ATTN DEVS and COMMUNITY REPS: Mythics [Archive]

Staren

09-13-2011, 03:25 PM

I've heard from word of mouth that the Devs are saying they refuse to lower Alexandrite requirements for Mythics. I would like an honest response from a community rep on where they get off believing the 30,000 Alexandrite requirement in this environment (being post Abyssea where most linkshells are dead and empyreans are weekend to month long projects on average) is an acceptable requirement.

Major points I'd like addressed.

1) Cost in Gil: On most servers alexandrite sell for 10k and on Leviathan its starting to creep up to 12k wont be long til its higher. This means you think someone should have to pay 300 million gil on top of all the other requirements you've already put on this weapon. How can you justify this when for some jobs this is the only option for an ultimate endgame weapon. Whereas other jobs can work a weekend to get a weapon thats similar or completely outclasses this.

2) Cost in Time: Say someone doesnt have 300million gil lying around. An average salvage run (which we can only do one daily) gives about 60 alexandrite give or take. That means you expect someone to do Salvage everyday (almost 2hrs a day of their time which really brings into question how long you think we should play 11 everyday in order to fully enjoy all of its content) for 500 days almost 2 years just for 1 part of this mythic. The time in nyzul to get to floor 100 was we can be generous and say successful 5 floor climbs at a time 20 runs then you need 150,000 tokens with an average of 3k tokens a run so 50 days extra there. Need to have done all the assaults twice so 100 days there and those cant overlap with the nyzul days. You'd need to do einerbibble and get to Odin and get 100,000 ichor thats on average 50 runs so 25 weeks or or 175 days. Thats just the second quest. The first takes time to get all 3 ToAU kings down since they're not guaranteed to be up it took us 2 weeks to get Medusa. Then the third stage is ZNMS which requires picture farming for zeni, then building popsets for each path. At a max of 1000 zeni per vana day it starts to add up the time it takes to get pictures and pops and work your way to the final tiers to get your Mythic popset. So on average you're expecting 500 days for alexandrite almost a year and a half, 175 days for einerbibble, 150 days of assaults and nyzul together. Which really just puts the minimum time required for this to 500 days with a group of people working together on this everyday at least 2 hrs a day no vacations, holidays, or sick days. This is just ridiculous especially for mage jobs where this weapon is the only viable option for them since their empyrean is a dd weapon and their relic is in many cases outclassed by an elemental staff. So you're telling every whitemage and blackmage especially in this game you expect them to work for 500 days to get a minor upgrade on their weapon. Do you honestly expect this to be reasonable? ToAU when I went to the fanfests you held for it and WotG you kept repeating was the expansion for the casual gamer. What is casual about this? A casual player would probably only play 2hrs a night. So you're telling them they need to play at least 500 days of only this content to get a single item? I really want an honest answer from a DEV/Community rep saying you intended this to be this way and you expect this of people.

I'm getting fed up with this line of these requirements arent unreasonable. The only way they arent unreasonable is if I buy gil from RMT and am on all day everyday to do salvage and buy every peice of alexandrite that hits the market and I wont do that because A) its against the ToS and B) nothings worth over 8hrs effort everyday for months-to years on end. If I wanted to just play ToAU for 2 years I'd not need any of your other expansions and I'd probably have gotten bored and quit by now. We've been working modestly on my girlfriends mythic since our salvage group broke up about right before abyssea came out. Buying alexandrite and doing runs on a semi regular basis with breaks when people were burning out on salvage has only netted us 4k alexandrite. Merely 1/10th of the way.

I really need a DEV/Community Rep to tell me this is 100% acceptable to them and 100% what they intended. Maybe then I'll be able to finally give up on this game and pass this story on to G4 like the Pandemonium Warden fight I'm sure they'd love to hear FFXI has created unrealistic time expectations for rewards again and give you another spot in their show.

Kimble

09-13-2011, 03:27 PM

Waits for you know who to come in and say "Please dont attn devs in title, they read all the threads no need to do that!"

AldielQuetz

09-13-2011, 03:36 PM

They read all the threads? Really? Then why do some threads with huge numbers of viewers and 100+likes not get so much as a response?

Dijana

09-13-2011, 03:42 PM

They have stated before they wont lower the alex requirement. I dont recall which thread it was in (another one labelled similarly to this most likely) but they did also say they were going to revive salvage, much like they have done to dynamis already.

No idea on when this will happen, they will probably work through on updating the prior endgames in order of the expansions they came out with. Maybe AFTER they adjust salvage, this topic can be brought up and the devs will consider a reply more than just a 'no'.

Alhanelem

09-13-2011, 04:18 PM

Waits for you know who to come in and say "Please dont attn devs in title, they ready all the threads no need to do that!"Thanks for taking care of that. though I could have said it a bit more intelligibly.

Secondly, someone obviously didn't look at the 10 or so threads at the top of the page before posting this topic.

They read all the threads? Really? Then why do some threads with huge numbers of viewers and 100+likes not get so much as a response? A lack of a response doesn't mean the thread hasn't been read. For all the people accusing me of being Negative Nancy, I prefer the optimistic approach in this case. they only post responses to an issue when they have something to report, or when the answer has changed since the last time someone asked it.

Urteil

09-13-2011, 04:55 PM

I'm not sure what the salvage adjustment is, but the obtainment of Alexandrite needs to be looked at. As in the initial "Vision" (SE's favorite word!). The idea behind Mythic was more of a quest based weapon progression, instead of Quest Progression + Ancient Currency all over again.

Leonlionheart

09-13-2011, 05:37 PM

Make salvage gear good again

Boom, Alexandrite goes down to ~3k

Kimble

09-13-2011, 05:46 PM

Staren

09-13-2011, 10:16 PM

Secondly, someone obviously didn't look at the 10 or so threads at the top of the page before posting this topic.

To be completely honest I did. But why would I want to post in the other threads that are getting no response. Maybe if we fill the first 3-4 pages of these forums with threads complaining about how completely absurd the alexandrite requirement is for any player other than an old hnmls member because their bank can afford 300mil for one of these without going broke. Maybe then they'll realize its not just a few people in a thread. I bet if every single person who has an issue with it posted a thread title complaining with logical results we'd fill alot more than 2 pages and maybe then they'd pay attention. I honestly dont think they realize how high these requirements are to people without absurd amounts of gil. If they dont want to respond I'll be more than happy to pass it along to someone who will gladly sensationalize it into the news for them. With the way their profits have been going down since 14 I'm sure they'd be ok with a little more bad press. I'm seriously fed up with their working as intended attitude. However, something deep inside of me still hopes that maybe they do care and maybe they will be reasonable and see the average player who has been diligently working on one of these is having it take much too long to complete.

They should just in general lower the requirement, but if they're too proud to do that let us trade in pieces for alexandrite 5-15 pieces for a 15, 30-50 for a 25, 50-70 for a 35. That would help make this much more reasonable (as long as they dont lower drop rates). We're capped on drops for every zone except Zhaylom and when you're after alexandrite Zhaylom tends to drop the least. I've actually been holding onto doubles/triples of pieces in case they do something like this, or in case you need them for salvage upgrades. It would also give us something to do with the gear instead of it flooring. Like I said I really hope they're going to be more reasonable. I would like to see a Dev play this game with a normal players gil bank and with only 2-3 people to help him and work towards a mythic and spend only their free time doing it. I'd really like to see how far they make it before they want to quit the game.

Erecia

09-14-2011, 01:55 AM

I always thought the most elegant solution to the Alexandrite problem would be to reduce the amount you needed every time you beat the boss and use the teleporter on the last floor to leave, completing the mission successfully. Say reduce the total by 50-100 each time you do this, with a minimum of 5k Alexandries. Sure, this would take a long time to reap results, but it would encourage people to fight the bosses again along with giving a bonus to the entire group killed it, exactly the same as if they had beaten an assault or gotten nyzul or einherjar points.

Honestly, the Alexandrites situation confused me since day 1. Every other aspect of getting a mythic STRONGLY encourages team play (with the exception of the T3 items, but those being 100% drops removes any real issue there) but the Alexandries encourage screwing over everyone else in your group. When they announced they were lowering it from 50k, nobody facepalmed harder than I when they decided 30k was the right number.

Alhanelem

09-14-2011, 02:40 AM

To be completely honest I did. But why would I want to post in the other threads that are getting no response.Because posting a new thread doesn't increase the chances of a response. They only respond to issues and subjects for which they have news to give.

It makes a lot more sense to participate in an already active discussion (well, in most cases).

Staren

09-14-2011, 05:27 AM

Because posting a new thread doesn't increase the chances of a response. They only respond to issues and subjects for which they have news to give.

It makes a lot more sense to participate in an already active discussion (well, in most cases).

I used to have the same faith in SE that you did until people started getting items like Cheese Sandwiches added to the game instead of getting real answers on actual important stuff from SquareEnix. At this point I believe their mentality is whatever is in their face they'll handle otherwise it'll be something they let us talk about for years until they finally do something about it. That's the SE we've known and seen for years. You must be new here.

Rearden

09-14-2011, 05:29 AM

Nah, he's just the pseudo community rep. Didn't you know he is a FORUM MODERATOR

Darkwizardzin

09-14-2011, 05:46 AM

I'm sure that once they revamp salvage (just how they revamped dynamis) Alexandrite will be easier to get. Until then I wouldn't expect much.

Staren

09-14-2011, 06:12 AM

Alhanelem

09-14-2011, 06:39 AM

The revamp for Dynamis -INCREASED- prices on coinsOn shiva, prices equalized. All currencies are like 10-12k, instead of bronze being like 16k and byne being 6k. Overall there was no increase on our server.

Elexia

09-14-2011, 06:42 AM

Navuh

09-14-2011, 06:45 AM

Man, I wish prices on valefor were just creeping up to 10k. Prices right now are mostly around 20k, and if you are extremely lucky, they are 15k, but those are rare and get snatched up really fast. Thankfully, I got a few friends who are willing to do salvage with me, and let me have the alex drops. But still, it is pretty daunting.

I can't wait to see the salvage adjustments. Hell, even if they made the purses from boss 100% drop, it would be nice. Right now, I am working on other requirments before starting on alex stage to hope I can wait out the adjustments.

Suirieko

09-14-2011, 07:00 AM

The revamp for Dynamis -INCREASED- prices on coins, byne bills are double to three times their old values, and decreased availability. I don't want them to do salvage like they did dyna. I have no want to do dyna after the changes. They need to increase drop rates, provide an alternate source to get alexandrite, or decrease required amount. Its literally the three options they have. If they dont increase drop rates prices arent going to fall even if more people start doing salvage due to the number of people who are sitting on alexandrite looking to finish a mythic and when they need 30000 its not something they're going to finish quickly. If they provide a way for people who are doing salvage now to trade drops for alex or a way for them to get more alex on a run then it would help but it'd need to be a significant amount, and if they decreased requirements the system could go on as is with less stress due to the a lowered requirement 10,000-15,000 should be sufficient and at least put the mythics on par money wise (even though the extra quests and work still make them more difficult) with relics.

On Phoenix, the prices for currency initially increased (Mainly Byne, since it went up to 11K from 6K. Bronzepieces and whiteshells basically stayed the same at 13K~15K), due to panic from the new dynamis system and the lack of coins without the staggering, but now that everyone knows how staggering works in Dynamis, the price for currencies have been steadily falling as more and more currencies are entering the market.

