RDM Balance ...

[ShadowViper]

Yup another one of those threads, as someone with every mage job 90 now its obvious RDM is falling behind quickly.

First what is a RDM, according to SE its the "Jack of All Trades.. Master of None". This sounds good and all but really is this what the job became. This job more so than any other job is defined by its subjob. This actually takes away from the "jack of all trades", on the battlefield. This wouldn't be an issue really if it wasn't for two newer jobs that have taken what rdm was originally designed to do and have taken it a bit further leaving RDM in an abys of uselessness. These jobs are BLU and SCH. Heres a quick list of pros of these jobs vs. RDM.

Blue Mage- Closer to the "Jack of All Trade"
Melee- Higher Sword Skill, access to more WS's, Self SC, better equipment
Healer- has better natural healing spells, also has some removals naturally
Tank- Has a variety of natural defence spells, variety of equipment
Nuker- Both Physical and Elemental based spell dmg
Enfeebler- can do alot of the same enfeebling, most with dmg on top, natural stun abilities, few new enfeebs (tp down)
Enhancer - Alot of self buffs, the ability to aoe self buff naturally

Scholar - More of a "Mage Jack of All Trade"
Healer - Ability to AOE, All removals, higher tier regens
Nuker- Higher tier spells, Helixes, Ability to increase mab/macc
Enhancer - Natural regain, enmity control spells, storms and a couple more common, Can Aoe most
Enfeebler - Few spells naturally, can AOE most black magic enfeebs

With regards to the above jobs, thats what they can do naturally w/o subs. SCH with rdm sub for instance gets most our party buffs minus Refresh 2 and all our enfeebs minus merits and Addle (give addle time since whm getting it). And with its ability to increase its accuracy with storms and strats can enfeeb almost as well as a a RDM. Blu in almost every category as good if not better than a RDM again minus Refresh 2 and more so can do it w/o depending on any particular sub allowing it to change up roles in a group.


Most of the abilities and spells that make a RDM what it is are pretty much available to any job as a sub (especially when 99 comes). The only unique spells we have are Refresh 2 (not so unique since other jobs have new refresh abilities) Composure and En2 spells. This basically gives us one benifit to the group Refresh 2, granted enfeebles are nice on some mobs but whm, sch, blm can cover most of them if we weren't there.

So what does a RDM regardless of sub shine at, Refresh 2 and Enfeebling and honestly I don't recall the last time I was asked to come to something because we needed more enfeebling. Making us really a one spell wonder, again.

Suggestions to try to balance us out with the above jobs.

Overall Melee-

Give us same sword skill and WS's as BLU (blu will still be better melee dd because of self SC ability and variety of traits)
Give us fencer so we aren't so reliant on sub to melee
Improve En-spells
Adjust composure ACC to adjust with lv or base it on % instead of straight 10 acc (good at 75 wont be as good at 99)


With the above we still wont be a true dd but we won't be so far behind that even WHM's have more melee potential than us. Also this would allow us to put to more use EN2 spells and death blossom both underated because of our overall melee capabilities.


Overall Mage-

Give us more unique spells (only mage that has 0 unique spells- spells that aren't done by someone else or with similar effects)
AOE versions of enhancing and enfeebling spells (having spells like haste and refresh single target forced rdms into a cycle casting mage keeping us from being "jack of all trades")


Noticed I didn't mention Cure5, With above adjustments we wont be taking away from any other jobs it will just make us more effecient at what we do which should be doing everything with out making us a master of anything. Giving RDMS aoes such as blindga/sleepga/hastega/REFRESHga2 and a few others doesn't take away from jobs such as whm or blm because those jobs already have a main job to do. SCH can also aoe most of these spells anyhow so not taking away from it since it still has alot of its own uniqueness with storms/helices.

Gear -

Give us back our light mail
Quit putting us on Archery Gear


Pretty self explanatory, we used to be on gear then at some lv we can no longer use certain classes of gear, doesn't make alot of sense. Again comparing with blu, blu's get to be on a variety of both mage and melee gear where rdm is on a very selected pieces or some that make absuletly no sense (archery gear).

General Spells
Not just a RDM only issue but spells like refresh 2, haste, en2, higher tier regen should be still used with sch stratugems.
Haste just simply needs to be done, yes you could aga haste an outside group but how is this game breaking, if low lv group have effects weakened/shorter (shorter i am sure does that already), again this is to break cycle casting from jobs that shouldnt' be doing it - aka not true support jobs.
2+ tier spells, for continuity just because the sch can't do it doesn't mean the function stops working.
Strats have a built in balance feature with subs from recharge time 2 min downtime making them unreliable for a constant use but nice to have to mix things up.

In the end the above would make RDM more useful regardless of sub not truly allowing us to catch up to WHM's, BLMS or pure DD's but bring us closer to BLUs and SCHs. Blu's would still outdmg us and still have their own utility with cures and such, SCH's who should get cure 5 would still get not as high of tier spells as main counterparts but we wont be so far behind them in usefulness.

ADDED-
A new ability/trait that would allow buffs we casted on ourselves to effect those around us, basically giving us an aura of that buff. As an ability would allow next spell used on ourself to become an aura. As a trait could be when weapon is drawn an aura of possibly multiple buffs (though since we can have alot of self buffs on us the effects would have to be lessen if it was multiple).

[ShadowViper]

*Reserved may break up above*

[Daniel_Hatcher]

RDM's Enfeebles are better than BLU's, also I'd go so far as to say defensively RDM still beats BLU...

As a side note, SCH has two enfeebles naturally, Sleep and Sleep II.

[ShadowViper]

SCH gets naturally dispel and Break also, thus few spells naturally.

RDM enfeebs tend to be better but blu can do just about all the enfeebs we can do while doing dmg at the same time. As for defensive, naturally w/o looking at subs blu has 2 versions of blink ( one being 7 shadows), pdt, lower quality stoneskin and a few others spells while also can set traits to help it defensively.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Most of this i agree with. Though i would LOVE to see us get some more JA too along the way personally, nothing drastic, but could be helpful, though if these went through, id like to see sch get a buff too along with this so when we get our improvements, we are further distanced from them.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

SCH gets naturally dispel and Break also, thus few spells naturally.

RDM enfeebs tend to be better but blu can do just about all the enfeebs we can do while doing dmg at the same time. As for defensive, naturally w/o looking at subs blu has 2 versions of blink ( one being 7 shadows), pdt, lower quality stoneskin and a few others spells while also can set traits to help it defensively.

Ah, forgot those.

BLU can't do all that, they are really so ridiculously limited when it comes to spells when you factor in that they must set spells they don't use just for traits.

SCH was the biggest insult, what they got should have went to RDM, WHM and BLM rather than add another job.

[saevel]

Ah, forgot those.

BLU can't do all that, they are really so ridiculously limited when it comes to spells when you factor in that they must set spells they don't use just for traits.

SCH was the biggest insult, what they got should have went to RDM, WHM and BLM rather than add another job.

Well lately SE's been in the mood to give BLU spells that are good and make nice set traits.

