Rebalancing and Redesigning Red mage (Suggestion)

[Brightshadow]

This is my third update to this thread, I decided instead of making a new one, or it being ignored in the RDM forums that I would adjust this one. Let me know what you think.


The Remaking of Red Mage Level 1-99


Overall Adjustments

1.)Raise Red mage Elemental magic to B+ and Healing magic to B-
-The reason why I think that Healing and Elemental magic should be raised is to help Red mages use stronger nukes and cures since they basically won't have access to the endgame nukes nor cures.

2.)Changes to Enspells
-Make Enspell II similar to Enspell I
-Don't allow scholars to Accession it.
-Ok so basically we know that if Red Mage is ever gonna be able to fight in the frontlines they will need to provide some type of support in the frontlines to allow them to stay there, and a Idea that many Red Mages have is to basically make it similar to Sambas in the context of it being a buff on Red mages that puts a debuff on the monster that allows party members to inflict the enspell damage on the enemy. I think this would be a great boost to Red mages in the frontlines, but in order for this to work the debuff or how I call it "Enchanted" debuff needs to wear off quickly if the Red mage stops attacking. (Players will need to pick between this or Dancer Samba.)

3.)Red mages should gain access to the following Weaponskills Natively
-Red Lotus Blade (Swords)
-Vorpal Blade (Swords)

Traits
I feel that currently the Trait list that Red mage has is unbalanced; they have a bunch of mage traits yet no melee traits so I decided to redesign there whole trait list. Also some of you might think some traits are useless but remember Red mage is a mixture of Warrior, White mage, and Black mage and while they share traits with the mages they share nothing with Warrior so the idea is to balance out there trait list with Physical and Magical traits. (Some will be gone)

-Level10-Fast Cast
-Level15-Magic Attack Bonus
-Level20-Magic Defense Bonus
-Level25-Clear Mind
-Level30-Fast Cast II
-Level35-Attack Bonus
-Level40-Magic Attack Bonus II
-Level45-Magic Defense Bonus II
-Level50-Fast Cast III
-Level53-Clear Mind II
-Level55-Magic Fencer (NEW)-Increases the Red mage ACC/ATK by 20% when under the effect of a enspell.
-Level60-Fencer
-Level70-Clear Mind III
-Level75-Fast Cast IV
-Level80-Magic Attack Bonus III
-Level85-Magic Defense Bonus III
-Level88-Fast Cast V
-Level90-Fencer II
-Level95-Critical Attack Bonus
-Level99-Doublecast (NEW)-You have a 10% chance of the next cure or nuke you cast to be casted again. (Only takes MP for the first time that the spell is cast, the doublecast spell is free.) (Doesn't work on buffs or debuffs only cures and nukes.)


Job Abilities

-Level40-Convert
-Level50-Composure-Remove ACC bonus for balance purposes. (Magic Fencer-solves ACC problem)
-Level80-Saboteur
-Level95-Spontaneity


New Spell List
Some spells were removed especially the AOE spells because In older FFs the Specialist were the ones that had AOE magic RDM never had them.

Level1-Dia
Level3-Cure
Level4-Stone
Level5-Barstone
Level5-Poison
Level6-Paralyze
Level7-Barsleep
Level7-Protect
Level8-Blind
Level9-Barwater
Level9-Water
Level10-Barpoison
Level10-Enthuder
Level11-Bio
Level12-Aquaveil
Level12-Barparalyze
Level12-Enstone
Level13-Baraero
Level13-Slow
Level14-Aero
Level14-Cure II
Level14-Enaero
Level15-Deodorize
Level16-Enblizzard
Level17-Barfire
Level17-Shell
Level18-Barblind
Level18-Silence
Level18-Enfire
Level19-Fire
Level20-Enwater
Level20-Blaze Spikes
Level20-Sneak
Level21-Barblizzard
Level21-Gravity
Level22-Enlight
Level23-Barsilence
Level23-Blink
Level24-Endark
Level24-Blizzard
Level25-Barthunder
Level25-Invisible
Level25-Sleep
Level26-Cure III
Level29-Thunder
Level31-Dia II
Level32-Dispel
Level33-Phalanx
Level34-Stoneskin
Level35-Stone II
Level36-Bio II
Level37-Shell II
Level38-Raise
Level39-Barvirus
Level40-Ice Spikes
Level40-Water II
Level40-Enthunder II
Level41-Refresh
Level42-Enstone II
Level43-Barpetrify
Level44-Enaero II
Level45-Aero II
Level46-Poison II
Level46-Enblizzard II
Level46-Sleep II
Level47-Protect III
Level48-Cure IV
Level48-Enfire II
Level48-Haste
Level50-Fire II
Level50-Enwater II
Level52-Enlight II
Level53-Bind II (Stronger than Bind + Doesn't wear when attacked)
Level54-Endark II
Level55-Blizzard II
Level57-Shell III
Level58-Plague (Lowers MP and TP overtime)
Level60-Shock Spikes
Level60-Thunder II
Level63-Protect IV
Level65-Stone III
Level67-Water III
Level68-Shell IV
Level69-Aero III
Level71-Fire III
Level73-Blizzard III
Level75-Thunder III
Level75-Bio III (Merit)
Level75-Blind II (Merit)
Level75-Dia III (Merit)
Level75-Paralyze II (Merit)
Level75-Phalanx II (Merit)
Level75-Slow II (Merit)
Level77-Stone IV
Level77-Protect V
Level78-Baramnesia
Level79-Amnesia:Target Cannot use Abilities nor TP skills.
Level80-Water IV
Level80-Enthunder III (Addition effect:Lightning DOT)
Level81-Gain-VIT
Level82-Refresh II
Level82-Enstone III (Addition effect:Earth DOT)
Level83-Addle
Level84-Enaero III (Addition effect:Wind DOT)
Level84-Gain-MND
Level86-Fire IV
Level86-Enblizzard III (Addition effect: Ice DOT)
Level87-Gain-CHR
Level87-Shell V
Level87-Break
Level88-Enfire III (Addition effect: Fire DOT)
Level89-Blizzard IV
Level90-Gain AGI
Level90-Enwater III (Addition effect: Water DOT)
Level92-Enlight III (Addition effect: Light DOT)
Level93-Gain STR
Level94-Endark III (Addition effect: Dark DOT)
Level96-Gain DEX
Level99-Gain INT
Level99-Debilitation (Ultimate spell) (Severe hampering of attributes)

[Zatias]

I didn't read through everything but most of what was said here is making stuff more unbalanced.

Also Composure is triple the duration, not double.

Might comment more when my brain decides to work.

[SpankWustler]

That was an awful lot of text to just say "Make Composure better (but actually worse, since it can not be maintained full-time), make Saboteur a stance, add more tiers of stuff, and give Red Mage four tiers of a useless trait."

[Bubeeky]

I generally like what you have, but I think the issue is that at 75, you had a few rdms (from what I understand as I wasn't a rdm then or now lol) that made rdms seem god-like, because they could solo just about anything in game. I'm sure that the problem is that SE is scared of having that again, with one job being the king of content without needing any other job's support. What sucks about that for RDMs is that there really isn't a solution or answer if that is the case :(

Having said that, I would love to see RDM get its own niche, or make enfeebles far more powerful if that is what their niche is supposed to be.

[Zatias]

One of the biggest issues that contribute to Red mage falling back on there magic rather than also meleeing is that SE basically stopped allowing Red mages to equip good melee gear while they could still equip great mage gear. In my opinion this should be resolved as soon as possible.
W.Turban, Goliard Body, Dusk Gloves+1, Calma Trousers, Dusk Feet +1. That's plenty of decent melee gear that RDM can equip.

It can also equip Atheling Mantle and the basic melee Peacock Charm, Brutal Earring, Accuracy Rings. The gear isn't the problem, it's RDM's weak melee and limited weaponskill access.

