The debate-free Poll.

[Crimson_Slasher]

This is to be debate and argument free, period, we are going to get a tally going, as red mages, we should be able to atleast agree to show our stance, without overinflated egos, and show our respect for one another.

Now the question first, is this; Assuming mage related improvements are distributed to redmage with each update from this point on until the end of ffxi's service, would you like to see melee improvements to red mage, in gear, spell, trait, or ability form, for solo or party situations? In short, do you want to see red mages able to melee well or not?

Simple answers people, no rage, no reasons why or why not, lets make it easy for the devs to see if there is more support from redmages or not.

I want opinions from real redmages only (as in playing the job in a capacity other than as a subjob role,) and anyone trying to start drama here, please everyone, just ignore them.

My vote is for yes to seeing melee improvments in some way shape or form.

I will be editing this as i go to reflect the support or opposition for this.


-Currently-
For melee reform/improvements: 4
-Crimson Slasher.
-Doombringer.
-Brightshadow.
-Stylin.

Against melee reform/improvements: 14
-Greatguardian.
-BorkBorkBork.
-Kensagaku.
-Siiri.
-Shiyo.
-Wish12oz.
-Cidbahamut.
-Zaknafein.
-Tybudx.
-Tamoa.
-Noodles355.
-Septimus.
-Fredjan.
-HimuraKenshyn.

In protest of this thread: 3
-Hyrist.
-Greatguardian.
-Kensagaku.

Anything upgraded: 6
-Swords.
-Daniel_Hatcher.
-Kitkat.
-Zatias.
-Javarr.
-Yamimarik44.

[Hyrist]

I vote in protest of this thread. It's already gone off to a bad start with the 'real red mages only' tone. And there's absolutely no reason why updates cant apply to multiple aspects of Red Mage.

[Greatguardian]

Ticking in in protest of this thread as well. And against melee updates, because your assumptions are fallacious. Inb4 shitstorm.

[BorkBorkBork]

Against Red "Melee" reform. I'm for Red "Mage" improvements.

[cidbahamut]

This is to be debate and argument free, period
Are you new to Red Mage forums or something? That's like our national pastime.

[Neisan_Quetz]

In protest of this thread, against further melee improvements, for mage updates.

[Kensagaku]

In protest of this thread, as people said, because it's preparing to welcome a whole lot of "debate" again despite your good intentions in the OP. I hope that it doesn't devolve into that but I have little faith in the OF of late. >.>;

Casting my vote as well against melee improvements; while I'd like them, I'd much rather focus on our magical role first and foremost.

[Swords]

I'm for any improvements to RDM in general melee or otherwise.

[Siiri]

Don't care to see any improvements in rdm melee.

[Kitkat]

I wouldn't mind seeing gear option improvements, but overall I would just like to see rdm actually be useful again. Right now it just...isn't needed.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Melee and Mage improvements, as a Hybrid no one specific area should be the sole area to improve.

[Shiyo]

In protest against further melee improvements, I want mage updates.

[Doombringer]

a lot of you guys are missing the key point here. in his hypothetical he's saying whatever mage update would happen, happens no matter what. so you can't vote "for' mage side. since that happens no matter what anyone says. so in the world of sunshine and fairies where rdm mage is gonna be totally fine no matter what, would you also like melee with that? i know i would.

but i also agree with the general sentiment that this thread is gonna be flamebait.. i'm amazed it isn't already.

[Neisan_Quetz]

After the last VU where the only thing they managed to implement in time was Temper, I have a vote of no confidence in that anymore.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

After the last VU where the only thing they managed to implement in time was Temper, I have a vote of no confidence in that anymore.


Which they already said they planned on releasing the remaining spells for RDM after the major update with the Enfeebling fix. Temper and Boost-STR was just so they had something to come with the update along with giving them Raise II.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Seeing as doombringer was the only one to see it so far, im going to enlarge the font for the important lines.

[Brightshadow]

Well in My Opinion I believe that Red Mage should follow the original Concept of a Magic Fencer that has Mid Level White and Black Magic, but I also believe it needs adjustments in the Magic Fencer Ascept so I support Melee Adjustments.

[Shiyo]

I do not want any dev time wasted on improving RDM's meleeing abilities. An alliance/party leader will never want a RDM to melee, ever, it serves no point. It is a soloists hobby, and many other jobs can solo/melee much better. This is not 2003 anymore, this is now 2011 and everyone has multiple level 95 jobs plus it's so easy/fast to level, if you really want to melee then level up one of the other numerous other melee DD jobs that do it much better. Ninja, blu, and dnc are all pretty similiar to melee RDM but actually do it correctly.

Even if it didn't waste dev time somehow, it'd still be a huge waste of time and pointless. It would be like buffing PLD nuking abilities, or WHM melee abilities.

[Kitkat]

Didn't say I was against it, figured having better gear options would be a more applicable step towards the melee aspect than anything. You know, better WS body, TP body, Weapons like ye olde Enhancing sword that gives us better Melee support when enspell or similar Rdm only spell is active.

Figured if anything my name would end up under "any improvement" not under "against" >.> oh well.

[wish12oz]

No melee buffs for RDM, thats not what the job is for.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Thankyou for the correction kitkat. And shiyo, your vote has been tallied, thankyou for your input, your reasoning does not much matter.

[cidbahamut]

a lot of you guys are missing the key point here. in his hypothetical he's saying whatever mage update would happen, happens no matter what. so you can't vote "for' mage side. since that happens no matter what anyone says. so in the world of sunshine and fairies where rdm mage is gonna be totally fine no matter what, would you also like melee with that? i know i would.

Unfortunately we have to deal with reality and not the land of bunny rainbow carpet rides. Development man-hours are limited, despite what certain posters would have us believe, and tweaking melee really doesn't do anything for the job. Magical updates are where it 's at.

[Zaknafein]

As a 75 rdm in 04' as my 1st job no to rdm melee enhancements. Yes to CureV, and stronger nukes.

[Stylin]

For melee because developments aren't handled by an indie dev team.

[TybudX]

No for melee, yes for mage oriented updates.

[Tamoa]

I wasn't going to post in a thread like this, but just in case SE reps actually see this thread and take note of the result: As a rdm main for years, as far as rdm melee improvements go - no, no and no.

[noodles355]

Voting against rdm melee.

Also I think it's pretty retarded that your poll is "assuming we're definitely getting awesome mage updates anyway... would you like to improve melee?". Your poll is designed to make it appear as if rdms want melee update. You basically said "Assuming we get [A], would you also like to get [B]?" when getting [B] wont affect [A], and when [A] is what the majority are concerned about.

There really isn't a reason to vote against it, so what's the point of it? If anything it poses a problem because it will be mis-interpreted as "rdms want melee buffs more than mage".

I say there isn't a reason to vote against it, but I still am voting against it, because I don't want this to be mis-interpreted like I stated above.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Count updated, and as doombringer said, this is hypothetical and based solely on choices, no reasoning nessesary, my opinion aside, i will not skew the numbers, but it needs to be seen atleast out of the posting community where the chips are, and if nothing else, this will show everyone like-minded people on this subject and prevent politics of saying "there are x hundred red mages wanting y." Sometimes people need to take a publicly visible stance and put their name on a list. This poll is for that reason, that said, thankyou Cid, your vote has been marked, please avoid any further comments about how the development team may or may not work, it is not your nor my place to attempt to sway voters. Thankyou.

As for you noodles, yes i did pose it in a way to say that mage updates would not be neglected, i wanted to hear people's thoughts on the principle of the subject, not feeling they are signing a death of a way of life, but are adding their support or opposition to something that is seen nearly universally defficient and not socially acceptable, it is not ment to mislead anyone. Quite simply its more of asking "are you okay seeing red mage melee and if so do you think you would like to see them do so better?" So thankyou for your imput, adding you, and please refrain from further posts of why you feel said way, this poll will not reflect why, just what.

[saevel]

This is a flame bait poll. Not only that but it's premise is flawed.

No matter what you typed, you will get tons of people running to the "no" side, for no other reason then they want their WHM-1 back.

You could of wrote

"Assuming RDM gets Cure V, Raise III, Thundaja next update, would you also like some melee buff / spell?" And their answer would of been the exact same "no because it might encourage someone to melee and I need them to be Cureing me".

And while I'm hoping all aspects of the job get enhanced, both mage and melee, our melee is the side that is hurt the most. It's so hurt that you have people coming on and saying "its not what RDM is for", when the job ~IS~ clearly designed for that, just poorly implemented.

Take this as an example

Casting my vote as well against melee improvements; while I'd like them, I'd much rather focus on our magical role first and foremost.
The post clearly said mage side would get updates regardless, so "yes" to melee wouldn't hurt mage. Yet people would post saying "no" for no other reason then to spite the others. I'd suggest you delete this thread before it goes the way of the others.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Your concern is recognized, however the only way debate will form in this poll is through posts like your own, if you do not wish to cast a vote, please do not post in here, and please avoid any posts otherwise, this is not the place for them.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Your concern is recognized, however the only way debate will form in this poll is through posts like your own, if you do not wish to cast a vote, please do not post in here, and please avoid any posts otherwise, this is not the place for them.

Only issue with this is you have people that haven't even got RDM to 45 coming in and voting "No" just because they can.

Polls are useless in that sense.

[saevel]

Your concern is recognized, however the only way debate will form in this poll is through posts like your own, if you do not wish to cast a vote, please do not post in here, and please avoid any posts otherwise, this is not the place for them.

You created debate the moment you hit "submit". This is a web forum, debates, arguments, and flame wars happen on web forums, you won't change that with a disclaimer.

As has been mentioned, you also have people who either don't have the job leveled or who only have it as "one of their 90s" posting. To them, they couldn't care less about the job, they only see one of their "cure" people trying to melee.

You even went to such lengths to state that RDM would still get the "mage" updates, and yet people still went to the "don't melee whatever you do" side.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Its true that I havent checked everyone's jobs, however it is their right to make their descision, like it or not, they are free to vote, and even if they dont like what i or others think, they are still entitled to this choice. That said do you have any proof as to players not having the job leveled? I dont so im taking it at face value. Secondly if i wanted to only skew the results to create false melee support, i wouldnt have posed it this way but instead would have posted it as "Please post here if you would like to see melee updates, all against will be ignored" but i did not. Dont like my methods? Dont post here, and please stop distracting the other voters. Thankyou.

[saevel]

Its true that I havent checked everyone's jobs, however it is their right to make their descision, like it or not, they are free to vote, and even if they dont like what i or others think, they are still entitled to this choice. That said do you have any proof as to players not having the job leveled? I dont so im taking it at face value. Secondly if i wanted to only skew the results to create false melee support, i wouldnt have posed it this way but instead would have posted it as "Please post here if you would like to see melee updates, all against will be ignored" but i did not. Dont like my methods? Dont post here, and please stop distracting the other voters. Thankyou.

*Cough*

And at which point in time did you become a Mod or CR?

Ohh right you aren't and thus can not organize a damn thing.

Here let me predict the outcome of this "poll" (its not a poll btw).

Tons of anti-RDM-melee people jumping in, most common comment will be "rdm's aren't supposed to melee", eventually it'll become a flame war in a dozen pages or so. This has played out on every forum for the past 7 years, nothing here will chance this.

[Crimson_Slasher]

I see you are contributing to keeping this poll clean. Thankyou for your thoughts, concerns, and statements, but i will nolonger indulge you in further responses in this poll thread. Thankyou for your time, have a nice day Saevel.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Its true that I havent checked everyone's jobs, however it is their right to make their descision, like it or not, they are free to vote, and even if they dont like what i or others think, they are still entitled to this choice. That said do you have any proof as to players not having the job leveled? I dont so im taking it at face value. Secondly if i wanted to only skew the results to create false melee support, i wouldnt have posed it this way but instead would have posted it as "Please post here if you would like to see melee updates, all against will be ignored" but i did not. Dont like my methods? Dont post here, and please stop distracting the other voters. Thankyou.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Free+Poll+Creator

There you go, this is a web forum, not a polling website it's open to opinions if you don't want it as that use the link I provided and do one of those sites to create a poll.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Valid statement or not a thread would need to be created just to share said poll, and with things like proxies, passing the link to friends, and further abuses, the poll would suffer even more biast results as individuals would be able to skew things further by multi-voting, and while this is a forum for discussion, this thread ive requested not be used for such so we can have a less skewed list, as individuals need linked accounts to use the forum. I thankyou for offering an alternate option but i had considered it earlier and felt it too flawed, not to mention silly when the players are less likely to click a random link on a forum, let alone read/vote upon it, and the devs are even less likely than that to read it. There are no rules as to my knowledge to limit textual polls in these forums. Thankyou for your time, further responses from you also will not be responded to by me personally. Thankyou for your time, and your sarcastic attempt at assisting/hindering this poll. Have a nice day.

