Stage2 Ochain/Daudarbla

[Masamunai]

Hello,

My 1st post here, but i don't know where to post this.

Currently 2nd stage of the Empyrean Ochain/Daudarbla requires 75 Colorless Souls from Tier3 VNMs (Brulo, Maere or Ogopogo).

I discovered this stage is by far the hardest of all empyrean stages because of a single flaw in the system i would like to report:
The color change of the colorful Demilune abyssite.

To elaborate, there is currently 0 incentive for empyrean upgraders to team up, since this color change occurs ONLY for the one person who managed to claim the Tier2 VNM Koios/Chione/Gamayun.
Direct consequence, upgraders are competing each other and it's not rare to see like 6 duos or trios (or even solo THF @ Conflux#2 Abyssea-Altepa) raging to even claim even 1 single Tier2...
Add to that, a color change rate of about 30%? (im not sure, eyeballed).

All this added together makes this stage basically like if required TRIPLE the initial amount required (i.e. 75*3=225 colorless souls).

A solution would be simply to make that color change possible for everyone in party who claimed the Tier2 Koios/Chione/Gamayun.

[Shiyo]

How would that fix anything? You wouldn't want to team up and compete for T3 pops would you?

[Masamunai]

I'm not even speaking about T3 pops... that's all the problem lol.

That would fix because then upgraders would just team up together for the Tier2 Titan/Garuda/Shiva, instead of competing each other.

I have no problem regarding the T3s. i'm ranting ONLY about the Colorful Demilune Abyssite system.

[Rearden]

Trade one bottleneck for another? Doesn't really make sense.

Also there's a thread about this with some good information already

[Masamunai]

a ok which Thread please direct me ?

For fixing the T3 bottleneck solution would be to do the same as current Empyrean NMs: make 3 of them pop in entire zone.

[Arcon]

Trade one bottleneck for another? Doesn't really make sense.

That's not what this would do. It would trade one bottleneck, for a wider bottleneck, since the conversion rate is still only ~25%. So while more people would get T3 triggers, you could do 3~4x T3 in the time it would take you to do one at the current rate. It's not perfect, but it would help.

However, the system itself would not make sense, unless everyone in the party had a T2 already. But then it would also make sense for everyone's abyssite to break, etc. There have been better suggestions in the millions of other threads about this.

[Rearden]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/9006-dev1015-Still-no-Abyssea-VNM-adjustments-still-a-major-point-of-congestion

[MarkovChain]

Currently 2nd stage of the Empyrean Ochain/Daudarbla requires 75 Colorless Souls from Tier3 VNMs (Brulo, Maere or Ogopogo).
.

Personnally I found this less annoying than farming 50 chloris buds. I do about 10 souls in one evening, but of course not solo. We camp two tier 2 at a time, and we avoid the overcamped one which is uleguerand so we mostly get 1 drop per kill. I've seen plenty of soloers do it too but only in altepa since it's an easy kill. I was surprised that I didn't have CC last weekeend during JP prime.

[Masamunai]

er Markov... this is Stage2 so don't compare Ochain/Daud Stage2 with Stage1 of other empyrean...

I got lucky this morning with only 1 competitor to claim Koios, but after 120mins i exited with 0/5...
In comparison, can farm all KIs for Sobek on 3 ppl including myself with much higher competition.
If could team up with that other competitor, not only the kill would be faster, but we both would have chance for the color change... but no of course he refused...

In my case i can't camp more than 1 T2 at a time since my ls has a rule "1 empy per person" and i got already a Ukonvasara. In other words, i'm solo.

[MarkovChain]

You are solo so that's another problem, you can only camp Koios and when it finally upgrade you have to poke your LS. I usually camp Koios and mdk camps Gamayun, and we usually have no problem upgrading to colorfull abyssite on 6 char (takes less than 1 hour) and then getting out tier 2 upgraded within the evening. Generally since mdk has no CC in grauberg, we have 2 brulo 4 maere. It's not as bad as you think. The only issue with this is if your CC are gimp soloers like BSTs and take forever to kill. Totally eyeballing the upgrade rate to emerald is around 1/4-1/5.

[Shiyo]

One emp per person? o_O

Also what is a MDK/CC?

[Arcon]

er Markov... this is Stage2 so don't compare Ochain/Daud Stage2 with Stage1 of other empyrean...

You compared first, he only said it's not quite as annoying as some other empyrean trials. And in all honestly, I don't I can't in good conscience disagree with him, as much as I'd like to. Doing both Ochain and Ukon, Glavoid farm and kill annoys me a lot more than VNMs, even if it doesn't take as long if done correctly. Maybe it's also a matter of preference, I'm more of a casual player, and VNMs are a lot easier to approach casually than other empyrean weapons, even if it takes longer (which is a given with a casual approach anyway).

