So, no more random WoE coins at all?

[scaevola]

As far as I can tell, nobody's getting coins from lesser mobs in WoE on the Test Server.

Seems a little awful if true. If I had the time to rut around the Test Server I wouldn't need to solo coins at odd hours to begin with, so can anybody confirm or deny this?

[Xellith]

When I read that drops were removed from lesser mobs... I cried a little inside... easier to get abyssea weapons than walk of echos weapons? what the deuce!

[brayen]

Man really no singles from mobs is gonna turn WoE from a random 1-3 ppl in the zone to 0. WoE version is already a weaker version of empy weapons, but now if you add that you require help to get past this stage, since you need to clear the WoE level, i can't see who would be able to do it without using up the same amount of resources as it would take to even do empy of the equivalent stage.

The changes seem nice, and i could be wrong and the new loot really brings everyone out there, but as it stands it seems the one reason people went to WoE (soloing for coins) is going to be gone.

[Zagen]

Funny thing is lately I've seen far more shouts for WoE than I did before the changes

[Zatias]

Funny thing is lately I've seen far more shouts for WoE than I did before the changes

That's because you wont be able to go in and solo it anymore ;(

Stating the obvious. Shh.

[Dragoy]

It was announced here on 07-26-2011 that 'random coins' would be no more:


Thanks for all your opinions regarding the changes to Walk of Echoes

There were some questions both here and on the Japanese forums, so here is some additional info on what’s being planned

And in that same thread, my observations thus far:


Has anyone tried with a party or more on the test-server?
I did one run at antlions and one at crabs, solo, and all I noticed was:


No loot from little ones, at all (...).
Warning messages when the monsteres 'thirst fer blood' meaning they're coming for a look-see (nice).
Auto-reraise (yay).

Other than that, the monsters seem as tough as before, so it would seem just as I feared: No more soloing, duoing, or even trioing them coins...

Was it not supposed to be improved?
This is it?

I
Don't
Get
It
...

[Khiinroye]

#2 was always pretty easy to clear, even at lv 75. #5 and #7 are easy to clear with a few smns. I have never understood why the 3-5 solo people who always seem to be there never team up to win #2.

[Zagen]

That's because you wont be able to go in and solo it anymore ;(

Stating the obvious. Shh.

Oh so now its a group event (which it was always intended to be a group event, SE just sucked at balancing the point system for rewards) in an mmo that's unheard of...

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Except that there are several jobs that are all but completely useless in a group and will never be invited to one. And, for the millionth time, if you assemble such a group then you are 95% of the way towards a real empyrean.

[Zagen]

Except that there are several jobs that are all but completely useless in a group and will never be invited to one. And, for the millionth time, if you assemble such a group then you are 95% of the way towards a real empyrean.
Which are "useless"?

While I don't disagree getting a group together for WoE means you can get an Emp with the same group it doesn't change the fact that WoE can be much faster to complete as once the 30 coins are out of the way you have a lvl 90 version available since the crests parts are a joke.

Some people are happy with an inferior weapon, if that weren't the case WoE wouldn't have been done by soloers at all in the past.

[scaevola]

Some people are happy with an inferior weapon, if that weren't the case WoE wouldn't have been done by soloers at all in the past.

It's not that people necessarily prefer an inferior weapon; it's that the ODD Aftermath is, for many, not worth giving up what essentially amounts to a pause button for FFXI.

Although I don't know why I'm even responding to this, because if the reasons for choosing to primarily play solo are not immediately obvious to you I don't think me explaining it will help.

[Zagen]

It's not that people necessarily prefer an inferior weapon; it's that the ODD Aftermath is, for many, not worth giving up what essentially amounts to a pause button for FFXI.

Although I don't know why I'm even responding to this, because if the reasons for choosing to primarily play solo are not immediately obvious to you I don't think me explaining it will help.

Your logic amazes me... You want to play solo in an MMO...

[svengalis]

Except that there are several jobs that are all but completely useless in a group and will never be invited to one. And, for the millionth time, if you assemble such a group then you are 95% of the way towards a real empyrean.

Not really because with empyrean you need war for red which is hard to find. I bet it would 10x easier to form a group for woe now then it would be to form one for a certain empyrean that you wanted after these changes. I am talking about everyday.

[Zatias]

Not really because with empyrean you need war for red which is hard to find.

Is it really hard to find? o.O

Also it's not WANTING to play solo I believe, but the option to do it solo if need be. I know a few people who soloed in WoE when they only had an hour or so to play. That's not enough time to put together groups.

Yes WoE was always better with a party, where you got pouches in addition to singles. Some people just like the option to solo when low on time.

[scaevola]

Your logic amazes me... You want to play solo in an MMO...

