Off Hand Only Why?

[Gokku]

a Few months ago i contacted a GM in regards to the aftermath of Verethragna only working on the off hand attack only. Now this anomaly also occurs in the Monk mythic weapon.

At that time the GM then had me demonstrate to him what exactly that meant. i was told a bug report would be filed and to look for an official response on the subject as to if the rate * below all other empy's and mythic* would be adjusted or if the effect would allow for main hand procs.

If there is any information you could provide as to why , and if it will ever be changed this could be a big help to monk and pup mythic's. If its working as intended id like to just be told then since GM's have 0 clue.

[Kam]

Err, what? It procs at a set %, whether it procs only on main hand, off hand or both hands it would not increase the proc rate and therefore damage. IE, 60% proc on only the off hand is equivalent to having 30% proc rate on each hand because as far as I know the proc PERCENTAGE is the same as any other Empyrean weapon and the OAT on the Mythic is the same PERCENTAGE as any other Mythic. Also didn't they state that was just how H2H was programmed and they couldn't and wouldn't be changing it because it's uneeded?

[Gokku]

Ill look the math up for it later but i remember it being posted that hth rates were showing up lower % then all others.

[Zhronne]

a Few months ago i contacted a GM in regards to the aftermath of Verethragna only working on the off hand attack only. Now this anomaly also occurs in the Monk mythic weapon.
And in the Puppetmaster Mythic weapon.
It used to be the same in Trial of the Magians "OA-X" weapons as well, but they fixed it some months later.
They never fixed the OAT aftermath of Mythics though, and made the ODD of Empyreals work the same.

I agree it's kinda a shame =/

[Zhronne]

Err, what? It procs at a set %, whether it procs only on main hand, off hand or both hands it would not increase the proc rate and therefore damage. IE, 60% proc on only the off hand is equivalent to having 30% proc rate on each hand because as far as I know the proc PERCENTAGE is the same as any other Empyrean weapon and the OAT on the Mythic is the same PERCENTAGE as any other Mythic. Also didn't they state that was just how H2H was programmed and they couldn't and wouldn't be changing it because it's uneeded?
I'm assuming here that Vere's problem is the same as Glanzfaust/Kenkonken.

It's not a matter of the rate, it should supposedly be the same as other Empyreal weapons, the problem is that it can proc only on one hand, that is, the off hand. Which means it can only happen once per attack round.
That's not particularly fair compared to other classes.
Take Warrior for example. They get "one proc per attack round" as well, but they use a two handed weapon that only does one attack per round and such attack does much more damage than one of our fist.
If anything, a single attack from an Ukonvasara is comparable to at least TWO of our fists. Which makes sense, since a single attack from Ukon = one attack round, just like two fists from Vere = one attack round.
They should just unlock the offhand thing and make so the ODD and OAT can proc on any of the fists, even both, on every attack round.

[Kam]

I think there would be a far bigger outrage if H2H was only 50% ODD/OAT to other Emps/Mythics so I'm pretty sure that to offset the fact it only procs on the off-hand they doubled the ODD/OAT rate on it to equal it to the other weapons but I can't say for certain.

[Zhronne]

They didn't double the rate. Actually some may say that they cut it in half (i.e. making it proc only on one hand) because otherwise it would be too powerful.
That might be, if you think about it Verethragna is pretty hot already among Empys even with "half" the procs per attack round.

[Motenten]

You actually have 3 rates and 2 composition factors.

The proc rate of the weapon. Always 30% for all weapons at 100 TP.

The number of base attacks possible per round.
2-handed weapons: always 1
H2H: always 2
1-handed weapons: usually 2 because of DW, but can be 1

So in 100 attack rounds, the number of ODD procs would be:
2-handed weapon: 30
H2H: 15
1-handed weapon: 15 or 30, depending DW

Since 1-handed weapons are -usually- DW'd, you can generally expect that, for example, Kannagi will get the same proc rate as Verethragna, both of which are half the proc rate of Ukon.

