It's time we ask the devs once again. How exactly DOES Treasure Hunter work?

[Melphina]

I know this question has been asked in the past and the devs refused to comment on the details, but a lot has changed over the eight years this game has been around and I think it's time to ask them again. I would like to ask the devs exactly what treasure hunter does.... not with a response that "it makes stuff drop more", but exactly what the different treasure hunter thresholds do.

A lot of the strife revolving around the Thief job is the ambiguity of the drop system and the meaningfulness of our "Treasure Hunter" ability. In fact the drop system itself is a mystery. I have heard people who believed that every item has a specific chance to drop and when a mob dies the game rolls a random number to determine if the item falls based on its drop percentage. They believe that each level of treasure hunter allows a "reroll" of the die, so if an item has a 10% chance of dropping then with Treasure Hunter 7 the game will random up to seven times until either the item is dropped (resolving in the item dropping) or all chances are used up (The item does not drop). A second belief is that each item has a set percentage to drop with no TH and each level of Treasure Hunter increases the actual percentage of the item dropping, but you still get only one roll of the random number generator when the mob dies (in other words if it had a 10% drop rate Treasure Hunter 7 may make it a 40% drop rate)

Players have tried to test treasure hunter for years. We used to think the job traits and equipment bonuses were separate in strength ( TH 1 and TH 2 job traits were commonly accepted to be vastly stronger than TH 3 (knife) or TH4 (Knife + AA), and so players used to say TH4 was actually TH2 + 2, or Treasure hunter 2 job trait plus a 2% bonus (hands and knife each equating to a 1% increase).

Now we are playing under a system where the mob's treasure hunter level is visible in the chat log and we still can't determine how useful higher levels of treasure hunter actually are. As far as the eye can tell there is very little difference in noticeable drop rate between a mob inflicted with Treasure Hunter 6, and a mob with a whopping Treasure Hunter 12. For all we know drop rates have a cap like everything else in this game.

S-E changed the rules of play when they made Treasure Hunter show up in the chat log, but it really hasn't helped the job's image because we have no way to measure what these numbers actually DO. I must reiterate that it is extremely difficult to tell the difference between a mob procced with Treasure Hunter 6 and a mob procced with treasure Hunter 11. It feels as if the entire worth of our job is based on the outcome of a single roll of the dice.

In summary S-E's vision for thief revolves highly around our coveted "Treasure Hunter" ability; so much so that in order to balance this all powerful ability they have nerfed much of our other potentials to preserve balance. If the devs at S-E feel this ability is so powerful and important I think it's fair to ask them for a more clear definition of what the ability specifically does.

[noodles355]

Putting money on them not telling us and the reason they're not telling us is because:
Adding a more significant drop rate to things would unbalance the game.
They dont want to admit it does nothing as thief would lose it's spot in an alliance.

[Babekeke]

It's time we ask the devs once again. How exactly DOES Treasure Hunter work?

Because if we just keep on asking, like a kid asking 'why?' they're bound to listen to us? Oh wait or they might just send us to bed without any supper :(

[Nebo]

Because if we just keep on asking, like a kid asking 'why?' they're bound to listen to us? Oh wait or they might just send us to bed without any supper :(

Maybe. But I also think it's time we knew what it does...specifically.

[Scribble]

I still believe that says certain drops remain unaffected by treasure hunter.

I also think they added the spell effect and counter for the sake of thieves being told their TH sucks. Now instead of hanging your head in shame when you don't get dorpz people can see that you did your part stacking it up and they leave you alone about it.

It wouldn't have much (if any) affect other than placebo even if you did know. If a dev were to come on this thread and say 'Each level increase of TH increases drop percentage by .5%' you would still log on tomorrow and try to stack it as high as possible. The same thing you would be doing prior to having this knowledge.

[noodles355]

I still believe that says certain drops remain unaffected by treasure hunter. That's been proven for years. NMs with 2 different items that share the same drop slot, with one of them dropping 100% is unaffected by treasure hunter. Like Okote, Dring, etc.

[Nebo]

If a dev were to come on this thread and say 'Each level increase of TH increases drop percentage by .5%' you would still log on tomorrow and try to stack it as high as possible. The same thing you would be doing prior to having this knowledge.

I don't do that now.

[Scribble]

That's been proven for years. NMs with 2 different items that share the same drop slot, with one of them dropping 100% is unaffected by treasure hunter. Like Okote, Dring, etc.