[cidbahamut]

This poll is for that reason, that said, thankyou Cid, your vote has been marked, please avoid any further comments about how the development team may or may not work, it is not your nor my place to attempt to sway voters. Thankyou.
It's not how it "may or may not work", it is exactly how it works. Do you understand the concept of a man-hour?

[Crimson_Slasher]

Fine i will bite cid, do YOU understand the concept of how a single "Man-hour" is not an increment of work done, but time taken to complete a task? Further do you carry the developer schedules, employee listing and their list of tasks to be completed? You do not. Be aware, the development team is not the admin team, and is not the server moderation team. More to this point, the dev team is not even the forum team, as such they are not inconvenianced with reading the forums, managing the performance of the server, or policing it, these are all separate divisions, further, it is a development "team". As such more than one person is working at one time, and while coding is intensive, time consuming, and generally frustrating, they do have the options to implement retroactive patches, and in between sessions of updates individuals may be delegated to perform certain tasks related to existing or far later projected updates. In the span of an average work week in the united states (40 hours) then subtracting distractions such as breaks, eating, restroom use, and other general non work related activites, we can assume 30+ hours is availble to directly work on content adjustment per person, and even at minimum we can guess there are 3 or more individuals. So we can assume there are 3 or more men or women in an office, spending 30 hours or more per week adjusting these game mechanics. Factor in saved time from grafting existing code when possible, and even with a strict update schedule, there is always room for these new ideas to recieve attention, be brought to the table, examined and evaluated for their time intensiveness versus their budgeted time and decide if said aspect can be implemented within said timeframe. But at the end of the day, it is far less likely that they will remove an otherwise intended improvement to make room for another one if it risks the project not being released on time. That said, thankyou once again for attempting to derail this topic and taking the time to question if i understand how work load is measured against someone charged with performing a job.

In summary, no, development man hours are not "limited" because they are not lumped into an actual timeframe and as has been seen before, supplemental updates CAN be released following the main update. The only limitation toward development of the game and its mechanics are in server space, client capacity, and how quickly the developments are implemented.

[Greatguardian]

ITT: OP creates "debate-free poll", then debates more than anyone else in the thread. Called it from page 1.

When you create a poll with an inherently flawed pretext, as well as a flawed polling option, you're going to get called out on it. You didn't make the poll "I am interested in more Melee updates" vs "I am interested in more Magic updates", you tried to make it "I am okay with Melee updates" vs "I will kick you in the head if you update Melee because I'm a jackass". Not only does that antagonize the entire community, but it yanks away what little credibility (read: none) that you might have had.

[Zatias]

Wall of text hurts ; ;

My priority: Magic Utility > Melee improvement

Magic Priority: Healing > Enhancing > Enfeebling > Nuking

Healing: Red Mage has problems healing these days. It is not an issue of MP, rather an issue of potency and enmity yanking. They need a stronger cure; at this point I don't care if it's Cure V or not, but we really need an improvement.
Enhancing: Most of our enhancing spells are lackluster and only self-target. We need better enhancements to support our allies to really earn spots in parties.
Enfeebling: Many endgame NMs are extremely resistant or straight-out immune to our enfeebles, making them a waste of time and MP to cast. This needs to be addressed.
Nuking: Our nukes are already somewhat decent with the proper gear, but another tier of MAB wouldn't hurt. I can understand no T5s being available to RDM, but maybe a RDM-specific nuke would be cool.


Melee Priority: Weaponskill access
Giving RDM access to more powerful weaponskills (Vorpal Blade) would be fun to play around with when soloing. It wouldn't break the game for sure, and it wouldn't encourage RDMs to go up and feed TP to a difficult NM.


That's my vote: for magical upgrades; not entirely AGAINST melee upgrades but would rather have the magic improvements over it.

I hope you don't consider me giving reasons to why as "debating".

[Crimson_Slasher]

Noted greatguardian, i guess people dont understand cooperation, or following directions. I wasnt looking for people to side with which updates they wanted or were okay with, but if they felt they could see red mage melee updates as socially acceptable, but then again its a popular mindset in general to try to take down the origional poster in a topic like this as some sort of achievement. In this respect its clear that there are far too many antagonizers that do not want to try to compromise, and do not want to try to show any etiquette online. Among them are those like yourself whom presume that this has destroyed any credibility. Conversely you predictibly waited till such an outburst from myself that you could step in and cry "I told you so" with a smug grin of satisfaction. So rather than contribute or offer any constructive threads, topics, or statements, you have simply proven toxic to this and many other topics, which more than my credibility has been wounded, has placed yours on questionable foundation.

As to you zatias, adding you to any improvement, thankyou for your polite, collected, and nonconfrontational post.
In parting remarks, i will leave this poll here, and continue to update it's count, but i will nolonger humor any responses directed at myself or the game which i care about. Have a nice day.

[Seriha]

Only issue with this is you have people that haven't even got RDM to 45 coming in and voting "No" just because they can.

Polls are useless in that sense.

Or Cid could link the thread on BG and possible results get skewed just because they wanna be their usual selves.

[Javarr]

I will admit, I only recently came back to RDM, but when I started in FFXI, I was an RDM.

Personally, I would like to see the following parts addressed:

A: RDM Enfeebling: If SE would stop handing out Ribbons to all their mobs, that would be nice. (Cudos to anyone that gets the old FF reference)

B: RDM Support / Healing: Sure we get some of the best buffs in the game and with /SCH, it allows us to use some of them with greater efficiency, but our healing side suffers greatly. Back Pre-Abyssea, Cure IV was alright, but now, even outside of Abyssea, it's a drop in the bucket.

C: RDM Melee: Even with the community seeming to be stuck in the old mindset of "TP feed" or "You can't melee and keep a buff/debuff/healing cycle", this is gonna be a hard sell. Access to even some of the better melee gear (Not asking for a bloody Halby here) and other weapon skills like Vorpal Blade would help a lot. Like I used to say back in the day, our AF weapon is a sword, let us use it.

So to rap all this up:

Enhancements to RDM Enfeebling: Yes
Enhancements to RDM Support / Healing: Yes
Enhancements to RDM Melee: Yes

[cidbahamut]

Or Cid could link the thread on BG and possible results get skewed just because they wanna be their usual selves.

Say what now? I think you've got me mixed up with someone else.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Or Cid could link the thread on BG and possible results get skewed just because they wanna be their usual selves.

Personally the fault is in the concept of only buffing one area of a Hybrid.

[Yamimarik44]

I have to go with buff to Melee and Mage aspect of Red mage, it's a hybrid SE needs to fix it as such.

[Greatguardian]

Say what now? I think you've got me mixed up with someone else.

I think he got you mixed up with me.

And most, if not all, of the BG posters that actually bother with the RDM forums here are RDM75+ who have played the job for an extremely long time and actually care about it. We post because we care about Red Mage, not because we enjoy dealing with this subforum.

[Scuro]

ITT: OP creates "debate-free poll", then debates more than anyone else in the thread. Called it from page 1.

When you create a poll with an inherently flawed pretext, as well as a flawed polling option, you're going to get called out on it. You didn't make the poll "I am interested in more Melee updates" vs "I am interested in more Magic updates", you tried to make it "I am okay with Melee updates" vs "I will kick you in the head if you update Melee because I'm a jackass". Not only does that antagonize the entire community, but it yanks away what little credibility (read: none) that you might have had.


a lot of you guys are missing the key point here. in his hypothetical he's saying whatever mage update would happen, happens no matter what. so you can't vote "for' mage side. since that happens no matter what anyone says. so in the world of sunshine and fairies where rdm mage is gonna be totally fine no matter what, would you also like melee with that? i know i would.

but i also agree with the general sentiment that this thread is gonna be flamebait.. i'm amazed it isn't already.

The only reason why nobody else is posting in here that isn't a RDM, is because the answer from the main page is obviously the sentiment many of us have. So truly no point. I'm not going to cast a vote because I am not a true RDM, I'm just stating why I haven't posted anything and I'm sure why others haven't, because its only saying what we all have been saying that DD RDM is a thing of the past or solo play.

[Septimus]

I think he got you mixed up with me.

And most, if not all, of the BG posters that actually bother with the RDM forums here are RDM75+ who have played the job for an extremely long time and actually care about it. We post because we care about Red Mage, not because we enjoy dealing with this subforum.

Hey like me! RDM was my first job to 75 all the way back in 2004 before CoP was released.

I am going to go the debate-free route and just say this: no, I do not want to see RDM melee improvements.

[Fredjan]

I personally want Red Mage to be useful again. I want RDM to have specific enfeebles that no other job has (seriously, was it too bad to keep Addle RDM specific...?) Addle wasn't by all means an OMG enfeeble, but it was useful against magic heavy mobs and the first unique one we've had. I don't consider "higher tiers" of some enfeebles through merits unique, just more potent.

So I'm more for the mage aspect improved. The melee aspect... doesn't even get any interest from me because I've got DD jobs more suited for meleeing any day of the week. Last time I meleed on RDM was to learn Death Blossom at 75 and I'd have to have an Almace to ever do that again, because I'm one of the few that doesn't see the point without CdC or, at the minimum, Vorpal Blade, and my Blue Mage can do that regardless of sub.

Last time I even played RDM was to level it to 95.

Goes without saying I would've been all over Temper if they had let us target others with it. I would've loved to have an enhancing spell that's unique to us and not self-target.

[Brightshadow]

I think its pretty simple to fix Red mages. Many think that if SE is going to buff Red mage Melee side that they are going to be lacking in the mage department but that a bunch of BS. And some little changes that can really change our gameplay can be done within a couple of hours to a day.

1.)First off we know that one of the biggest thing that doesn't allow us to melee is our cast load. Blue mages can melee because there spells are supported by TP, and they can cast very fast. Now While Red Mages do have faster casting than Black mage and White mage I think that a simple change to the Fast Cast Formula is all that is needed to reduce our cast load. Here is the new Formula I had in mind.

-Fast Cast I
Casting Time -10%
Recast Time -5%

-Fast Cast II
Casting Time -20%
Recast Time -10%

-Fast Cast III
Casting Time -30%
Recast Time -15%

-Fast Cast IV
Casting Time -40%
Recast Time -20%

-Fast Cast V
Casting Time -50%
Recast Time -25%

2.)Secondly while Composure is a great ability, and the triple Duration for buffs is great. I think that instead of it being a Ability it should be a trait. Just remove the ACC bonus, and the Penalty and it will greatly help us with our cast load.

3.)And Finally I understand that many of you think its a waste of time for Red mages to melee. But what we are asking for is not for "oh my god damage" we are asking for adjustments to make us more useful in the frontlines. And here are some ideas oh how I think it can be done.

-Allow us to wear more melee gear.
Before we used to be able to wear melee gear until a point, atleast chain armor but now we can't even wear that anymore, nor light armor. Atleast let us wear what THF,BLU,DNC and other light armor user can equip.

-Give us Access to the following Weaponskills Natively.
(Sanguine Blade)
(Vorpal Blade)

-Give us Access to the following Traits Natively.
(Subtle Blow)-To put less strain on us with the feeding TP excuse. (T1=LV30)(T2=LV60)(T3=LV90)

-Allow Enspell II to work with dual wield and multiple hits.
The increase in damage per hit is great, but why doesn't it work with multiple hits.

And while we still won't have a purpose to be on the frontlines these adjustments are a step in the right direction toward RDM melee, and we will atleast be viewed as competent on the frontlines. (If PUP can survive the stigma so can we)

[cidbahamut]

2.)Secondly while Composure is a great ability, and the triple Duration for buffs is great. I think that instead of it being a Ability it should be a trait. Just remove the ACC bonus, and the Penalty and it will greatly help us with our cast load.


This would actually be pretty cool. I'm already full-timing Composure for everything that doesn't require Utsusemi or Cursna spam, so turning it into a job trait would fit nicely.

[Seriha]

Say what now? I think you've got me mixed up with someone else.

