Base Empyrean Weapons Need Weaponskills

[Cybernetic_Empire]

Not sure how to preface this so let's just dive in.

Once you are finished with whatever VNM magian trials you need you are presented with a choice to either work towards an Empyrean weapon or a lesser weapon (NQ) that still allows you to use one of the new weapon skills. There seems to be a disparity between the difficulty of obtaining the new weapon skills on Empyrean weapons versus their NQ cousins. For this reason I believe that weapon skills (such as Victory Smite) should come on the base (level 80) version of the Empyrean weapons. I'll use the H2H magian trials as an example as that's what I'm familiar with.

In order to acquire Victory Smite on the Empyrean magian trial path you are required to gather 50 items from Chloris, who drops 1-2 items per fight. At the very least, you need to kill this NM 25 times (and she ain't that generous). Chloris requires four key items which are acquired from three poppable NM's and one timed spawn NM. It takes seven items to pop these NMs and four of those items come from four other poppable NMs. So in reality you're looking at gathering eleven items, fighting 8 popped NMs, fighting one spawned NM, and getting red !! on 4 NMs PER Chloris.

You also need to acquire 50 items from Ulhudashi, who drops 1-2 items per fight. Same as above you will have to fight this NM at least 25 times. In order to pop this NM you need two key items. One is gathered from a popable NM which only requires one item to pop and the other is from a timed spawn NM.

Now on to the NQ path which in this case would be Revenant Fists. Base Revenant Fists require 30 Coins of Advancement from the Walk of Echos battlefield. This is a battlefield anyone can enter and participate in once per game day for 30 (or was it 45?) minutes. Revenant Fists +1 gain access to Victory Smite and require 20 Kindred's Crests, which is an incredibly common drop in most higher level zones (I myself have 4 stacks of 99).

So to summarize for the tldnr crowd.

Total MINIMUM Work for Victory Smite On Verethragna Path:

Chloris: 25 times
Pop Items: 275
Popped NMs: 175
Timed NMs: 25

Ulhudashi: 25 times
Pop Items: 25
Popped NMs: 25
Timed NMs: 25

Total:
Pop Items: 300
Popped NMs: 275
Timed NMs: 50

Total Work for Victory Smite on Revenant Fists Path:

Coins of Advancement: 30
Kindreds Crest: 20

Does that NOT seem crazy to anyone else? My suggestion is this:

Level 80 Empyrean Weapons: Gain access to Empyrean weapon skills (such as Victory Smite)

Level 85 Empyrean Weapons: Gain access to Aftermath

Level 90 Empyrean Weapons: Increased stats, lowered delay, etc

[Arcon]

If you put it in relation, I don't think it's much at all, quite the opposite. For the rewards they offer, those weapons are very easy to obtain. You are after all getting weapons and weapon skills in return, that put relics to shame. And they're already a lot easier and faster to obtain. Making them easier and faster still seems a bit unfair to me.

[Cybernetic_Empire]

In relation to what? Relics? We're not discussing Relics vs Empyrean in this thread. Also, nowhere in this thread did I mention lessening the requirements for Empyrean weapons. I'm pointing out the disparity of effort required to get the new weapon skills on Empyrean weapons versus the NQ path. From what I laid out above it's clear that the NQ path is basically handed the weapon skill while the Empyrean holder goes through magnitudes more work to get the weapon skill. That makes no sense whatsoever and to compensate for it I suggest splitting the weapon skill and aftermath buffs into separate trials on Empyrean weapons. If anything they should put Victory Smite on the +2 version of revenant fists.

[Alhanelem]

The 2 trials are really not that bad. It's ifne the way it is, it's supposed to be a challenge.

(What really needs to be done is balance the difficulty of the trials. You pointed out the absolute worst empyrean weapon trial. Most aren't as bad as that one.)

[Kyrial]

I do think that the WS should be available (without aftermath) on the level 80 versions. That seems perfectly fair to me. Like he said, he's not saying anything about lessening the challenge of the trials themselves.

[Alhanelem]

Then all the relic weapon skills should be avialable on the first upgrade.

The WoE weapons are intended as an easier alternative (and an alternative for those without the abyssea addons) to the empyreans. It's not valid to compare the trials.