Right. I guess I worded that improperly. I was just pointing out that with the given knowledge and now that we understand exactly what increases the chance of gaining TH levels, we don't really need to know anything else.

We know some items are not affected at all. It's also likely that there are items intended to be more rare that are only affected up to a certain point. It just seems like overkill to me when the general consensus is 'stack it as high as possible for good measure' anyway.

[Vold]

It just seems like overkill to me when the general consensus is 'stack it as high as possible for good measure' anyway.True, but the biggie infos here that we want to know more than anything is 1)how does TH3 work differently from THII, because it does. It's either gimped or there's some kind of cap on drops in game so it's not gonna work for common drops, and 2)can I just kick my THF to the curb in favor of WAR/THF when I'm farming so I can kill infinitely faster. And #2 is exactly why they'll probably never answer the TH question.

From what I can tell so far, my days of farming TW stuff on THF are over, and is still a go for anything EP or higher. Which is a shame because I enjoy farming old school targets. I enjoy going to beastmen strongholds. I enjoy playing my THF. And when I heard we were getting THIII it was the best news I've had in years. But it's not really THIII. It's more like THII +1-10 and you need +7 and up to see any decent change. Whatever the case may be with the TH system, it's clear to me they restrict it in some form to keep drops in check. Which is fine and dandy but the least we could have got was a THIII boost that was significant enough that we wouldn't be questioning it months after it came into the picture.

My TH6 drop rates aren't much different from THII. So basically 3-6 are next to worthless, making that shiny new THIII trait nothing more than a look at and feel good thing. THIII has the appearance of a Lamborghini but it runs like a Yugo.

Here's some more conspiracy nut math: TH12. 1+2=3. TH12 = real TH3. But since the only time you really see TH12 is in Voidwatch where drop rates are crap, no one is the wiser. Could this be the case? Where they sort of stretched TH out so we could benefit from it but not cause the end of the world on weaker stuff? Who knows.

[Scribble]

If I had to make a guess concerning drops that any TH works on(main or subbed), I would say that the traits act separately from the increases. That is, the moment someone with TH strikes a mob, the % chance or roll restrictions are established and increase from there. The effect of this increase is different depending on the possible treasure pool, but only applies once for each item.

Example disclaimer: Not accurate maths!
Lets say a 89 WAR/THF and a 89 Thf/XXX are in East Ron slaughtering Carrion Worms. The warrior kills worms only applying TH I trait so their chance of getting a silver ore is only 3%. 90 Thf on the other hand is applying TH II and this alone gets them a base 5% chance to get a silver ore.

At level 90 increase the WAR and THF go back out to test again. The WAR now has a 5% chance with TH II and the THF with TH III also has a 5% chance of seeing the same drops, but can increase that with procs. If by chance the THF gets a proc then their drop rate increases by X% or the range for their roll is increased, but only on loot which is eligible to be affected by increases.

I think the idea is that when you are farming for items from TW mobs which already have a fairly high drop rate, further TH trait increase will have a smaller effect on those rates than on something more rare. For those rare items, increasing your TH procs has more effect than just the trait. So if you have say a 20% drop rate on flint stones then the added 2% you would pick up by switching from TH I to TH II traits isn't nearly as important as if you're dealing with a piece of gear that has a 3% drop rate that you could increase to 5% with procs increasing that even further. Theoretically you would go from increasing your chance by 10% on easy drops to doubling your chance on something that is very rare.

All speculation, but I still don't think it's a big deal either way. If I really wanted a drop I would try to stack as much TH procs as I could. For farming something with a fairly high drop rate, your killing speed vs the extra drop rate would probably even each other out.

[noodles355]

I was just pointing out that with the given knowledge and now that we understand exactly what increases the chance of gaining TH levels, we don't really need to know anything else. Incorrect. We need to know how effective each level is so we can weigh up prolonging the fight to try and proc as high as possible vs just getting TH6 and then killing it quickly and popping another/moving on.

[Melphina]

There are certain things we do know about drop rates. Some item drops are classified into "groups", and some of these "groups" have a 100% chance to load but because there are X items in that group the game will random a second time to pick which of the items loads. Pixie Earring vs. Defending Ring and O-Kotes vs. Impact Knuckles are examples of this because the "slot" these items share loads 100%. Treasure Hunter has no effect on which of the items loads because they have their own drop percent within the pool. Statistically D ring and O kotes percent is very low (in the 5% range), whereas Pixie and Impact knuckles are close to 95%. Thus Treasure Hunter's effect raises the chance of item slots loading which are less than 100%, but has no effect on choosing which item loads when there are multiple items in a "group". In a majority of cases desirable items are less than 100% drop rate and not grouped with other items, so if the slot loads it will always be that item. In these cases the drop rate is typically much lower than 100%. Some notable examples are Loki's Khaftan or Goetia Chain, the second empyrean weapon upgrade item on each mob, and Linen Coinpurses in salvage. Finally in some cases BOTH scenario's are true. An item "slot" has less than 100% chance to load, and comprises a group of several items. Nidhogg's second abjuration is an example of this.