RDM has always done better in the back lines within groups. Solo stuff, you're also using your mage abilities.

I like the OPTION to melee as RDM however, no matter how gimp it may be. I just wont come as melee RDM when my party wants me as a DD.

[cidbahamut]

Don't we have a subforum for this sort of thing to get buried in?

[Gokku]

the amount of traits alone is an insta never going to happen.
rdms current trait list. Am mount of Traits 20
your list has 27

now breaking down your list VS all other jobs with same traits.

You've given it the same level Fencer as a War * never going to happen its the king of all things offensive.* and done so at an earlier level then war.

you added pld's Defense bonus *why i have no idea def means nothing*

Reduced 5-10 levels off MDB and MAB * puts blm spells in the same level range as rdms*

the attack boost traiti is meh they might give you guys it anyways by 99

"magic" traits fencer/ warlock would be abused by your infinite loop JA swap.

either way you missed the big glaring hole in melee red while trying to mooch fencer.

Combat Skill Ratings
Skill Skill Ranking
Dagger B
Sword B

you'll need at least the A- other jobs have in that category or an obscene amount of ACC in gear to make up for the once 25 levels A tank skills got to the now 35 each A rank gets each 5 levels. let alone the attack lost.

not gonna point out any more glaring holes in your logic , but you should have posted this in the rdm section.

[Brightshadow]

I didn't read through everything but most of what was said here is making stuff more unbalanced.

Also Composure is triple the duration, not double.

Might comment more when my brain decides to work.

I don't believe it might be unbalance but everyone has there opinion, what my goal is to take Red Mage back to its root, and make it more useful at what its already useful at.


That was an awful lot of text to just say "Make Composure better (but actually worse, since it can not be maintained full-time), make Saboteur a stance, add more tiers of stuff, and give Red Mage four tiers of a useless trait."

I know that in a way I did make Composure worst, but I balanced it out by making it useful in other areas as well. In addition Saboteur as a stance would be much better than the way it is now plus with the Magic Warlock trait it would be great. As for the spells well my goal is to take Red mage back to its roots, as well as give them that unique feature that makes them different from others mages especially the Scholars.

Anyways I have to go for now but ill answer other posts later.

[cidbahamut]

I think I want you to stay far, far away from my favorite job.

[Greatguardian]

I think I want you to stay far, far away from my favorite job.

I think I readily concur.

[Tamoa]

Don't we have a subforum for this sort of thing to get buried in?

That's what I was thinking aswell.

[SpankWustler]

I think I want you to stay far, far away from my favorite job.

Brightshadow is in your Mog House right now, sniffing your Estoqueur's Fuseau +2 and fantasizing about Fencer IV.

[cidbahamut]

I knew I couldn't trust my moogle. That's it, I'm hiring some gobbie bouncers for the place.

[Malamasala]

I think the main issue is simply that gear are not average, they are situational.

A good piece of "enhances debuffs", +accuracy, +MND, +STR, +haste, +MP or something would probably be a good start. Armors that collect all vital stats for a hybrid job, instead of forcing people to swap around hundreds of armors just because no armor works for two things.

I'm pretty sure a RDM, with enspells (1 or 2, I have no clue) and haste and accuracy would deal moderate damage. I recall my M.kris COR upping the "per hit" damage by 300% with enspell from RDM sub. Like it went from 8 to 8 + 16. (Numbers randomly picked, no facts). People just are too obsessed with "But the WAR hits for 400 a hit!" to think anything less than 300 per sword swing sucks. And we all know RDM will never do 300 per swing.

[Seriha]

Shaking the peculiar coincidence of this thread emerging as a first-post topic after recent events in the RDM board (even more curious now that the OP's jumped from Valefor to Shiva), I'll focus more on Mellowy's reply...

I've long been in favor of more hybrid friendly gear. Part of RDM's difficulty was always having enough room for things. More Gobbiebag quests helped over time, sure, but that didn't really include RDMs suddenly carrying melee gear instead of idle sets, further boosting stoneskin, more fast cast, and so on. I'm of the mind that one ideal set should focus on Haste, ACC, MND, and MACC while the other would emphasize ATK, STR, MATK, and INT. This would roughly combine the TP set with your MND enfeebling, and WS set with nuking. Just gaining 10 slots from visible gear would be huge, as just my mage-y side can take over 70 depending on what kind of situational stuff I can omit (Dark Magic on a non-SCH or BLM sub, Convert/HMP in Abyssea, etc.).

Of course, gear isn't RDM's only issue when it comes to being an acceptable hybrid, but it's definitely one of the more easily fixed angles. Update's looking to add a few new Haste pieces, but until we know how hard they are to get, it's a bit presumptuous to call them good additions for a job some are content on holding back and belittling for even trying. But even with capped Haste, a lot of other jobs start flaunting things like higher ACC, DA, STP, boosted crits, and then some. Spells can technically emulate this, much like Temper will with DA, but they need to exist and be worth casting.

And I'll leave things at that before things get ugly.

[SpankWustler]

Shaking the peculiar coincidence of this thread emerging as a first-post topic after recent events in the RDM board, I'll focus more on Mellowy's reply...

I've long been in favor of more hybrid friendly gear. Part of RDM's difficulty was always having enough room for things. More Gobbiebag quests helped over time, sure, but that didn't really include RDMs suddenly carrying melee gear instead of idle sets, further boosting stoneskin, more fast cast, and so on. I'm of the mind that one ideal set should focus on Haste, ACC, MND, and MACC while the other would emphasize ATK, STR, MATK, and INT. This would roughly combine the TP set with your MND enfeebling, and WS set with nuking. Just gaining 10 slots from visible gear would be huge, as just my mage-y side can take over 70 depending on what kind of situational stuff I can omit (Dark Magic on a non-SCH or BLM sub, Convert/HMP in Abyssea, etc.).

Of course, gear isn't RDM's only issue when it comes to being an acceptable hybrid, but it's definitely one of the more easily fixed angles. Update's looking to add a few new Haste pieces, but until we know how hard they are to get, it's a bit presumptuous to call them good additions for a job some are content on holding back and belittling for even trying. But even with capped Haste, a lot of other jobs start flaunting things like higher ACC, DA, STP, boosted crits, and then some. Spells can technically emulate this, much like Temper will with DA, but they need to exist and be worth casting.

And I'll leave things at that before things get ugly.

A set or two of odd-ball Red Mage/Blue Mage JSE would make me pretty happy. Well, if the set(s) didn't provide bonuses worse than those attained by wearing a deceased grandparent's undergarments.

Some Red Mages get to make more inventory space, and some Blue Mages get more stuff to macro in for one and a half spells and reduce their inventory space further. Everybody's happy!

[Shiyo]

I think I found the job you're trying to create, and the cool part is it's already in the game! ^_^
Here you go, have a blast! http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Blue_Mage

[Neisan_Quetz]

OP: Stay away from Rdm forever please, that is all.

[InfiniteKarma]

You guys are terrible all he said is he wants RDM to stay a Hybrid while maintaining its unique aspect. i do agree we should have more enspells to our weapon. I mean why not? its our spells it would double our damage while i constantly read through the post majority of ideas are shot down by just the players themselves usually the same people too.

We can sit here and say no to everything or we can take a different approach and suggest other things its bad enough people log in on the forums to throw a negative comment or two. while i like some of his ideas i do not like all of them i am all ears for suggestions.

Certainly no one wants to see RDM get neglected in abyssia and not all of us want to solo the sh*t out of everything. we need to offer more things to parties and it does not need to be just a DD or healer. we just need 1 UNIQUE spell to counter the other party members to where we can get invites over the other jobs. what used to be refresh and dispel and bar spells in pts sounds tiresome it was one of the things that helped us in lower level PTs.

IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM IS THIS GOING TO FIX THE CLASS (i understand it needs more fixing then just enspells and 1 unique spell)

[Tagrineth]

Did anyone else read the thread topic and INSTANTLY think "ITT: Make RDM Melee better"?

There's tons of other jobs that are better on the melee end, and blue mage does basically exactly what you're trying to do with RDM.

Any buffs to RDM's melee abilities would have a price, a loss of some kind of magic prowess to maintain job balance. Considering Swords aren't exactly the greatest DD weapons even in the relatively ideal case, you're trying to make the job good at something you totally don't need, which would come at the expense of your ability to be a great mage job.

In other words, your suggestions wouldn't make RDM better, they'd make RDM worse (but you'd get to use your lolSword all of NEVER because nobody'd want you around anyway).

[Neisan_Quetz]

It isn't even make Rdm melee better, I'm seeing retarded crap like diaga 2/3, I mean, seriously? No one who isn't trolling or in pvp uses diaga 1, why the fuck would I want diaga 3?

Silencega - pointless
Dispelga - pointless
Doom - oh that went over well when it came to Mortal Ray didn't it, it will be useless just as its been in almost every FF before XI, and probably even more so in XI.
Terror: pretty sure SE said not gonna happen to this and why even the Nightfall has a low activation rate.

His changes to composure and saboteur ... I can't even call it a buff, it's just stupid. Pretty clear OP has no clue wtf they're doing.

Also obligatory lolFencer.

[Winrie]

My god.. and i thought all the RDM melee posts were insane and full of the worst ideas but this takes the cake.. once again SE said RDM is an enfeebling expert, not a frontline DD, thats all that needs to be said. I like my RDM the way it is now... screw all these DD crap ideas that even if implemented would never work or be used by anyone with a decent level of intelligence.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

You want to make Composure a better melee ability, while making it worse... Why?!

Terror is more a DRK spell, and Doom is rubbish. Otherwise I don't think the spell list is too bad.

[Zatias]

Silencega - pointless
Dispelga - pointless

Not pointless, just very limited use. Can be used to wipe shadows and silence/dispel in one go. (WHM mobs are annoying with their Blink! Wipe it and silence them at the same time!) Doesn't stick a DoT on it like RDM's natural Diaga.

The rest of the post, I agree on.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Swore I edited my post to say mostly pointless, I must have been falling asleep writing.

[InfiniteKarma]

[Tagrineth][/n other words, your suggestions wouldn't make RDM better, they'd make RDM worse (but you'd get to use your lolSword all of NEVER because nobody'd want you around anyway). ]

Unnecessary comment. You did not need to post something that will get others riled up.

RDM isn't just about magic every FINAL FANTASY game they have made with red mage has always been a hybrid class it will not automatically fill in the rolls as a full time mage it is meant to fill the spots it needs to help the party. in this sense if we drop our sword damage for more mage department powers we might as well pick up a staff and stay in the back.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Pick up a staff and stay in the back if the situation requires it then, and melee when no one cares wth you're doing (assuming everything else is covered).

[Lastranger]

Wow that was a lot of nay saying, so much negative comments.

I think people forget that rdm melee dmg if boosted would not compare too blu or other melee since it in essence would be magical boost of enspell not a physical dmg, there are loads of ways this could be done.
To avoid the haste abuse one could make and ability similar to drk that instead of hp eats mp for each swing in return for hits in the hundreds of the magic kind.

However id say to the op i dont want composure ruined, if anything id like it strenghtened.
one thing i keep doing a lot when melee rdm ( doing trials etc ) is a lot of recasting even with composure slowing amount of swings for evry recast, mostly cycling refresh/ Phalanx/ stoneskin/ Boost spell/ bar spell (when needed )/ prot/shell / spikes / enspell / haste / regen2/ aqaveil ( sometimes even blink) + debuffs dia or bio 2/ para 2/slow2 / addle /blind / and silence if fighting magic mobs.
Granted in party mode i would most likely not use all the buff/deff's listed if magic melee was an option but still a lot of recast.

If anything i think rdm could do with a auto-recast spell that reaplied spells that wears, that would last 10min and did it in instant cast mode( like chainspell withouth the reset of timer recast time) for balance it might drawn more mp for recast and not work on anything but regulare magic ( no nin / blu / brd etc spells ), the list of spells u cast is increasing with the new boost spells and the new double attack spell.

As for gear availible, ive seen a few new items with DA haste and other melee traits on em past 75 that rdm can wear although they r rare and far between they do exist, however for magic melle i think we should get a pure rdm stats gear like purposed by some here, like something that boost effect of spike/enspell haste DA haste etc with str and othe mod for melee use.

On the other side i also think the magic side of RDM need's a rethink and remake, addle was nice but we should have more enfeebs that r usefull, why not some that do 2 debuffs in one shot.

Example :
Bog = hits mob with a heavy gravity and a acc down effect.
Acidic venom = stronger poisen ( taking 30-40 dmg a tic ) and lowers resistance to crit attacks
Fog = Strong blind and lowers resistance to Lightnig & ice spell
Plasma surge = random Stun over time ( may proc 0 times to 6 ) with added effect of magic attack down ( enfeb skill increase chance of proc vs level of mob/ + stats )

Buff's could get a boost too.

Example :
Life surge = cures for around 300 hp and grants a increase to all healing done to target ( extra effect : If target is at max hp the excess heal will spill over to HP boost similare to drain 2 effect) ( no more need for cure 5 lets get our own stuff instead)
Trigger happy = Grants a % snapshot/ Rapid shot to target + r attack/ R acc special buff for Ranger and Cor ( like haste for ranged attack )
Haste 2 = the % haste dont increase a lot more then 1 but lenght of spell is double of 1
Bar Darkness = Increase resistance to Darkness/earth/ice/water spells , effect is superior to that of regulare Bar spells
Bar light = Increase resistance to Light/fire/thunder/wind spells , effect is superior to that of regulare bar spell
Enspell 3 = superior version of enspell drains mp on hit under sublimation effect in return for great magic dmg on hit 100-200s, Unlike 2 series weaknes given on strike is same elementh as u use

Frozen soul = Grants a stoneskin like effect to mp allowing u to cast free for a period , Overwrites stoneskin and is overwriten when stoneskin is cast.
Burning soul = Grants a counter like form of revenge when u are hit or parry or evade attack, overwrites Aqaveil when cast and is overwriten by aqaveil.
Shocking soul = Grants a Crit boost to physical and magic attack overwrites blink and is overwriten by blink cast.

And finaly a a few examples of Rdm and sch nukes with debuff that could exist.

Example :

Quaking Tremor = Single target earth dmg around tier 4 strenght but adds weaknes to earth magic to target
Gale storm = Single target Wind Dmg tier 4 strenght and adds weaknes to wind magic to target
Flood wave = Single target water dmg tier 4 strenght and adds weaknes to water magic to target
Flash fire= Single target fire dmg tier 4 strenght and adds weaknes to fire magic to target
Frozen thundra= Single target dmg tier 4 strenght and adds weaknes to ice magic to target
Plasma sphere = Single target dmg tier 4 strength and adds weaknes to thunder magic to target

Anyways thats my view of how things could be improved fior rdm, i agrea that holding rdm up to the light of a few demigod individuals that DOT'ed to death NM's that usally needed alliance to kill does not hold water in the dabate of the road ahead for rdm, most people dont wanna spend hours on hours DOT'ing a mob to death they want rdm to be usefull in a party or alliance or even lowman situation withouth the nerf from fear of a few individals that have way to much time on their hands, besides isnt that why u added rage to stuff to keep people away from DOT of death.

I dont think rdm ever should outshine any job as jack of all trades except for enfeebs witch is kinda out thing but having options to be more then we are would be nice, even though i know there are a lot of naysayers simply saying no cause they think RDM getting worked on might dmg their own job's chance to be fixed.

