Klimaform as SCH sub

[Cuelebra]

Kaustra/Embrava arnt available but as whm/sch i can cast Klimaform as well as AoE it to party members.... this isnt really fair as its the AF weapon to SCH. Its bad enough main jobs get access to weather spells and full benefits of light/dark arts but now magic acc from af weapon.

should grant SCH affliatus solace/misery if ur gonna do that.

[Cljader1]

SE should give sch tier II Klimaform once tier I became subable, thats what they did with rdm's refresh...as soon as refresh became subable rdm immediately got refresh 2...this should be no different, also on another note sch's need a healing helix although embrava is kinda like that isnt it

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I already mentioned this, SE just ignored. It appears they themselves seem to forget AF is meant to be specific to the job only.


SE should give sch tier II Klimaform once tier I became subable, thats what they did with rdm's refresh...as soon as refresh became subable rdm immediately got refresh 2...this should be no different, also on another note sch's need a healing helix although embrava is kinda like that isnt it

Refresh wasn't RDM's AF, that was a sword. So while Refresh II made sense, Klimaform should have just been straight out blocked.

[Neisan_Quetz]

So should have Convert by that basis.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

So should have Convert by that basis.

Not really, again it was NOT an artifact weapon (for which a quest needed to be completed) it's a natural JA.

It should have been weakened for /RDM but that's another topic.

[Sotek]

Why does anyone give a shit? People complain at Adloquium being a crap waste of MP, Klimaform is pretty much exactly the same at this point in the game, magic accuracy is a complete joke now. It's only worth casting on Scholar because Scholar can equip Savant's Loafers +2 and get an extra 10% base damage, which practically gives Scholar tier 2 weather, so while I'm at it maybe I should tell people to stop asking for tier 2 weather.

Giving Scholar White Mage abilities because everyone /Scholar can get Klimaform is probably one of the dumber suggestions you could have made even if this was an issue. White Mage gets nothing out of Klimaform and Black Mage hardly gets anything. The job that would benefit the most (actually the only job that benefits) is Red Mage and we've already got practically everything they have (Sublimation and Convert, a Composure Stratagem that isn't limited to yourself, their new ability in armor form, etc.).

[Siiri]

Yeah, as someone who thinks Scholar is actually over powered and does not understand why SE keeps buffing it, I will say as a white mage and black mage I could care less about klimaform. I will never ever cast it.

As for accessioning it, talk about a waste. My 2 charges when I am subbing sch on white mage are for penury cure 5 and accession stoneskin or regen 4.

[Scuro]

Honestly Klimaform should be SCH only, granted I think the duration is grabage imo, but its still an AF weapon, and that should still be exclusive only.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You can have my AF if that's the case. and my Whm's. and my War's. and Rng's.

[Merton9999]

This is reminding me of that "give SCH Retrace" thread, in that it falls into the category of I couldn't care less.

The concept that Klimaform shouldn't be allowed logically when subbed because it's AF1 is just as solid of an argument as saying it should be allowed because it's a spell, since no spells are currently locked on subjobs. Kaustra and Embrava are the first technical exceptions, but since TR is required they're not really exceptions based on the published requirements.

In the end though I care as much about the logic as I care about the availability. I like the fact that SCH got a useful spell as a AF1 instead of an instantly forgettable weapon, imo they should make as much out of it as possible, including allowing it to be used by other mains who clearly completed the same quest for it.

As far as brokenness, once convert and refresh became subbable there's really nothing that should be exempt from subjobs. RDM has a lot more to complain about than SCH does with Klimaform. As stated, I'll never use it on WHM or BLM, but I am considering 2 minutes of more accurate enfeebles with Spotaneity + Klimaform.

What I am in favor of, as always, is progression to a job's unique spells and abilities. Just as I want tier 2 weather for SCH, I'd like an enhanced Klimaform effect or Klimaform II for SCH main. I think that's the real issue here. Savant's Loafers are a good start, but I'll vote for additional duration for SCH main and would like a single party target white magic version that can be accessioned that raises storms to tier 2.

