was that the Salvage sets were the best for certain jobs (at least certain pieces), so people went through the event, even if they didn't like it or its horrible drop rates, and the expense of creating the gear. The fact that the gear is no longer the best shows directly in the unpopularity of the event outside of mythic upgraders or those looking to make money off said upgraders. (For completion's sake, I still have several pieces of gear I'd like to finish, but nobody I know wants to do it at all, even to take out a force-popped NM to complete a piece.)

The success of Abyssea gear wasn't just how "easy" (I use the term loosely) it was to obtain gear, it was combined with the fact that people knew it wasn't the "ultimate" gear. The effort required and time spent was proportional to the expected performance of the gear and future prospects of its usefulness.

The problem with the current "new endgame" events, is that we still have another level cap increase on the horizon, and a whole new selection of "the best gear" close at hand. Who in their right mind would put themselves through events like that for a year or more with those drop rates for something that will only be the best for a limited time (for any significant period of time... longer than the time it took to obtain it) which they know they'll have to replace -- perhaps within a year!.

Most of the current rewards have extremely low drop rates and yet, they provide only small increases in performance, and we all expect better gear to be revealed at/after level 99. These "intermediate" endgame events need better drop rates for gear that is certainly not going to be the best.

Real "final" endgame events with real "ultimate" gear can have fairly low drop rates without overly angering most players, since this is what we've been conditioned to expect from FFXI's "random" drops.

However, for players who play the game for fun, not for work, an even better system for endgame should invoke feelings of accomplishment rather than the thrill of the lottery, knowing that by our effort and time spent, we're making progress little by little. This is why in-game point systems (and even the Magian Trials) are better than random drop systems for rewards, in my opinion - and while it may not keep a person with only one job leveled busy as long as they'd like, many players have multiple jobs, increasing the points they need to gear up each individual job.

Anyway, that's my analysis of the game's design moving forward, and hopefully the intended audience understands the reasoning presented.

I'll agree and disagree with this post. There were many things I did not like about Classic Dynamis (low Relic armor drops, absurd monster distribution in certain places, and artificial rarity of 100 drops that discouraged the majority of players from even thinking about building Relic weapons/shields/instruments being chief among them), but I enjoyed the experience and the armor, for the most part, made it a worthwhile trip.

Were Dynamis anything close to being like Salvage, I'd have never even tried it. Repeating the same event over and over and getting nothing done is no more "hardcore" than running headfirst into a brick wall repeatedly and expecting it to crumble the next time around. The caliber of gear involved isn't and wasn't THAT important for me.

Any game should ultimately be played for fun and that goes for MMOs, too. Wanting to be the best at what you do in game is fine, but at what point does it come at the cost of enjoyment of the game itself? It has become more than obvious over the years that Mr. Tanaka's way of game development was counterproductive and gave players little to no reason to go for the best items (some of you can attribute this to laziness all you like, but I wonder if the reflections in your mirrors would believe that, much less anyone else). Abyssea was a reaction against this carrot-in-front-of-a-treadmill approach to gaming and people breathed a cathartic sigh of relief when Visions was released. The only people that were griping were those who rode bandwagon jobs and lost their excuses for excluding other jobs from various activities. Regrettably, S-E listened when Scars and Heroes arrived, but that's a different topic.

This update really makes me uneasy about the final stretch of this game. I've said that limiting scrolls that certain jobs need to event drops was an invitation to HNM LS people to jack up prices to the moon and beyond. I can only hope that S-E's ears aren't only tuned in favor of the professional endgamers who want the game to be only about them.

[Zaknafein]

Yet you fear drama enough to hide behind a lv1 mule.

I LOL'd.....

[Asymptotic]

. I've said that limiting scrolls that certain jobs need to event drops was an invitation to HNM LS people to jack up prices to the moon and beyond.

You need to be in a HNMLS to do HKCNM fights?

[Hashmalum]

To be honest, when I saw Tanaka's name on the test server announcement, I had hoped that it was an honorary type of thing--once a producer, always a producer, or something. Looking at the way that the game developed over his tenure, and even more so looking at the way FFXIV turned out at release, made me think that neither Tanaka nor anyone over him ever asked himself some key questions. Questions like "What did we do right, and what did we do wrong?" and "How has the MMO marketplace changed?" It seems as if there has been a serious failure to reflect and Tanaka has been associated with it.

