Ochain trials... why?

[Arkine]

Hello folks.

I reactivated my FFXI accout in august and so far I've been having fun in Abyssea and just like anybody with a favorite job, I started collecting gear for my PLD.

Got some interesting pieces and found myself slowly discarding piece of gear I used to love, and getting better (easier to get too) things.

That includes my beloved Joyeuse, now just serving as a red proc weapon for my WAR while on my quest to obtain Almace.

Then I figured why not go for Ochain too. Almace's path isn't hard since I'm up to Briarius and @20/50 helms via shout groups and friends whenever they're in the mood.

I started researching and found out that its only 3 trials! awesome!

Except it isn't when comparing it to Almace's trials.

50 briarius helms: I average 3-5 pop sets in 1:30-2:00hours, followed by 30 minutes to kill the Bosses and end up with 5-10 helms. with of course 3 to 5 people, my basic set up is WAR NIN WHM (WAR tanks Bri and his babies with no issues NIN can change to THF ).

50 Sobek Skins: A few Sobek test runs proved that his KIs aren't hard either, except for Guku, but its easily farmed off gold boxes and in general it takes the same amount of time to get 3-5 Sobek sets. (Though the battle is a little harder than Bri's but still not a real challenge)

75 Apademak's Horns: I've killed a few Apademaks, and 5-8 people are ideal and kill it without any issues, and the only real challenge is Sisy's fragments. (obtained from boxes) but still take more time and effort to get Apademak's set.

But Almace is still pretty powerful @85 and the lv90 upgrade is minimal but still, Apa drops some nice stuff that will keep people coming to help. (if you want to proceed with Almace that is)

Now Ochain is a different story.

50 Iron plates: Ok Ironclads are worse than Bri and Sobek, though to pop one it takes about the same time it takes to get for either of the two mentioned above so its alright, though still being somewhat more annoying.

75 Colorless souls: What the hell is this? why 75 not 50? how weird... anyway to get your hands on them souls you have to fight T3 VNMs.
These guys are a million times worth than anything I mentioned up until now. To get your hands on a T3 Abyssite you need to upgrade your T1 Abyssite and that is very random.

1/6 T1 > T2 1/1 T2 > T3 on my 1st test run.

0/25 T1 > T2 on my second try which I'm still on.

Now the T1 battles are ridiculously easy and solo-able, if wasn't for the random drop rate on the Abyssite it would take 5 minutes to jump into T2. (The repop time is instant on the T1 NM)

T2 battle is as hard (sometimes harder) than any KI holder for either Bri or Sobek and upgrading isn't 100% thus taking a lot more time to get to T3 and takes 2-5 people to kill a T2 efficiently. (T2s also use 2H abilities that range between laughable and devastating unlike other KI NMs). These guys repop once every 10-15 minutes, only one per zone and requires you to run around to pop one.

Now that you got your hands on a T3 set (only one) you have to battle the T3 NMs, how hard can it be? well... pretty hard.

The popping: you need to run around until you catch the NM, ok not that bad... except that the repop is an hour, and only 1 T3 per zone (compared to 3 ???s for the other NMs and a 3-5min repop on the ???)

The battle: Harder than the other bosses and the T3 won't die without using its 2Hr which can be pretty risky, and it takes more people to take it down.

Time: assuming you and your 3-5 friends managed to get lets say go 1/1 on T1 and T2 pops resulting in 5 T3 pops in one zone it will take you 5 to 6 hours to get the battles done and net you 5-10 souls.

Of course in reality it'll take much much longer to upgrade one T1 into a T3 and even longer to get the 5-10 souls we talked about.

Now you might say why not have 1 person per zone on T3 thus reducing the repop time by just jumping to the next zone?

Short answer is competition.

On the ??? based NMs, people will take turns, kill them quickly, 100% rate on KI with a red proc and a very short repop time.
Then 3 ???s allow 3 groups to fight the boss at the same time, and still repop fast enough to keep the killing consistent.

Vs

Only 1 group may kill a T2 every 15 minutes and more than once per member to get the upgrade, then only 1 group per 1 hour (compare to 3 every 3 minutes) for the boss.

Even on a good day it'll still take alot longer than other trials.

I dare say this trial alone take more time and effort that Almace's entire series of trials. and the end result is Ochain 85 which is... well not as good as any other Lv85 empy.

But it shines @90 and the trial is...