Personally, I'm just waiting on the salvage overhaul before I start to look into the possibility of mythic upgrade. SE did say that they weren't going to change the 30K Alexandrites requirement, which is discouraging in a way, but the fact that they made the final three ZNM Trophies 100% drop is pretty promising (because face it, making it only 10% after all the work is sheer ridiculous and was one of the main reason I wasn't focusing on mythic).

I'm hoping we'll see a similar changes with Alexandrites and Salvage: Making it so that Salvage can be soloable (or lowmanned) by anyone, but there will be new stuff that will be pretty challenging and will require a somewhat decent size.

I am also hoping that they do /not/ have a stagger system for Salvage at all.

Staren

09-14-2011, 07:05 AM

Suirieko

09-14-2011, 07:07 AM

@Suirieko mind giving me a link to the stagger stuff for dyna? I've not looked into it because I've only heard bad things about new dyna. I'd like to get this information and give it a try to gain a fresh perspective on it. The group I went in with initially didnt stagger once with a wide range of jobs.

Dynamis Weakness Trigger Conditions

Enemy job: RNG THF MNK BST NIN - JOB ABILITY / Any enemy-targetable ability or physical Blood Pact: Rage (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Blood_Pact:_Rage), except pet commands and possibly Ventriloquy (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ventriloquy). Pet TP moves (via "Ready" command) will work.
Enemy job: PLD WAR SAM DRG DRK - Any WEAPON SKILL and some Puppetmaster (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Puppetmaster) Maneuvers, possibly based on current Automaton frame's deciding maneuvers for Weapon Skills
Enemy job: WHM BLM SMN BRD RDM - MAGIC / Any magical Blood Pact: Rage (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Blood_Pact:_Rage) or Blood Pact: Ward (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Blood_Pact:_Ward) such as Somnolence, or enemy-targeted spell with the possible exception of cures and Odin (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Odin).
You are able to proc during an enemy's 2 hour ability, it seems you can also proc during spell casting
The number of Time Extensions obtained affect your proc rate:

0-2 ~> None
3 ~> Low proc rate / Blue - Potentially transient Amnesia, or nothing.
4 ~> Medium proc rate / Yellow - Terror/Stops 2-Hour/Able to Re-use 2-Hour
5 ~> High proc rate / Red - Terror/Stops 2-Hour/Unable to Re-use 2-Hour

source: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Weakness_Targeting

Sotek

09-14-2011, 07:14 AM

The revamp for Dynamis -INCREASED- prices on coins, byne bills are double to three times their old values, and decreased availability.

What? I can't look in a Bazaar without seeing coins these days. The Dynamis revamp made currency much more available. The only coins that seem to have raised in price are Byne bills, and the rest dropped in price by 4k so I'll ignore the 4k rise in price on them.

A Salvage revamp would do wonders for Alexandrite. Currently we have something like half a dozen Bazaars stocking Alexandrite with well over a dozen seeking to buy it, the price is certainly not going to rise if we have more Bazaars to buy from, if anything it will fall dramatically. If SE announced right now that they'd be doubling the drop rate of Alexandrite, you wouldn't go out and buy more Alexandrite for 12k, you'd at least wait to see how the update affects the pricing and the amount you can farm, and that alone should start pushing the price down before the update even goes live (for example, the price of Phalanx sky rocketed when it was announced for Paladin, think that but in reverse).

Staren

09-14-2011, 07:21 AM

What? I can't look in a Bazaar without seeing coins these days. The Dynamis revamp made currency much more available. The only coins that seem to have raised in price are Byne bills, and the rest dropped in price by 4k so I'll ignore the 4k rise in price on them.

A Salvage revamp would do wonders for Alexandrite. Currently we have something like half a dozen Bazaars stocking Alexandrite with well over a dozen seeking to buy it, the price is certainly not going to rise if we have more Bazaars to buy from, if anything it will fall dramatically.

As you point out 3 types of coins they all pretty much evened out, some dropped some rose. Though the prices I see on whiteshells and bronzes are the same on our server as they were before the dynamis update and the bynes have gone up by 5-7k. So -no- adding more to the pool (for if you think that theres an overabundance of coins) will not drastically lower the price of alexandrite. If anything it would stay the same seeing as its 1 item everyone building a mythic needs not 3 types of coin certain people need for certain relics. Also this means you're saying that someone should buy a large portion of their alexandrite instead of earning it? So does SE expect us to buy alexandrite and that it should be a far off goal if we cant avoid the 300mil price tag? None of these reasons make me excited for a revamp unless they provide ways that dont involve buying 75+% of our alexandrite to finish it in a reasonable amount of time.

Staren

09-14-2011, 07:23 AM

Suirieko

09-14-2011, 07:30 AM

What? I can't look in a Bazaar without seeing coins these days. The Dynamis revamp made currency much more available. The only coins that seem to have raised in price are Byne bills, and the rest dropped in price by 4k so I'll ignore the 4k rise in price on them.

A Salvage revamp would do wonders for Alexandrite. Currently we have something like half a dozen Bazaars stocking Alexandrite with well over a dozen seeking to buy it, the price is certainly not going to rise if we have more Bazaars to buy from, if anything it will fall dramatically. If SE announced right now that they'd be doubling the drop rate of Alexandrite, you wouldn't go out and buy more Alexandrite for 12k, you'd at least wait to see how the update affects the pricing and the amount you can farm, and that alone should start pushing the price down before the update even goes live (for example, the price of Phalanx sky rocketed when it was announced for Paladin, think that but in reverse).

As it stands, in Phoenix, bazaars selling Alexandrites are extremely rare, since hardly anyone save a few groups do Salvage, and those that do sell them usually sells at 12K to as high as 25K. With market like this, it can't even support a mythic, let alone several.

Alhanelem

09-14-2011, 07:49 AM

on GE, weakness targeting for dynamis is on http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Dynamis

But apparently more people look for the specific subject, so I transferred it over to our http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Weakness_Targeting page.

Atomic_Skull

09-14-2011, 02:31 PM

If they have you have to do salvage again to augment salvage gear IE: Kill NM x times to get upgrade or even get 15s, 25s, 35s to break into tatters, and the augments are really good, salvage will be active again and more people will do it meaning more alex in the market.

I don't think they'll be doing augmented gear with Salvage seeing that they scuttled their plans for that with Relic gear and swicthed to +2 when people almost rioted over it.

Atomic_Skull

09-14-2011, 02:34 PM

Also this whole gil being the ticket into an elite piece of gear is just sickening. There are alot of obvious gil buyers walking around with relics and it taints the value/credit/respect given to people who have them.

How are they obvious? Because they have more gil than you?

There are lots of ways to easily make mass amounts of gil that don't involve buying it. All it takes is a brain, some research and a complete immunity to boredom and you too can be filthy rich.

Tigeriris

09-14-2011, 11:25 PM

Elexia

09-15-2011, 12:50 AM

Everyone wants a great End Game Weapon-Item. But if you truly do not have what it takes, maybe you should be rethinking what you want out of this game and how you're going to get it. As Atomic_Skull said, not everyone who has tons of gil is some gilbuyer or anything of the sort. They just know how to make gil. Not to beat a dead horse, but gil is much easier to make these days than it ever was.

You don't have to play "a lot" to have a lot. You just need to spend your in game time a bit more wisely. My playtime is roughly 530 days, which is quite a bit. I started playing a few months after CoP release. Made 2 relics in 1 year and 7 months, from just making gil and buying coin.

Average players should not be able to obtain these items. Thats what empyreans are for.

I sincerely hope you're trolling my good sir!

Let's tear this down bit by bit:

You don't have to play "a lot" to have a lot. You just need to spend your in game time a bit more wisely.

Yes you do. In regards to mythics you have to obtain captain by recording assaults in a book, you get 3 tags a day, 4 if you hold onto one and let it refresh fully, which means you can only do at maximum 4 assaults in a day, then 1 every consecutive day unless you're willing to let your assault tags fully refresh which includes getting an extra tag (or two if already captain) which alone puts you at a week's waiting time.

Now add in the fact there's 50 (?) assaults, that segment alone is a lot of playtime no matter how assertive you are. This is ignoring the fairly sparse Alexandrite collection phase, The Ampoule collection phase and the Nyzul Token Phase (which takes assault tags also, btw!)

So yes, in order to get "a lot" even post Abyssea you do need to play this game a lot.

I started playing a few months after CoP release. Made 2 relics in 1 year and 7 months, from just making gil and buying coin.

Good for you, relics are easy compared to Mythics, which is what this topic is about. Where's your 2 Mythics in 1 year and 7 months?

Average players should not be able to obtain these items.

MMOs that start making a fine line between "average" and 'worthy" players is a dead one.

Staren

09-15-2011, 12:52 AM

First and foremost every server has known gilbuyers who pay more than items are worth without batting an eye. People who earn their money rarely do this. As the saying goes a fool and his money are soon parted. Secondly, praising people who can farm gil and bashing empyrean holders in the same sentence is oxymoronic. You can farm the gil for most relics in 35 fell cleave parties. About the same effort most people spent on their first tahrongi empy lowman. So whats the difference in earning between them? What makes one a more casual player effort than the other. Thirdly, comparing your ability at farming gil for a relic to making a mythic is either a sad joke or an insult if you really meant it to show how much work you did to earn it. If you'd read any of this thread you'd know the pithy of bazaars that sell alex compared to the amount that sell currency makes relics easier to get by a factor of ten easy not to mention you only have to get half as many coins as we do alex in the first place. So when you three man a mythic in less than a year and a half I'll take your "effort" and skill level more seriously, than a gil bought relic.

Alhanelem

09-15-2011, 01:03 AM

MMOs that start making a fine line between "average" and 'worthy" players is a dead one. Guess this is a dead one then? The relics and mythics were specifically designed to not be realistically obtainable by everyone. I started a relic and will probably never finish it. Lots of people start relics and mythics and never finish them. Most people simply don't have the time when there are lots of other things to do in the game. If you're not a "hardcore" player, your chances of obtaining one of these weapons is lower. That's just the way things are. By all means, attempt one if you want. But every MMO has highly difficult to get items that are beyond the reach of some players. That isn't a "mark" of a dead MMO, though.

One little thing though. I think the statement should be "casual" and "hardcore" players, not "average" and "worthy." The former suggests the amount of time spent, while the latter suggests a player's skill level. Casual players can still be "worthy" players.

Shoko

09-15-2011, 05:34 AM

Guess this is a dead one then? The relics and mythics were specifically designed to not be realistically obtainable by everyone. I started a relic and will probably never finish it. Lots of people start relics and mythics and never finish them. Most people simply don't have the time when there are lots of other things to do in the game. If you're not a "hardcore" player, your chances of obtaining one of these weapons is lower. That's just the way things are. By all means, attempt one if you want. But every MMO has highly difficult to get items that are beyond the reach of some players. That isn't a "mark" of a dead MMO, though.

One little thing though. I think the statement should be "casual" and "hardcore" players, not "average" and "worthy." The former suggests the amount of time spent, while the latter suggests a player's skill level. Casual players can still be "worthy" players.