Given the relative strengths of the weapons, I would be inclined to suggest a 50% increase in ODD proc rates for 1-handed and H2H weapons (ie: 45% proc rate at 100 TP instead of 30%, up to 75% proc rate at 300 TP instead of 50%). That would still leave them weaker than 2-handed weapons in terms of ODD procs, but helps make up for the fact that they only get half as many chances per round. And while single-wielding 1-handed weapons then gets them a significant increases in relative ODD rates, they'd also be giving up the rather significant advantages of Dual Wield, so the gain (if any) is not nearly as large as it might at first seem.

[Diasetsu]

It's not just Empyrian and Mythic H2H weapons, Spharai is the same way, OTD is only for Main Hand. They changed ToM OAT H2H probably because you can dual wield OAT Magian weapons along with a kc, ridill, or other Occaionaly Attacks multiple times weapon. Now since H2H has always had a pseudo-dualwield effect but no OAT knuckles prior to this(we'll get to mythic in a second), they never worried about it. Every dual wielder can have weapon A with OAT and weapon B with OAT, so you have to allow both fist A and Fist B to have the OAT to make it fair.

Now why Mythic/Empyrian/Relic only proc on one hand you only have to look at balancing towards dual wield just like they did with ToM. In all cases of any of the 3 "Ultimate" Weapons when in the sub slot, or weapon B as we'll call it, none of these bonuses apply. You don't get 2x, or 3x Relic procs while off handing, you don't get Aftermath on offhand Empyrian or Mythics. H2H Ultimates only allow 1 hand to proc bonuses whether it be Main hand with Relic, or the Sub hand with Empyrians. This is not broken at all, and although I'd love my Spharai to 3x on both fists, and Vereth to ODD on both, it never will. This is intentionally coded in to balance it out with not allowing bonuses on offhand Ultimates.

[Zhronne]

Thanks to both of you, but my point was rather that we shouldn't think in terms of number of attacks, but in terms of attack rounds.
One Great Axe attack round is made by one single blow, and it's only fair that this blow does more damage and gets a higher TP return.
One Hand to Hand attack round is made by two blows, TP gain is split in two and the damage does as well, sort of.

You can't compare a single punch to a Great Axe attack, but you surely can compare two punches (a full attack round) to a Great Axe attack (a full attack round).

My point is that while h2h uses 1handed weapon mechanics (STR>att and DEX>acc ratios etc) it is, from a certain point of view, like a two handed weapon. You can't "split" it in two, you can't equip a different h2h offhand.

Wouldn't it be more fair to get a chance to proc on each fist?

[Rearden]

Proc both fist gogo.

[Taint2]

It's not just Empyrian and Mythic H2H weapons, Spharai is the same way, OTD is only for Main Hand. They changed ToM OAT H2H probably because you can dual wield OAT Magian weapons along with a kc, ridill, or other Occaionaly Attacks multiple times weapon. Now since H2H has always had a pseudo-dualwield effect but no OAT knuckles prior to this(we'll get to mythic in a second), they never worried about it. Every dual wielder can have weapon A with OAT and weapon B with OAT, so you have to allow both fist A and Fist B to have the OAT to make it fair.

Now why Mythic/Empyrian/Relic only proc on one hand you only have to look at balancing towards dual wield just like they did with ToM. In all cases of any of the 3 "Ultimate" Weapons when in the sub slot, or weapon B as we'll call it, none of these bonuses apply. You don't get 2x, or 3x Relic procs while off handing, you don't get Aftermath on offhand Empyrian or Mythics. H2H Ultimates only allow 1 hand to proc bonuses whether it be Main hand with Relic, or the Sub hand with Empyrians. This is not broken at all, and although I'd love my Spharai to 3x on both fists, and Vereth to ODD on both, it never will. This is intentionally coded in to balance it out with not allowing bonuses on offhand Ultimates.


Everything you said is correct but its still a huge disadvantage for H2H and dual wield weapons when compared to the 2handers.