Samurai Archers

[Delvish]

Hey Dev team, just tossing this back up on the radar. I know SAM/RNG is a largely overlooked subjob and yes compared to things like Tachi: Fudo it pales in comparison. However I never really liked cutting cookies and as such I prefer straying from the norm and excelling at it. I've had a lot of hope for SAM/RNG's return due to additions like Refulgent Arrow (much appreciated substitute to Sidewinder) and SAM's ungodly Unkai Kote. That said, I still find myself cursed in many regards.



C+ Skill in Archery even when fully merited pains me.
No weapon skills unless /RNG, and even then a very poor selection (1 blue !!).
No magian trials, making RNG the ONLY bow user.
Speaking of, Beursault and Murti bows are the only available SAM bows post 75 (sans relic).
SAM main supporting Job Abilities.


Those are my primary complaints. I'm not saying add anything new that is exclusive to SAM archery, just allow us a little bit of flexibility on the subject.

Here are some of my proposed adjustments:



Up archery proficiency. B- would be a significant improvement but I wouldn't complain with B either. While you are at it you can up Polearm to B to keep that proficiency > Archery if you like, or equal to is fine.
Honestly, I'm fine with SAM not having native archery WS. Not a bad mechanic. However I would like AT LEAST 2-3 of the RNG exclusive archery WS to be expanded to SAM when subbed, if only for blue !!.
Weapon selection is terrible. I can pick and choose my Great Katana, but with bow I can only choose two valid options and of them, there really is only one option. There are two ways to expand upon this.

Open up Magian bows to SAM, particularly the elemental oriented ones (you can keep the Empyrean ones if you like. RNG exclusive there is understandable) but at least something for the rest of us and/or our own SAM oriented line of Bow.
Release another SAM primary bow (I liked my old one) or expand our selections at least a little bit.


Finally, I would greatly appreciate abilities like Konzen-Ittai, Hasso/Seigan, and Zanshin to include archery in some way if possible.

Little more range on Konzen-Ittai maybe?
Increased RATT/RACC for Hasso/Seigan respectively?
Chance for increased damage based upon Zanshin attack rate? (a stretch, but with the recent Zanshin update it's worth a shot)




Please tell me I'm not the only one who enjoyed the early days of SAM/RNG?

[Dirtyfinger]

I don't personally care for the archery side of Samurai, but I do agree that it does need an update as there are others who do enjoy that aspect.

[Asraa]

Bravo! A decent bump in archery skill would make SAM more versatile. As it currently stands, why would I throw gil away with ranged attacks if they are going to miss? Rangers get A skill in marks and arch why cant SAM or other jobs have two A skilled weapons as well?

[hiko]

Bravo! A decent bump in archery skill would make SAM more versatile. As it currently stands, why would I throw gil away with ranged attacks if they are going to miss? Rangers get A skill in marks and arch why cant SAM or other jobs have two A skilled weapons as well?

WAR GA A+; Axe A-
DRK Scythe A+, GS A-
PLD Sword A+, club A-, staff A-
rng is not the only job with multiple A rank in combat skill

for sam being efficient with bow they need higher skill, native ranged WS, acces to Arching arrow in aby

[Taint2]

I've always wanted yoichi for my SAM. Something about a SAM with a Bow is really badass. Ofcourse they could add SAM to Gandiva and give us the crit WS we deserve!

[Asraa]

I want yoichi for my SAM as well, but with such low skill in archery im not sure if this is a wise choice. Also finding ammo and farming the materials to craft ammo can be a pain.

[Taint2]

I want yoichi for my SAM as well, but with such low skill in archery im not sure if this is a wise choice. Also finding ammo and farming the materials to craft ammo can be a pain.


WSs have such a huge ACC bonus the low skill isn't that big of a deal. Buffed Namas spam was owner at 75, with the relic damage boost I bet its still pretty potent. Quint Spear + SAM + Namas would be very fun to play with.

[Asraa]

My dream set up would SAM mythic occ. att. 2-3 times and yoichinoyumi.

[Jar]

WSs have such a huge ACC bonus the low skill isn't that big of a deal. Buffed Namas spam was owner at 75, with the relic damage boost I bet its still pretty potent. Quint Spear + SAM + Namas would be very fun to play with.

think that was aimed at sidewinder <.< because i only know like 1 person with Namas so basing anything off that is silly...