Sometimes, yes.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Not really because with empyrean you need war for red which is hard to find..

I think you're confusing red with blue.

[Zagen]

I think you're confusing red with blue.
1) Red was for better odds at getting the KI to spawn the NM that drops the emp item.
2) Blue doesn't help with Emp items...

[Babekeke]

Not really because with empyrean you need war for red which is hard to find

Really no.

I levelled war 38-90 purely for skilling weapons so I could leech some other jobs for maat's cap. While skilling these weapons, I made sure to get at least high enough for all war red procs. Took me about 3 days to skill and a day to exp, and I'm not one of these 16 hours-a-day people. Everyone in my LS has war90 and almost everyone I meet. Almost none of the war that I meet are missing any red procs either.

[Sparthos]

The WoE weapon is nice if you juggle multiple classes and do not care to grind up Emps from 75->90 repeatedly.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

1) Red was for better odds at getting the KI to spawn the NM that drops the emp item.
2) Blue doesn't help with Emp items...

I meant that getting all the red weapon skills on WAR is ridiculously easy, while skilling everything up to get all possible blues isn't.

[Zagen]

I meant that getting all the red weapon skills on WAR is ridiculously easy, while skilling everything up to get all possible blues isn't.
Oh I see... ya no way in hell I would have gotten that from what you first posted also people are dumb if they're worried about Blue WS on WAR... MNK + WHM why bother with any other time than blunt...

[Zatias]

Oh I see... ya no way in hell I would have gotten that from what you first posted also people are dumb if they're worried about Blue WS on WAR... MNK + WHM why bother with any other time than blunt...
Why all the hostile jackassery? I don't see anyone attacking you.

[Zagen]

Why all the hostile jackassery? I don't see anyone attacking you.
It has nothing to do with feeling attacked but because working on Blue !! for WAR is a bad argument. When going after Blue !! slashing time requires Axe, Great Axe, Sword, Scythe, Katana, and Great Katana. Dunno about you but requiring 4 jobs for Blue !! when you could aim for Blunt time which requires 2 jobs just seems like bad logic to me.

Edit: I'm not saying WAR shouldn't have GA/Axe leveled and Quest WSs done I'm just saying that aiming for a non blunt Blue !! proc time is just stupid when you consider the jobs required to do it.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

MNK + WHM why bother with any other time than blunt...

To do it more than once, or to do it at times that the competition camping the spawn point can't or won't.

[Zagen]

To do it more than once, or to do it at times that the competition camping the spawn point can't or won't.
But Blue !! has nothing to do with Emp to begin with which makes the argument meaningless.

[Zatias]

Yeah but the person you were attacking didn't say anything about Blue proc WAR being good. He said that it was harder to get than a full Red proc WAR, quoting someone who said "red proc war is hard to find". Red proc war is easy to find, which is why he thought the quoted person was confusing red with blue.

Also your very first post in this thread was semi-aggressive, lol... I just don't see why.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

But Blue !! has nothing to do with Emp to begin with which makes the argument meaningless.

I was answering your question.

[Zagen]

Yeah but the person you were attacking didn't say anything about Blue proc WAR being good. He said that it was harder to get than a full Red proc WAR, quoting someone who said "red proc war is hard to find". Red proc war is easy to find, which is why he thought the quoted person was confusing red with blue.

Also your very first post in this thread was semi-aggressive, lol... I just don't see why.

I was answering your question.
And I'll say it again Blue !! has nothing to do with Emp weapon items which makes it an invalid argument to make when discussing the difficulty between WoE and Emp weapons... I merely pointed out going after slashing time is dumb when the topic's concern is being able to do stuff solo with a reward.

Also background on my first post no one outside of JP groups or 1 SMN/BST group was doing WoE. All of the time I went in to solo cuz I was bored or wanted to test stuff I was the only person in the zone. In other words the changes made increased popularity based on the fact people were shouting to do runs that weren't #5. But I guess if you wanna take my comment about people actually shouting for WoE now as aggressive go right ahead.

[Zatias]

There. A nice clean post that's easy to understand, that wasn't so hard was it? ^^;

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

/shrug


In other words the changes made increased popularity based on the fact people were shouting to do runs that weren't #5. But I guess if you wanna take my comment about people actually shouting for WoE now as aggressive go right ahead.

What changes? The only changes I can think of are the ones in aggro/linking.

I believe this thread is supposed to be about the forthcoming changes, the ones implemented on the test server but not in the production servers. And if you feel that those are increasing demand for WoE, then it would be from people in a rush to finish up their weapons before the changes are implemented, i.e. they feel the changes will be making things worse than they are now.