[Arcon]

It's not necessarily about Empyrean vs Relics, I was just pointing out, that by beating relics, they also beat pretty much every other weapon in the game. Meaning, they're the best weapons available. And a large part of that is not because of the stats on the weapon or even the Aftermath effect, but because of the WS. I also know that doesn't hold true for all empyrean WSs, but definitely for some of them. Having Ukko's Fury, Victory Smite or Blade: Hi available after a few days of soloable trials? Why even bother having other weapons then? Ok, maybe at Lv80 there's other weapons that would be them marginally, at least some of them, but the point is the same: something so exceptionally good as empyrean WSs should be earned, and I don't know if a few easy trials qualify for that.

Maybe people got spoiled by Abyssea and just expect everything to be as easy as getting +2 items. And imo, it still is, getting empyrean weapons, while tedious, is not actually hard even now, which is another reason why I think it shouldn't be lowered.

Ultimately this is a matter of opinion, I simply believe you should put hard work into getting good equipment.

[Alhanelem]

It's not necessarily about Empyrean vs Relics, I was just pointing out, that by beating relics, they also beat pretty much every other weapon in the game.All the more reason they shouldn't grant the weaponskill until closer to completion. It's not like you actually need to use the weapon at any point before it's "finished" for the trials, so there is no reason that they need to have a specfici minimum quality standard at the first upgrade.

[Kwate]

Not sure how to preface this so let's just dive in.

Once you are finished with whatever VNM magian trials you need you are presented with a choice to either work towards an Empyrean weapon or a lesser weapon (NQ) that still allows you to use one of the new weapon skills. There seems to be a disparity between the difficulty of obtaining the new weapon skills on Empyrean weapons versus their NQ cousins. For this reason I believe that weapon skills (such as Victory Smite) should come on the base (level 80) version of the Empyrean weapons. I'll use the H2H magian trials as an example as that's what I'm familiar with.

In order to acquire Victory Smite on the Empyrean magian trial path you are required to gather 50 items from Chloris, who drops 1-2 items per fight. At the very least, you need to kill this NM 25 times (and she ain't that generous). Chloris requires four key items which are acquired from three poppable NM's and one timed spawn NM. It takes seven items to pop these NMs and four of those items come from four other poppable NMs. So in reality you're looking at gathering eleven items, fighting 8 popped NMs, fighting one spawned NM, and getting red !! on 4 NMs PER Chloris.

You also need to acquire 50 items from Ulhudashi, who drops 1-2 items per fight. Same as above you will have to fight this NM at least 25 times. In order to pop this NM you need two key items. One is gathered from a popable NM which only requires one item to pop and the other is from a timed spawn NM.

Now on to the NQ path which in this case would be Revenant Fists. Base Revenant Fists require 30 Coins of Advancement from the Walk of Echos battlefield. This is a battlefield anyone can enter and participate in once per game day for 30 (or was it 45?) minutes. Revenant Fists +1 gain access to Victory Smite and require 20 Kindred's Crests, which is an incredibly common drop in most higher level zones (I myself have 4 stacks of 99).

So to summarize for the tldnr crowd.

Total MINIMUM Work for Victory Smite On Verethragna Path:

Chloris: 25 times
Pop Items: 275
Popped NMs: 175
Timed NMs: 25

Ulhudashi: 25 times
Pop Items: 25
Popped NMs: 25
Timed NMs: 25

Total:
Pop Items: 300
Popped NMs: 275
Timed NMs: 50

Total Work for Victory Smite on Revenant Fists Path:

Coins of Advancement: 30
Kindreds Crest: 20

Does that NOT seem crazy to anyone else? My suggestion is this:

Level 80 Empyrean Weapons: Gain access to Empyrean weapon skills (such as Victory Smite)

Level 85 Empyrean Weapons: Gain access to Aftermath

Level 90 Empyrean Weapons: Increased stats, lowered delay, etc

Good idea actually, however I like the setup as it is, since this IS the pinnacle of all weapon lines.

[Michaeluk]

So you want these easy to make weapons even more powerfull at a even lower level intresting.

[Cybernetic_Empire]

Why is the main point of my post continually ignored? I GET it, Relics are hard to get and Empyrean weapons "are easy". Not really what this thread is about.