75 Azdaja horns: To pop you need 1 Deelgeed KI, and he pops every 15-30 mins so on a good day you (and your 4 good friends mentioned before) will take around an hour to get 5 Azdaja pops, then battle him for his horns so all in all its 2-3 hours per 5-10 horns. (Very average time/effort very realistic and doable)

End result Ochain90 is very powerful and a great tool for your PLD.

I can say the same about Almace85, but all things considered, Ochain is far far far harder to get than Almace and that is only because of the colorless souls stage alone. and even after that hard stage Ochain85 isn't as good as any other 85 weapon.

Why is that? how come BRD and PLD get trials far harder and takes much more time to complete than the other empy weapons?

Its possible to pick up party your way through any weapon trials at the pace I mentioned (5 pops per 2-3hrs) but be dead in your tracks on the Colorless souls stage if you don't have dedicated friends willing to waste an ungodly amount of time to upgrade their T1s then even more time to wait for T3 pops. (Or hire mercs for 400k+ per soul)

Now... whats the big picture I'm not seeing here? because this looks very unfair.

Killing 3 NMs for 3 KIs to pop a boss that drops colorless souls just like any other trial doesn't sound so ludicrous to me.

Heck I'd settle for 5-6 KIs to pop one boss to the souls to balance it out since shield and harp don't have any of the kill NM x3-8 times trials. (Which I would welcome btw).


Thanks for reading through my wall of text and sorry for being ranty.

[Greatguardian]

The Dev team justification is that Ochain doesn't have to deal with the mind-numbing tedium of camping a ton of NMs and overworld VNMs. When you add it all together the actual Time component of the trials is fairly similar. Ochain just requires that you actually pay attention during the whole trial rather than AFK/PH kill like you can do for half of the weapon trials.

It's harder, but it's really not too terrible. Drop rates on Ifrit and Diabolos were fixed, too, so that'll help a lot.

[Arkine]

The Dev team justification is that Ochain doesn't have to deal with the mind-numbing tedium of camping a ton of NMs and overworld VNMs. When you add it all together the actual Time component of the trials is fairly similar. Ochain just requires that you actually pay attention during the whole trial rather than AFK/PH kill like you can do for half of the weapon trials.

It's harder, but it's really not too terrible. Drop rates on Ifrit and Diabolos were fixed, too, so that'll help a lot.

While its some sort of justification it still creates a problem with obtaining Ochain when compared to other empys (to me)
which is "help".
You can go shout for 4 people with promises of loot, go do lets say Sobek, get 4 pops and do 5 battles in around 2 hours, but you can't do that with an Ochain, not at the same efficiency.

You can't get 5 people to upgrade from T1 to T3, then fight 5 T5s in 2-3 hours and that severely cripples the pace you get souls at, and the chances of you being the only one camping T2s and T3s is very slim, with the ridiculous re-pop times, it makes getting the shield "alone" unbelievably hard compared to other Empys and it makes the NM camping trials look like a cake walk. (and they already are).

[Arcon]

There's been so many threads complaining about this, every week a new one pops up with the exact same complaints. Not to say they aren't valid, but it's all been discussed to death.

I'll say it here again, personally I don't think it's too bad. It's more casual-gamer friendly than other trials, even if it takes longer. I still know (several) people who got 75 souls in less than a week with the right dedication, and even if it takes a month or so, it's definitely not complain worthy imo.

[Gallys]

As far as I know, T3 repop every 10-15mn not 1h (unless they changed that).
With the right Atmas you can solo/duo the T2 VNMs , Garuda being the hardest one cause of her 2h,still easily handled with wind resist atma/MDT set.

As for T3 , I duo'd most of my souls WHM + MNK/THF(lol).
With atma of future fabulous Ule & Altep T3 are a joke.
For Maere you want a 3rd person because he likes to be an ass and draw-in your healer > nightmare.

The only hard part to me was competition , I did the trial before the update so everyone was spamming Ule.
When you see 15 JPs roaming at Chione spawn area with 10 of them having a T2 abyssite , you know it's time to move.

Good Luck!

[darkvision]

tbh anyone making ochain now have it easy since SE has fixed Maere and Brulo on thier drop rates, tbh Maere was not that bad and was rarely camped for me but brulo was the worst for double drops

everyone used to camp ogopogo but not to sure how it is now.

