Another Forum bug/error

[Ihnako]

Most player won't notice but there's an error in your time coordinate for every time you give based on the EU location.

Since GMT is an old time coordinate, used before daylight saving times where introduced and officialy not longer used therefore.

Please use the offical time coordinate UTC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time

[Arcon]

Most player won't notice but there's an error in your time coordinate for every time you give based on the EU location.

Since GMT is an old time coordinate, used before daylight saving times where introduced and officialy not longer used therefore.

Please use the offical time coordinate UTC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coordinated_Universal_Time

That's not correct. GMT = UTC for pretty much every relevant purpose, including DST. And there is no "official" use, UTC is just encouraged by many people and organizations. Also, it has nothing to do with EU, but not entirely sure what you meant by that.

Not saying they shouldn't use UTC, but it doesn't matter at all for 99.999% of users. The other 0.001% is you. They should, however, let users pick proper timezones. GMT+X can vary for up to 1hr depending on the exact location within that margin.

[Ihnako]

The problem is - there is no GMT since GMT and UTC share the same time coordinate but not the same time.
At least every software/hardware/what ever that uses GMT instead of UTC is simply wrong.
GMT is a term back when UK was ruling the seven seas. Beside the facts:
UTC is derived from International Atomic Time (TAI), which is a coordinate time scale tracking notional proper time on the rotating surface of the Earth (the geoid). ...
Because of time dilation, a standard clock not on the geoid, or in rapid motion, will not maintain synchronicity with UTC. Therefore, telemetry from clocks with a known relation to the geoid is used to provide UTC when required, on locations such as those of spacecraft. ...
For most common and legal-trade purposes, the fractional second difference between UTC and UT (GMT) is inconsequentially small, so UTC is often called GMT (for instance, by the BBC).
So we learned UTC != GMT but often called GMT but still not GMT.
And for a software used all around the globe the termn GMT is simpy wrong.
You also won't say pi is 3,14.

Also why are the NA times given in PDT and PST when they could use PST?
For the EU based service it would be BST and GMT then?

[Arcon]

Not sure why it upsets you so much. Of course UTC =/= GMT, otherwise they wouldn't have different names. What I said was:

GMT = UTC for pretty much every relevant purpose, including DST.

And I stand by that. No person would ever notice the difference between the two. UTC is the "correct" time, if you care about the millisecond at which a message was posted on this board. But no one cares, not even you, you just seem to have a philosophical disagreement with the choice.

While the term may come from that era, it doesn't mean that it suggests that political standing. Saying \pi = 3.14 is worse, because it actually affects relevant calculations. This doesn't affect anything, so it can't be compared. In a few more centuries, the two will be a few seconds apart, then it will start becoming relevant (although still no one will care), right now it does nothing. It may be wrong, but it doesn't affect anyone and it doesn't need to be addressed. If there's anything else at all that they could be doing, even recoloring a DRG's wyvern, it would be time better spent than fixing this.

[Ihnako]

It does affecting everything cause GMT doesn't exist anymore.
Everything that states GMT is simply wrong cause GMT meand UK winter/standard time and the UK isn't the middle of the world anymore. Therefore it would and is relevant to change it to a common standard and that's UTC.

[Arcon]

It does affecting everything cause GMT doesn't exist anymore.
Everything that states GMT is simply wrong cause GMT meand UK winter/standard time and the UK isn't the middle of the world anymore. Therefore it would and is relevant to change it to a common standard and that's UTC.

GMT not existing anymore (which is false) isn't evidence that it affects anything. As I said, you just have a philosophical disagreement. No one cares.

[Ihnako]

UTC is the only correct time zone in case you want to give a common relevant time. POINT
GMT = UK standard time. Right now Greenwich Mean Time is UTC+1 or to be precise BST cause Ireland has GMT.
So every time given as GMT while daylight saving is in effect is simply wrong cause Greenwich isn't located in Ireland.

[Arcon]

I think you misunderstand something about the concept of GMT. GMT (just as UTC) is independant of DST. In winter, Greenwich is in GMT, in summer, it's in GMT+1. GMT is just a name, nothing more. It doesn't indicate the time for a certain town, nor does it suggest Great Britain as the center of the world.


Right now Greenwich Mean Time is UTC+1

That quote is incorrect. GMT is never UTC+1. Again, GMT is not the time in Greenwich, it's the time in Greenwich in winter. In summer, Greenwich runs in GMT+1, and in UTC+1.