[MarkovChain]

For vnm you can also afk every 10 minutes and for normal empy you generally do it non stop so it's less annoying. For chloris for instance you have a 10 minute NM to kill and you have to proc it. Needless to say, if you didn't bring the correct jobs for 100% proc you are boned. I think it took me and mdk maybe 2 weeks to get both chloris done, not sure. We can farm 75 souls in ~ 1 week with 6 chars.

[Kimble]

is it really that hard to bring a NIN WAR and WHM?

Galvoid and Chloris are really not bad at all to farm. No where near as bad as VNM,

[Shiyo]

I don't see how souls can ever be compared to any other emp weapon path.

It's very easy/simple to farm chloris KI's and glavoid KI's, it simply takes TIME, and there's multiple options to acquire the KI's. For colorless souls, sometimes you can go days without getting many(or any)souls at all, that never happens with any other emp :/

All NM's camped? Np - > Cleave for gold chests

What do you do when all T3 Nm's are camped? Or t2's? You afk...

[Kimble]

I dunno, the T2 in Grauberg is almost always uncamped, even if it it, its usually just people that want seals, lol.

Never really ran into a lot of comp for popping t3s. Even if I did, it was like 1-2 other people and I can just as easily try and pop like they are.

[Arcon]

is it really that hard to bring a NIN WAR and WHM?

Yes.


Galvoid and Chloris are really not bad at all to farm. No where near as bad as VNM,

Your opinion. It takes a lot more effort both to farm and to fight. VNMs is mostly AFK time with a little bit of paying attention every few minutes.

[Masamunai]

I usually camp Koios [...]. Totally eyeballing the upgrade rate to emerald is around 1/4-1/5.

And erm... arenot you raging after seeing other upgraders outclaiming you at popping Koios ? It's in that case when i start thinking "wtf why we fucking can't team up like for seals..."
Gamayun isnot better either: i can solo her with my BST (but takes long time compared to THF on koios) but at grauberg it's not solo campers there is, but generally duos trios, meaning they outclaims you 2-3x more than @ Altepa. Even worse: since they are already duoing/trioing, after getting color change they go right at Maere and you see them again less than 30mins later camping against you on Gamayun...
I didnot try Chione yet but i m guessing it's worse than Koios/Gamayun :s

Btw Thanks Rearden for the link, reading.

[Shiyo]

In the time it takes you to upgrade ONE t1 - > t2 - > t3, you probably could have finished an entire chloris/glavoid pop set <_< If you have multiple people, probably multiple pop sets.

Glavoid and chloris took ~2-3 days to finish, while doing colorless soul trials for an ochain took almost TWO weeks.

[Masamunai]

In the time it takes you to upgrade ONE t1 - > t2 - > t3, you probably could have finished an entire chloris/glavoid pop set <_< If you have multiple people, probably multiple pop sets.

Glavoid and chloris took ~2-3 days to finish, while doing colorless soul trials for an ochain took almost TWO weeks.

Wow that's bit extreme XD but you got the general idea of what i meant /nod.

[Kimble]

Yes.



Your opinion. It takes a lot more effort both to farm and to fight. VNMs is mostly AFK time with a little bit of paying attention every few minutes.

Hell, even if the zone is heavily camped, you can SOLO gold box farm there for KIs, you cant do that with VNMs.

[Masamunai]

Rated up Zumi thread, feel free to make it explode 100.

Only reply from Camate i found on this topic is about T3 colorsouls droprates... nothing about congestion @ T2s.

[Arcon]

In the time it takes you to upgrade ONE t1 - > t2 - > t3, you probably could have finished an entire chloris/glavoid pop set <_< If you have multiple people, probably multiple pop sets.

Glavoid and chloris took ~2-3 days to finish, while doing colorless soul trials for an ochain took almost TWO weeks.

One way to see it. Another is, that getting a T2 trig is, on average, a 20min effort. killing a T2 VNM takes 2min. Upgrade rate ~25% means 8min actual play time for a T3. 10min kill time for T3 (including search for it) places you at 40min play time for 1.5 souls. So the actual effort invested in obtaining the required souls is about 35 hours.


Hell, even if the zone is heavily camped, you can SOLO gold box farm there for KIs, you cant do that with VNMs.

Again, that costs definitely a lot more time to do solo, especially since it will only give you one KI. For VNMs on the other hand it wouldn't matter if you're solo or trio or in an alliance with outside people giving their emotional support. Again, it rewards casual play as opposed to continuous mass-play. Just a different way to approach it. Overall, you will need more time to upgrade a harp/shield than a weapon, but the kind of investment is different, and not everyone objects to it.

[MarkovChain]

In the time it takes you to upgrade ONE t1 - > t2 - > t3, you probably could have finished an entire chloris/glavoid pop set <_< If you have multiple people, probably multiple pop sets.

Glavoid and chloris took ~2-3 days to finish, while doing colorless soul trials for an ochain took almost TWO weeks.

I'll finish my 75th soul tonight and started last saturday.

[Kristal]

I don't see how souls can ever be compared to any other emp weapon path.