It all starts to blur after a while. Either way, you don't see us running to Alla or other portions of this board demanding people come shut the mage only retards up or to mass report people who dare have a differing opinion. It's hard to take people who claim to love a job seriously when they'd gleefully gut an aspect of it (See your agreement to nerfing Composure...) if only because it wasn't good enough to begin with. No, if you loved a job, you'd want more people playing it, eking out every last ounce of potential it had. The commentary accompanying some of the negative replies here reeks more of a grudge than genuine concern for RDM.

[cidbahamut]

So if I really loved Red Mage I'd have the same opinions about it that you do. Got it.

[Seriha]

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

[Greatguardian]

It all starts to blur after a while. Either way, you don't see us running to Alla or other portions of this board demanding people come shut the mage only retards up or to mass report people who dare have a differing opinion. It's hard to take people who claim to love a job seriously when they'd gleefully gut an aspect of it (See your agreement to nerfing Composure...) if only because it wasn't good enough to begin with. No, if you loved a job, you'd want more people playing it, eking out every last ounce of potential it had. The commentary accompanying some of the negative replies here reeks more of a grudge than genuine concern for RDM.

I love Corsair.

At the same time, I LOVE that practically no one plays Corsair.

Why? Because the few people who take the time and spend the massive amount of gil it takes to properly play Corsair are generally invested in the job to the point where they're actually going to put effort into being good at it. Practically every Corsair who posts in the Corsair subforums has an Armageddon. Those forums are great. There's less activity, but the posts that do get put up there are solid. The Devs give us some of the updates that we ask for, and they don't give us others. Either way, we love the ones we got, and you don't see any Corsairs running around raging on every board to get attention.

No. Loving a job has nothing to do with wanting it to be "popular" and having lots of people play it. Just because I love Rdm doesn't mean anyone else should. I don't just play each of my jobs to their max potential, I play the whole game to its potential. I maximize the Magical aspect of my Red Mage because that's the aspect I would use Red Mage for. I don't need to worry about the melee aspect because I have plenty of melee jobs who can do it better.

And you know what, I didn't demand that anyone go anywhere or post anything. I linked to this thread because I knew it was going to be a trainwreck, and the OP was so hilariously misguided that it fit within the topic of the thread I posted it in (being, funny/stupid crap on the Official Forums).

BG is not my personal army, nor is it anyone else'. Regardless of what you might think, I'm just not that cool.

[Seriha]

Cool isn't the word I'd use, but carry on trying to mask that thread.

Anyway, there's not some either/or conspiracy here when it comes to mage/melee attention, as much as some of you guys want to paint us the evil people that ruined SE's attention to RDMs. Are resources limited? I don't doubt it. On the other hand, throwing things to 20 jobs at once alongside the cap increases and event adjustments is a bit more daunting than just focusing solely on one or two jobs were the cap stabilized. At present, we have the vague promised enfeebling adjustments, and I guess some nifty things in that vein, but also still vague. I'm as curious as the next person, but we won't get that info until it's given.

For now, when it comes to jobs, it seems like SE's focus is on SCH. I can't blame them for that given the grumbling we've done about homogenization (especially if removing RDM's melee potential) and a lack of popularity. You can try to spin such in COR's favor, but between a mix of expenses and being a newer "not-quite-gambler-like-people-imagined-back-in-the-day" job, it's not surprising it sees fewer bodies populating it. I wouldn't outright disqualify someone from liking COR if they were unhappy with that, just as I don't mind people who are okay with being a backline RDM. Problems arise when they start like there's only one way to play and anyone who doesn't subscribe is a(n) <insert flavor insult here> instead of at least allowing a hybrid class to be hybrid. With the way some rave, I'd swear they'd be okay with MNKs wielding guns if it meant they did more damage than H2H.

[Greatguardian]

I would wield a gun on Monk if it did more damage than H2H =/

Cor/Whms who roll in Trump Guns with Marksmanship 0 are retarded, too. Thankfully, rolls are expensive enough that most people who would gimp the job up don't bother starting it in the first place. Cor isn't "unpopular" because it's unfun, or the concept isn't freaking awesome (Hello? Pirate king with luck-based buffs, that they can eventually manipulate to a tee, who shoots lazer guns with exploding bullets? SIGN ME UP). Cor is "unpopular" because it's a job that requires significant investment to play at even the most basic level. The only people who play the job, then, are ones who have the means and motivation to take it seriously. Most good players may not be Corsairs, but most Corsairs are good players. Good luck saying that about any other job, especially one with a history like Red Mage.

Frankly, what it comes down to is this: You highly underestimate the ability of top tier players to use everything humanly possible to their advantage. You want Red Mage, the most singularly powerful job in the game, to receive both Magical AND Melee buffs? Enter Gilgamesh, King of Kings. YOU personally may not be a walking demigod, *I* may not personally be a walking demigod, no one on this subforum may be a walking demigod. But there will be walking demigods.

The Devs know this. They know that universal improvements to an already exceedingly powerful job can spawn demigods. That's why they're never going to do it. No matter how much you and other RdMelees want to tout about the Dev's ability to actually work through all the updates given enough time, the plain and simple truth is that they won't, and they'd be irresponsible if they did anyways.

[Seriha]

And we come full circle to why you're not especially welcome in these conversations. It's not just a case of disagreement, it's outright refusal to compromise because you think it's "irresponsible" or "impossible" to do while throwing out the strawman demigod fear.

[saevel]

It all starts to blur after a while. Either way, you don't see us running to Alla or other portions of this board demanding people come shut the mage only retards up or to mass report people who dare have a differing opinion. It's hard to take people who claim to love a job seriously when they'd gleefully gut an aspect of it (See your agreement to nerfing Composure...) if only because it wasn't good enough to begin with. No, if you loved a job, you'd want more people playing it, eking out every last ounce of potential it had. The commentary accompanying some of the negative replies here reeks more of a grudge than genuine concern for RDM.

Actual real RDM's would want buffs to all aspects of the job, which includes melee buffs. A RDM without melee is a WHM-2 or a SCH-1 depending on who you ask. Heck with SCH getting Embrava their the ones making "demi-gods" out of their party members. Have you guys seen what Embrava does?

50hp/tick 5tp/tick +25% Haste, lasts 12~15 min, can be aoe'd on anyone you can cast haste on. That's right, a single SCH can supercharge six parties, we did up to 4 parties inside WoE last night. That single spell just altered how we do zerg style NM fights, now we're stacking Embrava with our SV BRD rotations and PD rotations.

SCH is now officially better party support then RDM and BRD is the better enfeebler. The BRD version of addle is more potent then ours, similar to how their elegy is more portent the our slow, thankfully they all stack. So now RDM is second if not third enfeebler, considering SCH can aoe their enfeebles. Melee ability and Refresh II is the only thing making RDM different from a gimp WHM, BLM or SCH. That and Dia III, which is made of total awesomesauce.

Nice lecture about "right to have vote counted", you never recorded my name near the melee or "both" list, since their essentially the exact same.

And yeah Seriha, it's why I can't stand BG, good wiki absolutely horrible community. They honestly think they represent the entire game population and fully expected the servers to shut down after lots of them were banned.

[noodles355]

and please refrain from further posts of why you feel said way, this poll will not reflect why, just what.I will post where I damn well please. Had you not made this comment I probably would have had no need to post again. But because you made such a comment, I feel obliged to post to tell you you shouldn't make comments such as these. Don't think for a minute you have any right in telling who can or can not post where.

Oh, and do you know the real reason people are saying "no" and ignoring the "you're getting mage upgrades anyway" portion of the OP? Because we are afraid that someone will read the poll, ignore that part and assume rdms want a buff to melee more than, or instead of, a buff to mage. It is irrelevant that that is not what the poll says. It's not wwhat the poll says, it's what the poll will be mis-interpreted as. That is why I voted "no", and that's why most other people do too.

Funilly enough, it's not to spite Rdm Melee people. It's for fear of misinterpretation as "rdm want melee updates more than, or instead of mage ones".
I can bet you every Rdm who posted "no" will be of the mind set of "I wont complain if we get it as long as we get our wanted mage upgrades first, or as well as.

Would I be happy if Rdm got access to better WS gear, and all sword WSs including Sanguine Blade and Vorpal Blade? Yes I would. Would I be happy if Rdm got native Fencer? Yes I would. Would I be happy if rdm got those, but did not recieve any much-needed buffs to it's mage side? Hell no.

Once again, it's not what the poll states. It's what it will be interpreted as. It would be easy, even with professional translators, for a Dev member to misinterpret "Rdms want melee buffs as well as mage buffs" as "Rdm want melee buffs. [End]", and not the much more accurate "Rdm want mage buffs more than melee. But they would be happy to recieve both".

[Crimson_Slasher]

I just went back and read all your posts in this thread Saevel and you never stated clearly where you would like to be put in the poll, simply clarify and i will place you where you would like to go.

[Buffy]

Melee RDM should die in a fire.

[cidbahamut]

Actual real RDM's would want buffs to all aspects of the job, which includes melee buffs.
No true Scotsman etc, etc.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If I could have it all then yes I'd want everything, but I realistically don't see that happening. You got your toy buff, fine, now let's see SE get to work on making the job relevant in a party setting (and more than once every 2 hours in Sch's case, and outside of niche fights in Smn's case).

EDIT: Of course, I'm not saying neither of those jobs shouldn't continue to receive buffs.

[HimuraKenshyn]

mage improvements!!!!

[Soranika]

I've never put time into RDM but if RDM wield a sword and are suppose to be frontline mages, shouldn't they have some competent place there?

I do admittedly have a poor understanding of RDM's role, but wouldn't significant buffs to En- spells to make them useful against mobs with elemental weaknesses?

[Seriha]

If elemental weaknesses meant more, possibly, but Enspells haven't aged well and T2s carry their own issues. In a nutshell, the RDM melee "issue" is a number of smaller issues which could easily be fixed that collectively add up to hurt its physical potential. The social stigma that follows is its own can of worms, some inspired by the game mechanics, others with people just being internet jerkwads.

[Hyrist]

Which is why I protested the poll.

First off, it's the WRONG kind of Poll. Melee adjustments for RDM are going to happen, REGARDLESS. RDM is going to benefit from the WS adjustments and the skill adjustments and all these global changes that are going to effect RDM with every other job.

So the logic is, if they're going to do it, they might as well do it right by RDM as well, so that the Front Line aspects are viable in a larger variety of areas and situations.

This isn't a matter of 'Choose one or the other." as the poll would indicate. And it's hilarious the amount of hate people have towards it. Which honestly I think it's more along the line of 'oh, me too, I want to be one of cool folks' then any real justification in the basis of fact.

Anything negative stated about RDM's frontline capability, could be addressed, aside from the comparative "RDM doesn't/shouldn't do as much damage as {Insert Dedicated DD here.} in which among any of the logical Melee supporters, you'd never find an argument with.

However, every other argument is hogwash. Stating that RDM should receive NO melee adjustments is stating you want Red Mage's Sword and Dagger skill removed, Enspells Removed or be party cast only. Have their entire Relic/Mythic/Emperian access to be removed, because that's effectively what you're trying to do: Remove RDM's martial aspects from any kind of consiteration, ever.

To which I retort flatly: GO. PLAY. SCHOLAR.

I am completly in support of Mage Improvements for RDM, and for situations in the game to be a no-zone for Meleeing. But those situations should be HNM endgame specifically and that's it. Every other thing from Soloing to Abyssea parties to even Walk of Echoes/Dynamis, Einherjar /Nyzul Isle, etc should all be fair game. And if Red Mages performance in melee isn't up to part for those, then it should be improved.

My stance on the Mage side is for RDM to be the uncontested champion of Enfeebles. To have a Wide Array of potent enfeebles (including more spells not available to other classes, and spells that can react to or be preventative of TP moves) and more means to empower these debuffs, or make them effective on a wider variety of HNM content.

All other roles for RDM in that instance should be secondary. This includes Buffing, Nuking, and Healing.

If there is to be improvements in our buffing line, it needs to be a means that can bypass our self-cast only system, but balanced in a means that it requires us to prioritize particular members of the party rather than reverting to a mindless cycle-mage.

As far as being a more 'Viable healer'. RDM's healing capacity should be on the same level as our nuking capacity, in my opinion. And I don't mean comparably to 'tiers'. I mean in raw performance. In which case I support more potent HoT spells rather than raw Curing power through Cure V.

But bar none, RDM's Enfeebeling should be top priority. Followed by the equivilant peformances on Buffing, Healing, Nuking, and Melee.