[Taint2]

think that was aimed at sidewinder <.< because i only know like 1 person with Namas so basing anything off that is silly...

"I want yoichi for my SAM as well, but with such low skill in archery im not sure if this is a wise choice. Also finding ammo and farming the materials to craft ammo can be a pain. "

[Hyden]

I wouldn't mind seeing some adjustments to SAM's archery/ranged attack skills either.

It's a little ridiculous that SAM can use a relic weapon it only has C+ skill in. Seriously, SAM has higher skill in polearm and no access to the relic. It's pretty silly to not at least make archery B- (or higher!).

SE is obviously trying to throw SAM archers a bone w/ the Unkai Kote, but one piece of gear doesn't really cut it.

I really like the OP's suggestions for additions to Hasso/Siegan. I don't think mutually exclusive benefits to ranged attacks would be too much ask for really.

Overwhelm: Is there any good reason this doesn't work on ranged WSs? "Grants a damage bonus to weapons skill performed face-to-face with an enemy" seems like it should.

Velocity Shot: they could at least give us access to Velocity Shot when /RNG. I don't use /RNG often with Yoichi, but I think giving us Velocity Shot as a SAM JA might not really fit.

And while I'm talking about Yoichi, the new TP boost SAM JA is kinda a kick-in-the-nuts to relic users. I know they said it'd at least save us a hit towards next WS, but all it's really doing is boosting Masamune again. Extending aftermath for Amano/Yoichi just isn't quite as cool :/

[Delvish]

Good to see I am not alone in this regard.

Yoichi-bow has always been sort of a dream of mine that I would probably take up again once I get back into Dynamis.

I would however really like to emphasise the magian bows again. Gandiva would be awesome of course, as would its retarded cousin for Jishnu's Radiance but understandable if that is out of the question. I'm still quite happy with Refulgent Arrow. Personally regarding reasonable bows, the fire based Bateleur or any of the Sparrowhawks would be much more up a Sam's alley. You'd see non-/rangers getting these trials too, if it meant extra STp or 9 more STR.

The problem with Sparrowhawk trials is again, they would be incompletable due to a lack of necessary WS.

[Hyden]

You'd see non-/rangers getting these trials too, if it meant extra STp or 9 more STR.


I'm guessing this is the main reason why ToM bows aren't available to non-RNGs. But it's not like it'd be anymore overpowered than any other dual wield options. Unless dual wield jobs were allowed to use bows too i guess... Idk, i really don't see the hurt in putting SAM on ToM bows too.

[Yawaru]

Personally I've never played around much with /RNG but I completely agree they should expand on it. They obviously had it in mind when they put RNG on the relic bow but never really developed it. I highly doubt they'd put SAM on RNG trials because they'd necessarily be on Gandiva as well. Not that I wouldn't LOVE Jishnu's Radiance on SAM but I don't see them doing that. A SAM with it's TPing abilities would be able to spam it constantly and stack the skillchain bonus damage on double light SCs. Again, would love to do it, but I'm pretty sure SE would see that as overpowered.

As far as not having Archery WS native to SAM, it doesn't make sense. Just look at all the jobs with C+ or lower skill and imagine taking their WS for those weapons away. If you're even remotely proficient in a weapon you should be able to use it regardless of the sub. I think models like Dagger WSs are better, you get some of the WS but not all of them, and you're missing some of the important ones for weakness procs. SAM should have Flaming Arrow, Piercing Arrow, Sidewinder, Empyreal Arrow and Refulgent Arrow natively, that gives them 2 of the 4 blue procs so it doesn't take the place of RNG but is still able to use a bow. And it's not like /RNG would be useless, you'd still get all the useful traits and JA like Accuracy bonus, sharpshot and barrage. Oh and scavenge, cause scavenge is cool right?

A bump in skill would be nice too but I think the weapon assortment is more of an issue. Plus it's not like being able to equip a bow with +9 STR would make or break the game, since people still need White Tathlum for their TP build which is more important than extra strength.

[Vandheer]

I just wanted to pitch in to help this point of view get noticed to benefit all fellow Samurai out there. ^^ Ever since the level raise from 75 I've been very curious why sam/rng has become so limited, or even why samurai and their ability to use archery is so limited. Samurai had access to the Relic bow Yoichinoyumi but since then we haven't gotten much to turn towards using archery as a viable part of samurai. There isn't much I can add to this thread that has not already been said but I agree with the previous suggestions made by Delvish, Hyden, and Yawaru.

