[Soap Box] {Lock On} & general charity shouts [Archive]

Toggles

09-17-2011, 07:42 AM

For what it's worth, I quit the game over three years ago only to come back about 3 month ago. So there may be some sort of 'shock' happening here.

Disclaimer, I'm NOT talking about brewed or previously acquired pop set {Lock On}s. I'm also NOT talking about shouts for equal participation/equal reward like 4 people grouping up to kill <seal dropper z> with each having 1 job locked.

With all that said, what is going on with all the 'charity' shouts I've been seeing these days? Is it just me? Is it just my server? Is this now the norm of FFXI?

What I'd define as a charity shout is a person or people shouting for help with a mob with virtually no reward or completely skewed rewards for those who answer.

Too often will I see people have shouts like these(which I consider as charity/no reward):
Shinryu {do you need it} {lock on} mail & knife 1/6 whm and mnk w/ proc
-I answer, join the party and find out shouter isn't brewing it; why does he get to lock not 1 but 2 top tier items?

<job A> <job B> seals {do you need it} 1/4
-This person wants to lot 2 seals but still have 3 people join. No I'm not talking about when people typo 2/4 as 1/4.

<timed spawn NM> {do you need it} {lock on} w/e all else FL 1/xx
-I join the party assuming I can lock 1 item which the shouter did not... nope! Shouter expects to get more people than the NM has drops and have everyone 'fight' for lots while shouter gets free/guaranteed drops.

<atma> {do you need it} ;may or may not job nazi
-I join, EVERYTHING is locked. Ok np I want the atma. Oh btw we have to farm the pop set . . . Oh btw, you have to stay to farm/pop 5 more after getting the atma. Some even go as far as not procing the atma until a few pops into it or the last pop.

How do people justify the idea that shouting for something takes so much effort that they are now entitled to such outrageous demands? It reminds me of the days when endgame LS leaders would gear themselves out on multiple jobs before gearing members.

As far as I'm concerned, if I have to farm the pop set and fight the fights then I'm 'entitled' to fair drop rules like everyone else... and so are the other helpers.

Inb4 'you don't have to join the shout'

Lastly, please don't strawman or argue the exception to the rule. But srsly, is it just me? Is it just my server? Is this now the norm of FFXI?

Rearden

09-17-2011, 07:47 AM

Don't join those groups?

Eric

09-17-2011, 08:01 AM

Seriously, just get a better LS.

Greatguardian

09-17-2011, 08:10 AM

Don't join those groups?

This.

People do this because they can get away with it. People will join anyways and allow themselves to be taken advantage of, knowing full well that the deal is total crap from the get-go.

The only real way to stop it is to just not deal in obviously skewed setups. Ye Olde Example: Dynamis Linkshells that don't sell/split currency. Oh, the leader is making over 3 million gil per run while everyone else has a chance to occasionally lot AF if it happens to drop? Yeah that's super fair and equitable. There's a reason reputable and competent players stopped having anything to do with shells like that years ago.

Did shells like that still exist up till the Dynamis changes? I'm sure they did. There will always be people with absolutely no sense of self-worth, or who plain don't know any better, who can be taken advantage of. All that the educated player can do is do what's right for themselves, and make sure they are not taken advantage of. The general public can't really be helped.

Toggles

09-17-2011, 08:20 AM

Don't join those groups?

Inb4 'you don't have to join the shout'

... But srsly, is it just me? Is it just my server? Is this now the norm of FFXI?
I don't. Well if I find out after joining I leave which is 'not joining' in spirit. But this is not the point and completely irrelevant to my post. Please don't continue troll internet forum mentality.

Seriously, just get a better LS.
At first I was going to say my LS is just fine. Then I realized it could be trolled that them not being on every second which I'm playing could constitute me needing a better LS so I'll change my response.(p.s. I'm not implying that you'd be a troll)

Anywho, it's not that my LS won't help me and I can't get things done without pug. I haven't _needed_ a pug since my first few weeks back. It's the matter that I'd like to get things done when I'm online during the day and my friends are not/are busy doing other things. Rest assured, I do get these things done at the point that our times line up, usually in the evening. But again, this is a derail to the point of my thread.

...Ye Olde Example: Dynamis Linkshells that don't sell/split currency. Oh, the leader is making over 3 million gil per run while everyone else has a chance to occasionally lot AF if it happens to drop? Yeah that's super fair and equitable. There's a reason reputable and competent players stopped having anything to do with shells like that years ago.
...
There will always be people with absolutely no sense of self-worth, or who plain don't know any better, who can be taken advantage of.
This is exactly what has me on my soap box. Back when I quit, these old 'take advantage of you' LS were strongly on the way out if not already gone. Fast forward to now I'm left wonder wtf happened as it has seemed to reverted a little from what I'm used to 3 years ago which has left me wondering is it my server or is it the norm now days?

Zagen

09-17-2011, 08:27 AM

I don't. Well if I find out after joining I leave which is 'not joining' in spirit. But this is not the point and completely irrelevant to my post. Please don't continue troll internet forum mentality.
The thing is that is the solution...

Actually I thought of another one, muster up the guts/strength/whatever you want to call it and lead the run you want X item from. Lock the 1 item and then invite people so they potentially get something out of it of equal value.

Toggles

09-17-2011, 08:35 AM

The thing is that is the solution...

Actually I thought of another one, muster up the guts/strength/whatever you want to call it and lead the run you want X item from. Lock the 1 item and then invite people so they potentially get something out of it of equal value.
Hehe, I've long thought about doing that. Kind of like undercutting but applied in a good way to bad shouts.

If I'm still interested in playing after I get my jobs geared up I may just make a LS dedicated to screwing over the 'screw you over' shouts. ;)

I had a LS like that for a brief period back on Fairy called "Call for Help". We'd answer shouts for some poor person that was shouting and couldn't get any help and then go do w/e they needed help with. Unfortunately it takes a certain type of person(who are few and far between) to be willing to be in a LS like that so it eventually fell apart. I'm sure it'd be much easier to do with Abyssea since most stuff is solo/duo/trio-able.

Shiyo

09-17-2011, 08:35 AM

Shouts like the ones in the OP usually get torn apart in /shout by other people. It's hilarious watching people lock literally every item and expecting people to come help.

Greatguardian

09-17-2011, 08:36 AM

This is exactly what has me on my soap box. Back when I quit, these old 'take advantage of you' LS were strongly on the way out if not already gone. Fast forward to now I'm left wonder wtf happened as it has seemed to reverted a little from what I'm used to 3 years ago which has left me wondering is it my server or is it the norm now days?

These linkshells weren't on the decline because there was a lack of people to take advantage of, though. Doing things with troglodytes who barely had the mental capacity to tie their own shoes just made things a headache back in the day, so people got tired of it and just gave up the scam. Now, when certain basic events (eg, seal farming) can be done practically afk, it's really not that bad to just get an alliance of randoms to kill things. It's not like they can fail even if no one can follow basic instructions.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not complaining about a lack of difficulty in Abyssea. I'm just saying that it does lead to people being able to functionally lower their standards without any real consequences. Abyssea will always be relevant as a casual playground, so I doubt this sort of thing will ever really go away. But every serious player will have at least started Voidwatch by the time the 95 update is fleshed out (and definitely by 99 or VW part 3), so it doesn't really affect me.

Shiyo

09-17-2011, 08:38 AM

When I shout for people, I basically solo the NM and invite morons to proc and TH for me. Sometimes I get people who can't even proc properly, it's pretty bad. I hate having to ask blus/blm's "Do you have all proc spells?"

Thankfully I pug things like, once in a blue moon.

Toggles

09-17-2011, 08:39 AM

Shouts like the ones in the OP usually get torn apart in /shout by other people. It's hilarious watching people lock literally every item and expecting people to come help.

I see you're from Sylph. Yes, they really do. It's a rare day that I'm logged in and don't see that happen in Jeuno.

The thing that I've been noticing, though, is that they're catching on and trying to be more covert with it. Usually bait and switch. I've personally experienced someone do the 'I want 2 drops' thing from my OP but lie and say there was a mythical person that never showed up and oh, he wanted the drops that were locked by the no show.

Shiyo

09-17-2011, 08:42 AM

LOL

I don't even like locking stuff for my friends that also are coming, I'm only shouting to get max TH/procs for the thing I want and can do the same for my friend on a better NM later...

I always have the pop sets pre-farmed, and always at least 2, usually 3 read to go x_x

Greatguardian

09-17-2011, 08:42 AM

I solo the game because I'm a boss and never have to deal with any shouts ever.

Just kidding. I have friends and kill things with them. Honestly that's the best answer, 110% of the time. I do not really see the point in playing social games without making friends anyways. Though to be fair, I abhor walking into most social shells because I generally just see a bunch of teenagers trying to cyber and e-flirt with each other. Gross.

Anethia

09-17-2011, 09:43 AM

Rearden

09-17-2011, 09:45 AM

I do both of those for great success

Greatguardian

09-17-2011, 09:46 AM

Setting stuff up doesn't entitle anyone to anything. That was just the excuse people used to use to justify ripping other people off. Nothing in this game requires such tactical coordination as to warrant a salary for performing it. Even when I handled tactical logistics for my endgame linkshell back when things were actually new and not-figured-out, the reward I got, and which I felt to be completely appropriate, was praise - not virtual material goods.

Edit: Though I don't condemn anyone who sells drops. That is a completely different story.

Shiyo

09-17-2011, 10:18 AM

I loved the guy on my server selling danzo sune-ate for 2M for like 3 weeks straight. Wonder if he finally found an idiot to buy them.