[esoR]

It has nothing to do with feeling attacked but because working on Blue !! for WAR is a bad argument. When going after Blue !! slashing time requires Axe, Great Axe, Sword, Scythe, Katana, and Great Katana. Dunno about you but requiring 4 jobs for Blue !! when you could aim for Blunt time which requires 2 jobs just seems like bad logic to me.


5. war pld drk sam nin. war doesnt get swift blade.

[Zagen]

5. war pld drk sam nin. war doesnt get swift blade.
You are right. Though I had thought WAR could cover both Scythe and GS WSs which I just checked and was mistaken.

[Ank]

Your logic amazes me... You want to play solo in an MMO...

There are a lot of things one does solo, but I spose some people even need help with the early morning lemon squeeze so I suppose that'd be a difficult concept to get behind.

[svengalis]

Really no.

I levelled war 38-90 purely for skilling weapons so I could leech some other jobs for maat's cap. While skilling these weapons, I made sure to get at least high enough for all war red procs. Took me about 3 days to skill and a day to exp, and I'm not one of these 16 hours-a-day people. Everyone in my LS has war90 and almost everyone I meet. Almost none of the war that I meet are missing any red procs either.

So what your saying is it is easy to find a war to help you farm/kill a notorious monster/s 100+ times. Maybe I should come to your server.

[Zatias]

Not the same WAR.

There's always people looking for free +2s. Shout for one XP

[Zagen]

There are a lot of things one does solo, but I spose some people even need help with the early morning lemon squeeze so I suppose that'd be a difficult concept to get behind.
You take your morning piss inside of a MMO?

[Ank]

I hope you're being intentionally obtuse.


As far as woe vs empy. I don't know, but I duo'd probably 50-70% of kannagi with a nin and he had a pretty damn high rate of red procs.

[Zagen]

I hope you're being intentionally obtuse.


As far as woe vs empy. I don't know, but I duo'd probably 50-70% of kannagi with a nin and he had a pretty damn high rate of red procs.
Actually I was pointing out the flaw in your comment. I made a comment about someone's logic in wanting to do an event in a MMO you know a genre designed to be multiplayer game not a "solo" designed.

Both NIN and WAR have a lot of red procs, PLD also has quite a few. Though at 95 WAR will be able to do all but 2 red ws if I'm not mistaken.

[Ank]

And I'm telling you that just because people exist doesn't mean you have to interact with them. You're being obtuse by being unable to apply critical thinking.

[Zagen]

And I'm telling you that just because people exist doesn't mean you have to interact with them. You're being obtuse by being unable to apply critical thinking.
People who have issues with other people stay inside their homes away from those other people they don't want to interact with or isolate themselves in similar fashion. A relative comparison would be play a single player game instead of a MMO... I'm sorry you don't play well with others but when you play a game that is designed around that premise you better expect to need to play with others.

[Ank]

I play with others all the time. But they don't have to help with menial or easy tasks. Who'da thunk? Just because a game is multiplayer doesn't mean you have to do everything with everyone. Otherwise even duoing crap doesn't really fit the definition does it? Do we do everything in 18 man alliances? Well maybe you do.

That's a silly argument that silly people inevitably bring up whenever they hear an inkling of silly soloing in their silly "MMO".

[Alhanelem]

As far as I can tell, nobody's getting coins from lesser mobs in WoE on the Test Server. I'm not sure if this was mentioned earlier, but it was stated by SE on this forum that random drops from regular monsters were being removed. I think the intent was to get people to actually cooperate and complete the battles.

I haven't decided if I like the idea or not, but the reason people went this way and not teamed up was because they modeled it after campaign, which was a pretty easy and causal event, and then made it really hard. They had to rework the treasure system and tone down the difficulty to make that any possibility of happening.

[Zagen]

I play with others all the time. But they don't have to help with menial or easy tasks. Who'da thunk? Just because a game is multiplayer doesn't mean you have to do everything with everyone. Otherwise even duoing crap doesn't really fit the definition does it? Do we do everything in 18 man alliances? Well maybe you do.

That's a silly argument that silly people inevitably bring up whenever they hear an inkling of silly soloing in their silly "MMO".
Seriously? 2 =/= solo however 2 = multiple, thus fitting the multi part of the name... Anyways I'm done you're clearly just trolling.

[xbobx]

Seems they destroyed WOE and destroyed casual players from ever getting the new Weaponskills, good job SE.

I saw the fake emps as something casual players could work towards piece by piece, they seem to make that even harder. Add to the fact that some of these weaponskills are a must for some jobs, without them your job is next to useless, with them they actually can hold their own.

SE, that is not called game balance. But yep, make sure Jug pets don't zone because that would upset game balance.