The outright neglect of any one of these, however, removes the purpose of this job's existence as a malleable class, and turns it into a ghetto version of classes already in existence.

[cidbahamut]

However, every other argument is hogwash. Stating that RDM should receive NO melee adjustments is stating you want Red Mage's Sword and Dagger skill removed, Enspells Removed or be party cast only. Have their entire Relic/Mythic/Emperian access to be removed, because that's effectively what you're trying to do: Remove RDM's martial aspects from any kind of consiteration, ever.

To which I retort flatly: GO. PLAY. SCHOLAR.


To which I shall retort: If we wanted to play Scholar then we'd play Scholar.

You really need to stop wearing your pants on your head if you honestly think Scholar is just Red Mage without a sword. The two play very differently.

[Swords]

To which I shall retort: If we wanted to play Scholar then we'd play Scholar.

You really need to stop wearing your pants on your head if you honestly think Scholar is just Red Mage without a sword. The two play very differently.

Aye, in the same sense though it's like saying RDM's who want to melee should go play a melee job. Fact of the matter is people generalize that melee jobs all play the same, but in retrospect they all play uniquely even though they serve the same function. RDM's has it's own unique playstyle when it comes to melee, with magic to beef up and support it's damage. Some people like the unique melee aspect of RDM and the choices it gives, but disdain BLU or other melee jobs for their dependency on spells or spell limitations, in other words lack of full self efficiency and flexibility.

[Asymptotic]

RDMs who want to melee should solo.

[Scuro]

It's funny because it only took a whole 3-4 pages of actual poll taking before it blew up into a p*ssing contest of examples and long winded posts. I guess that was bound to occur sooner or later.


RDM's has it's own unique playstyle when it comes to melee, with magic to beef up and support it's damage. Some people like the unique melee aspect of RDM and the choices it gives, but disdain BLU or other melee jobs for their dependency on spells or spell limitations, in other words lack of full self efficiency and flexibility.

What are you talking about? BLU can use just as much magic as a RDM can in DD. Either you can zerg in which case you blow off your heavy spells, or you can just TP and use buffs to supplement damage taken, and maybe throw out a Delta Thrust every now and again to keep the TP down. RDM and BLU use magic equally except BLU's can actually zerg while RDMs cannot (outside of 2hr I suppose). RDM uses magic to stay alive, or else they would be dirt napping every AoE or pulling hate (if such a thing were godly possible, and if it were in my shell, I would break the damn thing, kick everybody out and start over new.)

[saevel]

And while I'm hoping all aspects of the job get enhanced, both mage and melee, our melee is the side that is hurt the most. It's so hurt that you have people coming on and saying "its not what RDM is for", when the job ~IS~ clearly designed for that, just poorly implemented.

Stated my preference right there crimson. We should get updates to ALL our components.

And yes a SCH/RDM is identical to if not better then a RDM in all ways except,

Refresh II
Dia III

They have better healing, better party support, better nuking, and better crowd control / enfeebling. The only thing left to RDM is it's melee capacity, which while being solid is sorely lacking in the gear department. WS's are fixed via CDC, but I can't expect every RDM to have an almace.

[Swords]

BLU's can't use everything they have at their disposal at any given minute, and if you equip all the spells you think you would need for any such situation you do run into the situation where you may have to give up a trait/s, which is a spell limitation and shows BLU's dependency on some spells even if they never use them in battle.

[Septimus]

However, every other argument is hogwash. Stating that RDM should receive NO melee adjustments is stating you want Red Mage's Sword and Dagger skill removed, Enspells Removed or be party cast only. Have their entire Relic/Mythic/Emperian access to be removed, because that's effectively what you're trying to do: Remove RDM's martial aspects from any kind of consiteration, ever.

To which I retort flatly: GO. PLAY. SCHOLAR.

I can't believe that I am letting myself be pulled into this quagmire.

No, stating that RDM should get no melee adjustments means just that, that the melee stays where it is. RDM melee is and always will be a toy. It is something that is done on trash mobs because if you are fighting a real mob you have other things that you should be doing.

I don't know how many of you guys remember this or were playing back then, but a while back there was a bug after an update that caused melee damage to no longer have a randomized factor. Meaning that you always hit for the same amount of damage, so it was very easy to test to see if your attack was capped against a monster's defense. During this bug I went to Beaucedine Glacier for some reason or another, and found out to my horror that my melee damage as a 75 RDM was not capped against the tigers and goblins there, mobs that were 30+ levels under me. That was the exact moment that I became disenchanted with RDM melee.

I know someone is going to retort with "your melee gear must have sucked", (I don't think that I wore any because I hadn't been expecting to melee) but the point is that our base attack is so low that it wasn't capped against level 30-40 mobs at 75. This is not something that is worthwhile. A RDM is never going to get a party invitation because of a melee buff, we need buffs for enfeebling and enhancing to be a useful job again.

[Fredjan]

To re-literate since my last post:

I'm honestly not against RDM getting a melee buff of any kind, such as getting more WS's without having to use certain support jobs. Temper was given to RDM to help them in this aspect, although I still stick by my opinion that it should NOT have been self-target only (in said scenario, it wouldn't be Accession-compatible anyway, rule of thumb as most people know is that Scholar has to be capable, or eventually capable, of casting the spell - this was the case with Regen III on WHM before SCH was able to learn it - plus I think most saw SCH learning that anyway).

I've meleed on several mages - White Mage, Red Mage, and Bard, I know it can be fun for a change of pace all too well. What got me hooked wasn't enspells, it was White Mage's Hexa Strike. In fact, I leveled Red Mage because I wanted to be able to support my parties more efficiently at the time. In early levels, sure, I meleed, I just couldn't justify it after 50. Anyway...

If they had made Temper able to be cast on others, not only would it have been a melee buff, it would've been an additional reason to actually PLAY Red Mage in a party/HNM setting, and they would've gained a good enhancing magic spell while SE'd also show they're listening to their own "Job Manifesto Vision". Red Mage is by no means a godly party "enhancer", but more of a superior debuffer (when the increased acc. is deemed mandatory).

In a nutshell Refresh II/group 2 merits (aka: increased potency enfeebles, not unique) shouldn't be the only spells a RDM main can offer to others, and I'm sure everyone would agree with me on this.

If it's worth noting, people don't tell me to play Scholar either, though with the 2hr spell additions this may change in zerg situations. My activities while playing Red Mage are when I normally don't have any intention of wielding a sword, so therefore, I'm more in favor of mage adjustments, which SHOULD be SE's priority. Getting Raise II and Thunder IV really wasn't enough to be considered a "mage" addition, neither is a 10-minute-recast-for-1-Chainspell'd-spell job ability (it's cute). While Raise II did surprise me, Thunder IV was expected.

My view of gaining Raise II is simply this: We can raise people slightly faster now. As everyone knows, exp difficulty doesn't exist. You can get capped exp from mobs in visions of abyssea areas at level 95... given enough time for the "chain" builds up.

tl;dr, my "view" has somewhat changed:
I want a reason to be able to actually gear Red Mage and offer it to people that normally would want my White Mage or Black Mage. If they gave RDM something to offer to the front lines, I'd take it, if it meant people'd ask me to play it - however, considering how dangerous front-lining can be in a serious event by the time we're 99, I don't consider it to be likely. Thus, it's more likely our "back-line" aspect would be buffed. Auras would be kinda cool, as SE has already done this through "Sphere" effects on the Rare/Ex Voidwatch bodies.

But the most likely case will be this:

A RDM is never going to get a party invitation because of a melee buff, we need buffs for enfeebling and enhancing to be a useful job again.

I have NEVER been invited on Red Mage to do anything but the above as well as healing/occ. nuking.

I feel the same way on Scholar - Enmity+/- spells and a 1/tic Regain spell aren't enough to get people to tell me "Play Scholar!", though like I said before, the 2hr spells could change this. However, SCH = different subject = different thread, so I'll leave it at that. :p

It's sad when the only thing that excited me this update when it comes to RDM in particular was the ability to cap cure potency with much greater ease (4% cape, 10%/12%/15% body). It may not be Cure V, but it's an addition none-the-less. Getting Thunder IV was kinda cool, but when I can nuke for far greater damage on Black Mage and Scholar, it's kinda "meh." But at least it's an additional !! spell.

[saevel]

Umm RDM has the following..

Refresh II
Dia III

and ... that's it.

For "enfeebles" Slow II is 5% stronger then Slow 1, they both cap at dMND=75. Para II is so unreliable, that there still isn't hard numbers on it's effects, years after it's creation. Elegy is 50% Slow cap, no merits required. SCH can hit the same Slow 1 cap and aoe it, aoe sleep and the rest. BLMs have had sleepga II for ages along with BRD and BLU.

So honestly, I have yet to see where this "supporting" the party is coming form. What exactly are you doing? Casting Haste / Refresh / Cure IV on everyone? Because every time I hear "supporting" it's always in relation to those three spells, something a WHM/RDM can do and do better. A SCH/RDM can do all but haste, a SCH/WHM can do haste and at 99 a SCH/RDM completely replaces us.

So umm, yeah... supporting ... got it ... way to leach a spot.

[saevel]

And the really funny thing about "supporting" the party, you can do it just as easily /NIN as you can /WHM with a staff on your back. Thanks to these things called gear macros. <Waiting for the staff argument to come in>

@Sept,

Go troll else where. There is no such thing as "base attack" for a job, its skill + STR/2 + JT + gear. Meaning if a WAR wears mage gear and use's H2H or a staff then their gonna have "crap base attack".

RDM is B in swords, BLU is A-, skills have all gone up at the same rate post 75. 269-250 = 19, WAR is ~exactly~ the same skill as us. BLU has less base STR, it's spells put them at right about our level if not 1~6 points higher. WAR is about 5 points higher depending on level (@95 the stat gap is getting smaller). At 75 my RDM was sitting on the same attack as a BLU. Since then BLU's have gotten better TP gear and RDM hasn't got much better so they've pulled ahead but not by much.

It's WAR's JA's that give it insane attack growth, Berserk is just that good.

And one final note on that subject.
Gain-STR is giving me +20 STR (+10 attack), and Temper seems to be 12~13% DA at the same enhancing magic. So yeah our melee capabilities aren't exactly meager.

[Seriha]

I can't believe that I am letting myself be pulled into this quagmire.

No, stating that RDM should get no melee adjustments means just that, that the melee stays where it is. RDM melee is and always will be a toy. It is something that is done on trash mobs because if you are fighting a real mob you have other things that you should be doing.

I don't know how many of you guys remember this or were playing back then, but a while back there was a bug after an update that caused melee damage to no longer have a randomized factor. Meaning that you always hit for the same amount of damage, so it was very easy to test to see if your attack was capped against a monster's defense. During this bug I went to Beaucedine Glacier for some reason or another, and found out to my horror that my melee damage as a 75 RDM was not capped against the tigers and goblins there, mobs that were 30+ levels under me. That was the exact moment that I became disenchanted with RDM melee.

I know someone is going to retort with "your melee gear must have sucked", (I don't think that I wore any because I hadn't been expecting to melee) but the point is that our base attack is so low that it wasn't capped against level 30-40 mobs at 75. This is not something that is worthwhile. A RDM is never going to get a party invitation because of a melee buff, we need buffs for enfeebling and enhancing to be a useful job again.

Well, I don't know what kind of defense Beauc mobs would have, but I'd venture a guess you were floating around 300 ATK or less if you weren't using melee gear. If they have more than 150 DEF, I'm not surprised you saw what you saw. Forget exact numbers, but a WAR would probably have been hovering around 430 before Berserk, give or take some GA merits. By default, we know two-handers will have more ATK/ACC. Of course, I also could've broken 400 ATK on RDM in gear at 75, but wearing such gear basically meant no Haste, and swords are a different beast than great axes.

Now, let's take a gander at Enspells. How much ATK would you need to boost a hit by 27 points of damage? This should arguably be where RDM is picking up the slack on their damage, but the scaling needs to be a bit better with resist issues going away. The fact RDM is rather limited to mediocre physical WS with their mediocre ATK that Enspells don't help is one of those cumulative issues I hinted at where just wanting to play the role wasn't enough. It outright requires attention from SE to veer things away from solo status or telling people the only time they're allowed to enjoy a job is when fighting trash.