It's very easy/simple to farm chloris KI's and glavoid KI's, it simply takes TIME, and there's multiple options to acquire the KI's. For colorless souls, sometimes you can go days without getting many(or any)souls at all, that never happens with any other emp :/

All NM's camped? Np - > Cleave for gold chests

What do you do when all T3 Nm's are camped? Or t2's? You afk...

T3 VNMs 'simply take TIME' as well, just in a different form. (And given the luck-based nature of chest farming, can take a LOT longer..)

SE is increasing the conversion from T1 to T2 pop, so it should be easier to get T3 pops faster.

[Rearden]

Yeah sadly since PChan isn't trolling I'll agree with him, it took me 1 day for plates, 6 for souls and 9h for horns.

[Masamunai]

ewwww... i'm honestly amazed at you guys' performances. o.O

Especially this quote:

Another is, that getting a T2 trig is, on average, a 20min effort. killing a T2 VNM takes 2min. Upgrade rate ~25% means 8min actual play time for a T3. 10min kill time for T3 (including search for it) places you at 40min play time for 1.5 souls. So the actual effort invested in obtaining the required souls is about 35 hours

You are way off with some of your estimations: killing takes 2 min if it's Koios solo or at least duo on Chione/Gamayun, agreed... but 20mins effort for a color change on average is lol. I would apply same rule as for HNMs in old Kings camps: multiply any % by 10%, in our case that would translates into 25%*10% = 2.5% ie 1/40 from an heavy camped T2.
Maybe more like 1/30 (3.33%) from a less camped T2. So at a rate of 1 T2 pop each 10mins, with an average 3% chance to color change accounting for competition, an upgrader needs actually 100%/3% = 33 T2 pops at minimum, ie 330mins which is much more realistic than 20mins... sadly.
This morning for example: 120mins for only 5 claims @ Koios vs one solo competitor, 0/5 on color change. At grauberg is much worse and i can't even imagine @ Chione...

In comparison, it takes me (solo) half that time to get all KIs for a Sobek pop set, with comparable competition.

[Frost]

H2H Trial: (Same trial basically for Polearm & Scythe)

Trial 68: Tumbling Truffle x3
Trial 69: Helldiver x3
Trial 70: Orctrap x3

Trial 71: Intulo x4
Trial 72: Ramponneau x4
Trial 73: Keeper of Halidom x4
Trial 74: Shoggoth x6
Trial 75: Farruca Fly x6
Trial 1138: Chesma x8

Trial 1139: Two-leaf Chloris Bud x50
>Chloris x25 - 50x
>> Ophanim 25x - 50x
>>> Halimede 25x - 50x
>>> Vetehinen 25x - 50x
>> Treble Noctules
>>> Cannered Noz 25x - 52,793,472x
>> Hedetet 25x - 50x
>>> Gancanagh 25x - 50x
>> Chukwa 25x - 50x

Trial 1909: Ulhuadshi's Fang x50
> Ulhuadshi 25x - 50x
>> Amun 25x - 50x
>> Pallid Percy 25x - 50x

Trial 2307: Dragua's Scale x75
> Dragua 25x - 50x
>> Hazhdiha

Shield:

Step 1: Buy Level 85 Sheild
Trial 4397: Iron Plates x50
> Iron Giant 25x - 50x
>> Tabilla, Teekesselchen, or Koghatu 25x - 50x

Trial 4398: Colorless Souls x75
> Colorless Souls x75
>> Brulo or Maere 75x; or Ogopogo 38 - 75x
>>> Koios or Gamayun 75x - 750x; or Chione 38x - 750x
>>>> Tier I VNM 38x - 30,000x

Trial 4399: Azdaja's Horn x75
> Azdaja x 38x - 75x
>> Deelgeed x 38x - 75x


H2H:
40 - 90 hours (with ZERO competition for pop NMs, and assuming all the NMs pop between 1- 3 hours)

Shield:
50 Hours assuming 1/1 color changes on all VNMs, and and 2/2 drops on all VNMs, Giants, and dragon; under optimal conditions spending no more than 5 minutes per fight.
6,000 Hours (+/- 500 hours) assuming the more realistic 1/10 color change on Tier II's, and the 1/40 color Change on the Tier I's; with 100% single drops.

90 hours max versus 6,000...
I may be an optimist, but the ranges are a bit off, 50 hour range between min/max versus 5,950 hours between min/max...

Square really needs to hire people to play on the production servers to actually evaluate the game, and make adjustments based on reality. Instead of doing everything on paper, and ignoring external variables like time, competition, and "Real Life".

[Rearden]

It took me 63 hours to 3box an Ochain and I had absolutely terrible change rates, less than averages people have parsed at BG. 6000 is a strawman argument.

[Arcon]

You are way off with some of your estimations: killing takes 2 min if it's Koios solo or at least duo on Chione/Gamayun, agreed... but 20mins effort for a color change on average is lol.

2min for every NM, Koios I can kill in 1min.


I would apply same rule as for HNMs in old Kings camps: multiply any % by 10%, in our case that would translates into 25%*10% = 2.5% ie 1/40 from an heavy camped T2.