Auto-refresh is flashga + erasega
Dual Wield is Haste and super heavy damage spell (Q.Cont)
Attack Bonus is kinda old, cheapest combo just adds more STR / DEX
Accuracy Bonus is one of the best offensive spells in the game (Diss) and a cheap moderate damage spell (V.Dive)

DA is a toss up, useful spells cost more points, but you can get it really cheap.
With what's on the test server, store TP will be cheaper and BLU's get a crazy high damage, cheap spell that has the accuracy of sidewinder but can be spammed every 15s or so.

So yeah, of all the jobs in the game right now, BLU and MNK are probably the two more overpowered. Thankfully the games no longer about who can put out the most damage or zerging stuff down. It's about procing and getting drops, and while that tends to be class picky, its more open then back in the HNM days.

For the OP, most of what you wrote is a really good idea. Nothing too game breaking, nothing that doesn't already exist in the game. And everyone of those idea's will have the troll's in here shortly to start yelling on how we should play WHMs.

[ShadowViper]

@ Daniel - The thing about Blu is yes they can't do all those things at any one time, but what they can do is swap up playstyle/role in a relatively quick manner (1 min timer roughly for spells/abilities to become active), so BLU's aren't dependant on SJ if the group changes up what they are fighting or strat. A good blu can see what is needed during a fight reset its spells/abilties and now can cover a variety of roles nearly on the fly.

As for the trolls, if you noticed never said I want Cure5 to become better healers, I am content with 4 on RDM, SCH though should get 5. Keeping us from not getting Cure 5 Keeps us from over taking WHM roles in groups. Yeah if SCH got Cure5 they would run the risk of taking over WHM roles but again SCH is closer to WHM And BLM roles than RDM is, which we should be fine with since we are suppose to have a melee aspect also which SCH lacks.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

@ Daniel - The thing about Blu is yes they can't do all those things at any one time, but what they can do is swap up playstyle/role in a relatively quick manner (1 min timer roughly for spells/abilities to become active), so BLU's aren't dependant on SJ if the group changes up what they are fighting or strat. A good blu can see what is needed during a fight reset its spells/abilties and now can cover a variety of roles nearly on the fly.

As for the trolls, if you noticed never said I want Cure5 to become better healers, I am content with 4 on RDM, SCH though should get 5. Keeping us from not getting Cure 5 Keeps us from over taking WHM roles in groups. Yeah if SCH got Cure5 they would run the risk of taking over WHM roles but again SCH is closer to WHM And BLM roles than RDM is, which we should be fine with since we are suppose to have a melee aspect also which SCH lacks.

SCH really shouldn't get Cure V over RDM... We get them earlier which means we're more adept, it'd be a kick in the teeth if they gave it to SCH but not RDM, and outside of that even with Cure IV SCH isa much better a healer than RDM with Rapture, which turns a 450 cure into a 600~700.

[ShadowViper]

With cure 5 we become once again more of a Healer/support job as we once were before lv increase and nearly as strong as a WHM in that role. This would mean when ppl need main heals they would be looking for RDMs also which shouldnt be the case. With 5 we could easily become highly in demand again for main healing which should of never happened. Personally I would rather see us get Regenga with higher tick rates than what we currently have to allow us to help support w/o truly taking over someone elses role.

[Neisan_Quetz]

For lower tier stuff yes but that was the case anyway... for higher level NMs you're still going to want to bring a Whm.

Rdm healing even with cure V will never be as strong as Whm as it is now.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

For lower tier stuff yes but that was the case anyway... for higher level NMs you're still going to want to bring a Whm.

Rdm healing even with cure V will never be as strong as Whm as it is now.

Even WHM's MP efficiency is getting really good now.

[Hyrist]

For lower tier stuff yes but that was the case anyway... for higher level NMs you're still going to want to bring a Whm.

Rdm healing even with cure V will never be as strong as Whm as it is now.

Was not is. Only in the most easy of fights now do RDM's and scholars really become solo healers and it should really remain that way, as it encourages more multi-job approaches, rather than just plop one healer/support into a party and ignore every other job on the list.

RDM and SCH are more than capable now to heal in low-man situations that don't require spike healing and the adjustments I offered in the previous thread should keep both jobs balanced out as the level cap rises to 99. Even if we don't use Cure V to the efficiency WHM has, we'd still bump them off the radar if we had ANY form of high spike healing. And I don't agree that RDM or SCH should have that capacity, given the fact that there are plenty of jobs available with hybrid capacities that could easily bump a bread-and butter DD off.

This way, in situations you have a WHM, you can have a more dedicated DD even in easier functions. And for situations in which you have more Hybrid jobs or less damage, the lesser healers such as RDM and SCH can have a place and be able to still do their own duties primarily.


For the healer role, and perhaps other roles as well, people need to stop looking at the absolute cap of what a job can do, and start looking more at what gets the job done. Because that is what really dictates 'invite rate' as flawed of a concept that is these days.

It's not so much what's best as much as what's overkill. And expanding the burst curing potential of RDM and SCH will narrow that area between 'to little' and 'overkill' which will promote job variance.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I just really don't believe having a spike healing spell on Rdm is going to suddenly bump whm off the map when they have cureskin, emp+2 pants and body and afflatus solace over us still, and auspice. You're still going to bring a Whm for higher tier fights. I don't really care all that much about not getting Cure V, but at the same time the update feels very rushed and quite a few stuff that needs to be implemented is being skipped over because 'it won't be in time for the update'.

[ShadowViper]

The only reason I would want SCH with cure 5 is every role should have a decent fall back and really when you look at SCH it seems to be the job most suited for a fall back to WHM or BLM. RDM in its description really seems to be there to ADD to healing or nuking not to take over or a direct replacement if you can't find WHM or blm. Its interesting how no one complains about how if you can't find a blm for something and need a nuker the next best thing is SCH but no one wants to see SCH as the next best thing to a WHM.

I think part of the problem with so many people who want Cure 5 on RDM, is that they are used to the days of RDM mainly focused as a Healer mainly becasue if there was no WHM, RDM was clearly the next viable option. So alot of players only know RDM as a healer.

Again though this thread is about overall RDM and balancing the job as a whole not just the healing aspect of it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Even in Tau the only time Rdm was really a main healer was some lowman events and bird parties, anything hard you still brought a whm, especially after /sch was introduced.

[ShadowViper]

No way Neisan I have main healed Dark Ixion, Sandworm and plenty of other events as RDM. Ya whm may of been preferred but RDM was so close to performance it could easily fill the role without debating if it was worth doing. With SCH added, that should be the job people look to when they can't find a WHM.

As it stands right now RDM is mainly looked for as one thing, refresh whore, and thats because of the lack of our usefulness. Before the level increase it was 2 things Healer or refresh, yes its nice to be able to add more reliable enfeebs but I have never been asked to swap jobs cause we need specifically an enfeebler because WHM or BLM (later SCH/RDM) could fill that role.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Of course, I also believe Sch shouldn't have been added, but eh.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Id be fine with one or the other, and/but with upcoming gear, with between 14% and 19% cure potency (added to the magian staff of 22% and auger gloves 4% putting us at 26%, at bare minimum if we get the lowest body and the cape, we are averaging 40% cure potency, with 10% cure cast time down even! and with that much potency, it isnt hard for us to tack on a few more potency, like getting the serpentes set (+1%) or auging some z-pumps (+3%) or the neck/hq from WOE (2%/3%) so even without cure V we will have curing options, though i do agree it would make us able to fill the role easier if it came to it, but like a lot of us, i dont wanna be forced into ONLY healing.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I agree with not being forced into only healing but at the same time it can't be overlooked, and as it stands our current curing spell list being limited to 4 at best is not enough outside of outdated content/weak mobs. I know SE said they are looking into other options but they failed to implement anything for the upcoming update.