Toggles

09-17-2011, 10:23 AM

No it's not just your server, I see it all the time on Lakshmi. Most people go with the rule "the person is setting up the run, they get to lock anything they want". I can see that being the case if they took the time to farm the pops before hand, but if the shout includes farming pops then the shouter has no justification for locking items. However some exceptions are KI pops from time spawned NM's. In my case it's adze and some landworm NM for KI's for glavoid. But I have taken the time to farm 6 sets of pops for the other NM's.

Frankly I either solo stuff I need now or just wait til I have brews and just hope I get lucky. The people that get me are the ones who try to sell drops, a recent notable shout is loki's kaftan for 800k. Or even selling leech spots for 50k an hour per person that joins.

I don't know if I should feel better or worst that it's not just my server. ;)

I also don't like seeing people merc out things like loki's. Specifically because it gets in the way of people trying to get it themselves. It's one thing to have competition for a spawned mob because people need the items, it's another thing when it's someone to <insert insult> to get gil in a better way. Merc shinryu drops all you want afaic, leave the timed pops for people who need them.

Also, on Sylph leech spots go for 100k/hr. I don't know how I feel about leech spots. On one hand idc if people buy them as it doesn't affect me. On the other hand, if people are mercing leech spots just to merc leech spots, that takes away for the overall available mobs for people to farm for a real reason. (such as AF base feet, cruor, etc)

Rearden

09-17-2011, 10:33 AM

I don't see why you have more right to something because you're not selling it opposed to someone who is

Toggles

09-17-2011, 10:36 AM

I don't see why you have more right to something because you're not selling it opposed to someone who is

It's not about rights, it's about courtesy, ethics and R/Ex. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Fun fact: Selling R/Ex gear was started by RMT

Rearden

09-17-2011, 10:41 AM

If people will pay me for something, then why wouldn't I sell it assuming I am capable? I am being paid for my time and effort.

Your second statement is misleading, well, it's false. RMT sold R/E Sky gear, the rest was sold by regular players and it has been going on a lot longer than when RMT figured out Sky wasn't hard. Some of those players were RMT, but that's besides the point.

Toggles

09-17-2011, 10:50 AM

It started before sky gear >_>

It's unethical to claim a mob and 'force' someone to pay you for the drop all the while knowing that they can not get the drop since you have it claimed. You're creating a false market.

The whole idea of selling R/Ex is unethical and against the whole reason R/Ex was designed. Now I won't pull some ToS b.s. but if you fail to see the poor ethics behind selling timed spawned R/Ex gear then you're just greedy and selfish. More power to you I guess.

I'm the type of person that despite being sent a tell offering me 300k for ninja base feet while I'm farming for other things, I'll happily invite the person and let them have it for free. Why put the screw on your fellow gamer? Because ~you~'re(ambiguous) a d***, that's why.

Greatguardian

09-17-2011, 10:54 AM

Ethics has nothing to do with this. There is nothing inherently right or wrong about selling goods and services to other players.

If people feel more entitled to something because "They're using it" rather than "Selling it", that's just another holdover from the olden days of ripping people off. Ever have a Black Mage lot on 500k scrolls in a pickup group because they can "Use it"? Yes, they are ripping everyone else off. 500k is 500k. Everyone could "Use" 500k. Using the scroll or selling the scroll, it makes absolutely no difference. The value of the scroll is the same to everyone, Black Mage or not.

Sure, I might pass on a scroll my friend needs if we get one together. But that is because I am, essentially, being generous and giving him my 500k/(Number of Members) cut of the scroll. That is not because he inherently deserves it more than anyone else.

Most "Old Courtesy" in this game consists primarily of ways people can try to justify ripping each other off.

Shiyo

09-17-2011, 10:58 AM

Selling gear is fine.

Rearden

09-17-2011, 11:07 AM

I guess that makes me a rich d***

katz

09-17-2011, 01:42 PM

There are even worst types out there. They say lock 2 items but when something else drops they say that was locked too....

katz

09-17-2011, 01:46 PM

Kimble

09-17-2011, 01:50 PM

SE has said there is nothing with it before and will not ban you for it. So, if its OK by them, its ok to do.

Greatguardian

09-17-2011, 02:07 PM

When people win a claim, they win the right to anything the monster drops, whether it's the right to keep the items or sell them is up to them. If they lose that claim, you have the chance to claim that right from them.

Likewise, if you don't like that X player is spamming Charybdis just to sell the sword or something similar, just outclaim them. You have as good a chance as they do, assuming equal levels of speed, skill, and attention.

SE has always allowed players to do pretty much whatever they want in terms of finances. No one is getting scammed. People are just purchasing the right to lot on an item.

katz

09-17-2011, 02:15 PM

Kimble

09-17-2011, 02:26 PM

The trouble is the playing fields arent level out there. We all know people who use windower to see mobs "appear" long time before anyone else can see them. The amount of server lags also disadvantages the non pc users. So its not just everyone has the same chance of claiming the mobs, some people have a greater chance.

Wrong. Sorry.

Rearden

09-17-2011, 02:26 PM

The trouble is the playing fields arent level out there. We all know people who use windower to see mobs "appear" long time before anyone else can see them. The amount of server lags also disadvantages the non pc users. So its not just everyone has the same chance of claiming the mobs, some people have a greater chance.

wawawawawawahaaat? Explain your demon magic sorcerer

Greatguardian

09-17-2011, 02:27 PM

Oh lord. Really now?

Have you even played on PC/Windower before?

Puck

09-17-2011, 02:51 PM

Lastly, please don't strawman or argue the exception to the rule.
I've seen a ton of people on this forum throw around the term "strawman" but none of them have used it correctly.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0912/that-word-inigo-montoya-word-think-means-princess-bride-mand-demotivational-poster-1260739585.jpg)

Exxodus

09-17-2011, 03:01 PM

Hmm, the OP has brought up a topic that sounds very similar to a /shout arguement that took place in Port Jeuno earlier today, on Sylph. The group leader was shouting to set up a run for Ironclad Severer. The shout stated that the Wieldance Jewel was locked, and that the BLM, PUP, and SMN items, and Ardor Jewel were FL.

Someone started attacking the leader for "locking everything" and forcing people to do work for him for no reward. The attacker was very persistent that in order to make the run fair, that the leader should not be locking "all of the wieldance" jewels.

If this is what the OP is referencing, then I don't see this being a problem. As the arguement went on, the leader picked up people that all wanted seperate items, yes I was in the party for the Goetia Mantle, and there was absolutely nothing unfair about the way the drops were disturbuted.

However, there are some rediculous situations such as one I came across a few days ago. Someone was shouting for help with an NM and stated that the seals were FL and that they were proc'ing red for an atma. I wanted the atma and told the leader that I was also interested in one of the seals that no one was lotting on. I was told that I could only lot seals if I purchased a pop item. That was no big deal, I just decided to go get the atma and leave the seals for someone else.

When we got to the zone however, the leader said that he had only brought with him 1 of the 2 pop items, and that we had to farm the other. After putting in the time to farm half of the pop set, he still refused to let anyone else lot on any seals because they didn't purchase and bring with them the pop items. After the NM was defeated and everyone got the atma, he expected people to stick around and help him kill it again. Needless to say that didn't happen and a short time later he was back to shouting for help and again saying that the seals were FL.

Personally I don't care how many items a group leader wants to lock as long as I can get what I need from the run. If you can set up a run and lock 2 or 3 items and find people willing to help you because they need whatever items aren't locked, then there's nothing wrong with that. My only issue comes when they want to "call it" when they've gotten their items instead of sticking it out to help the rest of the group, or when they expect people to stay and help them for no reward or to lot against several people all wanting the same item, while they have sole claim over the rest.

katz

09-17-2011, 03:27 PM

Oh lord. Really now?

Have you even played on PC/Windower before?
Im not talking about SE's version. Maybe people dont trust you enough with their specialist leet stuff.

Greatguardian

09-17-2011, 03:34 PM

Im not talking about SE's version. Maybe people dont trust you enough with their specialist leet stuff.

No, I'm talking Windower. As in Aikar, Nitsuj, etc. Have you even played on it before? Because your lack of firsthand experience is astoundingly obvious in your posts.

Shiyo

09-17-2011, 03:53 PM

The trouble is the playing fields arent level out there. We all know people who use windower to see mobs "appear" long time before anyone else can see them. The amount of server lags also disadvantages the non pc users. So its not just everyone has the same chance of claiming the mobs, some people have a greater chance.
This is gold, LOL

Your stupidity is showing.

Kuishen

09-17-2011, 04:02 PM

The trouble is the playing fields arent level out there. We all know people who use windower to see mobs "appear" long time before anyone else can see them. The amount of server lags also disadvantages the non pc users. So its not just everyone has the same chance of claiming the mobs, some people have a greater chance.

Where can I get some of what you're smoking?

noodles355

09-17-2011, 04:52 PM

The trouble is the playing fields arent level out there. We all know people who use windower to see mobs "appear" long time before anyone else can see them.Oh really? If you could link me to where this feature is posted I would be very interested. I could use something like that.

(Legal: Not stating I use windower. Assume theoretical "If I used windower")

katz

09-17-2011, 05:03 PM

Wow i didnt know there were so many players that havent seen people do this. Next thing you be telling me is you havent seen them climb up walls or through walls >.>

Greatguardian

09-17-2011, 05:12 PM

Wow i didnt know there were so many players that havent seen people do this. Next thing you be telling me is you havent seen them climb up walls or through walls >.>

Again - Have you ever even used Windower before? Do you have even the foggiest idea what in the hell you're actually talking about?

You can't target monsters at their spawn location before they spawn. Period. Even the most advanced Windower plugins only allow you to view corpses, and even that is pretty useless.