It's not necessarily about Empyrean vs Relics, I was just pointing out, that by beating relics, they also beat pretty much every other weapon in the game. Meaning, they're the best weapons available. And a large part of that is not because of the stats on the weapon or even the Aftermath effect, but because of the WS. I also know that doesn't hold true for all empyrean WSs, but definitely for some of them. Having Ukko's Fury, Victory Smite or Blade: Hi available after a few days of soloable trials? Why even bother having other weapons then? Ok, maybe at Lv80 there's other weapons that would be them marginally, at least some of them, but the point is the same: something so exceptionally good as empyrean WSs should be earned, and I don't know if a few easy trials qualify for that.


You essentially prove the point I'm trying to make about the weapon skill. Also, I've helped a LS mate get Empyrean Katana with Blade: Hi and have farmed up 23 sets of pop items for Chloris for my Empyrean H2H trial. That's a week straight of continually being in Tahrongi Canyon and that's not including getting people together to camp Chukwa, juggling these sets of items between mules dboxes, converting items to key items, and actually fighting Chloris. Saying you can get these sets completed and NM fought with a few days of soloable trials is extremely disingenuous as if you've done any solo work on them you'd know soloing it all is impossible. I'm EARNING the weapon and weapon skill, the person that takes the NQ route is NOT.



The WoE weapons are intended as an easier alternative (and an alternative for those without the abyssea addons) to the empyreans. It's not valid to compare the trials.

This is a perfect example of the colossal *whoosh* that is going on in this thread. So the argument is that because Empyrean weapons are so powerful and easy to get that we shouldn't possibly think that the base weapon should be imbued with the new weapon skill. YET, the statement above states that the NQ path should get the new weapon skill (which is arguably one of the major overpowering factors of both HQ and NQ) because it's meant to be easy? Not sure how anyone can reconcile this logical contradiction. It is completely and utterly valid to compare the two trials when you consider the ratio of work done to payoff.

[Cream_Soda]

It shouldn't make a difference, really. Especially w/ your example.

Chloris took me two and a half weeks w/ mnk + whm.

Ulhua has af3+2. Farm key items w/ me + whm, shout for ppl for fight who want af3+2 (and who may have pop items of their own).

fangs took me 2 and a half days.

[chibowibo]

I'm EARNING the weapon and weapon skill, the person that takes the NQ route is NOT.

Just wow you ever did WOE? there ton´s of ppl usual that will lot also so you have to win lots and then you say they not earn the weaponskill. I realy wonder about what is all this.

[Naturebeckles]

I think before SE adds anymore weapon skills at all for any reason they should make them less laughable. The only new WS one I've actually SEEN people use is the war aoe WS and that's mainly for giggles or in abyssea killing frogs in la thiene in mass quantities.

[Rambus]

I can see where the OP is coming from; I talked about this subject with a LS mate before. The first stage, for the most part the first 50 items is harder work then the rest of path of the weaponskill alt path.


Level 80 Empyrean Weapons: Gain access to Empyrean weapon skills (such as Victory Smite)

I do not see a reason to counter this argument, I do think the level 80 versions should have the ws.

If you disagree with getting access to the Empyrean ws sooner on the real Empyrean path, then the Empyrean ws only path needs the difficulty/time spent to be raised. Could make other changes like have that weapons D be weaker and such for the empyrean ws only path. The weapon skill only path vs the Empyrean path is not balanced with time/ effort. A lot of WS only weapons puts most relics to shame too, that path is way too easy for the reward.

[Cybernetic_Empire]

I can see where the OP is coming from; I talked about this subject with a LS mate before. The first stage, for the most part the first 50 items is harder work then the rest of path of the weaponskill alt path.



I do not see a reason to counter this argument, I do think the level 80 versions should have the ws.

If you disagree with getting access to the Empyrean ws sooner on the real Empyrean path, then the Empyrean ws only path needs the difficulty/time spent to be raised. Could make other changes like have that weapons D be weaker and such for the empyrean ws only path. The weapon skill only path vs the Empyrean path is not balanced with time/ effort. A lot of WS only weapons puts most relics to shame too, that path is way too easy for the reward.

My god, thank you you wonderful person you!


Just wow you ever did WOE? there ton´s of ppl usual that will lot also so you have to win lots and then you say they not earn the weaponskill. I realy wonder about what is all this.

WOE is abandoned on my server...

[Zumi]

You get aftermath + higher damage on Empyrean, so thus it requires more work. Walk of Echos paths are meant to be the easier path but not as powerful.