If u enjoy rdm as healer fine u should be able to do that although not be as good as whm, if u enjoy nuking u should be able to do that on rdm but not as well as Blm, if u enjoy Melee u should be able to do magic melee on rdm with decent dmg but not as much as the regulare DD out there ( although in magic sense with a MP for dmg ratio on enspell we should be allowed to do dmg fast in haste scenario until mp runs out), And last but not least if u enjoy the suport role of rdm u should be allowed to do that.

Anyways sry if my wall of text ruined ur sight for the day just my 2 cents on the discusion ^^

[Harukusan]

This thread hurts my head and gives me homicidal thoughts. It must be destroyed. The amount of derp has reached its legal limit.

[cidbahamut]

This thread hurts my head and gives me homicidal thoughts. It must be destroyed. The amount of derp has reached its legal limit.

This is why we usually try to keep this sort of nonsense in-house. It's hazardous to the general public.

[Lastranger]

This thread hurts my head and gives me homicidal thoughts. It must be destroyed. The amount of derp has reached its legal limit.

New rdm spell sugestion :

Derp = Buff that when hit Poor taru will have chance of Suicide/headache/naucia
^^

[Greatguardian]

This thread hurts my head and gives me homicidal thoughts. It must be destroyed. The amount of derp has reached its legal limit.

Any way to get Rosina posting in this thread?

I hear she doesn't gear swap on Red Mage.

[SpankWustler]

Any way to get Rosina posting in this thread?

Maybe something similar to the the search tags on an adult website would work to make her "time to post here and make some folks sad" senses tingle?

ABYSSEA LEVEL CAP LEECH GEAR SWAP CHILDISH DANCER ROGPAND MACRO EXPERIENCE CLICK'N'BUY TEAMWORK ELITIST

[Tagrineth]

In other words, your suggestions wouldn't make RDM better, they'd make RDM worse (but you'd get to use your lolSword all of NEVER because nobody'd want you around anyway).

Unnecessary comment. You did not need to post something that will get others riled up.

RDM isn't just about magic every FINAL FANTASY game they have made with red mage has always been a hybrid class it will not automatically fill in the rolls as a full time mage it is meant to fill the spots it needs to help the party. in this sense if we drop our sword damage for more mage department powers we might as well pick up a staff and stay in the back.

Except that even in FF1, the Red Mage's melee damage was paltry in comparison to the Black Belt and Fighter once you're about halfway through the game.

[Juri_Licious]

I think I found the job you're trying to create, and the cool part is it's already in the game! ^_^
Here you go, have a blast! http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Blue_Mage

What are you talking about? Red Mage through out all the Final Fantasy games has been the jack of all trades.

RDM in FFXI isn't. It's good in some aspects and crap in most other aspects. They should be good at everything but they aren't.

Hell even SE's description for FFXI RDM's is that they're the jack of all trades.
I admit I didn't read the OP but still, RDM isn't what it's suppose to be.

[Greatguardian]

What are you talking about? Red Mage through out all the Final Fantasy games has been the jack of all trades.

RDM in FFXI isn't. It's good in some aspects and crap in most other aspects. They should be good at everything but they aren't.

Hell even SE's description for FFXI RDM's is that they're the jack of all trades.
I admit I didn't read the OP but still, RDM isn't what it's suppose to be.

Rdm Melee in FFXI is a lot better than Rdm Melee in FF1. Red Mage is exactly what it's supposed to be. A Mage job with B-tier melee abilities. Know what though? FFXI is a multiplayer game, and Magic is almost always more useful than Melee.

[Brightshadow]

Im sorry I haven't been able to respond to any of the posts, or any of the criticism. Anyways I do agree with many of you that some of the ideas are kinda of extreme so I remade the Original Post. I think now its a lot better, and while it might not guarantee that Red mage will ever be able to melee I still think that this is a pretty good way to go about it.

[Gokku]

quick glance that new JA you putin does it stack with fast cast if so broken if not useless for damn near anything but hate but since rdms cant really tank anything hard hitting why do they need or even want hate?

dont focus on 1 aspect of red look at it as a whole what traits it has spells gear everything other wise every idea you add will get shot down.

[Brightshadow]

No it doesn't stack, and its just to open more options incase the party needs the Red mage to tank.

-I am looking at all aspects of RDM the buffs to Melee is only one part, theres also the new debuffs, the new Quickcast ability that can be used to get duties done with fast. etc everything with Red mage should be balanced and that why I suggested to raise healing and elemental magic to B- as well as sword skill to A-.

[Juri_Licious]

Does RDM have anything over BLU or is BLU just better in every way?


Rdm Melee in FFXI is a lot better than Rdm Melee in FF1. Red Mage is exactly what it's supposed to be. A Mage job with B-tier melee abilities. Know what though? FFXI is a multiplayer game, and Magic is almost always more useful than Melee.

When I played FF1 RDM's Melee felt a lot better than in FFXI.

[Brightshadow]

BLU just had more time to be designed better lol.

[Greatguardian]

When I played FF1 RDM's Melee felt a lot better than in FFXI.

Probably because you weren't seriously comparing the difference between Black Belt/Warrior's Melee and Red Mage's Melee. Relatively, FFXI Red Mage is way better off. It's just that no one wants to invite a mage so that they can melee. If they want someone to melee and deal damage, they can invite a Damage Dealer. If they invite a mage, they expect spells.

Never going to change.

[InfiniteKarma]

Except that even in FF1, the Red Mage's melee damage was paltry in comparison to the Black Belt and Fighter once you're about halfway through the game.

But even if you had got the mix of both of them in the party Red mage was still valueable. Actually i would reference FF5 more because it seems more FFXI. FF5 actually had something along the lines of subjobs.

[Greatguardian]

But even if you had got the mix of both of them in the party Red mage was still valueable. Actually i would reference FF5 more because it seems more FFXI. FF5 actually had something along the lines of subjobs.

Yes. As a Mage. Could it melee in FF1? Sure. If FFXI was turn-based and single-player, Red Mage might melee here too. Unfortunately, it's not. The opportunity cost to melee on anything difficult in a real-time game is far too great.

Also, if Red Mage had Staves or Wands that enhanced its abilities as well as a gear-swap system in FF1 it may not have melee'd at all.

[InfiniteKarma]

But even if you had got the mix of both of them in the party Red mage was still valueable. Actually i would reference FF5 more because it seems more FFXI. FF5 actually had something along the lines of subjobs.

By this i mean you could stack damage with other jobs you werent subject to staying 1 catagory all the time and thats what FFXI is trying to do.

(FFI) However in the case that FF1 RDM still proved better in different cases when i played i would keep RDM and WHM on the field because if the WHM was taged out the RDM assumes the roles and would raise the healer if it came down to it.

(FFXI) In the past RDM and WHM was a GREAT combo in parties rdm was a side spot support while healer would focus on heals im not saying that i should stand in the back but you should understand that in between that time RDM could do as he pleased while in the front line view untill the WHM was taged out it kind of was like the bard of the group but not really a buff and enhancer to make something FULL speciality out of a hybrid class seems stupid RDM should show how to offer its support from both the front and back of the group its suppose to alternate.

I see that it can be a hard concept to understand. to everyone who wants to have that job thats suppose to do their job right. parties look for speciality jobs like BLM and WHM who do what they are intended to do. RDMs catagory of expertise is enfeeble and while everything in abyssea is immune it makes us look like a joke thats not fair at all a normal rotation of fighting for RDM should be: frontline, enfeeble, enhance, Assume healer role (bad case scenario) if healer dies in combat FFXI image of RDM is not at all what a RDM should be pared up to i feel it might as well just be a solo class if parties images of RDM dont change. You cannot changes someones perspective of RDM this late into the game now unless SE tweaks it back to normal and people learn to replay it.