Come on SE stop teasing us with Unkai Kote and let us get more usage out of Archery and Ranger Sub. ;)

[DarkBass]

I Feel this is a viable request. With the game changing like it is now, sam with b- archery skill would be very appreciated along with having native archery ws selection. I'm still holding onto my insane amount or RACC gear just in case a new era of sam using bow(without Yoichinoyumi) is brought back.

[Delvish]

I Feel this is a viable request. With the game changing like it is now, sam with b- archery skill would be very appreciated along with having native archery ws selection. I'm still holding onto my insane amount or RACC gear just in case a new era of sam using bow(without Yoichinoyumi) is brought back.

Right there with you. I've got my /rng gear as good as it would've gotten, sans yoichibow and I've been working on keeping it up to date with recent gear additions (unkai kote, light belt, twilight gear). Racc+ was really high (90+) and I was still missing with capped and merited skill, so higher skill is quite necessary. Ontop of that though, our selection of RAtt gear has been sorely limited. That too should look into expansion.

[Vandheer]

I've got my /rng gear as good as it would've gotten, sans yoichibow and I've been working on keeping it up to date with recent gear additions

Heya, Delvish would you mind posting your gear setup in the thread? Sounds like you have a good grasp on it.

[Delvish]

Heya, Delvish would you mind posting your gear setup in the thread? Sounds like you have a good grasp on it.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/132241 is what I usually use. I haven't updated the grip but normally I use a rose grip with a stp magian GK for max tp per arrow, though Uther's grip is also valid. Haven't examined the new stuff too closely. The coselete has RAtt and Racc augment. I am open for input as you see fit too.

[Hyden]

SAM had some decent /shooting gear back at 75 but most of it was mini-expansion augmented gear. Only problem I had was deciding which augments to go with. TP vs WS, Racc vs Ratk vs Snapshot, etc. Zha'Go's Barbut and Buccaneer's Belt deserve a mention too. It would be nice to see SAM added to some of the upcoming RNG gear perhaps.

I think the only actual Racc/Ratk upgrades SAM has gotten since 75 are like Missile Boots, Unkai Kote +2 and Clearview Earring (maybe Terebellum Mantle too actually). Stuff like Libeccio Mantle and Impulse Belt woulda been really nice. :/

[Hayward]

I've always wondered why Samurai never got access to Archery Trials and mentioned in a past thread. It would seem only right that Samurai get to build a Bateleur or any on the other Magian Bows.

Your proposal has a lot of good things going for it, and I'm sure no Ranger would complain about SAM getting Archery skill raised to B-/B+. As for weapon skills, I'd probably leave some, like Sidewinder and Arching Arrow, as exclusive to Ranger--they are the experts, after all.

[Delvish]

I've always wondered why Samurai never got access to Archery Trials and mentioned in a past thread. It would seem only right that Samurai get to build a Bateleur or any on the other Magian Bows.

Your proposal has a lot of good things going for it, and I'm sure no Ranger would complain about SAM getting Archery skill raised to B-/B+. As for weapon skills, I'd probably leave some, like Sidewinder and Arching Arrow, as exclusive to Ranger--they are the experts, after all.
Well, we already have sidewinder which was our bread and butter /rng ws. Leaving some exclusive WS is expected, but at least 1 blue proccing WS would be greatly appreciated, expanding on our rather limited proccing role within abyssea.

[Vandheer]

Speaking of our limited proccing role in abyssea we can't forget that WAR or other jobs that /sam will be able to use one of the event Great Katanas along with some decent boosting in Great Katana skill to proc with Samurai weapon skills. Not to take everyone too off topic from the idea of Archery on Samurai but it is a bit of an issue regarding proccing and Samurai. That being said some Archery proccing weapon skills would be amazing.

Also thank you Delvish for sharing your armor setup with us all. I think it helps everyone in the thread along with SE get an idea of how much help Samurai needs in fixing Archery on Samurai.

[Delvish]

Also thank you Delvish for sharing your armor setup with us all. I think it helps everyone in the thread along with SE get an idea of how much help Samurai needs in fixing Archery on Samurai.

