Gun Ninjas!?

[Yawaru]

Obviously not as popular as bow SAMs, which aren't terribly popular anyway, but I do think it's worth mentioning. Now it seems to me they gave Guns to NIN for the same reason they gave bows to SAM, more of a historical nod than an actual gameplay option. Now I know there are a lot of people that say "If it's not better than current WS/build then there's no point in adding it." I disagree. I wouldn't use it for tanking, but for having fun, which is what a game is meant to be, I might play around with it.

For this to be viable though, there would need to be a few changes.
- NIN would need to be on more guns (matchlock rifles!)
- NIN needs more ammo choices
- NIN should get some native marksmanship WS (Namely Slug Shot, Detonator and Numbing Shot plus some low level WSs)
- Maybe have Sange apply to guns too
- Maybe up Marksmanship skill to a B or so

Again, I know it wouldn't improve NIN's current abilities but it would make it more versatile and give another play option for fun.

[Mirage]

Why not improve throwing first instead? You know, the ranged skill you've got A-rank in.

[Nakts]

aye maybe add some throwing ws's?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Back in the 30's I would do more dmg nin with a gun then the rngs.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Throwing for nin needs more incentive than just sange.

[OgreBattle]

I had a suggestion in the 'feedback' section of the forum, but I think it'd apply here


Add in a stance that enhances Ninja ranged attacks.

Level 10 stance "Kasumi":
Wield only one katana, leaving your other hand free for quick throwing and fast drawing. Delay reduction can be about equal to what you get from Dual Wield.
The stance can also give +10 ranged accuracy and a bonus to Agility over levels (like how Hasso boosts samurai's accuracy and strength)

Level 20 ability: Shuriken Jutsu
activated ability only usable when in 1h stance: your next katana weapon skill will be delivered with a ranged attack.

Level 30 job trait: Kage Shuriken
X% chance on a missed throwing attack that the ninja throws immediately again with increased accuracy (does not consume ammo. Basically Zanshin for throwing). The imagery is that the missed attack is actually a shadow bluff for the following shot.

Level 50 ability: Imbue
activate- the next offensive ninjutsu you use is cast and 'stored' into your next ranged attack, which has greatly enhanced magic accuracy. Any magic accuracy boost you have is applied as a ranged accuracy boost to the shot (and any ranged acc bonus applies as a magic acc boost for the spell effect). If an elemental ninjutsu is used the weapon does the corresponding elemental damage.


Dual wielding vs single wielding would also give gun ninjas and traditional melee ninjas a visual difference.

[Mirage]

Would you let these traits and abilities work when subbing ninja? I could see some of them being useful for corsair and ranger.

[OgreBattle]

They're all throwing related bonuses though. I still figure Ranger would be the gunmaster class.

[Psxpert2011]

I had a suggestion in the 'feedback' section of the forum, but I think it'd apply here


Add in a stance that enhances Ninja ranged attacks.

Level 10 stance "Kasumi":
Wield only one katana, leaving your other hand free for quick throwing and fast drawing. Delay reduction can be about equal to what you get from Dual Wield.
The stance can also give +10 ranged accuracy and a bonus to Agility over levels (like how Hasso boosts samurai's accuracy and strength)

Level 20 ability: Shuriken Jutsu
activated ability only usable when in 1h stance: your next katana weapon skill will be delivered with a ranged attack.

Level 30 job trait: Kage Shuriken
X% chance on a missed throwing attack that the ninja throws immediately again with increased accuracy (does not consume ammo. Basically Zanshin for throwing). The imagery is that the missed attack is actually a shadow bluff for the following shot.

Level 50 ability: Imbue
activate- the next offensive ninjutsu you use is cast and 'stored' into your next ranged attack, which has greatly enhanced magic accuracy. Any magic accuracy boost you have is applied as a ranged accuracy boost to the shot (and any ranged acc bonus applies as a magic acc boost for the spell effect). If an elemental ninjutsu is used the weapon does the corresponding elemental damage.


Dual wielding vs single wielding would also give gun ninjas and traditional melee ninjas a visual difference.