[Ank]

I agree that as the questable af weapon it makes sense for klimaform to be sch only. Arguing over it is silly, it doesn't rightly matter how useful it is or is not, or if its a spell or not. Hell the real argument should be to turn blm, rdm, brd, etc af weapons into marginally useful spells as well.

But who really cares? Macc isn't really a problem for anyone right now, and blm already has ES if it needs macc. The duration is so short and recast is so long that I barely even remember to use it as a sch main with empyrean feet, so if someone levels sch and goes through the quest finds a use for it, I don't care.

[Siiri]

LOL, my sch is 50 for sub job purposes (dinged to 50 before party broke or something), and personally have not bothered to get klimaform.

[Mirage]

Is there actually any situations where I as a whm95/sch will ever need, or be asked to use klimaform? I don't have it, and I've never noticed anyone commenting on that.

[Economizer]

Is there actually any situations where I as a whm95/sch will ever need, or be asked to use klimaform?

During Dynamis for Manifestation Sleep? I don't think that would make it even match an ES Sleepga from a WHM/BLM so you really have to go out on a limb. Most of White Mage's other spells are either usually accurate enough with Light Arts and gear that the extra accuracy isn't going to make or break anything. Currently the main usage seems to be to make Scholars with a bad sense of pride get angry (Aurorastorm me or else I start casting your AF spell once every three minutes! Ooo it is so useful to someone /SCH I'm burning you so hard right now!).

The pride over the AF weapon thing is definitely misplaced, because you are basically trying to violate basic gameplay mechanics to keep your pride (sub usable spells are never restricted, only nerfed) when jobs that actually have a reason to be prideful of their spells haven't kept their monopolies either. Further, if the game was remade today, I'd expect a fair amount of the AF quests to be spells, like (maybe) Cura, Refresh, Warp II. Maybe even Dark Knight would have the same with Absorb-TP.

Most of the AF weapons are fairly useless the second you get them or are less then five levels later, so if anything, SCH's AF doesn't fit the trend of AF weapons, so thus, gets to be the exception. Who knows? Maybe people will like the story of the AF quest from Scholar enough that they start to level the job more.

[Ank]

Thanks for drawing that line in the sand again about usability and exceptions.

[Raksha]

As of now klimaform isn't particularly useful, but if monsters start becoming resistant to magic it will start looking better and better.

Subbable klimaform is better for RDM than anyone else imo. with composure buffs it'll last a while (EDIT: does composure stack with klimaform?).

I dont mind klimaform being subbable really, seems like a fair trade for convert.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

ffx
As of now klimaform isn't particularly useful, but if monsters start becoming resistant to magic it will start looking better and better.

Subbable klimaform is better for RDM than anyone else imo. with composure buffs it'll last a while (EDIT: does composure stack with klimaform?).

I dont mind klimaform being subbable really, seems like a fair trade for convert.

Yeah, it appears Klimaform lasts as long as the recast under Composure.

[Raksha]

ffx

Yeah, it appears Klimaform lasts as long as the recast under Composure.

GG, SE.

10char

[TimeMage]

And what? Sure, nice for RDM to get some extra macc for certain enfeebles, but honestly... It's not gamebreaking at all. I'll be happy to see trigger a difficult to land enfeeble in VW if a RDM uses it.

If they increase the duration of Klimaform, we'll be much more benefitted. after all, more Klimaform means more 10% extra damage nukes.

