[dev1027 - sort of] Recreating Crystal Clusters

[MDenham]

Since we're going to be getting stackable clusters, I'd like (and I'm pretty sure there are people who feel the same way, especially if they have a crystals-only mule) to see some way to recreate clusters from crystals.

Because of the limitations of the crafting system, it's obviously not going to be possible to make a synth - Synergy or otherwise - that does this, so here's my idea of how to handle this:

Add an NPC to the game who can accept crystals of any type, similar to Shami in Port Jeuno. You can retrieve individual crystals if necessary from this NPC, or, in exchange for reducing your stock of crystals by a certain amount (I'd lean towards 13, personally; while 12 means there's no loss of crystals in these exchanges, there are usually enough crystals generated that a small loss should be acceptable), you can obtain a cluster.

This method has the advantage of, well, being similar to Shami's existing system (only the numbers and specific items involved are different). I'm tempted to say some other things should be added (moving the HQ crystals out of the guild point system and making them cost two NQ crystals instead; possibly HQ clusters as well), but this would definitely work well enough as an method of decluttering inventory further.

[Korpg]

Clusters are hard to get now?

Besides, what is the point in holding extensive amounts of crystals? Sell your stacks when you get them and buy the stacks you want when you need them, in the amounts of what you need them for.

If AH doesn't have the crystals you want, go to sky and get some clusters yourself. Not that hard to solo them, even for melee SMNs.

[Finuve]

Clusters are hard to get now?do you think before you post?

this is a great idea since it will allow players to stack and sell clusters as they would tools, or allow crafters to stock up on crystals that were farmed without losing too much inventory

[Korpg]

do you think before you post?

this is a great idea since it will allow players to stack and sell clusters as they would tools, or allow crafters to stock up on crystals that were farmed without losing too much inventory

Again, what is the point in getting more crystals than needed? We are not hurting on inventory spaces at all. Instead of buying 20 stacks of ingredients to make whatever, why not just buy 1 stack of ingredients at a time and sell what you have on AH, or, in case buying one stack of ingredients at a time isn't feasible, have a mule that holds the ingredients and make one stack at a time.

There is no need to have a crystal mule, or to hold extensive amounts of crystals.

[Firebert_Lakshmi]

This is a nice idea. It reminds me of bagging tools or quivering arrows.

[Finuve]

Again, what is the point in getting more crystals than needed? We are not hurting on inventory spaces at all. Instead of buying 20 stacks of ingredients to make whatever, why not just buy 1 stack of ingredients at a time and sell what you have on AH, or, in case buying one stack of ingredients at a time isn't feasible, have a mule that holds the ingredients and make one stack at a time.

There is no need to have a crystal mule, or to hold extensive amounts of crystals.you and I arent hurting for inventory spaces with only a few jobs, but many people have 10+ jobs at 90 now, why have a mule hold ingredients and force logging and sending when u can just have your crystals piled up and open them when needed

there is no logical argument against this suggestion

[MDenham]

The main reason I personally have "extensive amounts of crystals" is because I'm a cheap bastard. I have the mules for other reasons, their inventory space isn't really being used, and I accumulated them back when most crystals were about 1k/stack - and dropping the gil to list them on the AH wasn't anywhere near an effective use of that gil.

There are other people who hold onto that kind of a stockpile because it's more convenient than grabbing crystals off the AH. (At least, in their own opinion. I'm not entirely sure how that works out.)

And really, the whole "clusters stack now" is about things being more convenient, so why not allow people to put together clusters from the crystals they picked up leveling Job #17 in a Gusgen Mines book burn?

[Karbuncle]

I like this idea, In fact i was considering making one about it myself... Being able to turn Crystals Into Clusters would be lovely.

[Limecat]

It would be nice, if just for the few recipes that require a cluster. Doesn't even need the fancy storage system, just being able to trade 12 crystals to your MH moogle or whatever to get a cluster back would be useful.

[kewitt]

you and I arent hurting for inventory spaces with only a few jobs, but many people have 10+ jobs at 90 now, why have a mule hold ingredients and force logging and sending when u can just have your crystals piled up and open them when needed

there is no logical argument against this suggestion



I have 15 jobs 65+ 12 of which are at 90.
I have a mule the stores all my stacks of crystals. Why because somedays I feel like crafting. so I craft 10 stacks worth of items then slowly sell them off threw out the week.

I would personally love a craft. alchemy level 1, Fire crystal + 11 fire crystals = fire cluster.

As for buying crystals off the AH. I do that too, when I'm in a rush. But normally crafting is done in my down time. So taking a few mins to mule over crystals that were free is nice.