As for monsters loading faster on PC, that's a load of crock. The difference is so negligible that any normal human being wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

noodles355

09-17-2011, 05:24 PM

Toggles

09-17-2011, 05:29 PM

SE has said there is nothing with it before and will not ban you for it. So, if its OK by them, its ok to do.
Assuming you're talking about R/Ex, that's not true. While you won't get banned for it, SE did go out of their way to change certain timed NM drops from Rare to R/Ex because of RMT. RMT then decided to sell the R/Ex item to those camping the R/Ex versions. This way they also tried to(and succeeded) drive up the prices of the non-Ex versions that they had stock piled. It wasn't until enough BCNMers spammed said BCNMs that the market normalized.

The boon which the players thought SE made was short lived. Sure it maybe not be something said verbally but if you can't see the connection then I don't know how to discuss with you. If SE were to make a statement on such a lowly issue it'd probably something along the lines of it being frowned upon but no prosecuted. For those with a lack of morales and ethics, I'm sure that alone would be enough justification.

Ethics has nothing to do with this. There is nothing inherently right or wrong about selling goods and services to other players.
Wrong.

There is everything inherently wrong when creating a false market. You're falsifying the market by artificially throttling the supply, a supply that is not suppose to be yours. Also, please stop ignoring the distinction between R and R/Ex gear. Scroll != R/Ex

Edjamacation prz

When people win a claim, they win the right to anything the monster drops, whether it's the right to keep the items or sell them is up to them. If they lose that claim, you have the chance to claim that right from them.
This is really stretching reality to suit your own view point. If what you said is true and SE intended for R/Ex gear to be sold then why make it R/Ex in the first place when it simply could be Rare. Obviously R/Ex was never intended to have an economic value. If we can not agree on that then I have nothing further to discuss with you.

Sell it all you want because you can, it doesn't make it right.

just outclaim them. You have as good a chance as they do, assuming equal levels of speed, skill, and attention.
To this day, people still cheat and bot. Ignoring this proves one's hidden agenda. Denying this just proves one's ignorance.

I've seen a ton of people on this forum throw around the term "strawman" but none of them have used it correctly.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0912/that-word-inigo-montoya-word-think-means-princess-bride-mand-demotivational-poster-1260739585.jpg)

That's for the link, it put a smile on my face. However you couldn't be more wrong, which is as funny as a grammar nazi misspelling words when correcting someone's grammar.

Firstly, in the context I used the word in it'd be very hard to wrongfully use even if I didn't know the meaning. Secondly, I know exactly what it means. Heck, even if I didn't I could just google it, I mean srsy? So... 2/10... since you got a reply out of me. ;)

Hmm, the OP has brought up a topic that sounds very similar to a /shout arguement that took place in Port Jeuno earlier today, on Sylph. The group leader was shouting to set up a run for Ironclad Severer. The shout stated that the Wieldance Jewel was locked, and that the BLM, PUP, and SMN items, and Ardor Jewel were FL.

Someone started attacking the leader for "locking everything" and forcing people to do work for him for no reward. The attacker was very persistent that in order to make the run fair, that the leader should not be locking "all of the wieldance" jewels.

If this is what the OP is referencing, then I don't see this being a problem.
I stopped reading here. No, it wasn't in regards to it. In fact I didn't even see that shout fight.

If you understood my post better you'd know that I'm for the idea of mutually beneficial shouts like that.(which is what it seemed like from what you wrote) There's nothing wrong with taking 4 people to kill a mob that drops 4 items(or in your case 5), each person locked onto a specific item.

But thank you for proving my point that this kind of drama is unavoidable on Sylph explaining why I posted in the first place.

As for monsters loading faster on PC, that's a load of crock. The difference is so negligible that any normal human being wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
I'm not picking on you, I swear!

Many people believe otherwise, however they believe in favor of PS2. (lolwut, yeah man srsly) There's logic in this as the game was designed on the PS2 and ported over to PC/Xbox. I'm not sure where the xbox fairs but I tell you this much, not everyone loads equally.

My wife's character will ALWAYS see things before me despite the fact that my character existed about a year before her's and that I have at least the same, if not better, connection via our router and have always had the better PC since I use it more. The only thing i can think of is my name being further in the alphabet than hers but I'd seriously hope SE isn't that bad to have done that.

katz

09-17-2011, 05:50 PM

Walking up or through walls? Another windower feature that you have just made up. That is not part of windower. That is/was part of bot packages like FFXIApp or that Wizbot one.

I suggest in the future you research the product you are arguing against before posting. Maybe it'll help you not look like a 'tard.
Before you go slandering anyone about tard you should check the facts out, I wasnt the only person in the group who saw the said individual climbing up the wall to get to an nm pop that you normally have to conflux to. Just because you are naive enough to think people dont cheat in the game doesnt mean it doesnt go on. Its sad that I hear people say "Im using the "special" JP pop system to out pop everyone" and you see the said person out pop the groups time after time. You think they just get lucky then you are extremely naive.
And yes, its probably not basic windower but when people say I got to load windower to do it then windower is to blame as much as any of the bot programs. PS and Xbox dont get windower, therefore this is also as far as Im concerned another advantage over other players.

Puck

09-17-2011, 06:46 PM

That's for the link, it put a smile on my face. However you couldn't be more wrong, which is as funny as a grammar nazi misspelling words when correcting someone's grammar.

You implored people not to "strawman;" explain what you think that means. Because you're using a buzzword people like to throw around on here a lot, and none of you really know what it means or how to use it.

Harukusan

09-17-2011, 06:58 PM

Whoa... everyone needs to get off their high horses and chill...

First of all, Windower is proven to be a harmless tool, whether or not you are on PC, people who use it don't affect anyone else around them. The ability to actually hack or alter the gameplay mechanics are separate programs which people actually pay for and are definitely illegal. No one is denying that people use them, but that's beside the fact that it's completely off topic.

Second: I don't know about your server, but on Rag (and Caitsith) I never saw or knew anyone to camp timed NMs solely to exploit and profit from rare/ex drops. Typically when people sell such items, they already have buyers lined up, therefore those who are selling the items are actually accepting money for their time and effort in assisting players who would not be able to acquire such gear on their own. Doing this is 100% NOT morally or financially incorrect in any way.

There are those who like to shout in Port all day like in the OP's examples who offer no reward for peoples' assistance, those are the groups you typically want to avoid because the only help they get really know how to derp it up. However, it does provide good entertainment when you're bored.

Also, some fool was trying to sell leech spots in Abys for a mil a head earlier, granted he promised 30-90 in a sitting, I can find my way into those parties for free almost effortlessly. It's so sad. Fortunately money is almost worthless these days so no one is really hurting from any of these 'exploitations.'

Aver

09-17-2011, 07:48 PM

Lol at the people who still don't understand what windower is and does in 2011.

Lord, sometimes I wonder how you have the mental capicity to use a computer. Research the topic, because windower does not do what you think it does. It's not some sorcerous heathen tool that lets you manipulate space-time before the unwashed masses.

katz

09-17-2011, 08:59 PM

Rearden

09-17-2011, 09:06 PM

Toggles

09-17-2011, 09:18 PM

You implored people not to "strawman;" explain what you think that means. Because you're using a buzzword people like to throw around on here a lot, and none of you really know what it means or how to use it.

*sigh* If you wanted to know how to use it you could just google it. ;)

Anyway, when I asked people not to strawman me I was asking them to refrain from taking my words and turning them into something I didn't say for the sake of 'proving me wrong' all the while I never said w/e twisted point they're now arguing.

My disclaimer addressed obvious strawman arguments that I saw coming.

An example would be the post by Exxodus. Despite my disclaimer, he still was confused about my stance. However confused != strawman. I don't feel like he strawman'd my OP but it came very close. "If this is what the OP is referencing" was the saving grace. As you can see in my response to his post, I am not against what he referenced. Had he implied I was[against] and then went on to show me how I was wrong under said skewed circumstances...

Another borderline strawman post is when Greatguardian brought up Rare nonEx scrolls that BLMs want to lot. The only difference is he didn't 'accuse' me of having that stance, instead he likened it to what I was saying. I'm sure that's probably a fuzzy line that people often can't tell the difference between... maybe what you're referring to on your little crusade here.

Again, you could have just googled it instead of asking me to explain it for you, it's a pretty simple concept to grasp. ;)

take what someone said/their position
change it slightly(to be obviously wrong) to suit your needs
easily 'prove them wrong' because of your changes
???
profit

Now happily admit you're a 'grammar nazi misspelling word while scolding someone for improper spelling' and we can be on our ways. ;)

katz

09-17-2011, 09:24 PM

Isnt English a wonderful language. Spoken in so many countries and yet somehow the same words are used for different meanings. A strawman poll is used as a vote amongst peers.

Puck

09-17-2011, 11:18 PM

*sigh* If you wanted to know how to use it you could just google it. ;)

Anyway, when I asked people not to strawman me I was asking them to refrain from taking my words and turning them into something I didn't say for the sake of 'proving me wrong' all the while I never said w/e twisted point they're now arguing.

My disclaimer addressed obvious strawman arguments that I saw coming.

An example would be the post by Exxodus. Despite my disclaimer, he still was confused about my stance. However confused != strawman. I don't feel like he strawman'd my OP but it came very close. "If this is what the OP is referencing" was the saving grace. As you can see in my response to his post, I am not against what he referenced. Had he implied I was[against] and then went on to show me how I was wrong under said skewed circumstances...

Another borderline strawman post is when Greatguardian brought up Rare nonEx scrolls that BLMs want to lot. The only difference is he didn't 'accuse' me of having that stance, instead he likened it to what I was saying. I'm sure that's probably a fuzzy line that people often can't tell the difference between... maybe what you're referring to on your little crusade here.