Good ideas that need be used by master shinobi and not anyone subing the job by todays standard. Level 50 is the borderline for subjob and any job without a use for throwing or ninjutsu doesn't need it. Also, at that low portion of the job, ppl are still learning the ninja way and don't really need all that ability. Maybe some throwing WS and the lv.20 Shuriken Jutsu but nothing else (I would prefer it to be lv.30).

Work on these creative ideas some more, I support it! ^^

[wish12oz]

There is no way to fix ranged attacks without making haste apply to ranged attacks, which SE said they cannot do, just like they said they cannot add throwing WS's. Gun is worse then throwing, throwing is worse then just attacking with your katanas. If you're really bored I posted the math repeatedly in this forum for why throwing is so bad. Go search for it. Otherwise, just stop the insanity.

[MojoJojo]

Maybe lvl Corsair?

[Bulrogg]

I welcome any changes SE wants to throw( :D ) at NIN. It's got to be my favorite job in the game since 2004 and I don't get all butt hurt and jump to the next bandwagon job when SE changes something.

I was really interested with SE's suggested adjustment to Sange merits and can't wait to see what else they come up with.

[wish12oz]

I was really interested with SE's suggested adjustment to Sange merits and can't wait to see what else they come up with.

Thats nice and all, but it still won't be worth the gil/inventory to merit sange.

[Bulrogg]

Thats nice and all, but it still won't be worth the gil/inventory to merit sange.

Nice to know that you do not intend on meriting it, but you do not speak for the entire community. Still looking forward to whatever changes SE plans to bring to Ninja.

[wish12oz]

Nice to know that you do not intend on meriting it, but you do not speak for the entire community.

I only speak for the people who are smart enough to figure out carrying around another 13+ inventory slots of gear just so you can effectively use sange, while lowering your overall DPS, is dumb.

[Bulrogg]

My apologies if you are having inventory issues. No one said Gun Ninjas would out DMG other jobs, so no need to put words into other peoples mouth. You only speak for yourself, thinking otherwise would be dumb and dumb spelled backwards is mudd.


Nonetheless I am still looking forward to see what adjustments SE brings to ninja.

[wish12oz]

My apologies if you are having inventory issues. No one said Gun Ninjas would out DMG other jobs, so no need to put words into other peoples mouth. You only speak for yourself, thinking otherwise would be dumb and dumb spelled backwards is mudd.

Any competent NIN has MDT PDT WS and TP sets. On top of this you have tools for spells, food, meds, and maybe proc weapons. If you're anywhere under 70/80 at all times, you're doing it wrong. Thinking I don't speak for the vast majority of good NINs who know what they're doing shows just how bad at NIN you are, just like your spelling. How do you get mudd by reversing dumb? It should be dmud or bmub.

[MojoJojo]

I understand your enjoyment in doing unconventional things with ninja. But, ninja really shines when they're swinging like madmen, tossing out huge weapon skills, and avoiding mobs attacks. Now, we CAN use clubs, swords, etc, but it's nowhere near efficient. Guns/throwing/nukes are something ninja CAN do.....but it's quite a hindrance to accomplishing goals.

I agree with Wish 100% that we have no business with ranged stuff, and in another thread nuking has been discussed. Not worth the effort to gear/merit either. I don't have the best mdt/pdt/eva gearsets just yet (still working on it) and yes, i'm pretty close to full inventory when i head out, so snagging ANOTHER gearset, just to deal less damage seems DUMB/BMUD/MUDD(?!?!) imho.

Sure you can do what you want, and we don't speak for the entire ninja community, but i'd be /facepalm'ing myself if i saw a ninja show up for an event/xp pt doing shite damage, wasting time and gil trying to be a Ranger.

As i said a few posts before, you want to shoot things? level the job that's meant to.

[Bulrogg]

Yes, I know exactly how inventory clogging being a good ninja is, I've been playing the job since 2005. That is why now-a-days I rarely do events as ninja where I am looking for drops because it leaves me with litte room to work with.

