Decoy Shot - Change the text for ranged attacks

[Helel]

I was just doing some voidwatch today and it's somewhat difficult to know whether I'm standing in the right position or not. I'm not sure if it's like TA where you have to be exactly behind them, or if there's some leeway like SA. I propose changing the text of ranged attacks to indicate when decoy shot is procing, perhaps by indicating to whom the enmity is being diverted.

With that said, the ability is amazing!! Thank you very much for this addition. With relic gun, it's almost impossible to pull hate now.

[Vortex]

I think you're confusing decoy shot for relic guns almost hateless WS cause decoy shot dosn't seem to work, no matter how many times i use it hate is always still on me, it's either broken or not "working as intended"

[Feliciaa]

It's not a 100% enmity transfer so you can still pull hate. From what I have read it's more like a 20% enmity transfer but I could be wrong since I looked at it with Google Translate... Here is what I posted in the other Decoy Shot thread.

Google Translate fails but it's better then nothing.. Maybe.. >.>
Link (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25E5%25BF%258D%25E8%2580%2585%25E3%2581%25AF%25E3%2582%2582%25E3%2581%2586%25E3%2581%25A1%25E3%2582%2587%25E3%2581%25A3%25E3%2581%25A8%25E5%25BF%258D%25E3%2581%25B6%25E3%2581%25B9%25E3%2581%258D%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DSU1%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Divns&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ja&u=http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11488-2011-07-15%25E3%2580%2580%25E3%2582%25B8%25E3%2583%25A7%25E3%2583%2596%25E8%25AA%25BF%25E6%2595%25B4%25E3%2582%25B3%25E3%2583%25B3%25E3%2582%25BB%25E3%2583%2597%25E3%2583%2588%25E3%2581%25AB%25E3%2581%25A4%25E3%2581%2584%25E3%2581%25A6-%28%25E7%258B%25A9%25E4%25BA%25BA%29/page13&usg=ALkJrhjYOvFVkSLcESzNDIsIOGE6DSP-vQ) (Scroll down a little to view his post) from the JP RNG forum post by Mocchi (JP Mog Community Rep.)


The decoy shot "a certain amount of hostility", the "percentage" But, "I have a limit," nor do.
The explanation based on examples.

The hunters' hostility - "The state has no effect when given at 250 ranged attack damage when using a decoy <br /> shot hostility is added damage is 250 minutes.

At this time, hostility hunter and target are added to the PC is as follows.

Hunter: PC 50-minute qualifying Damage: Damage plus 200 minutes

Equipment such as a hunter "-20 hostility" with the effect of damage on ranged attacks if you give 250 <br /> shot when using a decoy, the effect of -20 enmity, hostility is added Damage is reduced to 200 minutes.

At this time, hostility hunter and target are added to the PC is as follows.

Hunter: PC without being added: Damage plus 200 minutes



As the above example, a hunter hostility - by being aware of such equipment without adding to his hostility to the hunter, only to the target PC will be able to take over the hostility. (For high-power weapon skills, such as Sidewinder, including hostility to significantly reduce the stealth shot, fighting would be the key-conscious hostility.)

Also, everyone is concerned about "the upper limit of hostility that can be take over" is not provided, unless the duration, you can keep the assumption of hostility.


Be summarized as follows.

1.Abilities and equipment caused by a hunter, "hostility -" The effects to be aware, you can walk about without adding to their hostility.
2.If the decoy effect of the shot in, take over your PC can be many times more hostility.
3.Each time an attack can take over to a certain amount of hostility.
4.The total amount of hostility that can be offloading (※) no upper limit on.


By the time one minute attack ※ 1, will take over the hostility will be five minutes if you attack 5 times.

[Vortex]

I guess asking for it to be a straight trick attack clone is to much, but still it isn't enough for me :l

[Feliciaa]

It's a start but you need to get behind a tank and shoot. Which gives it a really high risk factor of getting you killed in the process since a lot of hnm moves can 1 shot a low HP job like rng.

[Saelae]

My Japanese is a little rusty but the example section in the JP Rep post roughly translates to this:

If a ranger uses no -emnity gear with Decoy Shot:

A ranged attack dealing 250 damage adds 250 damage worth of emnity normally.

With a target PC, emnity is added as follows:

Ranger: 50 damage worth of emnity added.
Target PC: 200 damage worth of emnity added.

