Current Empy 95 Price [Archive] - FINAL FANTASY XI Forum

Gokku

09-26-2011, 01:11 PM

Trying to get a running total of what heavy iron plates are going for on all severs in hope that SE will see how ridiculous it is.

Ive seen 3 Bazaars on carbuncle with them 5 mil , 5mil , 2mil

Carbuncle Total : 7,500,000,000gil - 3,000,000,000 gil

100k a plate = 150 mil for a 95 *still a little over the top but mythic says hi*
50k = 75 mil * about the price of a relic atm so not to bad would make it rare enough*
20k = 30 mil * serious investment not to insane for even an casual player to get*
10k or lower * 95's..... 95's everywhere would be a dream but never going to happen*

Requires between 4-8 accounts with MAX gil. Estimated RL value of at least $56,583 USD , to $141,457.5 USD.

Unless Plates Drop from all content *ala kindred crests style* to the point were plates are costing 100k max to about 50k decent , and a low of 10-20k each. it is completely unreasonable to expect and player to ever complete a level 95 Empy's weapon.

2nd comparison, Lets say you have a Linkshell who does 3 T3 VW EVERY day with 18 people never lose a kill and get a 50% drop rate on plates. 165 kills of T3 Void watch lets avg 30 mins a kill since t3 can be nasty 82.5 HOURS of voidwatch to complete.

If you spot any in your servers bazaars please list the price and what server.
i think i mathed this right... i prob didnt.

Leonlionheart

09-26-2011, 01:20 PM

And people complained about mythics.

Good news, 90 Emps will probably always be better than the other options for most jobs, excluding maybe drk(reilc), sam(relic), and drg(mythic, and probably relic too since rhongo sucks major c**k).

Gokku

09-26-2011, 01:26 PM

[ If people Actually post i will use this space to keep a running High / low / Avg log of the price]
*names Removed for privacy*
Ragnarok.[Source: Guildwork Client] PM 100,000
Fenrir.[Source: Guildwork Client] PM 300,000
Cerberus.[Source: Guildwork Client] PM 500,000
Shiva.[Source: Guildwork Client] PM 199,000
Ragnarok.[Source: Guildwork Client] PM 1,500,000
Ragnarok.[Source: Guildwork Client] PM 950,000
Ragnarok.[Source: Guildwork Client] PM 1,000,000
Shiva.[Source: Guildwork Client] PM 200,000
Asura.[Source: Guildwork Client] PM 200,000
Valefor.[Source: Guildwork Client] PM 1,000,000
Asura.[Source: Guildwork Client] PM 399,999
Ragnarok.[Source: Guildwork Client] PM 500,000

Current GW listing as of 11:12 10/1/2011
Avg Price across all listed servers: 737416 gil *per plate*
Avg Price to complete based on all servers: 1,106,124,000 *1.1 Billion Gil*

Avg Per Sever : * from AH , and FF info bazaar listings per sever* if someone can tell me what the kanji is for metal plates i can check the Japanese side of Bazzar's (http://ff11info.com/)

Bahamut * no Listings*
Min:
Avg:
Max:

Shiva *2 listings*
Min: 199,000
Avg:199,500
Max:200,000

Phoenix
Min:
Avg:
Max:

Carbuncle * 1 listing found*
Min: 500,000
Avg:500,000
Max:500,000

Fenrir * 1 listing*
Min: 300,000
Avg:300,000
Max:300,000

Sylph
Min:
Avg:
Max:

Valefor
Min: 1,000,000
Avg:1,000,000
Max:1,000,000

Leviathan
Min:
Avg:
Max:

Odin
Min:
Avg:
Max:

Quetzalcoatl
Min:
Avg:
Max:

Siren
Min:
Avg:
Max:

Ragnarok * listings 5 atm*
Min: 100,000
Avg: 810,000
Max:1,500,000

Cerberus * 1 listing*
Min: 500,000
Avg:500,000
Max:500,000

Bismarck
Min:
Avg:
Max:

Lakshmi
Min:
Avg:
Max:

Asura * 2 listings*
Min: 200,000
Avg:299,999
Max:399,999

Current Cheapest Server : Shiva
Current Price to Complete on Shiva : 299,250,000

Yugl

09-26-2011, 01:33 PM

500k each (4x).

Byrth

09-26-2011, 02:21 PM

I've seen a few for 100k, 200k, and a lot for 500k. I'm going to start buying at 100k, because I don't think the price will ever drop below that.

The only thing I can think of is that the next update will include more sources (additional WoE chambers, more voidwatch NMs, etc.) but as it stands this quest is almost as daunting as Alexandrite was when mythics were released.

Monchat

09-26-2011, 02:27 PM

I'd buy anything below 200k myself. You say in the Op that 75 M is the price of relics? it requires about 175, 100coins which is pretty much 175M. Farming your own plates is not practical, because voidwatch sucks, the drop rate (50%?) sucks, and you are limited with voidstones.

Greatguardian

09-26-2011, 02:29 PM

Vortex

09-26-2011, 02:45 PM

This probably has to wait since it's new everyone will price them as high as they possibly can, seen people bazzar them for 1 mil EACH on cerb (this person is obviously retarded), this massive greed dies down in time after new content is released, but yea, need other ways of obtaining these or a 95 empy won't ever see the light of day.

Elexia

09-26-2011, 02:45 PM

And people complained about mythics.

Mythic weapons is a whole different annoying beast. Guess Emps had to cost something other than time eventually.

Suirieko

09-26-2011, 02:59 PM

You know, when SE said that they would be balancing the Mythic and Relic completion rate to the Empyrean, I thought that they would adjust the drop rate of currencies and Alexandrites, and I had a feeling that I Would be wrong, and I was really, REALLY hoping that I was right.

IF this is SE's answer to "balance it out" it's a wrong answer. The drop rate of heavy plates are horrendous, The rate of getting ONE STAGE done is almost entirely the same rate as getting a whole friggin weapon empyrean and mythic stage done. It's ridiculous and completely unreasonable.

Also, there hasn't even been a record of someone selling Heavy Plates in Phoenix as of yet. That's pretty damn bad.

And people complained about mythics.

Good news, 90 Emps will probably always be better than the other options for most jobs, excluding maybe drk(reilc), sam(relic), and drg(mythic, and probably relic too since rhongo sucks major c**k).

And that is why that this is not an answer to "Balance things out" period. It makes no sense to make an (and very much slight) upgrade stage to be incredibly daunting just to 'balance out' with the mythic. It's ridiculous.

I WAS REALLY hoping that the Heavy Metal would be like Kindred Crests/Seals drop rate, but only in abyssea, given the number of how many machina mobs (Especially in Scars) are around. But this is completely unreasonable.

Symbiote

09-26-2011, 03:00 PM

Just a thought here. We've seen Silver Mirrors dropping from older VWs (city paths) and early Jeuno tiers. Who is to say that the heavy plates won't be just that if VW continues into the 96-99 range for CoP, ToAU areas?

I may be wrong, but it is food for thought. If I am right, I expect a huge black and white cookie over-nighted to my house.

brayen

09-26-2011, 04:35 PM

I dont see why people think this is fine. Comparing prices with coins is a bit silly considering currently you can make away with a good portion of coins each day form dynamis with 2-3 ppl, woidwatch on the other hand you are looking at large scale event (need as many as possible for staggers) with the hopes of maybe 1 plate. It doesnt help that voidwatch as a whole has poor lotting system as a whole. 6 rare/ex drop to mule vs 0 for the actual player. The real kicker is that with the 25% ws boost and the recent 20% hidden 2.5-3 dmg on the last trial, you are looking at a mythic level trial for a lesser weapon in the near future. I am all for balance among these weapons, however the task of alexanderites and now plates, they have really turned it back to the 1year per relic age, and that is depressing as hell. Not to mention With VW and WoE drop rates they are going back to the 1 drop a week style development.

Either case i have yet to see a plate drop or find one in a bazaar, closes iv seen are die for the lesser empy which thsoe themselves were set at around 200-500k lol

MarkovChain

09-26-2011, 05:31 PM

Honestly I don't find this the least bit unexpected considering the vast majority of the feedback on these forums has been either Relic holders complaining about how easy Empyreans are or non-Relic holders complaining about how easy Empyreans are.

That said, 165 fights isn't as terrible as it sounds if we're talking an old-school Relic/Mythic class weapon, and you can always supplement this with bought plates (I'd never buy over 200k personally =/ I'd optimistically hope for the market to stabilize at 100). It definitely removed the casual player from the equation though, holy crap. Hopefully there's an ODD rate increase on these 95s, and there's something new in store for 99 versions. OTD would be pretty boss.

Edit: You're not really limited with voidstones. You can always buy Voiddust with cruor/ISP/CP, and you can even trade voiddust so you could buy voidstones from other people if you really wanted to.

Just a little something you forgot is that the 18 members of your ally want a plate because they either want it for clink-clink or for their one empy. In other words you are not looking at 165 fights but 165*18=nearly 3000 fights if you dont buy anything. This Is why the only way to get a level 95 weapon is to buy most of it. This why voidwatch is a triple fail event. The gear sucks. The fights have artificial difficulty or drop condition difficulty essentially based on the number of people. And beeing dedicated into voidwatch doesnt give you more chance at the level 95 empy. I mean someone that can play decently can definitely build more than 100k in 30 minutes, nevermind the fact that averaging 30 minutes per fight in unrealistic due to people failing at being ponctual or ready all at once for instance.

Runespider

09-26-2011, 05:33 PM

Square already knew how stupid this would be when they added it, they have staff that check out all this stuff and they picked that sadistic number on purpose. They either like the high number or they plan to lower it in the next update so everyone gushes over them with joy (wow Square your so awesome, you listen to us! :DD).

Honestly I don't find this the least bit unexpected considering the vast majority of the feedback on these forums has been either Relic holders complaining about how easy Empyreans are or non-Relic holders complaining about how easy Empyreans are.

This was done becaase they are are being sadistic and lazy again, not to appease relic owners. An 85 Emp blows a 95 relic out of the water, this does nothing to adress the balance between the weapons.

Alderin

09-26-2011, 05:39 PM

The biggest issue I personally see is time spent in farming these - not to mention the restriction that comes with voidstones.

Not sure the exact figure but people say it sits around a 20% drop rate - with capped alignment & TH.

Lets do the maths here - If you were to get a pouch running by these figures you are talking about 625 voidstones used per upgrade - that is assuming you get a pouch 20% of the time.

At this rate it will take approximately 1-2 years to farm enough plates required to do this solo.. (if my maths are correct.. it's getting late). This is also assuming you get capped alignment every kill - which happens most of the time but not *all* the time.

A little bit over the top? I believe so. Make pouches 100% drop with capped alignment and we will be happy.

The time spent does not equal reward in my opinion. For a few base DMG+, 3 atrribute+, and same delay - this hardly seems worth doing.

Kristal

09-26-2011, 06:38 PM

Complaining about people asking 5 mil for a plate is a bit bizar, considering it's a player's choice to put them up for that amount and it's a new item subject to the overpricing rage that happens every update.

As for the heavy metal plates, 1500 is a lot but keep in mind they can drop to everyone in the alliance (each has their own chest), you can also get a POUCH of heavy metal and they are tradable.

They will be in heavy demand for a while, so you might as well make a profit out of it now, then buy 10x as much back later.

Voidwatch is the new endgame, with parts III and IV still to come, which possible give even more chances for heavy metal to drop.

Incidently, does anyone know how the heavy metal plate is listed in inventory? I think it's "Heavy Metal", but I haven't seen a screenshot of it in inventory yet.

noodles355

09-26-2011, 07:04 PM

This why voidwatch is a triple fail event. The gear sucks.Yeah, a 15% Cure potency, 15% cure cast time body that rdm and sch can equip sucks. So does an Adaman Hauberk-1 with extra DA that mnk/thf/nin/etc can equip. And don't get me started on a damage taken-8% body piece that also converts 1.4% of damage taken to TP, that one is terrible.

Byrth

09-26-2011, 08:08 PM

My gripe with Voidwatch is less that the gear sucks and more that it's almost impossible to "target" a piece. For instance, I would give up every R/Ex drop in Voidwatch for Toci's Harness. With an LS and any other kind of loot system, that would be possible. The way it's set up, it isn't. On average, I'd have to do something like 35~70 Pil fights for a 50% chance of getting the body, and 0/100 is still entirely within the realm of possibility.

Is that going to drive the Heavy Metal market? Honestly probably not. The biggest problem with the Heavy Metal market is that you have to be in an alliance to do farm it, and putting together an alliance to pull in a few plates is a big PITA.

uptempo

09-26-2011, 08:22 PM

500k on Valefor though im pretty sure in a few weeks this price will drop down :D. Se will more than likely add new ways to get them aswell, as for the guy who said it costs 75 mil for a relic lol double that.

Vortex

09-26-2011, 08:36 PM

Yeah, a 15% Cure potency, 15% cure cast time body that rdm and sch can equip sucks. So does an Adaman Hauberk-1 with extra DA that mnk/thf/nin/etc can equip. And don't get me started on a damage taken-8% body piece that also converts 1.4% of damage taken to TP, that one is terrible.

Of course, if pchan dosn't want/need it, it sucks, where have you been?

Complaining about people asking 5 mil for a plate is a bit bizar, considering it's a player's choice to put them up for that amount and it's a new item subject to the overpricing rage that happens every update.

Most people are aware over pricing is a very common thing every update, but 5 mil a plate? even gill buyers aren't that retarded and they usually have no sense of value to what things cost. and anyone idiot who puts it up for that much deservers to die in a damn fire, if there is a word for beyond taking advantage.

Vold

09-26-2011, 09:09 PM

You know what I see here with this 1500 metal plate trial? I see SE throwing their arms up in defeat with relics/mythics because they don't want to rewrite their coding or whatever the hell is so hard and difficult about changing stats on 8/9/whatever year old items, and are just going with Empyreans being the new hardcore ultimate weapon. That's what I see when they want you to hunt down 1500 drops that are a super pain in the ass for drop rate. Good luck with just 500 people owning a lv95 in the next 5+ years.

Not that not owning a 95 and eventually a 99 will be the end of the world. But still. Even with a "high" drop rate it's going to take awhile to complete this trial. Most people I've seen to comment on the whole empyrean vs relic issue seem like they would be okay with empyrean weapons being better than relics if they were harder to obtain. They didn't seem to have any problems until they learned they can just team up with an alliance and speed through them. Well, now they are harder. Much harder. It might not be the base quest, but it still counts on the way to the 99 march. 90 alone is already a pretty big road block for most people. We saw the considerable difference in the census. Empyreans are getting harder with the 85 looking to be the casual version. Empyreans being the new hardcore weap of the bunch is sounding about right to me.

Also I guess it could come back to the whole idea that they are time sinking us to death on voidwatch because there is jack crap lined up for content anytime soon. Who knows. But I know not a damn soul is paying 5 mil for a plate. I haven't even seen one in a bazaar yet.

Erics

09-26-2011, 09:18 PM

Didn't relics get a major boost from 90 to 95 as well? I heard the 2-3x dmg proc rate was increased from about 8% to 20%. I am not sure, I am just going by what other relic owners told me. If that's the case, as easy as their trial was, our empy's aftermath better have an increased proc rate. 1,500 items, in my opinion, gives us a reason to say "Empys are just as hard as relics now." We deserve a hidden effect, additional effect, etc. That's just how I feel but oh well. :\ I am close to my 90 empyrean and started doing VW with my LS. Since then, I have yet to see a heavy metal plate be received by anyone in my LS....

uptempo

09-26-2011, 09:33 PM

Empyreans were incredibly overpowered at 85 and 90 of course they arn't going to get any more hidden boosts, that been said im sure this 1500 will get lowered or more places were the plates drop added in either a mini update or the next major one.

Neisan_Quetz

09-26-2011, 09:34 PM

Incredibly overpowered for... roughly ~5 jobs, in 3 add-ons? Aside from most of the weaponskills have horrid mods relic/mythic got a nice increase at 95, it isn't like at 75 were normal weapons were only slightly below them, short of having relic/mythic/emp I don't think any other weapon without a unique added effect comes close to them now (unless in mythic's case, you can't keep aftermath up or as mentioned above, the weaponskill is completely useless).

Rearden

09-26-2011, 11:16 PM

I'm just going to throw out that with COP Dyna release, farming an Empyrean in a Duo/Trio is now more time consuming and than farming a Relic to loan stage.

Relic takes more days, but not more effort.

Byrth

09-26-2011, 11:32 PM

Time required to farm:
Relic: At 100 currency per hour with some added time for attestation/fragment, Relics take about a week of playtime to complete. This is mostly done duo, so it's about 2 weeks playtime (~340 mahours unless you dualbox).

Empyrean: I've heard estimates as low as 3 Heavy Metal plates average per Tier 3/4 Jeuno path NM with capped lights and a full alliance. Assuming each fight takes 30 minutes (including gather time/etc), you're looking at 4,500 manhours (27 weeks playtime) to complete one Empyrean from 90 to 95. Even if you average 5 per Voidwatch NM, you're looking at 2,700 manhours (16 weeks playtime).

Mythic: If you average 70 Alexandrite per 90-minute run (which is high on the Alex and low on the time) with three people, you'd expect the Alexandrite stage of a Mythic to take about 2,000 manhours (11.5 weeks playtime).

Demand for the level 95 version:
Relic: They're still nice for some jobs, and a lot of people have "owning a relic" as one of their long-term goals.

Empyrean: Many people have level 85 versions. Fewer people have level 90 versions. There are still more level 90 Empyreans than relics and mythics combined. The demand is high even if people don't value the extra stats on the 95 Empyrean version purely because of how many Empyreans there are in circulation.

Mythic: DD-Mythic have long been seen as jokes. This perception really should have changed in the last few patches, and realistically now mythics are the best DD weapons for many jobs, but the demand is still relatively low due to the formidable requirements for the 75 version.

So yeah, the easiest level 95 "special" weapon to get by far is a relic. Empyreans take many more man hours to complete to 95 than Mythics, but Voidwatch is current endgame and Salvage is not. People would do Voidwatch even if Heavy Metal Plates don't drop there. People mostly farm Salvage for Alexandrite. The problem is actually going to be when Voidwatch is no longer endgame, because there's no way to lowman farm Heavy Metal Plates.

Monchat

09-26-2011, 11:47 PM

If I farm bastok I do 275 coins a run with 2+ mules. You should get more with cop since its possible to target JA only mobs and switch camps every 20 minutes. I tried buburimu and got ~70 during a 20min window of JA procs. So if everything is perfectly runing, say it takes total of 20 minutes to farm TEs+ total time to move to the next camps, you're looking at maybe 5x70=350 coins, but with 3 different types. In the end you'll have to sell some so idk if it is really "much" faster. Good if you need all three types really.

With that voidwatch crap I concluded that SE will just never succeed at balancing the game back.

Their solution to job balance is: come up with an event where you need the most variety of jobs to succeed ( VW's fail proc system). Right people will not complain that their josb sucks, because its needed to proc in VW... oh wait, it still sucks.