[ShadowViper]

Again I rather see us have some other role like enfeebling spells that are both unique and useful. Or if we are going to be the job to buff players into demi gods let me do it in a manner that doesn't force me into a stupid cycle. Right now with the lv increases and new abilities SE has a chance to fix RDM and break it out of the old mold of healer/refresher role, if they give us cure 5 the job will be no different than it was 2+ years ago. Having cure 4 is enough to help back up main healers, allow us to heal ourselves regardless of sub when solo'n while preventing us from becoming OP or overtanking another role.

Again I don't want to turn this thread into a Cure 5 discussion if thats all your interested in please feel free to start a new thread thats focused on it. The point of this thread was to suggest ways to balance our jobs versus content/jobs that already exist w/o putting us into roles that truly weren't made for us to be considered as mains.

[Crimson_Slasher]

For me, i see things a bit differently than rdm being an accent to a party, i see rdm as being the wildcard of the party, and would like the balance to reflect that, being able to swap gear and perform roles as the situation demands.

In need of healing? Rdm should be just barely able to do this, another cure IV or V should work in this respect, as well as some sort of status removal, perhaps via a buff that shortens active enfeebles on a party member(s) by 50%.

In the nuking department, as much as id like to see more, i feel we are sufficient, but one or two more past the elemental family could be nice.

As far as enhancing, id like to see some method to effectively, and quickly share our buffs without cycling them into eternity, as well as perhaps seeing a mild but overall "combat enhancer" buff, which raises non atributes by a percentage or fixed value (Say +5% attack/accuracy/defense, evasion/magic evasion, ranged accuracy/attack, magic accuacy/attack/defense, etc.)

As far as enfeebling goes, we need resistances toned down, i feel in a way that we can land the spells on anything, but potency, or duration varies with said resistant mobs, additionally id like to see another DOT type spell, i find myself only able to DOT effectively /blm.

As far as tanking, well, we need hate support, the damage area isnt so much a problem with the right gear/practice. (not that i tank much on rdm, or am looking for a buff here persay, just breaking down the various fields)

As far as physical damage, we suffer from currently hard to obtain haste gear, scarce and insufficently powerful weaponskilling gear, a lack of daggers but a decent list of ws, a lack of sword ws but a good sword selection, few combat oriented shields, and virtually no traits, though these can be covered with the buff i mentioned above.

Overall, i dont want to outdo any professional in their job, but if push comes to shove, and the party can be made more effective switching your dedicated rdm from healing to nuking, or meleeing, or enhancing, or whatever the case be, i would be glad to carry the extra gear.

Id also love to see a party of 6 rdms able to perform as an organized unit, all performing agreed upon tasks to mimic a real party to a degree, having 1-2 actual "healer rdms," a "buffer/nuker/enfeeber/tank rdm," and 3 "DD Rdm" able to fight effectively, even if not at maximum efficienty in an old styled exp party, but thats more of a novelty to want to see, id like to see whms able to do the same in truth.

Thats my thoughts of balance though. Id like proficency, but not overwelming superiority over the other masters in any given field.

[saevel]

A few things people are not taking into account. First being outside of Abyssea MP is still a precious commodity. A WHM is forced to choose between /RDM refresh + convert and /SCH utilities, a WHM will get +3mp/tick from gear assuming they were lucky enough to get a +1mp/tick hairpin. /RDM is 3mp/tick and /SCH is sublimation.

Now RDM main,
Same 3mp/tick from body + chapeau, but my Refresh II is 7mp/tick, this standing outside Abyssea I'm looking at 10mp/tick while breathing. Combine this with a sub 9m convert timer and we're still the kinds of MP restoration. With /SCH or /WHM we get all the -na's and erase and even an aoe cure or two. We have mild CC ability for emergencies, and the gloriously awesome Saboteur Dia III for "kill it now" moments. Only think preventing us from being forced back into WHM-1 is the lack of "Cure V". I've had various LS leaders and event planners make that comment many many times, that if only RDM had Cure V they would put us in the melee PT and wouldn't need to find another WHM.

So yeah Cure V would be a very bad thing for us. Now SCH on the other hand is already a WHM + BLM, their supposed to be masters of both magic types but only one at a time. They should get Cure V under apendum white, just like their getting tier V nukes under apendum black.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Whm emp+2 pants pretty much solves their mp concerns outside combined with either sub and autorefresh gear unless they're spamming cures or something. Cureskin in near capped potency with +2 body/auspice/esuna/enhanced barspells are still Whm only.

Sch shouldn't get Cure V before Rdm. They learn cures at the same rate as Pld.

[saevel]

It's simple Neisan, do you want to get on RDM so that you can play WHM-1?

If yes, then Cure V fits in with your play style. If no then Cure V would destroy your play style. Any other response is just someone tap dancing.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Anything above 4 would be nice tbh, they can make a new spell and call it wtf they want for all I care, I simply don't believe cure V or a new spell above 4 without solace is so wtfbroken that SE can't have more than 1 job capable of actually healing better than other mages subbing whm based on cure tiers available (and that current job is... BLU, who typically isn't called on for main healing, and... still won't replace our current condition of their being only one healer).

[saevel]

Its not about being "omgwtf broken", RDM was NEVER that. It's about being "just good enough" which we were. Why did players chose RDM to be a main healer? WHM has so many tools and much better capability. It was because RDM was just barely able to cure enough to get a victory, while being more plentiful and not requiring another RDM for MP.

This game has always been about squeaking by with the bare minimum for a victory, they go as light as possible in the support department and as heavy as possible in the offensive department. That mentality didn't go away with Abyssea, it just made them require a few more jobs who normally wouldn't be invites (BLM mostly). There is new content coming up, and considering the player base doesn't' change, the first thing their gonna try to find out is the absolutely minimum required support base to get a victory. A RDM capable of casting "Cure V" is just a gimp WHM, and that is EXACTLY how the non-RDM's will see it, or haven't you missed all the MeleeRDM hate going on? It'll just start another round of "RDM is only good for healing" and we'll be pigeonholed just like we were back in 2004.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'd rather be good for something than as it stands which is not very good for most situations in a party. I'm willing to wait on these promised adjustments but after recent adjustments I'm remaining pessimistic.

I still don't see how having more than 1 job being viable for curing is somehow a bad thing. Monopoly is a bad thing, options are good. What I want is a situation where it is an option, and neither job has a monopoly.

[saevel]

Ohh to the contrary, I never said to only have one job. SCH should definitely get Cure V under app.white, it fits their motif. RDM should be getting the rest of the Regen's and possible a super HoT.