Also if your determined enough with friends that is willing you can complete ochain in 1-2 weeks which is the same for any other empyrean weapons

50 Iron Plates took me 22 hours
75 Colorless souls took me 1.5 weeks
75 Azdaja Horns took me 44 hours straight

there is no camping NMs before these trials and no VNMs out of abysea to do, tbh i think the trials for ochain and harp are suitable. if your gonna complain about it and not work your butt of for one then its simple, you do not deserve to have one.

stop complaining and just get on with it ffs

before you wonder i have 5 empyreans, that includes Ochain, so i know what it takes to make weapons compared to Ochain.

T2 repop is 10-15 mins
T3 repop is 15-20 mins

just seems Abyssea "easy mode" rubs of for everything whats wrong on working for something for a change?

[Aeonk]

tbh anyone making ochain now have it easy since SE has fixed Maere and Brulo on thier drop rates, tbh Maere was not that bad and was rarely camped for me but brulo was the worst for double drops

Cue the "I did Ochain when it was harder!" remarks.
starting.... now.

I did Ochain when it was harder!


All sarcasm and sillyness aside, OP: yes the 75 souls used to be a gigantic pain in the ass compared to the effort it took to make my sword. But the payoff was well worth it. This shield is not a marginal increase. In fact I'd say it has a better effort/reward ratio than some of the weapons. Suck it up.

[Arkine]

As far as I know, T3 repop every 10-15mn not 1h (unless they changed that).
With the right Atmas you can solo/duo the T2 VNMs , Garuda being the hardest one cause of her 2h,still easily handled with wind resist atma/MDT set.

As for T3 , I duo'd most of my souls WHM + MNK/THF(lol).
With atma of future fabulous Ule & Altep T3 are a joke.
For Maere you want a 3rd person because he likes to be an ass and draw-in your healer > nightmare.

The only hard part to me was competition , I did the trial before the update so everyone was spamming Ule.
When you see 15 JPs roaming at Chione spawn area with 10 of them having a T2 abyssite , you know it's time to move.

Good Luck!

I honestly thought it was an hour since thats what I've been told by people doing them... oh well, and the MNK + WHM thing seems great, I can do that.

It looks alot less of a hassle than I originally "Calculated".

Now the real time sink is upgrading abyssites to T3, so far I have 3 T3s on 3 characters, and it went like this

Grau T1 > T2 1/7 T2 > T3 1/1
Ule T1 > T2 0/28
Altp didn't try yet

Grau T1 > T2 0/8
Ule T1 > T2 1/9 T2 > T3 1/6
Altp didn't try yet
Grau T1 > T2 0/9
Ule T1 > T2 1/5 T2 > T3 1/3
Altp didn't try yet

While enlightened and motivated by what I learned in this thread, I'd be happier if I was able to get these Abyssites to change color faster than this.

WHM THF SAM is the combo I'm using for the T2 and 3 fights.

@darkvision: My issue was never that I'm not willing to work for the shield, the issue was that the way the trial is made prevents me from working alone or with quick pick up PTs.
That created a problem, since I just got back to a very different world with most of my friends (that I can impose on to get T3s made) gone. While I can shout my way to an Almace, I couldn't do so with Ochain.

I still would like a none-VNM path for souls, but since I changed my approach from looking for help to using 3 accounts, I'm hoping to get 10 Souls a week and getting this done in 8 weeks or so.

[Zagen]

Now the real time sink is upgrading abyssites to T3, so far I have 3 T3s on 3 characters, and it went like this

For those who are doing these trials don't bother upgrading on a mule, while it seems faster to do 3 at once it takes just as long as 1 at a time since you're personally doing all the work. If you have real people farming pops while you upgrade in a dif zone/kill T3s then this doesn't apply.

And I'll second (or third w/e its up to) the MNK+WHM works very well on T2 and T3s, imo better than evasion tanking does.

[Arcon]

And I'll second (or third w/e its up to) the MNK+WHM works very well on T2 and T3s, imo better than evasion tanking does.

THF+WHM works too. A tad slower kill, but the tad better rewards make up for it. Survival is a non-issue anyway, except on Ogopogo, depending on your Atma/buffs, but WHM can finish it off easily too.

[Zagen]

THF+WHM works too. A tad slower kill, but the tad better rewards make up for it. Survival is a non-issue anyway, except on Ogopogo, depending on your Atma/buffs, but WHM can finish it off easily too.