Sorry, but I'm going to disagree with most of what you said. Not because it's "wrong", but because the times have changed. It's not 2008 or 2009 anymore, we are in 2011, soon to be 2012, post Abyssea.

It's nice to tell everyone a canned "The relics and mythics were specifically designed to not be realistically obtainable by everyone." speech, but along with the times changing, the method of acquisition of relic has also changed. If relic was better than empyreans right now at this moment, you'd see a large pool of relic holders, close to equal with emps. That's simply how easy Dynamis is now despite complaints about the zones.

Everyone assumes that Dynamis is simply unbearable now, but most of those same people are non-BST soloists or duo/trio crews. A team of 6~8 hitting Dynamis every single day can snipe 200~400 in currency every single run with full TE. Even BST/DNC soloists can make it out with 60~150 currency per run easy, in any zone (try it if you doubt me). I've personally seen people on my server and on BG pump out relics in 1-2 months, starting from scratch and buying close to or no extra currency at all. This does not require you to be "hardcore." It requires you to only have 2 hours to devote to Dynamis each day (and 3-5 friends for very good runs), bare minimum (which is slightly more than the average playtime of a gamer with some semblance of a life outside of MMO gaming).

At this moment, comparisons of mythic weapons to relic or empyrean weapons is very foolish, and very poorly thought out. Not only is there a slew of of assaults, Einherjar, and bosses that you need to kill, but even staying on all of this daily and hitting the requirements hard is 6~8 months of your time minimum. And for that, I honestly feel that these requirements should stay they same, with minor changes that allow for more ampoules and tokens, and tags that should have a fast uncapped output, similar to traverser stones.

Alexandrite in itself is an entirely different story. Right now, this is the hardest and most outdated portion of mythic requirements, period. Three people in Dynamis can have a crappy run and still make it out with 150 currency on average. The same three people can have a perfect run in most of the Salvage zones and exit with 15~50 Alexandrite (50 including the slaughter of all of the Archaic Machinery as well as assuming the Mega Boss does not drop a bag... with TH7+). Something is very wrong if you can sit there for a moment and visualize this.

----------------

I read a post on the first page stating that updated Salvage gear would mean Alex dropping back to "3k" levels. Even that is very unreasonable, as I can't see updated Salvage gear dropping Alex below 6k, due to the fact that +2 armor is not only good, but it's EXTREMELY casual friendly to obtain. In my opinion, Alex should really be cut down to 10 or 15k, or have all Mega Bosses drop a bag 100% of the time or a combination of the two. All of the legwork you have to do prior to even turning in any Alexandrite and after the fact more than justifies the reduction and/or ease of obtaining Alex.

P.S.: I'm that type of guy that Staren mentioned... sitting on a mountain of gil, waiting for Alex to drop inevitably so I can finish up this now 2 1/2 year endevour. Like hell I'm paying 10~12k per Alex, however.

Rearden

09-15-2011, 05:46 AM

Great post/contribution. Should lower total and increase drop rates

Byrth

09-15-2011, 05:49 AM

In my opinion, the problem with Mythics and the Alexandrite requirement has absolutely nothing to do with the price. If SE had made a part of the quest "trade 300 million gil," I would take no issue with that.

The problem with it is that it puts you in direct competition for a limited resource. Every other part of the Mythic quest is best completed with a group of friends. It would have been entirely viable to have "Mythic Linkshells" that basically just spam ToAU content so every member can build a Mythic if it weren't for the Alexandrite requirement. As it is, people who want mythics are best off discouraging others from pursuing them and calling on all the favors they've got to get the requirements done. It's very much not pleasant, while casually knocking out requirements with an enthusiastic group of friends could have been fun.

Alhanelem

09-15-2011, 06:10 AM

Sorry, but I'm going to disagree with most of what you said. Not because it's "wrong", but because the times have changed. It's not 2008 or 2009 anymore, we are in 2011, soon to be 2012, post Abyssea.

It's nice to tell everyone a canned "The relics and mythics were specifically designed to not be realistically obtainable by everyone." speech, but along with the times changing, the method of acquisition of relic has also changed. If relic was better than empyreans right now at this moment, you'd see a large pool of relic holders, close to equal with emps. That's simply how easy Dynamis is now despite complaints about the zones.

Everyone assumes that Dynamis is simply unbearable now, but most of those same people are non-BST soloists or duo/trio crews. A team of 6~8 hitting Dynamis every single day can snipe 200~400 in currency every single run with full TE. Even BST/DNC soloists can make it out with 60~150 currency per run easy, in any zone (try it if you doubt me). I've personally seen people on my server and on BG pump out relics in 1-2 months, starting from scratch and buying close to or no extra currency at all. This does not require you to be "hardcore." It requires you to only have 2 hours to devote to Dynamis each day (and 3-5 friends for very good runs), bare minimum (which is slightly more than the average playtime of a gamer with some semblance of a life outside of MMO gaming).

At this moment, comparisons of mythic weapons to relic or empyrean weapons is very foolish, and very poorly thought out. Not only is there a slew of of assaults, Einherjar, and bosses that you need to kill, but even staying on all of this daily and hitting the requirements hard is 6~8 months of your time minimum. And for that, I honestly feel that these requirements should stay they same, with minor changes that allow for more ampoules and tokens, and tags that should have a fast uncapped output, similar to traverser stones.

Alexandrite in itself is an entirely different story. Right now, this is the hardest and most outdated portion of mythic requirements, period. Three people in Dynamis can have a crappy run and still make it out with 150 currency on average. The same three people can have a perfect run in most of the Salvage zones and exit with 15~50 Alexandrite (50 including the slaughter of all of the Archaic Machinery as well as assuming the Mega Boss does not drop a bag... with TH7+). Something is very wrong if you can sit there for a moment and visualize this.

----------------

I read a post on the first page stating that updated Salvage gear would mean Alex dropping back to "3k" levels. Even that is very unreasonable, as I can't see updated Salvage gear dropping Alex below 6k, due to the fact that +2 armor is not only good, but it's EXTREMELY casual friendly to obtain. In my opinion, Alex should really be cut down to 10 or 15k, or have all Mega Bosses drop a bag 100% of the time or a combination of the two. All of the legwork you have to do prior to even turning in any Alexandrite and after the fact more than justifies the reduction and/or ease of obtaining Alex.

P.S.: I'm that type of guy that Staren mentioned... sitting on a mountain of gil, waiting for Alex to drop inevitably so I can finish up this now 2 1/2 year endevour. Like hell I'm paying 10~12k per Alex, however.I'll agree with you on certain points, like that farming dynamis is much easier now for the average person, but it is still a huge time commitment. so all in all I have to disagree with, but I do respect, your opinion.

Consider Mythics as well. You still need more than one or two buddies for einherjar, it's almost impossible to get anyone other than a close friend to help with things like the near east beastmen leaders, Assault still requires 3 people and you have to complete all of them at least twice (I stil haven't finished all of them and I've been playing since soon after the US release), nyzul is easy but takes a long time to get the number of tokens. Even if alexandrite are reduced, mythics still wouldn't exactly be a joke. You are definitely right that things have shifted and the level of difficulty isn't what it once was- but the time required is still there. I certainly wouldn't argue against a reduction of the alexandrite requirement, but whatever amount they set is still going to require a significant time investment.

Do you think there's a problem with having some rare and exclusive weapons? Lots of games have things in them that few people ever see (The ending of Ninja Gaiden 1, for instance :p or the super secret message in Metroid Fusion that requires an extremely difficult trick to reach (http://www.metroid2002.com/fusion/other_secret_message.php)). They are never absolutely necessary, of course, just the mark of an experienced or in some cases partially insane player. I'm just asking for your perspective on this. Maybe the analogy isn't great, but I don't personally have a problem with having things in video games that not everyone will successfully obtain or access.

Shoko

09-15-2011, 06:16 AM

Competition is also a problem, and I agree. However, it's not as big an issue as the actual current output of Alex across servers. Multiple people were doing mythics between 08~09 and still completing them, with prices as low as 2~4k per Alexandrite. As soon as everyone migrated from ToAU to Abyssea, obtaining a Alexandrite suddenly and drastically became a crazy endevour for the hours put in, even with minimal competition.

I can count 3 people on my newly merged server that's actively purchasing Alexandrite @12k+ -- it's obvious I'm on the discouraged side on buying at those prices, but not only don't I wish to spend my days farming more gil, I no longer have the time. I agree with the end however. Calling in favors to lowman all of the other events was a very fun ride.

Byrth

09-15-2011, 06:21 AM

Shoko

09-15-2011, 06:48 AM

I'll agree with you on certain points, like that farming dynamis is much easier now for the average person, but it is still a huge time commitment. so all in all I have to disagree with, but I do respect, your opinion.

It's only a huge commitment if you have other obligations in game. if it's your sole purpose in game to make currency for your relic, it's now very "casual" friendly. The real problem I see is that people simply haven't caught on to using parties of 6 dedicated friends.

Consider Mythics as well. You still need more than one or two buddies for einherjar, it's almost impossible to get anyone other than a close friend to help with things like the near east beastmen leaders, Assault still requires 3 people and you have to complete all of them at least twice (I stil haven't finished all of them and I've been playing since soon after the US release), nyzul is easy but takes a long time to get the number of tokens. Even if alexandrite are reduced, mythics still wouldn't exactly be a joke. You are definitely right that things have shifted and the level of difficulty isn't what it once was- but the time required is still there. I certainly wouldn't argue against a reduction of the alexandrite requirement, but whatever amount they set is still going to require a significant time investment.

Considering Mythics indeed-- however, there is no event now that you cannot do more efficiently than before to cut corners. The only hindrance now is the time and character restrictions placed on entry.

1) Beastman Kings can now be done with a party of 4~6, and no longer with a dedicated PLD, if your people are smart and well geared. Salvage Bosses are still a 3 man joke as they've always been. Odin is also now much easier than before with inclusion of Emp weapons, but still very annoying to build up feathers to the fight. 6-8 can kill him no problem.

2) Lost and Found is the only "difficult" assault now. I could perhaps name another 4 assaults that aren't difficult, but annoying. Every other of the 45ish assaults are a complete joke for a team of 3 (for example, First Lieutenant assaults-- literally completed all of them in no less than 2 minutes a piece). It's now a hindrance to only have 4-5 tags an event run.

3) A smart and speedy 6 man team can shoot up 10 floors per Nyzul Isle run no problem, this including each 20th floor boss. This indirectly leads to more tokens than when it was 75 cap. Also a hindrance of tags now as well.

4) ZNM bosses are all a joke, 3-5 man no problem.

If Alexandrite was reduced, I agree that it would still be a semi difficult endevour due to the time required to do everything else, but the time invested would be justified upon completion. I'm saying this after the fact that I've done just about everything else (all I need left is 14 assaults and Tyger's Tail, in addition to 15k Alex).

Do you think there's a problem with having some rare and exclusive weapons? Lots of games have things in them that few people ever see (The ending of Ninja Gaiden 1, for instance :p or the super secret message in Metroid Fusion that requires an extremely difficult trick to reach (http://www.metroid2002.com/fusion/other_secret_message.php)). They are never absolutely necessary, of course, just the mark of an experienced or in some cases partially insane player. I'm just asking for your perspective on this. Maybe the analogy isn't great, but I don't personally have a problem with having things in video games that not everyone will successfully obtain or access.