[Cybernetic_Empire]

You get aftermath + higher damage on Empyrean, so thus it requires more work. Walk of Echos paths are meant to be the easier path but not as powerful.

Did you read the OP, did you read my suggestion of splitting the WS and Aftermath into two trials? In the case of H2H trials Revenant Fists +2 beat Relic weapons and are second only to Verethragna (inside abyssea). That doesn't sit well with me. For the amount of work Revenant Fists are overpowered. I doubt SE is going to take away the power of the Revenant Fists +2 so they should make an adjustment to the Empyrean path to make it right. I'm also of the opinion that Relics should be the top dog because they're more work than anything else. I'm suggesting ways for SE to "make it right" while everyone else seems to want to keep things as they are because that's the way they are and that's a horrible argument.

[Zumi]

Did you read the OP, did you read my suggestion of splitting the WS and Aftermath into two trials? In the case of H2H trials Revenant Fists +2 beat Relic weapons and are second only to Verethragna (inside abyssea). That doesn't sit well with me. For the amount of work Revenant Fists are overpowered. I doubt SE is going to take away the power of the Revenant Fists +2 so they should make an adjustment to the Empyrean path to make it right. I'm also of the opinion that Relics should be the top dog because they're more work than anything else. I'm suggesting ways for SE to "make it right" while everyone else seems to want to keep things as they are because that's the way they are and that's a horrible argument.

If you are doing an Empyrean weapon it takes like maybe 1 week or less to do part 2, the point is moot since you will be there pretty quickly anyway.

[Cream_Soda]

The next lv increase should take us out of abyssea. Rev fists+2 are no longer superior to spharai once you take them out of abyssea.

Also, really, how long do you plan on having the lv 80 version of vereth? If you've done the work for Chloris, it's ALL downhill from there.

Both Ulhuadshi and Dragua both take less than half the work as put into Chloris.

I don't see the incentive to even worry about lv 80 versions of emps because nobody should have them very long.


I'm also of the opinion that Relics should be the top dog because they're more work than anything else.

Mythics are a lot more work than relics, lol.

[Alhanelem]

People do WoE, at least on shiva. It's pretty easy to get the WoE weapons. If you don't see a group doing it, you can just solo crabs or antlions, which is slow going but easy enough.

[Cream_Soda]

People do WoE, at least on shiva. It's pretty easy to get the WoE weapons. If you don't see a group doing it, you can just solo crabs or antlions, which is slow going but easy enough.
Ewww lol would take less time to lv an alt and do the real deal w/e job + whm than it would take to get 30 coins solo

[Alhanelem]

I camped the zone all day for a little over a week. When no one was around, I soloed. Eventually a group came along which I later ended up joining the LS of, and finished it up quickly. :D

[Cream_Soda]

From someone who did both, emp actually took me less time lol but 20/30 of my coins were gotten before the increase in drop rate update.

[Alhanelem]

why did you choose the name "Cream_Soda" for this forum? :p

[Greatguardian]

I am a Verethragna owner so I can definitely understand where you're trying to come from.

However, farming Empyreans is not anywhere near as difficult as you're making it out to be. It requires a solid group that meets often enough and for long enough to get things accomplished. But it is not any more time consuming than WoE weapons in the long run for a good group. At least Chloris will always drop Chloris buds. WoE may drop any number of coins you don't want or need, and in WoE some random guy may pop into your Flux uninvited and outlot you on every coinpurse.

I would rather farm Chloris 33~ times, give or take, than have to deal with that. Adding to the fact that the Scars of Abyssea portion of Empyreans is the easiest of every single trial on the path and you don't really see much advantage to buffing level 80 weapons. It takes maybe 8-12 hours of work in Abyssea for the average group to take a level 80 weapon to 85. If someone ends up stuck with a level 80 weapon for more than a few days, they were probably better off doing the WoE path in the first place. And there's nothing wrong with that. WoE weapons, in almost all cases, are the second best weapons for their jobs. They can't touch a real Empyrean, but they're strong weapons with a strong weaponskill that less hardcore players can complete on their own time and their own schedule. I love the concept.

Edit: Of course CS beats me to it :(

[Svens]

Most ultimate weapons/weaponskills are initially locked and have one final task before truly unlocking them (stage4 relic, locked mythic, emp, woe, trial weapon, vigil weapon, and maybe others). Don't understand why emps/woe should stand out from the pattern.