Again, you could have just googled it instead of asking me to explain it for you, it's a pretty simple concept to grasp. ;)

take what someone said/their position
change it slightly(to be obviously wrong) to suit your needs
easily 'prove them wrong' because of your changes
???
profit

Now happily admit you're a 'grammar nazi misspelling word while scolding someone for improper spelling' and we can be on our ways. ;)

Maybe you should've taken your own advice and Googled it before you proved that you don't know what it means.

straw man
n.
1. A person who is set up as a cover or front for a questionable enterprise.
2. An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated.
3. A bundle of straw made into the likeness of a man and often used as a scarecrow.

You didn't provide a single example of someone employing a strawman argument. Instead you cobbled together your own idea of what you think it means and gave examples that in no way exemplified the use of a strawman.

Now happily admit that you threw around a buzzword with no idea what it actually meant like so many other "master debaters" on this board.

noodles355

09-18-2011, 12:05 AM

Before you go slandering anyone about tard you should check the facts out, I wasnt the only person in the group who saw the said individual climbing up the wall to get to an nm pop that you normally have to conflux to. Just because you are naive enough to think people dont cheat in the game doesnt mean it doesnt go on."My group is retarded enough to think that this tool is a product of the windower team".

How about you take a mintue to re-read my post:

THIS IS NOT A WINDOWER PLUGIN.

WHAT YOU ALL WITNESSED WAS A PLAYER USING A DIFFERENT 3RD PARTY APPLICATION LIKE FFXIAPP OR WIZBOT.

You quoted me then tried to argue against me but didn't even apparantly read my post. My issue with your posts is that you accuse windower.net of offering plugins or services that are just not offered. In all cases what you saw was a player using a botting program like FFXIAPP or Wizbot. However, you slander Windower.net by suggesting this crap is available through them. It is not. You have done no research. You are starting trouble for no reason other than either 1) ignorance or 2) trolling. Sit down, shut up.

Aver

09-18-2011, 03:00 AM

Lol all you want about windower. It still gives you an advantage over other users who cant use it. Id love to write the macros you guys can but sadly xbox dont allow it. You Can use windower to re write dat files to accept 3rd party software. The fact that you dont know this is surprising how little you exploit your windower. Remind me again if its harmless how come you need to use it over someone who doesnt use it. You might think you arent getting any advantages but then why are you using it. Id ban all windows from the game on the pc if I could. Windower has not been proven to not give you any advantage. The day you put it on xbox and its the same is the day you can prove it.

1) Windower cannot "rewrite dat files"
2) Datmodding does not give an advantage to the player (unless you count clearing the HORRIBAD LAG FROM CONFLUXES an advantage)
3) Windower Team (Nitsuj, Aikar, Azaril, etc) != w!zbot team != random billy bot maker. Get your facts straight. Windower team is very much against botting, which, if you would look 6 inches past your nose and check out the forums and approved/unapproved mods you would see.

Gawd.

Rearden

09-18-2011, 04:03 AM

Isnt English a wonderful language. Spoken in so many countries and yet somehow the same words are used for different meanings. A strawman poll is used as a vote amongst peers.

Whatever you say Kyi :3

Kiroh

09-18-2011, 04:39 AM

Isnt English a wonderful language. Spoken in so many countries and yet somehow the same words are used for different meanings. A strawman poll is used as a vote amongst peers.

No no, that's a straw poll, not strawman.

A strawman argument is picking out one specific part of a statement and attacking it, rather than addressing the issues raised.

And @ OP, I agree that locking everything just because you start the group is BS and idiotic. My remedy though is to just ignore the groups. I admit I have had people who joined just to help, but I've never locked more than one item per character in the group. I also don't do FL on items unless no one has locked it, I don't like groups where people are fighting for drops so everyone gets to lock an item before we head out. Seems like common sense to me that everyone gets something for their work.

Greatguardian

09-18-2011, 04:42 AM

Still off.

Straw manning is taking an opponent's argument, ignoring it completely, and then creating an argument that looks similar to theirs on the outside and destroying it without actually addressing the original point.

Example:

-"Dogs are smelly"
-"Dogs? Cats clean themselves all the time! How can you call Cats smelly when they're practically always licking themselves? You're an idiot!"
-"What the crap does that have to do with dogs?"

wish12oz

09-18-2011, 04:48 AM

I don't know if I should feel better or worst that it's not just my server. ;)

It's not just your server. I see downs syndrome kids shouting for stuff all the time on Odin. I think it's fun to join these groups, then ditch after they get there, also to call them foolish in shout, or shout and say I'm doing the same thing they are, but not being dumb about it.

The new annoyance is the people who join shouts for NMs that have decently expensive pop items, and then don't buy pops, but want equal lotting rights on stuff. That just infuriates me.

Toggles

09-18-2011, 05:59 AM

</3 to the huge derails.

A big thanks to Anethia, Harukusan and wish12oz(love the sig) for addressing the topic in which I was interested. Now I know that Lakshmi, Ragnarok, Caitsith and Odin have the same junk, at least to some degree.

Greatguardian, we obviously don't agree on some issues, nothing personal. Sorry for the "Edjamacation" cheap shot, I was irked by the strawman accusation and it slipped out.

Maybe you should've taken your own advice and Googled it before you proved that you don't know what it means.

straw man
n.
1. A person who is set up as a cover or front for a questionable enterprise.
2. An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated.
3. A bundle of straw made into the likeness of a man and often used as a scarecrow.

You didn't provide a single example of someone employing a strawman argument. Instead you cobbled together your own idea of what you think it means and gave examples that in no way exemplified the use of a strawman.

Now happily admit that you threw around a buzzword with no idea what it actually meant like so many other "master debaters" on this board.
Darn my overwhelming urge to insult you. I'll try to keep this as civil as possible.

What I said falls under point 2 of your definition, it's just a condensed explanation of what I said. I'll explain for you.

"2. An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated."

An argument or opponent = take what someone said/their position
set up so as to be = change it slightly(to be obviously wrong) to suit your needs
easily refuted or defeated. = easily 'prove them wrong' because of your changes
"??? profit" = for the lols because forum discussions get too heated and could use some lols

What Kiroh said is a way(i.e. taking words out of context) you can strawman but is not an all inclusive definition. Greatguardian's definition was dead on. I'll reiterate, my original usage of the word was just fine and so was my post explaining it.

I've been using the term 'straw man' before it became a buzz word and I'm flattered that you'd liken me to a 'master-debater'. Really, I'm just some schmuck with strong opinions.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&biw=1920&bih=868&q=straw+man&oq=straw+man&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=3464l3464l0l3740l1l1l0l0l0l0l193l193l0.1l1l0

All from the first page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

Description of Straw Man
The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/strawman.html

As the "straw man" metaphor suggests, the counterfeit position attacked in a Straw Man argument is typically weaker than the opponent's actual position, just as a straw man is easier to defeat than a flesh-and-blood one. Of course, this is no accident, but is part of what makes the fallacy tempting to commit, especially to a desperate debater who is losing an argument.
http://www.drury.edu/ess/Logic/Informal/Strawman.html

Straw Man occurs when

an opponent takes the original argument of his/her adversary

and then offers a close imitation, or straw man, version of the original argument;

"knocks down" the straw man version of the argument (because the straw man, as its name implies, is a much easier target to hit, undermine, etc.)

-- and thereby gives the appearance of having successfully countered/overcome/answered the original argument.

Now happily admit you're guilty of your own accusations and we can be on our ways. ;)

Meyi

09-18-2011, 06:17 AM

The trouble is the playing fields arent level out there. We all know people who use windower to see mobs "appear" long time before anyone else can see them. The amount of server lags also disadvantages the non pc users.

Wow so much wrong here.

Windower doesn't allow anyone to see anything before anyone else. All Windower does is make the game go into a windowed mode. To my knowledge there are no plugins that allow for this. If someone is seeing monsters then they are using a bot of some sort.

Also, PC have much more lag than PS2. PS2 players obtain information way before PC. My old LS leader was a PS2 leader and he could outclaim lots of people because of this. If you don't believe me, go to an airship on a PC and a PS2; for the PS2 version the airship will stop and you can board, but for the PC version, you can board the airship before the airship has fully stopped.

Also Japanese receive information faster than North Americans. (Or at least they used to, I don't know if this is accurate anymore.)

To the OP, if there's a scam shout, don't join it. If people are idiotic enough to join it then they will hopefully learn their lesson when it's over.

I have to say I disagree with GreatGuardian about the Black Mage scrolls only because the item doesn't evenly distribute money to everyone who worked for it. First off not everyone in the alliance pulls their weight equally (some don't even pull their weight at all) and secondly the scroll can only benefit one person. While I agree that 500k would be nice to have and that they are ripping us off of a profit, the scroll isn't a guaranteed profit until the scroll appears in my inventory. Nothing gained, nothing lost. I'd personally rather see someone benefit from it because I know the struggle of collecting gil for scrolls and armor, but like I said, I can understand how it could be considered a scam.

I only get angry when people claim that they can "use" something only to turn around and sell it on the auction house.

Edit: Wanted to add a bit more.

Wrong.

There is everything inherently wrong when creating a false market. You're falsifying the market by artificially throttling the supply, a supply that is not suppose to be yours. Also, please stop ignoring the distinction between R and R/Ex gear. Scroll != R/Ex

Um, do you know how mercenary groups actually work? I have never seen a mercenary group randomly pick a monster, go out, outclaim other people, and then laugh at them as they ask for money or to let the item drop. While this may happen it's not the norm.