Because of this association, I am less hopeful for the future than I was for the past few months, when I began seeing encouraging signs from the FFXI dev team. I am not saying "I'll quit because Tanaka is in charge"... but... once I've finished my near term and medium term goals, I'm going to be more skeptical and less hopeful about what's coming next. I won't be undertaking any longer-term projects, like an Empyrean, or leveling more jobs. And if I don't have a lot of hope for the game's future, I am likely to take another break from playing (and paying) while waiting to see what's next, instead of simply assuming it's likely to be worth sticking around to see.

[Atomic_Skull]

Yes, completely aware of that as well.

Have you also noticed how few scrolls we've gotten with 90+ people spamming WoE runs all day every day plus people shouting for the BC's? I don't even mean the 5-10 that have sold on some server's Auction Houses. At the rate we're going it will take well over a year just to get scrolls for only the mages that -currently- exist and need them. Sure, that keeps people going to the event. Sure, that makes WoE+BC's a "success". There is fallout to consider from this however.

For there to be a reason to do those BCNMs someone somewhere has to get screwed by supply and demand. Otherwise they are just useless content that nobody ever does.

Having a few 50-100k items drop isn't enough incentive for people to go out of their way and spend several hours to doing these BCNMs. They will instead say "screw that, it's not worth the time" and not do them.

[Atomic_Skull]

It's a classic (outdated) MMO design strategy that expoilts human nature and practically every event Tanaka ever designed followed the same guidelines. "Well, I've already killed this thing 75 times. I must be due for a drop so I can't stop now!!."

Using the skinner box method is highly effective at keeping people playing. Why would they switch to something less effective? If they aren't doing everything in their power to make as much money as possible for their shareholders then they aren't doing their job.

[Hayward]

Using the skinner box method is highly effective at keeping people playing. Why would they switch to something less effective? If they aren't doing everything in their power to make as much money as possible for their shareholders then they aren't doing their job.

No one sane--or at least honest with themselves--is buying that on Allakhazam, nor will it sell here. We're not lab rats, and the developers would do well not to play us as such if they hope to keep the game going.

[Sparthos]

Using the skinner box method is highly effective at keeping people playing. Why would they switch to something less effective? If they aren't doing everything in their power to make as much money as possible for their shareholders then they aren't doing their job.

I hope you're being facetious.

[Atomic_Skull]

No one sane--or at least honest with themselves--is buying that on Allakhazam, nor will it sell here. We're not lab rats, and the developers would do well not to play us as such if they hope to keep the game going.

I've seen what gets posted on Allakhazam in the BG thread on fail posts from that site. That really isn't saying much. There's a reason why every MMO in existence uses these methods.

[SpankWustler]

I've said that limiting scrolls that certain jobs need to event drops was an invitation to HNM LS people to jack up prices to the moon and beyond.

My level 91 Beastmaster, which I am leveling to 95 solely by throwing sheep at the contents of new Walk of Echoes confluxes over and over, is a HNM LS?

Now that the token lame joke is out of the way...

About the direction of the game as a whole, I have mixed feelings. I like a lot of the new battles and battle systems. As for the drop rates and distribution systems, however, they provide me with a burning desire to tie a chain around a toddler and wield him or her as a morning-star against my enemies.

I can totally understand the Salvage comparisons, even though it's a totally different kind of event. I had tons of fun in Salvage getting negative tons of drops.

[Sparthos]

Been said before more times than one cares to mention but...

POINT SYSTEMS. USE THEM. THEY WORK.

[Rearden]

WHAT IS EVERYONE YELLING ABOUT POINT SYSTEMS

[deces]

I thought Tanaka decided to fall on a sword.

[Insaniac]

Using the skinner box method is highly effective at keeping people playing. Why would they switch to something less effective? If they aren't doing everything in their power to make as much money as possible for their shareholders then they aren't doing their job.
Yes there always has to be some delay in MMOs between deciding you want something and getting the thing you want. Tanaka takes it to a level that drives more customers away than it keeps playing. He also uses systems with no promise that you will EVER, even if you play for 10 years, get the thing you want if you get unlucky. Like Sparthos said. Point systems work. They can be huge grinds and people will still do them because they can see the progress instead of the mounting level of fail (aka 0/200+ on the drop you want). In VW you can kill a T3/4 100+ times and still be no closer to your goal than you were on kill 1. -1% drop rates on anything need to gtfo. I don't care what MMO you are playing. People need to see a light at the end of a tunnel for serious grinds to actually work anymore.