Bla. Competition doesn't factor into my calculations at all, because if you don't pop it, you don't have to kill it. Read what I said how the time was calculated.


H2H:
40 - 90 hours (with ZERO competition for pop NMs, and assuming all the NMs pop between 1- 3 hours)

Shield:
50 Hours assuming 1/1 color changes on all VNMs, and and 2/2 drops on all VNMs, Giants, and dragon; under optimal conditions spending no more than 5 minutes per fight.
6,000 Hours (+/- 500 hours) assuming the more realistic 1/10 color change on Tier II's, and the 1/40 color Change on the Tier I's; with 100% single drops.

Making stuff up isn't like you. 6000 hours? 1/10? 1/40? 100% single? None of that comes close to the true values. And your H2H values are also quite far off. 40h is the pre-Abyssea stage alone (if you're lucky, not on average).

[scaevola]

er Markov... this is Stage2 so don't compare Ochain/Daud Stage2 with Stage1 of other empyrean...


I think he means to say stage 2 of Daruchain isn't as frustrating and inconvenient as a Tahrongi Empyrean. I don't know if I agree with that, but I don't think it matters which is really worse because they're both way worse than anything else.

Also, if you're getting 1/40 color change on T1>T2, why are you doing that in the Heroes zone? If it's that awful, surely it's worth your time to come partake of the 1/3ish change rate I see in La Theine.

[Frost]

Arcon, with all due respect, please tell me you understand the difference between "Best Case Scenario" and "Worst Case Scenario"...

Rearden, Please go look up "Staw man Argument"... And the next time you decide to use a buzzword, please use the right one.... At best I possibly did a formal syllogistic fallacy, but only if I inferred that to do a shield would take 6,000 hours... Instead I gave a range based on likely scenarios....

Good day sir....

[scaevola]

Arcon, with all due respect, please tell me you understand the difference between "Best Case Scenario" and "Worst Case Scenario"...

Rearden, Please go look up "Staw man Argument"... And the next time you decide to use a buzzword, please use the right one.... At best I possibly did a formal syllogistic fallacy, but only if I inferred that to do a shield would take 6,000 hours... Instead I gave a range based on likely scenarios....

Good day sir....

So, were your numbers based on the idea that with H2H, you can, at the end of the day, always proc red to get progress, and with Daruchain you can't, making the worst case scenario much worse due to the unreliability?

Because that's definitely true and there isn't a soul (nyuk nyuk) who'd argue red shouldn't upgrade abyssite, but going with such an unrealistic example (1/40 color change? really?) only looks disingenuous.

[Arcon]

Arcon, with all due respect, please tell me you understand the difference between "Best Case Scenario" and "Worst Case Scenario"...


6,000 Hours (+/- 500 hours) assuming the more realistic [..]

This was what put me off. I thought you meant that that's closer to the average than the other values, which, from, by now extensive, experience, I can't possibly agree with. I can do some parses later, but from eyeballing I'd say 1/10 conversion rate on T1->T2 is already pessimistic. 1/5 ~ 1/4 for T2->T3 conversion is, I believe, accurate enough.

[Frost]

Gotcha, yeah misplacement... That was suppose to highlight the dismal nature of the change rates, but not define the extreme as the norm.

My bad.

Edit: My change rates havent' been that great for Tier 1's personally, I usually get about 1:12 (if I'm lucky) on T1 > T2, but phenominal luck on T2 . T3 (Hate to brag but typically 1:1) but I know people working on Ochain (whom I'm helping) that have been getting some seriously bullshit change rates.

[Maacha]

This was what put me off. I thought you meant that that's closer to the average than the other values, which, from, by now extensive, experience, I can't possibly agree with. I can do some parses later, but from eyeballing I'd say 1/10 conversion rate on T1->T2 is already pessimistic. 1/5 ~ 1/4 for T2->T3 conversion is, I believe, accurate enough.

I haven't bothered trying to start on my Harp yet because of the VNM problem. When I was trying to get Serpentes Sabots, I would quite often go 1/10+ on colorless to colorful upgrades, sometimes going as high as 20+. Competition for the tier 2 and tier 3 is also a big issue; I live in the JP timezone, so they are always camped by multiple groups whenever I'm online. Since I'm an English speaker in the JP timezone, I end up doing most of my things alone (dual/triboxing when needed).

If they aren't willing to give us multiple copies of each tier 2 or tier 3 in each zone, how about adding Souls to the tier 3 in the other 6 Abyssea zones to spread out the demand? The difference in strength of tier 3s in the older zones really isn't an issue anymore, people are already soloing/duoing the tier 3s in Heroes zones.

[Masamunai]

Bla. Competition doesn't factor into my calculations at all
You should, because it's the reality of anyone wanting to pass that stage. Also it what turns that stage from "ok" in theory to "horrible" in reality.