I have zero problems at all with having something extremely difficult to obtain! That's the spice of life and your right if you wish to go for it. Ironically, I know deep down that the mythic I'm working for (Tizona) really doesn't add as much a dynamic to my job over the Emp I already have for it, but doing just for the "Holy crap, this guy has that weapon!" Factor is still awesome.

It's so sad that there are zero NA created Tizonas (or any other mythic outside of one Yagrush) on my server. Ain't even mad at JP for pulling for their own.

Staren

09-15-2011, 06:57 AM

Do you think there's a problem with having some rare and exclusive weapons?

I do when the only viable endgame weapon option for mage jobs is their mythic weapon. If the Relic or Empyrean weapon for mages were actually useful for something other than dd mages or looking pretty I'd have no problem whatsoever with the mythics being the hardest weapons to get and just a nice to have for all jobs but for endgame weapons its the only one worth having. Not like others that can say relics > empy > mythic or empy > relic > mythic some jobs are mythic > relic > empy. If SE had not setup this imbalance it'd be fair.

Shoko

09-15-2011, 07:00 AM

Well, if you're expecting the prices to drop . . . you may be waiting a while. They likely aren't reworking ToAU this patch and (in my opinion) when they do it will be incredibly unlikely that prices for Alex will actually drop. Lets say that they double supply and halve the requirements, then encourage people to do Salvage/rejuvenate Einherjar, NI, etc.

How many of the people doing Salvage again are going to start their own mythic?

How many people does it take to completely use up the Alexandrite supply on a server at 3k? 5k? 9k? 12k?

We have maybe 6 serious buyers (including NA and JP) on Lakshmi at the moment, and the price is 10k each with an upward bend.

Eventually I might fold and finish up, but I'm still hopeful. Even if a lot of people restart collecting Alex, it will certainly be plentiful again if they rejuvenate Salvage to the level it was 3 years ago.

My only regret was seriously not collecting Alexandrite early when I started working on Mythic, because it was literally everywhere. My server also has a VERY LARGE Japanese base, many of which had a number of people working on a Mythic weapon (most of whom are finished now, and I've seen well over 30 different mythic weapons here, when it was Carbuncle only). Still, Alex was as low as 2.5k then.

Ah well.

Tigeriris

09-15-2011, 07:12 AM

Forgive me, I just assumed that most players would have been finished with Nyzul Isle, Einherjar, Assault-Salvage bar a few more runs to cap points. ToAU has been out how long? Barring new players, which we have very few of.

Yes, not everyone has a nyzul einherjar salvage group etc. But someone who is planning on getting a mythic weapon never did these things before? If not for the gear drops alone.

Also started on a mythic a little over a month ago, already at 5k alexandrite. How's that for a start? Maybe 2 in 1 year and 7 months.

Byrth

09-15-2011, 08:14 AM

I started two months ago and have >26000, but I also have no qualms with just buying them and have gotten lucky finding people selling.

Demonofhunger

09-15-2011, 09:49 AM

I'll just repost what I said before:

Who actually expects to ever complete a Mythic again?

I don't know about your server, but on my server Alexandrites are never in anyone's Bazaar and when they pop up every three months on one guy's mule it's ten for 30K each. Also, LSs aren't doing any of the events for equipment any more like ZNM mobs and Assaults and Einherjar and Nyzul and Salvage, and Emp. weapons are better in almost all ways. The very idea that Mythic weapons will ever be achieved outside of Mog Bonanza is laughable in light of the evidence.

If you didn't have 150 million gil back in 2008 when people were doing these events, a Mythic will never be yours. That is just the way the game stands.

Adding injury to insult, if you beat the impossible odds and actually could get an entire linkshell to do Salvage and funnel alexandrites to just you for six months so only you could get a Mythic, you are then expected to spend months and months of soloing Magian Trials to upgrade them.

I mean, if the developers are looking into spending any time on improving the mechanics of obtaining a Mythic, they should just make a vendor that sells alexandrites for 5K each. At least then someone might be able to convince a small group of friends to do the assaults, ZNMs, NMs, and other events (or at least be able to dual-box or three-box these requirements) and might have a chance of getting a Mythic before the servers shut down.

Staren

09-16-2011, 01:20 PM

Anyone know how the PW fight made the news was it just Fusionx's blog post or did people send it in/have connections. I'm seriously interested in passing the 500 day requirement (actually putting in the work effort for it yourself instead of buying) for a minor upgrade item on to someone who might be able to put it somewhere public for SE to have to deal with since they're not really even dignifying people concerned about this with a response other than working as intended. Instead we get updates about pup and bst. I mean we all get it SE feels bad that they made two cruddy jobs that are mostly left to solo and they're talking to the less fortunate of the family right now. But there's a large injustice in the endgame weapon category that they're completely ignoring just because they don't want to admit they set the bar a little too high for players here in 2011.

Rearden

09-16-2011, 01:43 PM

Could just email them and use the english language/grammar/sentence structure/coherent ideas/impartial logic as your guide.

Juri_Licious

09-16-2011, 07:31 PM

300 Mil? that's absolutely absurd.

Sotek

09-17-2011, 01:39 AM

I do hope that if you took the time to lock my thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/14762-Alexandrite), you took the time to take the OP to the devs, SE.

Anyone know how the PW fight made the news was it just Fusionx's blog post or did people send it in/have connections. I'm seriously interested in passing the 500 day requirement (actually putting in the work effort for it yourself instead of buying) for a minor upgrade item on to someone who might be able to put it somewhere public for SE to have to deal with since they're not really even dignifying people concerned about this with a response other than working as intended. Instead we get updates about pup and bst. I mean we all get it SE feels bad that they made two cruddy jobs that are mostly left to solo and they're talking to the less fortunate of the family right now. But there's a large injustice in the endgame weapon category that they're completely ignoring just because they don't want to admit they set the bar a little too high for players here in 2011.

I think it would be very hard to get anyone to seriously chase that up.
Pandemonium Warder involved people playing non stop for something like a day and not even winning, even if you're going to be stupid and only obtain Alexandrite through Salvage (though given the rarity in Bazaars it's not a completely unreasonable thing to do), that's only 100 minutes per day. Taking on Pandemonium Warder was sheer ridiculousness, playing a MMO for 100 minutes a day sounds like exactly what a MMO is meant to be. You're certainly not going to put yourself in hospital trying to obtain 30,000 Alexandrite.

Simplest solution I can think of for Alexandrite is to turn it into a points reward system like Cruor, lets say Remnants Tokens. That way rather than Alexandrite being a competitive element of Duties, Tasks and Deeds, it becomes something you can do as a team. Obviously Alexandrite would already be left in the game and we'd all be stuck with stacks upon stacks of worthless stones, unless SE adds an option to Zasshal (or Ghanraam) to trade Remnants Tokens for Alexandrite. You'd still be in competition with others to buy from Bazaars, but at the very least you can triple your Alexandrite drop rate per run.

Just to flesh it out a bit more (and repost my stacking system which has pointlessly been locked):
-Every mob in Salvage drops ~100 Remnants Tokens, Gears/etc. ~150, NMs ~250, zone bosses ~500.
-Every 100 Tokens can be traded to Zasshal for 1 Alexandrite.
-100 Alexandrite can be traded for a 100 piece Alexandrite.
-Every 10,000 Tokens can be traded for a 100 piece Alexandrite.

With that, every Salvage run would earn you alone about the same 70 Alexandrite average, but every individual earns that same amount. The Salvage aspect of the quest becomes a collaborative effort like the rest and the amount of Alexandrite in Bazaars should at least triple. If you have friends simply helping you with Alexandrite, you earn at least 210 Alexandrite a run, if not you're earning what you currently get before splitting. A win win situation, no?
It still wouldn't remove the fact that the Alexandrite section is ridiculously disproportionate to the rest (150,000 Nyzul tokens needed, 3,000,000 Remnants tokens...), but it's the best I can come up with for the given situation.

So, SE, feel free to lock and ignore this now.

Alhanelem

09-17-2011, 03:28 AM

Anyone know how the PW fight made the newsWho would know better than SE what happens on SE's servers? They probably had a flag set up so they would know when certain monsters (e.g. AV or PW) were defeated.

Taint2

09-17-2011, 07:25 AM

Who would know better than SE what happens on SE's servers? They probably had a flag set up so they would know when certain monsters (e.g. AV or PW) were defeated.

They didn't kill it.

Byrth

09-17-2011, 07:32 AM

De-tails... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIOliBDmUJo)

Staren

09-17-2011, 11:24 AM

I do hope that if you took the time to lock my thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/14762-Alexandrite), you took the time to take the OP to the devs, SE.

I think it would be very hard to get anyone to seriously chase that up.
Pandemonium Warder involved people playing non stop for something like a day and not even winning, even if you're going to be stupid and only obtain Alexandrite through Salvage (though given the rarity in Bazaars it's not a completely unreasonable thing to do), that's only 100 minutes per day. Taking on Pandemonium Warder was sheer ridiculousness, playing a MMO for 100 minutes a day sounds like exactly what a MMO is meant to be. You're certainly not going to put yourself in hospital trying to obtain 30,000 Alexandrite.

Simplest solution I can think of for Alexandrite is to turn it into a points reward system like Cruor, lets say Remnants Tokens. That way rather than Alexandrite being a competitive element of Duties, Tasks and Deeds, it becomes something you can do as a team. Obviously Alexandrite would already be left in the game and we'd all be stuck with stacks upon stacks of worthless stones, unless SE adds an option to Zasshal (or Ghanraam) to trade Remnants Tokens for Alexandrite. You'd still be in competition with others to buy from Bazaars, but at the very least you can triple your Alexandrite drop rate per run.

Just to flesh it out a bit more (and repost my stacking system which has pointlessly been locked):
-Every mob in Salvage drops ~100 Remnants Tokens, Gears/etc. ~150, NMs ~250, zone bosses ~500.
-Every 100 Tokens can be traded to Zasshal for 1 Alexandrite.
-100 Alexandrite can be traded for a 100 piece Alexandrite.
-Every 10,000 Tokens can be traded for a 100 piece Alexandrite.

With that, every Salvage run would earn you alone about the same 70 Alexandrite average, but every individual earns that same amount. The Salvage aspect of the quest becomes a collaborative effort like the rest and the amount of Alexandrite in Bazaars should at least triple. If you have friends simply helping you with Alexandrite, you earn at least 210 Alexandrite a run, if not you're earning what you currently get before splitting. A win win situation, no?
It still wouldn't remove the fact that the Alexandrite section is ridiculously disproportionate to the rest (150,000 Nyzul tokens needed, 3,000,000 Remnants tokens...), but it's the best I can come up with for the given situation.

So, SE, feel free to lock and ignore this now.

Seconded, Thirded, Fourthed, and Approved jeeze SE you should hire this person not lock their threads. They're giving you cash money ideas for free.

Atomic_Skull

09-17-2011, 05:37 PM

Seconded, Thirded, Fourthed, and Approved jeeze SE you should hire this person not lock their threads. They're giving you cash money dumb ideas for free.

Fixed that for you.

Staren

09-17-2011, 11:51 PM

Fixed that for you.