Their balance to relic vs mythic vs empyream: people expect them to lower mythic requirements, and boost relic's powers to empy's power. SE solution: make relic still suck, make mythic less suck, [ both beeing inferior to lv 85 empys in many cases...], make empy still #1 but give them a requirement 3x harder than mythic. lol.

Erics

09-27-2011, 12:02 AM

uptempo

09-27-2011, 12:04 AM

I think your kidding youself if you think they are going to get a boost the odd on them is from 30% to 50% depending on tp what do you want it to be 75-100 % lol.

Monchat

09-27-2011, 12:05 AM

The problem is actually going to be when Voidwatch is no longer endgame, because there's no way to lowman farm Heavy Metal Plates.

I think thats the problem. I honestly dont think people will spend more than a few months farming VW because of how terrible an event it is: first an event requiring 18 to succeed, not because the mobs are hard, but because they have instant death TP move ( thuse needing more than just one tank+ healer + few dds) and due to the bad proc system, and because the thing you are after will never drop with capped lights... Second the gear are sidegrades at best , in most case situational and totally not worth the effort, efect a few exceptions. For those reason people will switch focus soon and HMP will become rare. Just my opinion but I don't think people will do VW after the dynamis+2 armors are introduced [ here I'm optimistic and expect +2 to be good lol..].

No VW is not an elite event. No VW is not hard. The only difficulty in vw is gather 18 people with a half brain functionning. Throwing people and a mob was never anything hard. Players require "hard" content and SE came up with 18 man content, giving it parameters ( proc system) that nake low manning useless. They think hard= need more people. They could use their imagination and make hard- yet 6 manable- content, but they chose the easy way. I personally refuse to do anything with more than 6 people. The days of old dynamis LSes are over and they sucked. I don't want that back.

Erics

09-27-2011, 12:08 AM

I think your kidding youself if you think they are going to get a boost the odd on them is from 30% to 50% depending on tp what do you want it to be 75-100 % lol.

You need to read what I typed. I said "I want" I am not saying "they are."

EDIT: And isn't the odd a constant 30% TP just depends on how long it last?... I want proof before you start shouting "fake facts."

uptempo

09-27-2011, 12:08 AM

You need to read what I typed. I said "I want" I am not saying "they are."

Point still stands! What more do you want on them.

Monchat

09-27-2011, 12:09 AM

With all this said.. I really want empyreans to get a nice boost then ... As was mentioned, Empyrean Weapons were only overpowered in abyssea.. Go outside, They are no longer "the girl next door," in a bunny outfit.

Idk, Blade:hi, Victory smite and Ukon's fury are pure ownage even outside, and probably other. I do 2k+ victory smites when the next good WS, asuran fists, does 1~1.5k tops. that s +33% damg minimum. Not to mention the god mode aftermath.

Byrth

09-27-2011, 12:30 AM

I think thats the problem. I honestly dont think people will spend more than a few months farming VW because of how terrible an event it is: first an event requiring 18 to succeed, not because the mobs are hard, but because they have instant death TP move ( thuse needing more than just one tank+ healer + few dds) and due to the bad proc system, and because the thing you are after will never drop with capped lights... Second the gear are sidegrades at best , in most case situational and totally not worth the effort, efect a few exceptions. For those reason people will switch focus soon and HMP will become rare. Just my opinion but I don't think people will do VW after the dynamis+2 armors are introduced [ here I'm optimistic and expect +2 to be good lol..].

No VW is not an elite event. No VW is not hard. The only difficulty in vw is gather 18 people with a half brain functionning. Throwing people and a mob was never anything hard. Players require "hard" content and SE came up with 18 man content, giving it parameters ( proc system) that nake low manning useless. They think hard= need more people. They could use their imagination and make hard- yet 6 manable- content, but they chose the easy way. I personally refuse to do anything with more than 6 people. The days of old dynamis LSes are over and they sucked. I don't want that back.

This is pretty much entirely how I see it. In a year, the requirement would be impossible even if they lowered it to 150 Heavy Metal Plates. The only way that they're going to keep the supply up is adding other suppliers.

Also, it's not just that Voidwatch is difficult to lowman and get drops. It's that you need 18 people to get the maximum possible number of drops. If you cap lights with 8 people, you still only get ~50 items. If you cap lights with 18 people, you get ~110 items. If there's approximately a 5~10% chance of a pouch/single, Empyrean owners should want all the people opening chests that they can get even if they're just afking for the fight.

Edit: One more thing. If anything, we're incredibly lucky that Empyreans receive such a superficial upgrade going from 90 to 95. It means the competition for the Heavy Metal plates will be lower than it would be otherwise.

Taint2

09-27-2011, 12:30 AM

I gained a little faith when Asapanda (LSmate) got 12 Metal Plates yesterday while getting the clears for Zilart VW. While 1500 is a lot, its only a matter of time until you start seeing 95 emps. The JP community on Cerb does a very good job with VW, I'm sure we'll see some soon. Once the first couple 95s get done people will be more motivated.

uptempo

09-27-2011, 12:40 AM

You need to read what I typed. I said "I want" I am not saying "they are."

EDIT: And isn't the odd a constant 30% TP just depends on how long it last?... I want proof before you start shouting "fake facts."

You have a almace go test the damn thing you will see yourself nothing fake in what i stated.

Also i said it depends on tp in the first post the only ones with constant odd are relics not that its hard to keep your aftermath up.

MarkovChain

09-27-2011, 12:54 AM

Yeah, a 15% Cure potency, 15% cure cast time body that rdm and sch can equip sucks.

White mage, what is it ? It's faster to "get" and better with better gear potency /speed, and better spells. Enjoy your cure 4s.

Mahoro

09-27-2011, 01:17 AM

White mage, what is it ? It's faster to "get" and better with better gear potency /speed, and better spells. Enjoy your cure 4s.

Interesting. Your answer to "I want X gear" is "Get someone on Y job in your party." By that logic, nobody should be interested in ANY gear that gives less of a benefit than a COR, BRD, WHM, etc. in their party can give.

Your logic is not of this Earth.

Rearden

09-27-2011, 01:18 AM

Byrth, I would put the actual numbers closer to:

Relic: 145h farming to get to loan stage @100c/h (2-3box)

Emp: 168h to get to 90 stage on anything outside of LaTheine (For example, Ukonvasara)

Even if you pull it back to 85 stage where the weapons become useful, you're still looking at near equal time requirements.

The relic is going to take many weeks longer to complete than the Empyrean weapon, but in terms of total effort not so much.

MarkovChain

09-27-2011, 02:39 AM

Interesting. Your answer to "I want X gear" is "Get someone on Y job in your party." By that logic, nobody should be interested in ANY gear that gives less of a benefit than a COR, BRD, WHM, etc. in their party can give.

Your logic is not of this Earth.

And your philosophy is to use the the current jobs that don't suck (WHM) to farm gears to those that suck (SCH,RDM). In the end of the day, with better gear, sch is vastly inferior to WHM, period.

Mahoro

09-27-2011, 03:22 AM

And your philosophy is to use the the current jobs that don't suck (WHM) to farm gears to those that suck (SCH,RDM). In the end of the day, with better gear, sch is vastly inferior to WHM, period.

Ah, so I see where your twisted logic is going. You essentially want SE to delete the SCH and RDM jobs, because no other job should help them get gear.

Which other jobs do you want SE to delete? Do you want everyone in the game to be WAR, BLM, and WHM? Which jobs escape uscathed in your eyes Pchan?

Neisan_Quetz

09-27-2011, 03:34 AM

I hate to agree with Pchan but as it stands outside of Sch's 2hour there's little reason to bring Sch or Rdm to party events other than VW procs. And you can cast Embrava outside of party iirc, so you don't even need Sch in the party to benefit from Embrava.

Elexia

09-27-2011, 03:41 AM

Neisan_Quetz

09-27-2011, 03:42 AM

'For the hell of it' doesn't make either useful; I could bring PUP for the hell of it if I want but it's still not going to be a useful job.

Arcon

09-27-2011, 04:27 AM

If it's required I'll be SMN. But it's not the job I like to play the most, that's still PLD solo. And I want gear for it, no matter how useless it is to everyone else on the game.

A job being more or less useful has nothing at all to do with what you wanna gear or play. Why would you wanna gear WHM? Light Staff and Noble's and you're fine for 98% of the content.

It's not about the "smartest choice". People can be very well aware of the smartest choice, but that's not what a game is about. A game is about playing, about doing what's fun. If it's fun to build an elemental nuking set for PLD/SCH to you, then go ahead with it and invest as much as you want in it. Be WAR or THF or WHM only to events, it doesn't matter and has nothing to do with what you go to these events for.

Saying it's pointless to gear SCH is like saying it's pointless to play FFXI. You'd be right on both counts, but it doesn't make it any more relevant. Playing games isn't about having a point, it's about what's fun. I hate saying it, because it's usually only used by idiots trying to justify their no-haste setup, but then again, I am arguing with Pimpchan..

Malamasala

09-27-2011, 04:48 AM

'For the hell of it' doesn't make either useful; I could bring PUP for the hell of it if I want but it's still not going to be a useful job.

I think the definition of "useful" is that it improves the party to invite one rather than leave the spot empty. The opposite is useless, and means that even if you invited the job, the party wouldn't do better.

Usually when people say "useful" they mean "ultimate" or "the best" or "overpowered". That is why so few jobs are "useful".

Zumi

09-27-2011, 05:02 AM

Monchat

09-27-2011, 05:18 AM

Ah, so I see where your twisted logic is going. You essentially want SE to delete the SCH and RDM jobs, because no other job should help them get gear.

They already deleted RDM from the game, a long time ago, idk about sch but people say its as useless as rdm. Idk, people dont use rdm since the level cap increases 80+. Because they made WHM such a godly healer, and not only inside abyssea, because WHM also has access to so many auto refresh gear now, and convert.

They said they won't give rdm cure V and give ways to cure through regening or something. Did you see anything that improve SCH and RDM cures from 90-95? no, they gave rdm a double attack spell only available for self-target. This is pretty much, for any RDM fan out there, a clear statement they do not care about the job. They dont care. The only thing really useful about RDM is refreshII, maybe dia3. but diaII si accessible to any mage subbing rdm or whm, and dia2>dia3 is an improvement but nothing spectacular (10% def reduction versus 15%), and every mage can have refresh1 with /rdm.

This is not just about rdm anyway, its the same for many many jobs. You keep seeing threads on these forums. THF that cry out that nobody cares about enimity control and steal abilities, the only reason one wants a THF is Treasure Hunter. They give you bully, an ability only usefull if you tank (= you're the only DD, or your only DDs are THFs I guess), when people expect them to make TH3+ something noticable on drop rates from NMs. They should never have made TH2 available from SJ in the first place, nor give TH abi to other jobs. They clearly do not care about THF. The list goes on.

They just chose the easy path to what they think will fix the job balance: VW proc system: your job is still useless, but we need you (for procs)! yeah!

MarkovChain

09-27-2011, 05:27 AM

level 95 WHM is like an upgraded level 75 RDM with cure V-VI and 11 tick auto refresh instead of 3.

Gotterdammerung

09-27-2011, 07:18 AM

'For the hell of it' doesn't make either useful; I could bring PUP for the hell of it if I want but it's still not going to be a useful job.

Just because you suck at a job, doesn't mean the job sucks. You might come pup and be useless. But that doesn't mean PUP is useless. It just means YOU are useless on pup.

Neisan_Quetz

09-27-2011, 07:30 AM

Pup isn't very useful or wanted in all but one event and only for procs, period.

Gotterdammerung

09-27-2011, 07:45 AM

My pup isn't very useful or wanted when I play it.

Fixed.

Also, when did this thread turn into a "my opinion about which jobs have the biggest &*%$'s"

It's supposed to be about the insane cost of 95 emp upgrade. And the future for this trial after no one cares about voidwatch.

And on that topic:
I feel bad for almace/ochain plds. 3k plates just to get caught up and who knows what is coming for lvl 99.

P.S. I am also not looking forward to the emp prejudice that will plague main jobbers. Stuff like
" Ewww, you made a 99 twatstar?!. What a waste."
Mind your own business and just congratulate the guy on doing something you only wish you could do. Stop forcing your own narrow minded opinions about what is "the right way" on other people.

Zagen

09-27-2011, 07:58 AM

Pup isn't very useful or wanted if you happen to have a job that is more useful available

Fixed.
Correctly Fixed.

The reality is this isn't 2005 if you only have 1 job leveled then sucks to be you. Trying to do Endgame with only 1 job available is stupid considering the ease of leveling and decently gearing any job thanks to Abyssea/GoV.

1500 plates from non-small man friendly events sucks. But I also didn't honestly expect Emp trials to stay as easy/fast as they have been all the way to 99.

Insaniac

09-27-2011, 08:52 AM

Welp this thread has gone pretty far off topic.

I'm just here to agree with the 1500 plate requirement being pure insanity at this point. 150 plates would still be reasonably difficult but 1500 seems like the ramblings of a mad man. It's a total bait and switch. SE said they wanted empyreans to be a weapon for the casual player which they were until the 95 cap where they become a weapon for pretty much no one. I spent a couple weeks defending SE saying "Even though they have made some questionable decisions I don't think they are stupid enough to create a huge demand (2-3mil per server) for metal plates and then have the supply be limited in any way." Clearly I was wrong. Theycreated the demand and limited the supply beyond uor wildest dreams. This rivals and maybe even eclipses the 30k alexandrite requirement in stupidity. It's a classic Hiromichi Bottle neck to artificially extend the life of content. We finally had an ultimate weapon that didn't require outrageous amounts of gil or "abusing" a linkshell to get and people freaking loved it. SE made relics farmable lowman and there was much rejoicing. This move is beyond logic to me.

Yugl

09-27-2011, 11:25 AM

The solution is simple guys. Just win the next Mog Bonanza.

Ophannus

09-27-2011, 11:51 AM

Asymptotic

09-27-2011, 11:52 AM

It will probably drop to 150-500 plates next update.
HMP will drop even from T1 from VW step 3.
Drop rate will be increased.

Otherwise, someone on the dev team is smoking a lot of crack.

Atomic_Skull

09-27-2011, 01:12 PM

Insaniac

09-27-2011, 01:33 PM

So like EMpyreans are already some of the best weapons even at level 85 version. Why bother upgrading them further? They're already practically at the top, which is why they made it hard to upgrade further. They also probably have WS dmg+25% like Mythic/Relic at 95 version tooRelics and Mythics got their WS boost at 90 not 95. There's no reason to make emps better because almost all of them are still the best so there's very little chance they will get a boost other than the base damage and stat increase.

Atomic_Skull

09-27-2011, 02:19 PM

Second the gear are sidegrades at best , in most case situational and totally not worth the effort

Coruscanti is the third best dagger in the game after Twastar and Mandau and even if you have one of those it's still the best offhand dagger.

Atomic_Skull

09-27-2011, 02:20 PM

Relics and Mythics got their WS boost at 90 not 95. There's no reason to make emps better because almost all of them are still the best so there's very little chance they will get a boost other than the base damage and stat increase.

Relics got a boost to ODD/ODT and Mythics went from OAT OA2-3 at 95.

Monchat

09-27-2011, 02:29 PM

Coruscanti is the third best dagger in the game after Twastar and Mandau and even if you have one of those it's still the best offhand dagger.

You have one? Proc rate on occasionnaly severe damage? 0.1%?

Kimble

09-27-2011, 02:34 PM

I think the severe damage is just icing. Pretty sure the DMG 49, 189 delay and dex +15 is where it shines.

But whatever, you and Pchan can keep lying to your self so you don't have to do content you dont want to do for good gear.

Insaniac

09-27-2011, 02:37 PM

Relics got a boost to ODD/ODT and Mythics went from OAT OA2-3 at 95.I know lol. I don't see how this relates to my post.

Arcon

09-27-2011, 02:46 PM

The solution is simple guys. Just win the next Mog Bonanza.

Would even be faster than waiting for 1500 plates.

Leonlionheart

09-27-2011, 03:21 PM

Otherwise, someone on the dev team is smoking a lot of crack.

a lot of a lot of crack

MarkovChain

09-27-2011, 05:54 PM

Coruscanti is the third best dagger in the game after Twastar and Mandau and even if you have one of those it's still the best offhand dagger.

Also THF is a DD. Look above at RDM. People are totally going to gather by pack of 18 to farm this crap. All this for a dagger that is inferior to mandau95/twashtar90 sub. Seriously ?

Arcon

09-27-2011, 06:28 PM

Also THF is a DD. Look above at RDM. People are totally going to gather by pack of 18 to farm this crap. All this for a dagger that is inferior to mandau95/twashtar90 sub. Seriously ?

How you manage to talk with your head so far up your ass is beyond me.

Runespider

09-27-2011, 07:20 PM

I think a lot of the disappointment comes from all the people who dual boxed a bunch of empyreans. Which was actually good for SE because I knew several people who paid for 2 accounts monthly just so they could get a bunch of easy af3 and empyreans from abyssea. Now SE is going back to the alliance style of events with voidwatch. When it seems a majority of people were able to dual box a level 90 empyrean and now they can't continue. Can't tell me all you dual boxers wouldn't be getting plates from VW could be dual boxed even if it was 1500 drops.

Most people now have really small linkshells don't have anywhere near 18 people because abyssea made it so you dual boxed or did stuff with like 3-6 people on average. Lots of people have quit FFXI, so yea its pretty hard to organize any large scale event. For the casual player which abyssea catered to void watch is just way to annoying to get 18 people together to do it.

They said they wanted to encourage more low-man events when they decided to increase the level cap, make things easier for smaller groups because the game had changed and the old 18 player alliance things just weren't possible anymore. Now they are whitewashing that excuse and just trying to go back to old ways after they effectively killed all the old linkshells. They just don't know what they want or what direction they want to go in.

They don't really understand how the playerbase is or what's best for the game, as you said they are going to lose a large number of subs simply due to alts being pointless again. Maybe they don't realise how many people pay for alt accounts these days.

Laitha

09-27-2011, 08:10 PM

Just because you suck at a job, doesn't mean the job sucks. You might come pup and be useless. But that doesn't mean PUP is useless. It just means YOU are useless on pup.
Yeah I agree with that statement. It seems with the advent of fast exp and fast power weapons you have alot of people that may have decent gear for jobs either really suck at them or play them at an average level. I still don't find many people who excel at playing a certain job. Just like you won't be seeing a great deal of people with 95 emp weapons. If you need heavy iron plates on carby I can help you farm them. I play BST and RNG exceptionally well.

MarkovChain

09-27-2011, 08:11 PM

They don't try to go back to the old days (imo). They just made an experiment with an easy to implement event (VW doesn't have specific zone, it's just pop NMs). The player base would just like to know which weapon is going to rule in the end. They alreay stated (I think) that they wanted all 3 types of weapons to be on par but it's not the case, even when you account for the last mediocre boost to relics. Level 85 empy is still better yo.

brayen

09-27-2011, 08:26 PM

People need to stop saying empy > relic, it really is not that black and white. relic at 95 got the hidden 2.5-3 dmg proc raised. While the defining factor that distinguishes them from empy is simply the WS at this point. If as the above poster said they want to make them on par, then i say that is where they need to aim for. Same would go for the mythic but with the change on the 3rd aftermath, i think they are doing pretty good now for some?