Ultimately giving RDM "Cure V" is a very short sighted, all it does is turn

Haste
Refresh
Cure IV

into

Haste
Refresh
Cure V

Blizz~~ (Leader: What are you DOING, stop nuking, that's MP you can use for more Cure V, and my haste's been down for 5s put it back up NOW).
Nothing actually changes, RDM plays the same as in 2004. This is something SE is attempting to change right now.

[Shiyo]

By attempting to change you mean making the job completely useless, worthless, unwanted, and serve no point?

I guess it'll be cool, instead of curing, hasting, and refreshing(you forgot to mention crowd controlling, debuffing, nuking PROPERLY etc, but I guess that's too complex or something), we'll be on another job doing other things!

[Swords]

By attempting to change you mean making the job completely useless, worthless, unwanted, and serve no point?

I guess it'll be cool, instead of curing, hasting, and refreshing(you forgot to mention crowd controlling, debuffing, nuking PROPERLY etc, but I guess that's too complex or something), we'll be on another job doing other things!

Changing the job does not mean it would make it worthless, unwanted, or useless in any way, change is the foundation upon which jobs and the game grows and evolves. RDM has not evolved since it's redesign but the game drastically has, and the way I see it is the game is not going to change to cater to us. Now we can stick to our old ToAU mentalities with the way we were pigeonholed into such a drolled out position, but the fact remains we're not wanted for what we can do as it is, meaning all we really can do is change to become better and find that new niche we will be desired for.

With change all aspects of the job will have to be taken into consideration because RDM has alot of growth potential, it does not mean it has to be a melee change, doesn't mean it has to be a mage change either, for all we know SE might actually make an intermingled change combining aspects of both in a way similar to some BLU spells are tied into physical acc.

However, It's the fact people don't want any form of change, is exactly what stifles the growth and keeps RDM from getting out of the hole it's in.

[katz]

Topics like this one make me laugh. Rdm is what you want it to be, not what everyone else says it should be. To the wannabe whms who are rdms cure 5 is ok, still wont make you a whm with cure 6. To the wanna be melees, deal with what you have, boost where you are weak, you can still kill, just not as fast as proper dds will take you longer. Stop letting other people rule your job, its your money you are paying to play the game, make it what you will. Start saying no more often, then all the Rdms will form linkshells and you will end up with the set of 6 that someone wanted.

7 years ago I played Rdm/Blu or Rdm/War, anyone who asked for a whm sub was told sure its level 1. Rdm has been and always will be what you make it to be.

[Shiyo]

We have 4 levels to go after level 95, do you really think they're going to make that many huge changes or add that many spells in FOUR levels?

Don't kid yourself, RDM is not going to improve much at all in 4 more levels. We've already seen what we're getting at 95, soo....

At 90, and 95, this is the entire purpose of RDM:

1) Do you need refresh 2? No? Go to #2 Yes? Go to #3
2) Invite another WHM or any other job in the game
3) Do you have a bard? No? Go to 4 Yes? go to 5
4) Invite a bard
5) Do you need any other spell in the entire game besides refresh 2? No? Go to 6 Yes? go to 2
6) Invite RDM mule to refresh2 and do nothing else

[Crimson_Slasher]

Id be fine with that honestly, as i said, id like to see rdm's options expanded, as for melee, that is an area what we need SOMETHING in, in my opinion. Once again, we have deficient selection of gear, and thats one area we could have fixed, just because it isnt a little behind what is in use now, its quite a bit behind. And if that can't be fixed, weaponskill adjustments could fix some of that stress. And if not that, spells or traits to enhance what we do have. And if not that, enfeebles possibly, but it still comes down to our physical prowesses trailing behind some. Im gonna try to assemble a bare-bones melee gear comparison, comparing the easy to get ws options each job gets, and then the best rdm gets, because im curious, but doubtful as to how well rdm ranks for ws build.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Roughly 9% give or take behind Blu using CDC at 90 cap, or around that in average damage.

[ShadowViper]

As for the RDM melee side its not the gear thats the problem as much as our skill, I rather see blu have better gear but give us aleast the same amount of skill. As stated in the first post no way are we going to over come BLU in the melee department they have too many tools including self SC to keep themselves ahead of us.

RDM at one point was left behind by SE and they stated its because RDM had become so OP as a solo'er. Part of this was the fact we could do what was considered enough healing for mobs (till level increase/abys nothing truly needed cure 5) if we got that again we would become OP once more in that field. Why again on SCH it gives us a second option to go to when we can't find a WHM for an endgame event but it doesn't allow sch to become OP solo'ers like rdm once was.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Sch could nuke solo most anything Rdm can nuke solo off the top of my head, only faster. Game's changed, this isn't 75 cap anymore.

[Swords]

We have 4 levels to go after level 95, do you really think they're going to make that many huge changes or add that many spells in FOUR levels?

Don't kid yourself, RDM is not going to improve much at all in 4 more levels. We've already seen what we're getting at 95, soo....


Your assuming that any new changes will be limited to 95+, it's not uncommon to get upgrades for earlier levels long after we've passed it such as Composure and Tier-II enspells which only came out about 2 years ago. That's also assuming no major revamps occur in the future which is entirely plausable since SE has rebuilt some jobs from the ground up already in one way or another.

[Lordscyon]

Too much reading T.T
RDM is fun! its not broken!
We can swing our swords too do damage too mobs!
and nuke here and there too be active!

[Crimson_Slasher]

Lets not forget the recent revisions to blackmage, given at lv 50 they recieved elemental celarity, and scholar too recieved retroactive buffs, recieving stoneskin, blink, aquaveil, and blaze/shock/icespikes, which are retroactive buffs and enhancements! So there is plenty precident to add things to rdm that wont occur in the next 9 levels.

[saevel]

The melee side of RDM is actually pretty easy to fix.

#1 give all sword WS, period no room for discussion (a player shouldn't expect to have CDC just to accepted)
#2 put RDM on all the BLU/DNC/NIN/THF gear (we used to be on all this gear, then suddenly SE stuck us on SMN/WHM/BLM gear that even those jobs didn't really want). SE has a history of making really good melee gear, and absolute sh!t mage gear. I'm just happy they didn't screw our Emp Armor up.

Those top two will fix most of the issues.

#3 Fix enspells, all of them. Either modify their formula so that they scale differently post 300 skill, or create a new tier that does scale well. SE could easily double the damage on enspells and it still wouldn't be close to being broken.

*Poof* melee fixed.

Mage is a tad more difficult, mostly due to people not wiling to accept balance issues and wanting to turn RDM into SCH or WHM-1.

Enfeebling, add stat down enfeebles. Monsters already use them, the effect's already exist. I'm talking the icons for "defense down", "attack down", "magic defense down", "evasion down" and so forth, basically everything the GAXE Break line does in spell form. Make sure HNM's are not resistant to these, their not overpowered and would aid immensely to fights.

Enhancing, adjust accession to work with ALL enhancing magic, period, end of story. This will fix lots of stuff, but still we're lacking. I'd suggest making the "Gain-Stat" spells work just like the "Boost" spells, or make them into an aura effect like the VWNM atmacites work. People would be much happier with you on the front line if you were able to boost everyone's STR or DEX.