When a Ranger wears -20 emnity gear:

A ranged attack dealing 250 damage only adds 200 damage worth of emnity due to the -20 emnity effect normally.

With a target PC, emnity is added as follows:

Ranger: No emnity added.
Target PC: 200 damage worth of emnity added.

I'm not certain, but the wording of the rest of the post implies that the transferred amount is fixed per ranged attack (no word on what, if anything effects the amount, or whether the example of 200 is the official number.) It also talks about using stuff like stealth shot to deal with powerful WS's like Sidewinder. Most of the rest seems to be stuff already known. An official translation would be appreciated.

My opinion is a fixed amount is a bad idea as it's too difficult to balance vs. a percentage. It will either be too strong on difficult mobs or too weak on easy mobs. Nevermind that WS's will suffer the most from a fixed amount and is the area where RNG needs emnity adjustment the most.

[VZX]

I'll help a bit pointing the most important point from what Mocchi saying.

It's point #3 and #4:
3. When ranged attack occurs, it's possible to transfer a _fixed_amount_ of enmity
4. The cumulative enmity transfered to other PC has no upper cap. (As such, if you do 1 ranged attack, there will be one occurrence of enmity transfer, and if you do 5 ranged attacks, you'll get 5 occurrences of enmity transfer)

About Sidewinder, he gave an example where Stealth Shot is a better option suppress the enmity from a such very damaging attack. So decoy shot is not the ultimate means to suppress your enmity on the entire fight. The knowledge when to use what is the key to keep enmity at low level.

So, I think this is a pretty good JA overall, you can do 4x as much damage (of 0 enmity level) before you worry about mob have their attention locked on you.


It's a start but you need to get behind a tank and shoot. Which gives it a really high risk factor of getting you killed in the process since a lot of hnm moves can 1 shot a low HP job like rng.
For most of the time, you can stand at max ranged attack distance to avoid boss monster attack. It's particularly hard if you're only given limited space like most of Voidwatch fights or a fight where your tank's back must face the wall.

[Feliciaa]

I got more time to play with decoy shot and I'll have to agree that this ja is really nice. especially when you combo it with a relic weapon and the -enmity options RNG can equip.

[Lumiya]

So to make sure I am understanding this correctly... if you do 100 damage, you transfer X enmity, and if you do 1000 damage, you still transfer X enmity? If that is the case, I honestly don't see how this is good at all, at least not for Abyssea. From my personal experience, RNG deals more damage per hit than any other job in the game by about double, so I don't really see how a fixed amount of enmity transfer solves the problems at all. Maybe the wave of the future will be Loxley Bow or back to old school Holy Bolt setups since the additional effect gives no hate?

I don't know, it seems to be alright, but it isn't really that amazing. I would of rather had something that transferred a flat % of enmity, not something that only transfers a insignificant portion of enmity. Sorry for the rant, it is better than nothing.

[Feliciaa]

Don't look at any of the new stuff with Abyssea in mind. That part of the game is over. When you look at Decoy Shot think about it in terms of high level HNMs or VW nms where mp is limited, you can't super boost dmg, and pulling hate can get you or an alliance killed very quickly.

My guess is they will also improve RNG's -enmity when they look into redoing the Job specific merits too. So we should round off very nicely once all that comes into play.

[VZX]

So to make sure I am understanding this correctly... if you do 100 damage, you transfer X enmity, and if you do 1000 damage, you still transfer X enmity? If that is the case, I honestly don't see how this is good at all, at least not for Abyssea. From my personal experience, RNG deals more damage per hit than any other job in the game by about double, so I don't really see how a fixed amount of enmity transfer solves the problems at all. Maybe the wave of the future will be Loxley Bow or back to old school Holy Bolt setups since the additional effect gives no hate?

I don't know, it seems to be alright, but it isn't really that amazing. I would of rather had something that transferred a flat % of enmity, not something that only transfers a insignificant portion of enmity. Sorry for the rant, it is better than nothing.
You need to run on some calculation first before saying anything. Suppose the enmity transfer really worth 200 damage of enmity, then as long as your damage below 800 (with enmity-50 total), you won't grab mob attention.