Also I do power crafting arrows, and make 10-20 stack of quivers at a time, that a few crystals worth of crafting. so often times I seen the AH out of stock of the crystal I need. or last 10-20 on the AH and I buy few stack then the price goes from 1.5k to 2-3k a stack. killing my profit.

[Eurell]

Again, what is the point in getting more crystals than needed? We are not hurting on inventory spaces at all. Instead of buying 20 stacks of ingredients to make whatever, why not just buy 1 stack of ingredients at a time and sell what you have on AH, or, in case buying one stack of ingredients at a time isn't feasible, have a mule that holds the ingredients and make one stack at a time.

There is no need to have a crystal mule, or to hold extensive amounts of crystals.

What? I only have 3 jobs, 2 of which are severely undergeared, and I still have almost no space.

On topic: this is a good idea.

[Alhanelem]

What? I only have 3 jobs, 2 of which are severely undergeared, and I still have almost no space.

On topic: this is a good idea. Then you keep way too much junk. 1 character, no mules, 5 jobs (1 not really geared), I had enough space to save up 25 unstacakble red curries until my cooking skill finally reached the first hq tier for buns.

Anyway, I see breaking a crystal cluster as akin to scrambling an egg. You can't undo it. :p I guess I wouldn't complain if they added this though.

[Korpg]

What? I only have 3 jobs, 2 of which are severely undergeared, and I still have almost no space.

On topic: this is a good idea.

6 jobs, one of which is undergeared, one is overgeared (don't really need hMP set for BLM anymore), and I can still go naked with 6/80 inventory total when I want to spam cooking for red curry buns.

Maybe you need to do Gobbybag quests? Might just help you out.

[Seriha]

It's a good idea, ignore the haters.

[Gallus]

Good idea. The only haters on here are the trolls that complain about everything.

[Tamoa]

17 lvl 90 jobs, none of them undergeared although the jobs I use/like the most have the biggest gear selection. Stored everything possible for most of my jobs. Muled a TON of stuff, ra/ex stuff that's useless now but that I can't bring myself to toss. Mog House has almost no furnishings at all. Done all gobbie bag quests and have satchel.

I'm hurting for space all the time, and I welcome any sensible suggestion that can free up a couple of MH or inventory slots. Such as this one.

[Korpg]

17 lvl 90 jobs, none of them undergeared although the jobs I use/like the most have the biggest gear selection. Stored everything possible for most of my jobs. Muled a TON of stuff, ra/ex stuff that's useless now but that I can't bring myself to toss. Mog House has almost no furnishings at all. Done all gobbie bag quests and have satchel.

I'm hurting for space all the time, and I welcome any sensible suggestion that can free up a couple of MH or inventory slots. Such as this one.

How does crystals being converted to clusters help with your inventory? Just sell them when you get into town. Or drop the crystals. You shouldn't be in full gear when you synth for profit anyway, that is a lot of wasted space unless you are only going to synth a small amount of items.

To the BG crowd: I said 6 jobs, 1 of which is undergeared, 1 of which is overgeared. Learn to read before you make comments about my gear sets, which none of you have even seen at all.

[Alhanelem]

Good idea. The only haters on here are the trolls that complain about everything.I don't see any trolls in this thread, or any haters, either. I know you're referring to me, and Korpg, so you may as well just say it. But neither of us hated on anyone in this thread, nor did either of us troll anyone in this thread.

There's nothing wrong with the idea. I don't strictly see it as necessary, however it definitely wouldn't hurt anything.

[Yarly]

this is equivalent to quivering/toolbags, it's perfect this way

[MDenham]

How does crystals being converted to clusters help with your inventory?Well, let's just take the obvious case: you're doing ~100 synths.

After the update, you'll be able to hold this as a stack of clusters and just break clusters as needed, rather than buying up multiple stacks of crystals. Fine so far, right?

Now let's say you've come back from a GoV run with enough crystals and are like "hm, I want to use these up". But your only skillup synth is something that doesn't stack. Converting the crystals to clusters means you run out of inventory space less frequently (since you go from, say, 9 slots taken up with crystals to one slot taken up with clusters and one with crystals from the cluster you most recently re-broke), meaning you have to stop less frequently to dump off the synth results (or desynth them), meaning you save a little bit of time.

Is this a "OH GOD THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY, THE GAME SUCKS WITHOUT IT" idea? No. But neither is auto-repeating FoV/GoV pages. Neither is bait that stacks to 99 - or clusters that stack at all. Neither are Scrolls of Instant Warp for 10CP instead of 1000.

It's just convenient, that's all. It's not even an easy-mode button, since you still have to come up with the crystals somehow.