How mercenary groups normally work is that they decide they want to kill a monster for x item, but nobody in the group wants y item, so they shout or /tell around asking who would like to buy the y item from them. Whoever buys it doesn't have to do any work, just has to provide the appropriate amount of gil.

My linkshell sells tons of +2 items because we're there for the emp. item, not the gems. The gems are sold to people who could use them but don't have the manpower to kill the NMs. They walk away with their new +2 armor and we walk away with lots of gil. There's absolutely nothing wrong, disgusting, or immoral about our transaction.

Whether the item is normal, rare, ex, or rare/ex doesn't matter. An item is an item. Some people have lots of friends, a good linkshell, or a decent way to rally up manpower. Some people don't. For those that don't there is gil to help them get whatever it is they need.

In before "rare/ex means you need to work for it!!!!"

This is really stretching reality to suit your own view point. If what you said is true and SE intended for R/Ex gear to be sold then why make it R/Ex in the first place when it simply could be Rare. Obviously R/Ex was never intended to have an economic value. If we can not agree on that then I have nothing further to discuss with you.

They never said we couldn't sell rare/ex. If that was the case then we would be seeing more Voidwatcher like items where you have to participate to get a reward at the end, and nobody can share their rewards with each other via a treasure pool.

It's rare/ex so you cannot trade, bazaar, auction house, or send it through the delivery box (minus mules). That doesn't mean you cannot trade something else for lottings rights to this item, such as your time (by joining a linkshell or killing a different monster in exchange), points (a linkshell), or gil.

Sell it all you want because you can, it doesn't make it right.

Doesn't make it wrong either.

I was always thankful of mercenary linkshells because I never wanted to join a linkshell and deal with the rules of attendance and lotting rights. I could farm money on my own time, play whenever I wanted without being a slave to a group of people, and in the end walk away with items I wanted. Same with people willing to buy things my group doesn't want; at least the items are going to someone who can use them rather than rotting.

To this day, people still cheat and bot. Ignoring this proves one's hidden agenda. Denying this just proves one's ignorance.

Some do, some don't. It is just a video game after all, does it matter if someone cheated when you log out of the game and attend to real life responsibilities?

I personally don't see any pleasure in cheating because it is just a game. If I'm going to put in that much energy I'd rather go find something else to do.

There's nothing wrong with taking 4 people to kill a mob that drops 4 items(or in your case 5), each person locked onto a specific item.

I'm honestly surprised people are so offended by having other people lotting on the same item as you. Back in the day monsters we would farm would have very very poor drop rates, and everyone was after the same thing. Now that monsters drop up to 4 different kinds of seals, people feel entitled to one of them. I have no qualms with everyone locking in a job/item, but sometimes people have to share to get the necessary job or help in.

Kimble

09-18-2011, 06:22 AM

I really dont get the big deal over this. People are free to shout and do what they. If people want to join, they are free to do so. If they just want one seal and dont care about the other 3, they prob could care less if one person is getting the other 3.

Would I join? Most likely not. Should I start a fight with them and mess with them and call them stupid for doing it? Not really. Everyone has freedom of choice.

Shiyo

09-18-2011, 06:37 AM

Wow this entire thread is like a gigantic waterfall of misinformation.

Puck

09-18-2011, 08:05 AM

Darn my overwhelming urge to insult you. I'll try to keep this as civil as possible.

What I said falls under point 2 of your definition, it's just a condensed explanation of what I said. I'll explain for you.

"2. An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted or defeated."

An argument or opponent = take what someone said/their position
set up so as to be = change it slightly(to be obviously wrong) to suit your needs
easily refuted or defeated. = easily 'prove them wrong' because of your changes
"??? profit" = for the lols because forum discussions get too heated and could use some lols

What Kiroh said is a way(i.e. taking words out of context) you can strawman but is not an all inclusive definition. Greatguardian's definition was dead on. I'll reiterate, my original usage of the word was just fine and so was my post explaining it.

I've been using the term 'straw man' before it became a buzz word and I'm flattered that you'd liken me to a 'master-debater'. Really, I'm just some schmuck with strong opinions.[/B]
Yet you're still stretching the term to cover things that clearly are not strawman arguments. Comparisons, analogies, and the use of relevant examples are not "strawmanning" (to use your verb form). "Taking words out of context" is not the use of a strawman, either. These are common points that occur in any discussion that lately people are throwing the term "strawman" at to dismiss comments that refute their standpoint, much like throwing the term "trolling" at a comment (which you've already done).

There's not really anything to "strawman" about your original post to begin with. It's just a rant. It took the conversation shifting to a discussion about whether or not it's "ethical" for people to sell the rights to Ra/Ex items before an actual argument with some sort of point/counterpoint emerged. Even then it hasn't occurred in regards to your rant.

Actually the closest thing to the use of a straw man in this thread isn't even related to your post. It's Katz trying to bring up Windower in response to Greatguardian's post about claiming. He did so, however, due to extreme ignorance of what Windower actually can and can't do, but went there anyway thinking it was easier to attack rather than actually addressing Greatguardian's points about the rights to claims.

katz

09-18-2011, 10:53 AM

I admit I have never looked into a 3rd party software called windower. I was refering to the comments other people said to me when I saw incidents. As to windower that you guys are all getting on your high horses about, it is still giving you advantages that are not available to xbox and ps2 users. I know this for a fact, my pc version sees more than my xbox version, like 10 secs more. Both are logged in the game at the same time, I see one char drops 10secs before I see the other char drops. So I can see with my own eyes that pcs have advantages over xbox users. For people who say there isnt any difference, I would suggest you try using alternative systems and see it for yourself. As far as Im concerned windower is a 3rd party software that is not supplied by SE and is therefore against existing SE policies no matter what it does.

Byrth

09-18-2011, 10:59 AM

What you're describing is actually an artifact of the disengaging process, I think. From what I've seen, character that kills the monster always seems to see the drops in the log later. It's not related to PS2 or PC. I've sat two PCs next to each other and my WHM consistently sees drops first.

katz

09-18-2011, 11:05 AM

Hmm but what about if you didnt kill the mob on either char and you still see the difference?

Byrth

09-18-2011, 11:07 AM

I don't know, because I was duoing. I know that the treasure box icon showed up above the character names at the same time on both PCs. I think it's like how the opener of a BC treasure box always sees the loot in the chat log last.

Toggles

09-18-2011, 03:09 PM

Yet you're still stretching the term to cover things that clearly are not strawman arguments. Comparisons, analogies, and the use of relevant examples are not "strawmanning" (to use your verb form). "Taking words out of context" is not the use of a strawman, either. These are common points that occur in any discussion that lately people are throwing the term "strawman" at to dismiss comments that refute their standpoint, much like throwing the term "trolling" at a comment (which you've already done).

There's not really anything to "strawman" about your original post to begin with. It's just a rant. It took the conversation shifting to a discussion about whether or not it's "ethical" for people to sell the rights to Ra/Ex items before an actual argument with some sort of point/counterpoint emerged. Even then it hasn't occurred in regards to your rant.

Actually the closest thing to the use of a straw man in this thread isn't even related to your post. It's Katz trying to bring up Windower in response to Greatguardian's post about claiming. He did so, however, due to extreme ignorance of what Windower actually can and can't do, but went there anyway thinking it was easier to attack rather than actually addressing Greatguardian's points about the rights to claims.
You're not worth my time anymore so I'll try to keep this short.

What Kiroh said is a way(i.e. taking words out of context) you can strawman but is not an all inclusive definition.

"Taking words out of context" is not the use of a strawman, either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Reasoning

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:
1. Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.
2. Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[2]
3. Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments — thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[1]
4. Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
5. Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
3. Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious, because attacking a distorted version of a position fails to constitute an attack on the actual position.

You have a serious reading comprehension problem. When I listed in-thread examples I specifically stated they fell short. Funny that, considering the relevancy of your posts to this topic. No, seriously, do you even realize how many times you've done it in this thread, presumably without even knowing since you still can't fully understand the term.

ANYTHING(virtually?) can be strawman'd, even a 'rant'. Why you think otherwise it beyond me.

Sources cited, examples given, simplistic step by step comparisons made showing your errors, yet you still fail to accept that you're wrong. Others' have tried their hand at it and you do not budge. Just about all your words can accurately be said straight back to you, that's how out of touch your are on the topic.

You struck me as a total troll from the start but I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Since then I've realized I should have went with my initial instinct instead of helping out your 'ignorance'. I'll be disregarding the rest of your posts on the matter. Neither side wins in a "NO, you!" war.

Good day to you, sir.

Puck

09-18-2011, 03:33 PM

Yep, you went back down the route of insinuating "trolling" just as you did before. Good luck avoiding all that "strawmanning" and other forms of "trolling" trampling over your ultimately irrelevant rants in the future.

Toggles

09-18-2011, 03:50 PM

stuff (sorry for the snip)
Okay so first off I actually agree with or don't have a problem with most of the things you said.

A couple things:

I have never seen a mercenary group randomly pick a monster, go out, outclaim other people, and then laugh at them as they ask for money or to let the item drop. While this may happen it's not the norm.
I have. It didn't happen to me personally but I've seen it happen more than once. It was a pretty cr*p thing to watch.

I agree when you say it's not the norm but it sure must have been 'norm' enough for the poor people I saw get shafted. Maybe there was more to it, maybe not, idk but nevertheless it exists. Let's not forget that 1 out of 100,000 is still 100% to the 1 person out of every 100,000.

There's absolutely nothing wrong, disgusting, or immoral about our transaction.
You're fighting the mob because you guys need something. There's nothing wrong with that. Making someone else pay for an item that would otherwise 'drop into the abyss' just because you don't know them is, well... it's definitely not 'nice', that's for sure.