As is, we're one of the best suited jobs for magical WS, though the current magical WS aren't exactly known for their big numbers. Even with Sanguine Blade, breaking 1k isn't terribly impressive if others are doing 2.5k+ (I'm trying to look at this from an outside Abyssea perspective, mind you). I'd actually like a variable elemental WS between Vorpal and CDC (hopefully closer to CDC) that adopts an element and SC properties based on your active enspell. Suddenly the ATK deficiency isn't so bad and that gear you're probably carrying for nukes can double as a WS set.

This still won't put RDM on par with Ukon WARs, but as others have said, that's not really what we're seeking. We still know the debuffs, buffs, nukes, and cures exist and that MP is finite in regards to GG's strawman scenario. You'll want to be giving the RDM Marches and such if they're swinging, and obviously won't have Idle/Refresh gear on if engaged. So it's just Refresh II and Convert sustaining doling out debuffs, the occasional cure, and maybe an MB or two.

Rather bluntly, hybrid jobs pre-BLU lacked the tools to be hybrids (still do, really), and the only reason BLU does as well as it does is because they got their own special system that discouraged staff swapping, gave them access to various traits regardless of sub, were certainly geared better, and got some nifty things where, mix-and-match, "specialists" would like to have in their toolbox. I'd love a Dream Flower equivalent on RDM or Charged Whisker on BLM.

Either way, this isn't so much me trying to "drag you in" as you put it, but more in that solutions aren't as impossible as some might want us to believe while still leaving room for more mage-y things that, by default, already have their own perks like safety at range, the ability to regenerate more MP more quickly, and potency advantages. And even if melee integration was somehow tied to new, potent enfeebles (or even enhancing current ones), would you not agree that higher risk should yield higher reward? Such is a glimpse at the utility angle beyond the damage aspect.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Not stepping in to debate, just saying, in my current ws gear, my redmage at 90 outside abyssea has:

RDM/NIN (Sword)
STR: 83+53 (8 str merits)
DEX: 79+15
VIT: 75+10
AGI: 76+2
INT: 80+5
MND: 76+5
CHR: 74+5
HP: 1239
MP: 741(12 mp merits)
ACC: +22
ATT: ~540
DEF: 285
DA: 8%

(numbers adjusted because of substituting minuet for brutal ear)
Dunno how that is compared to another light DD like dnc or nin or thf, but at the time when i wrote that info down, my dark knight was less than 80 more attack over that (more now due to recent gear upgrades such as +2 gear)

[saevel]

Well in the past it was our acc that had issues not our attack. Other jobs had sufficient acc that they could go the haste + meat route, where as we were stuck with haste + sushi. Then SE invented this awesome thing called Pizza / Pizza +1. Gives us acc and attack, usually enough acc to cap hit rate and then some along with some attack with it. Still not as good as the meat eaters but makes it more then worth while.

At 75 I was TPing in around 350~380 attack, BLU was right at 398/400, and WAR with swords (just for comparison) was around 420~435 depending on gear. Things like hauby and kitty pants were really amazing at 75. Now at 90~95 things are a bit different. Once I get done leveling BLM (in pt now) I'll post actual numbers on my RDM.

CS now tack on +20 STR from Gain-STR (and I'm elvann btw). And next level 25 from Gain-DEX / STR / INT / MND.

[cidbahamut]

SCH can hit the same Slow 1 cap and aoe it, aoe sleep and the rest.

Wut tenletters

[Greatguardian]

So many people in this thread either just do not understand Scholar, or do not understand that having Black Magic and White Magic together does not an equivalent class make.

Protip: The biggest difference between Rdm and Sch is not a Sword. Nor, before it's brought up again, is it Slow2, Dia 3, or any spell in our library.

[saevel]

ok TP gear,
95 RDM/NIN
HP: 1416
MP: 711 (12/12MP)

STR 96+35 (8/8 merits)
DEX 81+15
VIT 83
AGI 75+10
INT 78+5
MND 85+5
CHR 78+5
Total Attack: 527
Total Accuracy: 445
Sword: 391 (8/8 Merits + 5 from ear)
DW: 30%
Haste: 24%
DA: +10 then +13 (Temper) for +23 total
TA: +2
Store TP: +11-3
Subtle Blow: +5
Magic Accuracy: +8 from Chakram
Crit Hit Rate: +5% (Neck)
Damage Taken: +10% (Neck)

Acc: +19 -8 +15 (Composure)
Atk: +63
Some evasion down from head and movement speed down from hands and some +enmity from belt.

+27 Enspells, +20 Gain-STR +12.5~13 Temper and Composure as self buffs.
Food of choice is either Pizza+1 for VT or higher, or Bison Steak for T or lower mobs.

WS set (CDC)
Attack: 555

STR: 96+35
DEX: 81+45
Lots more acc due to changing into Tumbler trunks andK.hachimaki head (Sword+5 acc+12). After Maat's Cap for WS piece.

*Note*
I carry tools for the NI spells for -earth resist, -thunder resist and -ice resist. Just incase I need the extra m.acc for those respective spells, its -30 resist (+30 acc) and ultra fast casting.

[Septimus]

@Sept,

Go troll else where. There is no such thing as "base attack" for a job, its skill + STR/2 + JT + gear. Meaning if a WAR wears mage gear and use's H2H or a staff then their gonna have "crap base attack".

RDM is B in swords, BLU is A-, skills have all gone up at the same rate post 75. 269-250 = 19, WAR is ~exactly~ the same skill as us. BLU has less base STR, it's spells put them at right about our level if not 1~6 points higher. WAR is about 5 points higher depending on level (@95 the stat gap is getting smaller). At 75 my RDM was sitting on the same attack as a BLU. Since then BLU's have gotten better TP gear and RDM hasn't got much better so they've pulled ahead but not by much.

It's WAR's JT's that give it insane attack growth, Berserk is just that good.

And one final note on that subject.
Gain-STR is giving me +20 STR (+10 attack), and Temper seems to be 12~13% DA at the same enhancing magic. So yeah our melee capabilities aren't exactly meager.

Just because someone disagrees with you, it does not mean that he/she is trolling, it may mean that he/she just disagrees with you.

I could go into a whole debate about base attack (what I mean is the number based off of your skill and STR without any equipment), but the point is that it takes more than just attack to make a damage dealer. Yes, BLU and RDM can have similar attack, but attack doesn't modify the BLU's main source of damage: spells. A WAR has exactly the same sword skill as a RDM, but the WAR is still going to wipe the floor with a RDM's melee, not to mention that the WAR's Great Axe skill is significantly higher, on top of all of the melee traits and job abilities that WAR has. RDM melee is simply a toy, it is never going to be a serious part of the job, and it is not going to make the job useful in end-game situations. RDM desperately needs improvements in enfeebling and enhancing to be wanted for any fight that matters. Maybe once that is addressed then we could get something for melee, but it must always be remembered that RDM melee is, was, and will forever be just a toy compared to heavy DD jobs.

[Seriha]

So, what kind of current situation(s) are we looking at that demands a SCH flip-flop between Arts schizophrenically and in turn be a lesser choice than RDM?

[saevel]

So, what kind of current situation(s) are we looking at that demands a SCH flip-flop between Arts schizophrenically and in turn be a lesser choice than RDM?

None, already been over this with others. Most SCH's will just cast in the wrong arts and eat the penalty if they only need to cats one spell from the opposing type. A SCH in a "support" role would just stay in LA+AW as /RDM and go about their business. With more strategems and now a duration strategem they can aoe Enspells / Phalanx / Stoneskin to their hearts content. Debuff the mob with Slow / Para (if its not resistant) and Dia II. Throw out a Dispel / Sleep if its needed, but honestly the BLM's and BRDs will be handling most sleeps. Cure IV spam and even aoe Cure IV spam if needed.

Really it's everything RDM/SCH can do and more. Only thing it's missing is Refresh II and Dia III. If their needed for haste cause a WHM's not covering it they could just go /WHM and skip the AW strategem requirement. Their native sublimation makes refresh a non-issue so the spell is really just for others if they need it.

I REALLY tried to find situations where you couldn't just replace the RDM with a SCH or a WHM and could only find one. Saboteur + Dia III right before a boss zerg. But with Embrava you want a SCH anyway and between the two, Embrava beats out Sab Dia III. Best choice would be to use BRD x 2, SCH, RDM and SMN together for zergs.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Keep whm in pt > have rdm sabo dia 3 > drop rdm > never have sch in pt because they can embrava outside pt.

[Doombringer]

Keep whm in pt > have rdm sabo dia 3 > drop rdm > never have sch in pt because they can embrava outside pt.

scary ruthless.

[Shiyo]

Stated my preference right there crimson. We should get updates to ALL our components.

And yes a SCH/RDM is identical to if not better then a RDM in all ways except,

Refresh II
Dia III

They have better healing, better party support, better nuking, and better crowd control / enfeebling. The only thing left to RDM is it's melee capacity, which while being solid is sorely lacking in the gear department. WS's are fixed via CDC, but I can't expect every RDM to have an almace.
Actually the complete opposite, RDM/SCH is better than SCH in every way because the only things that matter are refresh2, haste and debuffs.

In zerg situations, sure, SCH is superior, but what exactly do we zerg besides AV/DL again?

Once SCH can /rdm and gets access to haste, SCH will just be worse than a RDM/SCH always.

SCH needs another set of unique amazing stratagems like they had at 75(Manifestation and accession), these were the two things making SCH unique and wanted.

Actually having more tiers of nukes is helping a lot though, a few more buffs to it's light arts and tier2 weather/tier2 hellixes and SCH will destroy RDM in usefulness and fun :D

[Fredjan]

The irony in this is that I don't disagree, I just tend to go into detail...


Umm RDM has the following..

Refresh II
Dia III

and ... that's it.

For "enfeebles" Slow II is 5% stronger then Slow 1, they both cap at dMND=75. Para II is so unreliable, that there still isn't hard numbers on it's effects, years after it's creation. Elegy is 50% Slow cap, no merits required. SCH can hit the same Slow 1 cap and aoe it, aoe sleep and the rest. BLMs have had sleepga II for ages along with BRD and BLU.

So honestly, I have yet to see where this "supporting" the party is coming form. What exactly are you doing? Casting Haste / Refresh / Cure IV on everyone? Because every time I hear "supporting" it's always in relation to those three spells, something a WHM/RDM can do and do better. A SCH/RDM can do all but haste, a SCH/WHM can do haste and at 99 a SCH/RDM completely replaces us.

So umm, yeah... supporting ... got it ... way to leach a spot.

Yet at earlier levels RDM did shine more in the "support" department, I don't think that can be argued. RDM's ability to support the party "more" compared to other jobs has declined more and more ever since the level cap increases from 75 IMO.

1) That is EXACTLY what I said. RDM has Refresh II and group 2 merits. That's it. My post said RDM needs more party support from spells than that.

2) SCH cannot AoE Slow. Enfeebles are only AoE'able through Manifestation, and they have to be Black Magic.

3) WHM DESTROYS RDM in party support right now, /RDM or not. There's a reason my post pretty much said "I want RDM to be USEFUL as a whole." and therefore every aspect of our job needs to be looked into.

WHM gets stronger enhancing magic than RDM (barspells are a PRIME example, WHM/SCH destroys any other job combination using barspells, and that doesn't even factor WHM's ability to merit barspell efficiency). My WHM can provide 170 resistance to an element. I wish my RDM was able to do that. WHM even gains the Boost- spells, something I would've rather seen go to RDM. I can see it now, people wanting my WHM to Boost-STR...

Most jobs are capable of doing similar, if not stronger, enfeebles (BRD w/Elegy like you said, and since they've likely got a stronger Addle too). At least Elegy and Slow stack.

4) Saboteur was a step in attempting to fix Red Mage's enfeebling ability to make it shine more IMO, but more needs to be done, I couldn't agree more with that. It's a shame really, the job with the highest Enfeebling Magic having one of their primary enfeebles outperformed by a Bard song, and jobs like BLM getting Sleepga I/II, whereas RDM had to sub BLM or SCH to gain AoE sleep.


And the really funny thing about "supporting" the party, you can do it just as easily /NIN as you can /WHM with a staff on your back. Thanks to these things called gear macros. <Waiting for the staff argument to come in>

And counterpoint #5 to previous quote) When people actually had to earn EXP to get 75, RDM did offer more to a general party than most mages. That's where the "supporting" came from. WHM shined as a healer, BLM shined as a nuker, RDM was capable of doing both fairly well and offering Convert/Refresh to last longer compared to those jobs. I also had to main heal 95% of my parties especially after level 40 - situations where I NEVER had time to wield a sword, let alone use /NIN to gimp my healing ability just to wield a couple swords.