Either you're someone who paid 30,000 alex and now no one else can get it for less, or you're trolling. I dont see how getting 300 alexandrite a run is a bad thing. Getting a mythic in 100ish days instead of 1 year and 135 days. I really dont see the problem here.

Atomic_Skull

09-18-2011, 10:04 AM

Either you're someone who paid 30,000 alex and now no one else can get it for less, or you're trolling. I dont see how getting 300 alexandrite a run is a bad thing. Getting a mythic in 100ish days instead of 1 year and 135 days. I really dont see the problem here.

The solution for mythics being not worth the effort to upgrade them is to make them better so that they are worth the investment not to dumb them down.

Elexia

09-18-2011, 10:40 AM

The solution for mythics being not worth the effort to upgrade them is to make them better so that they are worth the investment not to dumb them down.

Oh they stick to their original concept and not make them retarded to get? Why buff them so the pointless grind makes it worthwhile? Especially post Empyreans?

The solution:

Drop Alexandrite requirement.
-or-
Lower Alexandrite requirement significantly.
-or-
Sharply increase sources to obtain Alexandrite (You know those AN/CP/ISP/Bastion/Trophies you have pilled up? Yeah.)

Only people who would be against this are those who are on/past the stage and hate seeing people get something easier than them.

I mean, REALLY think about it.

Empyrean:
-Slaughter a barrel full of NMs
-Collect 175 items
-Profit.

Relic:
-Collect useless weapon (argueablly the hardest part)
-Collect currency (just takes a bit if you don't buy.)
-Collect the appropriate items (can be hard if no crafting skill or crafters supplying)
-Profit and get a refund of some kind.

Mythic:
-Progress to Captain Rank
-Collect useless weapon (can be hard given objectives and time restraint on going 12+ floors)
-Do all Assaults with a limitation of 3(4/5) tags that cool down e very real life day
-Collect 150,000 Nyul Tokens (by the way, these take assault tags as well.)
-Collect 100,000 Ampoules (If you have the gear to buy or new to it, you won't have this much stored or acquired in a short period of time.)
-Story Completion
-The Chariot's Defeated
-ToAU kings defeated
-Odin Defeated
-30,000 Alexandrite
-ZNM Trophies...
-Fight Zahak/Bal and if you lose recollect the trophies which means reprogressing ZNM tiers iirc.

I feel like I'm missing something, but look at Mythic's grind.It.Is.Pointless. You can easily drop off:

-Collect useless weapon (can be hard given objectives and time restraint on going 12+ floors)
-Do all Assaults with a limitation of 3(4/5) tags that cool down e very real life day
-Collect 150,000 Nyul Tokens (by the way, these take assault tags as well.)
-Collect 100,000 Ampoules (If you have the gear to buy or new to it, you won't have this much stored or acquired in a short period of time.)
-Story Completion
-The Chariot's Defeated
-ToAU kings defeated
-Odin Defeated
-30,000 Alexandrite
-ZNM Trophies...

And it would be more reasonable. Even if they kept the Alexandrite requirement, it could easily be reduced to something like 5,000, which should be the longest part of it.

No matter how you look at it, it's a pointless grind. It can be the best weapon in the world, the requirements alone are far too much and far too demanding for anything even if this is an MMORPG.

Sotek

09-18-2011, 11:16 AM

Somehow I think SE is more likely to accept a suggestion like "Make the Alexandrite reward from Salvage non-competitive and make Alexandrite reasonable to stack" than they are to accept a suggestion like "Make Mythic weapons over four times as powerful than anything in the game to balance out their completely ridiculous quest requirements". Just saying.

Byrth

09-18-2011, 11:29 AM

Suirieko

09-18-2011, 11:53 AM

As someone with 27500 Alexandrite, I'd be down with a straight Alexandrite cost reduction. They would need to do it this way:
1) Reduce Alexandrite requirement to 10,000
2) Permit people to remove Alexandrite from the NPC (this would help even out the huge demand spike of 1)
3) Add Synergy augments to Salvage gear

I would anticipate these effects:
* After an adjustment period, Alexandrite prices would settle so that the gil/hr of Salvage equals that of Dynamis.
* People would farm Salvage for Alexandrite and upgrades to their gear.
* People would farm Einherjar just for the Ampuoles and missed abjurations of years past.
* The increase in Mythic hunters would reinvigorate all the related events, effectively reviving ToAU endgame.

I'm gonna have to disagree with the bolded part. Dynamis requires approximately 17500 coins, and it is the main part of the task. Mythics have many, many tasks, not just Alexandrites. Therefore, Alexandrites need to be WAY cheaper than Dynamis currencies in value.

As it is, technically, Alexandrites are more valuable than Dynamis currencies. All 30,000 Alexandrites would be enough to pay for at LEAST two relics.

While Ampoules are easy to get. Nyzul require constant grind, and have to be balanced out with REdoing all 50 assaults. (Remember you have to do all 50 assaults TWICE overall. One to get Captain, which is required to even start this quest, and one for the five log books you get.

Gennadi

09-18-2011, 11:53 AM

I think the OP needs a tissue, no a box of tissues

Byrth

09-18-2011, 12:21 PM

I'm gonna have to disagree with the bolded part. Dynamis requires approximately 17500 coins, and it is the main part of the task. Mythics have many, many tasks, not just Alexandrites. Therefore, Alexandrites need to be WAY cheaper than Dynamis currencies in value.

As it is, technically, Alexandrites are more valuable than Dynamis currencies. All 30,000 Alexandrites would be enough to pay for at LEAST two relics.

While Ampoules are easy to get. Nyzul require constant grind, and have to be balanced out with REdoing all 50 assaults. (Remember you have to do all 50 assaults TWICE overall. One to get Captain, which is required to even start this quest, and one for the five log books you get.

If people are logical (actually a huge assumption) and are doing an event primarily for gil, they're going to do whatever gets them the best gil per hour. Because of this, people seeking gil will not do Salvage (and Alexandrite supply will not increase) until the price of Alexandrite rises to match the gil per hour of Dynamis (a similar event). Adding additional incentives (like Synergy augments) would help increase motivation to do Salvage and effectively decrease Alexandrite price, but Salvage is already fighting an uphill battle due to the entrance requirements (3 people, 500 AP) and lower overall yield (~70 average). 140 dynamis currency with 3 people in 2 hours isn't unreasonable, so you could expect Alexandrite price to be approximately double ancient currency. That would make mythics ~40% more expensive than relics, which is a lot better than the ~110% more expensive they are right now.

The reason that prices are currently where they are is due to the extremely low Supply and also the extremely low Demand. There are only a handful of people on each server actively pursuing a Mythic, so they set the price just as much as the sellers. If you cut the requirement by a third and gave people additional reasons to spam Salvage, that number would dramatically increase. That's why I proposed letting people take Alexandrite back out of the NPC, to deal with this initial surge and Alexandrite frenzy. Then demand and supply both spike at about the same time.

It's basically just economics. Regardless how you feel about the other requirements, there are enough people with them (mostly) done that it wouldn't actually be a barrier to completing the quest relative to the actual Alexandrite. In the long term, when everyone with the requirements have been worked through and you're left with people who view Mythics as an unreachable goal instead of as "something that I'd have if it weren't for that blasted Alexandrite!" then you're right, Alexandrite price would decrease and reflect the decreased demand. People would also stop doing the event for gil though, and supply would drop too. Think about how some ancient currencies used to be much more expensive than each other, and now they're all about equal.

Staren

09-18-2011, 01:51 PM

I think the OP needs a tissue, no a box of tissues

Post count +1 for Gennadi (Understood). You have no actual comments to add to this thread other than to troll. Thanks for dropping by! Must feel good being a BST main to have something to give someone else crap for for a change eh?

Atomic_Skull

09-18-2011, 04:45 PM

Oh they stick to their original concept and not make them retarded to get? Why buff them so the pointless grind makes it worthwhile? Especially post Empyreans?

The solution:

Drop Alexandrite requirement.
-or-
Lower Alexandrite requirement significantly.
-or-
Sharply increase sources to obtain Alexandrite (You know those AN/CP/ISP/Bastion/Trophies you have pilled up? Yeah.)

Only people who would be against this are those who are on/past the stage and hate seeing people get something easier than them.

I mean, REALLY think about it.

Empyrean:
-Slaughter a barrel full of NMs
-Collect 175 items
-Profit.

Relic:
-Collect useless weapon (argueablly the hardest part)
-Collect currency (just takes a bit if you don't buy.)
-Collect the appropriate items (can be hard if no crafting skill or crafters supplying)
-Profit and get a refund of some kind.

Mythic:
-Progress to Captain Rank
-Collect useless weapon (can be hard given objectives and time restraint on going 12+ floors)
-Do all Assaults with a limitation of 3(4/5) tags that cool down e very real life day
-Collect 150,000 Nyul Tokens (by the way, these take assault tags as well.)
-Collect 100,000 Ampoules (If you have the gear to buy or new to it, you won't have this much stored or acquired in a short period of time.)
-Story Completion
-The Chariot's Defeated
-ToAU kings defeated
-Odin Defeated
-30,000 Alexandrite
-ZNM Trophies...
-Fight Zahak/Bal and if you lose recollect the trophies which means reprogressing ZNM tiers iirc.

I feel like I'm missing something, but look at Mythic's grind.It.Is.Pointless. You can easily drop off:

-Collect useless weapon (can be hard given objectives and time restraint on going 12+ floors)
-Do all Assaults with a limitation of 3(4/5) tags that cool down e very real life day
-Collect 150,000 Nyul Tokens (by the way, these take assault tags as well.)
-Collect 100,000 Ampoules (If you have the gear to buy or new to it, you won't have this much stored or acquired in a short period of time.)
-Story Completion
-The Chariot's Defeated
-ToAU kings defeated
-Odin Defeated
-30,000 Alexandrite
-ZNM Trophies...

And it would be more reasonable. Even if they kept the Alexandrite requirement, it could easily be reduced to something like 5,000, which should be the longest part of it.

No matter how you look at it, it's a pointless grind. It can be the best weapon in the world, the requirements alone are far too much and far too demanding for anything even if this is an MMORPG.

So you want then to nerf it to where it's "slightly harder than easy".. Got it.

I like the fact that there are items that most people can't get. It gives me something to reach for. They shouldn't change the requirements, just make them better compared to Empyreans.

Atomic_Skull

09-18-2011, 04:53 PM

3) Add Synergy augments to Salvage gear

People don't bother with augmenting abjuration gear because they hate synergy augments. What makes you think they're going to change their minds with salvage?

Vortex

09-18-2011, 05:05 PM

NO NO NO HELL %@#$ING NO!!!!

NO MORE RANDOM STATS AND NO MORE SYNERGY. +1 FIXED STAT UPGRADES OR GTFO.

So what would you prefer, Defeat said salvage boss 50 times to get a +1 or, get a bunch of item that are buyable and some greedy pricks will overcharge you 5-10 mil EACH for because they know it will upgrade, in short i would prefer syngery, it's much easier, less of a headach, and you don't have to pay millions of gill.

I like the fact that there are items that most people can't get. It gives me something to reach for. They shouldn't change the requirements, just make them better compared to Empyreans.