[Khiinroye]

Make a friend or two and do #2. You overestimate how hard that one is to win.

[xbobx]

Issue comes down to, take you what an hour or so to complete? For maybe a 5% chance at the coin you need? So what need to do about 300 or more runs for your 30 coins?

That isn't balanced compared to the full emp weapons, it may actually be more time consuming and harder.

[Nynja]

As far as I know, and I dont know since I'd rather play with my chars instead of a fake rendition...if you do complete a WoE chamber, everyone gets their own chest, but no one knows since no ones completed any chambers on the test server.

[xbobx]

Well maybe they will relook at this change, seems overall it is not popular and could cause Woe to go back to the no one doing it again.

[Sparthos]

We dont know what the new fluxes will reward.

The success or failure of the revamped event lay on how that's handled. Someone has already found a temp item primeval brew within a run of Antlions so SE could have easily gimped the event to the point where you could simply just bash trash mobs till you get a brew then proceed to cakewalk the chamber.

This is of course the worst case scenario and one would hope the brews are kept to a 1% minimum but who knows. If anything valuable comes from the new chambers, WoE will popular simply because demand will be there - especially if those WoE+3 items can be bazaared.

If common win rewards are pouches, then the event has succeeded even with the loss of singular coins. We're jumping to conclusion with no idea what the new runs are composed of.

[scaevola]

Make a friend or two and do #2. You overestimate how hard that one is to win.

No one is overestimating the difficulty of early WoE chambers. I'm reasonably sure #3 could be completed solo by DNC if you had a two-hour time limit, and the limiting factors on #2 are effective sac-pulling and how well your WHM understands Misery/Cura II. But as was mentioned in the second post, an individual Morbid Molasses is still more difficult and less rewarding than pretty much any Visions/Scars Empyrean NM other than Bukhis, so if people are willing to sacrifice time to make you a weapon, going after a WoE weapon rather than an Empyrean pretty much makes you a bad friend.

I mean, it would have been one thing if soloing had been killed off by actually making WoE more difficult or rewarding for cooperation, but SE has pretty much written that off by adding auto-reraise and bonus chests based on individual rather than relative performance. It's bizarre. It's like the changes were perfectly calibrated to accommodate both groups interested in winning and finishing a weapon in a week and soloers interested in a shot at a coin with the hope of maybe completing a toy six months from now, and then the second style of play was basically eliminated as an afterthought.

[Sparthos]

No one is overestimating the difficulty of early WoE chambers. I'm reasonably sure #3 could be completed solo by DNC if you had a two-hour time limit.

Stop trying to solo and get people to clear the chambers with? Im sure interest will peak after the update and that will be the time to strike.

[scaevola]

Stop trying to solo and get people to clear the chambers with? Im sure interest will peak after the update and that will be the time to strike.

The time invested in getting a group together to clear what is actually non-trivial content* could be better invested in shouting for Carabosse kills, where your random pawns will actually get +2 items for their trouble.



*I was running #2 just the other evening with a group of 4 (+1 sac puller) that included an Ukon and a Masamune. We'd still finish in 35 minutes. The problem is that people die, random mobs sit around and need to be killed because of WoEs dumb pathing, the sac puller almost always dies, and waiting for weakness to wear off can put the crunch on a group even if there isn't really a risk of wiping.

[xbobx]

How many coins did everyone end up with? If one only, then it very well could take 300+ runs to get enough coins. Is that fair to say? Did everyone get a coin or did some get none.

[Sparthos]

The time invested in getting a group together to clear what is actually non-trivial content* could be better invested in shouting for Carabosse kills, where your random pawns will actually get +2 items for their trouble.



*I was running #2 just the other evening with a group of 4 (+1 sac puller) that included an Ukon and a Masamune. We'd still finish in 35 minutes. The problem is that people die, random mobs sit around and need to be killed because of WoEs dumb pathing, the sac puller almost always dies, and waiting for weakness to wear off can put the crunch on a group even if there isn't really a risk of wiping.

I dont get your point.

Pre-patch, solo coin drops were rare and short of getting lucky with pouches you'd always take longer to finish than an Emp.

Post-patch, you'll have another 5 levels on mobs and we have unknowns with regards to the new droprates on pouches in cleared chambers, no idea on difficulty of the new chambers or with regard to new treasure that may lure individuals with no interest in WoE+3s to assist in clearing of chambers.

What exactly are you looking for? Pouch rates in flux7 right now range from 0-5 pouches for a win, solo coin rates are abysmal and Emps are easier to get to 85. If you feel that Carabosse is faster - do it. When the patch rolls around, the entire WoE dynamic will have to be re-evaluated.

[scaevola]

What exactly are you looking for?