EDIT: I'd also like to thank Alhanelem for being more reasonable about this than Korpg is. :D

[Alhanelem]

The only real problem i see is with the explanation of reintegrating crystals. It's only because when you use a crystal, you make an animation where the crystal breaks apart. How do we put it back together again? glue?

(It's a rhetorical question, and not completely serious.)

I think clusters were originally introduced simply as a way to allow certain monsters e.g. elementals to drop large numbers of crystals with the limited size treasure pool. That said, It's a good idea, it doesn't hurt anything, it's only a matter of if the devs have time for it or not.

[Zagen]

The only real problem i see is with the explanation of reintegrating crystals. It's only because when you use a crystal, you make an animation where the crystal breaks apart. How do we put it back together again? glue?
Not glue, Duct Tape! :D

[Korpg]

Well, let's just take the obvious case: you're doing ~100 synths.

After the update, you'll be able to hold this as a stack of clusters and just break clusters as needed, rather than buying up multiple stacks of crystals. Fine so far, right?

Ok, I will admit, that would be helpful. But then people will buy clusters for this aspect, or buy a stack of crystals at a time, which is what I do when I spam synth stuff.

[Seriha]

How they recombine doesn't really matter. From the functional standpoint, it's 144 crystals in 1 slot versus 144 in 12. Nobody should have to sell off excess, only to need some later and find the AH out or 2x more expensive than when they initially sold them. If someone wants to be a pack rat, let them.

[Alhanelem]

Do you ever really need 144 crystals in a single sitting or need to have that many in reserve is really the question I guess.

I suppose if we're going to enable stackability then we should be able to apply that to the crystals we get from normal monsters and not just the clusters from elementals.

[Gallus]

Recombining crystals: A level 0 synth that takes 1 of the 12 crystals and is used on the remaining ones to create the cluster. Problem solved with having it make sense.

[Kysaiana]

I always kinda wished you could convert crystals back into a cluster. Even if it's uses are fairly limited.

As for how? "A wizard did it," http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt (A Wizard Did IT), should suffice for a Fantasy game.

[Economizer]

Personally, I love the suggestion to merge crystals into clusters. Perhaps this could be possible with one of the Rank 1 Conquest NPCs who sit in the top ranked city. However, being able to store crystals is a horrifically bad idea.

Alternatively, here is a good idea I almost missed:


Recombining crystals: A level 0 synth that takes 1 of the 12 crystals and is used on the remaining ones to create the cluster. Problem solved with having it make sense.

-


there is no logical argument against this suggestion

It's the economy, stupid. (No offense here, just quoting some saying, again, I'm not trying to name call.)

There will already be a massive effect on the game economy by making these things stackable, but I think this can be handled. Crystals are a lot like oil. Imagine if you could store oil indefinitely and at no cost to you. People would horde it instead of selling it, and the cost would get massive up and downturns.

Being able to store crystals in this way would be incredibly destructive to the game economy - the availability of crystals would go down, since there would be no cost to holding them until you could get a better price.

[Kimble]

Really would be no harm in doing this, not sure why anyone would so adamantly argue against it.

[MDenham]

Being able to store crystals in this way would be incredibly destructive to the game economy - the availability of crystals would go down, since there would be no cost to holding them until you could get a better price.The difference here is that anyone can get crystals, whereas it takes a significant financial investment to get oil. So the "crystals are like oil" analogy isn't a very good one. (The worst-case scenario under this is "everybody farms their own crystals because there's never any on the AH", which is both unlikely and really not that far from what Korpg is suggesting people do in the first place anyway.)

I have no problem with it being just a simple "trade a stack of crystals to this NPC, get a cluster" method, though. (Having it as a synth requires reworking the synthesis system, because currently it doesn't support synths with more than 8 ingredients. If this limitation were removed, I'd make it a level-0 Synergy production instead - with the idea being that it's the fewell being used to rebind the cluster.)

[InfiniteKarma]

[Alhanelem]Do you ever really need 144 crystals in a single sitting or need to have that many in reserve is really the question I guess.

I suppose if we're going to enable stackability then we should be able to apply that to the crystals we get from normal monsters and not just the clusters from elementals. [/QUOTE]

I cant not see this being extremely helpful to people who level and would like to craft. if the AH goes down on crystals regardless it still seems easier to get stacks of crystals through leveling different jobs. convert them through clusters and store them. I think in my opinion its a better choice.

[InfiniteKarma]

Failed at quoting lol

[Meyi]

Do you ever really need 144 crystals in a single sitting

Yes.

When I synth I synth a lot. I will often make 30+ stacks of Silent Oils and Echo Drops in one sitting on my Alchemy Mule.