Most of the items people "can't get" are just useless crap, like pretty much most of the mythics and some relics. mythics were made to "ehance" specific abilites or traits for the respective jobs. so i don't know how they can make them better, as it stand he is right that the requirements are Ridicoulous and should be shortend. because as it stands, none of the mythics are WORTH the effort to bother with. with the excepetion of maybe yagrush (this may be debatable of course depending on your favorite job), but even then, it's still questionable of going through that effort.

Example, you're not going to see a ninja going after a Nagi when they can just easily get a kanngi that will destroy it, because they want it for damage, not ehanced 2 hour. and off hand is pretty much set in stone with 2 katanas for inside and outside so even off handed it would be a waste, much like the relic. that's just an example of wasted effort.

Staren

09-18-2011, 10:58 PM

So you want then to nerf it to where it's "slightly harder than easy".. Got it.

I like the fact that there are items that most people can't get. It gives me something to reach for. They shouldn't change the requirements, just make them better compared to Empyreans.

Back in 2005-2006 when I started playing this game, I'd have agreed with you. I love the idea of gear that is hard to get. But here in 2011, when we dont know how long they actually plan on keeping the servers up and where ls's who work together to get people items are rare (and most of the ones you can find right now only do abyssea), any item that takes a group of 3 people a year and one hundred and 35 days to get working together 2 hrs at least a day on it is too much to require. They could make every mythic the absolute best weapon in the game by a factor of ten and it still wouldnt be worth it. Because then the only people doing salvage will still be the people wanting mythics and it wont increase the quantity on the market and it wont lower the price and as such wont make the mythic any easier to get. I can see if you own one already wanting them to make them better so you feel like your 30,000 alex meant something. But as of right now almost everyone working on a mythic knows they're sinking more gil into it than its worth; and we're still working on them. So I personally dont care whether or not they make them better, go right ahead if they want to, but my concern is if i'll actually be able to get the 30,000 alex before the servers shut down without having to buy them all. That's why most of the people working on them want the requirement lowered. I would think the only people against this A) Have a mythic already, B) Are within a couple thousand alex of finishing and have amnesia as to how ridiculous farming alex has been, C) have not tried to farm alex for a mythic on a regular basis and are deluded enough to think without cheating they can farm a mythic lowman in less than a year.

Vortex

09-18-2011, 11:07 PM

I honestly think the alexandite reqirement should just be eliminated comeplety, doing 50 assaults alone is enough of a pain in the arse considering you're only limited to doing at max 3-5 a day and have to wait till they recharge and hope nothing goes wrong with the assualts that you lose a tag, that's not even including the other time consuming events that are restricted by a 3 day period like einherjar and ZNMs are no easy task either considering the time you take just farming zeni. maybe "removing" alexandrite it self may be a bit much to ask but at LEAST bring it down to 1-4k 30k is out right retarded and i honestly feel people who do bother with it, just want a great since of acomplishment, which it is. but as far as useful. is another story.

With that being said yes, even if they were the absolute best weapons imaginable. people still won't bother. i mean look at the BST mythic, why on earth would you even consider working on something like that. for all the crap you have to do.

and ever since abyssea came out TOAU content was just destroyed. meaning you won't find many people shouting for things like assualts or ZNMs because even the rewards they offer are outdated/useless at this point.

Elexia

09-19-2011, 12:47 AM

Alhanelem

09-19-2011, 01:32 AM

Mythics are plain retarded to acquire when they flatout told us they would be even easier than a relic to complete, something for a casual player basically which is why they were made as a "inferior relic" because it was supposed to be easier than it is to get.[Citation Needed]

I don't recall them ever saying that mythics were intended for casual players or that they were specifically made to be inferior to relics or that they were easier. Doesn't mean it never happened, but I'd appreciate it if you sourced it.

Vortex

09-19-2011, 01:39 AM

How in the world did they consider mythics EVER to be "easier" to get. even when they were new the alexandrites needed was 50,000...and then they lowerd it to 30,000 which is still retarded, what made them think that was eaiser? relics just needs lots of gill and a few easy NMs, mythics just need a bunch of.....mess. what the hell was the person who said that smoking,

Staren

09-19-2011, 02:11 AM

[Citation Needed]

I don't recall them ever saying that mythics were intended for casual players or that they were specifically made to be inferior to relics or that they were easier. Doesn't mean it never happened, but I'd appreciate it if you sourced it.

Dont think you'll find citations, these words came from the ToAU/WotG fanfests where they repeatedly said that the ToAU content as a whole was geared toward casual players.

Elexia

09-19-2011, 02:13 AM

Dont think you'll find citations, these words came from the ToAU/WotG fanfests where they repeatedly said that the ToAU content as a whole was geared toward casual players.

Yep, main documentation you'll find are people who went to the Premier Summit that got to play around with some of the weapons.

Alhanelem

09-19-2011, 02:17 AM

Yep, main documentation you'll find are people who went to the Premier Summit that got to play around with some of the weapons.
People have documented things that were said at fanfests. You should be able to find it in an article or interview transcription if they really said it.

Staren

09-19-2011, 02:49 AM

I can vouch for her as I went there and heard it first hand. But if you expect me to waste time looking for documentation 5 years old that SE has prolly tried to cover up since the PW incident in general. I dont have the time I did in college to look for something I heard with my own ears.

Kimble

09-19-2011, 02:50 AM

Ill look for it, but they said they wanted mythics to be more reward based weapon and a weapon that would be a final reward for doing all the ToAU content. Since it was suppose to be that way, they said that they would not be as strong as relics.

Then they added 30k alex >_>

Alhanelem

09-19-2011, 03:07 AM

well when they were new, it was 50k- that's why I find such a statement to be a stretch. No "casual player" was going to get 10,000 alex, much less 50, at the original rate of alexandrite produciton, either. I don't know how they couldn't see this was unfeasable, or rather how their changes didn't make it feasible enough.

Neisan_Quetz

09-19-2011, 03:39 AM

We're talking about the same company that made AV/PW pre nerf though.

Suirieko

09-19-2011, 08:17 AM

Not to mention that they said they 'projected' the weapon to be completed in 6 months, 2 months fastest.

Byrth

09-19-2011, 10:00 AM

7/29/2008 they released "The Myriad Arms of Balrahn" press release and 12/16/08 this happened (http://sapereaude.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=1394&start=0). If they projected 2~6 months, I guess they were about on schedule!

I don't think there's any point in really railing for Mythics to be the "hardcore option." SE has been pretty clear and consistent with their direction with the game in the last few patches, and it's funneling towards casual players. Regardless what you want, they're going to make Mythics dramatically easier to obtain at some point through some mechanism in my opinion. The people whining that it should be "now now now" and the people whining that "Mythics are meant to be hard" both waste their time and effort, because SE doesn't read or care about your opinions on the subject.

10,000 Alexandrite would make it a long-term but reasonable goal for the same kind of player that considers things like a Relic, especially if the final reward (Mythics) were better than their relic counterparts.

Atomic_Skull

09-20-2011, 02:50 AM

So what would you prefer, Defeat said salvage boss 50 times to get a +1 or, get a bunch of item that are buyable and some greedy pricks will overcharge you 5-10 mil EACH for because they know it will upgrade, in short i would prefer syngery, it's much easier, less of a headach, and you don't have to pay millions of gill.

I would prefer the +1 because at least I know what I am working toward. The majority of the players seem to feel this way if the thread on Relic gear upgrades is any indication. SE actually changed their plans for synergy augments and switched to +2 upgrades instead because of the huge negative response to the idea.

I don't think there's any point in really railing for Mythics to be the "hardcore option." SE has been pretty clear and consistent with their direction with the game in the last few patches, and it's funneling towards casual players.

Unless 1500 heavy metal plates are really easy to get "easy mode" for Empyreans has been turned off as of this update.

Shoko

09-20-2011, 03:21 AM

Man, I dunno about all of you dudes, but I've seen my first bazaar with 5 stacks of alexandrite... for 20k. 10k was bad enough, but 20k... for serious?

Staren

09-20-2011, 09:36 PM

Yeah I've seen a few bazaars at 20k now, was 13k last week. The stuff is selling so fast and has such a limited supply, and with SE keeping quiet on this and not helping I dont see it getting any better.

nitsuj

10-01-2011, 08:03 AM

Just tossing my hat in here. Please fix Alexandrite so I can get past the 15k mark I'm stuck at now.

Atomic_Skull

10-02-2011, 10:20 AM

I'm pretty sure SE intends to "fix" this issue by adding higher tier Salvage zones.

Staren

10-03-2011, 10:30 AM

Atomic_Skull

10-03-2011, 03:52 PM

But SE's not planning on "fixing" these issues for over 6 months. Does SE really expect us to spend half a year more on our mythics. We were already planning on finishing with a year, understandably, but by the time they fix it at this point my group will actually be finished with the mythic. The point was not to spend another 6months to a year working on this crap. They've made relics and empys so freaking easy it's a slap in the face to mages to make them way over half a year later than everyone else.

Relics are 170 million gil at 10k per currency. I wouldn't call that "easy".

I also have a feeling that the last relic trial will be something similar to the 1500 plates needed for the current Empyrean trial, especially if SE plans to take another look at the relic stats at 99 like they previously said.

Byrth

10-03-2011, 10:39 PM

Relics are 170 million gil at 10k per currency. I wouldn't call that "easy".

I also have a feeling that the last relic trial will be something similar to the 1500 plates needed for the current Empyrean trial, especially if SE plans to take another look at the relic stats at 99 like they previously said.

Most relics are about 135mil at 9k per currency piece and with the 3k loan. If I was buying at the moment, there's no way I would buy above 9k each. If they don't patch CoP Dynamis, the prices could drop to 7 or 8k each unless inflation counters it (which could happen). Anyway, if you play a lot and know what you're doing, you're looking at under a month of effort for a relic. It is a big change from the multi-year soulcrushing efforts they used to be.

I am also worried that SE is going to adjust the difficulty up in the next trial, rather than adjusting other weapons down.

Staren

10-03-2011, 10:41 PM

Atomic_Skull

10-05-2011, 08:40 AM

You apparently havent done dreamworlds dyna, heck even regular new dyna we were getting 200 ish coins a run consistently. <90 days is still drastically easier than almost a year.

[Update Details]

- The accuracy of area of effect attacks striking the weak point of a monster that is not being targeted has been reduced in the following zones.

Dynamis - Valkurm / Dynamis - Buburimu
Dynamis – Qufim / Dynamis - Tavnazia

I'm sorry what were you saying?

Elexia

10-05-2011, 08:58 AM

I'm sorry what were you saying?

While it was a stupid move it actually does nothing. Yes you prefer Mythics in all their retarded to get glory, however, you can still get a ton of currency a night without AoE spamming.

Keep tryin.

Atomic_Skull

10-05-2011, 09:03 AM

While it was a stupid move it actually does nothing. Yes you prefer Mythics in all their retarded to get glory, however, you can still get a ton of currency a night without AoE spamming

Yes but not at the "omg currencies are falling like the rain in Pashhow Marshlands" level it was before.

You can bet your ass that "reduced" really means "damn close to zero"

COP dynamis was intended to give people a harder path to get more currencies in a given amount of time, not to make it so easy to get currencies that you can duo a relic in a month. This nerf shows that SE has no intention of allowing the latter to happen. They want the difficulty at a certain level and they will keep on nerfing it till it's where they want it. Tanaka is back and easy mode FFXI is over.