I'm not talking about that in the OP, though. It's a gray area I don't care to get into, both sides have valid points.

The 'immoral' I was speaking about(before I got derailed by others) was falsely creating a market for said R/Ex item. inb4 poidh ;)

In before "rare/ex means you need to work for it!!!!"lol

They never said we couldn't sell rare/ex.I agree. But as I said to GG(I think), it's pretty obvious that they never intended for R/Ex to be sold... another grey area.

It's like saying "if I can climb the fence then it's okay for me to be in there". Logicically we know the purpose of a fence as we do the purpose of a R/Ex tag. If we can't agree on this then there's no further discussion for the two of us to have.

I'm honestly surprised people are so offended by having other people lotting on the same item as you. Back in the day monsters we would farm would have very very poor drop rates, and everyone was after the same thing. Now that monsters drop up to 4 different kinds of seals, people feel entitled to one of them. I have no qualms with everyone locking in a job/item, but sometimes people have to share to get the necessary job or help in.

This is the big one I wanted to address, mainly the earlier parts of it. Yeah, I was there when you'd have an alliance going into EN and the second someone finally got their paper they magically had some pressing matter that they needed to attend. Thing is, if I wanted to be playing that kind of game after all these years... well, I wouldn't want to be, period.

Now onto the correction I have to make of that quote in regards to my OP. I'm not offended by lotting against others in equality, never said I was.

Here's what I'm 'offended' about(remember, this is a package deal):

Shouter gets guaranteed lots
NM takes no prep work -or- equal prep work is not present
Everyone else who fought equally as hard are FLing for drops for which there are not enough of for all

Now this may not be a common occurrence on your server. From my experience on my server, however, it is.

Where does it end? Selling atmas? Selling boss clears? Because I've seen both of those and that's just jerk s**t right there. I'm not talking about "I'll pay you to get me an atma", I'm talking about group of 8-10 people killing w/e boss and won't invite you for clear unless you pay. They lose nothing from you joining...

ceown

09-18-2011, 04:25 PM

To get this on topic.

Before SE decided they didn't want me playing more I saw these all over Phoenix as well.. I figured the stupidity was limited to just the cut throat gil focused nature of all the players selling anything they could get their hands on including their grandmother.

Good to know it transcends all the servers.

Meyi

09-18-2011, 05:10 PM

Vortex

09-18-2011, 05:26 PM

Morier

09-18-2011, 07:42 PM

Who cares if people buy gear? Is it wrong to go buy fast food instead of cooking at home? I swear the crap people take a stance on these days amazes me.

Tamoa

09-18-2011, 08:54 PM

Where does it end? Selling atmas? Selling boss clears? Because I've seen both of those and that's just jerk s**t right there. I'm not talking about "I'll pay you to get me an atma", I'm talking about group of 8-10 people killing w/e boss and won't invite you for clear unless you pay. They lose nothing from you joining...

People wouldn't do that if other people weren't willing to pay for it.

No idea why you get so worked up over this. Does it affect you in any way if someone is shouting in Port Jeuno offering boss win/atma/whatever for a price?

A couple of things irks me: one is when someone is shouting for people for a seal NM, and has themself as only lotter on the seal they want, then everything else is 0/2. And in those cases where people join a seal NM shout group where you have to buy a somewhat expensive pop item/set, and it turns out they never did but still lot on seals.

However, none of these more or less dumb shouts mentioned throughout this thread really bother me. I'll never understand why people feel need need to start a bitchfest in shouts because of it. If you don't like the deal, don't take it. Don't join these shout groups.

Edit (still waking up, sorry):

I'm talking about group of 8-10 people killing w/e boss and won't invite you for clear unless you pay

I have to say I have never heard of that happening, at least on my server. Whenever I've been doing a zone boss for w/e reason, and someone is there asking for win, I've invited them np, and I don't know anyone who's charged the person needing the win before inviting them. Agreeing with that part, if someone is standing there @ pop spot asking to join for win only, and get told they need to pay, that's a pretty shitty thing to do.

Shiyo

09-18-2011, 09:00 PM

A couple of things irks me: one is when someone is shouting for people for a seal NM, and has themself as only lotter on the seal they want, then everything else is 0/2.
What seal NM inside abyssea requires 7 people to begin with?

Tamoa

09-18-2011, 09:03 PM

What seal NM inside abyssea requires 7 people to begin with?

You know the answer to that, all I'm saying is I see these shouts and they make me facepalm.

Modoru

09-18-2011, 09:08 PM

Technically, you're not selling the atma/item.

You're selling the chance at it, with [usually] a pre-obtained pop set that would otherwise take the buyer a long time to achieve.

Sure, I'm not okay with it [who the hell tries to market 100% R/E drops?], but people find even the weirdest ways to make money.

Zagen

09-19-2011, 12:30 AM

You're selling the chance at it, with [usually] a pre-obtained pop set that would otherwise take the buyer a long time to achieve.
A good merc group will charge you only if the item drops. I know some who charge up front but return the gil if it doesn't drop, anyways the point is if you're paying just for a chance that's a deal just as bad as locking multiple/all the good items before getting others for +1/2 items.

Tamoa

09-19-2011, 12:47 AM

Anyone paying for a chance to lot an item they want, or even paying in advance, is a moron.

Alhanelem

09-19-2011, 01:09 AM

Does anyone really use the Lock On translate term like this? I've never seen it used like that on Shiva, and it is a major abuse of the auto translate.

Nynja

09-19-2011, 01:12 AM

Inb4 'you don't have to join the shout'

Why do you ask the questions to which you know the answer?

Exxodus

09-19-2011, 01:25 AM

Does anyone really use the Lock On translate term like this? I've never seen it used like that on Shiva, and it is a major abuse of the auto translate.

On Sylph at least, lots of players use Lock On to mean that an item is not lottable, both English and Japanese speaking player's alike. I don't think that I would call it a major abuse of the auto-translate feature though.

noodles355

09-19-2011, 08:32 AM

I have to say I have never heard of that happening, at least on my server. Whenever I've been doing a zone boss for w/e reason, and someone is there asking for win, I've invited them np, and I don't know anyone who's charged the person needing the win before inviting them. Agreeing with that part, if someone is standing there @ pop spot asking to join for win only, and get told they need to pay, that's a pretty shitty thing to do.I would like to introduce you to Malekith on the Asura server. He's constantly shouting for things like:
Ironclad Pulverizer {Atma of the Razed Ruins} {Do you need it?} Items reserved.
WAR NIN THF {Can I have it?} 50k Alliance spot for atma. Free for first WAR NIN and THF.

Tamoa

09-19-2011, 08:53 AM

I would like to introduce you to Malekith on the Asura server. He's constantly shouting for things like:
Ironclad Pulverizer {Atma of the Razed Ruins} {Do you need it?} Items reserved.
WAR NIN THF {Can I have it?} 50k Alliance spot for atma. Free for first WAR NIN and THF.

Oh I'm aware, I wasn't really thinking so much of shouts, more of someone needing win and standing by pop spot asking groups for an invite just for the win, only to be told they want money for it. But yeah, those shouts you're referring to - eh, well, if people actually PAY for that then... Meh.

Meyi

09-19-2011, 10:01 AM

Does anyone really use the Lock On translate term like this? I've never seen it used like that on Shiva, and it is a major abuse of the auto translate.

They occasionally use it on Bismarck as well. It's usually a X if taken, and O if open.

Agetos

09-19-2011, 10:43 AM

the text is so small.. why..

Neonii

09-19-2011, 09:55 PM

"My group is retarded enough to think that this tool is a product of the windower team".

How about you take a mintue to re-read my post:

THIS IS NOT A WINDOWER PLUGIN.

WHAT YOU ALL WITNESSED WAS A PLAYER USING A DIFFERENT 3RD PARTY APPLICATION LIKE FFXIAPP OR WIZBOT.

You quoted me then tried to argue against me but didn't even apparantly read my post. My issue with your posts is that you accuse windower.net of offering plugins or services that are just not offered. In all cases what you saw was a player using a botting program like FFXIAPP or Wizbot. However, you slander Windower.net by suggesting this crap is available through them. It is not. You have done no research. You are starting trouble for no reason other than either 1) ignorance or 2) trolling. Sit down, shut up.

Ok if we leave the method of cheating out of it can we agree that the playing field is not even it anyone is cheating? As in somehow folks can cheat to see mobs first or out pop folks?

As for locking things I don't mind if each person involved in the party is allowed to lock one item. However, when one person locks their item and invite other folks to fight over the rest of the drops it can be a lose lose for the multiple folks wanting the same item.

I remember joining shout groups and always being outbid by the same person. I'm not saying the guy was cheating but what is the chance he would win every seal that dropped in more than one group (six rare seals in a row)? I don't group with him if he is going for the same item as me.

I think if several folks are going for the same seals and its going to be a long group as in farming several pops, the drops should rotate so no one goes home empty handed after four plus hours.

I got super annoyed when I was in a group with a lot of folks from the same ls. I was going against one of their guys for seals and they promised to get mine after he got two. But after he got his seals the group broke up. To this day I won't group with any of them anymore. I can't trust them.

Rearden

09-19-2011, 11:27 PM

I remember joining shout groups and always being outbid by the same person. I'm not saying the guy was cheating but what is the chance he would win every seal that dropped in more than one group (six rare seals in a row)? I don't group with him if he is going for the same item as me.

hahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaa

RNG

Anethia

09-20-2011, 02:04 AM

I've often asked this question, "who's the bigger moron, the moron that leads, or the moron that follows him?". It's the same thing with pay-to-win shouts. Despite the fact that I find the people who do that are unethical idiots, unfortunately they are the smart idiots. The bigger idiot is the one who actually pays for it.