IN EITHER CASE that has nothing to do with ludicrous trials. Dynamis coins have been alleviated a lot with the new dynamis changes, alexanderites have not been addressed, and now Empys have joined the massive grinding wheel, and dare i say taken the top spot?

Monchat

09-28-2011, 12:19 AM

I think the severe damage is just icing. Pretty sure the DMG 49, 189 delay and dex +15 is where it shines.

Ill compare this dagger to STR kila+3 since you don't seem to get it.

Kila +3 is DMG45 delay 190 attack+20 STR+10.

Both dager have almost the same delay, and after dualwield they effectively have the same delay, so the same TP gain/hit; the comaprison will be simple. +10 STR is +2.5 DMG and +5 attack, there fore you are comparing:

1.5 DMG, 15DEX versus 25 attack.

At an avergae pdif ( we are taling about THF here, low attack gear), 25 attack is huge. +1% global with each +4 attacks, which is what you get on average from 1.2 pDIF IIRC, the +25attack damage mean ~6.25% damage. The +1.5 damage form that new dagger should be about 3%~3.5% increase. You think the crit boost from the DEX covers the remaining missign 3% damage? The best case for the critical hit rate, is that you have a low critical hit rate without the dagger, say 10%, the floor. And that the DEX are actually usefull to put your total DEX above mob's AGI. You'll get 2, maybe 3% critical hit rate out of it. Moving from 10% critical hit rate to 13% critical hit rate is a progression of ~2.5% damage; I considered that a critical hit rate does 2x a normal damage to simplify. At 1.2 pDIF is is 1.8x iirc, again, so the progress shoulbe lower. Now if you use dancing edge , +2.5% melee damage, but +0% WS damage, ie ~+1.25% global. If you use evisceration its isa bit better but still inferior. If you use it as a sub hand dagger, it does almost nothing to WS, wether you use evisceration or not.

I think the severe damage is just icing. Pretty sure the DMG 49, 189 delay and dex +15 is where it shines.
I proved you that DMG49 delay 189 DEX+15 is inferior to kila+3 (STR). Not by a lot, but kilas+2 every THF should have since they are one of the best oustide abyssea, and kila+3 even better. So unlike what you claim, the interesting part of the dagger is the mysterious "occ severe damage". We do not know what it does nor the procc rate. I have a terrible fear that the effect will be either underwhelming ( no procc on NMs etc) or have a very low proc rate.

Mahoro

09-28-2011, 12:21 AM

They said they wanted to encourage more low-man events when they decided to increase the level cap, make things easier for smaller groups because the game had changed and the old 18 player alliance things just weren't possible anymore. Now they are whitewashing that excuse and just trying to go back to old ways after they effectively killed all the old linkshells. They just don't know what they want or what direction they want to go in.

They don't really understand how the playerbase is or what's best for the game, as you said they are going to lose a large number of subs simply due to alts being pointless again. Maybe they don't realise how many people pay for alt accounts these days.

There are still plenty of "old linkshells" alive and thriving. Peoples' fear of large groups seems to border on the paranoiac. Since all loot pools are individual, there is no downside to joining a large linkshell or group to farm your plates. For people still vehemently opposed to the idea, I imagine in a few weeks when more people have reached T3 Voidwatch you will see many shouts for groups in Port Jeuno. How hard do you think it will be to get a shout group for these things if you yell in Port Jeuno "[Voidwatcher's Emblem: Jeuno] T3 [Heavy Metal Plate] Empyrean 95 [Do you need it?] @6/18"

Arcon

09-28-2011, 12:37 AM

I proved you that DMG49 delay 189 DEX+15 is inferior to kila+3 (STR).

You proved nothing. Your post consists entirely of obscure math (everything that related to pDIF), wrong math (10 STR = 2.5 Damage) and wrong assumptions (every THF has a lolKila).

Neisan_Quetz

09-28-2011, 12:43 AM

pDIF is obscure math now...?

Arcon

09-28-2011, 12:46 AM

pDIF is obscure math now...?

Kinda, but that wasn't my point. I meant his usage of pDIF, which was obscure and looked more like guessing and groundless assumptions than actual calculations and references (of which there were 0).

Motenten

09-28-2011, 01:07 AM

Asymptotic

09-28-2011, 01:30 AM

THe NQ version of Coruscanti has Crit + 4% so I think it's a good assumption that ODSD is better than Crit+4% mathematically, if SE knows anything.

MDenham

09-28-2011, 01:41 AM

Kinda, but that wasn't my point. I meant his usage of pDIF, which was obscure and looked more like guessing and groundless assumptions than actual calculations and references (of which there were 0).This. Oh god, this.

Among other things, I'd like to know what the hell assumption he's making for the THF's attack; it looks like 400, which is a lot lower than it should be (wearing basically no attack gear and at 310 club skill, my WHM95 has 376 attack; a THF95 with capped dagger should be sitting in the vicinity of 460 attack instead).

Rearden

09-28-2011, 02:09 AM

The calculations were implicit rather than explicit, but what he stated regarding the kila is more or less correct.

I'd mainly disagree on the dDex issue, since thf should have a fairly respectable amount of dex in gear nowadays (+30 dex from the usual 4/5 AF3+2 setup plus Rajas), and thus should easily be in at least the 30-40 dDex range. As such, "best case" (which is what he claimed) would be something like +10% crit rate (going from ~15% to 25%), which is pretty huge.

I'm fairly sure I can push out as much DEX on WAR as a Twash/Corus THF and still not be near the 40 range for dDEX on anything worthwhile. A Mithra THF or WAR, maybe, but unlikely. Most of the gear sacrifices are too poor to make anyway for such a small boost.

MarkovChain

09-28-2011, 03:33 AM

This. Oh god, this.

Among other things, I'd like to know what the hell assumption he's making for the THF's attack; it looks like 400, which is a lot lower than it should be (wearing basically no attack gear and at 310 club skill, my WHM95 has 376 attack; a THF95 with capped dagger should be sitting in the vicinity of 460 attack instead).

Cool story bro. At 460 attack +/-4 attack yields 0.9% variation in damage lol. You and arcon could team up and math it str kila vs loldagger.

Atomic_Skull

09-28-2011, 03:46 AM

This. Oh god, this.

Among other things, I'd like to know what the hell assumption he's making for the THF's attack; it looks like 400, which is a lot lower than it should be (wearing basically no attack gear and at 310 club skill, my WHM95 has 376 attack; a THF95 with capped dagger should be sitting in the vicinity of 460 attack instead).

TP set (no food)

STR: 88+23
DEX: 99+35
Attack: 571

WS set(no food)

STR:88+74
DEX:99+38
Attack:600

MDenham

09-28-2011, 04:21 AM

TP set (no food)

STR: 88+23
DEX: 99+35
Attack: 571

WS set(no food)

STR:88+74
DEX:99+38
Attack:600Thanks for more accurate numbers. I was running with the "not wearing any attack gear" assumption with my number, and was still coming out with results of "if you get 2% or more crits from the DEX+15, that's enough to beat a STR Kila" (on mobs with ~90 VIT).

Yarly

09-28-2011, 04:57 AM

I know lol. I don't see how this relates to my post.

because everybody knows that the occasionally attacks 2-3 and occasionally deals double/triple damage procs on weaponskills, like duh!

Insaniac

09-28-2011, 06:15 AM

The OA2-3 does actually but Relic damage does not.

Eth

09-28-2011, 06:16 AM

Responding to the original topic.

I'm disappointed that SE does not seem after all to have learned the main lesson of the Zilart and TOAU relic systems. Tying the acquisition of relic weapons to an insane gil chase encourages the worst kinds of pathologies: RMT, fish botting, monster monopolization, racketeering, LS bank stealing, and scams of every kind.

The Empyrean relics up to stage 90 are exactly like a relic system should work: cooperative quests plus an item collection task that can and must, due to the ex nature of the items, be personally completed, with minimal constraints from competition.

But now we're back to the failed design philosophy of you must make ridiculous amounts of gil in order to buy control of much of a server's supply of a scarce resource, and whoever is best at acquiring gil, whether by ethical or unethical means, wins.

Worthiness by wealth- it didn't work for the Zilart relics, and it won't work now. It will just bring out the worst in everyone. Stop the insanity SE - keep Empyrean upgrades as reasonable as they were from 75 to 90, and balance the other two relic systems by increasing the drop rates of ancient currency and Alex by a large factor.

Asymptotic

09-28-2011, 06:45 AM

balance the other two relic systems by increasing the drop rates of ancient currency and Alex by a large factor.

Alexandrite, yeah. But they've already done this with ancient currency. CoPamis absolutely rains currency. Rains.

Atomic_Skull

09-28-2011, 07:21 AM

Worthiness by wealth- it didn't work for the Zilart relics, and it won't work now. It will just bring out the worst in everyone. Stop the insanity SE - keep Empyrean upgrades as reasonable as they were from 75 to 90, and balance the other two relic systems by increasing the drop rates of ancient currency and Alex by a large factor.

Yes slap everyone who spent 3+ years upgrading a relic or mythic in the face.

But they aren't going to do that, especially not with Tanaka back in charge of FFXI now.

MarkovChain

09-28-2011, 07:57 AM

TP set (no food)

STR: 88+23
DEX: 99+35
Attack: 571

WS set(no food)

STR:88+74
DEX:99+38
Attack:600

With 600 attack, mob with 450 DEF, 7 level difference

@ 600 attack : pdif average=1.1906
@ 604 attack : pdif average=1.1800

0.9% increase (on non crits)

Eth

09-28-2011, 08:29 AM

Yes slap everyone who spent 3+ years upgrading a relic or mythic in the face.

I'm not.Those people who had their relics for years had their reward. They derived status and enjoyment from their relics for all this time, and I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was the best years that FFXI had.

FFXI is a dying game now. Slowly dying, but dying. Back in '05, the idea of starting a quest that you would only finish in '08 made sense, because the best days were yet to come, and the large investment of time made a certain sense.

But now, you want people to start an upgrade project the fruits of which they might see by 2014? FFXI might not even exist by then anymore. Get real. The game is fading, and you might as well let people enjoy the content for which they're paying while it still exists.

The existing relic holders will just have to confront reality, because their achievement was never real, and will fade into digital oblivion one way or another.

Insaniac

09-28-2011, 08:45 AM

I'm not.Those people who had their relics for years had their reward. They derived status and enjoyment from their relics for all this time, and I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was the best years that FFXI had.

FFXI is a dying game now. Slowly dying, but dying. Back in '05, the idea of starting a quest that you would only finish in '08 made sense, because the best days were yet to come, and the large investment of time made a certain sense.

But now, you want people to start an upgrade project the fruits of which they might see by 2014? FFXI might not even exist by then anymore. Get real. The game is fading, and you might as well let people enjoy the content for which they're paying while it still exists.

The existing relic holders will just have to confront reality, because their achievement was never real, and will fade into digital oblivion one way or another.As a relic holder of old I had no problem at all with a questable ultimate weapon. I did have a problem with the balance issues it caused but aslong as emps and relics ended up on the same level at 99 I did not care. You are absolutely right. I got my moneys worth out of my relic long before emps even existed. I was also excited to be able to get top tier weapons for all my DD jobs with a little effort. Now I will have to stare at at least 3 incomplete weapons until I decide to quit the game over something else insane that this Tanaka led dev team comes up with.

Yugl

09-28-2011, 09:12 AM

And your philosophy is to use the the current jobs that don't suck (WHM) to farm gears to those that suck (SCH,RDM). In the end of the day, with better gear, sch is vastly inferior to WHM, period.

Gear being good is independent of whether the class that can use said gear is good. A DRG-only piece with 10% Haste and 50 ATT is a good piece of gear even during the lolDRG era.

Gotterdammerung

09-28-2011, 10:57 AM

Atomic_Skull

09-28-2011, 01:19 PM

But now, you want people to start an upgrade project the fruits of which they might see by 2014? FFXI might not even exist by then anymore. Get real. The game is fading, and you might as well let people enjoy the content for which they're paying while it still exists.

MMOs do not have to fade away, CCP has shown this with EVE Online. With regular technology updates and content releases an MMO can increase it's subscribers over the years, EVE has proven this.

FFXIV isn't going to be the successor to FFXI. It has already failed, SE just won't face up to this. FFXI players aren't going to suddenly like it and switch over en mass because we see it for what it is, a bland watered down copy of Vana'diel populated with bland less interesting versions of Vana'diel's races. It's not just the game that keeps us in FFXI, it's the world. And non FFXI players simply don't care about it because it's not WoW.

FFXI still has more subscribers than Warhammer and Age of Conan combined. It is not on death's door yet and if SE were to update the game's technology and relaunch it with a new expansion and a large advertising campaign it's decline could be turned around.

Elexia

09-28-2011, 01:47 PM

Actually, if XIV had the amount of content XI does and the interface was client side, I'd drop XI like a bad habit.

Atomic_Skull

09-28-2011, 02:49 PM

Actually, if XIV had the amount of content XI does and the interface was client side, I'd drop XI like a bad habit.

Mithra > Miqo'te

FFXIV's version is a bland copy of the FFXI original. Much less visually interesting. They're basically just human women with cat ears and tails, unlike mithra who actually look like cat people.

Daniel_Hatcher

09-29-2011, 02:21 AM

This update was ingenious, hopefully 99 is similar. It justifies it actually being classed as the same as Mythics ad Relics.

Return1

09-29-2011, 02:29 AM

I love reading all the QQing from the tards when something comes out, then pointing out how retarded they were after a while.

Remember when abyssea came out and all the retards whined about how bad it sucked and it was useless and a waste of 10 dollars?

That's how the 95 Emp weapons are. In a few months or a year, Plates will be pretty cheap and people will forget about this.

scaevola

09-29-2011, 02:34 AM

Neisan_Quetz

09-29-2011, 02:39 AM

Return1

09-29-2011, 03:03 AM

... Did you completely ignore the current drop rate, and where the plates drop from?

Nope, I just know that a competent group can do VW easily and each member of an alliance can get 1-12 plates (12 in a pouch), meaning this will be a complete joke before long. Especially if crybabies give up very early so there's less desire/competition to snap up plates in bazaars.

Feliciaa

09-29-2011, 03:14 AM

Return1 is basically saying spend less time QQ and more time doing VW and working on those plates! Besides lets be honest, like 90% of the people with an 85 Emp were never going to even bother with 90+ trials.

Byrth

09-29-2011, 03:20 AM

Nope, I just know that a competent group can do VW easily and each member of an alliance can get 1-12 plates (12 in a pouch), meaning this will be a complete joke before long. Especially if crybabies give up very early so there's less desire/competition to snap up plates in bazaars.

People are pulling an ~1 plate per run on tier 3 NMs from one of the two Voidwatch paths. Another 6 Voidwatch NMs have a chance to drop single plates, but at a low rate so you're looking at ~3-5 per alliance.

Even assuming every Voidwatch NM killed dropped 1 plate no matter what, it would take a full alliance of 18. 84 kills with a full alliance to complete one Empyrean. There are a huge number of Empyrean weapon holders looking to upgrade their weapons. As it is, your entire server will likely get less than 1 Empyrean worth of Plates per week. In contrast, it takes ~50 duo Dynamis runs to complete a Relic. Your server likely farms a Relic worth of currency every day or two.

Falseliberty

09-29-2011, 03:21 AM

I think its still a tad early to say. most people are working the jeuno path. i wanna see just how bad zilart paths are before passing judgement
first few weeks after any update is always messy and info is scarce, especially when most people trying to lvl jobs and recap skills before even tackling new content

on a side note i really hate these new drop systems (WoE and VW) SE seems to be trying to push strangers to party together, which is ok but this is not the way to do it. linkshells want to do things AS A LINKSHELL

Return1

09-29-2011, 03:24 AM

Someone gets it.

The Abyssea Babies are in for a rude awakening that they actually have to work together in a group and make friends and not be a piece of shit to anyone and everyone while they get everything they want anyway from incredibly weak, handholding content.

If I cared to get an EMP, I don't because I'm an Apoc DRK meaning I have my best weapon, I could get it to 95 easily, because I have people skills that go beyond claiming your nm when it goes yellow and SSing for the lulz, and I have at very least a basic understanding of game mechanics, giving me and my kind an edge over 90% of the population of today's game.

The 95 Upgrade is easily doable but most are blind to it due to their constant QQing and inability to maintain rational strings of thought.

MarkovChain

09-29-2011, 03:34 AM

Byrth

09-29-2011, 03:35 AM

The 95 Upgrade is easily doable but most are blind to it due to their constant QQing and inability to maintain rational strings of thought.

I have 28500 Alexandrite that I've collected in the last two months and I still think this trial is bullshit. The supply is low to start with and will get lower when no one cares about Voidwatch anymore. Furthermore, it's entirely dependent on making an alliance to farm incredibly rare sidegrade gear.

It's not like Dynamis, where you can enslave people for years with their dreams of someday owning a RDM AF2 hat and then mentally whitewash it as "people skills" afterwards.

Basically, you appear to have no idea what you're talking about.

Sesh

09-29-2011, 03:45 AM

FFXI still has more subscribers than Warhammer and Age of Conan combined. It is not on death's door yet and if SE were to update the game's technology and relaunch it with a new expansion and a large advertising campaign it's decline could be turned around.

But let's be honest the chances of that being done by SE are like .00000001%

scaevola

09-29-2011, 03:45 AM

I have 28500 Alexandrite that I've collected in the last two months and I still think this trial is bullshit. The supply is low to start with and will get lower when no one cares about Voidwatch anymore. Furthermore, it's entirely dependent on making an alliance to farm incredibly rare sidegrade gear.

It's not like Dynamis, where you can enslave people for years with their dreams of someday owning a RDM AF2 hat and then mentally whitewash it as "people skills" afterwards.

I just wanted to say you're pretty much my favorite poster.

(Also, as someone who played both Warhammer and AoC, comparing FFXI favorably to them doesn't really prove much)

Return1

09-29-2011, 05:28 AM

You have a complex of superiority and did not understand that getting an empyrean upgraded has nothing to do with doing voidwatch or being skilled. Just because you do it doesn't mean you have more chance than me at the level 95 empy. It's not enough to kill those NMs just like it was not enough to do salvage for alexandrite. Byrth explained you that you would need 90 fights while each 18 members would give you all their drops. This can't possibly happen as they can sell it and make cash or want to upgrade it themselves. They can also sell it to you but facepalm if you do VW and buy. If you want to farm everything yourself you'll actually need to do 90x18s fights *at least*. I'm not sure if you can build enough stones in on year to get an empy for your whole ally lol.

You can easily get enough stones, you can just buy/farm pouches of Voiddust. See, I can get people to work with me to focus on 1 emp at a time, which in turn will result in more emps completed over time. Not only that, but I can easily come up with a system rewarding for all who participate, it's not like they have to get nothing for help.