I agree on all T2s but I had issues on Brulo as THF but not as MNK. Haven't done Maere so I don't know there.

[Arcon]

I agree on all T2s but I had issues on Brulo as THF but not as MNK. Haven't done Maere so I don't know there.

I've done THF on him too, but the spikes are rather harmless, even if 2x Triple Attack, it's only 400~500 HP lost. May need to turn occasionally to let WHM catch a breath, but it shouldn't be an issue, especially considering Inferno is not nearly as damaging as some AF counterparts. That was with full out DD Atma too, if you gear for Fire-defense it should be even easier.

[Zagen]

I've done THF on him too, but the spikes are rather harmless, even if 2x Triple Attack, it's only 400~500 HP lost. May need to turn occasionally to let WHM catch a breath, but it shouldn't be an issue, especially considering Inferno is not nearly as damaging as some AF counterparts. That was with full out DD Atma too, if you gear for Fire-defense it should be even easier.
Wasn't the spikes that did it, oddly enough he had crazy ACC on me. Well enough that I didn't have shadows up a few times in between TP moves. I may go back and try it again on THF just not a fan of slower kills but TH is nice... heh. Had RR/GH/Apoc Atmas, but didn't really use an evasion set on THF just DD gear.

[Zumi]

I would just speed up the Azdaja process by brewing them. If you can find people to hold KIs for you. His +2 drops aren't all that popular so it can be hard to find KI holders.

[hideka]

personaly i think T2s need to have 3+ spawns. this one at a time every 10 mins and not a 100% vert rate stuff is bogus.

[Raka]

personaly i think T2s need to have 3+ spawns. this one at a time every 10 mins and not a 100% vert rate stuff is bogus.

Couldn't agree more with you.

Thankfully, I'm nearly finished. -.-
Such a task it has been, but can't complain since it will allow me to be more flexible on the field.
Best of luck to the rest of you folks working on this Shield.^^

[Nynja]

You know you COULD attempt to upgrade to a colorful abyssite outside of Heroes areas, where they arent as strong/annoying.


personaly i think T2s need to have 3+ spawns. this one at a time every 10 mins and not a 100% vert rate stuff is bogus.

They should also move the seals off the VNM to an unused pop NM
Koios seals > Waugyl
Chione seals > Anemic Aloysius
Gamayun seals > Burstrox Powderpate

[Jeubond]

personaly i think T2s need to have 3+ spawns. this one at a time every 10 mins and not a 100% vert rate stuff is bogus.

Yes please & why on earth do T3's shatter upon use yet T2's can go up to 1/11 if you are really unlucky [in the end after the 11th I threw it & got another before my sanity was lost forever !].
It seems crazy to me that we can obtain 1 shield by our own hard work & grind [Aegis] yet the Ochain is purely down to PVP/ luck as to who can run & pop it first, I've seen up to 5 people all running & then pure bile & hatred from the others when it is claimed. I'm talking about all 3 possible colorless soul zones here, all are heavily camped at the moment. As if this was'nt enough to put you off you then have to compete for the next stage too, I'm off to lie down in a darkened room . . . . .
Maybe SE needs to re-think it's policy on pops/??? in general & when due to one of it's updates they become heavily camped adjust accordingly ?
PVP should be voluntary, not enforced . . . . . .

[Kimjongil]

75 Azdaja Horns took me 44 hours straight

What on earth are you guys smoking? These horns are cakewalk. As a 99 empy staff holder I needed 75 of these. You can blue mage burn bombs and get the KI to pop this dragon no problem. If you have a dual box to hold a second trigger or friend, or even free exp leaches who only have to hold a KI you can do this in 1-3 afternoons. As for killing this guy in mass time, do a few morta runs. Get Crour, and brew 3x at once. Two weapon skills and the NM is dead. you can kill thre eto five of these before brew wears off

I have no pity for Ochain people. Most ochain users are lvl 90. and wielding 119 gear. Yet a lvl 90 shield beats out all new gear, B.S. if most people took that shield to 99 or 119 then I say sure. But a shield -30 levels under current gear content is a joke that it is still supreme.

At least the brds upgrade their instrument. And Aegis users upgrade their shield.