No problem. As you can see, with augments, RAcc is comparatively easy to obtain. However, RAtt is
half of that. In recent updates we have been getting more and more RAtt gear, so we just need to continue along this path. Refuge Arrow opened up a WS for us that we didn't have to rely on mass amounts of RAcc just to be able to hit (still missed half the time).


Another note about my gear set: I've been trying to stack up on STp to allow myself the greatest amount of tp per hit. In future updates once we reach 99 and we no longer receive STp bonuses through JT and merits, then I can begin work on trimming out a TP build like we had back at 75.

[Vandheer]

Another note about my gear set: I've been trying to stack up on STp to allow myself the greatest amount of tp per hit. In future updates once we reach 99 and we no longer receive STp bonuses through JT and merits, then I can begin work on trimming out a TP build like we had back at 75.

Do you have a link to that information Delvish, or anyone else reading this actually. Thats news to me so I'd love the link/links where SE announces their future plans like that. O.o

[Delvish]

Do you have a link to that information Delvish, or anyone else reading this actually. Thats news to me so I'd love the link/links where SE announces their future plans like that. O.o

Oh, that is all just speculation. We keep getting new gear and job adjustments too rapidly to make looking for the best of the best set a valid option. The key to proper wsing is ensuring just enough STp to reach 100% on X-hit build without going over and filling the rest with haste, DA, and now zanshin. I just assume the possibility of a new job trait or merit system so no real link.

[hiko]

SAM had some decent /shooting gear back at 75 but most of it was mini-expansion augmented gear. Only problem I had was deciding which augments to go with. TP vs WS, Racc vs Ratk vs Snapshot, etc. Zha'Go's Barbut and Buccaneer's Belt deserve a mention too. It would be nice to see SAM added to some of the upcoming RNG gear perhaps.

I think the only actual Racc/Ratk upgrades SAM has gotten since 75 are like Missile Boots, Unkai Kote +2 and Clearview Earring (maybe Terebellum Mantle too actually). Stuff like Libeccio Mantle and Impulse Belt woulda been really nice. :/

moondoe-mantle (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/10985/moondoe-mantle) nice mix of racc/ratt

[Hyden]

Yar! Picked one for of those up the other day ^^ Been nice for RNG during VW too (screw you Tiamat!)

[Delvish]

If you all follow the Dev comments, you probably noticed today the post about how they do business. I want to thank you all for making this thread and idea so potentially important in comparison to the many other threads within the SAM subforum.

[Hyden]

Got a lil bored and started looking at different jobs skill caps. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe SAM's archery is the lowest ranked of all jobs that can use a relic weapon. Even BLM gets a B- in staff and it's not a "melee" job lol.

I can see people saying that being able to use 2 relics at once with i higher rating would be too OP, but some jobs already have this option: PLD sword(A+)/shield(A+), RDM sword(B)/dagger(B), etc. Other jobs have access to 2 relic weapons as well even if the can't equip them both at the same time: PLD Sword(A+)/GS(B), WAR GA(A+)/GS(B+), DRK Scythe(A+)/GS(A-).

I really don't see making SAM more level with these jobs would break the game. Making SAM's archery at least B+/B seems to only make sense when comparing it to similar DD classes like WAR and DRK.

Edit: Looking back, I see Hiko and Asraa already touched on this, but I'm reiterating it with respect to jobs with relics.

[Zhronne]

I concur, B skill would be only right for SAM imho.

[Delvish]

Got a lil bored and started looking at different jobs skill caps. Correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe SAM's archery is the lowest ranked of all jobs that can use a relic weapon. Even BLM gets a B- in staff and it's not a "melee" job lol.

I can see people saying that being able to use 2 relics at once with i higher rating would be too OP, but some jobs already have this option: PLD sword(A+)/shield(A+), RDM sword(B)/dagger(B), etc. Other jobs have access to 2 relic weapons as well even if the can't equip them both at the same time: PLD Sword(A+)/GS(B), WAR GA(A+)/GS(B+), DRK Scythe(A+)/GS(A-).

I really don't see making SAM more level with these jobs would break the game. Making SAM's archery at least B+/B seems to only make sense when comparing it to similar DD classes like WAR and DRK.

Edit: Looking back, I see Hiko and Asraa already touched on this, but I'm reiterating it with respect to jobs with relics.