Obviously, things change. The old days where the level cap were 75 are long-gone, and that's probably why this thread even exists to begin with, because Red Mage NEEDS things to make it useful again. As things are, RDM barely even offers anything to a party through "support" that other jobs can do just as well, if not better... it's gotten so bad that I know I'm not offering much on RDM main anymore in the back-line that's unique to the job, yet that is also the most likely case for future additions to affect the RDM job in an end-game situation.

RDM can obviously melee better now than it's ever been capable of. Gain-STR, Chant du Cygne (which is seriously a huge boost to sword's offensive ability, and if I don't have that, or at least Vorpal Blade, I don't see the point in trying in this day and age, because those are decent steps to improving RDM's melee ability), Temper, etc. Getting the WS issue fixed is the first step. Getting the gear for it is the other step. If I want to /NIN and melee, one'd better believe I'll take the necessary steps first, otherwise it could end up being a hindrance.

But owell /wall of text discussion off. I've said all I intend to say in this thread, and re-literate this point: I do hope RDM gets stuff to make it useful as a whole again, because ever since they announced the level cap increase from 75+ onward, RDM has gotten less and less spell/"support" wise compared to other mages and other mage jobs have only gained more. Sure, RDM got the expected Tier IV nukes, Addle (and then WHM+BRD got it), Raise II (yawn worthy imo), Refresh II due to other jobs gaining Refresh from /RDM, Saboteur (the first hopeful thing I saw since the level cap increases), and now the mini-Chainspell JA at 95 (which is cute) and Temper (to aid in RDM's melee endeavors). All I can say is I hope further additions change things big time, because I barely take RDM gear out of my safe/locker/satchel/sack outside of leveling it or messing around because I miss using the job.

Not to mention when I want to melee, I simply gear up my Caladbolg DRK and go to town.

[noodles355]

Elegy is 50% Slow cap, no merits required. SCH can hit the same Slow 1 cap and aoe itElegy stacks with slow.

Sch's slow is terrible. If you can honestly say it's equal then you dont deserve to call yourself a Red Mage. Sch caps it's Slow at 29.3% Slow. Rdm caps Slow at 32.2% (AF3+2 Body says hi). With Saboteur it's 70.8% Slow (AF3+2 hands say hi). A 5/5 Slow II with AF3+2 body and hands with Saboteur caps at 103% Slow. That's more than a soul voice elegy.

Yeah, Rdm slow sucks.

-------
[Seperate Post, below is not a reply to Saevel]
-------

ITT: melee fans are mad because they think everyone voted "no" in the poll because they are against them, or to spite them.
I suggest you read my last post. We say no because we don't want the poll mis-interpreted as "we want melee more than, or instead of mage buffs". How many times will this needed to be pointed out? I bolded it and stated it at least three times in my last post, yet you cry and continue to say everyone is against you?

You know, I know, and every non-retarded RDM knows that there is a time and a place for melee. Difficult HNMs with dangerous TP moves is not the time to melee. But you already knew that. Any good Rdm, whether they like melee or not, knows when is an acceptable time to melee. Voidwatch, Rani, Raja, Azdaja, and such are not those times. Walk of echoes (basic mobs, not boss), Dynamis, Campaign, and other such casual content is fine.
There is nothing wrong with meleeing on acceptable content. Rdm melee gets stigma because you get idiots running around with Almace/Some other sword and full mage gear. There will always be stigma, get over it.

Yes, there are issues with Rdm melee. Many of them have been covered. Many of them have been covered repeatedly.
Red Mages who come to these forums and try to shut all the big melee fans up are not doing it to spite you. They are doing it for the same reason as replying "no" in this poll: We are scared of mis-interpretation. We are scared if SE reps come in and see nothing but the same Melee issues thrown over and over in the majority of topics, that they will think Rdms concider melee a bigger issue than our magic side, and they will focus 90% on melee upgrades and neglect our spellcasting side.

[Stylin]

Melee RDM should die in a fire.

Nope, no spite in that comment at all, no sir.

Speak for yourself Noodles. It's really hard to believe what you say when everybody around you is making loaded comments like that.

[saevel]

Sch's slow is terrible. If you can honestly say it's equal then you dont deserve to call yourself a Red Mage. Sch caps it's Slow at 29.3% Slow. Rdm caps Slow at 32.2% (AF3+2 Body says hi). With Saboteur it's 70.8% Slow (AF3+2 hands say hi). A 5/5 Slow II with AF3+2 body and hands with Saboteur caps at 103% Slow. That's more than a soul voice elegy.

And this is where you show you've never actually used RDM in a NM fight, the only location enfeebles matter.

SE nerfed Saboteur hardcore, its only 25~50% effective vs anything that's ITG. At most its 40% slow effect or 48% slow II effect. Also slow suffers from diminishing returns due to the haste formula. 100/129 = 0.77.5 (29% slow for a 22% effect), 100/140 = 71.4% (40% slow for a 28% effect). Even stacking with a BRD's 50% elegy your only looking at a 98% slow, 100/198 = 0.505, 50.5% effect. This effect is only present on the NM's melee swings, their TP / spells are completely unaffected. And BTW it's their tp moves and spells that will kill you, PLD's laugh at melee hits. Seriously we do. On top of this, we have to use a JA just to hit those numbers, a BRD just sings a song. And no a SCH has the exact same Slow as us, its just dMND that determines the power. Our enfeebles are absolutely crap (except Dia III) on NM's due to SE's design. No amount of gear will get around their design.

@Fedjan,

I agree with everything you said. The anti-melee-rdm stigma comes from 2003 / 2004 era parties where a RDM was invited to refresh the WHM / BLM / PLD, hence the refresh-whore nick name. Haste / Cure / Enfeebles were an after thought. You invited the WHM for healer, the BLM for damage, the PLD for tanking, then you chose between a RDM or a BRD for refresh (BRD's melee buffs were mostly ignored at that time) and some random DD's to form a SC. You fought ridiculously hard mobs for slow XP gain but big numbers. Later when we discovered that melee's hitting weaker mobs were better XP, parties looked for ways to fit in more melees. First to go where the BLMs because they all mana-burned anyway, then it was the WHM as it was figured a RDM was "good enough" healing and they had convert / refresh / haste / cure IV, the only things a PT wanted. Then the power of BRD buffs were discovered and that cemented RDM forever as the PT cure and haste dispenser. It was the party mechanics that forced RDM into the healing role, not SE.

Now we're in abyssea XP era, where you no longer have to fit as much as possible in six party slots of people in the same level range. Now you can invite anyone and get great XP. RDM no longer is forced to spam inefficient cures and go through mind numbing cycles. HNM though hasn't changed too much though. NM's have always been extremely resistant to enfeebles. We were never brought to HNM for "enfeebling", we were there for "Refresh" on the healers, and occasionally a Cure IV. About our only special situation was RDM/DRK CSS'ing dangerous mobs during their 2hr's or during a zerg. Let's not kid ourselves, we were NEVER masters of enfeebling nor alliance support. We were just a class with mediocre healing magic, mediocre elemental magic, mediocre enfeebling magic and mediocre melee skills, buffing is non-existent as two spells don't a buffer make. Outside of a few solo's that abused the games pathing AI and poor NM design (bind / grav / dot / nuke solos) we never did anything amazing.

Don't be delusional.

[Rezeak]

(This is all outside abyssea stuff)

SCH v RDM is a dumb arguement....

Mainly b/cause RDM is RDM and u use it for enfeebling or refesh II which defintly puts it in a surrport role.

Where SCH is different

SCH either Nukes or Heals or surrport alliance heal.

Nuking it has 2 niches

1. Low Mp nuking
basically being able to cast spell for 33% of there cost every 48 secs at the same time recovering around 10 mp a tick means that over time SCH should out nuke any job.

2. Low hate DMG
Honestly while you don't see it much helixs can put out 2-3k worth of DMG for say 300-400 DMG worth if hate

Outside this SCH nukes are pretty strong to the point it's single target stuff is stronger than BLMs nukes the only issue is it's all stratagem dependent and BL/SCHM will get hailstorm at 99 anyway which will close the gap.

Then as a healer/ally healer

Ok WHMs are the best healers but in a ally to have 1 healer being a SCH is a great thing since it doesn't need surrport (10-12 mp a tick from sublimation/gear) Stratagems that allow it to aoe heal any party or boost the potency of cure IV either way as a healer SCH is really good at being an ally healer.

Sorry but RDM really doesn't take anything from SCH or SCH from RDM were as SCH v BLM or SCH v WHM is a valid argument

[noodles355]

And this is where you show you've never actually used RDM in a NM fight, the only location enfeebles matter.

SE nerfed Saboteur hardcore, its only 25~50% effective vs anything that's ITG.Link for proof? BG sources would suggest otherwise. There's an ability from your best debuffing sub (Stun says hi), called elemental seal, which should help you land it for 6 out of 10 minutes (and with 2 rdms, keep it up fulltime). If you don't need elemental seal, then you can keep it up solo with one rdm.

Whether NM's melee hits are the issue or not is irrelvant. You posted that a SCH's Slow was equal or better than a Rdm's, which is just completely not true. (Also, Manifestation doesn't work with Slow, meaning you can't AoE it. Just fyi.)

[Neisan_Quetz]

Yes it actually was nerfed (half potency on NMs iirc, including fucking Bubbly Bernie) but calling Sch slow 5% behind Rdm is still off.

Old pages haven't been update in awhile.

EDIT: not sure on which update it was but they did post "An issue wherein the effects of the red mage ability "Saboteur" would exceed intended limits has been resolved."

Only relevant thread I could find quickly - http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=2&mid=1292392735199041455

[saevel]

And now for some education to those who think their really "mage" RDMs and doubt me in the slightest.

If your going to Saboteur an enfeeble, your wasting your time with Slow I/II / Para I/II. Instead use Dia III and I'll show you why I went 5/5 on it.

Dia III is -15% defense, defense like haste is the denominator of the formula. Thus a 15% reduce it 100/(100-15) = 17.6% attack boost. With body its 18% for 100/(100-18) = 21.9% attack boost. And on something ITG its 50% effect (60% with +2 gloves), some of them are 25% effect (30% with +2 gloves).

So Dia III could be 18.75 ~ 22.5 or 22.5 ~ 27 reduction in defense. 27% is a 36.9% boost to everyone's attack. A WAR with 650 attack would be hitting as though he had 889 attack.

Now for the kicker, it stacks with other forms of defense down. Namely a DRG's angon which is -20%. Combined with our Dia III you get 35% def down or 53.8% attack boost. And finially Angon + Sab Dia III (assuming NM is only 50%) ends up with 47% def down or 88.6% attack boost. A 650 attack WAR would be hitting as though he had 1225 attack. Basically every single DD auto-caps or nearly does the attack ratio on whatever NM your fighting, even the super high def turtle ones. Even the lowly RDM @527 attack would be hitting as though he had 993 attack.

Heck on regular monsters with a non-sab Dia III (18%) I'm looking at 527 * 1.219 = 642 effective attack.

Ahh the wonders of math.

Our single greatest debuff is Dia III, and its power is unresistable and completely unaffected by gear (except emp body). Thus a RDM/NIN with gear swap macros can "enfeeble" just as much as a RDM/WHM / RDM/SCH pink-mage can. We can refresh / haste the same as a backliner. The only thing that is worse is we lose the 10~22 from staff. EXCEPT they just made a Cure +10% sword that has really nice DPS. SE's giving us a hint.

[saevel]

Link for proof? BG sources would suggest otherwise. There's an ability from your best debuffing sub (Stun says hi), called elemental seal, which should help you land it for 6 out of 10 minutes (and with 2 rdms, keep it up fulltime). If you don't need elemental seal, then you can keep it up solo with one rdm.

Whether NM's melee hits are the issue or not is irrelvant. You posted that a SCH's Slow was equal or better than a Rdm's, which is just completely not true. (Also, Manifestation doesn't work with Slow, meaning you can't AoE it. Just fyi.)

Umm it was BG that verified that it was 50% on ITGs. And later only 25% on certain super NMs (Rani says hi). The 25% is most likely because the NM has a flag 50% reduction.

[saevel]

(This is all outside abyssea stuff)

SCH v RDM is a dumb arguement....