[Demonjustin]

Ochain has hardly any benefit from being upgraded past 90. Aegis is not only easier and cheaper to upgrade but breaks a Damage Taken cap in a way no other gear in the game does for that damage type, making it insanely powerful, any upgrade to that effect only makes it more powerful, and it can get to the point of practically negating all magic damage. BRDs upgrade because of an additional song for doing so, not the duration, and the duration is the same benefit practically as what Ochain gives, a small benefit which helps but is not anywhere near the millions or hundreds of millions required to upgrade it to 99. Ochain literally gives you a whole 10% more MP per block, a great boon for the shield, not worth the cost, and that is the only change from 90 to 99. There are no 119 upgrades, if there were, you would see a lot more people going for plates to upgrade their Ochain, till then, 10% extra MP from blocks will not come close to being worth it.

[Kimjongil]

Ochain has hardly any benefit from being upgraded past 90. Aegis is not only easier and cheaper to upgrade but breaks a Damage Taken cap in a way no other gear in the game does for that damage type, making it insanely powerful, any upgrade to that effect only makes it more powerful, and it can get to the point of practically negating all magic damage. BRDs upgrade because of an additional song for doing so, not the duration, and the duration is the same benefit practically as what Ochain gives, a small benefit which helps but is not anywhere near the millions or hundreds of millions required to upgrade it to 99. Ochain literally gives you a whole 10% more MP per block, a great boon for the shield, not worth the cost, and that is the only change from 90 to 99. There are no 119 upgrades, if there were, you would see a lot more people going for plates to upgrade their Ochain, till then, 10% extra MP from blocks will not come close to being worth it.

I agree with you t has little benefit, same for 119 empy staff. Heck AA taru staff owns 119 empy. But the sad point is a lvl 90 shield is better than any shield 29 lvls higher than it and pld cry to make it.

[Demonjustin]

All I was saying is there is a reason why people don't take it to 99, you said...


I have no pity for Ochain people. Most ochain users are lvl 90. and wielding 119 gear. Yet a lvl 90 shield beats out all new gear, B.S. if most people took that shield to 99 or 119 then I say sure. But a shield -30 levels under current gear content is a joke that it is still supreme.

Which seems like you expect people to upgrade it, when the benefit is so little that one would be a fool to upgrade this unless they are an amazingly diehard PLD who has everything else they could really want.

Just because people don't take it to 99 doesn't mean that it should be such a pain to make one, and the fact its 29 levels lower than everything else is even more reason why it should be easier to make, instead, souls are the worst part of this trial and SE has seemingly said that at this point we are just going to have to deal with it.

[Martel]

I agree with you t has little benefit, same for 119 empy staff. Heck AA taru staff owns 119 empy. But the sad point is a lvl 90 shield is better than any shield 29 lvls higher than it and pld cry to make it.The clear solution is to add 119 a upgrade to Ochain. XD The pained howls of PLDs everywhere who suddenly MUST get 1500 plates and then 60 dross echo across vana'diel. Mine included, lol.

But if the upgrade included any increase in block dmg- or skill+ then I'd jump right on board. And if it didn't, nothing would have changed, and only PLDs with nothing left to make would upgrade it.

[dasva]

The clear solution is to add 119 a upgrade to Ochain. XD The pained howls of PLDs everywhere who suddenly MUST get 1500 plates and then 60 dross echo across vana'diel. Mine included, lol.

But if the upgrade included any increase in block dmg- or skill+ then I'd jump right on board. And if it didn't, nothing would have changed, and only PLDs with nothing left to make would upgrade it.

Well if it goes like the 95 and 99 upgrades go the changes will be +40 vit and 45% dmg converted to mp. <.<.

Not that I want to have to retrial but I seriously don't understand why, now especially with things attack for 600 base dmg and uncapping block rates on ochain, that ochain and aegis both didn't gain any block rate or defense as you trialed them up. I mean I remember them saying before how Ochain was effectively ilvl 150 or something but a 117 shield already comes rather close. So that doesn't really seem to fit. Sounds like really it will be trumped next ilvl increase.

[FaeQueenCory]

The clear solution is to add 119 a upgrade to Ochain. XD The pained howls of PLDs everywhere who suddenly MUST get 1500 plates and then 60 dross echo across vana'diel. Mine included, lol.