[saevel]

Using the skinner box method is highly effective at keeping people playing. Why would they switch to something less effective? If they aren't doing everything in their power to make as much money as possible for their shareholders then they aren't doing their job.

Skinner's box's have proved to be highly immoral when applied to human beings. Skinner designed his experiments as a method to train and program animals to do specific behaviors and to experiment with how they reacted. When put into real life practice they only work until the creature being trained (that's you) realized it's being coerced and manipulated, then they tend to rebel / walk away. Using the gamblers fallacy (I must win eventually) is what Tanaka FFXI was all about, it tried to get you addicted the same way people get addicted to gambling.

And while all MMO's use some form of randomized time / reward ratio, most successful ones have a set method of progress, you ~know~ your moving forward. FFXI under Tanaka had you have absolutely forward progress, Salvage and VWNM are prime examples of this. You can keep throwing hours and hours, every moment of free time you have, at these events and get absolutely nothing. The only thing keeping you going is the rush and addiction to the feeling that you ~might~ get something and the cognitive dissonance that takes place to prevent you from walking away.

When Tanaka was "busy" with FFXIV (lets get real, someone else was direction FFXI while he screwed up FFXIV) this game become immensely fun and actually started to gain subscribers back. Abyssea actually rewarded you for time invested, it was a tangable and countable reward not subject to an extremely arbitrary RNG. Tanaka's abyssea would have you require 500 Briarus helms with a 25% drop rate, or 50 helms with a 5% drop rate. Same with Sobek skins, except all three KI's would be from timed spawned NM's with a 10~60 min timer. You can see this with the Magian system, everything has a nice predictable growth rate / requirements until Tanaka took charge again, then it's a sudden wall of "WTF". Ridiculous requirements for very small incremental gain.

Anyhow Tanaka = VERY VERY BAD for any MMO.

[noodles355]

Ah, hello there. Good to see you're blaming everything you like and dont like in the loot systems in the game on one man without any proof of how much involvement he did or didn't have on them.
Guilty until proven innocent? Glad you're not running the justice system in my country.

[Veigar]

Players don't know what they want. They're going to be biased toward "make it easier", but when they finally get what they want, they realize what they were asking for was a pointlessly easy, dumbed-down mess with no depth to redeem it.

LOL @ anyone calling for a point system. Because that has worked so well for WoW. Btw, Blizzard is reporting substantial stagnation (WotLK) and losses (Cataclysm) with this "easier is better" model-- with the point system greatly attributing to that model. According to the investor conference call, 650k subs lost Q1, another 300k lost in Q2, and further losses expected for Q3. At the end of the day, you just want visual confirmation of something like a typical member of the current ADD generation.

When there's nothing to aspire to, people have no reason to stick around. WoW is lucky it was able to ride off of the success of vanilla and most of TBC for so long. It can weather those kinds of losses, FFXI can't.

[Sparthos]

Players don't know what they want. They're going to be biased toward "make it easier", but when they finally get what they want, they realize what they were asking for was a pointlessly easy, dumbed-down mess with no depth to redeem it.

LOL @ anyone calling for a point system. Because that has worked so well for WoW. Btw, Blizzard is reporting substantial stagnation (WotLK) and losses (Cataclysm) with this "easier is better" model-- with the point system greatly attributing to that model. According to the investor conference call, 650k subs lost Q1, another 300k lost in Q2, and further losses expected for Q3. At the end of the day, you just want visual confirmation of something like a typical member of the current ADD generation.

When there's nothing to aspire to, people have no reason to stick around. WoW is lucky it was able to ride off of the success of vanilla and most of TBC for so long. It can weather those kinds of losses, FFXI can't.

So your solution is to simply stick with the "grind to infinity" model that was FFXI pre-Abyssea.... yeah no. Im sure you know that XI subs plummeted because there was "nothing to look forward to" simply because the game became endless grinds to nowhere and SE abandoned resources to the game.

Point systems don't have to be handouts and having a goal to work towards trumps being subject to the random lootpools that hand out drops on a whim.