[Jamesy]

i believe the whole issue with this is people are mad i certainly am Klimaform was our "artifact weapon" notice how i put that in quotes? under se logic artifact weapons were intended for job specific use example you don't see a dancer equipping Paper Knife or a thief using a war hoop. under those circumstances it isn't logical or fair for square enix to allow any job to /sch and gain benefits from our artifact weapon.

p.s. camate i hope you're reading this because it should be brought up with the dev team.

oh and by the way imo i don't care if people think its a fair trade or should be allowed for other jobs to sub klimaform is an "Artifact Weapon" and should be treated as such so that only a scholar can use it.
it's not a job ability or a spell you gain through leveling its gained via quest and in the scholar artifact line which means it should have the same requirements as any job specific piece where its has to be your main job to use it.

[Mirage]

as if any of the artifact weapons were actually game breakingly good anyway. No one cares that they can't use the war af axe, and no one would care if they could either.

[Jamesy]

as if any of the artifact weapons were actually game breakingly good anyway. No one cares that they can't use the war af axe, and no one would care if they could either.

again mirage i'm going to give you response since you can't comprehend apparently. i never said it was game breaking, but in itself it goes against artifact rules and should be changed unless square enix wants to give scholar a tier II version of the spell.

[Mirage]

So what? What if I just don't care about the af rules? What if it doesn't go against rules at all because the rules have always been that "whatever spell the main job gets, you get it when subbing it as long as the level is sufficient".

You're the one claiming spells should follow the same rules as weapons, when no other spell does this.

[Ank]

People will argue anything won't they.

[Mirage]

I love arguing, even the times I lose. It's like mental exercise.

[Raksha]

I love arguing, even the times I lose. It's like mental exercise.

Me too.

It might have been best to not make it available to /sch to begin with, but now that the cat is out of the bag nerfing it is not the answer. Once again SE has made their bed, now they have to lie in it.

Arguing about it now isnt going to do much.

[Merton9999]

again mirage i'm going to give you response since you can't comprehend apparently. i never said it was game breaking, but in itself it goes against artifact rules and should be changed unless square enix wants to give scholar a tier II version of the spell.

You have two "rules" here that could have been stated before Klimaform reached sub levels. One is that no AF1 can be subbed. One is all spells can be subbed. Klimaform had to break one of these rules.

How do you figure out which one it should break? Well, for me, the fact that the SCH AF1 is a spell means it has already been going against artifact rules since 2007. It seems a perfectly logical next step to say that it's going to continue to follow rules for spells instead of rules for artifacts.

Again, though, I think this is not really a case of logic, it's a case of people feeling slighted, then trying to use logic to back up a pure emotional reaction. The real issue is that the 75-95 run has a lot of missteps in something a lot of people generally agree on - job-specific spells should be more powerful in the hands of the main job than in a subjob. Because of this, I'd much rather continue to suggest that SE make a Klimaform II or raise the potency if Klimaform for SCH main. I feel the same way about this as I do for Gravity for RDM main, and several other such examples.

[Sotek]

SE already enhanced Klimaform for Scholar main, it's quite literally double weather (I don't know how SE worked out 25% is double 10%, but whatever) for Scholar with Empyrean feet. They don't need to do anything else to it for Scholar apart from the increased duration which they've already confirmed; though maybe I'm the only person who currently manages to bring its recast equal to its duration.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

SE already enhanced Klimaform for Scholar main, it's quite literally double weather (I don't know how SE worked out 25% is double 10%, but whatever) for Scholar with Empyrean feet. They don't need to do anything else to it for Scholar apart from the increased duration which they've already confirmed; though maybe I'm the only person who currently manages to bring its recast equal to its duration.

How? The recast cap is still 50% last I heard.

[Sotek]

Alacrity is applied after recast through Fast Cast/etc. So if you cap recast on Klimaform at 50% (90 seconds), Alacrity is going to bring it down another 50% (45 seconds). Though I was using Lv.75 gear (and not particularly good Lv.75 gear), I don't actually think I ever got the recast down to or below 60 seconds, but it was certainly close.