[InfiniteKarma]

Yes. As a Mage. Could it melee in FF1? Sure. If FFXI was turn-based and single-player, Red Mage might melee here too. Unfortunately, it's not. The opportunity cost to melee on anything difficult in a real-time game is far too great.

Also, if Red Mage had Staves or Wands that enhanced its abilities as well as a gear-swap system in FF1 it may not have melee'd at all.

RDM doesnt excel in anything and i cannot say that having a staff is a bad thing however i think gearswaping is a great thing proposed that earlier i said that if a WHM dies RDM assumes the role of healer correct? Gearswap for the stats and convert the MP loss of your previous position as a melee/blackmagic/enfeeble now you just switched to Main healer RDMs dont need the Skill for staffs they need the stats. they should always be 1 under the main Pros of DD, healer,Nuke,and buff enfeebles however should land on everything for a RDM thats what irriates me though.

[InfiniteKarma]

In my Opinion people have Hybrid the Hybrid class they focus to much on speciality of it(get it?) it was never intended to FOCUS on 1 aspect of the party full time everytime. The job should alternate during dire times thats what I THINK RDM CLASS SHOULD BE. and it makes sense thats why its setup the way it is. i dont think our melee should jolt up i think we need a nother set of tier enspells to increase it slightly and as i saw earlier status effects seems like a F***king awesome idea with the loss of low damage i think we can substite that.

We also need better cures we cannot keep on par with the healer so theres no use in ANY of what i just said if we cannot jump to the back if healer dies. I am not saying we should be better healers i am saying we should be there if the problem arises (remember 1 below PRO) makes no sense if we try to help healer when the mob is out damaging your heals and everyone dies anyway.

[Reaux]

you forgot to have them raise RDM shield skill and give more enhancing spells as it has the highest enhancing skill

[Tagrineth]

But even if you had got the mix of both of them in the party Red mage was still valueable. Actually i would reference FF5 more because it seems more FFXI. FF5 actually had something along the lines of subjobs.

And even in FF5, Red Mages' melee damage pales in comparison to like the dozen other Job options that are more melee-focused.

Also: If RDM ever got even billing to where they could heal on par with WHM, melee on par with (I dunno, not the best example but...) PLD, and nuke on par with BLM...

Why would you invite those other jobs for anything, ever?

A job like RDM by its very design HAS to be worse at everything than a more dedicated job. :\

[Neisan_Quetz]

Procs (for at least 2 events). And it doesn't have to be worse at everything, it was and still is the best enfeebler next to Brd (who can only keep 2 debuffs on a mob up at once not counting from subjob) - the problem is the amount of NMs which are heavily resistant/immune to our common enfeebles, and the increasing amount of NMs where enfeebles don't matter because all of their attacks are unnamed TP moves.

[Seriha]

Why would you invite those other jobs for anything, ever?Different job traits, job abilities, spells, skills, weapon/WS access, and gear more finely tuned to the prior. The Abyssea and Voidwatch proc systems are also another point to why you'd best flesh out your party roster. Regardless, being a "jack" in the MMO world is basically a death sentence for the very reason people try to justify them being not as good. It's no coincidence that the aspect of the job RDM got most shoehorned into technically required no gear to perform passably in the old days. Haste and Refresh were just as potent from a naked 48 RDM as it was the pimpest of 75s. And while we've seen more Cure Potency gear recently, you didn't need to keep the skill up to date and it's not like party members resist it. The job also hit the point where Slow and Para didn't matter because mobs died to fast, and the desired enfeeble, Dia, would always land anyway.

The hypothetically feared doomsday superman RDM can never exist as long as MP is finite and casting/melee aren't so mechanically opposite one another. The ideal should be that with the proper gear, sub, buffs, and food, the truly versatile RDM could step up as their party needs in an acceptable manner. At present, however, things are skewed heavily toward the job's magical aspects. Some are fine with that. Some will argue tooth and nail, belittling those who aren't. Some feel RDM should be a specialist, particularly of the enfeebling variety, but again you'll find those who feel melee integration has no place in that prospect because another job does X (and better!) even though it could yield appropriately powerful debuffs for the added risk. Some try to rationalize dev attention is limited, and that anything not fitting their agenda is a waste, but while things may be spread thin trying to give 20 jobs a little something throughout the cap increases (some definitely getting more than others), that doesn't mean job updates suddenly stop once we hit 99.

In general, people wishing for a more themely, versatile RDM isn't a new development. This isn't 75 anymore and part of the reasons against giving the job attention back then aren't much of a factor anymore. Healing? WHM's unquestionably better and could sub Refresh/Convert if they truly need it. Soloing? Behold numerous other jobs soloing things in Abyssea, or are more mechanically prohibiting like Voidwatch (and the inability to exploit pinning thanks to fight zone limitations). Nuking? Well, BLM and SCH are better by virtue of tiers alone and took advantage of the same exploits in their own solo endeavors. Relative to BLU, RDM can be similar, but still different, just as MNK and WAR are DDs of their own flavor. Not exactly close right now, however, and BLU will be pulling even farther ahead this update. Don't let the DD only types fool you, BLU rocks some solid utility potential.

[InfiniteKarma]

And even in FF5, Red Mages' melee damage pales in comparison to like the dozen other Job options that are more melee-focused.

Also: If RDM ever got even billing to where they could heal on par with WHM, melee on par with (I dunno, not the best example but...) PLD, and nuke on par with BLM...

Why would you invite those other jobs for anything, ever?

A job like RDM by its very design HAS to be worse at everything than a more dedicated job. :\

Because they are Better at what they do(RDM isn't suppose to be better at something or even level[even tho i said on par] its suppose to be slightly below but not far under where its useless] for example:

Random heal example
Cure ??? (both using same spell)
Potency of classes As follows:
Target of healings hp is: 1000
WHM heals for: 700
RDM heals for:450

Mob hits for: 300
Mob hits for:250

Notice how mob hits slightly under the RDM heals but has a consistency. While WHM is the better healer rdm can still step in JUST enough to keep them alive hes not taken the job away from the WHM. WHM still proves that his spot in PT is important anyone would want someone healing for 700 over 450.

I mean you don't see it the way i do and i am not sure if i could explain it any better but if people played RDM the way i explained i don't see why NOT to have one in a party its not about who does better in this case its who can cover the more GROUND and RDM definitely excels in this aspect of the job its not suppose to be better it never will be but what it loses in damage output and cure output it makes up in the sore areas of the PT i would call it the safety of the PT.

Bad case scenario:
When you have people who specialize in a job field and they are KO'd no one is going to cover down on them during a crisis(You just lost your primary expert in that field) that could be fatal in certain situations. BLM, WHM, DD, any of these KO'd in battle and you never had a rdm in the pt the party just lost major ground rdm can fill the slots temporary.

i cant see why not to have one and i am having a hard time understanding why you wouldn't either.

[Harukusan]

Bad case scenario:
When you have people who specialize in a job field and they are KO'd no one is going to cover down on them during a crisis(You just lost your primary expert in that field) that could be fatal in certain situations. BLM, WHM, DD, any of these KO'd in battle and you never had a rdm in the pt the party just lost major ground rdm can fill the slots temporary.

Are you talking about EXP parties or a significant event relevant to today? If this is an Abyssea EXP party, by all means the RDM can step in and swing it's sword with all it's heart. No one cares. I'm not letting my RDM (especially if I'm the RDM) poke at VW NMs when it can fill a much more important role: do it's freaking job!