Healing magic, here is where everyone sh!ts a brick and throws a tantrum. I'd like to break out of the "spam cure" mentality that's been going around. It's unhealthy for a game to be that way. I personally feel that we would get more mileage out of Regen line due to them being enhancing magic and thus work with composure and our various buffs. Change Regen II to 60, add Regen III / IV to RDM, these need to happen (Regen IV is 600Hp over 60s, slightly over 1K HP with our full Emp set). Then add a special RDM only HoT (heal over time) spell with a base duration of 30s (10 ticks) but a potency of 50 that goes up with more enhancing magic, possibly capping out at 80. This would give the RDM the ability to hand out hate free HP and wouldn't step on the WHM's cure toes. Regen is a HP prevention method more then a HP recovery method, tank gets hit for 200, recovers 30 (regen IV) and so forth.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Ohh to the contrary, I never said to only have one job. SCH should definitely get Cure V under app.white, it fits their motif. RDM should be getting the rest of the Regen's and possible a super HoT.

Ultimately giving RDM "Cure V" is a very short sighted, all it does is turn

Haste
Refresh
Cure IV

into

Haste
Refresh
Cure V

Blizz~~ (Leader: What are you DOING, stop nuking, that's MP you can use for more Cure V, and my haste's been down for 5s put it back up NOW).
Nothing actually changes, RDM plays the same as in 2004. This is something SE is attempting to change right now.

DoT is SCH's thing so as such it is SCH's to have HoT, Hello (earlier than WHM) Regen and Regen II.

RDM needs Cure V, not to take over WHM's job, but because IV doesn't cut it anymore. The day SCH gets a Cure spell earlier, and before RDM who has learned them all several levels before SCH is the day I finally put RDM in this bin.

[ShadowViper]

@ Saevel - Giving us just the WS's wouldnt change a thing w/o giving us better skill rating. DRK has all the WS's yet unless its for a souleater spam with a multihit weapon (ridill usually) would never be allowed to use sword in a normal party. You can argue its because they have better options but really what makes them better options, the skill rating. To truly prove this why is it for endgame events you would never see DRK use AXE or GA, while War who does use those don't use GS or Scythe, again its cause skill level plays that much of a role in it.

Again as for the mage side ya it would really need more of unique spells that would warrant wanting a rdm past refresh. As for the spells you suggested we sorta have that with DIA, BIO and gravity, we are missing a magic defence down though which would be nice, though DIA/BIO does do this it would be nice to have a non dot to do this sorta like how blu got enervation which does both def and mdef. As for the regens I really wouldn't want higher tiers versus AOE versions, with higher tiers we will go from spamming refresh to spamming refresh/regen, neither would be game breaking since other jobs all ready have ways of doing this naturally.

[saevel]

Then you might as well do it now then. SE isn't going to give Cure V anytime before SCH, the recent updates should of shown that.

Plus, it would seriously suck in the long run. Absolute quickest way to be turned back into WHM-1 with your most important piece of equipment being a light staff (or the Magian Staff) is to have Cure V natively. PT leaders see WHM's for

Cure V
Paralyna
Silena
Cursna
Stona
Viruna
Erase
Haste

And that's pretty much it. The only thing out of that list that RDM/WHM doesn't get is Cure V, and you can be 100% guaranteed that should you get it, your job will forever be spamming Cure on people.

It's a simple fact of all MMO's. Nobody wants to be the healer, the healers rarely get recognition for the outstanding job they do (and is the reason I always thank my healers). The job tends to be boring and you do the exact same things over and over again, especially in FFXI where the healing system is so simple and crude. Due to this PT / LS leaders will always have a hard time finding and keeping full time healers, so they'll scrounge and take from whatever they can. Right now their pretty much forced to use WHM's as their main healing source, us being RDM's means they rarely look at us for this duty. Should we get Cure V, PT/LS leaders will then turn to us as an alternative to WHM's for main healers. Now I didn't level RDM to be a WHM-1, that isn't my play style and won't ever be my play style. And I'm fairly positive most of my RDM brethren here feel the same, we don't mind assisting the healers and taking care of things, we we loath being forced into mind numbing cure spamming. PT/LS leaders don't care about this, all they want is healers for their events, thus if you have RDM leveled you ~WILL~ be a main healer, else its /break pearl at worst, at best you'll just get rude comments made and dirty looks from everyone else in your shell and be passed over for loot.

[saevel]

@ Saevel - Giving us just the WS's wouldnt change a thing w/o giving us better skill rating. DRK has all the WS's yet unless its for a souleater spam with a multihit weapon (ridill usually) would never be allowed to use sword in a normal party. You can argue its because they have better options but really what makes them better options, the skill rating. To truly prove this why is it for endgame events you would never see DRK use AXE or GA, while War who does use those don't use GS or Scythe, again its cause skill level plays that much of a role in it.

*Cough*
Wrong, we're exactly 19 skill behind BLU, which turns out to be 19 accuracy and 19 attack, 9.5% hit rate. Skill rate means absolutely nothing now.

And to prove this, on WAR with swords (exact same rank as RDM) I whip out 3K+ vorpals in Abyssea and 1~2K Vorpals outside. As a DRK (less then WAR / RDM) I can do the same, unless I have SE up then it's ridiculously high, but that's just BNS.

Ignore skill, it's useless nowadays. 76+ everyone go the exact same rate of increase's, A+ got the same as A- got the same as B and B-.

Also DRK's don't use Axe/Sword because Desperate Blows doesn't work with 1H weapons and /SAM exists. DB is +25% Haste whenever LR is up, which is now a 3min duration with the same recast options that Berserk has. DRK got stuck in a bad position for Abyssea, inside they ~COULD~ use Vorpal / Rampage but they'd lose out on DB buff. Outside their Scyth does a much better job due to no crazy +crit atma's being present. I could go into some pretty detailed math on this, but would be better to redirect you to the DRK forums on Alla for it.

In short, PLD, the highest ranked sword user does less damage then my WAR's sword, not because of skill or gear but because they lack offensive JA / JT. As RDM's we fit in the same category, our only offensive melee JA is Composure for +15 accuracy, JT is non-existent. This actually brings us to 4 acc (2%) behind BLU, but then both can get Acc Bonus depending.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Well in this stage of the game outside of gearing RDM, I don't play as it, useless job as it stands.

Going on history if they give SCH it they'll give RDM it first.

I will go on that rather than a random who's using the fact they said they didn't plan on giving it to SCH (yet) as reasoning to not give it to RDM.

Will I be wrong? possibly. Time will tell.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You left out no -aga cures (can actually lose 0 mp on these depending on sub/targets hit and healed), no Auspice, no Esuna, no Misery/Solace, no cureskin, (inside only) no VI, no ability to remove multiple enfeebles at once or transfer to self for Misery Esuna, no Divine Benison, no new JA reducing Magic damage for party members, no AoE stat gain spells.

[saevel]

Well in this stage of the game outside of gearing RDM, I don't play as it, useless job as it stands.

Going on history if they give SCH it they'll give RDM it first.

I will go on that rather than a random who's using the fact they said they didn't plan on giving it to SCH (yet) as reasoning to not give it to RDM.