I'm looking for the opportunity to continue pursuing an avenue of character advancement on my own schedule that is currently available and viable, if not great. The reasons why it's so important for me to stick to my own schedule are the usual run of work, family, other hobbies, etc. that I can only assume would bore the living hell out of you, but rest assured that if I thought FFXI were important enough to be worth accommodating others' schedules for, I'd have an Empyrean. Pretty much everybody would. Hell, with the amount of time I've spent in flux #3, I'd probably have two.

Coins could still drop from monsters at the agonizingly low rate they currently do and the change of dynamics to WoE that SE seems to want would still occur, what with the abolition of rankings, more reliable pouches, auto-reraise, and (hopefully!) improved aggroing/pathing mechanics.

[Sparthos]

I'm looking for the opportunity to continue pursuing an avenue of character advancement on my own schedule that is currently available and viable, if not great. The reasons why it's so important for me to stick to my own schedule are the usual run of work, family, other hobbies, etc. that I can only assume would bore the living hell out of you, but rest assured that if I thought FFXI were important enough to be worth accommodating others' schedules for, I'd have an Empyrean. Pretty much everybody would. Hell, with the amount of time I've spent in flux #3, I'd probably have two.

Coins could still drop from monsters at the agonizingly low rate they currently do and the change of dynamics to WoE that SE seems to want would still occur, what with the abolition of rankings, more reliable pouches, auto-reraise, and (hopefully!) improved aggroing/pathing mechanics.

Like I said before: perhaps you should choose an Empyrean instead if you want to manage time more efficiently.

SE is shaping WoE to be an area where people team up and win chambers to collect loot in the end. Such a system cannot function when you simply want to solo coins in a selfish manner because the disputes over single drops have the potential to destroy the event before any of the positives get a chance to stick.

For lack of a better term, we're looking at Campaign II here. Single coins had to be removed because otherwise you'd have soloists holding up the chamber and denying groups the ability to enter.

[xbobx]

And campaign you get something if you don't win, you get a chunk of exp. If you lose in Woe you get nothing for your efforts.

Coins dropping before at least gave you something if you did not succeed, now it just wastes your time. A system like you are talking about works if many people are willing to do, people won't be over time and when that happens, it will completely die. Just like before. Remember when it first came out there were 0 rewards if you didn't win just like it is going to be. Remember how many people did Woe before? Like no one. You were lucky to see 3 people in that whole zone.

[katz]

The proposed change to WOE was well discussed a bit back. Sadly only the people who did the event as a linkshell event were heard. The soloists got told to shut up and you basically shouldnt be doing WOE solo. Its sad to think Dynamis was changed to allow smaller groups then for WOE to be reversed to not allow them.

[scaevola]

Like I said before: perhaps you should choose an Empyrean instead if you want to manage time more efficiently.


I do use my time efficiently. That efficiency is reflected in the myriad, shifting tasks that demand my attention on a daily basis. FFXI gets some of the time left over. If you don't think that's the best way to go about living one's life on a busy schedule, by all means reveal yourself.

This is not to say I have no time to play, mind you; some days I play quite a lot. Maybe even 3 or 4 hours! I cannot, however, predict when those days will be, and I would naturally feel guilty about subjecting others (some of whom I might actually even like!) to such unreliability. So I don't, I'm satisfied with the situation, and my desire for an Empyrean weapon skill is not anywhere near great enough to get me to change it. If this change goes live I'll finish up the weapon I'm currently working on beforehand (23/30, baby) and resume worrying about pixels and polygons as much as I usually do, which is to say not very much.

That said, since May's addition of KIs to gold chests I've really started to run out of things to work towards, so I confess the loss of this as a realistic solo goal stings a bit more right now than it will a month after I quit FFXI for lack of things to do.

If I could divine some sort of reason for this change, I'd be more than willing to accept it with a shrug and move on. It is, however, as puzzling as it is disappointing, so I didn't consider it a complete waste of time to make a thread to 1) ask for confirmation, and 2) perhaps fish for a CM comment regarding the rationale. Is that fair?

[katz]

Lols at thinking 3-4 hrs is hard core gaming, it takes some linkshells that long to get organised. This is why sometimes you go solo. I like both, helping linkshells towards their goals when i have time, and going solo when i have time and they do not. Trouble is SE is limiting what we can achieve as solo people while making it easier for group events to last 14+ hours.......

[katz]

Like I said before: perhaps you should choose an Empyrean instead if you want to manage time more efficiently.

SE is shaping WoE to be an area where people team up and win chambers to collect loot in the end. Such a system cannot function when you simply want to solo coins in a selfish manner because the disputes over single drops have the potential to destroy the event before any of the positives get a chance to stick.