800 enmity with -50 enmity gear will produce 400 enmity worth of damage
200 out of 400 enmity will be transferred to the PC where decoy shot applied on.
So both character gain the same amount of enmity and RNG doesn't pull the mob attention from that PC.

Flat % of enmity isn't that any better than the current implementation too. What if I pull a 200 damage worth of enmity? The current system give 0 hate to me but 200 damage to the player, while the % flat enmity transfer will leave some enmity on me and less than 200 damage of enmity to other player.

[Lumiya]

You need to run on some calculation first before saying anything. Suppose the enmity transfer really worth 200 damage of enmity, then as long as your damage below 800 (with enmity-50 total), you won't grab mob attention.

800 enmity with -50 enmity gear will produce 400 enmity worth of damage
200 out of 400 enmity will be transferred to the PC where decoy shot applied on.
So both character gain the same amount of enmity and RNG doesn't pull the mob attention from that PC.

Flat % of enmity isn't that any better than the current implementation too. What if I pull a 200 damage worth of enmity? The current system give 0 hate to me but 200 damage to the player, while the % flat enmity transfer will leave some enmity on me and less than 200 damage of enmity to other player.

How polite of you to say so. As a matter of fact, I did run some calculation before I said anything. By my calculations I don't run with a -50 enmity setup and have yet to meet a single RNG who does. So theoretical benefits of an ability if I had a setup I don't and I never plan to have are quite irrelevant. I calculated assuming I had -0 enmity, which is not true as I do have some on my current gear. However the benefits of an ability can't be measured entirely in the realm of theory or with stipulated contigencies.

However I would also like to point out that you need to find out how much damage I do before you say anything as well. From what you are saying, I can do up to 800 damage a shot without pulling any enmity above and beyond the tank. However sometimes my shots go over 800, depending on what I am fighting. My barrage does over five times that, where I will generate massive enmity beyond what I am doing per normal shot. My weapon skills do over three times as much as well. If it were a % based ability, it wouldn't limit us to only making effective use of it with normal shots. As it stands it is rather close to being worthless for any damage spikes we produce.

Feliciaa, I understand what you are saying and you do have a good point. However I am not with an end game shell and don't ever plan to do the 'newest' content, unless it can be done with less than a whole party. Really though that has never been the area where hate is that big of an issue regardless. RNG has been one of the top DD end game since Sky was new, and it has never been a huge threat to tanking HNM. Now it has been a while since I've done it, and maybe with the new content the dynamic has changed, but if it is anything like the old days with tanks stacking CE and VE then RNG should still have little to fear in that realm. I just was hoping for something that would give a blanket benefit to all RNG regardless of what they do to help lower or prevent enmity accumulation. Perhaps the fault is my own for getting my hopes up so much about this ability, but it just seemed to have fallen short of my expectations.

[VZX]

How polite of you to say so. As a matter of fact, I did run some calculation before I said anything. By my calculations I don't run with a -50 enmity setup and have yet to meet a single RNG who does. So theoretical benefits of an ability if I had a setup I don't and I never plan to have are quite irrelevant. I calculated assuming I had -0 enmity, which is not true as I do have some on my current gear. However the benefits of an ability can't be measured entirely in the realm of theory or with stipulated contigencies.

OK, -50 might be impractical, but -40 is quite feasible.
Sylvan Caban +2 = -9
Sylvan Bottilons +2 = -7
Metanoia Ring= -5
Novia Earring = -7
Crudelis belt, Sylvan scarf, and Sylvan Chlamys = 3*-3 = -9 or -10 if you use Buccaneer's Belt
Sylvan Earring = -2
And there's definitely more stuff you can push more to reach enmity-50

And still, even with -40 enmity, you still have 666 damage per shot to do before you'll get into trouble.


However I would also like to point out that you need to find out how much damage I do before you say anything as well. From what you are saying, I can do up to 800 damage a shot without pulling any enmity above and beyond the tank. However sometimes my shots go over 800, depending on what I am fighting. My barrage does over five times that, where I will generate massive enmity beyond what I am doing per normal shot. My weapon skills do over three times as much as well. If it were a % based ability, it wouldn't limit us to only making effective use of it with normal shots. As it stands it is rather close to being worthless for any damage spikes we produce.