I'm not talking about doing events as a Gun Ninja or Shuriken Ninja, I'm talking about free play; so no you don't speak for everyone. That being said, I still look foward to what SE wants to do with the job regarding ranged abilities attacks.

And mudd = dumb is an old Looney Tunes reference.
Tha-th-th-tha-tha-thaaaaaat's all folks! :8)

[wish12oz]

Yes, I know exactly how inventory clogging being a good ninja is, I've been playing the job since 2005.

"I've been doing it since 2005" seems to be your only reasoning behind why you're good at NIN. I've been playing NIN since 2004, does that make my points more valid then yours? In your world I bet it does. Even in this aspect you think so highly of yourself for.... I'm winning.

EDIT: I even leveled it as a SJ before before PS2 release! So I technically started it in 2003.

[Bulrogg]

Oh wow, that's such an achivement. What do you want now; a bean?

I enjoy the game for what it is, a game. I don't need to list the LS I've been a part of or my different gear sets to have a virtual pissing contest. I'm not trying to change your point of view or seek your approval.

It's a game, I have fun. So should everyone else. And I believe there really is no wrong way to have fun.

That being said... I still welcome whatever SE has in store for the role of NINJA.

[MojoJojo]

Well, playing around by yourself is perfectly fine, if, as stated before, doing garbage damage with weaker weapons/ja/spells is your idea of fun. Bringing that mentality along to a group/ls isn't perfectly fine. Someone doing it wrong effects other peoples fun.

Yes, yes, i know i don't speak for the entire community. I'm sure you're going to fire that quote off again to totally shut me down. Kudos. I really shouldn't have to speak for the community on this matter. Ninja's who know what they're doing are all shaking their heads right now.

The argument is that SE shouldn't bother wasting it's time on stupid things when they could actually do something for the job that might matter...make it better. Adding things to a portion of our job that we pretty much suck at lacks logic. Doing something with Throwing would make more sense....minimal sense though, but it would take far too much work/effort to make it worthwhile. Considering SE has pretty much pissed all over Shurikens kinda shows where that's gonna go though.

[wish12oz]

I'd say that too if I was horrible.

LOOK OUT NINJA FORUMS! Next thing you know you're gonna see the proverbial "I have a real life!"

[Bulrogg]

Exactly. Like I said before when not focused on end game events it shouldn't matter how you spend your dime. If you have fun going out NIN/RNG and firing off gil, by all means have fun.

SE can bring whatever adjustments they want to the job and it wont reduce the amount of enjoyment I have with it, but I can not speak for the entire crowd.

I liked the idea they had for adjusting the Sange merit and commented on it. Apparently that upset some... Will SE move forward with it? Who knows. It wont result in me quiting the job if they don't. I'm just not limited to a way of thinking that "X is the only way to improve Y". Be it good or bad, an improvement is just that. No matter what it is, some will like it, some wont.


at any rate, I still welcome whatever SE has in store for the role of NINJA. "Dattebayo!" (just for you) ;)

[wish12oz]

an improvement is just that.

What about the sange update is an improvement? It's STILL an ability thats useless to waste merits on, and it's STILL useless to try and use it.



at any rate, I still welcome whatever SE has in store for the role of NINJA.

I bet you supported the dual wield nerf too, and welcomed it with open arms like every other horrible adjustment they've made to ninja. I bet you LIKE yonin and can full time innin and think you're awesome too. It's pretty amazing to me that you like when SE wastes development time and resources on useless crap, instead of helping NIN not be terrible outside of abyssea. I support any change that actually helps NIN not be horrible.

[Bulrogg]

That's the thing, I don't feel like SE is wasting their time regardless the task. Adjustments happen. If that's the worse thing that happens today then it's not such a bad day. I can still find enjoyment with the game and with the job. It will always be my favorite job to play regardless of how the developers continue to evolve Ninja.

[Saefinn]

I don't see why people get so frothy at the mouth when people have 'different' ideas and have thoughts independent of others surrounding jobs in the game. Naturally all are entitled to their own play style and their own point of view. I hate this notion that there's a 'right' way to play a job - it's so unoriginal and uncreative, I am somebody who likes to experiment, even when it means I'm laughed at. Now, I'm a new NIN, could go as far as calling me a 'bandwagon NIN', though I do enjoy it, so it's not as simple as doing it because it'll get me invites.