I can do some parses later, but from eyeballing I'd say 1/10 conversion rate on T1->T2 is already pessimistic. 1/5 ~ 1/4 for T2->T3 conversion is, I believe, accurate enough.
Yes in theory that should be something like that, but then gotta account for competition, which means multiplying those numbers with a reduction depending on how heavy competition is at a given time. In the example of this morning i claimed basically 1/2 pops within the 120mins span. So with your numbers, my chances to change color are : 1/5~1/4 * 1/2 = 1/10~1/8, and this vs a single competitor. You can imagine if you had heavier competition you would multiply by more than 1/2...

+1 for Frost conclusion:

Square really needs to hire people to play on the production servers to actually evaluate the game, and make adjustments based on reality. Instead of doing everything on paper, and ignoring external variables like time, competition, and "Real Life".

[Rearden]

Your numbers for H2H trial are low and are false in the eyes of your opposition (H2H) as to Ochain. While you aren't arguing with anyone in particular, you are arguing with a thing and that is your subject.

Saying it would take 250 days isn't itself false either, but to even present that as a logical option infers you are playing up your argument for the sake umph factor.

While doing this, again, you are disregarding that H2H actually takes a large amount of "time" to complete and its own range can vary as drastically (though not quite as drastically as the made up spectrum of 250days) to complete.

It's not the most solid definition of straw man, but as I read it it fits. In either case, the only realistic part of your post was that SE ignores external variables, though your reasoning is off. I can't say why they do what they do because in the end it doesn't "fly" for most people and is only enhanced by the fact that this game doesn't have a lot of life left, especially with what we're being offered.

Other examples would be Relics (Dyna revamp) or Mythics. The inordinate amount of time it has taken to complete these throughout the ages demands a lack of interest for the other parties that would have to be involved in creating said items. There should be difficulty as there SHOULD be difficulty for Brochain/Dardaubla as well.

In the case of the latter, the options you have are difficult mobs vs. time to complete vs. limiting spawns (again controlling time, but this factor is enhanced by the # of people desiring said items but can also make the trials really easy). In abyssea, they aren't left with many options from that list.

Lastly, there is only one "difficult" stage of Brochain/Dardaubla and that is the one in question, they have addressed two issues a) increasing change rates and b) Maere/Brulo drop rates being broken still

When these are fixed and it's still bad, then you guys will have a new argument. As it stands they can only fix what they fix when they fix it. (And I largely find SE to be incompetent with regards to what the game needs, but in this case they've at least addressed some of the bigger issues)

[Masamunai]

there is only one "difficult" stage of Brochain/Dardaubla and that is the one in question, they have addressed two issues a) increasing change rates and b) Maere/Brulo drop rates being broken still
When these are fixed and it's still bad, then you guys will have a new argument

Er... did i miss something but i only seen the b) from a Camate's quote, but where the a) comes from?

[Rearden]

There were two posts in that thread from the DEVs, one addressing change rates and the other addressing drop rates.

[Zagen]

but going with such an unrealistic example (1/40 color change? really?) only looks disingenuous.
I've gone 1/54 before on T1 > T2, granted that's not an average just the worst I've done, by the same token I've also gone 1/1, I'm just pointing out his example is possible.

As to the OP I'd love to have multiple VNMs as well but I can see why it is 1 only every 10-15 min, instead of killing 12 different NMs X times you get 5 the number of different monsters is less but the difficulty is artificially increased when competition is factored making them comparable.

[Arcon]

You should, because it's the reality of anyone wanting to pass that stage. Also it what turns that stage from "ok" in theory to "horrible" in reality.

No, I do not, and no it does not. That was the whole point of my argument. I was saying that competition doesn't bother me at all. I'm not out to have my shield in three days. I'm totally fine with needing six months to complete it, because I play as I go along. And if the competition claims it, it means I can go back to doing something else while I wait on repop, so I don't care about that.

The entire point of my argument was that it depends on how people prefer to play. If you want your empyrean in three days, sure, you'd prefer the other trials over shield. Me, I want it with the least effort. I don't wanna farm gold chests for hours, I don't wanna camp NMs with a shitload of people to hold KIs for me. I just wanna chill out and invest a little time here and there and eventually end up at my Ochain. And for that, the trial really isn't horrible at all.

[scaevola]

I've gone 1/54 before on T1 > T2, granted that's not an average just the worst I've done, by the same token I've also gone 1/1, I'm just pointing out his example is possible.


Okay, that's fine, and it's a crystal clear example of why a red trigger ought to force abyssite changes; after all, even a 50% chance of change would result in some 1/54 changes in practice and to think otherwise is the gambler's fallacy. However, offering that 1/54 occurrence if the change rate were 50% would be a little unfair to the system itself, wouldn't it?

That said, even though I've never hunted Colorless Souls I've done enough VNMs to strongly agree with a higher change rate, red triggers, multiple T2/3 spawns, etc. It's just that even though progressive/point-based systems are always preferable to random binary ones, if we're stuck with a random binary system we should at least be willing to fairly evaluate it on its own merits.