I have 28500 Alexandrite that I've collected in the last two months and I still think this trial is bullshit. The supply is low to start with and will get lower when no one cares about Voidwatch anymore. Furthermore, it's entirely dependent on making an alliance to farm incredibly rare sidegrade gear.

It's not like Dynamis, where you can enslave people for years with their dreams of someday owning a RDM AF2 hat and then mentally whitewash it as "people skills" afterwards.

Basically, you appear to have no idea what you're talking about.

If your dynamis LS was enslaving people for years, maybe your ls just sucked. My ls got everyone stuff they wanted and had a simple system to guarantee you knew your place for rewards instead of underhanded asshattery that most crap shells used.

The Supply will go up while demand falls.

Why? Because Voidwatch is just now only half over TOPS since we know there's going to be 4 parts at least to VW. VW is Endgame now. Abyssea is like old Merit PTs and O-hat runs and such, while VW is oldschool kings (but with a better/tiered system). End Game LSes will likely see a new age. This will lead to more plates, supply rises.

The whinier casuals will slowly drop out of the Emp race, meaning less people will be buying plates, demand falls.

The gear is getting better, the drops on gear this update seems to be better, and the fights are intense and fun. The gear progression is essentially the same as the 75 cap days as well. You get most of your good gear from AH and casual events. AF3 is like the new Hauby/Noble's, Dusk, Swift, Turban, O-hat, etc. The new endgame gear won't outright demolish it by the amount that AF3 demolished the previous standard AH/Event gear, just like Homam didn't demolish Dusk.

Things are balancing out, and eventually even Plates will balance out.

MarkovChain

09-29-2011, 06:19 AM

You can easily get enough stones, you can just buy/farm pouches of Voiddust. See, I can get people to work with me to focus on 1 emp at a time, which in turn will result in more emps completed over time. Not onlythat, but I can easily come up with a system rewarding for all who participate, it's not like they have to get nothing for help.

No you can't come to any system. The drop system prevents it. You don't control anything that will go to any pool of any party members or their mules. You cannot prove that a member broke a "rule". Worst, the situation is inverted compared to point based systems that you probably used at 75 (that could only result in chaos and anger). Because the new member is NOT the one that is needing the LS to farm him his gear. It's the other way around. The leader is needing this member so that he would give him his plates. Lastly your voiddust argument will quickly go to trash when you realize people are not willing to spend their one CP/IS/whatever for you. Because let's be honest. Your idea is to farm the empy for the leader first, and anyone that has played this game more than one year knows how this all ends. The system is designed to be like this anyway. It's a good event for LSs that want to build cash probably (not sure why though). I think it's targetting a lot of people, those that can't make say 1 million in one evening. It definitely not a way to achieve a level 95 empyrean.

*IF* your 18 members are 100% certain to average 1 stone per run, that is 1 stone = 1 plate => 1500 stones spent and you get an empy for each members. 1 person will get 365*3=1095 stones per year which means out of 18 members in your ally, only 12 will get an empy in one year, and that is with a drop system that is a million time better that what we know as of today.

Return1

09-29-2011, 06:54 AM

Lastly your voiddust argument will quickly go to trash when you realize people are not willing to spend their one CP/IS/whatever for you. Because let's be honest. Your idea is to farm the empy for the leader first, and anyone that has played this game more than one year knows how this all ends.

Bolded the wrong (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3y3QoFnqZc).

I have no emp myself as stated before, so I don't think it'd be leader first, which is the smart way to go about it.

No you can't come to any system. The drop system prevents it. You don't control anything that will go to any pool of any party members or their mules.

Doesn't matter, I can come up with a crossevent system that rewards cooperation throughout multiple events, just like old Endgame shells. That and gil is universal. You act like you're just taking the plates from people with no form of reward.

the new member is NOT the one that is needing the LS to farm him his gear. It's the other way around. The leader is needing this member so that he would give him his plates.

As a fairly successful LS leader in the past, let me tell you something. You have it ass backwards. The Leaders always needed members more.

On top of that, the smartest way to get what you want as a leader is to get others what they want, which is why a smart leader wouldn't make himself the first in line for the first Emp upgrade in this situation in particular. Once a system is established and succeeds, a group's support grows, and you get more to follow along. As long as you're on top of weeding out greedy assholes and shit-stirrers, you can easily keep the group together. Once the first Emp was completed, people will easily conform to getting another, and then another.

By the way, you can arrange events to farm CP/AN for Voiddust, such as book burns or Icelands campaigns, then stockpile seals for KSNM/HKNM, using the payouts/drops as rewards for cooperating in VW. As long as you can imagine a system and have a core group of friends, you can make it happen in this game.

MarkovChain

09-29-2011, 07:08 AM

Doesn't matter, I can come up with a crossevent system that rewards cooperation throughout multiple events, just like old Endgame shells. That and gil is universal. You act like you're just taking the plates from people with no form of reward.

Except voidwatch, the entire game is duoable. Gil rains from everywhere and is not used for anything. You don't have anything to offer to your member except their chance at their level 95 empy. You will be teaming up with a cluster of level-95-maxed-gear-level-90-empy-players, aka people that already have better gear than you (you, the apocalypse user lol).

CP/AN for Voiddust, such as book burns or Icelands campaigns, then stockpile seals for KSNM/HKNM, using the payouts/drops as rewards for cooperating in VW

No you can't force your 18 members to farm 300k exp so that you can have 100 more stones. Lol@ seal & CP farming. You do realise that BCNM are the worst possible gil farming method for one and that CP farming is completely inefficient compared to , say, bringing a mule lol.

Monchat

09-29-2011, 07:21 AM

even if you buy voiddust .. or whatever , did you take into account the time lol? 30mn per fight is a lower estimate if you take gathering into account. Also your 18 man allaince will not run every day, doing 10 fights for 1 year.

By the way, you can arrange events to farm CP/AN for Voiddust, such as book burns or Icelands campaigns, then stockpile seals for KSNM/HKNM, using the payouts/drops as rewards for cooperating in VW. As long as you can imagine a system and have a core group of friends, you can make it happen in this game.

Hm anyone who would do that is a noob. You dont need an LS to do KSNM. As far as I heard they are 3 manable at most NP like the 90 cap ones. Also only newbs think doing KSNMs is good for money. We all know the drop rates are not high enough and dynamis farmig is #1 by far. The only reason I did KSNM is because the drops werent on the AH ( calmecac leggings). I think you are full of yourself because you have an appocalypse ( its not impressing man) and can kill voidwatch NMs ( VW is not hard man, just needs 18 people).

Return1

09-29-2011, 08:05 AM

Except voidwatch, the entire game is duoable. Gil rains from everywhere and is not used for anything. You don't have anything to offer to your member except their chance at their level 95 empy. You will be teaming up with a cluster of level-95-maxed-gear-level-90-empy-players, aka people that already have better gear than you (you, the apocalypse user lol).

Sorry you didn't get the memo bro, but Apocalypse is DRK's best weapon by far.

Also, I love how people complain about gil being worthless and raining from the sky, but it's unbelievable to buy plates, make up your damn minds.

No you can't force your 18 members to farm 300k exp so that you can have 100 more stones. Lol@ seal & CP farming. You do realise that BCNM are the worst possible gil farming method for one and that CP farming is completely inefficient compared to , say, bringing a mule lol.

1) BCNM right now are passable gil, but stockpiling seals to spam sell BB items, and make money off of something most just store or toss is called smart.

2) You don't have to get all the voiddust from CP, you can go cleave in Bostaunieux Oubliette and find them fast as hell in Brown caskets.

3) Not everyone has a mule.

even if you buy voiddust .. or whatever , did you take into account the time lol? 30mn per fight is a lower estimate if you take gathering into account. Also your 18 man allaince will not run every day, doing 10 fights for 1 year.

If we averaged it out to 5 plates a fight, 3 fights a night, and went nightly, that would just be 100 nights for 1 emp. Also, you're not considering more than 1 alliance, the Pouches (1-12 plates), the real drop rate, any tricks that may be announced to influence drop rates, or buying plates outside of runs.

But go on, keep trying to invalidating my argument by picturing me as an elitist who thinks Apocalypse is impressive or VW is hard. If I got an Apocalypse, it's easily in reach of others. VW in itself is challenging, especially the ones where you need people who can follow instructions better than an ADHD, crack-fueled dachshund. The hardest part about VW is finding non-retards to consistently do runs with.

Also, while Dynamis is easily a top 3 gil producer, not everyone does it. People are lazy and/or stupid. This is why I made tens of millions selling distilled water stacks on the Sandy AH back in the day.

Byrth

09-29-2011, 08:09 AM

If we averaged it out to 5 plates a fight, 3 fights a night, and went nightly, that would just be 100 nights for 1 emp. Also, you're not considering more than 1 alliance, the Pouches (1-12 plates), the real drop rate, any tricks that may be announced to influence drop rates, or buying plates outside of runs.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Voidstone

Return1

09-29-2011, 08:15 AM

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Voiddust

Byrth

09-29-2011, 08:28 AM

So you're going to buy half your stones for 2k AN, IS, etc. and you have 17 friends willing to do the same so that one person can upgrade one Empyrean in 100 nights?

Return1

09-29-2011, 08:32 AM

ITT: People Can't/Don't read.

2) You don't have to get all the voiddust from CP, you can go cleave in Bostaunieux Oubliette and find them fast as hell in Brown caskets.

Byrth

09-29-2011, 08:35 AM

Zumi

09-29-2011, 08:48 AM

You're unrealistic. I did 91 -> 95 in GoV and never got a Voiddust. Opening chests takes time, etc.

Basically, you have no argument because even if we accept all of your assumptions you still have a group of 18 people working 100 nights for one person to get a few base damage and 1 stat.

Pretty much the same thing happened during the classic dynamis era. Upgrading 1 persons weapon taking several years. But that was then and this is now. People want goals that are realistically obtainable. Not a huge couple year grind for a minimal damage increase. Stuff like the 1500 plates for 95 empys are more likely to have people say screw it my weapon can stay at level 90 and since I really don't have anything else left to do in FFXI ill just cancel my sub for now.

Having a very long grind isn't the way to keep subscriptions.

Zagen

09-29-2011, 08:49 AM

LOL @ 100 nights to get Emp to 95. That's 1,800 nights or almost 5 years... Do you honestly think that's realistic? For a marginal upgrade or the fact this is a step upgrade and not the final version requirement.

Do you honestly believe people will join you in your 5 year journey to get 18 Emps to 95 in a game that is getting content thin updates at best meaning people are more likely to quit before those 5 years?

Return1

09-29-2011, 08:54 AM

Where were you farming 91-95? Were you even in a zone with it as a drop? Maybe it's just poor luck on your part, I got nothing but Voiddust in my caskets hunting the Rare and R/EX drops in the original GoV areas. Also, idk how much time it takes you to open chests, but there's going to be at least 1-2 people that can focus on opening them. Farming exp/gil while prepping for the event. You don't even have to cleave either, you can find time to get one long Campaign battle or a Beseiged and not need to farm boxes/cp.

It's 100 nights under minimal conditions, no pouches dropping, without buying a single plate or doing more runs than planned. And don't give me that shit about how it's unreasonable, I've seen a lot of Emp holders mindlessly cleave and spam fight for hours on end for days/weeks straight to get the 85. In comparison a couple hours a night is nothing.

Also, no one even knows if the Emps got hidden boosts like relics and mythics, so a couple damage and a stat isn't a proper summation of the boost yet.

Just noticed: Voiddust is AHable, sells for 1-3k each, lots put up, sell fast. A real bank buster.

Zagen

09-29-2011, 09:05 AM

It's 100 nights under minimal conditions, no pouches dropping, without buying a single plate or doing more runs than planned. And don't give me that shit about how it's unreasonable, I've seen a lot of Emp holders mindlessly cleave and spam fight for hours on end for days/weeks straight to get the 85. In comparison a couple hours a night is nothing.
The more runs you plan the more game time must be dedicated to being a farming machine, after all gotta keep those Void Stones in the positive to be able to spam. That sounds like loads of fun that definitely won't lead people to quit your group at some point or the game completely. Say we double the time that's still almost 2 and half years of work for 18 Emps...

Also, no one even knows if the Emps got hidden boosts like relics and mythics, so a couple damage and a stat isn't a proper summation of the boost yet.
You get working on it because if there is no bonus good luck keeping people motivated once this can be tested.

Just noticed: Voiddust is AHable, sells for 1-3k each, lots put up, sell fast. A real bank buster.
Create the demand and that price will rise happily.

Return1

09-29-2011, 09:17 AM

ITT:

Plates cost too much gil.

Gil falls like rain and is used for nothing.

Voiddust is hard to comprehend, let alone come by.

Everyone wants an Emp.

You're the only group in the entire game to find HMP.

Worst case scenarios are the only case scenarios.

Pouches are a lie.

There are no hidden boosts to 95 emps.

There will be no 99 Emp that may justify having to deal with a crappy 95 jump.

Heavy Metal Plates, like Comet, Thunder V, Blizzaja, and all the new sellable equipment, will never go down in price.

People will never work together on a weapon that few may get.

Etc.

The fail is strong on these boards.

Byrth

09-29-2011, 09:24 AM

No, you're basically an idiot. I could get a relic in a month solo, why should one stage of an Empyrean take 3 months and the work of 17 other people?

Atomic_Skull

09-29-2011, 10:01 AM

But let's be honest the chances of that being done by SE are like .00000001%

Sadly yes. The most likely outcome is that 4 years from now SE has an FFXIV with around 30k players on 16 servers that they still adamantly refuse to give up on and a dying, content starved and utterly ruined FFXI with around 50k players crammed into 2 servers who only hang on because of their memories of better times. The rest will have moved on and will never come back to play FFXIV no matter how "good" it becomes because they know that the devs will get bored of working on it in a few years and decide to replace it with something new just like they did with FFXI and try to herd them all into a new game they didn't ask for and don't want by ruining the game they are currently playing to drive them over.

Atomic_Skull

09-29-2011, 10:14 AM

I'm pretty sure the intention of the lvl 95 and 99 upgrades are simply bragging rights. Even at 90 an emp is still the best weapon of it's class in the game for most weapons. Hell even 85 emps beat lvl 95 relics in most cases. The whole point is you have an easily upgradable version of the weapon (90) and then you have two additional stages that really make little difference in the weapon's effectiveness that are there just as a status symbol.

They're trying to cater to both the casual and hardcore crowd at the same time with this.

Arcon

09-29-2011, 02:29 PM

It's 100 nights under minimal conditions

Wrong, those are optimal conditions. You're completely deluded if you think you'll find 17 people who wanna spend ~6 hours absolutely every single day, no exceptions, for five years to get a Lv95 weapon. It will not happen, ever. If you really believe that, go see a psychiatrist.

The reality is, there will be some LS like back in the relic days, LS that abuse their members to get plates for themselves. However, they will be very rare and very hard to get members, because a) Empyreans are a lot more common, so a lot more people will think about getting it, and b) because there's not much incentive for people to keep doing Voidwatch, all the time.

The only possible way to fix this, is if they add more ways to obtain plates in the next update. But I dread to find out what the next upgrade to Lv99 will be. Knowing SE, probably 5000 plates for Acc+2.

MarkovChain

09-29-2011, 05:26 PM

ITT:

Plates cost too much gil.

Gil falls like rain and is used for nothing.

You fail at understanding. I have been explaining you that doing voidwatch doesn't give more chance at a level 95 than anyone else, precisely because it's easier/faster to buy plates. 150M of today is not super awesome. The only problem is the supply. My chance is that there will be people like your LS members that will pretend they didn't get plates and bazar them for 100k.

noodles355

09-29-2011, 07:10 PM

Moving from 10% critical hit rate to 13% critical hit rate is a progression of ~2.5% damage; I considered that a critical hit rate does 2x a normal damage to simplify. At 1.2 pDIF is is 1.8x iirc, again, so the progress shoulbe lower. Now if you use dancing edge , +2.5% melee damage, but +0% WS damage, ie ~+1.25% global.
You're so right. Dex adds +0% WS damage on Dancing Edge. If only Dancing Edge had like a 30% Dex WSC or something hmmm.... oh wait.

MarkovChain

09-29-2011, 07:20 PM

Mercy stroke, what is it. The truth is that someone semi serious about THF should be targetting it.

Return1

09-29-2011, 07:28 PM

The logic in this thread is awesome.

Its not faster to farm your own plates in a climate where plates are yet to be well circulated and are overpriced by early obtainees to try and make big gil off of the stupidity of the impatient.

Saying retarded crap like that is why all the other boards refer to the official forums as the home of stupidity.

I love how people are complaining about how awful the current EMP 95 upgrade is, but will argue against pooling because everyone is going to really go for it. Newsflash, most people will probably give up from QQ till the price inevitably falls through the floor.

Arcon quit being a complete tool and exaggerating everything. 6hours? If it takes you 6 hours to get 3 VW fights done, you should just quit the freaking game. And people won't team up if you offer some reward of some type? Not true at all. Gil is easy to come by, but most don't farm it. Most people in this game don't have Emp weapons either (and some of us have no need for them), and may be doing VW for the gear/gil from it, and the -GASP- fun of the battles! 5 years for everyone to get theirs? Bullshit, farming and snapping up cheap plates will make it a breeze, especially when the QQers drop out of the race so to speak.

I also love how people go on about how people WON'T do this or that, when there are people in this game that obviously will.

Arcon

09-29-2011, 08:28 PM

Its not faster to farm your own plates in a climate where plates are yet to be well circulated and are overpriced by early obtainees to try and make big gil off of the stupidity of the impatient.

There is no fast way at all and there never will be. There isn't even a decent way. Only a retarded way, as of our current knowledge, and that's precisely the problem.

Saying retarded crap like that is why all the other boards refer to the official forums as the home of stupidity.

Have you looked around other forums? They pretty much all say the same thing. As of right now, it's you vs. everyone else.

I love how people are complaining about how awful the current EMP 95 upgrade is, but will argue against pooling because everyone is going to really go for it. Newsflash, most people will probably give up from QQ till the price inevitably falls through the floor.

Not going to happen. The price will always remain high, because people will always wanna go for it. Look at relics. People always wanted to do relics, no matter how impossible it seemed, and that's why the price for coins was always really high. And keep in mind, that this update is needed for Lv99 upgrade, even if this update didn't add much by itself.

Arcon quit being a complete tool and exaggerating everything. 6hours? If it takes you 6 hours to get 3 VW fights done, you should just quit the freaking game.

What you said before didn't make you sound like an elitist prick, but this does. And it's not just the battles, it's everything involved in it, from farming to gathering.

And people won't team up if you offer some reward of some type? Not true at all. Gil is easy to come by, but most don't farm it. Most people in this game don't have Emp weapons either (and some of us have no need for them), and may be doing VW for the gear/gil from it, and the -GASP- fun of the battles! 5 years for everyone to get theirs? Bullshit, farming and snapping up cheap plates will make it a breeze, especially when the QQers drop out of the race so to speak.