GMT and UTC are the same with the exception of leap seconds to account for physical anomalies regarding the earth's rotation. UTC is based on physical conditions rather than arbitrary conventions, as GMT is. However, the convention wasn't entirely arbitrary, in that it tried to simulate (although by arbitrary intervals) the earth's rotation. When the second was defined in terms of natural phenomena, it was tried to approach 1/86400 th of the duration of earth's rotation around its own axis, they weren't quite as accurate as they've hoped. Also, they didn't take into account back then, that the earth's rotation is changing, due to several factors. So eventually (a few millenia down the road), our daytime would have shifted by an hour or so. UTC is trying to correct that.

Right now, however, the difference is negligible. The difference between UTC and GMT is less than a second as of now. DST does not at all depend on either of them, as it can be (and is) applied to both of them. So, again, while UTC is arguably the more correct way to do it, it is not, by any means, official, and it is not, by any means, necessary on non-time-critical applications, such as message boards. If you feel it's worth complaining, good luck with that.

[Ihnako]

That quote is incorrect. GMT is never UTC+1. Again, GMT is not the time in Greenwich, it's the time in Greenwich in winter. In summer, Greenwich runs in GMT+1, and in UTC+1.
That quote is wrong since GMT is based on a certain location. Using the termn GMT for UTC and reffering to it does have a huge impact.
#1 Not all countries use DST
#2 Not all countries that use DST switch to DST at the same time.

But back to facts...

... Saying "GMT" often implies either UTC or UT1 when used within informal or casual contexts. In technical contexts, usage of "GMT" is avoided; the unambiguous terminology "UTC" or "UT1" is preferred. ...
So the fact that we practicaly and technicaly using a world wide opperating and accessible service the term GMT has to be avoided cause we'r not talking about a causal context.

And btw. it's 8:12 A.M. UTC

[Arcon]

That quote is wrong since GMT is based on a certain location.

It's based on a location and season, same as UTC. It's based on Greenwich in winter, not Greenwich in summer. Greenwich in summer is GMT+1. That is a fact, look it up. UTC was designed so it coincided with GMT. It was modeled after GMT.


Using the termn GMT for UTC and reffering to it does have a huge impact.
#1 Not all countries use DST
#2 Not all countries that use DST switch to DST at the same time.

There's more. Not all countries switch by an hour, some only by 30min. And some countries switch in several intervals, not just twice. And none of that matters, because all of that applies to both GMT and UTC. Daylight savings has nothing at all to do with either. It just means all countries push their times back or forth by a certain amount during certain periods, whether they call it GMT+1 or UTC+1.


So the fact that we practicaly and technicaly using a world wide opperating and accessible service the term GMT has to be avoided cause we'r not talking about a causal context.

Again, I'm not even disagreeing with you, they should be using UTC. But it does not matter, no one will notice any difference, because the absolute only time difference between the two is in the subsecond range (at any given time of the year, at any given position on the face of the earth).


And btw. it's 8:12 A.M. UTC

It's 9:47AM GMT.

[katz]

if you asked the majority of people what is UTC time they wouldnt have a clue. If you ask the majority of people what is GMT time they could tell you the +/- of their current time. Just because the world labels something different doesnt mean people will use it. For the fraction of a second that it matters to some scientists, I think most people will forever call UTC GMT because thats what they understand. "To call a rose by any other name, still makes it smell so sweet"

[Ihnako]

It's 06:12 P.M. UTC (since there is no GMT except you reffer to London/Greenwitch time in a causal/informational context otherwise use the coresponding naming for the timezone)

[Arcon]

It's 06:12 P.M. UTC (since there is no GMT except you reffer to London/Greenwitch time in a causal/informational context otherwise use the coresponding naming for the timezone)

There is GMT. It's now 9:05PM GMT. It's 10:05PM GMT+1. It's 11:05PM GMT+2. It has nothing to do with context. There is no timezone police that goes around and enforces people to use UTC, that's wishful thinking on your part. GMT exists, and while less scientifically stable, and may at some point be deprecated, it is widely used still to this day. It exists all around the world and does not relate to the UK or indicate an UK-centric view.

It's like saying yards and inches don't exist, because they're not part of the international standard. And technically, it would be easier and more convenient if everyone would use standard measurement units, but saying other people are wrong using those is fascist and nothing more. And in this case, it's even more meaningless, because the two standards are pretty much the same.

[Ihnako]

Yes it is an UK-centric view. And it is a view that spreads an error.
To say it again - there is no GMT right now. With GMT you reffer to London/Greenwich what is actualy at BST.
So in case you say it's 09:05PM GMT it's actualy 08:05PM UTC+1 or 09:05PM BST. That's the point.