Think about it like this: We can compare 3 jobs here: RDM, WAR, and BLM. Assume that all physical and magical skills were all in one big mess of a category, that means elemental skill is right next to your dagger skill or whatever (the point is let's ignore the fact that they are physical/magical). A WAR has several weapons to choose from, so why, barring procing situations, does it solely prefer to use a great axe? BLM has many magical capabilities and even has dagger and scythe skills, but typically only utilizes elemental magic (omg no way!). They have enhancing skill, but you don't see them buffing anyone but themselves when they need to. For that matter, why doesn't a MNK DD with a staff? A RDM has sword and dagger skills available to them, does that mean they should utilize this function in any portion of the game that actually matters? Take a moment to think about what I'm going to say... WAR and BLM use their respective skills because they excel at them the most. A RDM's specialty is Enhancing and Enfeebling. While I see that Joyeuse collecting dust in my mog house, I'm never tempted to grab it because I keep myself busy constantly covering the job that I was gifted with. RDM covers the Hasting, the Refreshing, and yes, I still cast Phalanx 2 on the tanks and sometimes DD because my Enhancing skill far exceeds that of every PLD I have ever met by at least 100 levels. I do all the debuffing that allow my party to fight with greater ease. That's the role of a RDM. They make everyone's lives easier. Whether or not some people will recognize it is up to them, and quite frankly they can rot for all I care.

Not everything is immune to RDM, in fact I know this because my NIN sticks debuffs on Abyssean NMs frequently. If NIN can do that, RDM can do that much better.

Just remember this: Every time a RDM picks up a sword, a small child is spontaneously killed by the baby shaking fairy.

[Tashan]

I actually like the OP.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I kill babies every other day then.

[Rearden]

That's what I was thinking aswell.

I was thinking the same.

[Zatias]

I lmfao at your sig Rearden.

Thread derailer.

[InfiniteKarma]

Are you talking about EXP parties or a significant event relevant to today? If this is an Abyssea EXP party, by all means the RDM can step in and swing it's sword with all it's heart. No one cares. I'm not letting my RDM (especially if I'm the RDM) poke at VW NMs when it can fill a much more important role: do it's freaking job!
Think about it like this: We can compare 3 jobs here: RDM, WAR, and BLM. Assume that all physical and magical skills were all in one big mess of a category, that means elemental skill is right next to your dagger skill or whatever (the point is let's ignore the fact that they are physical/magical). A WAR has several weapons to choose from, so why, barring procing situations, does it solely prefer to use a great axe? BLM has many magical capabilities and even has dagger and scythe skills, but typically only utilizes elemental magic (omg no way!). They have enhancing skill, but you don't see them buffing anyone but themselves when they need to. For that matter, why doesn't a MNK DD with a staff? A RDM has sword and dagger skills available to them, does that mean they should utilize this function in any portion of the game that actually matters? Take a moment to think about what I'm going to say... WAR and BLM use their respective skills because they excel at them the most. A RDM's specialty is Enhancing and Enfeebling. While I see that Joyeuse collecting dust in my mog house, I'm never tempted to grab it because I keep myself busy constantly covering the job that I was gifted with. RDM covers the Hasting, the Refreshing, and yes, I still cast Phalanx 2 on the tanks and sometimes DD because my Enhancing skill far exceeds that of every PLD I have ever met by at least 100 levels. I do all the debuffing that allow my party to fight with greater ease. That's the role of a RDM. They make everyone's lives easier. Whether or not some people will recognize it is up to them, and quite frankly they can rot for all I care.Not everything is immune to RDM, in fact I know this because my NIN sticks debuffs on Abyssean NMs frequently. If NIN can do that, RDM can do that much better.

Just remember this: Every time a RDM picks up a sword, a small child is spontaneously killed by the baby shaking fairy.

We make this a part of our job its not our priority though. You are one of people that sees RDMs by the image the game has them labeled on them you want them to specialize in something so you grab a staff and expect to think its a better idea then for this i propose you use WHM/RDM. You are now doing what you described and are expected to pick up a staff nothings changed but now you can rest assure that generally the idea is in the right jobs position. or you can try bard whichever.

This is not its job this its not its function (this doesnt mean dont do what he said) what you are doing is your giving it a one spot purpose it doesnt need to be that way if thats how you play it by all means do so. You just turned a Hybrid class into a Bard or a WHM now threads are going to contain "we need stronger spells in the enhancement department and healing department so we can compete with whms!"

Jack of all trades not grab a staff and do what the general public wants us to do develop your own playstyle.

[InfiniteKarma]

@Harukasan

But i see what your saying i think your biggest mistake is your comparing them.

[cidbahamut]

Just remember this: Every time a RDM picks up a sword, a small child is spontaneously killed by the baby shaking fairy.
This is actually an incentive to start meleeing.

[Quetzacoatl]

And even in FF5, Red Mages' melee damage pales in comparison to like the dozen other Job options that are more melee-focused.

Also: If RDM ever got even billing to where they could heal on par with WHM, melee on par with (I dunno, not the best example but...) PLD, and nuke on par with BLM...

Why would you invite those other jobs for anything, ever?

PLD for Tanking mobs that can't be blink-tanked, BLMs for -Ga, and WHM for AoE Healing. It wasn't exactly implied those specifics were going to RDM now, was it?

If we're going to go that route, how about we just slap RDM with Tier 5 single-target nukes, a healing spell that isn't Cure 5 but can help just as much, and A- Sword Skill with a respectable selection of Light-Armor Melee Gear (DAMN i'd love to see RDM in Loki's)? In essence, RDM in this perspective would show that it does everything, but it has nothing to overpower certain jobs with. Jack of all Trades, master of nothing.

[Gokku]

as long as blu exists you KNOW rdm is never getting the A- it needs

[Shiyo]

the increasing amount of NMs where enfeebles don't matter because all of their attacks are unnamed TP moves.
This is actually a huge concern of mine and needs to go away.

@gokku I assume you mean A+ and equal str/dex formula as 2h jobs use right? Cause 2h jobs having default ~60 acc/attk more than 1h's is INSANELY dumb. I don't agree with buffing lolmeleerdm though.

[Rearden]

more like 20-35 but yeah

[Gokku]

This is actually a huge concern of mine and needs to go away.

@gokku I assume you mean A+ and equal str/dex formula as 2h jobs use right? Cause 2h jobs having default ~60 acc/attk more than 1h's is INSANELY dumb. I don't agree with buffing lolmeleerdm though.

rdms have a B , at most they will get a boost to B+. blus have a A- they arent going to make red melee potential on the same level of blu's and thats were it needs to be skill wise to even have the ACC / ATK to really matter for levels 91-95 you gain 7 skill per level with any A ranked skill vs 5 for anything B. assuming that trend continues to 99 your looking at blu 417 base skill , Red 380 , 37 acc and atk difference is pretty big gap to cover without some major gear.

[Shiyo]

rdms have a B , at most they will get a boost to B+. blus have a A- they arent going to make red melee potential on the same level of blu's and thats were it needs to be skill wise to even have the ACC / ATK to really matter for levels 91-95 you gain 7 skill per level with any A ranked skill vs 5 for anything B. assuming that trend continues to 99 your looking at blu 417 base skill , Red 380 , 37 acc and atk difference is pretty big gap to cover without some major gear.
I wasn't arguing with you or anything, I was just saying all 1h jobs need to have the same base acc/attk as 2h.

[Vagrua]

Level58-Plague (Lowers MP and TP overtime)
Level79-Amnesia:Target Cannot use Abilities nor TP skills.


If RDM ever did get an Amnesia spell, I'd think it would get its own name.

As for plague, there is a spell already used by mobs known as Virus.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

rdms have a B , at most they will get a boost to B+. blus have a A- they arent going to make red melee potential on the same level of blu's and thats were it needs to be skill wise to even have the ACC / ATK to really matter for levels 91-95 you gain 7 skill per level with any A ranked skill vs 5 for anything B. assuming that trend continues to 99 your looking at blu 417 base skill , Red 380 , 37 acc and atk difference is pretty big gap to cover without some major gear.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that it's not a straight 1 attack / accuracy per skill.