Mainly b/cause RDM is RDM and u use it for enfeebling or refesh II which defintly puts it in a surrport role.

Where SCH is different

SCH either Nukes or Heals or surrport alliance heal.

Nuking it has 2 niches

1. Low Mp nuking
basically being able to cast spell for 33% of there cost every 48 secs at the same time recovering around 10 mp a tick means that over time SCH should out nuke any job.

2. Low hate DMG
Honestly while you don't see it much helixs can put out 2-3k worth of DMG for say 300-400 DMG worth if hate

Outside this SCH nukes are pretty strong to the point it's single target stuff is stronger than BLMs nukes the only issue is it's all stratagem dependent and BL/SCHM will get hailstorm at 99 anyway which will close the gap.

Then as a healer/ally healer

Ok WHMs are the best healers but in a ally to have 1 healer being a SCH is a great thing since it doesn't need surrport (10-12 mp a tick from sublimation/gear) Stratagems that allow it to aoe heal any party or boost the potency of cure IV either way as a healer SCH is really good at being an ally healer.

Sorry but RDM really doesn't take anything from SCH or SCH from RDM were as SCH v BLM or SCH v WHM is a valid argument


SCH/RDM has

Slow
Paralyze
Bind
Gravity
Dispel
Dia II
Sleep I / II without DA/AW
Refresh 1
Regen III
And next update Haste
Enspell
Phalanx
Stoneskin (they have this naively now)
Blink
Barspells, if you really want to count them.
Cure IV
All status cures
Reraise III
Tier IV nukes
Then all their Weather spells
All their Helix Spells
And now the single best buff in the game, Embrava.
And the single best DoT in the game, Klaustrum.
JA's that AOE the above spells
JA's that reduce cost of above spells
JA's that reduce casting / recasting time of above spells
JA's that enhance potency of Cure / Nukes
JA's that enhance duration of buffs
Granted the above two require 2HR usage and are used sparingly.

Umm that leaves RDM with,

Slow II (5% above normal)
Paralyze II (no consistent data existing, years after it's release)
Dia III (godly)
Refresh II (godly, but BRD's is better)
JA that increase potency / duration of next enfeeble, half effective on ITG.
JA that increase's our melee and self buff capacity
JA that replentish's our MP supply

And now a JA that makes next spell instant cast / recast, or next party members spell instant cast / recast. Timer is 10min, seriously needs lower timer.

Hmm, I think SCH made out like a bandit here. I've already explained how Slow is actually crap at higher potency, its effectiveness diminishes rapidly past 25%. Paralyze is completely random and most of the current end game NM's are 100% flat resistant to it. Same with Break. Addle is weak, and further weakened on NM's due to flat potency reduction.

So for party support SCH crush's a RDM almost as badly as a WHM does. Their almost our equal in enfeebles, with Dia III being the only one that sets us apart. And "enfeebles" as a category suck, seriously no alliance / LS leader brings a RDM along for "enfeebles". We are there to give the WHM a 7mp/tick refresh that stacks with the BRD's 9mp/tick ballads. We're occasionally asked to stun, depending on the monster.

Elemental Seal .. seriously ..... wow.

At no time in the past 20 levels has magic accuracy on enfeebles ever been an issue. It's so LOL that the BLM's laugh at it and have asked that ES be changed into a nuke enhancing JA. It's only use has been to land Sleep on extremely resistant NM's / or Sleepga for groups in certain BC / KSNM style fights. Other then that your landing one guaranteed nuke per 10min, and a MUCH better sub for that would be /SCH.

[Neisan_Quetz]

So Sch's best buff is once every 2 hours, and doesn't even require them to be in the pt, so they're like Smn, but worse since Smn actually needs an invite.

[saevel]

So Sch's best buff is once every 2 hours, and doesn't even require them to be in the pt, so they're like Smn, but worse since Smn actually needs an invite.

Yep it's that good.

Of course you do realize they get all the same buffs we do and can aoe them. And here's another kicker, their duration JA is normally 2.0x duration, but with a SINGLE piece of their +2 its 2.5 duration. So they can aoe buffs for 2.5x duration, better then our single target 1.8~1.9x duration. Their a RDM+2 in the buffing category.

Seriously, if they were so busy trying to be BLM-1's then they'd realize they were one of the best buffers in the game. Actually I honestly thing it's on purpose, they don't want what happened to RDM to happen to them.

Same as BLU's and suppor / healer role. A BLU/SCH (or /WHM) is a superior healer then a RDM. Their seconded only by WHM's in this duty due to how their cures scale. M.Fruit and P.embrace have separate timers and follow the regular cure formula, except their base potency is higher then Cure IV. Thus whatever we can get out of Cure IV they can get higher out of both of theirs. They also have erasega in the form of Winds of Promyvion, 36mp 20s recast. They also have a super cheap aoe cure Healing Breeze and the ridiculous White Wind. From /WHM they can get Haste, single target erase and all the -na's. They have a 250~280 point aoe stoneskin that doesn't require JA's to use, /SCH gives them better healing power all the -na's but lacks haste. Problem is the BLU's are too busy trying to be DD's to notice their one of the games best healers. Or really none of them want to heal and actively avoid it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

And until they can do that to haste (SE already blocked that) or get higher than Cure 4 no one will really care outside of using them for zerg/Kaustra.

I don't think anyone for a second believes that crap about turning allies into demigods in the first place, or SE has a very loose translation of demigod.

[saevel]

And until they can do that to haste (SE already blocked that) or get higher than Cure 4 no one will really care outside of using them for zerg/Kaustra.

I don't think anyone for a second believes that crap about turning allies into demigods in the first place, or SE has a very loose translation of demigod.

SE never said anything about us turning allies into demi-gods, it was turning ourselves into demi-gods but badly translated. We've gone over this.

And .. you realize the WHM casts haste right? Or the BRD/WHM, or anyone /WHM (SMN/WHM comes to mind). Heck you can cast haste across the alliance or out of party. This isn't 6-man merit party anymore, stop thinking that way. The haste spell isn't something restricted to two ~ three jobs (SMN) anymore, its now available to EVERYONE. So take that right off your list of reasons to bring a RDM.

Plus a SCH/WHM can make haste last 450 seconds, that's 7:30 seconds. We can't even hope to reach that duration (like it actually matters).

[Neisan_Quetz]

I never said it was a reason to bring a Rdm, but Embrava being outside pt castable doesn't mean I'm going to be adding Sch to pts anytime soon either.

And no it doesn't matter since you're having them blow all their strats on hastes or Accession buffs... really.

[saevel]

I never said it was a reason to bring a Rdm, but Embrava being outside pt castable doesn't mean I'm going to be adding it to pts anytime soon either.

Its not for you or any of the low man groups. It's godly for a big alliance zerg, and you can't drop people from a VWNM fight, nor from a WoE group. So your gonna drop the SCH ........ for ...... AV? Really missing where a 18 man group would need to drop someone now adays. Like I said, stop thinking 6-man killing birds as being the definition of a job.

And anyway, why bring a RDM over a SCH? Other then Dia III and 4mp/tick (difference from NQ refresh and HQ refresh II), there is absolutely zero RDM brings to the table as "mage". They can bring a significant amount of damage, but we're talking in your "RDM is a mage" universe.

[Neisan_Quetz]

And that's exactly why I'm for SE improving Rdm's mage aspect, and not more toys like Temper.

[saevel]

And that's exactly why I'm for SE improving Rdm's mage aspect, and not more toys like Temper.

Ahh see your biased, you consider anything "melee" to be a "toy", even when its +13% DA. SE could release en-death in a spell, and you'd still call it a "toy". And this is also where our views diverge, I'm for SE enhancing all aspects of RDM, not a single one. I want more melee stuff, but I also want much more magic stuff.

I'd like SE to create spells that are like temper (in that only one can be up) but are
+Magic Attack Bonus
and another one for
+Magic Accuracy
And potentially another for +Cure Pot, but that's reaching a bit.

Also would prefer the following enfeebles and have NM's not immune to them. Also use enfeebling skill, not the BLM version that scale poorly and don't stack worth a damn.

Attack-Down
Defense-Down
Magic-Attack Down
Magic-Defense Down
Evasion-Down
Accuracy-Down
Magic-Evasion-Down
Magic-Accuracy-Down
Crit-Rate-Down

And then base STAT enfeebles
Reduce-STR
Reduce-VIT
Reduce-DEX
Reduce-AGI
Reduce-MND
Reduce-INT
Reduce-CHR

Would like for SE to give us the rest of the Regen line already, and a special RDM only super HoT, similar to what Embrava does (Embrava is based on Enh Magic BTW) only we don't need a 2hr for it. And I mean only the regen power, they can keep the rest as it's their 2hr.

And while I'd prefer RDM not to get Cure V, with VI being the way it currently is, I wouldn't mind if they gave WHM something even better. Possibly a JT that WHM's cures can randomly remove status ailments, and give WHM Erase II with the ability to remove multiple status ailments on each cast.

Healing outside Abyssea isn't about brute force Cure power anymore. Your tanks get afflicted with crazy status ailments, and lots of them. They need removed ASAP, so you end up with the WHM, the BRD/WHM and myself (RDM/SCH) spamming erase / paralyna / silena on both our PLD tanks right after a NM does a crazy move.

[Neisan_Quetz]

For game balance? Yea it is, Look at twilight scythe, endeath and it's still a joke, mortal ray for Blu- also a joke. Temper is good for meleeing but it doesn't make us any more viable for 'alliance fights' any more than it did pre update.

Rdm is still behind Blu in white damage, and that's with temper/gain-str, and they aren't exactly in high demand for tougher fights either.

[saevel]

For game balance? Yea it is, Look at twilight scythe, endeath and it's still a joke, mortal ray for Blu- also a joke. Temper is good for meleeing but it doesn't make us any more viable for 'alliance fights' any more than it did pre update.

Rdm is still behind Blu in white damage, and that's with temper/gain-str, and they aren't exactly in high demand for tougher fights either.

All the more reason to buff the melee side then.

As I've said in several threads, I'm already doing the "melee RDM" thing, have been doing it since 2003 when I first played the game. It's had its ups and downs. Was never an issue in the past, you just had some really bad RDM's meleeing in crap gear and ignoring the primary reason they were invited (refreshing the WHM, BLM and PLD). Later once full time healing become expected, then you were simply too busy, plus main healing and meleeing are not compatible with each other.

Meleeing only took a hit post 76, when SE did stupid things like putting us on teal but not the pink gear, yet BLU gets both. Putting BLU on mage gear but keeping RDM off most melee gear for the past couple of updates. Thankfully it looks like that time is over now, as we've been thrown a few bones.

SE has made a point that their going to be doing more to encourage RDM's to melee, they've also made a point that their going to introduce more enfeebles. Melee updates are easy to do and they've demonstrated proficiency in doing so, even if the sometimes need feedback. Enfeebling on the other hand they've screwed up since day 1 and I don't expect them to get it right.

Anyhow back to the point at hand, all sides of RDM should be buffed. RDM melee is not a toy, to anyone who's actually tried it becomes rather obvious that it's not a toy. Are we like the WAR / MNK / SAMs? No and we shouldn't be. We're good enough to contribute rather then standing in the back with our stave's shoved where the sun don't shine pretending to be useful. At least up front I'm actually contributing measurable and meaningfully rather then pretending that the extra 10 MND on Slow I get from using a club will actually do something.

[Neisan_Quetz]

And I'm perfectly fine with it post Temper. Keep including Rdm on new gear and Rdm melee is just fine where it's at for me.

[saevel]

And I'm perfectly fine with it post Temper. Keep including Rdm on new gear and Rdm melee is just fine where it's at for me.

This and fix the WS distribution for non-emp RDM's. Fixing enspells would be nice too.

RDM doesn't need *more* melee buffs, they need what's there to be fixed already. Its the mage side that needs more shiny spells.

[Swords]

I never said it was a reason to bring a Rdm, but Embrava being outside pt castable doesn't mean I'm going to be adding Sch to pts anytime soon either.

And no it doesn't matter since you're having them blow all their strats on hastes or Accession buffs... really.

Heh, 2hr chest pops are pretty common in Abyssea SCH's can just spam the hell out of Embrava at their leisure making it more of a zerg fest than it already is, I find it hard anyone would overlook that fact since Abyssea is about the only thing that matters in this game too most.