Wishful thinking, at best, but probably just ignorant delusions. What gear, what gil? Do you think anyone will still want something from it after a month of doing three battles a night? And, for that matter, do you think the stuff from there will still be worth anything? Except for the plates of course, which everyone will want.

And you keep forgetting that this is all just for one person still. God forbid two people wanna work on their Empyreans. What you say is simply not realistic, not in any way, shape or form. You keep assuming the best of conditions, that you will find people, that everyone will help on every fight, that everyone will get a drop. That is just silly.

Insaniac

09-30-2011, 02:30 AM

Guys, tons of people not motivated enough to have empyreans will for sure be willing to put in 50 times the work of getting their own lvl 90 empyrean just so someone else can go from level 90 to 95. You just need to be really smart and amazing to make it happen. Also all these people will show up on time every night 7 days a week for sure and keep helping after they get the gear they want. You only need charisma.

I didn't know Dallas had an alt with an Apoc.

Return1

09-30-2011, 03:15 AM

There is no fast way at all and there never will be. There isn't even a decent way. Only a retarded way, as of our current knowledge, and that's precisely the problem.

Your reading comprehension is weak. I was saying Doing VW and buying was faster than just buying, especially at this point in time.

Not going to happen. The price will always remain high, because people will always wanna go for it. Look at relics. People always wanted to do relics, no matter how impossible it seemed, and that's why the price for coins was always really high. And keep in mind, that this update is needed for Lv99 upgrade, even if this update didn't add much by itself.

People always want to go for Relic type upgrades, but less than 1% of the population had them before, this isn't going to change. People will want it, but most won't get it.

Btw, Relics and coins are a HORRIBLE example for you. Prices on coins have drastically plummeted over the years. I remember when I started Apoc and coins were 30-50k depending on which city they were. Over the course of ~2 years the prices plummeted to 10k-20k a coin, with no adjustments but the amount of circulating coins. In the last year, coins changed from 5-16k to a universal 10k. The dynamis change balanced the cost of the coins so they're about all equal, but the demand grew with the supply.

What you said before didn't make you sound like an elitist prick, but this does. And it's not just the battles, it's everything involved in it, from farming to gathering.

If it takes your group 6 straight hours to farm, gather, and do three short fights, you're borderline too stupid to live let alone do an organized LS event well. No wonder you're in disbelief that people will find workarounds.

Wishful thinking, at best, but probably just ignorant delusions. What gear, what gil? Do you think anyone will still want something from it after a month of doing three battles a night? And, for that matter, do you think the stuff from there will still be worth anything?

The same way I got around not having enough people for one event. I recruited for multiple events, and made a cross event point system. Gil/gear/help from or with other events is the motivation to help with the event you don't care to do otherwise. It's essentially the same as doing Sea for a D.Chap. I know it's insanely hard to comprehend, using rewards from elsewhere in the game to reward people for doing something they need nothing from.

Except for the plates of course, which everyone will want.

WRONG. Holy shit could you be more wrong? Not everyone wants plates. Not everyone will be bothered to get them. Most people don't have base 85 Emps even.

I lot of people argueing against me are saying because people can easily do something without a lses help, but while that's the case, most people don't do it, so your point is moot. Sure anyone can Dual Box a MNK and a WHM and make an Emp of their choice, but far less than 25% of the population actually do. Sure Dynamis farming is amazing gil, too bad most of the population doesn't do it, let alone know how to proc in Dynamis.

And you keep forgetting that this is all just for one person still. God forbid two people wanna work on their Empyreans.

No, it's for everyone, in an order. It's the exact thing as getting in line for any other rare drop in the game, except this drop is made up of 1500 plates instead of Refresh and 15enfeebling magic skill right out of the box. Once one person gets it, the line moves forward. Also, not everyone in the ls is on the list because not everyone cares.

You keep assuming the best of conditions,

Wrong.

Best conditions would include pouches and higher drops on singles.

that you will find people

Finding people is easy, and people have done stupider things in this game than working together to focus on one emp at a time to push them out faster. Hell some extremely large old Endgame LSes on the "higher tiers" used to require you give them your account info and phone numbers and in some cases required you to pay RL money for tools to claim HNMs just to join. That's A LOT dumber than what I'm proposing.

that everyone will help on every fight, that everyone will get a drop. That is just silly.

I never said everyone would participate every fight, but everyone would get some reward, because good leaders find ways to benefit ALL of their members.

Also, we can now add this to the long list of Premature QQs like Nyzul WSes costing over 10,000 WS points to unlock, Abyssea being a flop, Dynamis changes killing currency drop rate and farming, Scrolls being too hard to find, VW being a flop, WoE adjustments killing the event, etc.

Turns out Pouches drop at a rate close to 1 pouch per alliance per 1-2 fights from Zilart path. Pouches also seem to follow the Cotton Purse system so far, 4-20 plates per pouch, an average of 12 plates per pouch going by that, and can drop more than 1 pouch to the alliance per battle.

Lets run the numbers for an alliance, say 5 plates on average per run, 1 pouch every 4 runs (Looks pretty lowball right now), 4 runs a night. Thats an average of ~32 plates a night, so about 47 nights of farming.

That's lowballing the drop rate on pouches, not buying a single plate, and only doing the scheduled runs with your group. a couple hours a night is pretty tame considering what a lot of Emp holders I've seen did to get theirs.

QQ more.

Insaniac

09-30-2011, 03:39 AM

I'm curious what other event you think you can use to force people to do voidwatch 7 days a week for points.

Neisan_Quetz

09-30-2011, 03:42 AM

I'm curious what group of people are doing VW that can't/won't make an emp other than non Calad Drks, Drgs going for mythic (they won't bother with VW anyway), Mages with no other jobs? We back in 2005?

Arcon

09-30-2011, 04:13 AM

Garbage

As I said, assuming best of conditions, and worse, you don't even get it. Yes, you do expect everyone to show up, all the time. And even more, you expect them to show up to other events as well. Guess what, you're not looking at 6h/daily now, you're at 12h+. That means this isn't an Empyrean LS anymore, it's a complete event LS oriented solely around VW, if you plan to do daily runs. And suddenly, you assume four runs a night instead of three. And do you think anyone at all who isn't interested in Empyreans is even remotely gonna consider joining that linkshell? Of course you do, that's your oh so delightful glass-half-full point of view.

On a side note, anyone using the term "QQ" is hard to take seriously.

Aramaic

09-30-2011, 04:14 AM

I mainly skimmed this thread cause frankly didn't want to read all the QQ'ing from people who lowmanned their Empy (Kannagi owners looking at you). But from someone who has an Almace, Ryunohige, Aegis. Yes relics once they adjusted the whole killing blow bull and numbers of mobs were made easier to get to 95 with very good bonuses. Empys easy to get 85, 90 wasn't too bad with a small group.

But the main thing that irk's me is when mythic is listed in here for time spent completing just the 75 i love how just alex is mentioned, just ignore the time I put in doing every assault twice, 100k ampoules in einjer, the 150k tokens in Nyzul. Wasting my linkshells time doing the 3 Beastmen Kings of Toau. Taking a crap ton of zeni pics (SE I hate you for making me use a camera in this game) just to get my 3 triggers, which until last update weren't 100% drop. And heaven forbid you d/c during fight to obtain key item to get mythic so you have to refarm your triggers possibly.

Than once all that was said and done dropping the 30k alex which since salvage lost popularity became a pain the arse to obtain large quantities fast. And yes I know the plate drop rate is horrid. and yes the awesome 90 Mythic which means refarming 3 tier 4 pops which is again a pain since no one does the content. So by far the work for a mythic is 10 times the work for a good usuable empy 90. Just Saying...

Insaniac

09-30-2011, 05:10 AM

I don't think anyone disagrees that the Mythic grind is disproportionate. It's in serious need of adjustment but past failures in design are no reason for future failures in design.

Monchat

09-30-2011, 05:53 AM

You're so right. Dex adds +0% WS damage on Dancing Edge. If only Dancing Edge had like a 30% Dex WSC or something hmmm.... oh wait.

The discussion was about the critical hit bonus from dex, not the ws mods. I mainly considered the melee damage for one hand in order to compare. For melee damage, 1.5DMG+15 DEX versus 25 attack, I showed that 25 attack is better unless you can reach a high dDEX with it (40~50). On anything worthwhile ( lv 100+ mobs say) I doubt you get anything more than 2~3% crit rate. DEX builds require to sacrifice a lot, you hav a high dDEX most likely on mobs weaker than EP most likely, maybe esceptions.

For WS comparison its even easier since you ask the question. If you use dancing edge it is just 1.5DMG+15*0.3DMG ( more or less 6DMG) versus 25 attack. Here its even worse. I don't remember the precise figures of DEX CHR for today's THF, maybe 150 DEX and 70 lolCHR for WS? I remember having 130 ish at 75. This gives about 55 DMG. Not even considering fSTR yet, you see that this time for WS, 1 DMG is less than 1% increase since your base DMG will be above 100.

So 1.5 DMG+15 DEX=6DMG=less than 6% damage, while 25 attack is >6%. This is for when you main hand the dagger. If its is subhand the difference is even more in favor of kila+3 since sub hand is only one of the 6~8 hits of WS [ soin this case it is 15 dex versus 25 attack for all hits but one].

The exception would be of course if you use eviceration and main hand the dagger. But it will be weaker than dacing edge unless you have a high dDEX already. And if you have a high dDEX, you most likely have high dSTR already too, ie abyssea situation where we know killas arent very good. In an abyssea situation anyway, the +15 DEX on the weapon will not do much either lol, so the discussion is pointeless( 4 DMG versus 25 attack, kila+3 clearly loses). That's what I call situational.

Summary: high dDEX ( weak mobs, abyssea etc) DMG 49 DEX +15 main hand is good. Anything worthwhile or sub hand: no.

Im not saying that this new dagger sucks, saying its sats are totally unimpressing and the only good part is occasionally deals severe damge, which could be good or bad depending on wether it procs often or not... wait and see. it is stored in the "side grade" items for me.

Concerned4FFxi

09-30-2011, 06:32 AM

The only complaint I have about plates being 100k each when the market stabilizes is that in my opinion, Mythic is still superior, because its custom to the job its for. So why should empyrean users pay more for theirs than a mythic user will for theirs.

I like the idea of seperating the casual player from the hardcore, SE must have seen the census of empyrean owners and properly corrected it by requireing 1500 plates.

Also, mythic gets occ att 3x by 99, im sure relic will recieve similiar upgrades and perhaps empyrean will get damage 3x in its aftermath. I just think that since empyrean to me isn't as good as a mythic why should it cost 150m, perhaps 75m for a 99 would be more reasonable, by doubling the current plate drop rate. Of course, as with ancient currency the prices have not really diimished as much as one might have thought they would, SE said orginally that prices of currencey would drop because although drop rates where affected the fact that broader access from the remodeled dynamis would flood the market with currencey which would reduce the overall cost of a relic. It seems that not as many people do dynamis or voidwatch, as was intended perhaps? So maybe the concept of doubling the plate drop rate would only affect a few individuals perhaps?

Return1

09-30-2011, 09:58 AM

You can't take someone serious if they use "QQ", I can't take someone serious if they're dumb enough to think 3-4 VW fights takes anywhere near 6-12 hours with farming.

The only complaint I have about plates being 100k each when the market stabilizes is that in my opinion, Mythic is still superior, because its custom to the job its for. So why should empyrean users pay more for theirs than a mythic user will for theirs.

the plates will bottom out much lower than 100k each. People are just now figuring out that the Zilart VW paths have a good drop rate on Heavy Metal Pouches, each pouch dropping 4-20 plates. The whiners on this board are too busy QQing and being douches to even use rationality.

Byrth

09-30-2011, 10:30 AM

You realize when I estimated "1 plate per person per fight" I was factoring in pouches already, right? Also, the highest plates per pouch reported thus far is 14. It bottoms out lower than Cotton pouches (4 vs. 5), so it might top out lower than them as well. I'd be unsurprised to find it's 4~16 or something instead of 5~20.

When someone shows up and goes, "hey guys, these Zilart Tier 3s have a good drop rate on pouches! We got 3 in 2 fights!" the correct response isn't: "Oh man, 3 in 2 fights? That's awesome!"
The correct response is: "Okay, 3 in 2 fights, average of 10 plates per pouch, 30 plates in 2 fights, 15 plates per fight, 100 Zilart tier 3 fights per 95 Empyrean. Lets look at what's required... Okay, he was using two Aegis and one Ochain Paladins along with 15 other players."

6 Jeuno Tier 3 fights (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/104509-Voidwatch-Discussion?p=4814685&viewfull=1#post4814685)net 25~30 plates.

Return1

09-30-2011, 12:29 PM

Cotton purses are 4-20, not 5-20, and I know for a fact pouches give more than 14, as I've seen one give 15. And if you're going to pitch 6 fights = 3 pouches, in the same thread, you can see 3 pouches in 2 fights.

Instead of QQing why do people refuse to wait at least a month after the update?

Concerned4FFxi

09-30-2011, 01:23 PM

Yes, i just seen plates in someone's bazaar for 20k each, at this rate its 30m to buy all 1500, not bad by any standard if it gets me to 99 with 3x damage aftermath. Assuming 3x damage will be the 99 aftermath.

Nobody's whinning, its a discussion and as I said if the plates were to bottom out and be 100k then that would be too much and something would need to be done about that because it would be pointless to pay that much for 1500 plates for one empyrean stage.

As I just said in this statement I've now seen them for as low as 20k each, that's 30m, a bit lower than the 75m I was willing to pay but theres always 95-99 stage so we'll see the total cost.

Byrth

09-30-2011, 01:37 PM

Wow, you should have bought them and resold for 300~400k.

Out of all the Salvage I've done for my Mythic, I have gotten pouches with:
4 Alexandrite : 0 times
5 Alexandrite : 5 times
6 Alexandrite : 9 times
7 Alexandrite : 3 times
8 Alexandrite : 3 times
9 Alexandrite : 2 times
10 Alexandrite : 7 times
11 Alexandrite : 1 time
12 Alexandrite : 6 times
13 Alexandrite : 2 times
14 Alexandrite : 9 times
15 Alexandrite : 7 times
16 Alexandrite : 7 times
17 Alexandrite : 3 times
18 Alexandrite : 8 times
19 Alexandrite : 5 times
20 Alexandrite : 3 times
21 Alexandrite : 0 times
Average : 12.45 Alexandrite per purse
If it was an even distribution from 5 to 20, predicted average : 12.5 Alexandrite per purse

So yeah, not proof that 4-Alex pouches can't happen, but I don't have it recorded and I don't recall it ever happening in a time I wasn't recording.

Insaniac

09-30-2011, 01:58 PM

Monchat

09-30-2011, 03:15 PM

Molech

09-30-2011, 05:16 PM

This is my take on the whole subject:

Voidwatch is just terribly designed, the fights are cool its more challenging than abyssea which is all fine and dandy, however, light system is what makes this not a popular event. Over the years FFXI endgame went through various transitions of full scale alliance battles of 18 people to eventually 12 then falling to 6-8 then dipping below to 2-6 man content. The real reason why so many people did emp weapons was because you no longer needed a dedicated LS, it was just about you and a mule or you to several friends working to a common goal, had nothing to do with how easy or hard it was, the content was accessible.

Enter voidwatch, due to the nature of wanting drops you need to bring lots of players or find people with lots of mules to cover all the procs, this is a giant step up after a long period of accessible content where you could do whatever you wanted with a few friends or two boxing to needing a dedicated group of around 18 to ensure you have the best chance at capping lights and this is why this event is NEVER going to be as popular as abyssea, has nothing to do with difficulty/easy-mode, the event itself is not accessible in today's game.

Post patch I spent around 50+ hrs in some of the new VW zones in the zilart area's ranging from sky to Boyahda Tree, Kuftal, Ro'maeve while skilling up various weapons, I almost always found myself around a Planar Rift and not once did I see any LS show up to these however no matter what time of day I zone into whatever zone in Abyssea its bustling with people, always busy, always people there, I think that alone speaks volumes of the actual popularity of voidwatch.

This whole plate thing is ridiculous in its current state and I don't have an emp weapon being that I had just returned to the game. Sure it might get adjusted eventually when SE loses a few subs because its hard to find dedicated people to do Voidwatch. If this event was ever going to be popular wouldn't you think every planar rift would be busy? I have never seen anyone else around doing Voidwatch or heading to those rifts when my LS was doing it during prime time NA hours but we continue to see lines and lines of LS's at most pop nm's in every zone in abyssea.

This is the classic case of SE listening to trolls who whined for months about accessible content(omg ez-mode abyssea!) to hoping to re-live the "glory nostalgia days of early LV75cap" where you needed bigger groups to clear content and ultimately it will backfire in their face. I think there will still be people who are going to torture themselves and eventually get the 95 emp weps but that still doesn't mean the event is an overwhelming success like Abyssea was.

Return1

09-30-2011, 09:29 PM

Byrth

09-30-2011, 10:17 PM

Boss pouches can give close to 100 if my memory is right.

Yeah, I've gotten 75 and 96 from them. Unfortunately, killing the boss every run, I've still only gotten 2 or 3 in all those runs.

Recorded: 70, 56, 74, 85, 75, 96

Two of those weren't mine though, but you can see that it's probably ~50-99

Molech

10-01-2011, 12:00 AM

First of all, Abysea is pretty much the best EXP zone in the game. You're saying a sign that VW fails is because more people are at EXP camps than doing Endgame content. That logic is fallacious.

Not only that, but Abyssea was pretty unpopular when it first came out because people didn't know how to work it. VW is pretty much the same. This VW update pretty much made VW into WoE without the free RR, and with better rewards. VW has been a pretty good success for an Endgame event so far.

And that's the difference. Abyssea is NOT endgame. Abyssea was designed as low level, exp content meant to get you prepared for the new endgame that was to come out in the final updates. Abyssea is over and there's still 9 levels to go after it.

People saying Endgame should be like abyssea are the same people that called Merit Parties endgame back at 75. Lame.

You missed the entire point, its not popular because you need basically need 18 people if you want the best chance at loot from voidwatch and if your after plates you will bring max people or pretty close to it. The jump of people needed from abyssea NM's to voidwatch NM's is the problem due to the nature of the lights system, for a long time you could bring a friend or two and go get stuff done in abyssea. This is a classic case of accessible content vs non-accessible content to the masses and if you don't see why then I don't know what else to tell you.

Whether or not the event is fun, challening, easy-mode has NOTHING to do with the point i'm trying to make, the point is voidwatch is never going to be an event you and 3 other friends decide to go do on a whim because of how terrible the lights system is and thats why its never going to be a popular endgame event to anyone who can't find a proper alliance to go with.

This event will never be lowmannable until they revise the proc systems, this is the beef most people have with the event. I think the event is fun but its terribly designed for "TODAY's FFXI" had this released years ago when most LS's had 18+ players and dedicated HNM ls's nobody would have a problem with this event in its current state.