[Gokku]

it might be .75 [er level above a point but still the diffrence would be major

[Ophannus]

Composure should give +Fencer and allow the use of exclusive sword weapon skills like Vorpal/Red Lotus/Sanguine

[Gokku]

what is red mages obsession with vorpal blade? Chant is more then Double the FTP mod and is 60% dex mod.... why would you want something worse then what you have, and dont argue almace is hard its the 3rd easyes empy to get. Fistule > Cara > Bman you can solo him and all his KI mobs on RDM and all your TE's / lights so whats the deal?

[Seriha]

A job shouldn't have to be level 90 and then some before it could even hope to begin playing an aspect of its theme. Not everyone goes 30-90 in a day. Some understand the concept of linear progression over the steep cliff that is Almace for RDM. Nobody's saying Vorpal is better than CDC, but it'd be nice for a RDM to have it without an otherwise frowned upon sub until they did get a CDC weapon. Sanguine Blade also has its place, and RDM is probably the best job for it, but... ya know, yay EX WS.

[Rearden]

I think you are at least didn't say that no one should need an empy to be good? Or did I read that wrong?

[Aramaru]

Wow, ya know.. almost everything you ask for can already be done ingame, as a Red Mage? Want more magic skills? Sub Scholar and use the appropriate Arts. Want missing Sword weapon skills and more Attack? Sub Dark Knight (and get a buncha 'missing' Black spells like Stun and Absorbs). While your intent is good, and heck, I was one of those RDMs who did melee.. when it was safe.. not if it had an AoE or silence or something.. I'd always make sure to DO MY JOB and Refresh/Haste etc. everyone FIRST..

I would like an A- rating in Swords and Daggers though. That won't really break anything; and to be honest, they could give an across-the-board boost to most jobs 'primary' weapon rankings in the same way for fairness. The spell and trait changes you listed are way too powerful though without severely nerfing the potency of the traits themselves (remember that enemies have the same jobs we do too..).

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Wow, ya know.. almost everything you ask for can already be done ingame, as a Red Mage? Want more magic skills? Sub Scholar and use the appropriate Arts. Want missing Sword weapon skills and more Attack? Sub Dark Knight (and get a buncha 'missing' Black spells like Stun and Absorbs). While your intent is good, and heck, I was one of those RDMs who did melee.. when it was safe.. not if it had an AoE or silence or something.. I'd always make sure to DO MY JOB and Refresh/Haste etc. everyone FIRST..

I would like an A- rating in Swords and Daggers though. That won't really break anything; and to be honest, they could give an across-the-board boost to most jobs 'primary' weapon rankings in the same way for fairness. The spell and trait changes you listed are way too powerful though without severely nerfing the potency of the traits themselves (remember that enemies have the same jobs we do too..).

No, not quite. Just because that is the job the "community" gave it doesn't mean that it is it's job.

[Rearden]

It's the job you're going to do if you want to be on RDM, else the door to solo land is that way ------>

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It's the job you're going to do if you want to be on RDM, else the door to solo land is that way ------>

I play as boringWHM, the actual "magical party enhancer" if I'm asked to do that.

[Rearden]

I'm sorry, so let me take a step back here and address this from a different direction.

What content @75 cap or now @90+ cap where a RDM wasn't tanking would a RDM be viable on the front lines?

[Aver]

I'm sorry, so let me take a step back here and address this from a different direction.

What content @75 cap or now @90+ cap where a RDM wasn't tanking would a RDM be viable on the front lines?

None, next question.

[Phafi]

I'm sorry, so let me take a step back here and address this from a different direction.

What content @75 cap or now @90+ cap where a RDM wasn't tanking would a RDM be viable on the front lines?

running up for a lulweaponbash after you stunned gates?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Not necessarily on GoH but I loved doing that Idk what you talking 'bout.

[Rayik]

I love RDM. I like casting spells and supporting the party. But, I like swinging my sword too, when it doesn't bring the party down.

The two biggest obstacles I see for RDM melee is counter-productive TP feed and lackluster non-Empyrean weaponskills. Shouldn't need a completed Empyrean for one aspect of the job to function "normally." Accuracy and Attack can be raised with food, atma if in Abyssea, etc. I melee pretty often, and against the mobs that are melee-friendly, Accuracy is barely an issue. And no, that does not include Voidwatch/HNM's. Let's not go there.

We're already getting some decent melee buffs in the next update, with more magic/enfeebling buffs on the way. Let's see what else SE has in store, and go from there. Even after we hit 99, we're still going to get updates. No need to panic, this isn't "last call" or anything.

[SpankWustler]

this isn't "last call" or anything.

If that is the case, I now have one or more serious regrets about the Galka in a subligar whose tail I just complimented.

Please excuse me while I make a most gentlemanly exit through the unlatched bathroom window.

[Harukusan]

The "community" gave RDM and several other jobs the roles they play because, guess what? It works. Game mechanics were not designed for a RDM to be a DD job. Just because it can swing it's paper cutter around doesn't mean it will be effective or beneficial in any party situation. It's completely counter-productive to feed TP to something when you can't put out any numbers to make up for the damage you are causing to your own allies. Hell, even in most solo situations for a RDM you are mostly better off grav/dot/nuking whatever NM assuming it is a worthwhile opponent.


However...
In an EXP party (alliance) of today's standards, I'm sure a well geared melee RDM could outperform over half the garbage DD that trail along with the groups. BTW (off topic) alliance parties are stupid. You have 16 leeches and 2 people actually doing any work. How do you expect people to learn to play their respective roles properly in that fashion? That's where all these "innovative ideas" are coming from...

[Neisan_Quetz]

Grav Nuking would be legit if, most of the NMs released after RotZ and not certain Nms in scars/visions weren't immune to it. At 90 I'd rate it far slower than Rdm/Blu facetanking unless you really need shadows/it's something like JoT. Blm or Sch would most definitely be faster if it's a nuke solo.

[Quetzacoatl]

as long as blu exists you KNOW rdm is never getting the A- it needs

BST and WAR have A- Axe Skill
COR and DNC have B+ Dagger Skill
MNK, SMN and WAR have B Staff Skill
RDM and WAR have B Sword Skill
BLU and WAR have B- Club Skill

I'm sorry, what?

[Gokku]

BST and WAR have A- Axe Skill
COR and DNC have B+ Dagger Skill
MNK, SMN and WAR have B Staff Skill
RDM and WAR have B Sword Skill
BLU and WAR have B- Club Skill

I'm sorry, what?

i dont get the what your trying to point out , but regardless ill direct you to pup who was promised an A- in hth and when it came down to it they were given a B+. if any skills got a raise it would be dagger / sword to B+ and healign /elemental to B/B-. i honestly dont see them making Rdm a better sword user then WAR the Duke of all things pointy.

[MarkovChain]

My suggestion to rebalancing RDM. SE must first decide what they want to do with the job. Healer ? Enfeebler ? wannabe DD ? Support ? Cure V fixes the first part. Tier 3 enfeebling fixes the second part. DD traits and WS fix the third (dual wield, strong ws). aoe mages or melee buffs fix the last part (can think of aoe haste or spike or magic acc or refresh). With whm cure VI enfeebling is completely pointless so abilities that cut/increase physical or magical damage seem more interesting. I was thinking of another spell like bio that would stack (attack down) or another spell like dia that would stack.

[Quetzacoatl]

i honestly dont see them making Rdm a better sword user then WAR the Duke of all things pointy.

Explain PLD and BLU then.

in before "they were made for it"

My point was, what would it matter if RDM and BLU had the same sword skill? With WAR and BST having the same Axe Skill, it's not going to make BSTs any more of a party job than WAR is. And WARs don't even use Axes anymore. So, really, why NOT give RDM an A- Sword Skill? What would it hurt?

I could agree to RDM getting B- to both Healing and Elemental, however.