For lack of a better term, we're looking at Campaign II here. Single coins had to be removed because otherwise you'd have soloists holding up the chamber and denying groups the ability to enter.

Oh wow a group cant wait for a 30 min event to finish.....

[xbobx]

In a dying game, which it is, SE had the right idea to start and change things to focus on smaller groups. they made many changes and they were great. then Bam, woe changes and voidwatch and we back to the beginning again.

Mood swings at SE?

[svengalis]

I hope you're being intentionally obtuse.


As far as woe vs empy. I don't know, but I duo'd probably 50-70% of kannagi with a nin and he had a pretty damn high rate of red procs.

There's only 3 ninja can't do but there was so many times I couldn't do those 3 while solo farming briareus ki!

[Zagen]

In a dying game, which it is, SE had the right idea to start and change things to focus on smaller groups. they made many changes and they were great. then Bam, woe changes and voidwatch and we back to the beginning again.

Mood swings at SE?
How is WoE changing from being small man friendly?

Everything that was proposed was party size (4-6 people) friendly. The only nerf is to the soloers because most of the "soloers" would wait for a group to show up and they'd enter the same zone and focus on getting max points so they placed in the top 5 even though without the group that went in they would have gotten 1-2 coins if that. Some "soloers" who jumped in on a run they weren't needed/wanted also would lot everything not just 1 coin which is the standard for groups going in as a group.

[scaevola]

How is WoE changing from being small man friendly?

Everything that was proposed was party size (4-6 people) friendly. The only nerf is to the soloers because most of the "soloers" would wait for a group to show up and they'd enter the same zone and focus on getting max points so they placed in the top 5 even though without the group that went in they would have gotten 1-2 coins if that. Some "soloers" who jumped in on a run they weren't needed/wanted also would lot everything not just 1 coin which is the standard for groups going in as a group.


Assuming for the sake of argument that you're correct, the rest of the proposed changes deal with this whether random coin drops are available or not; the group and the soloer are no longer in competition to place, so they're free to work together or completely ignore each other. Soloer gets his clear and his chest, group gets some extra damage they wouldn't have had otherwise. The presence or absence of coins doesn't change this.

The irony of removing coin drops to get rid of "leeches" is that it will only encourage people to scout out other peoples' group runs even harder, because not only will it be the only way to get coins on something resembling your own schedule (why waste your time making a run of your own when you can just /sea who's in WoE and horn in on somebody else's when they happen to be there?) but auto-reraise + removal of placing = just let them do the meaningful work while you stay out of the way and beat on some random insignificant mob to qualify.

[Zagen]

Assuming for the sake of argument that you're correct, the rest of the proposed changes deal with this whether random coin drops are available or not; the group and the soloer are no longer in competition to place, so they're free to work together or completely ignore each other. Soloer gets his clear and his chest, group gets some extra damage they wouldn't have had otherwise. The presence or absence of coins doesn't change this.

The irony of removing coin drops to get rid of "leeches" is that it will only encourage people to scout out other peoples' group runs even harder, because not only will it be the only way to get coins on something resembling your own schedule (why waste your time making a run of your own when you can just /sea who's in WoE and horn in on somebody else's when they happen to be there?) but auto-reraise + removal of placing = just let them do the meaningful work while you stay out of the way and beat on some random insignificant mob to qualify.

You're assuming killing 1 mob or dicking around with it til the group wins is going to be enough to qualify.

[scaevola]

Yes, I am. If I'm wrong, the soloers will do enough to qualify.

You're being intentionally obtuse again.

[Zagen]

Yes, I am. If I'm wrong, the soloers will do enough to qualify.

You're being intentionally obtuse again.
And if that requires doing enough to help the group that is organized then it made the change work for the better, if it doesn't then it didn't help. The difference is I'm not assuming one way or the other not being obtuse.

[scaevola]

I think the ideal situation is a well-organized group of like 5 dudes that attract 10 more NIN/DNCs and DNC/NINs capable of hitting things and not dying. If that happens, this update will be a resounding success!

I'm not that optimistic!

[Sparthos]

I do use my time efficiently. That efficiency is reflected in the myriad, shifting tasks that demand my attention on a daily basis. FFXI gets some of the time left over. If you don't think that's the best way to go about living one's life on a busy schedule, by all means reveal yourself.

Spare us all the RL card, it scores you no points here.


This is not to say I have no time to play, mind you; some days I play quite a lot. Maybe even 3 or 4 hours! I cannot, however, predict when those days will be, and I would naturally feel guilty about subjecting others (some of whom I might actually even like!) to such unreliability. So I don't, I'm satisfied with the situation, and my desire for an Empyrean weapon skill is not anywhere near great enough to get me to change it. If this change goes live I'll finish up the weapon I'm currently working on beforehand (23/30, baby) and resume worrying about pixels and polygons as much as I usually do, which is to say not very much.