Mahoro

10-01-2011, 03:49 AM

You missed the entire point, its not popular because you need basically need 18 people if you want the best chance at loot from voidwatch and if your after plates you will bring max people or pretty close to it. The jump of people needed from abyssea NM's to voidwatch NM's is the problem due to the nature of the lights system, for a long time you could bring a friend or two and go get stuff done in abyssea. This is a classic case of accessible content vs non-accessible content to the masses and if you don't see why then I don't know what else to tell you.

Whether or not the event is fun, challening, easy-mode has NOTHING to do with the point i'm trying to make, the point is voidwatch is never going to be an event you and 3 other friends decide to go do on a whim because of how terrible the lights system is and thats why its never going to be a popular endgame event to anyone who can't find a proper alliance to go with.

This event will never be lowmannable until they revise the proc systems, this is the beef most people have with the event. I think the event is fun but its terribly designed for "TODAY's FFXI" had this released years ago when most LS's had 18+ players and dedicated HNM ls's nobody would have a problem with this event in its current state.

Your point is that VW is not popular because you need 18+ people to do well on it. But this logic fails when you apply it to something like WoE. In the newly updated WoE, you need 18+ people to clear some of the newer confluxes. Yet WoE is accessible and popular to boot.

You are correct when you say VW is not easily lowmannable (barring some parts of the Bastok/Sandy path). I believe SE's intention was to have people team up and work together with little drama over lotting on loot. The focus on individual loot caskets (like WoE) is evidence of this. Since most people are unreasonably and unjustifiably afraid of large LS's these days, their alternative is to put together shout groups, groups of friends, or create a new event-specific VW LS as some people have been doing.

Zagen

10-01-2011, 04:05 AM

Your point is that VW is not popular because you need 18+ people to do well on it. But this logic fails when you apply it to something like WoE. In the newly updated WoE, you need 18+ people to clear some of the newer confluxes. Yet WoE is accessible and popular to boot.

In WoE you "need" 18 what/ever the heck you want for jobs to win... That isn't the same as VW on any level. You don't actually need 18 to get past woe zones. I've done #9 with 11 randoms and the older ones can be done with 3-6 people.

Mahoro

10-01-2011, 04:18 AM

In WoE you "need" 18 what/ever the heck you want for jobs to win... That isn't the same as VW on any level. You don't actually need 18 to get past woe zones. I've done #9 with 11 randoms and the older ones can be done with 3-6 people.

That is not relevant to my point. Regardless of what jobs you need or don't need for WoE, it is still a popular event that attracts a wide variety of people. His point was that VW would never be popular because of the numbers needed. I pointed out a popular event that attracts the Dynamis LS-sized numbers of old. The PEOPLE are there. As long as someone herds them up (via shout group or LS) and a few switch for procs/healing support, voila, you have a VW alliance.

Zagen

10-01-2011, 06:22 AM

That is not relevant to my point. Regardless of what jobs you need or don't need for WoE, it is still a popular event that attracts a wide variety of people. His point was that VW would never be popular because of the numbers needed. I pointed out a popular event that attracts the Dynamis LS-sized numbers of old. The PEOPLE are there. As long as someone herds them up (via shout group or LS) and a few switch for procs/healing support, voila, you have a VW alliance.

Its popular because you can come any job and get a chest. You can show up on a given job and mindlessly play it and still rank. So yes it does matter.

Get a group of people who mindlessly attack monsters and do as they wish on an individual level to go to VW and let me know how that works out. My bet is it won't work at all.

Arcon

10-01-2011, 06:56 AM

Zagen

10-01-2011, 07:17 AM

WoE popular? All I hear is people complaining about WoE and the only ones I know or heard of who are doing it are just doing it to sell the new scrolls from there. First time ever I'm hearing that someone actually likes WoE.
They complain but still go. Flux 7 (good for coins) Flux 9 (easy for new drops) are both a race to get in and a race to rank enough to get a chest, sometimes not so heavily but enough are still doing it that winning is a guaranteed thing. At least for now that is the case.

Falseliberty

10-01-2011, 11:45 AM

I like WoE ....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... as a smn

Orson

10-01-2011, 12:04 PM

I'm going to chime in too and express my annoyance that this is too much for a minor upgrade. Needing special currency and only realistically being able to buy your ultimate weapon with gil is what destroyed Relics and Mythics for most players. It's a practice that destroys teamwork and causes people to be selfish.

Making gil in game is the same as real life just because you work hard doesn't mean you'll make those millions of dollars to be able to afford the mansion and Ferrari. Due to competition you're most likely average which means that you'll accumulate wealth at an average rate. As it stands in FFXI unless you have a lot of gil to invest, cheat by purchasing gil, or happen to be in the right place at the right time you won't be able to buy the limited quantity of currency (AKA Heavy Plates) in a timely manner. Anyone can finish this trial but only the very privileged will do it in a realistic time frame. As it stood most players did not enjoy the prospect of spending that much time to get a major upgrade (AKA Mythic and Relic weapons.) Odds are almost no one will do this next upgrade because of time constraints.

You can hardly think that the majority of players are happy that you've turned Emp weapons into mini relics. SE needs to reconsider the amount of heavy metal plates or increase the rate and/or monsters they drop from. The majority of players are NOT happy to spend a massive amount of time competitively collecting gil to do a trial for a piece of gear!

Yarly

10-01-2011, 01:44 PM

empyrean/relic/mythic weapons should level up with your character. otherwise we're all going to quit because of the SHEER DIFFICULTY!!!!1

oh and relic weapons should also be free, they're unobtainable for people who aren't gilbuyers.

also, make mythic weapons easier to obtain too, lower the alexandrite requirement to 3 which is a lot more realistic, and remove the rest of the quests because that's just artificial difficulty. it's also near impossible to obtain the base weapon because nyzul can't be brewed so i can't solo it on my monk. i say you just trade the 3 alexandrites and the npc lets you pick from a list of mythic weapons.

wat say u guys? we should band together. say no to these impossible quests in game. it's our $13 we spend so we should get what we pays for!!!111!

Return1

10-01-2011, 02:02 PM

I'm going to break this down.

Making gil in game is the same as real life just because you work hard doesn't mean you'll make those millions of dollars to be able to afford the mansion and Ferrari.

1) No. No it's not. I have to go work for 8 hours a day for a few bucks an hour. I can farm up 1-5mil a day, in just a few hours a day, with a mule.

2) You're going with a price that is not even decided yet, aqnd basing all of your assumptions off of it.

3) You have no Idea what the upgrade to Emp weapons are, and you're already writing it off as minor, not even considering likely hidden boosts or future 99 boosts.

4) Just because YOU think you/others won't do the upgrade doesn't mean others won't.

People will make these fast and for cheap within 3 months.

I also want to point out that VW is the first Endgame content we've received since the 75 cap was raised. Endgame is supposed to be harder, since that's the point of endgame. Endgame is not designed for everyone. This is a good thing. Everyone's getting something. Everyone has access to a passably strong weapon, and the dedicated get stronger weapons. The End.

Atomic_Skull

10-01-2011, 02:20 PM

I think that there should be a few near impossible goals in this game, not everything should be like this but there should be at least a few things like this for the hardcore players.

MarkovChain

10-01-2011, 02:34 PM

ntent we've received since the 75 cap was raised. Endgame is supposed to be harder, since that's the point of endgame. Endgame is not designed for everyone. This is a good thing. Everyone's getting something. Everyone has access to a passably strong weapon, and the dedicated get stronger weapons. The End.

Voidwatch is not endgame it's a bcnm lol. Faceplam. The gear is a downgrade/situational and it's only worth doing it to sell the crap. I think you don't know what endgame is.

Kimble

10-01-2011, 03:37 PM

Voidwatch is not endgame it's a bcnm lol. Faceplam. The gear is a downgrade/situational and it's only worth doing it to sell the crap. I think you don't know what endgame is.

What is end game then? Isnt it content you do when you reach the end of your leveling?

Return1

10-01-2011, 04:05 PM

Voidwatch is not endgame it's a bcnm lol. Faceplam. The gear is a downgrade/situational and it's only worth doing it to sell the crap. I think you don't know what endgame is.

You're retarded. There's going to be at least 4 parts to VW. These fights are pretty much 95-99 only, and the parts 3 and 4 will be geared towards 99s most likely.

I would just like to once again point out that you're stupid. It's a BCNM so it's not endgame? How is Sky/Sea/ZNM/Ouryuu/BahamutV2/Einherjar?

All of those involve you spawning a powerful mob and killing it, just like VW.

In fact, VW has its own powered up version of Kirin in Qilin.

Yugl

10-01-2011, 07:02 PM

I love how people are complaining about how awful the current EMP 95 upgrade is, but will argue against pooling because everyone is going to really go for it. Newsflash, most people will probably give up from QQ till the price inevitably falls through the floor.

Idk who brought you here, but they need to return you to wherever you were before.

MarkovChain

10-01-2011, 08:44 PM

All of those involve you spawning a powerful mob and killing it, just like VW.

In fact, VW has its own powered up version of Kirin in Qilin.

Yes that's what I thought, you think you are killing big things. Let me guess. You were in a HNMLs, thought you were important, and this time you see voidwatch is the only alliance event and decide on your own that it's something serious. SE themselves made it sure to prevent the playerbase to rush to it :

- no good gear
- not the best gear
- no thing great for the best jobs
- extremely situationnal crap

You realize dynamis NMs drops are mostly superior to viodwatch ? Oneiros grip for instance. Does your ally have this kind of good gear or are you going to have your LS spam VW until you get mats to craft gear that you will not get from VW but from the AH since you will have to sell the mat and the gear doesn't drop directly from VW. VW is fail on many levels. Enjoy your 1.4% TP body lol.

Gokku

10-02-2011, 03:05 AM

holy hell i spend 4 days driving and this thread blows up ill update the empty space tonight once ive shifted through it all and look on AH for any price listings.

Return1

10-02-2011, 03:47 AM

*** the quality of gear doesn't determine if an event is Endgame, the levels do.

- no good gear
- not the best gear
- no thing great for the best jobs
- extremely situationnal crap

What?

Ganesha's Mala (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Ganesha%27s_Mala)

Langeleik (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Langeleik)

Strendu Ring (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Strendu_Ring)

Tyrant's Ring (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Tyrant%27s_Ring)

Mekira (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Mekira_Meikogai)

Mantis Eye (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Mantis_Eye)

Lenore's (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Lenore%27s_Hairpin)

Oynos (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Oynos_Knife)

Eurus (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Eurus%27_Ledelsens)

Magma (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Magma_Gauntlets)

Omphalos (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Omphalos_Bullet)

Heka (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Heka%27s_Kalasiris)

Grotesque Cesti (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Grotesque_Cesti)

Romanus (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Romanus_Cape)

Wiglen (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Wiglen_Gorget)

Bruiser (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Bruiser%27s_Earring)

Aliyat (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Aliyat_Chakram)

Dilaram (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Dilaram%27s_Sollerets)

Toci (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Toci%27s_Harness)

Ace's (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Ace%27s_Mail)

Fajin (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Fajin_Boots)

There's lots of good gear there, most of it is the hands down best for what it does on one or more of the jobs that can equip it, and there are no "Best Jobs".

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

Zagen

10-02-2011, 04:34 AM

Your list had some issues:

Ganesha's Mala (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Ganesha%27s_Mala) - Good

Langeleik (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Langeleik) - Good

Strendu Ring (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Strendu_Ring) - Good

Tyrant's Ring (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Tyrant%27s_Ring) - AHable so no need to do the event for it.

Mekira (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Mekira_Meikogai) - Situational at best.

Mantis Eye (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Mantis_Eye) - Situational again.

Lenore's (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Lenore%27s_Hairpin) - Why is this here?

Oynos (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Oynos_Knife) - AHable so no need to do the event for it.

Eurus (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Eurus%27_Ledelsens) - AHable and only good on RDM, COR, RNG and really it only matters to a DD RDM.

Magma (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Magma_Gauntlets) - AHable so no need to do the event for it.

Omphalos (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Omphalos_Bullet) - This is the best QD bullet can't argue with it being wanted by CORs.

Heka (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Heka%27s_Kalasiris) - Cool if you're not a WHM and looking to pimp out your curing set.

Grotesque Cesti (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Grotesque_Cesti) - AHable so no need to do the event for it. Nice for Soloing I guess though I'd rather look at Magian/Emp/WoE.

Romanus (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Romanus_Cape) - AHable so no need to do the event for it. Really only great for BLU Whisker build but at 90 the build already 1 shot mobs so not even needed then.

Wiglen (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Wiglen_Gorget) - AHable so no need to do the event for it. Situational.

Bruiser (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Bruiser%27s_Earring) - AHable so no need to do the event for it.

Aliyat (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Aliyat_Chakram) - Pretty decent though situational.

Dilaram (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Dilaram%27s_Sollerets) - Good

Toci (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Toci%27s_Harness) - Good

Ace's (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Ace%27s_Mail) - Good

Fajin (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Fajin_Boots) - Situationally good.

VW really has such amazing gear options >.> Of ths list if you include situational items that's 12 that are worth doing VW for, and even then some of those situational items won't be used much so its really 8 items.

How are those going to keep people happy while one person is getting their 1500 plates?

Also what happens when people don't have jobs for those items so they have no value?

What about when everyone gets those items and has nothing to benefit from the event aside from helping someone else out with plates and gil from the AHables (Gil payouts aren't as appealing to most players anymore)?

You mention doing other events to entice people to do VW but the more events you add, the less VW you can do, and in turn the longer finishing 1 weapon takes. Which makes the whole thing even worse.

MarkovChain

10-02-2011, 06:37 AM

*** the quality of gear doesn't determine if an event is Endgame, the levels do.

Of course the quality is the most important part...

What?

Ganesha's Mala (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Ganesha%27s_Mala)

Mathematically proven to be inferior to AF3+2 to monk.

Langeleik (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Langeleik)

Is this a joke. What is a Gjallarhorn ¿¿ 2 weeks of work. What is a daurdabla ? Two week of work. Facepalm.

Strendu Ring (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Strendu_Ring)

Nice inferior ring for your local BLM. lolcor etc. Don't get me started on this. Inbefore accuracy matter and an argument to prefer this over real magic accuracy rings.

Tyrant's Ring (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Tyrant%27s_Ring)

Rajas ring , eponas ring, oneiros annulet.

Mekira (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Mekira_Meikogai)

Look at my sig. This piece of crap is the most useless piece of gear I have ever seen.

Mantis Eye (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Mantis_Eye)

Sidegrade in case your LS sucks too much and doesn't already have double daurdabla bards maybe ? You know usseful gear etc.

Lenore's (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Lenore%27s_Hairpin)

lolwut -enmity

Oynos (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Oynos_Knife)

This is junk obviously

Eurus (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Eurus%27_Ledelsens)

Parry +8 go.

Magma (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Magma_Gauntlets)
situational and cheap at AH, plus lol @ the jobs
Omphalos (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Omphalos_Bullet)
lolcor, I hear they finally beat PUP in the last census

Heka (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Heka%27s_Kalasiris)

I hear WHM has cure V,VI curaga IV,V and caps cure potency. Alos I'm pretty sure RDM,SCH and SMN are no longer healer due to SE deciding so.

Grotesque Cesti (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Grotesque_Cesti)
you must be joking

Romanus (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Romanus_Cape)
200k. I don't think anyone with half a brain would team up with a 18 man alliance to farm a 200k item...

Wiglen (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Wiglen_Gorget)

Anyone gearing this instead of twilight torque is dumb.

Bruiser (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Bruiser%27s_Earring)
mathematically proven to be inferior to kewl earrings.

Aliyat (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Aliyat_Chakram)

I hear THF pull in voidwatch.

Dilaram (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Dilaram%27s_Sollerets)

crit -8% lol

Toci (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Toci%27s_Harness)

I think you pointed the only side grade outside of impetus and only when acc is capped, aka you purposely don't use sushi nor madrigals, and you also need the head piece. All this for 2% damage up maybe, but the fact that real player have 6 songs if they need acc makes it useless. Have your CORs level BRD and farm daurdablas already.

Ace's (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Ace%27s_Mail)
no
Fajin (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Fajin_Boots)
lol

There's lots of good gear there, most of it is the hands down best for what it does on one or more of the jobs that can equip it, and there are no "Best Jobs".
I see 1 situational upgrade, and plenty of junk.

xbobx

10-02-2011, 06:50 AM

maybe SE is trying to get more subscriptions by making this game very Gil seller friendly. Get gil sellers back get monthly payments from them, get to report greater profit.

Either that or SE is back to their old pathetic grinding ways because that idiot at the helm

Kimble

10-02-2011, 06:52 AM

So what, if your group doesnt have 2x daurdabla bards, it sucks?

Wasnt it also already proven that tanaka never left?

MarkovChain

10-02-2011, 06:59 AM

So what, if your group doesnt have 2x daurdabla bards, it sucks?

If you claim to do endgame, farm "good gear", and act as a pseudo elitist, it's the least I expect. Last I checked having 2 madrigals beats gaining 4 accuracy in a slot. Complain to SE for making game breaking empy and AF3+2 and failing at releasing better stuff.

MDenham

10-02-2011, 08:39 AM

Heka (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Heka%27s_Kalasiris)

I hear WHM has cure V,VI curaga IV,V and caps cure potency.It frees up another gear slot from having to be used for cure potency, so it's got that going for it at least (outside of Aby, this + cure staff + AF3 +2 head + Oretenia's Cape = it works; at 99, you shouldn't even need the cape anymore unless they decide to have the staff be 24% at 99, which would be lame and entirely expected).

And it is at least a better piece than a Facio body, which is the only other way you're pulling off 50% in four pieces. Enjoy putting on either a Fast Cast or MND earring instead.

Neisan_Quetz

10-02-2011, 09:11 AM

Staff + head + neck + roundel + augur's hands + back, use Emp body, that becomes a curaga macro piece.

Sevvy

10-02-2011, 09:29 AM

lol cracks me up. emps were very easy to make and now people crying cause they are going to be difficult. viva old ffxi!!

Atomic_Skull

10-02-2011, 09:29 AM

Zagen

10-02-2011, 09:35 AM

Fajin Boots

Attack-4 Evasion+4 Movement speed +18%

Don't even try to say that these are "situational" or a "sidegrade" because they are a 67% improvement over Strider/Skadi and if you have them you will be wearing them 95% of the time.
Either your THF/RNG is only for running around or are horribly geared if 95% of the time you'd be wearing movement gear instead of actual DD relevant feet.

Neisan_Quetz

10-02-2011, 09:35 AM

DA: If you're in abyssea - additional movespeed over trotter/skadi doesn't matter, if you're in VW - Thf doesn't matter.

That's going to be his answer, believe it.

Atomic_Skull

10-02-2011, 09:40 AM

Either your THF/RNG is only for running around or are horribly geared if 95% of the time you'd be wearing movement gear instead of actual DD relevant feet.

95% of the time on any job you will be running somwhere, don't try to pretend otherwise.

DA: If you're in abyssea - additional movespeed over trotter/skadi doesn't matter

Movement speed from Atma does not stack with movement speed from gear. Even if if did 12+18% would be better than 12+12%.