I think if we were to utilise throwing weapons or improve Sange then to my mind maybe throwing weapons themselves (and any other stats surrounding them) can be improved...it's not that much of a stretch of the imagination, even if SE can't give them WS's. Throwing weapons may currently be useless, but who says they HAVE to be? Throwing weapons may be crap now, but who says they can't be uncrappified? It's possible to give it some advantages instead of making the skill useless.

Okay, I might not be an experienced NIN nor may my opinion matter to some people, but I'm not one to shoot down people's views and then suggest that they're shit at their job because they want to take advantage of something most would consider 'crap' or 'useless'.

[wish12oz]

I think if we were to utilise throwing weapons or improve Sange then to my mind maybe throwing weapons themselves (and any other stats surrounding them) can be improved...it's not that much of a stretch of the imagination

It actually sorta is a stretch of the imagination, considering you lose 6-7 attacks worth of TP gain and damage for 1 throw, that makes it very, very unlikely it could ever be fixed. So say what you want, but until 1 throw does as much damage and gains as much TP as 6-7 attacks, it will never be worth using. What is so hard to understand about that to you people?

Now lets look at the sange changes, its what 5 hits now and doesn't take shadows? So to get those 5 hits youre gonna give up 1.5-2.5~ attack rounds, and for that you get to hit things with 5 shurikens. So really, as long as you can connect with all of them, and have decent damage shurikens to use, the damage should be the same. The problem with it comes into play in the fact that, it costs a ton of inventory room, and gil and merits to make sange worth using to "do the same damage." Inventory room because you need to carry around a bunch of gear with ranged acc/att to make it useful. Gil because you'll lose your NTE merits to merit sange, and because shurikens are very expensive. Now, if you want to be stupid, and waste all this gil and inventory space to do the same amount of damage you normally would just meleeing, go ahead and knock yourself out, but people with half a clue, will be laughing at you.

[Saefinn]

It actually sorta is a stretch of the imagination, considering you lose 6-7 attacks worth of TP gain and damage for 1 throw, that makes it very, very unlikely it could ever be fixed. So say what you want, but until 1 throw does as much damage and gains as much TP as 6-7 attacks, it will never be worth using. What is so hard to understand about that to you people?

Yes, that's current stats. That's not hard to understand at all. Read back at what I wrote, you'll see I addressed that issue by suggesting that with Sange improvements throwing weapons and any stats surrounding them could be improved. So current TP and damage is irrelevant, because it'd mean they'd have to be improved if SE wanted to have Ninjas using throwing weapons, like Bulrogg would no doubt like to see.

My stance on whether NIN SHOULD be able to use throwing weapons to their advantage is neither here nor there because whilst I suspect it'd be nice to not waste Ninja's skill in it and to have an extra part to the job some may enjoy there's also of course an issue of what takes priority and what'll make people happy, but also how SE deals with 'balance' and usually their approach to balance is to nerf. But if SE were a little more generous and I'm sure if done right, throwing weapons could be improve to a point where they become useful without hurting other aspects of the job (except maybe in merit choice, but at least for that it's a choice for a player's style rather than a nerf).

I'm sure I could just take a position of superiority and assume everybody who thinks differently is an idiot and can't play their job, but that'd just be nasty and would contribute nothing. I'm not going to merit Sange, I'm probably not even going to buy throwing weapons, I've already got a Chakram, so if I ever need to use a ranged weapon to pull, I can. However, I'd rather not shit on people's ideas or assume they're idiots because they play differently and would like to see aspects of the jobs they're interested in to be explored. And of course, you're more than welcome to play the job as you wish and I hope nobody would try to force you away from that, after all, you're here to enjoy the game. Yes, if SE nerfed any aspect of NIN that made people, such as yourself, enjoy NIN less then I would be disappointed, hence my comments about 'balance' above.

It's this frothing at the mouth culture surrounding some of this game's fanatics I find difficult to understand.