Will I be wrong? possibly. Time will tell.

And this is your problem, you use the job as a healer although you have melee leanings. I've used it as various things since 2003 and plan to continue doing so until the server explodes.

RDM is not useless, the only thing different at 90 from 75 is that we can't be main healers anymore. If all you ever did was main heal, then yes the job will feel useless, but then why didn't you play WHM anyway? I mean your doing the exact same things, but WHM has so much more to offer for healing then what any RDM (even one with Cure V) could possible do. Are you a masochist?

[ShadowViper]

Well part of the reason we got it earlier than pld for the early half of games was because we were the second healer class. When sch came out if they would of given cures for the first half of our lvs to SCH before RDM, until 41 RDM would of found itself having an extemely difficult time finding parties.

Giving SCH CURE 5 while under the effect of add. White wouldn't be game breaking it would allow the game to have a decent second healer and would fit since SCH does have a higher skill rating than us and was designed to be closer to a WHM or BLM alternative. Also with the solo part, yes anything we nuke they can nuke but outside of abys most HNM/endgame NM's RDM doesn't typically nuke kill they melee kill such as genbu back when it really was an achievement to solo. SCH could never do this with their weapon ratings and defence capabilities.

RDM was never intended to be a WHM or BLM alternative, and the biggest reason we got refresh wasn't to be a chain casting mage but was so we could be frontlines w/o the need to rest as frequently. The problem was w/o the AOE version of it and haste we became the chain casters that RDM is best known as now.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

And this is your problem, you use the job as a healer although you have melee leanings. I've used it as various things since 2003 and plan to continue doing so until the server explodes.

RDM is not useless, the only thing different at 90 from 75 is that we can't be main healers anymore. If all you ever did was main heal, then yes the job will feel useless, but then why didn't you play WHM anyway? I mean your doing the exact same things, but WHM has so much more to offer for healing then what any RDM (even one with Cure V) could possible do. Are you a masochist?

Wrong! I never used it as a healer, I specifically changed to my WHM when I was asked to heal.

One of it's main things is Enfeebles which on hNMs was always mostly worthless and even Abyssea has furthered that, with it now turning to voidwatchNMs.

My RDM was and will forever be a backup healer or main healer if a WHM can't be found, if the WHM healed someone and then a DD grabbed hate, I'd heal to help the WHM. Along with splitting the load where Haste was concerned. My issue is and forever will Cure V is not a capable heal anymore, wasn't in Abyssea and it's becoming more obvious it's not in Voidwatch now.

This gives RDM the massive role of... erm!?

My arguement was more with the fact RDM always got cures before SCH, and it shouldn't change not now, not ever.

---

People are not giving WHM enough credit now. Giving SCH and RDM Cure V wouldn't take away from them now. Most of their issues are mostly gone and the bonuses are not worth loosing anymore.

[ShadowViper]

What really we should get, An ability that allows us to give a small (like 5 yalms) aura of our next buff on ourself that would last as long as the spell is in effect (even allowing the extra time with composureof the buff only exceptions i see would be stoneskin and aquavield since they have a set number associated). Thinking about it this would give us more of a reason to be frontline and would solve some of the chain casting issues. This could also be a trait when our main hand is drawn.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

What really we should get, An ability that allows us to give a small (like 5 yalms) aura of our next buff on ourself that would last as long as the spell is in effect (even allowing the extra time with composureof the buff only exceptions i see would be stoneskin and aquavield since they have a set number associated). Thinking about it this would give us more of a reason to be frontline and would solve some of the chain casting issues. This could also be a trait when our main hand is drawn.

They've already said no to Aura's unfortunately.

---

PS. Forgot to add on the previous posts. Lets not forget were Cure V to be given it wouldn't have the enmity decrease, and would be a lot weaker.

[Hyrist]

I really don't understand why it would have to be Auras instead of Melee enhancing Debuffs. Saboteur Dia III IS Sexy after all. Having some other debuffs would do the same thing we wanted for all melees regardless of distance, bypassing the Sphere issue.

If damage really is an issue then the ability to do more should bypass that, correct? Or is this all an Epeen contest stating that if a RDM doesn't do as well as a mnk that they should never melee?

Adjusting gear and WSes the way Savelle described would close the Melee performance gap nicely. And you'd wind up with a complete, true jack of all trades job with a strong Enfeeblement and Enhancing leaning. (which would be what makes it a jack of all trades, in the end.)

Magic Wise I do believe RDM should lean far more towards damage mitigation than damage recovery. Cure V in that respect is toxic to that approach as it having it AND and ability to mitigate TP attacks could easily be conceived as overpowered (And more than enough to replace a WHM.)

I honestly beleive the real solution to RDM's general performance relies mostly upon the same enhancing and enfeebeling traits that SE listed in the manifesto.

Stronger Offensive and Deffensive Debuffs would solve RDM's Melee and Curing performance problems respectively.

Better buffs would assist RDM's various stats and allow RDM to rotate in buffs that assist whatever role they choose to go into. (though I'd like to see some Mage-leaning buffs for ourselves besides Gain MND/INT and Refresh II)

Then finally a JA that transfers buffs on ourselves to another player, which would flatly fix our buffing game, because we could turn any one player in our party into a god with as many self-buffs we have. (Haste, Phalanx, Stoneskin, Enspell, Aquaveil, Spikes Temper, Regen # Refresh # Barspell, Gainspell all at once would be a tremendous buff.)


It's really not hard. I just think SE's afraid of taking those wide steps.

[Ophannus]

RDM has higher enhancing than WHM but WHM trumps RDM in not only Healing but also damage mitigation ala better barspells, cureskin, stronger protectra/shellras, regens. The only thing WHM doesn't have is Phalanx which doesn't matter much really. RDM doesn't even trump WHM in MP efficiency by that much since /RDM gives full Convert and 3/tick Refresh. We beat them by 4/tick with RefreshII+1, but they get all this MP return from AF and more efficient cure spells and AoEs and in low man situations can Mystic Boon for 600-700 MP back.

[Shiyo]

No WHM subs RDM, do not bring up /rdm and convert. /SCH makes WHM far more mp efficient than RDM though, my mule with only 4 mp auto-refresh + sublimation + 5/5 af3+2 + 50% cure potency can heal me forever outside abyssea with 0 downtime. 1,100 cure5's outside is awesome, my RDM cure4's for like 550 outside, yay?

Also, if you don't want to heal, if you want to melee dd, and if you straight up refuse buff cycles please:
1) Explain why you picked RDM if you refuse to do anything the job is about
2) Level another job
3) Read the bluemage wiki page.

guys, I picked NIN to sub thf and DD, I refuse to tank, I refuse to buy shihei, and I don't wanna quest/buy/bcnm the utsu line of spells!

This is what you look like, you look like the mega gimps of 2003 who played NIN and refused to play the job for it's intended purpose and role in a party, while also being cheap and horrible.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The point remains the same, that MP efficiency isn't a huge problem for whm anymore. Motenten's math put /rdm better by about 20% outside but for most stuff /sch is enough.