In other words, the guy doing the shouting may be unethical, but the one who actually buys into it is a lazy fool. And there is a saying for that: "A fool and his money are soon parted".

Zagen

09-20-2011, 02:19 AM

In other words, the guy doing the shouting may be unethical, but the one who actually buys into it is a lazy fool. And there is a saying for that: "A fool and his money are soon parted".
Knowing how to spend the time you play in game and what your time is actually worth doesn't equate to "A fool and his money are soon parted". I'll pay a merc group 900k for 6 of a given +2 head/hands/legs/feet item I may need because I know in the time I spend to farm those same KIs and find the right jobs to do the given NM I would have made double that amount of gil if not more.

But feel free to tell yourself whatever you need to feel like you're better than me because you're getting stuff without using gil.

Vortex

09-20-2011, 02:31 AM

Knowing how to spend the time you play in game and what your time is actually worth doesn't equate to "A fool and his money are soon parted". I'll pay a merc group 900k for 6 of a given +2 head/hands/legs/feet item I may need because I know in the time I spend to farm those same KIs and find the right jobs to do the given NM I would have made double that amount of gil if not more.

But feel free to tell yourself whatever you need to feel like you're better than me because you're getting stuff without using gil.

So your solution is to "get gill" and spend it all on things you can easily solo/duo? that indeed consititues a "fool and his money" i have almost every job caped out on +2 gear 10-12) and i didn't spend a single gill on either. and half of it i even duoed. that's a sad excuse and you know it. if you don't "have the time" to play this game then you should find something else to do. because that is all this game is, Time.

Zagen

09-20-2011, 02:37 AM

So your solution is to "get gill" and spend it all on things you can easily solo/duo? that indeed consititues a "fool and his money" i have almost every job caped out on +2 gear 10-12) and i didn't spend a single gill on either. and half of it i even duoed. that's a sad excuse and you know it. if you don't "have the time" to play this game then you should find something else to do. because that is all this game is, Time.
I'd love to know your secret for getting a guaranteed full 6 of a given +2 item from said NMs in less than 3 hours. Including KI farming and NM killing with a Duo.

Edit: Having time to play the game has nothing to do with finding the best use of said time. If in 3-4hour s I can gain 3-4 million gil spending 900k of said gil to get a +2 that I might have finished in the same amount of time and still having 2.1-3.1 million gil as a profit just seems like a better use of my time.

Vortex

09-20-2011, 02:41 AM

I'd love to know your secret for getting a guaranteed full 6 of a given +2 item from said NMs in less than 3 hours. Including KI farming and NM killing with a Duo.

It's called knowing the right days to go and with right jobs, here is a hint: for best yellow procing chance, go on lightsday/darksday with a nin and whm, you will get the highest possible chance to proc yellow or. blm+dnc on other days. it's called careful planning. i duoed amalhuk on lightsday for example with nin+whm and proced yellow both times getting the 6/6 coins, of course it requires luck, but would that have happend on watersday? probably not, unless you got extreamly lucky and it was a nin proc, which has actually happend a few times.

it has worked well for me through most of my +2 low man farming, and during the days where my procing chances were lowest i would farm the KIs my self. i don't mind working for my stuff. oh and i also make gill in the process by npcing the junk in gold chests, so not only do i save gill, but i also add to it.

Zagen

09-20-2011, 02:45 AM

It's called knowing the right days to go and with right jobs, here is a hint: for best yellow procing chance, go on lightsday/darksday with a nin and whm, you will get the highest possible chance to proc yellow or. blm+dnc on other days. it's called careful planning. i duoed amalhuk on lightsday for example with nin+whm and proced yellow both times getting the 6/6 coins, of course it requires luck, but would that have happend on watersday? probably not, unless you got extreamly lucky and it was a nin proc, which has actually happend a few times.

Bolded the part that makes my method more practical. I zone, pay for drops, lot, and zone back out while having made more gil and wasted less time on luck because the merc group is usually doing 8-10+ of a given NM, brings all yellow procs for any day, and has a THF with TH 7.

Oh and did I mention I don't need to give my duo partner something beneficial this way, assuming it isn't a dualboxed character.

Vortex

09-20-2011, 02:50 AM

Bolded the part that makes my method more practical. I zone, pay for drops, lot, and zone back out while having made more gil and wasted less time on luck because the merc group is usually doing 8-10+ of a given NM, brings all yellow procs for any day, and has a THF with TH 7.

Oh and did I mention I don't need to give my duo partner something beneficial this way, assuming it isn't a dualboxed character.

Ah right, you're correct, the obvious solution is to just throw gill at everything without lifting a finger (pun intended), i mean the entire point of this game is to just sit in town and shour "i got lots of gill, who wants to work for me while i do nothing" my apologies. after all, if you can't win, don't try. right?

Your method is not "practical" it's just being lazy. which is common.

Zagen

09-20-2011, 03:04 AM

Ah right, you're correct, the obvious solution is to just throw gill at everything without lifting a finger (pun intended), i mean the entire point of this game is to just sit in town and shour "i got lots of gill, who wants to work for me while i do nothing" my apologies. after all, if you can't win, don't try. right?

Your method is not "practical" it's just being lazy. which is common.

I don't think you know what practical means...

Your method:
1) Farm KIs needed to fight X NM 2 times
2) Go on a given time frame to better benefit Light/Dark Yellow !!
3) With Luck get a full +2 set from the given NM fights.

My method:
1) Make gil, much more gil than Merc group charges instead of farming KIs and personally fighting X NM.
2) Pay a group to give me better odds at items I want than your method.

Either way we're both working, just at different things, neither is being "lazy" as my gil doesn't grow on trees.

The big differences are:
You method gets you Yellow procs for 3 jobs when going on Light/Darkday.
Mine gets me all Yellow procs regardless of day and TH.

As I said my way is more practical.

Kihrre

09-20-2011, 03:08 AM

Does anyone really use the Lock On translate term like this? I've never seen it used like that on Shiva, and it is a major abuse of the auto translate.

Seen on Phoenix server though I have not yet seen JP using the term.. then again I don't stay around Jeuno long enough. :)

Vortex

09-20-2011, 03:10 AM

I don't think you know what practical means...

Your method:
1) Farm KIs needed to fight X NM 2 times
2) Go on a given time frame to better benefit Light/Dark Yellow !!
3) With Luck get a full +2 set from the given NM fights.

My method:
1) Make gil, much more gil than Merc group charges instead of farming KIs and personally fighting X NM.
2) Pay a group to give me better odds at items I want than your method.

Either way we're both working, just at different things, neither is being "lazy" as my gil doesn't grow on trees.

The big differences are:
You method gets you Yellow procs for 3 jobs when going on Light/Darkday.
Mine gets me all Yellow procs regardless of day and TH.

As I said my way is more practical.

You're method costs you gill and all you have to do is zone in and get the drops, my method gets me the drops without spending any gill. nothing in this game worth getting is "instant" why are you arguing time issues. in the end i keep all my gill for things that i can actually use gill wisly on liek crafting or really hard to get items that needs multiple crafts etc. you're just wasting gill on seals and +2 items..which i can never understand due to how easy it is to get. if you want to call it pratical that is great.

My point of this before it goes any further is, you are wasting gill on absurdly easy to get items.

Kind of like people who buy a scroll for 40k when a mob drops it 80% of the time, and all you have to do is go kill one,

Zagen

09-20-2011, 03:24 AM

My point of this before it goes any further is, you are wasting gill on absurdly easy to get items.

My point is you're wasting time getting absurdly easy to get items when you could make much more gil in the same amount of time.

Say your method got you 6 +2 items you need and made you 1mil in NPCables/Scrolls/PIs from random gold chests (I doubt you'd get anywhere near 1mil tbh outside of Heroes zones)
My method got me those same 6 +2 items and made me 2.1-3.1mil gil...

While I spent 900k that you didn't I also made 3-4 times the amount of gil leaving me at a 2-3 times profit of time to gil ratio compared to you.

As to the NM factor, well the first time I fight a NM its fun, the 2nd+ time I fight a NM its boring because I've already done it once. Do I fight NMs more than once? Sure, but that doesn't mean its practical.

Vortex

09-20-2011, 03:35 AM

My point is you're wasting time getting absurdly easy to get items when you could make much more gil in the same amount of time.

I can make 500k+ in 3-4 hours of farming only in abyssea, making gill is not a problem, so you can throw that part out. the diffrence is i don't waste it on dumb crap, like seals and +2 items.

Say your method got you 6 +2 items you need and made you 1mil in NPCables/Scrolls/PIs from random gold chests (I doubt you'd get anywhere near 1mil tbh outside of Heroes zones)
My method got me those same 6 +2 items and made me 2.1-3.1mil gil...

See above, this includes a vision zone. if you havnt noticed gill has lost alot of value latelty. so being "stinking rich" dosn't get you anywhere unless it's people like you who throw gill at anything to get everything. or making a relic, which i have no interest in. if i REALLY wanted to, the stuff i can duo people (like you) i can just get to pay millions, so IF i wanted to i can make about 3-5 mil multiple times a night, example i can duo rani, that alone right there is huge chunk of gill. thats IF i wanted, but i don't care.

While I spent 900k that you didn't I also made 3-4 times the amount of gil leaving me at a 2-3 times profit of time to gil ratio compared to you.

900k for a seals? unless it a set of 12x2-3 900 is a huge waste if you are paying for anything less then 12, so you also proved you over pay easily.

As to the NM factor, well the first time I fight a NM its fun, the 2nd+ time I fight a NM its boring because I've already done it once. Do I fight NMs more than once? Sure, but that doesn't mean its practical.