[wish12oz]

Yes, that's current stats. That's not hard to understand at all. Read back at what I wrote, you'll see I addressed that issue by suggesting that with Sange improvements throwing weapons and any stats surrounding them could be improved.

It's a pretty astronomical jump from what is there now, compared to what they would need to add to make throwing worth using. Exactly what part of anything SE has ever done with this game leads you believe SE will add a ranged weapon that will do as much damage and gain as much TP as 5+ attacks? I mean, I can see from the rest of your post you're pretty clueless on how game mechanics work, but I just want to understand why you are white knighting throwing so much. It's terrible and basically can't be fixed, I fail to see why you don't understand this.


everybody who thinks differently is an idiot and can't play their job

Math, it's awesome because there's a right answer, and wrong answer.


It's this frothing at the mouth culture surrounding some of this game's fanatics I find difficult to understand.

Apparently you never had to stand around and wait to do something while a bunch of horrible people took forever to get out of the way.

[MojoJojo]

Apparently you never had to stand around and wait to do something while a bunch of horrible people took forever to get out of the way.

Or, god forbid, you are trying to accomplish something WITH these folks. Now, i personally haven't had many dealings with friends who want to play ass-backwards, but i know it's out there. Alot.

The simple math backs up the frothing-at-the-mouth, and sure SE COULD make throwing (and guns, which was the original topic) comparative to just swinging katanas, but as Wish said they would have to totally break it just to appease a few folks, which is something they will never do. I really don't find it difficult to understand at all. Katana's cause more damage, and you recieve more tp per round to deal....more damage. The math is obvious and simple. What I do find difficult to understand is how people attach themselves to an impossible dream that will never be implemented properly and defend it to the death. I'm all for thinking outside the box, and coming up with new ways to play a job....that's how Nin-tanking started, but when the new way is junk....let it be.

My argument, as has been from the start, is SE should be focusing on something useful. I can't stress that enough. We only get a few merit categories, and having them wasted to add a buff or two for a USELESS ability is ridiculous. SE's skeleton crew dev team shouldn't be wasting any time on it, especially the effort it would take to make the useless stuff useful.

[Psxpert2011]

My apologies if you are having inventory issues. No one said Gun Ninjas would out DMG other jobs, so no need to put words into other peoples mouth. You only speak for yourself, thinking otherwise would be dumb and dumb spelled backwards is mudd.


Nonetheless I am still looking forward to see what adjustments SE brings to ninja.

One adjustment to Ninja is to give it more range ability, TP usage and/or dmg capabilities rather than the ability to out-tank Paladins. It's almost turning into a Rdm issue where there's not enough to do with the job,lol.

Ninjas have the potential for many things on the battlefield, it just needs control and to keep it simple. whatever Ninja gets (say hidden-guns) for range attacks and spike dmg, it would demand WS linked with it too. Maybe linking it with the amount of shadows the player has up with ninja as main (making the job even more desirable for everyone who has it already).

Many jobs have range ability now so it's shouldn't come short to say, "Please SE, include "throwing" WSs linked to the amount of ammo in the slot".

Hey, I'm a mnk! Can't mnk get something new?? maybe something related to "Dragon Ball Z", nothing too flashy XD

[MojoJojo]

Turning our job(s) into silly japanese cartoons isn't the best direction to take. If you want to play Naruto or DBZ, theres a few dozen games made specifically for that reason.

[Saefinn]

It's a pretty astronomical jump from what is there now, compared to what they would need to add to make throwing worth using. Exactly what part of anything SE has ever done with this game leads you believe SE will add a ranged weapon that will do as much damage and gain as much TP as 5+ attacks? I mean, I can see from the rest of your post you're pretty clueless on how game mechanics work, but I just want to understand why you are white knighting throwing so much. It's terrible and basically can't be fixed, I fail to see why you don't understand this.