[Zagen]

Okay, that's fine, and it's a crystal clear example of why a red trigger ought to force abyssite changes; after all, even a 50% chance of change would result in some 1/54 changes in practice and to think otherwise is the gambler's fallacy. However, offering that 1/54 occurrence if the change rate were 50% would be a little unfair to the system itself, wouldn't it?

That said, even though I've never hunted Colorless Souls I've done enough VNMs to strongly agree with a higher change rate, red triggers, multiple T2/3 spawns, etc. It's just that even though progressive/point-based systems are always preferable to random binary ones, if we're stuck with a random binary system we should at least be willing to fairly evaluate it on its own merits.
I agree Red !! should force a color change.

I can see the argument about "Red !! = Color Change" being over powered but as I see it is a weak argument at best.

1) You still have to get claim.
2) You have to be NIN/WAR + Healer or meds and pray for the right Red !! if you can't/don't want to go NIN + WAR + WHM.

When taking these into account I don't see "Red !! = Color Change" as being overpowered at all but more so a medium between multiple spawns and the current system. This also gives players more control over the situation.

Now I know some would argue Ochain/Daubarbla are amazing for the boosts they give but the reality is most people pursuing either will never see situations where they are actually needed. By that I mean the jobs themselves not the items as BRD/PLD aren't needed in Abyssea and with the amount of Pink/White/Blue armored players I see running around I don't see them shifting over to Voidwatch anytime soon unless its made easier and added +1/2 items at which point PLD/BRD go back to not being needed.

[Aeonk]

No, I do not, and no it does not. That was the whole point of my argument. I was saying that competition doesn't bother me at all. I'm not out to have my shield in three days. I'm totally fine with needing six months to complete it, because I play as I go along. And if the competition claims it, it means I can go back to doing something else while I wait on repop, so I don't care about that.

The entire point of my argument was that it depends on how people prefer to play. If you want your empyrean in three days, sure, you'd prefer the other trials over shield. Me, I want it with the least effort. I don't wanna farm gold chests for hours, I don't wanna camp NMs with a shitload of people to hold KIs for me. I just wanna chill out and invest a little time here and there and eventually end up at my Ochain. And for that, the trial really isn't horrible at all.
That's fair enough. I think the main problem people have is all the luck involved with the trial itself.
Some nights you walk away with 10 or 12 souls done, other nights you have 5. or 0. Depends on the upgrade rate and competition.
People seem to be arguing that they want a little less luck involved in this trial. Or maybe we're all just spoiled by the normal effort/reward ratio abyssea has brought to FFXI... but Ochain, despite being one of the hardest to obtain, really wasn't THAT bad. And the payoff is well worth it.

[scaevola]

Now I know some would argue Ochain/Daubarbla are amazing for the boosts they give but the reality is most people pursuing either will never see situations where they are actually needed. By that I mean the jobs themselves not the items as BRD/PLD aren't needed in Abyssea and with the amount of Pink/White/Blue armored players I see running around I don't see them shifting over to Voidwatch anytime soon unless its made easier and added +1/2 items at which point PLD/BRD go back to not being needed.


I think a lot of people might argue PLD "needs" Ochain because of how huge a difference it makes in Voidwatch, and how much more difficult it is to keep a tank alive who doesn't have it. I mean, it totally changes PLD in a way pretty much no piece of gear has changed its job since Apocalypse, and despite being more difficult than most weapons, it's still very attainable.

It's pretty much the pinnacle of all the arguments one could make about how Abyssea's ruined the game, honestly.

[Shiyo]

Giving everyone 81 attk and double march is pretty crazy, I'd say the harp is just as game breaking as ochain almost.

[MarkovChain]

Ochain wat ? PLD is garbage. Cure VI say hi, monks got 4K HP if they try.

[Zagen]

I think a lot of people might argue PLD "needs" Ochain because of how huge a difference it makes in Voidwatch, and how much more difficult it is to keep a tank alive who doesn't have it. I mean, it totally changes PLD in a way pretty much no piece of gear has changed its job since Apocalypse, and despite being more difficult than most weapons, it's still very attainable.

Giving everyone 81 attk and double march is pretty crazy, I'd say the harp is just as game breaking as ochain almost.
My point was simply that most people won't be doing Voidwatch because:
1) they need/like/want easy mode FFXI
2) are small manning stuff making it not worthwhile/possible to do Voidwatch
3) SE makes the rewards meh compared to Abyssea gear (at least for now)
4) most people stop Emps at 85 so going after 95 won't be a desire (assuming 95 items are from Voidwatch)

People who plan to do the hard stuff in the game because they have the means are a small group in comparison to this group. Meaning Ochain and Daubarbla are less impressive because PLD and BRD are less than optimal for a pt slot for easy mode FFXI where the majority of the player base lives.

[Rezeak]

The Ochain bottle necking SE is doing sux

there are so many ways SE could fix the Colorless soul issue....