Kimble

10-05-2011, 11:26 AM

Tanaka never left so how did he come back?

Atomic_Skull

10-05-2011, 11:40 AM

Tanaka never left so how did he come back?

He switched from FFXI/FFXIV producer to FFXIV producer exclusively just before FFXIV was released.

Kimble

10-05-2011, 11:45 AM

Hasnt that already been proven to be false?

Atomic_Skull

10-05-2011, 11:50 AM

Hasnt that already been proven to be false?

No it hasn't.

Kimble

10-05-2011, 12:11 PM

From everything I've read, he never "left" XI, he was doing both XI and XIV. He then was placed on XIV.

Now maybe one can argue that he is now focusing more on XI and thus this "down fall" players are going on about, but he never was fully removed from XI so saying "hes back" is completely wrong.

Also, he was always just the producer, afaik , the director has more influence on actual game development then a producer does.

Atomic_Skull

10-05-2011, 02:00 PM

From everything I've read, he never "left" XI, he was doing both XI and XIV. He then was placed on XIV.

Bolded part makes no sense.

Kimble

10-05-2011, 02:21 PM

I meant he was was doing both of them, then left/was forced to leave XIV.

Falseliberty

10-05-2011, 02:35 PM

to me everything felt rushed and not ready, the lvl cap increase prob should have not happened till the content was more fleshed out the 4 new big events (VW, WOE COP dyna and some new BCNMs) we got with this update that was suppose to carry us over from abyssea just wasn't enuf.

COP dyna is just a repeat of of the older zones no one goes there to do the new fights, people just farm coins /hint if you want people to do new content u have to add stellar new gear thats rare/ex and mobs with meaty lootpools to drag more than 6-12 people anymore to anything

WoE? lolwoe that crap has been a broken mess from the very start and while i admit this last update has finnaly made it more fun and fair, its still not balanced and you can see it as soon as you enter due to the 30 Garuda's attacking things

and now you have this heavy metal plate nonsense it just feels unimaginative and shoehorned into VW to make people do VW. what if you dont like VW? what if your not in a decent shell that can tackle the new fights( didnt SE realize that abyssea broke up alot of the big shells into smaller groups cuz it was counter productive? World of warcraft I believe had this problem when they went from vanilla to burning crusade raids was 40 man and got scaled back to 18?

I honestly thought the lvl 95 emp trials was gonna be sumthing like get 20 wins in WOE then kill 20 of sum new NM in aby then get 50 moogle rainbows from T3 VW, you know sumthing not so dam mundane as heavy metal plates jesus christ !,why cant a smither just get some ingots and make em.. for christs sake .. plates of metal? its sounds like the devs aint even trying to make sh*t up anymore

Atomic_Skull

10-05-2011, 04:48 PM

( didnt SE realize that abyssea broke up alot of the big shells into smaller groups cuz it was counter productive? )

Abyssea and the increase to lvl 99 was originally concocted when SE was convinced that FFXIV was going to be a huge success that would storm the industry and rival WoW in subscription numbers. It was intended as one last big party where everyone got to play on godmode and all the old gear was replaced with easier to obtain stuff in order to sever people's ties to FFXI so that we'd all feel we had "beaten" it and move over to FFXIV.

Kimble

10-05-2011, 05:50 PM

Now that is just, in theory correct?

Staren

10-06-2011, 12:47 AM

I'm sorry what were you saying?

A) You'll notice I mentioned getting near 200 coins a run regularly in normal zones which you'll also notice wasnt in that fix.

B) They only nerfed AoE farming JA farmers so far are reporting no loss in currency/run. So it is still possible for an adaptive group to report similar if not the same numbers from CoP Zones.

Molech

10-06-2011, 10:44 AM

Excessive grind always has and always will cover up something that is either rushed or just poorly thought out.

This has always been SE's bread and butter.

Put very little effort into the content but make the grind excessive and pray that it gets you to the next patch = SE's thought process.

Atomic_Skull

10-06-2011, 02:37 PM

A) You'll notice I mentioned getting near 200 coins a run regularly in normal zones which you'll also notice wasnt in that fix.

B) They only nerfed AoE farming JA farmers so far are reporting no loss in currency/run. So it is still possible for an adaptive group to report similar if not the same numbers from CoP Zones.

If people are getting the same number of coins from COP zones that they have been getting from old dynamis zones for the past 6 months then the price isn't going to fall now is it?

Staren

10-07-2011, 03:23 AM

If people are getting the same number of coins from COP zones that they have been getting from old dynamis zones for the past 6 months then the price isn't going to fall now is it?

If you do old zones at one run a day you can finish a relic in about 3 months. Cop Zones was making runs worth double to triple that amount. So 400-600 coins a run regularly. It would have made a relic doable in a month to two. Three months is about how long we spent working on our first empyreans before the level cap raises and only for a few hours everyday not a full blown 56 hours a week working on it. To be honest in my opinion Relics are as easy to get as the first tier of Empyreans just doing cities. CoP zones are still giving 300+ coins a run to JA procers which means you can still finish a relic for 2hrs a day in less than three months. Yes Relics are still a joke to get now even with the nerf. Mythics on the other hand are only getting harder and harder to get. Prices in bazaar for alex are regularly 20k now and you still need twice the coins and you're lucky to find 100 alex floating around in bazaars once every couple of days outside the overabundance of coins floating around. Please do the new dyna content before you call a relic hard, I made that mistake and then at someone's request I started trying dyna before bashing how it wasnt better than old dyna. At this point we're looking at pumping out relics shortly after we finish the mythic which is sadly at least 6months from now but we'll be able to get 4-5 relics in the time it took us to make a mythic, and we'll still have time to make empys due to how short dyna is. This only exemplifies the ease of relics/empys to mythics.

Atomic_Skull

10-07-2011, 08:35 AM

If you do old zones at one run a day you can finish a relic in about 3 months.

No normal person is going to to do dynamis 7 days a week for three straight months.

If you do then you are basement dweller and should quit FFXI for your own good.

Neisan_Quetz

10-07-2011, 08:41 AM

Not to say that there isn't drawbacks to playing that often but blanket statements don't help your position. It would take longer if you go at a reasonable pace but Relics are not as hard as they used to be, that is the main point.

I'm sure someone can argue they never really were hard but with the hourglass change + stagger relic is not difficult.

Kimble

10-07-2011, 09:07 AM

No normal person is going to to do dynamis 7 days a week for three straight months.

If you do then you are basement dweller and should quit FFXI for your own good.

Putting aside 2 hours a day to do dynamis is being a basement dweller?

Sotek

10-07-2011, 10:13 AM

No normal person is going to to do dynamis 7 days a week for three straight months.

If you do then you are basement dweller and should quit FFXI for your own good.

You realize that exact argument can be turned right back at Duties, Tasks and Deeds being extremely retarded, right?

Who's going to do 160 minutes of a combination of Nyzul Isle, Assault, Einherjar and Salvage 7 days a week for 10 months? Granted you can drop Nyzul Isle/Assault - and thus 30 minutes - off after about 4 months. Einherjar isn't a daily event (but it probably will be), but Salvage alone is 100 minutes a day - only 20 off Dynamis - and you'd be doing it for well over triple the time you would Dynamis.

Staren

10-07-2011, 11:49 AM

No normal person is going to to do dynamis 7 days a week for three straight months.

If you do then you are basement dweller and should quit FFXI for your own good.

Thanks to Sotek for reiterating the entire point of this thread. Also yeah seriously if you don't already play ffxi for 2hrs a day I dont know what all you're accomplishing. I am in fact not a basement dweller, I work 8-12hrs a day managing a team out of India. I come home, I cook my own food, I play xi to relax once I'm done til I go to bed. Its really not hard to be on for 2hrs a night. Its kinda sad you even consider that a commitment if its only for 2-3 months when you're arguing against reducing the difficulty of mythics, when they require the exact same thing for one year and one hundred thirty five days straight if you farm only through doing salvage.

Staren

10-17-2011, 10:45 PM

Hoping we'll hear something from a rep soon. Seems it been nothing but pup sch bst updates since before the 10/4 update. Maybe we can get an actual useful update from them soon.

Byrth

10-17-2011, 10:55 PM

It took me two months to buy all the Alexandrite for a Mythic. I got lucky with supplies, but it wasn't an unimaginably difficult barrier. Einherjar, in comparison, is taking me much longer.

Make gil and buy Alexandrite. Keep increasing the price of Alexandrite until supply goes up to a level that you like. People farm Dynamis for gil. They'll farm Salvage for gil if you make it worth their while.

Staren

10-17-2011, 11:38 PM

We're at 200 mil in I understand your concept but its not like all of us have 600 mil just laying around to blow. We've been working since september and are about 14,000 in will be done by early december if we do dyna everyday and cleaves on the weekend when we have more time outside of dyna. Still you have to admit its a ridiculous requirement.

Byrth

10-17-2011, 11:57 PM

Well, at 75 it looked like this:
Assaults, starting from nothing - 100 normal assaults, ~75-100 Nyzul Isle runs (200 runs/days, approximately)
Einherjar, starting from 0 amps - ~70 Einherjar runs. 210 days, and more realistically 245 days (twice a week)
Alexandrite, starting from 0 Alex - ??? depends on your gil making ability

So the other parts of the same stage appear to be designed to take about 6 months. You're finishing your Alexandrite in 3~4 months, so I'm not sure they'd really see that as wrong/bad.

Staren

10-18-2011, 12:33 AM

That's only because we found a way to make at minimum 4mil a day. A few months ago that wouldn't have been feasible for us and for most players that's not normal. I'm counting myself as fortunate but also this will be completely based on if we can keep finding alex and buying at a max of 15k an alex.

Byrth

10-18-2011, 12:51 AM

I think you're underestimating the incredible amount of inflation Abyssea introduced to the game. People make 1mil/hr just farming (Dynamis) these days, compared to the 100k/hr farming (anything) they'd have made two years ago. If you had put out the same amount of effort, I'm not sure it would have taken you more or less time in the past to gather the same number of Alexandrite, because their price has scaled up at the same rate as the gil/hr people can make.

Staren

10-18-2011, 01:46 AM

I dont know I think its a deterrent in general. 90 Mil 2-3 years ago I'd have told you was impossible. 450-600 mil 2 months ago I would have told you and I still say is chasing windmills. I think its just getting off your butt and working on it at this point seeing the results we've gotten. If dyna coin prices crash in the next few months or people stop paying for cleave parties I think it'll be out of our reach again.

Byrth

10-18-2011, 02:04 AM

I think its just getting off your butt and working on it at this point seeing the results we've gotten.

Basically this. I thought I'd be working on a mythic and collecting Alexandrite for a year and I finished it in two months.

Shoko

10-18-2011, 10:17 PM

Oh yeah, I'd also like a PM on some gil making tips. Really don't wanna stop at 9k alex remaining after reading this. PM be Sho on BG.

Alhanelem

10-19-2011, 01:35 AM

cidbahamut

10-19-2011, 01:54 AM

Kill things that drop gil.
NPC items you don't need.
Sell things worth money on the AH.

There's your gil making tips. You're acting like there's some kind of magic secret that someone's not going to tell you publicly.