Where is applies is irrelevant anyway, Strider Boots used to sell for 20-50 million back when they were the only option for a reason and it had nothing to do with events. It's because they save you time everywhere.

Zagen

10-02-2011, 09:55 AM

95% of the time on any job you will be running somwhere, don't try to pretend otherwise
Sorry my THF at least doesn't move around that much. None of my jobs do really since anything we do involves a good amount of time in one place doing the same thing over and over and its takes 5-20min to get any camp so no I don't spend that much time running.

Edit: Lets say your THF does run that much, so after you get those feet what's the point of helping someone else get their Emp done while you wait in line? After all Return1's line method has you waiting for 1500 items per player instead of 1 per player like the old HNM gear of 75

Atomic_Skull

10-02-2011, 10:12 AM

Sorry my THF at least doesn't move around that much. None of my jobs do really since anything we do involves a good amount of time in one place doing the same thing over and over and its takes 5-20min to get any camp so no I don't spend that much time running

If all you do is log in for events and then log back out I guess I can see why movement speed wouldn't be important to you. There are a lot more things to do in to FFXI than fighting things for loot however. And many of those things involve running all over the place.

Edit: Lets say your THF does run that much, so after you get those feet what's the point of helping someone else get their Emp done while you wait in line? After all Return1's line method has you waiting for 1500 items per player instead of 1 per player like the old HNM gear of 75

lolwut? I'm keeping my plates for myself thanks. I will certainly keep doing voidwatch for more plates for upgrading or selling however.

Zagen

10-02-2011, 10:18 AM

If all you do is log in for events and then log back out I guess I can see why movement speed wouldn't be important to you. There are a lot more things to do in to FFXI than fighting things for loot however. And many of those things involve running all over the place.
If you mean those stupid quests/missions that add length by having you run to X then Y then back to X, etc. I did those on DNC because 25% > 18% well 12% at the time. I can see you point in them being wanted, that however doesn't change them from being situational, time to run = situation when you wear them.

Though I'm pretty sure the odds of getting 18 of those feet is higher than getting 1500 plates first. Which goes back to the question of why I or any other player would stick around to help one person get 1500 plates before anyone else.

lolwut? I'm keeping my plates for myself thanks. I will certainly keep doing voidwatch for more plates for upgrading or selling however.

Have you not been reading Return1's logic that people will be willing to spam VW over and over to help 1 person get 1500 plates then move on to the next one? Your comment proves you aren't willing to go by that rule structure which is the point. The only appeal VW has in repeatedly doing it is everyone keeping their own plates making it an extremely slow upgrade stage for what may truly be a lack luster upgrade/

Atomic_Skull

10-02-2011, 10:57 AM

Have you not been reading Return1's logic that people will be willing to spam VW over and over to help 1 person get 1500 plates then move on to the next one?

Read it yes. Paid attention, not really.

Your comment proves you aren't willing to go by that rule structure which is the point.

Irrelevant to me because that isn't what I was talking about.

The only appeal VW has in repeatedly doing it is everyone keeping their own plates making it an extremely slow upgrade stage for what may truly be a lack luster upgrade/

I never said that was not the case.

Gokku

10-02-2011, 12:09 PM

been reading all day on and off , return is retarded i want picks of the same group of people doing VW with you only and you not paying them more then 100k per plate , this includes documentation of people getting and opening ever pouch. until you can do that your talking out your ass and your delusional to think people would seriously give you everything and be 100% honest to you.

Gokku

10-02-2011, 12:40 PM

OP has been updated with the most up to point prices ive found ill comb the thread for any missed listings , feel free to post more.

Orson

10-02-2011, 01:19 PM

I'm going to break this down.

1) No. No it's not. I have to go work for 8 hours a day for a few bucks an hour. I can farm up 1-5mil a day, in just a few hours a day, with a mule.

2) You're going with a price that is not even decided yet, aqnd basing all of your assumptions off of it.

3) You have no Idea what the upgrade to Emp weapons are, and you're already writing it off as minor, not even considering likely hidden boosts or future 99 boosts.

4) Just because YOU think you/others won't do the upgrade doesn't mean others won't.

People will make these fast and for cheap within 3 months.

I also want to point out that VW is the first Endgame content we've received since the 75 cap was raised. Endgame is supposed to be harder, since that's the point of endgame. Endgame is not designed for everyone. This is a good thing. Everyone's getting something. Everyone has access to a passably strong weapon, and the dedicated get stronger weapons. The End.

I hate to feed trolls but....

People who use point form arguments tend to be trying to present their opinion as fact. All this does is make you come off as a know it all. As I pointed out Relics and such were content that was done by very few. There's no indication that others won't see this as anything different than a Relic. Also the general consensus on most forums is that this trial is not only unpopular but will take even the most avid player a long time to finish.

You don't seem to understand how supply and demand work. Just like any limited commodity market, item prices will go up not only on the number of people in the market but will adjust to how much people are earning. If the average player can earn X gil per week then the plates price will be set where him/her will not be able to afford that goal in a reasonable time frame. With the estimates of how many heavy plates are coming into the market even big gil makers/buyers will take a long time to finish the trial in question. Your excuse of "I can make 1-5 mil in a few hrs" means very little because likely you are not earning much more than the average player per hr. You might have more time to spend on the game than the average player but overall the total time you spend on the trial is likely about the same. So your whole argument revolves not around what's a reasonable amount of effort but that you have enough time to waste or are willing to exploit people, so screw everyone else.

To say they shouldn't make the majority of content for everyone after the leveling portion of the game is only embraced by a small group of people with superiority complexes based on having more free time than their fellow co-players. Unsurprisingly this group of players are very loud about how the game isn't hardcore enough for them because the only time they're happy is when they have a visible and numerical advantage over the average player. It's not enough that they finish content faster than anyone else they feel the need to be "superior."

It is funny that you think content should be designed that only targets a small % of the population of FFXI. From a marketing aspect that's ridiculous and not financially sound. Abyssea was a smash hit. Why? The gear was awesome and was readily available without fighting others for the privilege to get it (for the most part.) Now look at something like Chocobo Racing I bet you thought that was a waste of development right? What about the Evolith system created solely to promote Synergy? Wouldn't it have been more intelligent and keep more subscriptions to put those efforts into fixing stuff like inventory issues or raising the level cap sooner? Nah that's stupid, Chocobo Racing obviously made a small group happy so it made the game better. That's the attitude that has time and time again hurt this game. Always satisfy the largest groups first then move onto the more fringe elements if you have time.

The other common mistake is equating length of task to difficulty. It's not like FFXI is hard. Even VW can be done by most average players with the proper leadership and study/education. The task of collecting an item that costs gil that can be accrued simply by having spare time solo is difficult how? Sure it takes dedication to complete such tasks but apart from that it doesn't make you better at the game. The only possible things that make you "superior" is you have had luck using the in-game economy, have generous friends, and/or have plenty of real life money to spend.

Mahoro

10-02-2011, 02:05 PM

Its popular because you can come any job and get a chest. You can show up on a given job and mindlessly play it and still rank. So yes it does matter.

Get a group of people who mindlessly attack monsters and do as they wish on an individual level to go to VW and let me know how that works out. My bet is it won't work at all.

I never said it would work. I specifically said you would need someone to herd them up (via shout group or LS) and have some switch jobs. There have been plenty of shout groups for VW on my server, and I know people who have reached T3 on Jeuno path specifically through shout groups. Molech's point was that VW would never be popular because of the numbers of people needed, assuming that all content needs to be 2/3-mannable to be successful, but that simply isn't the case.

And I don't think WoE is popular because you can come any job and get a chest. I think it's popular because of the rewards.

Return1

10-02-2011, 02:11 PM

Mathematically proven to be inferior to AF3+2 to monk.

What? MNK can't even Equip Ganesha's Mala.

Is this a joke. What is a Gjallarhorn ¿¿ 2 weeks of work. What is a daurdabla ? Two week of work. Facepalm.

Less than 1% of the Game's population has a Gjallarhorn, and what does Daurdabla have to do with anything? The March+ is awesome and to my knowledge the only other +3 March aside from Gjallarhorn.

Nice inferior ring for your local BLM. lolcor etc. Don't get me started on this. Inbefore accuracy matter and an argument to prefer this over real magic accuracy rings.

Inferior to what? Inside Abyssea it's pretty much the best nuking ring, and it's useful for some Blue Nukes and Magic WSes.

Rajas ring , eponas ring, oneiros annulet.

You don't even get why people would want a Tyrant Ring...Rajas is the other finger, and the only good STP alternative is Hoard Ring, which is worse in comparison.

Look at my sig. This piece of crap is the most useless piece of gear I have ever seen.

The Mekira is one of the best Physical damage reduction bodies in the game, and the best for several jobs that can equip it. On top of that, it's good for Torcleaver and HS off the top of my head.

Sidegrade in case your LS sucks too much and doesn't already have double daurdabla bards maybe ? You know usseful gear etc.

You're showing a distinct lack of intelligence. Hold on, let me bring 2 Gjallarhorn+Daurdabla BRDs to every single thing I go to do in this game. Soloing/lowmanning be damned.

lolwut -enmity

It's the TP reduction, not the enmity down.

This is junk obviously

The knife that gives a 3minute Haste effect upon procing and can be removed after the proc and the effect will remain.

lolcor, I hear they finally beat PUP in the last census

Again you're showing a lack of intelligence. COR has become very popular thanks to Wildfire, buffs actually being needed again, and new rolls. This bullet is head and shoulders above all else.

I hear WHM has cure V,VI curaga IV,V and caps cure potency. Alos I'm pretty sure RDM,SCH and SMN are no longer healer due to SE deciding so.

It's good for all Cure Casting Time builds, and good for enfeeble potency builds, SS builds for something like BRD, and Cure potency for other mages besides WHM. Believe it or not, these mages can contribute to curing and even main heal certain things depending on playstyles.

you must be joking

Grotesque Cesti have a higher base DPS on them for MNKs than Taipan +3. They have a low damage, 100% proc on Drain, making them good for Soloing if you don't have VS.

Anyone gearing this instead of twilight torque is dumb.

Twilight Torque is less Physical Damage reduction and has no place in regen builds. Do you even think before you retort?

mathematically proven to be inferior to kewl earrings.

Gives PUP a H2H tier, and it's the best all jobs earring.

I hear THF pull in voidwatch.

ITT: You can only use VW drops in VW. True story.

crit -8% lol

Doesn't matter on non-crit WSes.

I think you pointed the only side grade outside of impetus and only when acc is capped, aka you purposely don't use sushi nor madrigals, and you also need the head piece. All this for 2% damage up maybe, but the fact that real player have 6 songs if they need acc makes it useless. Have your CORs level BRD and farm daurdablas already.

It's for WSes.

I take it you must be a troll as I'm fairly certain someone with that level of...handicap couldn't figure out how to even submit a post, so well played to you sir.

As for people saying some drops are AHable: It doesn't matter. It still comes from the event, so -someone- has to do it for you to get them, and if none are up your only other option is to do the fight yourself.

Mahoro

10-02-2011, 02:28 PM

I don't think Pchan is even reading the stats on some of these, he is just talking to talk. He also thinks RDM, SCH, and it seems now COR should be deleted from the game. :P I think if it were up to him, there would only be WAR, MNK, WHM and BLM in the game. His answer to "I want X gear for Y job is to take Z job instead"

Zagen

10-02-2011, 03:07 PM

And I don't think WoE is popular because you can come any job and get a chest. I think it's popular because of the rewards.

Rewards? You mean really low chance of getting a new spells/gear? Or the amazing coin drop rate that even when spamming #7 you average less than before the changes?

I did flux 9 4 times last night to try it out and see the drops (coins, spells, etc). I got 0 notable drops (2 coins though). That's 4 hours, can you farm more than 2.5mil gil in 4 hours? Because I can, meaning getting Comet to drop from 9 would have cost me gil not made me gil if I was going there for the rewards, well money rewards.

WoE is easy and requires no real strategy that happens to have drops people want. It isn't the drops themselves but the combination of it being easy and having drops of value to the player base.

Arcon

10-02-2011, 04:14 PM

Fajin Boots

Attack-4 Evasion+4 Movement speed +18%

Don't even try to say that these are "situational" or a "sidegrade" because they are a 67% improvement over Strider/Skadi and if you have them you will be wearing them 95% of the time.

Toci's harness

STR+13 DEX+13 Accuracy+10 Attack+10 "Double Attack"+3% Sphere: Haste+2% Set: "Triple Attack"+3%

Best Mercy Stroke body, period.

Whirlwind Dirs

STR+12 INT-12 "Double Attack"+3%

Best Mercy Stroke legs, period.

You don't get Pimpchan's logic. Why play THF, when you can DD better on WAR? They're just TH whores after all. Why have RDM when you can cure better on WHM? They're just refresh whores after all.

According to him FF runs on only three jobs, with others just boosting those jobs' abilities. He doesn't get why some people even play this game, or games at all.

Either your THF/RNG is only for running around or are horribly geared if 95% of the time you'd be wearing movement gear instead of actual DD relevant feet.

It's because you run around most of the time, sometimes even during battle. Movement speed is one of the most worthwhile investments you can have in this game. Think about how it even changes the gameplay of some jobs. If you get a Novio over Herald's, you don't understand the capabilities of a BLM or SCH. And Novio used to be one of the most expensive items in the game (considering current economy affected almost everything, it probably still is, bar relics and such "upgrade" items).

It saves time, which is a lot in this time sink of a game, but it's also useful for kiting/holding strategies and most importantly, almost never having to cast sneak/invisible (and, as a nice side effect, you get to learn first hand which mobs move at Flee speed.. hello, Manticores).

MarkovChain

10-02-2011, 05:41 PM

Mahoro

10-02-2011, 05:43 PM

Rewards? You mean really low chance of getting a new spells/gear? Or the amazing coin drop rate that even when spamming #7 you average less than before the changes?

I did flux 9 4 times last night to try it out and see the drops (coins, spells, etc). I got 0 notable drops (2 coins though). That's 4 hours, can you farm more than 2.5mil gil in 4 hours? Because I can, meaning getting Comet to drop from 9 would have cost me gil not made me gil if I was going there for the rewards, well money rewards.

WoE is easy and requires no real strategy that happens to have drops people want. It isn't the drops themselves but the combination of it being easy and having drops of value to the player base.

This is getting away from my original point re: the popularity of Voidwatch, but just wanted to say a really low chance of getting new spells/gear obviously isn't stopping WoE's popularity at the moment. Nor does it usually stop people in this game as much as they like to think it does. Just see the years of competition for King Behemoth and some of the soul-crushing drop rates of Sea Torques of yesteryear.

EDIT: I actually agree with your point that people won't stick around to help 1 person get 1500 plates. However, enough people have Emps who can band together to do these fights that I imagine they will be spammed for a long time to come. I imagine those are the same people who wouldn't shy away from an event just because it isn't as "easy" as WoE; after all, I wouldn't call some Emps easy to get. Not to mention VW Part 3 and 4 will probably have additional Heavy Metal Plate sources.

MarkovChain

10-02-2011, 05:58 PM

What? MNK can't even Equip Ganesha's Mala.
This neck sucks because quadruple attack is only useful on the first 1 or 2 hits for x builds.

Less than 1% of the Game's population has a Gjallarhorn, and what does Daurdabla have to do with anything? The March+ is awesome and to my knowledge the only other +3 March aside from Gjallarhorn.

Gjalla horn is easy to farm. EASY. And better. Look like your awesome group doesn't have basic gear.

You don't even get why people would want a Tyrant Ring...Rajas is the other finger, and the only good STP alternative is Hoard Ring, which is worse in comparison.
You don't need it for any X build unless your gear is junk.

The Mekira is one of the best Physical damage reduction bodies in the game, and the best for several jobs that can equip it. On top of that, it's good for Torcleaver and HS off the top of my head.

No it's not? PLD body is vastly better.

You're showing a distinct lack of intelligence. Hold on, let me bring 2 Gjallarhorn+Daurdabla BRDs to every single thing I go to do in this game. Soloing/lowmanning be damned.

It's actually use of intelligence, because whenever you bring a brd it should at least be a daurdabla.

It's the TP reduction, not the enmity down.
|/QUOTE]

It must be awesome in VW where mob get TP instantly. If you care about TP you don't fee TP.

[QUOTE]
The knife that gives a 3minute Haste effect upon procing and can be removed after the proc and the effect will remain.

That's why it sucks.

Again you're showing a lack of intelligence. COR has become very popular thanks to Wildfire, buffs actually being needed again, and new rolls. This bullet is head and shoulders above all else.

Nope COR is not popular it's the second least played job in the game. 2% of the population play it.

It's good for all Cure Casting Time builds, and good for enfeeble potency builds, SS builds for something like BRD, and Cure potency for other mages besides WHM. Believe it or not, these mages can contribute to curing and even main heal certain things depending on playstyles.
Cure V is instant and it's the only spell used outside of aby bro. Trying too hard.

Grotesque Cesti have a higher base DPS on them for MNKs than Taipan +3. They have a low damage, 100% proc on Drain, making them good for Soloing if you don't have VS.

No they suck, the DPS is worse than taipan for one because you somehow forget STR and attack (which is the only reason to go after them), and for two I have no idea why you are even comparing this to taipan when empyrean exists and destroys everthing while being duoable. Gogo farming an inferior weapon with 18 persons when you could duo the best weapon. Is that how you plan on recruiting people ?

Twilight Torque is less Physical Damage reduction and has no place in regen builds. Do you even think before you retort?

Correct, and since twilight is inventory saver, and due to the fact that capping PDT is easy, this item is worthless.

Gives PUP a H2H tier, and it's the best all jobs earring.

And ? you have no clue what H2H tier means. When you have 100 base damage 1H2H dmg only is 1%. Their are vastly sperior earring for both jobs. It's a side grade of easir earring. It's a downgrade of attack/regain or acc/regain wotg rewards, which anyone serious about monk shoul have.

Doesn't matter on non-crit WSes.

non crit WS don't matter. SE decided so.

As for people saying some drops are AHable: It doesn't matter. It still comes from the event, so -someone- has to do it for you to get them, and if none are up your only other option is to do the fight yourself.

And ...? It means you cannot use this as a motivation to farm that gear. You mad.

Kimble

10-02-2011, 06:05 PM

Just wondering, what events do you find worth doing? I'd assume Dynamis, anything else?

noodles355

10-02-2011, 06:32 PM

Mercy stroke, what is it.
Now if you use dancing edge .Whenever I think you couldn't get any more retarded, you make another post and my mind is blown yet again.

What you said was true, but completely irrelevant. That can be said for half your posts actually. The other half could be labled as not true, and also irrelevant.

noodles355

10-02-2011, 06:41 PM

The discussion was about the critical hit bonus from dex, not the ws mods. I mainly considered the melee damage for one hand in order to compare. For melee damage, 1.5DMG+15 DEX versus 25 attack, I showed that 25 attack is better unless you can reach a high dDEX with it (40~50). On anything worthwhile ( lv 100+ mobs say) I doubt you get anything more than 2~3% crit rate. DEX builds require to sacrifice a lot, you hav a high dDEX most likely on mobs weaker than EP most likely, maybe esceptions.