You're ratio isn't adding up in my case because i am quite comfy with low manning and as i said above i can make lots of gill if i really needed it that badly. so not only do i not waste gill on easy to get items, i can actually make more then you do in a shorter time, based on my exp with duing specific NMS. and my knowlegde of them, so once again, no your method is not practical, at least for me.

as i said, a fool and his money.

Byrth

09-20-2011, 03:50 AM

Who cares? He can just go do Dynamis and make more than 900k in 2 hours.

Zagen

09-20-2011, 04:03 AM

900k for a seals? unless it a set of 12x2-3 900 is a huge waste if you are paying for anything less then 12, so you also proved you over pay easily.

I've said +2s and have only been talking about +2s all along dunno where you're getting seals.

You're ratio isn't adding up in my case because i am quite comfy with low manning and as i said above i can make lots of gill if i really needed it that badly. so not only do i not waste gill on easy to get items, i can actually make more then you do in a shorter time, based on my exp with duing specific NMS. and my knowlegde of them, so once again, no your method is not practical, at least for me.

as i said, a fool and his money.

You said this:

I can make 500k+ in 3-4 hours of farming only in abyssea, making gill is not a problem, so you can throw that part out. the diffrence is i don't waste it on dumb crap, like seals and +2 items.

Quick question while you're farming for that 500k are you also killing the NMs required for the KIs to get to the NM for the +2s?

And I said I make 3-4 million in those same 3-4 hours, that's a difference of 2.5-3.5 million gil. Lets add in that 900k I "wasted" I'm still ahead 1.6-2.6 million gil over you... While I agree gil has little value it still has uses and my way gets me more of it while getting the items I want.

A fool parting with money while still walking away with more money than you got out of the same time frame with the same non-monetary rewards isn't really a fool.

I've fought every NM in Abyssea pardon me for not enjoying having to fight them over and over again, at least not all of them. I know strategies for them, some depend on luck, some depend on a lot of jobs, and some can't safely/consistently be duoed.

When a merc group can get you the items you need in a fraction of the time it would take you allowing you all that extra time to make more gil than they charge that is more practical. If you are morally opposed to take that route or just don't find it the fun way of acquiring said item(s) that's fine but has nothing to do with the overall practicality of a merc group.

Mirage

09-20-2011, 04:10 AM

Some people in this thread doesn't seem to understand exactly how money works.

Vortex

09-20-2011, 04:16 AM

I've said +2s and have only been talking about +2s all along dunno where you're getting seals.

I guess i got that part mixed up considering neither are anywhere near difficult to get, nor worth wasting money on, my mistake on that. you also notice i said 12/12 when nothing actually needs 12 items, which i left in because i think it's funny and i don't know why i said that when most seals are 8/8 or 10/10 bodies.

Quick question while you're farming for that 500k are you also killing the NMs required for the KIs to get to the NM for the +2s?

No, i have been done with +2 farming for ages now, this is when i am doing mediocre stuff liek farmign dark rings or other augumented items, or hell even just farming something like an EE pop, it is not all in one zone,. and it depends on what im doing and why i was there in the 1st place.

And I said I make 3-4 million in those same 3-4 hours, that's a difference of 2.5-3.5 million gil. Lets add in that 900k I "wasted" I'm still ahead 1.6-2.6 million gil over you... While I agree gil has little value it still has uses and my way gets me more of it while getting the items I want.

Well good for you. my 900k stayed with me.

A fool parting with money while still walking away with more money than you got out of the same time frame with the same non-monetary rewards isn't really a fool.

You're spending gill on items not worth spending gill on, that imo is a fool. your view of it is obviously diffrent then mine, but to me, that is indeed a fool. or a sucker. take your pick.

I've fought every NM in Abyssea pardon me for not enjoying having to fight them over and over again, at least not all of them. I know strategies for them, some depend on luck, some depend on a lot of jobs, and some can't safely/consistently be duoed.

why do you play this then? all this game consists of is needless, nonestop grinding. of doing the same thing over and over again, you're doing something over and over to make that gill, and it is by the same defintion of fighting something over and over, unless somone is coming up to you handing you the gill. (we know what that is) only diffrence is i'm not spending any gill doing the same thing you are doing.

When a merc group can get you the items you need in a fraction of the time it would take you allowing you all that extra time to make more gil than they charge that is more practical. If you are morally opposed to take that route or just don't find it the fun way of acquiring said item(s) that's fine but has nothing to do with the overall practicality of a merc group.

There is that time thing again, seriously all this game is is TIME, weither it be by my working for my crap or you working for your gill to have others like me work for you to get you your gear. stop with the time factor because it is an irrelavent element to this dicussion, i doubt anyone just plays this game to stand in town and do nothing.

oh and no i do not find it fun giving somone money to do somethign i can easily do my self. so yea i am really opposed to this sort of thing, but to each his own. but thanks to people like you. i can also take advantage of making lots of gill by finding somone who will buy anything, such as your self. so really it works out in the end for both parts. you like spending gill, i like making it while saving as much as possible, to spend on things worth spending it on.

i don't care what you do with your gill honestly. but you'll have to agree that people pay insane, dumb prices for things not worth it, like vivid strap +1 selling for 8m+ and it's benefits are no where near worth that much, etc.

Zagen

09-20-2011, 04:29 AM

I don't think you understand how time = gil works. What exactly is worth wasting gil on? I mean heck I hope you craft all of your consumables or any of your non R/E gear because really they aren't "worth" wasting gil on... Oh and farm all of the items required for the synth because you'd be "wasting gil" if you don't farm the items. I can apply your logic to anything that doesn't make it practical logic.

The only real reason I play this game is to hang out with friends who don't actually live near me and help them with stuff they want to do, or team up and do something that sounds fun to all of us.

Vortex

09-20-2011, 04:33 AM

Zagen

09-20-2011, 04:48 AM

I edited my last post at the end, you should understand now, this is just me personally.
I've actually known all along it was your personal opinions fueling your stance while my point was merely on practicality that's why i referenced a few times how the fun factor, moral factor, and even the value factor (don't think i mentioned this directly more implied) have nothing to do with practicality.

Personally I agree a lot of things have ridiculous prices for the actual benefit and somethings are very cheap in value (+2s offered by the merc group on my server falls into this category for me).

Calling someone a fool/moron/idiot etc. like the person I initially responded to did for making a practical decision annoys me because those insults are thrown around because of personal feelings and have nothing to do with the decision.

Monchat

09-20-2011, 05:02 AM

this argument reminds me of the days Rangers levelled woodworking to craf their arrows, mages levelled cooking to craft their drinks and so on... lol. Or fishermen who thought real fisher get their 10k moat carps on their own, and nowaday, real DD get their empyreands without breweing. lol. Fishing 10,000 carps teached you how to fish moat carps, nothing else. Killing 75 draguas tells you how to kill dragua, nothing else. Every abyssea NM gets boring after you killed it like 5 times.

Anyone serious about the game knows the most expensive parameter in the game is time, whether you are hardcor or not. What is my time worth? What's that other player's time worth? It depends on each individual. The best way to make money in the game atm for me is dynamis. I'm getting 300 coins ( 3millions) for 2 hours of my work and with 2 players + alts, so my time is worth: 1.5Million per hour.

Why would I bother camp sisyphus for example, and get one drop every 3 NMs with TH8 ( 1 hour) when I could do dynamis and buy 10 pops in the same time.

Why would a crafter gather all his mats through farming, mining, fishing, etc, when they are massively available on the AH?NPC vendors and he can easilly fund his craft with X BCNM?

Its called economy. One player finds its profitable to farm random abyssea POP items and AH them at the end of the day, and another player is really happy to buy it from them because his abyssea time is too precious to waste it farming. Etc.

Buying r/e item/titles/etc has been part off FF economy for long ( BB items yo).

Meyi

09-20-2011, 05:19 AM

Some people in this thread doesn't seem to understand exactly how money works.

I have to wonder if these people also grow all of their food in their gardens and raise sheep to turn their wool into clothing. You know, wouldn't want to waste money on things you can do yourself!

It also reminds me of the people who got angry at crafters for buying craft items instead of farming them themselves.

Mirage

09-20-2011, 05:20 AM

I have to wonder if these people also grow all of their food in their gardens and raise sheep to turn their wool into clothing. You know, wouldn't want to waste money on things you can do yourself!

Yeah, specialization is overrated. It's not like that's what enabled human societies to get where they are, or anything!

Toggles

09-20-2011, 08:51 AM

No idea why you get so worked up over this. Does it affect you in any way if someone is shouting in Port Jeuno offering boss win/atma/whatever for a price?
I'm just an intense person who comes off as even more intense. Trust me, I'm not that worked about it, it's all relative.

About it affecting me, we're kind of talking about different things at this point because of the tangent trail from my OP. I made this thread mostly for three reasons.
1. I've been leaving groups far more than I'd like because of the old bait and switch.
2. Reading stupid 'screw you over' shouts and the ensuing flame wars is getting old; blocking shouts all together obviously isn't feasible. Blist can only hold so many names.
3.Lastly but mainly, I was hoping that there's at least one server out there where this stuff either doesn't exist(virtually) or happens with far less regularity.

Why do you ask the questions to which you know the answer?
You completely missed my main question which I asked at least twice in the OP.(tip:it's at the beginning and end of the normal sized text) I mean, really, I asked a bunch of questions besides my main one yet all you focused on is the 'question' I didn't ask but had the answer already mentioned. Are we playing jeopardy? I never asked "what do you do/how do you deal with these stupid shouts" which is exactly why I said inb4 yet $*#!@s keep mentioning it, amazing!

Dare I bring up the term 'strawman' here. lol
*duck and cover*