Thanks for putting this out there. I wasn't quite aware just how jipped we are compared to other jobs. Technically if you wanted to be picky about it, we could have a relic pole-arm before we have a relic bow as far as skill rank is concerned. Not that I want that pole-arm, just that B skill.

[Hyden]

Crossing my fingers that the new Relic armor upgrades will have some benefit to SAM archery :/ Belt and Head had ranged acc on them already so maybe we'll get a boost on those pieces at least ^^

Also, it occurs to me that they randomly raised PUP's H2H skill a while back. Wonder if SE would be willing to do this for SAM's archery as well.

Would be nice to see Camate pop his head in here and say "hi"!

[Delvish]

I completely forgot about Saotome Kabuto, because the RAcc on it was so minimal. That would be a good place to put it, right along with the belt piece.

Also, nice touch with the PUPdate. We would indeed like some feedback from devs for either yay or nay (or the classic 'we're looking into it'-maybe)!

[Mirage]

My dream set up would SAM mythic occ. att. 2-3 times and yoichinoyumi.

OA2-3 is only active if you use the WS at 300TP

[Concerned4FFxi]

Overwhelm: "Grants a damage bonus to weapons skill performed face-to-face with an enemy"
if your shooting it from a ways away (not melee range) then why would you expect the bonus your no longer face to face with that mob if your not up close and personal.

B- in archery would be ok, anything more is overpowered. As far as other jobs getting more than one A ranked skill, Sam has too much going on with its awesome abilites to be given another A rank skill.

[Hyden]

Little love from the test server :o

Saotome Kabuto +2
DEF:33 HP+28 STR+5
Attack+9 Accuracy+9
Ranged Attack+15
Ranged Accuracy+15
Lv.99 SAM

I will concede the face-to-face argument, but shouldn't bow WSs from "melee" range be subject to overwhelm bonus?

[Delvish]

Little love from the test server :o

Saotome Kabuto +2
DEF:33 HP+28 STR+5
Attack+9 Accuracy+9
Ranged Attack+15
Ranged Accuracy+15
Lv.99 SAM

I will concede the face-to-face argument, but shouldn't bow WSs from &quot;melee&quot; range be subject to overwhelm bonus? You're my new best friend Hyden. Round II, how do we get it?

Good point on Overwhelm. I'll concede as well. Even if you're up close, you'll still be suffering from ranged bonuses. As for A skill, I'd never expect something so glorious. B- at a minimum, though B would be awesome.

Just throwing this out there, the fact that they did give bonuses to Saotome Kabuto shows that they haven't forgotten us! There is hope!

[Hyden]

>.<

Looks like there was some bad translation on stats. Guess it's more like:

Saotome Kabuto +2
DEF:33 HP+28 STR+5
Attack+15 Accuracy+15
Ranged Attack+9
Ranged Accuracy+9
Lv.99 SAM

Still nice, but not quite as cool ; ; Makes sense since the +1 is Racc+7 and Acc+12.

[Delvish]

well, less accuracy than the current equipment I use, but still props to the RAtt. That is something we've always had to struggle with.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Little love from the test server :o

Saotome Kabuto +2
DEF:33 HP+28 STR+5
Attack+9 Accuracy+9
Ranged Attack+15
Ranged Accuracy+15
Lv.99 SAM

I will concede the face-to-face argument, but shouldn't bow WSs from "melee" range be subject to overwhelm bonus?

Absolutely if your gonna shoot someone in the face with a bow at melee range "overwelmed" should proc, perhaps the help text could state melee weapons only or the Dev could fix it so any ws facing the mob and in melee range processes that.

[Delvish]

Fun fact: I swapped out my normal /rng gear the other day for every piece of store to I could manage. With a 600 delay bow (yes, I realised bad skill-up weapon choice) I was getting 33 to per hit. I'll probably figure out the math at 99 to find out what we need exactly for 34tp and a 3 hit WS build (including WS)!

[Taint2]

Apex Arrow! Now we just need skill increase!

[Delvish]

I was going to ask about this, we do get it?

[hiko]

merited WS, cap 15(category) 5 (individual)= 3maxed WS or more not maxed
sam can unlock GK,polearm,ARCHERY and sword
out doing some testing (but few ranged gear)

[Taint2]

Info from BG:

K went to Zi'Tah to remove the fSTR2 problem. Tested on the funguars there.