This is an online multiplayer game and thus if you know time is an issue for you, perhaps scuttling 1-2 Carabosse per day until you finish is the best course of action however as it stands, WoE is currently a failure of an event. Naturally, SE is attempting to address that with this oncoming patch.

The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few.

Before jumping to the conclusion that the event is ruined for you, at least acknowledge the fact that popularity may surge and this event could become similar to Campaign where people team up to clear chambers due to the individual loot system making everyone who walks out a winner.


That said, since May's addition of KIs to gold chests I've really started to run out of things to work towards, so I confess the loss of this as a realistic solo goal stings a bit more right now than it will a month after I quit FFXI for lack of things to do.

If I could divine some sort of reason for this change, I'd be more than willing to accept it with a shrug and move on. It is, however, as puzzling as it is disappointing, so I didn't consider it a complete waste of time to make a thread to 1) ask for confirmation, and 2) perhaps fish for a CM comment regarding the rationale. Is that fair?

I dont see how you can't analyze why this change is being made.

WoE failed and the only people who use the event are soloists and linkshells who are bored with XI and want something other than Abyssea to do. As it stands, the community teamwork ideal SE wanted pushed in this event is non-existent.

The "new" WoE encourages teamups and removes many of the issues that would make people wary of joining a PUG. You have instant RR, personal chests upon winning and the removal of single drops eliminates squabbling among the group or soloists holding up the chamber for their own selfish gains. The idea is to team up with people (this is an online multiplayer game afterall) and accomplish the challenges as they come.

Perfect for the low time investment individual you profess yourself to be.

Now we've established that, the last component is demand. If SE adds enough items to keep people going, the event will maintain itself as people /sh, group up and run strats for this Campaign 2.0. Failure means everyone loses out so much like Besieged, leaders will rise and guide the newbies on the best path to victory. Who knows - it could turn out to be something worth doing and an event that unifies the community rather than what we've had in Abyssea.

The event could go from a barren wasteland where people solo coins ad infinitum to a community oriented, low risk, high reward arena where casuals rule and the iron grip of HNM shells is broken. Is this not what the casual community wanted?

[scaevola]

Spare us all the RL card, it scores you no points here.

Well, what do you want me to say? If you're hell-bent on telling me to start groups, I can only assume you're fishing for an explanation of why I haven't. I'd be happy to just agree that starting groups is a much faster if less flexible way to get this done, I'm aware of that, and if it were a viable way for me to have done this, I wouldn't be soloing coins.


This is an online multiplayer game and thus if you know time is an issue for you, perhaps scuttling 1-2 Carabosse per day until you finish is the best course of action however as it stands, WoE is currently a failure of an event. Naturally, SE is attempting to address that with this oncoming patch.

The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few.

Absolutely. Coins dropping from random mobs don't hinder anyone under the new system any more than they did under the old one; I was to understand the complaints were based on soloers ranking over groups and taking brown-casket spoils. Both of those are gone now. Problem solved, right?


Before jumping to the conclusion that the event is ruined for you, at least acknowledge the fact that popularity may surge and this event could become similar to Campaign where people team up to clear chambers due to the individual loot system making everyone who walks out a winner.



I dont see how you can't analyze why this change is being made.

WoE failed and the only people who use the event are soloists and linkshells who are bored with XI and want something other than Abyssea to do. As it stands, the community teamwork ideal SE wanted pushed in this event is non-existent.

The "new" WoE encourages teamups and removes many of the issues that would make people wary of joining a PUG. You have instant RR, personal chests upon winning and the removal of single drops eliminates squabbling among the group or soloists holding up the chamber for their own selfish gains. The idea is to team up with people (this is an online multiplayer game afterall) and accomplish the challenges as they come.

Perfect for the low time investment individual you profess yourself to be.

Now we've established that, the last component is demand. If SE adds enough items to keep people going, the event will maintain itself as people /sh, group up and run strats for this Campaign 2.0. Failure means everyone loses out so much like Besieged, leaders will rise and guide the newbies on the best path to victory. Who knows - it could turn out to be something worth doing and an event that unifies the community rather than what we've had in Abyssea.

The event could go from a barren wasteland where people solo coins ad infinitum to a community oriented, low risk, high reward arena where casuals rule and the iron grip of HNM shells is broken. Is this not what the casual community wanted?

If all happens as you say, then there's still no reason to eliminate random coin drops.

EDIT: wait, "squabbling among the group"? That's what this is about? You want to make WoE less rewarding for everyone because people cry about loot?