You've clearly never held a market monopoly and had it pulled out from under you before. People don't share gil-making strategies because that generally results in the market flooding and a decrease in profits.

Alhanelem

10-19-2011, 03:27 AM

You've clearly never held a market monopoly and had it pulled out from under you before. People don't share gil-making strategies because that generally results in the market flooding and a decrease in profits.
People don't share gil-making strategies because there are none left that people don't know about, unless you want to get super specific and say "Hey, this one item is hot right now, as of the tiem of this post! Buy em up and resell em for more!"

I know all too well what it's like to be the one selling stuff and then one person comes along, undercuts you and takes over. I have spent time plying a high level craft and also looking for some not-well-known item to sell before people "discover" it. In fact, I found one recently. Not going to get specific of course, but the strategy itself is not exactly a secret.

I'm just saying, outside of talking about some specific item that is curretly exploitable for profits if you're in the know about it, there is no magic rule for making gil.

Byrth

10-19-2011, 03:54 AM

I don't use any kind of market monopoly or anything. When I started the Mythic I had over 1500 Kindred Seals, now I have about 300. I had over 1000 Kindred Crests, now I have about 700. I had over a thousand Beastman Seals, now I ... still have over a thousand Beastman Seals, I've only done two HKCNM 50s, etc.

I did BCNMs and farmed Dynamis. I craft sometimes, but it's generally waste of time crap-profit synths that I do more for the benefit of the server than myself. Stuff like buying a bunch of Elm Logs/Mythril Ingots and doing the 2k profit/synth boring job of turning them in to Mythril Picks with my woodworking and smithing subs. Buying Darksteel Ores and just doing the 8k reward quest with them, etc. It's not good gil/hr, but it's brainless money with no competition and I can do it while I'm doing other things irl. Sometimes I make literally thousands of bullets or massive amounts of fewell so I can sell them slowly off my mule over the course of weeks. Like, basic strategy is: Buy all the Slime Oil on AH. Buy all the stones on the NPC. Spend a few hours crafting. Spend an hour d-boxing. Mule has something to sell for the month.

I also (rarely) still resell things if I see them in bazaars for way below market price. That makes me a decent amount of gil, but nothing regular. Like, I bought a Savory Shank for either 3 or 5 mil (I forget) and resold it in a few hours for 10. Bought a Sweet Tea for 3mil and resold it in a day for 9. Bought Mannequin hands for 80k and resold them in a few days for 500. etc. I generally don't clog my inventory for anything less than extreme profit these days though.

205 Heavy Metal and gil to buy over 100 more at market price. I'm trying to keep a fairly high gil baseline for this quest because it's entirely possible people will quit and suddenly dump 100+ Heavy Metal onto the market for cheap. I need to keep enough gil to buy them when it happens.

Alhanelem

10-19-2011, 05:30 AM

Here's a "secret" for "easy" money: Do Bearclaw Pinnacle ENMs for Raise III scrolls.

Tsukino_Kaji

10-20-2011, 09:30 AM

Shoko

10-20-2011, 10:34 AM

SE already gave a responce. After all of the pissing and moaning from the relic/mything owners over how they feel they're justified to whatever. SE made the new empyrean trial 1500 plates. Which is equivical do to their conciderably lower volume on the market. You simply have to wait until SE changed they way TAU works like they said they would when the augments are implemented. After that, mythics will probably be the new empyreans.

That's not even the problem at hand. The problem lies in the abysmally low drop rate of Alexandrite overall to coincide with the changing of the times. The drop rate was just fine when everyone was doing Salvage.... now that people have moved onto Abyssea & Voidwatch, the drop rate and/or drop options for Alexandrite needs to be increased, similar to relic money.

I mean, in all there's like 3 different ways to obtain [large] relic money as a drop:

1) Dynamis (10 Different Zones, with entrance daily and drops are plenty, both small and large money)
2) KCNM
3) Campaign Union (Multiple Areas)

This not including stealing from mobs and Brigand's Chart quests, which are uncommon but add to overall stock of currency. Then you have your typical people who give up and sell their own horded currency for various reasons.

Alexandrite basically only has 4 sources, all of which are zones, one of which is abysmally low, so that makes only 3 real places to get alex from. And then the max is usually 20~200 per run. 20-50 is more of an absolute average, anything over 50 alex is coming from pure luck. Then you have people selling at extreme prices simply because they can.

So no, SE hasn't given the people interested in Mythic weapons a desired response, concerning alexandrite.

Staren

10-20-2011, 01:06 PM

Alhanelem

10-20-2011, 01:52 PM

Also SE has stated that we wont be getting any ToAU adjustments for at least two more updates. Which means they dont plan on giving ToAU content fixes for at least 5-6 months. Thats a long time to take to respond when relics and empyreans are now so easy to get.
I recall them saying it would "take some time," but where are you pulilng this exact number of updates from? Especially considering that they've modified their update scheme somewhat since the test server debut.

Kimble

10-20-2011, 06:06 PM

oh man, no quote system is funny.

SNK

10-20-2011, 06:11 PM

It's weird but I guess it's something different.

Staren

10-20-2011, 08:35 PM

In regards to Einherjar adjustments, we are planning to add higher tier expansions and also new rewards, but the timing has not yet been decided. (It will be difficult to get it in during the next version update and the one to follow. Apologies!)

We would like to make adjustments not only to Einherjar, but to (as we told you the other day) Nyzul, ZNM, Salvage, and even HNMs as well. Though it may take some time, we hope you are looking forward to these adjustments.

This is the message I was referring to.

Vold

10-20-2011, 08:37 PM

Thats a long time to take to respond when relics and empyreans are now so easy to get.Says you or maybe even me to some extent, but that doesn't mean it's true. Right now I'm looking at 12 others around me in game, not a single one owns a relic or Empyrean except myself. I'm just saying, I'm reminding people yet again that their skewing of the facts ain't going to win them squat anytime soon.

Staren

10-20-2011, 08:41 PM

Also note in their new test server roadmap that is available here:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/16211-FINAL-FANTASY-XI-Roadmap-for-October-2011-%E2%80%93-March-2012?p=214934#post214934

There are no changes to einerjar on the -test server- til march. No mention of salvage fixes even on this up to march. Which means we will not be seeing salvage adjustments until well after march of next year. This is not acceptable.

Staren

10-20-2011, 09:13 PM

Says you or maybe even me to some extent, but that doesn't mean it's true. Right now I'm looking at 12 others around me in game, not a single one owns a relic or Empyrean except myself. I'm just saying, I'm reminding people yet again that their skewing of the facts ain't going to win them squat anytime soon.

I know alot of people who dont have af3+1 too? Does this mean af3+1 is hard to get? Just because some people are too gimp, or too lazy to get off their butts and play the game with the strategies available to them and do the work doesn't make something hard. Just makes them lazy.

Byrth

10-20-2011, 09:44 PM

To be fair, you should really say, "Relics are easy to get." Level 95 Empyreans are considerably more difficult and expensive to make than level 95 relics.

Staren

10-20-2011, 10:14 PM

95 Empyreans so far from what i've heard have little returns for the investment. So you at least can have a working and easy to get endgame item with a broken weaponskill that in most cases outparses its Relic counterpart with minimal effort. The 95 is just a status symbol at this point. Also tell the people who did the relic trials before they adjusted them relics are easy to get to 95 and listen to them explode. I will say they are easier but in terms of getting the weapon with the weaponskill on it and actually being useful above other normal weapons relics and empyrean's are easy to get.

Byrth

10-20-2011, 10:41 PM

The number of level 90 Empyreans that surpass level 95 relics is probably lower than you believe.

Also, regardless of how hard it was to get currency, do the trials, etc. in the past, they're the easiest level 95 "special" weapon to get at the moment.

Staren

10-20-2011, 11:08 PM

I disagree to be honest with the supply and price rate on Leviathan of Heavy Metal Plates the amount of effort it takes to get a base empyrean and then 75-90 probably is equivalent to the effort it takes to get a relic from 75-95 and the amount of gil it takes to get a relic base and an empyrean 90-95 are very similar. Prices hovering around 12k for coins x 17500 average for coins assuming you don't have a loaner for last 30 hundreds since not a lot of low man groups will put you at 210,000,000 gil for a relic. The prices on leviathan at the moment are around 125,000 for 1 heavy metal plate and needing 1500 puts you at 187,500,000 mil gil for a 95 empyrean. So mathematically, no Empyreans are still easier than relics.

17,500 is actually a low end on coin amounts required. I'll also grant I can see prices going up to 150,000 for heavy metal plates which would put the total at 225,000,000 but I'm also giving a very low average on dynamis coins since 12k is below average for coin prices you'll see in bazaars.

Byrth

10-21-2011, 12:12 AM

My server is 9-11k for coins assuming you buy them all at the guild stone, and 150-200k for plates at the guild stone. Based on reports on BG, my server seems more typical than yours. Also, regardless whether or not you get a coin loan you can always sell the extra coins back afterwards. Even on your server, it's cheaper to get a 95 Relic than Empyrean.

Even if it wasn't, taking a relic from 75 to 95 at present is the work of a week, a few hours a night. Spending only a few hours a night, an Empyrean would take at least two weeks to go from 75 to 90.

Relics = Easy
Empyreans = Middle
Mythics = Hardest at the moment

uptempo

10-21-2011, 12:21 AM

Relics = Easy
Empyreans = Middle
Mythics = Hardest at the moment

How you can even say this with a straight face is beyond me, empyreans are beyond a joke to get to 90 and can easy be done in a week, lets not forget once they hit 85 and get the weaponskill and aftermath how powerfull they become.

I agree the 95 stage is stupid at the momemnt but you along with everyone else has no idea what se has in mind for heavy plates for all we know they could end up dropping like water in the next voidwatch chapter.

Staren

10-21-2011, 01:49 AM

At least we know that there will be multiple VWNM adjustments too in the next several months. I guess I measure the difficulty in getting the weapon in the amount of time it actually takes to finish the first weapon to its first state you gain a great benefit on it. Also 1 week? Are you trolling me? At 250 coins a run duo at one run a day you cannot get 17,500 coins in a week.

Byrth

10-21-2011, 03:22 AM

How you can even say this with a straight face is beyond me, empyreans are beyond a joke to get to 90 and can easy be done in a week, lets not forget once they hit 85 and get the weaponskill and aftermath how powerfull they become.

I agree the 95 stage is stupid at the moment but you along with everyone else has no idea what se has in mind for heavy plates for all we know they could end up dropping like water in the next voidwatch chapter.

Maybe because I'm blatantly considering the 95 version as it currently stands. SE could make Linen pouches of Alexandrite drop from Wild Rabbits next patch and reduce the requirements of every Mythic stage by a factor of 10. They're capable of doing anything, so what they "might do" shouldn't really be considered in any comparisons we make now.

Also, I was talking about a week to do the trials to go from 75 to 95 relic (which is what I said), not to get the 75 version. If they cost the same amount (or Empyreans cost substantially more like on my server), then trials are the other thing to compare.

1500 killshots and 15 NMs is doable in about a week of 2~4 hour nights. 175 Ex items, over a dozen lotto NMs, and VNMs would take at least two weeks playing the same 2~4 hour nights, I'd think.