For WS comparison its even easier since you ask the question. If you use dancing edge it is just 1.5DMG+15*0.3DMG ( more or less 6DMG) versus 25 attack. Here its even worse. I don't remember the precise figures of DEX CHR for today's THF, maybe 150 DEX and 70 lolCHR for WS? I remember having 130 ish at 75. This gives about 55 DMG. Not even considering fSTR yet, you see that this time for WS, 1 DMG is less than 1% increase since your base DMG will be above 100.

So 1.5 DMG+15 DEX=6DMG=less than 6% damage, while 25 attack is >6%. This is for when you main hand the dagger. If its is subhand the difference is even more in favor of kila+3 since sub hand is only one of the 6~8 hits of WS [ soin this case it is 15 dex versus 25 attack for all hits but one].

The exception would be of course if you use eviceration and main hand the dagger. But it will be weaker than dacing edge unless you have a high dDEX already. And if you have a high dDEX, you most likely have high dSTR already too, ie abyssea situation where we know killas arent very good. In an abyssea situation anyway, the +15 DEX on the weapon will not do much either lol, so the discussion is pointeless( 4 DMG versus 25 attack, kila+3 clearly loses). That's what I call situational.

Summary: high dDEX ( weak mobs, abyssea etc) DMG 49 DEX +15 main hand is good. Anything worthwhile or sub hand: no.

Im not saying that this new dagger sucks, saying its sats are totally unimpressing and the only good part is occasionally deals severe damge, which could be good or bad depending on wether it procs often or not... wait and see. it is stored in the "side grade" items for me.
Some nice info. I was just picking a hole in the "Adds +0% dmg to WS".

Byrth

10-02-2011, 11:28 PM

There are some nice voidwatch pieces, and fortunately most of them are buyable so I don't have to do repetitive fights for shit drops. Did Zilart Tier 1/2 last night with two characters and made about 1mil, then bought a Mollusca Mantle that someone else got on the run and ended up down money for the night.

Return1

10-03-2011, 02:49 AM

Seriously? MarkovChain is Pchan? Dear lord how did I not notice...Now I just feel silly, Pchan is the one of the top 3 trolls of FFXI.

Well I'm done with that.

My point that I've been trying to make is simple. This is endgame. It should be harder. Upgrades shouldn't get EASIER as you go along. On top of that, there should be some trials your average player can't do/doesn't want to do. Empyreans please casuals because they got something nice, and the 99 update should give the more dedicated something to do. It appeals to everyone but those that think they're the only one's whose opinions and gear matters.

The plates aren't even hard to get. People will team up to get them. They can be spammed as easily as Abyssea NMs. People keep saying people won't help each other, and that's why it'll take you longer to get yours. 18 people working together to get 1 emp upgrade at a time will get 18 95s done long before 18 individuals will get their 95s. This is the reason and motivation used to make a shell like I stated. People go on about me using people, but I have no intention of using them to get myself a 95 upgrade. I'd much rather help my friends get what they want, and make more friends along the way. I guess people aren't used to others not shitting all over them every chance they get.

Doombringer

10-03-2011, 09:34 AM

i'm starting to see the plates in port jeuno for 500k.

just an update

Return1

10-03-2011, 11:45 AM

You'd have to be stupid to pay 500k for them. People pricing them for 500k are just showing they have plates or trying to cash in off a new event. Sorta like how people were posting Blizzaja up for 5mil. Some people were actually dumb enough to pay 5mil for a shiny new thing they found, but the price has settled to about 900k. Same thing for Plates. By 2 months we'll see a going price of under 100k a plate.

Atomic_Skull

10-03-2011, 12:40 PM

It's too bad that nobody use THF as DD and everyone uses THF as Treasure Hunter whore.

Mercy stroke, what is it. The truth is that someone semi serious about THF should be targetting it.

Pchan is a troll, nothing he says is consistent he just says whatever will stir up shit to get attention. He doesn't care that the attention is negative or that he's a verbal punching bag in every thread he posts in. It's all about attention. He's like a kid eating worms in class to get people to look at him.

Dancing Edge

Wait, people still use Dancing Edge. Good god why? WHYYYYYYYYYY?

WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT?

noodles355

10-03-2011, 01:18 PM

Byrth

10-03-2011, 01:27 PM

Dancing Edge is still better for Dancers by quite a bit, I think, mostly due to gear selection and base stats.

Atomic_Skull

10-03-2011, 03:34 PM

Because I'm pretty sure it's still stronger than Evisceration at 100%TP, although I could be wrong. It only seems to average higher for me at over 150-200ish TP. Slightly different WS sets of course for both.

Edit: Outside Abyssea of course.

For me Evisceration is anywhere from a bit higher than DE to much higher depending on crits. DE might be better for SATA but I haven't used either for SATA for many years now.

noodles355

10-03-2011, 04:08 PM

I'l start parsing properly on the remaining dagger trials (mindless mob culling) and in dynamis etc, but so far DE has looked to average higher, and be more consistant. Been seeing 800-2000 EVs, averaging 1200ish, and 1100-1500 DEs, averaging 1300ish. It's all eyeballed of course so not actually worth anything, but it's given me an incentive to parse the 2 WS now outside abyssea.

Yugl

10-03-2011, 04:13 PM

Or post optimal sets for both > Crank out values.

Monchat

10-03-2011, 04:59 PM

Pchan is a troll, nothing he says is consistent he just says whatever will stir up shit to get attention.

Wait, people still use Dancing Edge. Good god why? WHYYYYYYYYYY?

WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT?

lol, who is the troll. Hint: exit abyssea.

noodles355

10-03-2011, 05:58 PM

Putting it into kinematics's spreadsheet, I get 543.593 Evisceration, 431.531 Dancing Edge. Wow. Not only is Evisceration stronger, but it is by a conciderable margin. I didn't use optimal gear, that was my current/short term aims gear.

Plugging in what I think is optimal (from what's available on the spreadsheet) I get 852.515 for Evisceration and 665.853 for DE. Gear used was:
Evis:
Mandau(90)/Str Kila+2/Raiders
Aias/Rancor/Pixie/Brutal
Toci's/AF3+2/Thundersoul/Rajas
Atheling/Cuchulains/AF3+2/Hecatomb+1
DE:
Mandau(90)/Str Kila+2/Raiders
Aias/Love/Delta/Brutal
Toci's/AF3+2/Airy/Rajas
Atheling/Anguinus/Tumbler/Hecatomb+1

Interesting. That goes completely against what I was eyeballing.

MarkovChain

10-03-2011, 06:09 PM

Is the crit rate on evisceration known ?

noodles355

10-03-2011, 07:00 PM

I'm not sure. But now I'm looking at the Evisceration page of his spreadsheet and I'm confused. I think it's set to have 95% Crit rate at 136% Crit damage, which is obviously completely wrong. But if that's the case it would explain why I'm eyeballing a quite noticable higher average from DE over Evis, yet why the spreadsheet says Evis shits all over DE.

Link to xls: https://docs.google.com/#folders/0B0A0wGYYRRdaZjdlNTdkNTEtMDMyYy00OTVmLWI4N2ItNDMwMDI1N2VkYWZk

Neisan_Quetz

10-03-2011, 08:09 PM

Going by a blog on the triteness of weaponskills evis should be 10% @ 100% TP iirc.

noodles355

10-03-2011, 08:21 PM

Neisan_Quetz

10-03-2011, 08:30 PM

Might be considering Striking/TA/SA? Never noticed that personally but I have an old version. Can ask Kinematics about if there's an error on the sheet.

Insaniac

10-03-2011, 09:50 PM

DE is consistently higher for me outside of abyssea unstacked. I only use Evisceration when my MS aftermath is up just because. AnywHay... The comment about 18 people teaming up to all get 95s pretty much melted my brain. Even if it only took 2 months (will be more like 4-6) per weapon we're still talking about 3 years (more like 6-9 years).

MarkovChain

10-03-2011, 10:17 PM

If the 95% cells in the spreadsheet is infact making it calulate evis with a 95% crit hit rate, and if I change them down to 10%, then the opposite happens and with both my gear, and with perfect gear, DE shits all over Evis.

It's at least 10% from base+merit, plus 8% crit damage bonus. Add to this dDEX which is 0-15%. Add to this a possible 10% natural on eviscearation, let's say 10%. It means that you always have >= 20% crit rate with 8% boost, and 35%+ if you cap ddex which is likely on trash.

If you are kiling trash mobs, high pdif, cap fstr, cap ddex (total crit 49% with your gear) etc, crit will do ~+45% damage more than non crit so evsiceration should give

(5.0+2.0*(1+2*0.10+(1-0.10)*0.11))*(49+13+0.85*0.30*158 )*((1-0.49)+0.49*1.08*1.45)=970 times average non crit pdif

DE will give (90 chr)

( 5.0+2.1875*(1+2*0.10+(1-0.10)*0.11) )*(49+13+0.85*(0.40*158+90*0.30))=1087*non crit pdif avg

noodles355

10-03-2011, 10:49 PM

Byrth

10-03-2011, 11:29 PM

It's 11% Crit Attack Bonus for a 95 THF now, too.

Neisan_Quetz

10-03-2011, 11:31 PM

Going by Sawtelle's post on Ukko thread on FFXIAH 176 dex wasn't enough to make a large impact on dDEX on T2 VW mobs, although saevel has stated their stats appear to be unusual.

MarkovChain

10-04-2011, 12:30 AM

VW mobs don't follow normal pattern neither offensively nor defensively nor evasion wise (exemple would be the slime NM basicaly ignoring your def or ignoring formless strike for instance). Also I doubt you'd want a thf ever TP feeding those mobs ... The only place a THF should be nowadays is in dynamis to farm coins. Mobs are still EP+ so usual melee gear is still useful, excluding acc obviously. Mercy stroke is probably still the best ws anyway.

Monchat

10-04-2011, 01:40 AM

10% base+merits, 5% rancor, 4% af3+2 legs, 10% evis boost. WS set sits at 150ish dex which will be capping ddex on most stuff, for around 45%ish crit rate. With that and what I'm aiming for short-term, it's looking like Evis wins by 984.577 to 919.760 on fodder mobs. Interesting. DE always seemed to average higher but I guess I was just lucky/imaginging it. I think I'll parse it next time I'm TotM/Dyna/Whatevering out of interest, to see if results match what should be happening according to xls.

For near-perfect gear it's looking like Evis: 1405.213 vs DE's 1324.279

I've input your gear values in my spreadsheats and I have evisceration = dancing edge before attack considerations. Basically both your gear sets have the same STR DEX, what your evisceration set has is +9% critical, traits +8% crit dmg, while your dacing edge has +30 attack and +1% double attack and ~+20 DMG from lolCHR. before attack I have 1 main hit of DE= one main hit of EVI. However +30 attacks is at least +7% damage is you go by the 4 attack=1% rule. If you have a higher attack and use 6 attack=1% it is still +5%. Now I dont know if you gear sets are optimal, but I noticed a ~15 acc difference in both which is strange.

If its +11% crit dmg like byrth said then it would be still inferior. However if the native crit rate of evisc is 20% ( 29% with gear) which I doubt, it would be superior. From playing with number, EVI should be superior to DE if you can reach a crit hit rate if >25% ish. It is not as easy as people think to get a high dDEX on anything that matters ( VT + mob) outside abyssea.

Motenten

10-04-2011, 03:55 AM

Going over my spreadsheets for errors..

The 95% number was the crit rate cap, not the value being used. It was to prevent spurious numbers, but should probably be updated to 100% cap now.

>> Changed to 100% cap.

Evisceration is given a base bonus crit rate of 10%, and is assumed to scale at 10% per 100 TP. I don't have any data on its scaling, but recently read of another weaponskill that may scale at 5% per 100 TP. Might need to drop the scaling down.

>> Added a field at the top of the Evis page to manually specify the scaling rate. Using 5% for now to be conservative.

Nominal crit rate in gear on a weaker mob is 34% -- 50 dDex giving 20%, 5% merits, 5% Rancor Collar, 4% AF3+2 legs. Add 10% base for Evis and it has a 44% crit rate.

If using TP Bonus Fusetto and Moonshade earring (and including over-TP rounds), that could be up to +150 TP over baseline. If it scales at 10% per 100 TP that's +15% crit rate; if it scales at 5% per 100 TP that's +7.5% crit rate. Total if using that gear would be 51.5% to 59% crit rate.

Continuing without the TP bonus gear, it looks like maybe a 45% crit rate, depending on over-TP and crit rate scaling.

Critical attack bonus for thf is 11% base for 91+. Add 5% for Loki's and it's +16% crit damage.

>> Updated cap to level 95; adjusted skill and crit damage bonus. Player stats not updated.

@Noodles -- I'm not sure how you're getting 136% crit damage outside Abyssea (or even inside Abyssea for that matter, since it should start at 138% using the lvl 90 spreadsheet and RR atma).

Error: All DE calculations used the +fTP (gorget or elemental belt) of the first normal weaponskill set. Fixed.

Made some gear adjustments in the comparison, as it had mostly been optimized for comparing Evis in Abyssea. Against the fodder lvl 97 mobs at thf level 95, Evis is at 1444 and DE is at 1460. Oh, and that's with Twashtar pushing dDex up to cap. Using, say, Fire Kila +2 & Triplus it drops crit rate by 5%, and averages are Evis 1352, DE 1395.

Change target to Bhukis and it's Evis 858, DE 881. Revert scaling to 10% per 100 TP and Evis goes up to 863, though that would be more significant if using the TP Bonus dagger/earring.

Overall it looks like DE should be just slightly ahead of Evis.

Updated version of the spreadsheet was uploaded to Google Docs.

noodles355

10-04-2011, 05:48 AM

That's a lot of great info there, and thanks a lot for the update. I'm not sure where 136% was coming from either, but on later number plugging it was at 113% which makes more sense (8% trait 5% loki). Goona go play with updated spreadsheet~

Rearden

10-04-2011, 05:56 AM

I'm not clear on what you're implying, but it seems to be you are saying that a 150TP Evis would be 15% instead of 10%, halfway to 20%@200TP

I'm pretty sure pre-emp crit WS do not scale aside from 100/200/300 but I could be mistaken if someone has info otherwise

Motenten

10-04-2011, 07:08 AM

I don't have any info for or against such a notion; it would be extremely time-consuming to test. I assumed it scaled piece-wise linearly across all TP values since weaponskills that have their damage vary by TP scale across all TP values as well (easiest to test with something like Spirit's Within). I'm leaving it as is unless someone has proof otherwise.

wish12oz

10-04-2011, 11:49 PM

I would just like to point out that I have 10 heavy metal plates. I acquired them all from actually doing voidwatch, with my 2 characters, and I've killed new voidwatch mobs about 80 times total. I always trade cells, and I almost always have capped lights. This trial is stupid, and ridiculous, and whoever made it 1500 instead of 150, needs to be fired.

Feliciaa

10-05-2011, 12:54 AM

Of course drops will be low when your doing it with only 2 out of 18 people...

Insaniac

10-05-2011, 02:27 AM

I don't know if you're being funny or you didn't understand.

Byrth

10-05-2011, 02:29 AM

I've gotten 25 via Dynamis/selling/buying. If I hold out for 250k per plate, I make gil faster than I can buy plates. I don't know what I'm going to do to be honest. This trial is going to take me half a year of once-a-day Dynamis.

Monchat

10-05-2011, 02:54 AM

Byrth

10-05-2011, 03:01 AM

at 200k per it is the price of a relic so 1 month of dual runs, or 2 month of 1 run a day for me. still ridiculous, not only becuase of the price but also because of the supply that is basically inexistant.

200k * 1500 = 300mil, which is about 2.5 times the price of a relic at the moment on Lakshmi.

But yeah, the main problem is that I can afford to buy them at 500k each at the rate I make gil, and the supply isn't there (500k each, it would take me a year to finish the stage).

Taruguru

10-05-2011, 03:09 AM

On Bismark, best price I saw was 13 for 400K each. People who sells them seems to have a couple. I have never seen a bazaar with only 1 Plate to sell in it.

Byrth

10-05-2011, 03:13 AM

Most of the ones I've gotten have been singles or doubles, with one stack of 13. It's just people who get Pouches vs. not.

Return1

10-05-2011, 03:33 AM

I can't believe there are people stupid enough to buy plates atm.

Gokku

10-05-2011, 03:51 AM

managed to nab 8 for 100k each , smithings been nice to me so ive got the gil to burn who ever said crafting is dead thank you because i have little to no comp on normal synths just people flooding synergy smithing on carby.

Byrth

10-05-2011, 04:12 AM

I can't believe there are people stupid enough to buy plates atm.

I have all the useful buyable items in the game for my jobs, and I'm sitting on 30,000 Alexandrite waiting for Einherjar tokens. By the end of the month, I'll be done with every part of the Mythic except Einherjar tokens. Unless I want to drop my playtime down to a 30-minute twice-a-week event, I need a new project. I enjoy farming Dynamis. I enjoy making gil and being a shrewd little crafty taru. I don't enjoy doing it with literally no purpose though.

I've already told you that I'm making gil twice as fast as I can spend it on the plates at 250k each, and my food/medicine overhead is covered by stuff I NPC. What should I do? Level and gear another job so I can fulfill the same party role in a slightly different way? Get a relic for my mule? Buy at a higher price? These are the alternatives I've considered.

Return1

10-05-2011, 04:50 AM

Byrth

10-05-2011, 05:27 AM

You could not be stupid with your money and set a lowered goal price, stockpile the gil, then go on a spending spree when the plates fall, saving time and money.

I just hate how people are going on about how shitty 1500 plates are when they're willing to pay the retarded prices that come with the start of any new item.

Maybe because stockpiling gil and being hopeful doesn't inherently increase supply?

There are two ways they could make this easier in the next patch:
1) Make every Relics better than every Empyrean.
2) Introduce larger pouches of Heavy Metal (currently it's 3~15, so make it 15~60).

If that happened, I'd lose my investment and would effectively complete Twashtar 95 slower by the amount of time it takes me to make back the gil I lost. However, if that happens then the amount of gil required to complete Twashtar to 90 is fairly trivial, so it wouldn't take me long to get it (which is the goal). I don't want a relic. I have the Alexandrite for a Mythic. I can't buy any of the R/Ex drops I'm missing (Voidwatch). I'm obviously not alone among Empyrean owners in having nothing else to blow gil on.

At the moment, I'm 25 plates in at about 220k/plate. If the price drops to 40k each (half a Relic, which would be impressive considering the 95 Empyreans crush many relics), I would lose 180k per plate. If I make 1.5~2mil per night and successfully buy one plate per night, then I'm effectively making 1.3~1.8mil per night after losses. If plate prices drop to 40k, and it's two months until the next update, then I'll have about 100 plates (18mil loss) and be sitting on 90 mil. 1400*40 = 56mil, so I guess I'll also buy a K-club to prox fastrar?