This is the end of our knowledge and from here on everything else is hearsay. As several others have said I am not expecting a straight answer from S-E either, but I believe we have the right to ask so I brought it up. This is something we obviously can't figure out ourselves because the random number generator is too random, and statistical testing requires a vast sample size with no errors in collection (which people will be biased towards even if such a size were collected because it's impossible to prove there were no errors by the individual). If S-E at the very least could throw us a bone I would be happy to have the answers to the following questions.

1: Do item drop rates which are not already 100% have a cap whereupon Treasure Hunter can no longer increase the chance of it dropping? (I have a feeling the answer is yes, but it would be really good to know).

2: Does "Treasure Hunter" work in such a way that it increases the actual PERCENTAGE of an item dropping but the item is only rolled for once, or does Treasure Hunter increase the number of times an item is randomed for but the drop percentage remains unaffected with each successive roll of the die?

At this point even if they don't explain the difference between each tier of treasure hunter I'd be happy if they just answered those two questions. It's kind of sad because these are pretty basic things to want to know, and we will never be able to figure them out without a direct answer from S-E themselves. It's been eight years and S-E has changed their stance on so many things (including raising the level cap). I believe it's time they throw us a bone and change their stance on requiring EVERY aspect of Treasure Hunter's workings to remain a mystery as well. At least tell us SOMETHING more than "increases drop rates".... that's so ambiguous it's mind numbing.

[Babekeke]

I'd probably settle for SE just letting us know whether TH is also affected by other factors, such as time of day/week/moon/year. At least then we could look at TH testing and all go "aaah that's why we got so many more drops with TH2 than we expected, it was JP primetime at full moon in the 'fall' season!" Or whatever^^

[Alaik]

My heart dreamed that every character has a hidden luck stat, that gives natural TH or -TH, and THF is placebo.

</sarcasm>

[SpankWustler]

I'm pretty sure their explanation would go pretty much like this:

"It was very early morning. Treasure Hunter stumbled out alone into a wet brick street. Southward the barrage balloons, Treasure Hunter values on the combers of morning, were increasing, pink and pearl, in the chat log.

They've cut Treasure Hunter loose again, he's back on the street, no drops, last chance for a numerical increase 'n' he blew it...

Why didn't they keep Treasure Hunter on at that Notorious Monster for as long as they said they would - wasn't it supposed to be a few Vana'diel days? No explanation - just "Cheerio!" and the onionskin sending him back to that Abyssea-Tahrongi. The Windurst Kid, and that Galka the Sandorian and his sidekick Manthra have been all his world for these recent days ... there were still problems to be worked out, adventures not yet completed, coercions and vast deals to be made on the order of the old woman's arrangement for getting her Treasure Hunter over the Notorious Monster. But now, rudely, here's that lack of drops again.

But something's different ... something's ... been changed ... don't mean to increase Treasure Hunter values, folks, but - well for instance he could almost swear values increase, or change anyway. Some of the Treasure Hunter value increases are pretty slick, but others he can spot, all right. Xmas shopping yesterday at that Abyssea-Tahrongi, he caught a certain pair of Glavoid Shells in the toy section, past a heap of balsa-wood Adamantoises and little-kid-size Wyrms. A hint of constancy to what shows up in the rearview mirror of his Chocobo, no color or model he can pin down but something always present inside the tiny frame, has led him to start checking out other drop rates when he goes off on a morning's work. Things on Glavoid at Abyssea-Tahrongi seem not to be where they were. Girls have found excuses not to keep appointments. He feels he's being gently separated from the life he lived before going into Abyssea-Tahrongi. Even in Abyssea - Grauberg there's always a Treasure Hunter value increase behind him being careful not to talk, rattle paper, laugh too loud : Treasure Hunter's been to enough movies that he can pick up an anomaly like that right away."

So, I don't know how helpful it would actually be.

[Babekeke]

SpankWustler, you need help... seriously!