[Laro]

I would just like to see RDM get stop. We got break (which they unfortunately gave to BLM too). I'd like to see more exclusive enfeebs. I have no problems with rdm getting another tier of cure, but I can understand why that would make some people upset I guess. The suggestions to give us higher tier regens sounded good to me as well, along with enhancing auras. That just sounds cool lol

[Ophannus]

Curing on RDM is becoming almost as worthless as meleeing. By asking a RDM to spam Cure IV, you might as well be asking the BRD/WHM or SMN/WHM to be Curing, as RDM has no distinct advantage over those jobs at Curing. The only reasons why the RDM will be asked to Cure over the BRD or SMN despite having the same tier of Cure is because RDM isn't much better at any other task currently and therefore has nothing else to do except reapply debuffs(if applicable) and Haste a melee or two. In the half dozen LS I've been in, having a RDM in mage parties for Refresh II has never been an explicit priority as MP regeneration has now become something that mages take into their own hands now with /RDM and /SCH such that Refresh II is an utter novelty, much like how melees all now sub NIN or SAM for some kind of shadows and nobody cycles SMNs for Earthen Ward/Aerial Armor like in 2003.

[saevel]

Curing on RDM is becoming almost as worthless as meleeing. By asking a RDM to spam Cure IV, you might as well be asking the BRD/WHM or SMN/WHM to be Curing, as RDM has no distinct advantage over those jobs at Curing. The only reasons why the RDM will be asked to Cure over the BRD or SMN despite having the same tier of Cure is because RDM isn't much better at any other task currently and therefore has nothing else to do except reapply debuffs(if applicable) and Haste a melee or two. In the half dozen LS I've been in, having a RDM in mage parties for Refresh II has never been an explicit priority as MP regeneration has now become something that mages take into their own hands now with /RDM and /SCH such that Refresh II is an utter novelty, much like how melees all now sub NIN or SAM for some kind of shadows and nobody cycles SMNs for Earthen Ward/Aerial Armor like in 2003.

Depends on your shell's tactics really. Inside abyssea I'm always BLU or WAR, but outside when we do VWNM's, T3VNM's or the T4 evil dragon of death, I go RDM, usually /DRK but /SCH is also an option. I'm in the tank party which consists of PLD PLD WHM BRD RDM <Other>, its usually me babysitting the WHM's and making sure things roll on. If I'm /DRK then I'll be main stunner, something I'm pretty good at, otherwise I'll be /SCH. Some of those mobs put up 2~3 status ailments that need to be removed from both tanks asap, thats 4~6 -na / erase casts which is too much for a single WHM to handle. Also just general support as needed, my plate gets pretty full. The only things I'm doing that a full WHM couldn't do is Slow II, Dia III full time (Addle if applicable), fully powered Refresh II on healers, and for when the times right, saboteur Dia III which is one helluva way to slaughter a NM.

Also I don't think people understand how job selection works. Leaders don't have an infinite list of any / all available jobs they chose from. They make due with what's available in the LS, which is how RDM got stuck healing so much to begin with. We have Cure IV and it was just enough to get by, so we got the job.

[Shiyo]

Why the hell are you subbing DRK instead of blm

I don't even know what's going on anymore

[Economizer]

RDM has no distinct advantage over those jobs at Curing.

Apparently Fast Cast and mass amounts of mind gear don't exist.

[Crimson_Slasher]

/blm and /drk both have mp though /drk has less, objectively on the otherhand, /blm doesnt have a lot to offer in a single nm endgame situation, as sleepga, elementga 1-2 and the like arent effective on nms, so unless you plan on needing warp, /drk is sufficient. Additionally, while burn/choke/shock or drown/rasp/frost are handy for DOT and stat downs, /drk can do the same, and at time offer other bonuses that may further hinder the mobs, absorb tp (which while hindered by low dark skill, we dont find much outisde abyssea that fights our 255ish dark skill) being one of these handy spells, so while not suited for your playstyle, it is a valid substitution and option that may offer other bonuses more suited to a specific fight.

Edit:
And agreed on fastcast, but partly disagreed on MND. While Mnd does raise potency of cures, it requires hundreds of mnd to actually make a noticible contribution, and with the approach of higher levels and subs, some of that fastcast will be granted to those wishing to sub for cure IV.

[Economizer]

And agreed on fastcast, but partly disagreed on MND. While Mnd does raise potency of cures, it requires hundreds of mnd to actually make a noticible contribution, and with the approach of higher levels and subs, some of that fastcast will be granted to those wishing to sub for cure IV.

Granted, cure potency (which SMN can currently cap and RDM cannot) is a bigger issue then MND, but if you don't break a certain threshold of Mind, your cures will just be gimp in general. Coming Monday, assuming none of the gear got changed, Red Mage will be able to cap cure potency though, as it should considering that SMN currently can.

Sub RDM already gives the max amount of Fast Cast it ever will at even level 70. It is competitive with the buff from Light Arts when /SCH, but Red Mage effectively gets twice the Fast Cast of someone /RDM, not including gear and possible future traits for Red Mage main.

Granted, Red Mage sub is getting Sleep 2, Cure IV and Haste in coming updates, but Red Mage will still be twice as good at Fast Cast unless you are competing with a White Mage (for casting cures/debuff removal) or Scholar (for recasts).

[Crimson_Slasher]

Thats what i was getting at, was that they will still gain access to SOME fastcast, as well as those other great spells, so while they wont cure quite as hard, even at 90, my drk has quite a bit of mnd, only trailing behind in healing skill, they will still become better healers due to being able to cast faster, even if only minorly.

[saevel]

/BLM gives almost nothing that is useful on NMs, my BLM is 65 and rising, plan on getting it to 90 and getting Maats cap.

/BLM
Sleepga
Stun
Warp II
ES
Ele Enfeebles
/DRK
Stun
Abs-line (mostly for procing)
Abs-TP (building TP during initial phase of combat)
SoulEater (damage buff)
LastResort (Attack buff)

Between the two I prefer /DRK so I actually have a chance of building TP prior to the kill it order. Then SE LR CDC and keep going until its dead. /BLM is pretty much for sleepga and Warp II. Ele "enfeebles" are horrible, their so bad that the BLM's done even bother with them. ES ~might~ be useful, except nearly every HNM made in the past few years has flat % reduction in para potency, no matter how much MND you stack you'll never get a decent proc rate, if you can even land it. Blame SE on that one. Max potency Slow II is easy to land now adays, and Dia III always takes effect no matter what. So really, what exactly would I be using ES on, a Nuke once per 10 min.

RDM's just sub BLM for the reason they sub WHM, it's an old habit from 2004 when RDM's job was written in stone by everyone else and then handed to them.

[Shiyo]

Did you just say you melee T4 VW NM's on RDM?

L
O
L

My condolences to the people you play with.

Elemental seal(actually allows you to land slow/para on some NM's that aren't immune to it by having all their attacks being tp moves!), conserve MP, more MP(doesn't matter but w/e), more enfeebles. /BLM gets stun and /drk gets stun, there's no reason to ever sub DRK now. We only subbed it before because /blm didn't give us stun at 75.

Really though, the fact you just said you MELEE T4 VW NM's on rdm, and the fact you sub drk for stun is just lolllllll

[Economizer]

/BLM gives almost nothing that is useful on NMs, my BLM is 65 and rising, plan on getting it to 90 and getting Maats cap.