Does it really bother you that much if someone has a stack of crystal clusters? Really? Is this not something petty to get upset over? Does it affect game play and cause an unfair balance for anyone? No? Then let's stop raining on people's parade, shall we.

You don't like the idea, then that's fine. We already know you don't like it. No need to post it over and over while trying to undermine other people's thoughts on the matter. Some people think this is a great idea, especially for when they want to craft. It's not game breaking and it's most certainly not an extreme suggestion like some of the recent updates that Square Enix has given us so let it go.

For the record I never have room for didly squat. I have one job decently geared (though still missing a few delicious pieces I'd like to get my hands on), and two poorly equipped jobs that don't blink but I would like to make them blink eventually. You think I'm a bad player because I'm always full on inventory? Well I can flip the tables and say you're a bad player for not equipping yourself up to par, because if you did get situational pieces, you'd be full too.

[Tamoa]

How does crystals being converted to clusters help with your inventory? Just sell them when you get into town. Or drop the crystals. You shouldn't be in full gear when you synth for profit anyway, that is a lot of wasted space unless you are only going to synth a small amount of items.


I keep fire crystals because I make red curry and red curry buns for myself and my friends.

4 stacks of fire crystals = 4 MH/inventory slots occupied.
4 stackable fire clusters = 1 MH/inventory slot occupied.

Yes, it's not a lot and not game breaking in any way. But when you have as much gear as I do, every bit helps. Red curry and red curry buns are also both synths which require non-stackable ingredients, and red currys aren't stackable either. So I have to empty my inventory as much as possible before I start synthing. And even if I fill up satchel and sack (other MH storage options are always 80/80) with gear from my inventory, I'm still something like 45-50ish/80. So like I said, I welcome any sensible suggestion that will free up some inv/MH space for me.

[Kavik]

I agree it would be nice to be able to re-cluster crystals. Hell we have a tarutaru 'brown' mage just for purging food, i don't it'd be that odd for one mage to figure out how to recluster crystals, with fire crystals you would be 'melting' the crystals back together, with earth ones you would be 'fusing' them etc, so it would not be too horrible, another idea that is a little off topic, they could simply make individual crystals stack to 99, can't be any harder then making the clusters stack in the first place, i imagine the code to go something like Earth crystal stack size = 12 Earth Cluster stack size = 1 or in tech geek terms Item <insert item # here> = limit 1, so in theory, if this code is anything like the besieged code they changed (adding 0's = YAY! in that instance) all they have to do is change that little "12" to a little "99", clusters could still give you 12 crystals, you would just need more of them to stack those individual crystals to 99. Changing it in the AH wouldn't be too difficult either i imagine, no more so then having to put stacks of clusters in the AH.

[Alhanelem]

Does it really bother you that much if someone has a stack of crystal clusters? Really? Is this not something petty to get upset over?I'm not upset. Didn't you see I'm (slightly) in favor of this idea? I'm merely posing the question.

[Korpg]

I agree it would be nice to be able to re-cluster crystals. Hell we have a tarutaru 'brown' mage just for purging food, i don't it'd be that odd for one mage to figure out how to recluster crystals, with fire crystals you would be 'melting' the crystals back together, with earth ones you would be 'fusing' them etc, so it would not be too horrible, another idea that is a little off topic, they could simply make individual crystals stack to 99, can't be any harder then making the clusters stack in the first place, i imagine the code to go something like Earth crystal stack size = 12 Earth Cluster stack size = 1 or in tech geek terms Item <insert item # here> = limit 1, so in theory, if this code is anything like the besieged code they changed (adding 0's = YAY! in that instance) all they have to do is change that little "12" to a little "99", clusters could still give you 12 crystals, you would just need more of them to stack those individual crystals to 99. Changing it in the AH wouldn't be too difficult either i imagine, no more so then having to put stacks of clusters in the AH.

You know how long, or how expensive crystal stacks would be if they stacked them to 99?

[Godofgods]

Do you ever really need 144 crystals in a single sitting or need to have that many in reserve is really the question I guess..

Yes. I have 8 mules that were dedicated to holding crystals. And i used em all. And i often ran out. Most serious crafters will go though a ton of crystals. Most will get soem random crystals here and their, but its not much. Over a little bit of time however it does add up, and next thing u no your mule has a ton of stacks that you can use, at no cost to you. The same thing applies to farming them as well.

Iv had several large crafting binges where i was not capable of holding all the meterals i was useing on a single character. And thats not even including crystals.

Id love to see a synth to make a stack of crystals into a cluster. Just because of the space it would save. Turning 12 stack of crystals into one stack of clusters... Yes Please.