But if the upgrade included any increase in block dmg- or skill+ then I'd jump right on board. And if it didn't, nothing would have changed, and only PLDs with nothing left to make would upgrade it.
So true... even if it was a thing to 119 Ochain and Aegis... given the iLvfication of the other REMs... the only benefit from iLving them would be more fake skills.
Cause pretty much only SMN's Mythic got a real change in potency from the iLvs: +2 levels, +40MAB>>>+40%BPdmg
And given the hidden effects on both, the fake skill isn't really worth anything.... because it's kinda redundant.


Well if it goes like the 95 and 99 upgrades go the changes will be +40 vit and 45% dmg converted to mp. <.<.
It's more likely that would they do this... the stat buffs will remain unchanged... just fake skill and other iLv bloat would be added. (though in the case of shield, just +shield skill)
Just like all the nonNirvana REMs.

Not that I want to have to retrial but I seriously don't understand why, now especially with things attack for 600 base dmg and uncapping block rates on ochain, that ochain and aegis both didn't gain any block rate or defense as you trialed them up. I mean I remember them saying before how Ochain was effectively ilvl 150 or something but a 117 shield already comes rather close. So that doesn't really seem to fit. Sounds like really it will be trumped next ilvl increase.
Heck, I've gotten Ochain level block rates with Beautific. Sure for less DR... but still, a 113 shield with 113 level skill bonus and a visible effect that mimics the hidden effect of a supposed "150" level shield...
I've never believed the "ochain is 150" arguments people make.... because I believe it stems from a critical understanding failure:
"ochain has the block rate of a iLv150 shield" =/= "ochain is iLv150"

And like I mentioned previously.... which you substantiate, Dasva, high levels of shield skill that comes from iLv shields becomes redundant when combined with the hidden effects of Aegis and Ochain. (which is most readily apparent on a lower iLv shield with less shield skill and the visible effect: beautific.... the 119 Beautific is gonna be sick.)

[Ophannus]

They said Ochain was equivalent to a ilvl150 shield so I doubt they'd buff it anytime soon?

[dasva]

The problem is Ochain clearly isn't anywhere near ilvl 150. The 117 is darn close and in a lot situations better. And the new skirmish+1 shield looks like it might be fairly comparable as well and is equippable by alot of jobs. Ochain seems to be more like ilvl 120 at most

[Martel]

What the heck happened in here? We seem to have lost a few posts somehow. 2 of them mine, irrc. <,<

[FaeQueenCory]

The problem is Ochain clearly isn't anywhere near ilvl 150. The 117 is darn close and in a lot situations better. And the new skirmish+1 shield looks like it might be fairly comparable as well and is equippable by alot of jobs. Ochain seems to be more like ilvl 120 at most
This is what I've seen too, though mostly at looking at different PLDs in random WKRs. (which is pretty much the only place you're gonna be able to observe two plds block the same thing, one with Ochain and the other with another shield. What I'm remembering was specifically two PLDs: one Ochain, the other a r15 Delve shield.... Being SMN give you enough leeway to still cap your evals and watch other people near you.)

Ochain being 150 is, flat out, a heinous lie. (just like not using Rem Tales for the Relic and Empyrean gear update.)
Maybe back before they had the influx of fake skill and reevaluation of what iLvs mean... the addition of stat bloat... all that stuff...
I'm pretty sure that Ochain = 150 is erroneous now due to one fact:
iLv 117 Balsam went from +60MAB to +120.
As a mess of other stats on various items were adjusted similarly in the aforementioned update.
Ochain = 150 may have been true at the beginning of iLvs... but given how iLvs have been readjusted... it holds no water anymore. (and I suspect that the huge adjustment update was also when they decided that iLv119 would be the cap.)

[Kawar]

There's been so many threads complaining about this, every week a new one pops up with the exact same complaints. Not to say they aren't valid, but it's all been discussed to death.

I'll say it here again, personally I don't think it's too bad. It's more casual-gamer friendly than other trials, even if it takes longer. I still know (several) people who got 75 souls in less than a week with the right dedication, and even if it takes a month or so, it's definitely not complain worthy imo.Well i am going to say as a guy who is on souls right now.It is really not that bad at all the little trick everyone uses is make 3 T3 pops then pop 1 at a time in each Zone if they both drop 2 you can get 6 souls that way and it is not that bad if you do it like that or you have some friends like me who are willing to let me get there souls from pops they have laying around.I do not know about horns but from what people tell me that is really not that bad at all ether.all i can say is keep at it you will be very very happy in the end.