Might as well ask for stage 4 relics to use ws anywhere (missing the x3-dmg and +stat), mythics to have all the perks sans aftermath before fighting Balrahn, and getting the ws from weapons simply from attaining the required skill or base weapon in Nyzul.

[Cream_Soda]

why did you choose the name "Cream_Soda" for this forum? :p
It stems from Killingifrit forums. I got banned once upon a time. Then I'd just make new accounts, which would usually last a week before they'd recognize who I was.

Must have gone through 10-15 accounts, so I was just picking random names. One time I was drinking a can of cream soda, when I was making the account, so I just went with "Cream Soda". And at this time, the mods let me be since I wasn't on any bad behavior or anything. So pretty much most forum names I've made since have all just been Cream Soda. It's also my name over on BG.

[Naturebeckles]

It stems from Killingifrit forums. I got banned once upon a time. Then I'd just make new accounts, which would usually last a week before they'd recognize who I was.

Must have gone through 10-15 accounts, so I was just picking random names. One time I was drinking a can of cream soda, when I was making the account, so I just went with "Cream Soda". And at this time, the mods let me be since I wasn't on any bad behavior or anything. So pretty much most forum names I've made since have all just been Cream Soda. It's also my name over on BG.

What I want to know is, why the hell were you bothering KillingIfrit so much?

[Cream_Soda]

What I want to know is, why the hell were you bothering KillingIfrit so much?
Idk it was like 2005-2006 when ppl actually used to post there.

[Arcon]

I think before SE adds anymore weapon skills at all for any reason they should make them less laughable. The only new WS one I've actually SEEN people use is the war aoe WS and that's mainly for giggles or in abyssea killing frogs in la thiene in mass quantities.

This wasn't meant to add any new weapon skills, and it's about the empyrean WSs (which are very heavily used), not the ones you gain from skill. And even those are used quite often ><

Fell Cleave, Cataclysm and Aeolian Edge all find uses in EXP/TE/KI builds (especially the latter two because of their magical damage), and for the same reason people sometimes use Sanguine Blade, Flash Nova, or w/e other new elemental WSs there are, even if single target. Fell Cleave also happens to be amazing outside of Abyssea for some situations, I've two shot the Moblins for the CoP-fight with it (one shot if you count Sekkanoki WSs as one) and have used it often to get rid of large quantities of mobs. Try a timed Fell Cleave with three Warriors in Dynamis, you'll know what I'm talking about.

[Naturebeckles]

This wasn't meant to add any new weapon skills, and it's about the empyrean WSs (which are very heavily used), not the ones you gain from skill. And even those are used quite often ><

Fell Cleave, Cataclysm and Aeolian Edge all find uses in EXP/TE/KI builds (especially the latter two because of their magical damage), and for the same reason people sometimes use Sanguine Blade, Flash Nova, or w/e other new elemental WSs there are, even if single target. Fell Cleave also happens to be amazing outside of Abyssea for some situations, I've two shot the Moblins for the CoP-fight with it (one shot if you count Sekkanoki WSs as one) and have used it often to get rid of large quantities of mobs. Try a timed Fell Cleave with three Warriors in Dynamis, you'll know what I'm talking about.

Oh, I'm sure Fell Cleave in Dynamis is quite awesome from several wars. I got to do a frog abyssea party once as my war and I've got to tell you that Fell Cleaving groups of frogs was a LOT of fun. ;) Aeolian Edge bothers me because of the modifiers SE gave it. There's no way it's actually useful for a thf and there's no way I'm devoting energy to getting gear JUST for that weapon skill. It's..... retarded.

[SNK]

Base Weapons don't need Weapon Skills. They're fine the way they are and truthfully the trials are way easier then it is to work on say a Mythic Weapon.

[hiko]

didn't read everything but there is a very simple reason (and logic) for not having WS on base empy: base empy are LVL80, WS are lvl85 WS.
and you dont NEED to kill a single NM to pop visions NM you can GC farm all KIs

thus i aggre that the 2nd WoE trial is way too easy (anybody that made WoE 80weapon could upgrade em the day of scars realease)

[Seha]

Base Empyrean Weapons Need WeaponskillsNo, they don't.