Just went and tested it, 1.12 recast without Haste (in an event I'd probably ask for Haste), so I'd say it's certainly possible, considering that's with Lv.75 cap gear. It's certainly not practical - for nuking you don't even need to keep Klimaform on full time anyway - but it is possible. Completely redundant argument though, since as I say, SE has confirmed they'll be increasing the duration, in which case it is absolutely something you can keep up full time, it will be a 90 second duration at worst and you can achieve that recast with Alacrity alone.

[Raksha]

Alacrity is applied after recast through Fast Cast/etc. So if you cap recast on Klimaform at 50% (90 seconds), Alacrity is going to bring it down another 50% (45 seconds). Though I was using Lv.75 gear (and not particularly good Lv.75 gear), I don't actually think I ever got the recast down to or below 60 seconds, but it was certainly close.

Just went and tested it, 1.12 recast without Haste (in an event I'd probably ask for Haste), so I'd say it's certainly possible, considering that's with Lv.75 cap gear. It's certainly not practical - for nuking you don't even need to keep Klimaform on full time anyway - but it is possible. Completely redundant argument though, since as I say, SE has confirmed they'll be increasing the duration, in which case it is absolutely something you can keep up full time, it will be a 90 second duration at worst and you can achieve that recast with Alacrity alone.

I thought alacrity didnt stack with fast cast/haste gear. I remember one of the dev Q&As mentioning that they would look into making it stack.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11491-Job-Adjustments-manifesto-Discussion?p=158109&viewfull=1#post158109

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I just checked. SCH/RDM used Alacrity, Recast 1.30 seconds.
SCH/WHM with Haste up: recast 1.30 seconds.

[Raksha]

I just checked. SCH/RDM used Alacrity, Recast 1.30 seconds.
SCH/WHM with Haste up: recast 1.30 seconds.

While I appreciate the test, it's possible haste gives you the same -recast that /rdm sub does, so would need to check that. (just do a klimaform /whm WITHOUT haste.)

Minor nitpick.

[Economizer]

The only way I know how to positively affect Celerity/Alacrity bonus currently is the weather effect on the Argute Loafers (10% bonus) but at best that would put it slightly above the duration of Klimaform. Although, if you are doing other things between that time, it won't kill you to lose coverage for a few seconds. Still, the duration could probably use work.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

While I appreciate the test, it's possible haste gives you the same -recast that /rdm sub does, so would need to check that. (just do a klimaform /whm WITHOUT haste.)

Minor nitpick.

Done. SCH/WHM no Haste recast: 1.30

As mentioned you can get it lower with "Argute Loafers" which take it to 1.12 recast. So it is close, but nothing but the boots effect Celerity or Alacrity.

[Delvish]

I thought alacrity didnt stack with fast cast/haste gear. I remember one of the dev Q&As mentioning that they would look into making it stack.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11491-Job-Adjustments-manifesto-Discussion?p=158109&viewfull=1#post158109

That is a very good point, and looking into it further it seems slow does not affect it either. As such, your tests would prove that currently your recast under slow would still be 1:30, barring boots. Personally, I could accept the slow penalty if I could get the Fast Cast and Haste bonus as well.

[Eric]

That is a very good point, and looking into it further it seems slow does not affect it either. As such, your tests would prove that currently your recast under slow would still be 1:30, barring boots. Personally, I could accept the slow penalty if I could get the Fast Cast and Haste bonus as well.
The only problem I could possibly see with this is in situations where you have to raise-ga and you have aura slow on you or something. Conversely, fast cast would be amazing for this. I can't really think of any other spells where the extended recast timer would make a huge difference. Then again, I've been too busy to play the game for the past 2 weeks or so.

[Nala]

honestly though shouldn't klimaform be a stance? not that i think they should change things at this point but considering how sch can function as a DD that skill chains with spells they are like a magical martial artist of sorts no? hence the Klima (climate?) form (stance?) though they already have light and dark arts for a stance type.

[Mirage]

Form in this context probably means more something like "shape" than "stance". Shaping the weather to whatever they want.