Of course it CAN be fixed, it's only programming at the end of the day not real-world physics, the question is how much work would it take to fix? Unfortunately we don't have sight of FFXI's source code so we don't know how difficult it is for them to fix it. Yes, it's currently terrible, but if SE want it fixed then it's NOT an impossibility. It just means changing the code, it could be an easy fix or it could be an extremely difficult fix, again we can't see the source code. Are SE likely to do it and is it something that needs priority? I doubt it, but if there are people who want it, then I think they're welcome to voice it without being insulted.

For the record, I'm not white-knighting for throwing weapons - I've not even said that I support the idea...I am actually on the fence. I'm just sticking up for people's ideas, which you feel so necessary to insult and then assume the people who made the suggestions are idiots who can't play their jobs.


Math, it's awesome because there's a right answer, and wrong answer.

But everything doesn't boil down to maths. Getting the perfect set up does come down to maths, yes. However, FFXI is a game and people play it because it's meant to be 'fun' and sometimes I feel people forget that. What actually works isn't binary, read any number of testimonies on NM's and you'll see people have different set-ups and different methods based on how they play the game. Hence why I refrain from telling people how to play their jobs, instead I let them figure it out and decide what they enjoy best and what works best for them - when it comes to a party setting, yes, I'll expect them to be useful and may request they fill a certain role but even then how they fill that role is down to them, I'd hate to suddenly trample over their enjoyment. If you wish to go down the route of being an elite player, that's entirely up to you, but it doesn't make it 'right'.



Now, when it comes to game mechanics, yes, some things just don't work and aren't sensible and currently it's the case of throwing weapons. What's also awesome about maths is that equations can be changed when you want a different result - making a change to a mathematical equation in a piece of code isn't impossible.


Apparently you never had to stand around and wait to do something while a bunch of horrible people took forever to get out of the way.

Actually, I have. Paladins who think it's a good idea to take 50 mins to solo an NM and refuse invites that would make it quicker for them so your party can get the next spawn, parties who struggle and spend more time keeping themselves alive and slowly wearing down the NM and people who seem to take forever getting a proc, either because they keep doing it wrong or someone's forgot the proc weapon and has had to run back and get it. Being in those parties is even more annoying and often results in some dick calling somebody a 'noob' and throwing all sorts of insults. When it happens, it happens and you deal with it.

There's time wasters in the game and not all of them are created by players either, SE has introduced their fair share of time-wasters too.

It's a horrible annoyance, but not one that's relevant. If people used throwing weapons now, then yes it'd take forever to weaken an enemy and yes you would be waiting for a long time. If throwing weapons were useful at dealing damage enough to make them a viable option then surely this would not be a part of the issue.

Plus, even though it's an annoyance, I avoid being a dick to people and I'm patient about it, but also I don't go out of my way to shit on people's ideas - I'd much prefer to help them improve them or simply say I don't think it'll work or say that I don't support the idea. Insulting people contributes nothing, it just gets people's backs up.

[Jar]

<_< why all these odd ability suggestions give us a snapshot trait(for throwing) and low delay Stars that are cheep to make.. (also at wish12oz i use throwing offten to get tp for procs when drinks are down in VW)

oh also Quadruple shot can i have it.

[wish12oz]

<_< why all these odd ability suggestions give us a snapshot trait(for throwing) and low delay Stars that are cheep to make.. (also at wish12oz i use throwing offten to get tp for procs when drinks are down in VW)

oh also Quadruple shot can i have it.

You're totally right, all they need to do to fix throwing is make it worth 5+ melee attacks worth of damage and TP gain every time you throw a shuriken. So in VW if they do say 1000 damage each, that would be enough to cover it, abyssea they're gonna need to do 4k+ each.

Now that you see numbers associated with how much damage they would need to do, are you starting to see the ridiculousness of thinking SE is going to add shurikens that do this much damage?

You stand back and throw shurikens to build TP in VW when your fanatics is down, and this happens a lot. My only suggestion to you regarding this is- get a new group that isn't horrible. Most shout alliances I have been in for the last month do better then that, and if you're doing worse then shout alliances, you should really try harder.

[vixin]

I like the idea of adding job abilities that enchance shuriken dmg or allowing use to use ninjutsu imbuned in our throws, maybe even remove the shadow consumption with sange with max merits would be nice to see