Make all T3 VNM drop them
Add more T2 VNMs or decrease repop time or both
Make T2 > T3 like 100% if ya proc red

While i don't intend to do the shield this is clearly the old case SE saying it want to keep it hard and think it's hard
But really it's just tedious and boring since killing time is the hardest factor for this ><.

Honestly i'd rather it me insanly easy to pop but solid to kill like say Rani or Shinryu rather than the crap SE is doing now.

[wish12oz]

Ochain wat ? PLD is garbage. Cure VI say hi, monks got 4K HP if they try.

This doesn't make any sense.
Could you at least provide context for your statements? Why does MNK having 4k HP in HP gear matter? It's not like they could hold hate using that. And cure 6? Why does cure 6 matter? Are you going to spam cure 6 on the MNK who isn't holding hate in his HP gear?

[MarkovChain]

It's not like they could hold hate using that.

Why ? Daurdabla x 2 double march double madrigal sherzo mambo, earthen armor, goodbye.

[Jeffil]

Ok i'm also close to finishing this trial (souls). We have one T3 abyssite left and 2 souls to go. Very likely i'm gonna have to ask a friend to use/buy one of their T3 pops because i'm that sick of upgrading T2s.

I've mentioned in other threads that T1 to T2 is NOT an "issue". Yeah it can take a while some times. I eventually just found it humorous when it would take me 20+ kills.

But for the past month and a half, I have been going out to zones with my lsmates to upgrade T2 abyssites all the while negotiating with other groups who were there for seals (or color ups). I can go solo Koios during off peak server hours if nobody was there (I would not solo with a group there out of courtesy if they were there coloring up - I would just ask they let me know when they were done). I can solo Chione with temps but only did that a couple of times when there was no competition (oddly enough I colored up both times to T3).

Sometimes I would be doing these VNM every 10-15 minutes and not get a color up for 3 or 4 hours. Those were definitely the most annoying times. Whenever I had to go back to town without any T3 pops added to the stock I was frustrated.

I pretty much have for the past 40-45 days gone to color up T2 abyssites for like 75% of my play time. Thankfully my linkshell has been super awesome at helping me color up in all three zones. If it wasn't for them I would probably not even be halfway done with souls.

I think it also helped me that I am doing the souls chiefly first. Since it is the hardest trial, I figured it would make the Iron Giants and Azdajas go by that much quicker.

Also to address the assumption that you would require 75 Brulo or Maere kills to get 75 souls - they won't ALWAYS single drop. Actually we got Brulo to double drop 10 times out of 27. Maere however was much more stingy, double dropping only once out of 11 pops. The other 24 souls came from Ogo - and even he single dropped on us a few times.

If I could add one suggestion regarding the T3 VNM - could it be possible to make them have alliance hate when they are popped? We were fortunate to have this happen to us only once, but one member popped Ogopogo then took a Waterga IV to the face. He ended up dying and Ogo depopped. And yeah someone should've done something to Ogo to not cause him to depop, but still given that you lose the Abyssite immediately when you pop him, it sucks to see a few hours worth of work (the pop) disappear like that.

[wish12oz]

Why ? Daurdabla x 2 double march double madrigal sherzo mambo, earthen armor, goodbye.

So you want a smn, and 2 brds in your tank party so you can tank on MNK? MNK MNK BRD BRD SMN is 5 slots, seems way more effective to just have 2 PLDS and not require all this extra crap.

The whole point to using MNKs to begin with is to make it easier right? This thread is about how hard it is to farm ochain, and durblahblahblah requires the same 75 colorless souls. So saying you shouldnt get an ochain to tank cause you can just do double the work and have 2 brds and tank on MNK and thats better is just kind of....

[Aeonk]

So you want a smn, and 2 brds in your tank party so you can tank on MNK? MNK MNK BRD BRD SMN is 5 slots, seems way more effective to just have 2 PLDS and not require all this extra crap.

The whole point to using MNKs to begin with is to make it easier right? This thread is about how hard it is to farm ochain, and durblahblahblah requires the same 75 colorless souls. So saying you shouldnt get an ochain to tank cause you can just do double the work and have 2 brds and tank on MNK and thats better is just kind of....

You're giving them way more attention than they deserve. Obvious troll is obvious, etc.

[Rearden]

Well he's also ignoring that half of the shit you fight wipes your buffs, halves your HP and can oneshot you in MDT gear after you've lost your buffs but that ALSO implies he wasn't trolling and has actually fought any of this VW stuff.

[MarkovChain]

Where do you care about magic damage taken ?

[Kimble]

Voidwatch? Do you not know they cast pretty strong magic?

Voidwaught is biggest one I can think of.

[Rearden]

Caelano can also hit the insta-kill button if you get dispelled->aeroja/AerogaIV etc.

Mobs in Stage 2 vary, I think all casted high tier magic but some of them didn't hit hard, others hit really hard. Most of them also took more/less damage from melee/magic (one form superior to the other), with one of them even having different stances

[Pyrobunny]

Ok i'm also close to finishing this trial (souls). We have one T3 abyssite left and 2 souls to go. Very likely i'm gonna have to ask a friend to use/buy one of their T3 pops because i'm that sick of upgrading T2s.