[InfiniteKarma]

My suggestion to rebalancing RDM. SE must first decide what they want to do with the job. Healer ? Enfeebler ? wannabe DD ? Support ? Cure V fixes the first part. Tier 3 enfeebling fixes the second part. DD traits and WS fix the third (dual wield, strong ws). aoe mages or melee buffs fix the last part (can think of aoe haste or spike or magic acc or refresh). With whm cure VI enfeebling is completely pointless so abilities that cut/increase physical or magical damage seem more interesting. I was thinking of another spell like bio that would stack (attack down) or another spell like dia that would stack.

im all for tier 3 totally love me some enfeebles lolo

[Daniel_Hatcher]

i dont get the what your trying to point out , but regardless ill direct you to pup who was promised an A- in hth and when it came down to it they were given a B+. if any skills got a raise it would be dagger / sword to B+ and healign /elemental to B/B-. i honestly dont see them making Rdm a better sword user then WAR the Duke of all things pointy.

Erm... WAR is capable with all weapons, this doesn't mean they are masters of all weapons.

WAR are only truly masters with Great Axe and Axe.

[Gokku]

They honestly cant justify giving rdm an A+ / A / A- in sword or dagger skill without raising holy hell from any other respective job.

A+ sword = PLD has been replaced for tanking alot of critical mobs even with shield skill RDM can null a fuck ton of dmg

A- sword = rdms now out DD and out Nuke blue and feed less tp

B+ dagger = dancers would rage and Cor

A- dagger = Thfs would rage

and god forbid

A+ dagger = cor thf dnc would lose there shit

from a realistic balance aspect with en spell and phalanx and fencer they will never give rdm the A level skill it needs to be a mainstay as a melee on the front line.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

They honestly cant justify giving rdm an A+ / A / A- in sword or dagger skill without raising holy hell from any other respective job.

A+ sword = PLD has been replaced for tanking alot of critical mobs even with shield skill RDM can null a fuck ton of dmg

A- sword = rdms now out DD and out Nuke blue and feed less tp

B+ dagger = dancers would rage and Cor

A- dagger = Thfs would rage

and god forbid

A+ dagger = cor thf dnc would lose there shit

from a realistic balance aspect with en spell and phalanx and fencer they will never give rdm the A level skill it needs to be a mainstay as a melee on the front line.

Up blu to A sword skill, the only real bonus from sword skill now is from an accuracy standpoint.

As for B+ Dagger, I don't think I've even seen COR use a Dagger (But still they could up them with RDM), and DNC has enough traits to make them superior, they are already +35 Accuracy on traits which puts them above A+ Thieves on the base Accuracy front.

Personally I'm not for, or against a skill raise. I'd be fine with more WS's like RDM should have had in the beginning, but regardless it's impact on other jobs would be minute.

[Shiyo]

A- sword = rdms now out DD and out Nuke blue and feed less tp
...........lol............

[Gokku]

right so Almace * what a rdm should have dont argue it * + enspells + bliz / thunder 5 + phalanx + enfeebles + grav / bind + composure.

rdm would wipe the floor with blu if they were put on the same tier melee wise.

[Shiyo]

Currently bluemage outheals, outmelee dd's, and outnukes RDM. A- sword skill changes NOTHING.

[Hayward]

Currently bluemage outheals, outmelee dd's, and outnukes RDM. A- sword skill changes NOTHING.

Yeah, yeah...we get it, already. You want to change RDMs AF armor to pink cloth and take away Sword & Dagger skill and replace it with watered-down Staff skill. And for what? To pander to a playerbase that has no imagination or originality.

I see no rational reason for S-E to not make Red Mage as advertised--a fighter-mage, for those who don't remember. Game Balance is a weak dodge since they threw that concept out the window with 2-handed weapons. How is it overpowered for a Red Mage to have quality Weapon Skills in the weapons they are most capaple of using or to be able to augment their weapons with quality enhancement spells that kick in on every swing?

This irrational fear among the developers about jobs like Red Mage outshining the flavor-of-the-month melee jobs needs to be done away with and soon.

[Quetzacoatl]

right so Almace * what a rdm should have dont argue it * + enspells + bliz / thunder 5 + phalanx + enfeebles + grav / bind + composure.

rdm would wipe the floor with blu if they were put on the same tier melee wise.

erm, I hope you're not suggesting that RDM nukes and melees at the same time. Either way, How would RDM outnuke BLU in this instance? I have no intention of believing that RDM nukes would ever keep up with BLU's Physical Magic. It's not like Nukes are insta-cast, and you would have to swap into some major fast cast gear to alleviate the 10-14 seconds it takes to use Blizzard/Thunder 5. BLM has the advantage with Elemental Celerity as well as a certain degree of fast cast gear, -Jas, and higher Skill+/MAB, I don't see what your point is.

If anything, A- Sword Skill with the current gear options for RDM probably still wouldn't outdamage BLU. It may come close at points, but you can't ex

[Zatias]

Let's NOT nuke in elemental staves now~

[Quetzacoatl]

Let's NOT nuke in elemental staves now~

I know, right?

[Rayik]

Let's NOT nuke in elemental staves now~

MAB/M.Acc magian swords FTW!

I kid, I kid.

[MarkovChain]

Currently bluemage outheals, outmelee dd's, and outnukes RDM. A- sword skill changes NOTHING.

I think you are little optimistic here. It reminds me of RDM outtanking pld on bulbleberny. They didn't outank any DD though which means RDM was actually a pretty bad tank. Who cares if blu outheals rdm ? Does blu have refresh2? nope. It means that you must compare what is comparable. Right now you invite a RDM if you need refresh2, otherwise you don't care. You don't invite blu because they are useless. The idea of this thread is to make RDM more usefull though as anyone guessed.

[TybudX]

Yeah, yeah...we get it, already. You want to change RDMs AF armor to pink cloth and take away Sword & Dagger skill and replace it with watered-down Staff skill. And for what? To pander to a playerbase that has no imagination or originality.

I see no rational reason for S-E to not make Red Mage as advertised--a fighter-mage, for those who don't remember.

So wait, to you the player base going against what you see as SE's design does not show imagination, but sticking with the cliche 'fighter-mage' of some of the older FFs does? You didn't waste any time showing your hypocrisy there.

[SpankWustler]

Currently bluemage outheals, outmelee dd's, and outnukes RDM. A- sword skill changes NOTHING.

I get the first two, but the "out-nuke" bit doesn't really make sense to me. Unless you mean physical spells, being extremely limited by casting range and selection of elements pretty well sinks Blue Mage's battleship compared to any other job with magical damage.

If you do mean physical spells, that's a very odd comparison.

[Brightshadow]

Ok so I heard all the feedback sorry it took me so long to adjust the thread been busy playing lol :p. anyways in the Original post is all the changes. enjoy

[Aver]

I get the first two, but the "out-nuke" bit doesn't really make sense to me. Unless you mean physical spells, being extremely limited by casting range and selection of elements pretty well sinks Blue Mage's battleship compared to any other job with magical damage.

If you do mean physical spells, that's a very odd comparison.

I have no idea what you're talking about, my poison breath is boss.

[Malamasala]

I get the first two, but the "out-nuke" bit doesn't really make sense to me. Unless you mean physical spells, being extremely limited by casting range and selection of elements pretty well sinks Blue Mage's battleship compared to any other job with magical damage.

If you do mean physical spells, that's a very odd comparison.

Shock whiskars or whatever it is called can with MAB atmas do about 5000+ AOE thunder damage. I've seen BLUs kill 30 mobs instantly. I've yet to see any BLM attempt to one shot all abyssea mobs with one -ja nuke.

Of course if you just look at nuking a NM, I doubt BLU beats BLM.

[Neisan_Quetz]

-Ja and -aga spells deal reduced damage to multiple targets, CW does not... that's why blms don't attempt to one shot stuff with a single -aja/-aga spell.