Even outside it would be pretty damn invaluable, it's like a superpowered atma and it has a long duration with Perpetulance. Get 2-3x SCH/WHM's for Voidwatch cycle Embrava when they wear and you have a constant superpowered regain/haste/regen throughout the battle, what melee job WOULDN'T want to abuse that. And while most do not generally melee on VWNM's in a normal setting, it does not mean it wouldn't open up the possibility.

NINJA EDIT: For added effect SCH's could also throw out extended duration/aoe Regen III's and stoneskins for damage mitigation, and single haste's to put the melees pretty damn close to the haste cap (if they have haste capped via gear/hasso).

Pretty overpowering potential for one job if you ask me. ;P

[Shiyo]

Too bad SCH is completely useless inside abyssea.

[Shiyo]

All the more reason to buff the melee side then.

As I've said in several threads, I'm already doing the "melee RDM" thing, have been doing it since 2003 when I first played the game. It's had its ups and downs. Was never an issue in the past, you just had some really bad RDM's meleeing in crap gear and ignoring the primary reason they were invited (refreshing the WHM, BLM and PLD). Later once full time healing become expected, then you were simply too busy, plus main healing and meleeing are not compatible with each other.

Meleeing only took a hit post 76, when SE did stupid things like putting us on teal but not the pink gear, yet BLU gets both. Putting BLU on mage gear but keeping RDM off most melee gear for the past couple of updates. Thankfully it looks like that time is over now, as we've been thrown a few bones.

SE has made a point that their going to be doing more to encourage RDM's to melee, they've also made a point that their going to introduce more enfeebles. Melee updates are easy to do and they've demonstrated proficiency in doing so, even if the sometimes need feedback. Enfeebling on the other hand they've screwed up since day 1 and I don't expect them to get it right.

Anyhow back to the point at hand, all sides of RDM should be buffed. RDM melee is not a toy, to anyone who's actually tried it becomes rather obvious that it's not a toy. Are we like the WAR / MNK / SAMs? No and we shouldn't be. We're good enough to contribute rather then standing in the back with our stave's shoved where the sun don't shine pretending to be useful. At least up front I'm actually contributing measurable and meaningfully rather then pretending that the extra 10 MND on Slow I get from using a club will actually do something.

Can I live in the universe you live in too? Must be cool there in bizzaro land.

[noodles355]

The more I read this thread, the more it becomes apparant that our mage side is in serious need of some loving. Maybe people shout stfu about melee until these more serious issues are sorted out. We don't want SE to mis-interpret and think we want melee upgrades more than mage ones.

[Doombringer]

eh, yah. i fall on the pro-melee side of this thing, but we just got temper. if nothing else it shows that my opinions are on the devs radar. i'm willing to sit back for a while and see what they do with backline stuff.

don't gemme wrong i hope they don't completely FORGET melee stuff for another 3 years... like last time they decided to "return rdm to the frontlines" but it's the other sides "turn"

[Daniel_Hatcher]

The more I read this thread, the more it becomes apparant that our mage side is in serious need of some loving. Maybe people shout stfu about melee until these more serious issues are sorted out. We don't want SE to mis-interpret and think we want melee upgrades more than mage ones.

And I want both sides buffed, people forget it DOESN'T have to be one or the other.

[saevel]

Heh, 2hr chest pops are pretty common in Abyssea SCH's can just spam the hell out of Embrava at their leisure making it more of a zerg fest than it already is, I find it hard anyone would overlook that fact since Abyssea is about the only thing that matters in this game too most.

Even outside it would be pretty damn invaluable, it's like a superpowered atma and it has a long duration with Perpetulance. Get 2-3x SCH/WHM's for Voidwatch cycle Embrava when they wear and you have a constant superpowered regain/haste/regen throughout the battle, what melee job WOULDN'T want to abuse that. And while most do not generally melee on VWNM's in a normal setting, it does not mean it wouldn't open up the possibility.

NINJA EDIT: For added effect SCH's could also throw out extended duration/aoe Regen III's and stoneskins for damage mitigation, and single haste's to put the melees pretty damn close to the haste cap (if they have haste capped via gear/hasso).

Pretty overpowering potential for one job if you ask me. ;P

We've already done this with one SCH vs Bastok T4 VWNM. We had them 2hr, the BRD 2hr and me Sab Dia III onto the harpy and everyone went to town. Got her to 24% extremely fast then she used a move that did 1700+ damage to all DD's, killed be through stoneskin along with all the melee except our PLD. He finished the fight off a couple of min later as he was still under the effect and is an Almace + O.Chain PLD.

With the proper application it's ridiculously powerful, we're already worked it into our zerg strats.

[saevel]

The more I read this thread, the more it becomes apparant that our mage side is in serious need of some loving. Maybe people shout stfu about melee until these more serious issues are sorted out. We don't want SE to mis-interpret and think we want melee upgrades more than mage ones.

We want them both to the same level, not one preferred over the other. I'm for all three of our facets being buffed (WHM, BLM, WAR) and given updates too, not one or two. If you want to focus only one one side of RDM then go play a specialized job, this job is about being a part WHM, part BLM, part WAR. And over the past 8 years it's been the melee side that's been neglected the most. What your experiencing now in the mage world is what melee side has been experiencing for nearly 8 years. You complain about 1~3 years of stagnant mage growth when the job has 6~8 years of stagnant melee growth.

Seriously, learn the meaning of balance.

[Seriha]

To be honest, I have a bit of a hard time saying that even the mage aspect has stagnated nearly as much as the melee side had. Every piece of our Emp set is useful and upgrades to nuking gear having come with a lot of the updates along with the tier ups. We might still be stuck with Cure IV, but we've grown beyond just the Apollo's Staff for potency. Break, Addle, and Gain-MND should also be feathers in the mage cap. It might not be the most unique or exciting of upgrades, but they've been there.

[saevel]

Ohh I didn't mean that our mage side as received no buffs. Just that how RDM's who only played the "mage" side feel now, the general feeling of uselessness caused by other jobs outclassing them, it has existed for the melee's since 2003/2004. And RDM mage mode is far from useless, it's just not the best at anything anymore. Same situation the melee is in, it's not useless, not anywhere near, but its not uber power either.

I've always said this, RDM is a composite of three class's, White Mage, Black Mage and Warrior. It's been this way since the first Final Fantasy game ever made. All three are equally important and trying to play RDM while ignoring any of them results in an incomplete job.

[Soranika]

Forgive me for over stepping. I decided hit up wikipedia for this and use a bit of recollection of RDM in previous games. I know how some of you fill about wikipedia and some one who's never played the job past subjob. >.<

Red Mages typically cast both Black and White Magic and can also wield swords and equip armor that normal Black and White Mages cannot. They are, in essence, among the more versatile characters of the series. However, their versatility comes at a high price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest, and equip some heavy armor, but not all of it. Thus, the Red Mage is a jack-of-all-trades, but a master of none.

Take what you want out of that, but yelling about increasing mage power to make them stand out from other mages when you already have something in place that just need to fixed is pretty much nonsense if you want to stay true to being a RDM. Or am I being incredibly stupid and idealistic about it?

[Neisan_Quetz]

When a jack of all trades isn't versatile, well, it's not a Jack of all trades now is it?

[saevel]

Forgive me for over stepping. I decided hit up wikipedia for this and use a bit of recollection of RDM in previous games. I know how some of you fill about wikipedia and some one who's never played the job past subjob. >.<


Take what you want out of that, but yelling about increasing mage power to make them stand out from other mages when you already have something in place that just need to fixed is pretty much nonsense if you want to stay true to being a RDM. Or am I being incredibly stupid and idealistic about it?


No your right. Many don't want to hear it though.

[cidbahamut]

Forgive me for over stepping. I decided hit up wikipedia for this and use a bit of recollection of RDM in previous games. I know how some of you fill about wikipedia and some one who's never played the job past subjob. >.<


Take what you want out of that, but yelling about increasing mage power to make them stand out from other mages when you already have something in place that just need to fixed is pretty much nonsense if you want to stay true to being a RDM. Or am I being incredibly stupid and idealistic about it?
Yes. letters

[Zaknafein]

Every time I am scanning the new posts section, and I pass by "The debate free poll" I can't help but chuckle...

[Swords]

With the proper application it's ridiculously powerful, we're already worked it into our zerg strats.

Heh, could be jaded just saying this but the naysayer SCH's might just be saying no to this because they know it's coming and don't want to be forced into the same position RDM has been in all these years.

RDM's Scenario 5 years ago:

Player 1> hey you got RDM leveled right?
Player 2> yeah, but I'm on NIN (or whatever other non-essential or numerous job)
Player 1> yeah we need you to go back and change to RDM, we can't run without at least one Refresh/Cure/Haste bish.
Player 2> but can't someone else do it
Player 1> your the only one who leveled RDM so suck it up
Player 2 /emoslashwrist

SCH's Scenario near future:

Player 1> hey you got SCH leveled right?
Player 2> yeah, but I'm on NIN (or whatever other non-essential or numerous job)
Player 1> yeah we need you to go back and change to SCH, we can't run without at least one Embrava/Cure/Haste bish.
Player 2> but can't someone else do it
Player 1> your the only one who leveled SCH so suck it up
Player 2 /emoslashwrist

Oh yeah we can do without like we always have, but with so many people wanting to literally overkill everything in seconds and SE literally handing it to them on a silver platter it's gonna happen.

It's not impossible for BLU to end up in the old pink bird party boat either IMO, throw on a RDM or WHM sub they can become a very competitive healer. Why? Because BLU can sub every healing spell RDM can throw out, but has the added benefit of using their own higher tier Cures/ga/-na's to cycle through. RDM's limitation isn't just the lack raw curative power with Cure IV but the fact it's the only middle-high tier healing spell it has access too so there is a limit to how many times they can cast it at any given moment (which wasn't an issue at 75 cause cure III was much more significant). BLU however, can toss out one then move to another middle-high tier cure spell while the other spell is cooling down.

[CapriciousOne]

Unfortunately we have to deal with reality and not the land of bunny rainbow carpet rides. Development man-hours are limited, despite what certain posters would have us believe, and tweaking melee really doesn't do anything for the job. Magical updates are where it 's at.

I disagree I think they are biased against the job myself. Developers don't have time to revamp red mage because they waste more time on other jobs giving it crap it doesnt really need anyway.

I would love more melee gear with higher total defense for armor sets in excess of 200 DEF that isnt rare or ex as well as higher base damage swords past level 80 nearing a base damge of like 75 or so that also isnt rare/ex as well.

I have little faith in SE doing anything but more mage bs for RDM so i might just hang up RDM permanently and become something else or just quit playing altogether soon. Jack of all trades is just an illusion since apparently melee isnt included. If it wasnt then RDM would have at least tier 1 and 2 of all melee and mage bonus traits at the very least without a sub.

[saevel]

@Swords,

Pretty much nailed it.
Everyone else likes to talk smack, but no one wants to be in RDM's position, ever.

[Seriha]

Or am I being incredibly stupid and idealistic about it?Attempting to adhere to the job theme or concept has been a subject of the argument before. Sadly, you will have people who will gut that purely for functionality even though the hybrid style could be achieved if SE was willing to take the needed steps toward it. And if they did, assuredly these same people would kick and scream because they'd either have to chase new gear or learn to play the job in a way that wasn't a wannabe WHM or BLM. For some, RDM was that easy street to whatever in the past because it was the job everyone wanted around, but very few actually wanted to play. I don't view the fall from grace, as it were, so much a case of RDM declining as it was Abyssea proc system not favoring us very well with both magic and WS. The problems you see some grumbling about now existed back then. The only thing that's really changed is some of the ideas based on things we've seen SE release since.

[Mageoholic]

I am for tweaks to both sides, I like to mage and melee, unfortunately RDM is currently pretty shitty at both.

[Rayik]

We want them both to the same level, not one preferred over the other. I'm for all three of our facets being buffed (WHM, BLM, WAR) and given updates too, not one or two. If you want to focus only one one side of RDM then go play a specialized job, this job is about being a part WHM, part BLM, part WAR. And over the past 8 years it's been the melee side that's been neglected the most. What your experiencing now in the mage world is what melee side has been experiencing for nearly 8 years. You complain about 1~3 years of stagnant mage growth when the job has 6~8 years of stagnant melee growth.

Seriously, learn the meaning of balance.

This. BALANCE.

You want "mage onry", go play one.

You want "lolmelee", go play one.

RDM should be able to do both in a reasonable way. We're getting there, slowly but surely.