While I don't doubt in any way that /DRK is incredibly useful for Red Mage based on your arguments, I still doubt that /BLM isn't useful in some situations. I would imagine that /BLM gives you a higher base INT then /DRK, although I can't really test that right now. For landing black magic based enfeebles, /BLM sounds like the job, and /BLM can land multiple elemental enfeebles if your focus is damage over time using Red Mage.

While /DRK might be an incredibly useful sub for Red Mage, I think that /BLM is still useful for Red Mage.

[saevel]

While I don't doubt in any way that /DRK is incredibly useful for Red Mage based on your arguments, I still doubt that /BLM isn't useful in some situations. I would imagine that /BLM gives you a higher base INT then /DRK, although I can't really test that right now. For landing black magic based enfeebles, /BLM sounds like the job, and /BLM can land multiple elemental enfeebles if your focus is damage over time using Red Mage.

While /DRK might be an incredibly useful sub for Red Mage, I think that /BLM is still useful for Red Mage.

Its got it's uses, just not nearly as powerful as people claim. Its only a few INT higher I believe (off the cuff). Ele enfeebles are weak unless your talking a long slow stamina kill, then go for it. The only one I really liked was choke, -VIT can be amazing provided you can get it high enough. Unfortunately the highest we got so far is 150+ INT for 5hp/tick and -13 stat, if they would double that potency then it might be something to look into.

Otherwise the shining jewel from /BLM is Sleepga for when you need good crowd control options. ES + Sleepga together for a guaranteed pause.
-=Edit=-

Just checked, 3 INT different between the two. Honestly if I'm going mage mode then I prefer /SCH, offers more as a total package.

[Economizer]

Granted, yes, I don't think Black Mage should be the be all or end all sub for Red Mage when relying on a more aggressive stance.


The only one I really liked was choke, -VIT can be amazing provided you can get it high enough.

They probably should be stronger, but the fact that you can stack about half of them is pretty amazing in my opinion. But if you are going for stat down, Dark Knight is probably competitive in this area too. For damage over time, stacking three of these and Dia/Bio (in the ideal fight) is probably the best you'll get for DoT damage short of main SCH.


Just checked, 3 INT different between the two. Honestly if I'm going mage mode then I prefer /SCH, offers more as a total package.

Yeah, this is why I was careful not to mention nukes that much in my comment... the boost to skill will win any day when doing damage with elemental spells. Still, a 3 INT difference is pretty pitiful.

Sub Black Mage will still have its uses, but I've heard repeated things about Dark Knight being a great sub for Red Mage when you want a balance between attacking and being able to cast magic.

[saevel]

Granted, yes, I don't think Black Mage should be the be all or end all sub for Red Mage when relying on a more aggressive stance.


Sub Black Mage will still have its uses, but I've heard repeated things about Dark Knight being a great sub for Red Mage when you want a balance between attacking and being able to cast magic.

Well /DRK gives Attack Bonus II for +22 attack along with LR 15% boost for 3min and SE for -8% HP +5% damage per swing. Its a nice offensive boost for when your rushing in to kill whatever it was you were fighting. I've ridden SE the entire 60s before and the damage taken isn't anythings serious, we're RDMs.

[Economizer]

To be honest, I was trying to avoid this thread, considering how some of the stuff the OP said is pretty... non-agreeable, but this line of conversation and learning the finer points to the perks of differing subs is pretty nice.


I've ridden SE the entire 60s before and the damage taken isn't anythings serious, we're RDMs.

I was going to ask about survivability, I have a Red Mage friend who tends to go along with Ninja sub for survivability, and I was wondering how survivable Dark Knight sub can be (especially over complaints that Black Mage sub is not very helpful for that).

The only thing I can think of at the moment would be the key sword weapon skill you pick up (still don't understand why it wasn't native like AE is). Care to give your experience with Dark Knight survivability?

[saevel]

Depends on your group. /NIN is mostly useless nowadays with all the dangerous moves wiping or ignoring shadows. Its ok in a small group vs lessor NMs, but vs anything you'd take an alliance on it's useless for defense.

SE is dangerous, it can rapidly deplete your HP if your not careful. Being a RDM you can survive better then most other jobs except a PLD and possibly a WHM. So if anyone could ride it full time, it would be RDM.

[Swords]

Yeah, one of the advantages of using SE on a RDM however is they can cure themselves and reapply stoneskin to absorb the impact of the damage thankfully. Typically, I avoid using it during the TP/proc phase, but it's nice to throw it out there when your zerging or WSing.

/BLM while it HAS it's uses in crowd control settings, it's far less useful for single mob (or 1 or 2 add) fights, and I can't really justify having it for ES unless there is an absolute pivitol point you must Sleep/Bind/Gravity/Silence during a 2hr on something resistant that doesn't have some of the new stupid resist rates. Last time I even recall where needing ES for something like that was maybe Suzaku if you didn't have or sub /DRK at 75, or Ouryu Cometh which was disappointing imo cause I never got resisted on him /WHM and w/o a staff.

[saevel]

Honestly if people want to talk about resistances and stuff, /NIN is your best sub. Use the appropriate ninjitsu prior to casting a spell, its the equivalent of +30 mag accuracy to the right element.

[Shiyo]

I think I just died irl from this conversation, talking about melee as /drk vs T4 VW NM's., then melee as /NIN vs T4 VW NM's, then ninjitsu for mevas down...

Wow.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Honestly if people want to talk about resistances and stuff, /NIN is your best sub. Use the appropriate ninjitsu prior to casting a spell, its the equivalent of +30 mag accuracy to the right element.

Aren't those spells killer to actually not get resisted, or was that another ninjutsu.

[saevel]

Aren't those spells killer to actually not get resisted, or was that another ninjutsu.


The -elemental resist part is unresistable, like Dia / Bio effect. The monster can resist the damage component, and they will if your /NIN, but the -30 resistance will still take effect and last for long enough to get the job done. I believe it's something like 15 to 30 seconds, but I could be wrong there (leaning towards 15).

Basically you'd cast Huton: Ni then cast Paralyze I / II or Blizzard IV. Only element it won't work for is Dark based spells like Sleep / Drain / Aspir and the like.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

The -elemental resist part is unresistable, like Dia / Bio effect. The monster can resist the damage component, and they will if your /NIN, but the -30 resistance will still take effect and last for long enough to get the job done. I believe it's something like 15 to 30 seconds, but I could be wrong there (leaning towards 15).

Basically you'd cast Huton: Ni then cast Paralyze I / II or Blizzard IV. Only element it won't work for is Dark based spells like Sleep / Drain / Aspir and the like.

Oh, okay.. I avoided those spells because I hate taking 6 slots up with tools.

[saevel]

6 inventory slots for tools vs 8 slots for staves, take your pick.

The whole /NIN Ni like is really to overcome ele resistance when your in melee mode, gives you similar mag.acc to what you'd get from the HQ staves. And honestly it's not really 6, I doubt you'll ever need to use water or wind, maybe even skip on fire to focus on earth / ice / thunder (Slow / Para / Nuke Damage).