Honestly, the only reason SEs returned to this model is because the development team is so small that they fall back on the terrible droprates to kill time till the next patch. If this is the case, it'd be much better to simply place items like say... the Ephemeron (Aellos HQ drop) at 250k points where a successful kill rewards 1500 max.

Currently no one wants to do Voidwatch because the only drops you're getting are random logs or ores.

[Insaniac]

When there's nothing to aspire to, people have no reason to stick around.
Aspiring to beat the odds on a .02% drop rate? That's stupid. Aspirations should involve more effort than blind luck.

[Kimble]

Honestly its simple what players want but they will never get it because there is no way to make it work.

They want everything to be easy for them to get, but hard for everyone else to get.

[Insaniac]

Honestly its simple what players want but they will never get it because there is no way to make it work.

They want everything to be easy for them to get, but hard for everyone else to get.Wut? I just want to be rewarded for my effort and I want to have fun while putting that effort forth. I think that's what most people want.
Of course you can't sustain a game with events that have a 95-100% chance to drop the item someone wants but you don't have to resort to events like Voidwatch where there's a high probability you will NEVER get what you want and an even higher probability that what you want will drop to someone who doesn't want it.

[Phen]

Ah, hello there. Good to see you're blaming everything you like and don't like in the loot systems in the game on one man without any proof of how much involvement he did or didn't have on them.
Guilty until proven innocent? Glad you're not running the justice system in my country.

The head position has responsibility for everything below it, that is how organizations work. If the battle system is glitched, producers responsibility. Quest, Craft, Drop rate, Balance-- it all falls on the guy at the top for not having those below them do their job correctly.

[noodles355]

The head position has responsibility for everything below it, that is how organizations work. If the battle system is glitched, producers responsibility. Quest, Craft, Drop rate, Balance-- it all falls on the guy at the top for not having those below them do their job correctly.What's your point? Why are people blaming him only for the things they don't like? He was still producer throughout all the content that everyone liked, and you can not prove either way how much input he had or didn't have on that content.

[Runespider]

What's your point? Why are people blaming him only for the things they don't like? He was still producer throughout all the content that everyone liked, and you can not prove either way how much input he had or didn't have on that content.

What do you want, a written confession?

While he was heavily invovled in FFXIV FFXI changed as if from night and day(to the point mass numbers of old players came back and started having fun), shortly after he is fired from the other project FFXI goes back to the old ways.

He was working on FFXIV and made such a laughable mess of it the company fired him from the project and he took the entire load of the game being crap on his shoulders, you think now he moved back to this game and it's "coincidentally" going back to shit that's all forgotten?

We are getting mass reductions in budget, crappy updates, old horrendous time sinks, old "you need a ls" mentallity. Abyssea FFXI was a success and it's being ignored due to cheapness and idiocy.

[Neisan_Quetz]

People forgot about old spawn times on timed NMs inside already it seems.

[noodles355]

What do you want, a written confession?You say that as a joke, but the sad thing is you have no way to prove either way without such proof. So shut up about it all being Tanaka's fault. And I'll state it again because I'm sure you'll love to jump to this conclusion: I have never stated either that it was nothing to do with Tanaka, nor have I stated that Tanaka was massively involved with abyssea. You know why I haven't argued that? Because I can't, I have no proof. And neither can you argue the counter that he had no involvement with Abyssea, and is calling all the shots now. For the record, that idea of "he was massively involved with abyssea" and "he had n othing to do with voidwatch" is not my opinion on the matter - don't think that it is. During this I have been careful to keep my own opinion on who had how much involvement with what to myself. Do you know why? Because what I believe is irrelevant, and there's no way to prove it. You should learn to do the same.

The content you don't like, you blame on him. Without proof of his involvement. When there is content you do like, you deny that he had any involvement. Again, without any proof.

Feel free to blame the dev team, for things you don't like, and praise them for things you like, that is of course normal. But don't go around trying to flame and blame everything you don't like on one guy, when you have zero proof that he had any more or less involvement on the things you like as the things you don't like.

[scaevola]

Honestly its simple what players want but they will never get it because there is no way to make it work.

They want everything to be easy for them to get, but hard for everyone else to get.


Which is, of course, why World of Warcraft is such a resounding critical and commercial failure.


Man, what is it with these forums giving me all these WoW lay-ups today? Is it always like this and I just never noticed?