Like the community rep saying, this JA, by any means, isn't to be the ultimate method for us to hide behind tank's enmity.
Your high damage barrage and WS can be reduced via other means (like stealth shot, -enmity gear during WS, etc), while your normal ranged attack enmity can be reduced much by Decoy Shot and Camouflage.

And also : To whatever mob you can do 800 damage a shot, either their attack will be easy enough for you to handle or they probably gonna die really quick so that the concept of "hiding behind tank's enmity" is not a big deal.

Hence, I don't think the situation you described is realistic or serious enough to deem decoy shot as "not good".

[Lumiya]

As I said to Feliciaa, I don't do any of the newer content and I don't have an end game shell anymore. Mostly all I do is Abyssea, and in Abyssea that sort of damage is easy to do. I understand the arguements, and in some ways I do see the benefits of Decoy Shot. However it still seems to be less than I was hoping for. However it appears I am just one person in a larger community who has issues with it, so /shrugs. If majority of RNG are happy, then at least this JA wasn't a total bust.

[Alderin]

800 DMG per shot? I would like to see your tp set... and what arrows your using.

Assuming this is Abyssea, and these 800 per shot are crit hits - enmity reduction isn't required as it's stupidly easy for tanks to hold hate.

[Lumiya]

800 DMG per shot? I would like to see your tp set... and what arrows your using.

Assuming this is Abyssea, and these 800 per shot are crit hits - enmity reduction isn't required as it's stupidly easy for tanks to hold hate.

This is Abyssea I'm talking about, and it isn't stupidly easy for tanks to hold hate there due to the hate cap.

[xbobx]

I am thinking the line it which you line up with your tank stays narrow, what it really should do is fan out the farther you are away.

I used decoy shot and had no issues , next time I pulled hate right away and that was because I was barely off a bit from tank. With thf you are right behind the guy, it is hard to be that off, my guess is SE didn't think this through again and increase the line the farther you go out.

[Lumiya]

The only problem with this idea would be when you have two players standing next to eachother in front of you. If it wasn't a direct line with the enemy, it might affect the wrong player.

[xbobx]

but that could be good for the odd chuckle

[Alderin]

Ok so in short - I do 100 damage on a mob with decoy shot up.

20 of that damage is seen by the mob as coming from the person in front of me and 80 of it from me?


This is Abyssea I'm talking about, and it isn't stupidly easy for tanks to hold hate there due to the hate cap.

Oic. Abyssea explains it. A good tank can hold hate off Ukon war's in abyssea. I see your point as mute?

Enmity issues only really come up in areas without super-powers. If they do - then you need to have a word with your rubbish tanks. Yes hate cap etc etc - but there is also something called Dual-wield. And that is what keeps the mob's head turned.

[VZX]

Nope, it's static enmity reduction. Just like community rep saying.
So for example if the static enmity reduction is really 200 damage; Then if you're wearing 0 enmity gear:
1. If you do below 200 damage, you gain no enmity, and the targeted player will generate enmity based on whatever ranged damage you scored
2. If you do above 200 damage, then you gain (your ranged damage-200) worth of enmity, while the targeted PC generate 200 damage worth of enmity.

[Fyreus]

Hate to necro but i missed something here... in abyssea i do 350ish a shot with scorpions vs most mobs and outside i do similar so... are they telling me that i need to gimp my damage to stay safe? Again?

[noodles355]

Well concidering outside you're only doing 350 a shot on weak shit that doesn't matter, and hard fights where hate is a problem like high tier voidwatch you wont be hitting that much anyway, it's a bit of a non-issue. LolAbyssea.

[Fyreus]

I do crit at a decent rate and WS often too which makes it an issue (especially with emperyean users) unless decoy shot doesn't really work on WS. Heck, anyone with an X hit build will eventually do over 200dmg with WS and will WS often which brings me back to my question. Btw i don't really have a reason to do voidwatch so i can't really ask about that stuff.

[Feliciaa]

Decoy shot is designed for hard content where pulling hate matters and DD don't hit for insane amounts. In abyssea it does not matter if you have it or not since mp is unlimited, HP is crazy high and every real DD can easily average 3-5k WSs.

[noodles355]

Decoy shot is designed for hard content where pulling hate matters and DD don't hit for insane amounts. In abyssea it does not matter if you have it or not since mp is unlimited, HP is crazy high and every real DD can easily average 3-5k WSs.This sums it up pretty well.