[Zumi]

To the people complaining about how they can't solo for coins anymore. Technically you still can. All you got to do is solo mobs hope a brew drops then finish the zone with the brew get coins.

[Sparthos]

If the reward chests are worth the time investment, why ruin it with coin drops that individuals will squabble over? Yes, people in PUGs are so dimwitted that they'll plunge the whole run into the ground over some single drops so SE has simply stupid-proofed the event.

Further, since the chambers are timed why would you want to create a situation where soloers go in and start the timer effectively locking the chamber down for an hour? Sounds like a great way to spite a group and waste peoples time.

This way, SE ensures that you'll only enter a run when you have sufficient individuals to attempt clearing the chamber.

[svengalis]

In a dying game, which it is, SE had the right idea to start and change things to focus on smaller groups. they made many changes and they were great. then Bam, woe changes and voidwatch and we back to the beginning again.

Mood swings at SE?

Its because of all the people complaining about content not being hard enough! We need stop those people from posting!

[Sparthos]

It's called balance and if SE wants to keep the game going, they need group oriented events and things for lowman.

If I wanted all lowman, id go play FFXII where everything can be 3manned.

[svengalis]

How is WoE changing from being small man friendly?

Everything that was proposed was party size (4-6 people) friendly. The only nerf is to the soloers because most of the "soloers" would wait for a group to show up and they'd enter the same zone and focus on getting max points so they placed in the top 5 even though without the group that went in they would have gotten 1-2 coins if that. Some "soloers" who jumped in on a run they weren't needed/wanted also would lot everything not just 1 coin which is the standard for groups going in as a group.

I have a friend who always solos conflux #4or5 can't remember which one (anticans) lesser mobs and hates when other people show up! Now with this new update he wont be able to do that.

[scaevola]

If the reward chests are worth the time investment, why ruin it with coin drops that individuals will squabble over? Yes, people in PUGs are so dimwitted that they'll plunge the whole run into the ground over some single drops so SE has simply stupid-proofed the event.

haha what


Further, since the chambers are timed why would you want to create a situation where soloers go in and start the timer effectively locking the chamber down for an hour? Sounds like a great way to spite a group and waste peoples time.

Groups and soloers do different fluxes. No soloer is going to bother with 2 or 7, and 3 is not particularly friendly to sac-pulling. If a soloer sees a group in a group-friendly flux, the new system strongly encourages him to go to that flux, and the group in there is no poorer for his presence. If nobody's there, he'd go to 3.

Also, what sad, scary world do you live in where soloers routinely spite groups rather than, I don't know, work towards actually getting stuff?


This way, SE ensures that you'll only enter a run when you have sufficient individuals to attempt clearing the chamber.

SE ensures people will try to clear runs whenever possible by making doing so individually rewarding enough to always be better than screwing around with antlions. It's like that now and will be vastly more so post-update. They don't need to remove coin drops to make that happen.

[svengalis]

If the reward chests are worth the time investment, why ruin it with coin drops that individuals will squabble over? Yes, people in PUGs are so dimwitted that they'll plunge the whole run into the ground over some single drops so SE has simply stupid-proofed the event.

Further, since the chambers are timed why would you want to create a situation where soloers go in and start the timer effectively locking the chamber down for an hour? Sounds like a great way to spite a group and waste peoples time.

This way, SE ensures that you'll only enter a run when you have sufficient individuals to attempt clearing the chamber.

Makes a lot of sense of why they took away the random coin drops from lesser mobs, I just wish SE would explain this to us!

[Sparthos]

haha what

You've never been in a group acting petty over loot? I envy you.



Groups and soloers do different fluxes. No soloer is going to bother with 2 or 7, and 3 is not particularly friendly to sac-pulling. If a soloer sees a group in a group-friendly flux, the new system strongly encourages him to go to that flux, and the group in there is no poorer for his presence. If nobody's there, he'd go to 3.

You're merely limiting yourself to the current conditions of WoE. Some servers don't have access to the upper fluxes meaning they'd need wins to unlock and that means the soloers would be merely a roadblock.

Further, the endloot could be valuable enough (Devious Dice which upgrade +2 WoEs to +3s are almost certainly going to be WoE loot and are sellable like currency) that groups desire wins to sell loot and that again means soloers would be acting as a roadblock. Why can't we enter flux 1? Oh because a soloer is hogging crabs with his dualbox sac.

Hurray! -_-


Also, what sad, scary world do you live in where soloers routinely spite groups rather than, I don't know, work towards actually getting stuff?

It happens now so what would lead you to believe it'd change? The loot was removed to force party play and eliminate any possibility someone goes jackass and tries to solo a chamber.