I've mentioned in other threads that T1 to T2 is NOT an "issue". Yeah it can take a while some times. I eventually just found it humorous when it would take me 20+ kills.

But for the past month and a half, I have been going out to zones with my lsmates to upgrade T2 abyssites all the while negotiating with other groups who were there for seals (or color ups). I can go solo Koios during off peak server hours if nobody was there (I would not solo with a group there out of courtesy if they were there coloring up - I would just ask they let me know when they were done). I can solo Chione with temps but only did that a couple of times when there was no competition (oddly enough I colored up both times to T3).

Sometimes I would be doing these VNM every 10-15 minutes and not get a color up for 3 or 4 hours. Those were definitely the most annoying times. Whenever I had to go back to town without any T3 pops added to the stock I was frustrated.

I pretty much have for the past 40-45 days gone to color up T2 abyssites for like 75% of my play time. Thankfully my linkshell has been super awesome at helping me color up in all three zones. If it wasn't for them I would probably not even be halfway done with souls.

I think it also helped me that I am doing the souls chiefly first. Since it is the hardest trial, I figured it would make the Iron Giants and Azdajas go by that much quicker.

Also to address the assumption that you would require 75 Brulo or Maere kills to get 75 souls - they won't ALWAYS single drop. Actually we got Brulo to double drop 10 times out of 27. Maere however was much more stingy, double dropping only once out of 11 pops. The other 24 souls came from Ogo - and even he single dropped on us a few times.

If I could add one suggestion regarding the T3 VNM - could it be possible to make them have alliance hate when they are popped? We were fortunate to have this happen to us only once, but one member popped Ogopogo then took a Waterga IV to the face. He ended up dying and Ogo depopped. And yeah someone should've done something to Ogo to not cause him to depop, but still given that you lose the Abyssite immediately when you pop him, it sucks to see a few hours worth of work (the pop) disappear like that.

i helped \(`0`)/ and yea these VNM can suck it

[Hayward]

I took a look at those VNMs again and I believe there's another reason to all of this. There's no incentive for people doing +2 armor upgrades to even bother with these NMs. Adding +2 trial items to the pool would certainly increase participation and, in turn, the chances for more souls to be obtained.

[Hayward]

Additionally, I'd like to see tier III abyssites remain in the KI list until the player wants to dispose of it. If S-E is going to require so many souls, at least give people hassle-free way of getting them.

[Aeonk]

Additionally, I'd like to see tier III abyssites remain in the KI list until the player wants to dispose of it. If S-E is going to require so many souls, at least give people hassle-free way of getting them.
Terrible idea. All that would do is shift the bottleneck from T2 to T3, not alleviate it.

Not to mention that giving people infinite pop sets for T3 isn't really fair to everyone else.

About the only good thing about the situation as it is right now is when you or your competition is done upgrading T2's, you/they move on and let others get a chance at upgrading. Your suggestion would make it a permanent bottle neck from which there is no squeezing through.

[scaevola]

I took a look at those VNMs again and I believe there's another reason to all of this. There's no incentive for people doing +2 armor upgrades to even bother with these NMs. Adding +2 trial items to the pool would certainly increase participation and, in turn, the chances for more souls to be obtained.

If +1 body seals can't entice people to do Heroes VNMs, +2 items won't either.

[Rearden]

+2's are hard though

[Zagen]

+2's are hard though

This made me lol, thank you :)

[Masamunai]

Mmmm so to sum up what everyone said/quoted in this thread:

Main problem of Ochain/Daudarbla is the T2 > T3 color change rate. (no message from Camate/Devs).

T1 > T2 color change rate is NOT a problem for most players (and will be raised according to Camate). This will potentially increase the difficulty of the problem above.

If addressing T2>T3 color change rate, Heroes T3s popping will need ALSO to be diversified (ie 3 pops of same T3, and/or include Vision VNMs for 1 random Colorless Soul), and/or made more interesting (ie adding +2 upgrade items to their treasure pools).
(so far i didnot find any message from Camate/Devs about this issue, except fixing Maere/Brulo droprates...)

Did i miss anything?

[Pyrobunny]

Did i miss anything?

sounds about it to me

[Hayward]

Terrible idea. All that would do is shift the bottleneck from T2 to T3, not alleviate it.

Not to mention that giving people infinite pop sets for T3 isn't really fair to everyone else.

About the only good thing about the situation as it is right now is when you or your competition is done upgrading T2's, you/they move on and let others get a chance at upgrading. Your suggestion would make it a permanent bottle neck from which there is no squeezing through.

You might be right about this. Another idea would be to give players the option of upgrading from Tier II to Tier III once they've beaten the Tier II VNM and/or the option of either downgrading to Tier II or letting the abyssite break once the Tier III VNM is defeated. One way or another, there has to be a way to make VNM hunting less arduous.