Edit: My suggestion was subbmitted earlier in the ITEMS&crafting section

[Alhanelem]

When i went on a crafting spree, I didn't keep 16 million crystals on hand. I got them as I needed them (which I did) and most of the space you would have spent on crystals i needed for the items I was making (red curries) which I was holding until i reached the skill necessary for the HQ tier on red curry buns.

I'm not really a diehard crafter, though this specific thing I've spent a fair amount of time and space with trying to cap cooking.

[InfiniteKarma]

You know how long, or how expensive crystal stacks would be if they stacked them to 99?

Do you know how hard it is to craft without this option? regardless that you have stacks of clusters to 99. Hard to get that but then again currency has limits too not everyone can get LARGE amounts of gil but the gil they do have it safely storage d so they don't have to get rid of it if you get what i am saying.

With that people who have around like 4 stacks of crystals and do not want to get rid of them 12x4=48 now you have 1 slot instead of like 4slots taken away.

seems like a sick idea to me.

But in the Case of Clusters they count as 1 so instead of 48 crystals- clusters would be---1 out of 99 and that STILL only stacks to 1 slot now you just made the idea even better. its great its convenient its not a idea that people should see negative at all. and for those wishing to save gear for spots can now worry about different things because they have more slots in Mog house for it

[InfiniteKarma]

i am sorry 4 out of 99 if you did not catch my math mistake.

[Economizer]

Do you know how hard it is to craft without this option? regardless that you have stacks of clusters to 99.

Part of this game involves balancing things for farmers as well as crafters. Having 144 crystals to a stack using clusters, is going to be pretty amazing as is. Clusters are stacking to 12, not 99.

I support reforming clusters, but I don't support additional suggestions to make them easier to store, short of some insane cluster bag that is further stackable.

[Behemothx]

Clusters are hard to get now?

Besides, what is the point in holding extensive amounts of crystals? Sell your stacks when you get them and buy the stacks you want when you need them, in the amounts of what you need them for.

If AH doesn't have the crystals you want, go to sky and get some clusters yourself. Not that hard to solo them, even for melee SMNs.

Seriously man, why are you so negative in EVERY damn post? Having lots of crystals to skill up crafting rocks.

[Neonii]

The only real problem i see is with the explanation of reintegrating crystals. It's only because when you use a crystal, you make an animation where the crystal breaks apart. How do we put it back together again? glue?

(It's a rhetorical question, and not completely serious.)

I think clusters were originally introduced simply as a way to allow certain monsters e.g. elementals to drop large numbers of crystals with the limited size treasure pool. That said, It's a good idea, it doesn't hurt anything, it's only a matter of if the devs have time for it or not.

Some type of magic of course.

[InfiniteKarma]

Part of this game involves balancing things for farmers as well as crafters. Having 144 crystals to a stack using clusters, is going to be pretty amazing as is. Clusters are stacking to 12, not 99.

I support reforming clusters, but I don't support additional suggestions to make them easier to store, short of some insane cluster bag that is further stackable.

When you add that to the mix i see where you're coming from then how about a sold option? say... Mog house option allows 99 clusters, but AH would offer a stack as they are normal? it shouldn't unbalance it stock prices should remain the same collection of crystal sizes seems more feasible then before.

The only issue with this is that people would most likely abuse the AH prices by overpricing due to high amounts of product (crystals) and unlimited supply storage. leading to retarded amounts for a stack of crystals you probably could just end up farming. Hmm this is a toughy...

Or you might even get the Opposite effect due to high amounts of crystals stock prices will either drop from AH and we would probably be around 1-2k a stack (could only imagine if we go back to the old days where they were 800stack-500gil *drool*) i hate economics there's usually always a case where 50/50 chance =/

I like the 99 option for mog houses it seems more helpful to have unlimited supply storage for items on crafting so it does not interfere with storage that could be spent on gear. Mules should not be a must.

[Divinius]

I'm not sure about making single crystals stack to 99... this idea has been mentioned in the past and (if I recall) SE was not interested in doing this for some reason. Might be the disjoint between clusters breaking to 12, and stacks being not 12, I don't know. I just recall it being brought up and rejected a few times in the past (and no, I have no sources to quote other than my own memory, sorry.)

As for reforming crystals into clusters, I would be all for that, now that they will be stackable. Something that could be done on-the-fly would be ideal (as in, out in the field, not requiring an NPC or some such). When out leveling jobs and such, having to toss crystals that I'm getting due to inventory space is kinda silly, knowing that I'm just going to have to buy some at the AH next time I want to craft. Being able to "squish" them back into stackable clusters would indeed be awesome.