151 STR 113 AGI = 2475 damage
137 STR 113 AGI = 2475 damage
124 STR 113 AGI = 2475 damage
124 STR 148 AGI = 2736 damage

[Delvish]

I never thought I'd live to see the day SAM/RNG makes a come back... I have to change my siggy now.

Question #2:
What do the additional merits do exactly? Higher accuracy? Higher potency? I'm certain for 100 merits on a single item it should be potent.

[Taint2]

I never thought I'd live to see the day SAM/RNG makes a come back... I have to change my siggy now.

Question #2:
What do the additional merits do exactly? Higher accuracy? Higher potency? I'm certain for 100 merits on a single item it should be potent.



WSmodifier boost. Its supposed to be 17% per merit, but 5/5 is working out to 100% mod. So yeah they get more potent as you add merits.


As for Apex, you'd be better off subbing WAR unless I'm missing something.

[Delvish]

Hmm... Archery WS without /rng... That seems awkward to me.

Looks like we're going to need a new multi-hit GK!

[hiko]

Hmm... Archery WS without /rng... That seems awkward to me.

Looks like we're going to need a new multi-hit GK!
quint spear!
oa4 magian

now hope SE add a good sam bow (other than yoichi)

[Dirtyfinger]

Might have a go at this new WS seeing as you can /WAR with it. Main reason I never did gear for Sidewinder is because of the /RNG and wanting to have better versatility by having a decent GK sub.

[Delvish]

Explored SC possibilities. It shares the same properties as Tachi: Shoha from what I can see. Konzen-Ittai produced Fragmentation. Opening SC with Tachi: Kasha, Apex Arrow closed with light. Sad though, because the other two WS that we have available (Polearm and Sword) both produced Darkness with Konzen-Ittai.

[Nala]

also slightly sad that its agi mod, though probably woulda been OP with str mod considering how ranged damage calculations work still sad face. opps almost forgot to mention ignores defence with tp so might help abit with the skill difference wonder if using the moonshade (tp bonus) would be a good ws option for this.

[Einalem]

Doing COR and SAM research (independently, but looking at Ranged attack Parallels for making up my mind to Merit AGI or INT), not actively playing those jobs (94 SCH main).
I know WAR is beastly and it's a good all around sub to SAM.
Question: Does this also open up /COR? I hear they are upping active Rolls (not sure if /COR though) and some of those have nice abilities like more Store TP, Double Attack, Ranged Acc, etc. Pirate's Earring gives +5 Ranged Attack when /COR.
Veteran SAMs, is this plausible or am I missing a core aspect of SAM subjobs that prevents this from balancing out?

I'm in theoretical /COR land right now and want to know if I'm on the right track for Merit WS and Namas Arrow:
For setup of Store TP/Haste then the swap to WS. Samurai's Roll to hit Store TP 97+ for 5 hit on 396 Delay, then swapping to Ranger's for Accuracy?

Main Quint Spear
Sub Rose Strap
Ranged Yoichinoyumi
Ammo Antlion Arrow
Head Unkai Kabuto +2 Twilight Helm
Body Unkai Domaru +2 Twilight Mail
Hands Unkai Kote +2
Legs Unkai Haidate +2 Ambusher's Hose
Feet Ace's Leggings Dilaram's Sollerets
Neck Houyi's Gorget Arctier's Torque
Waist Accursed Belt Light Belt
Ear1 Unkai Mimikazari Clearview Earring
Ear2 Brutal Earring Pirate's Earring
Ring1 Rajas Ring Arewe Ring
Ring2 Blobnag Ring
Back Misuuchi Kappa Terebellum Mantle

[Delvish]

I'd have to look into it further, but right off the bat I can tell you oot 2-4 magian weapon due to it's higher delay for more TP per hit. will win out because of it's increased delay resulting in more TO

[Delvish]

FYI for any SAMs needing to get their Archery skill back up to snuff (me), use a Lamian Kaman. The delay is so short that you will shoot about 3 times faster than 600 delay bows, not including /rng quick shot procs. On La-thien mobs, you should reach 365 base level fairly easily (cap is 378 at 99).

[Taint2]

I'd have to look into it further, but right off the bat I can tell you oot 2-4 magian weapon due to it's higher delay for more TP per hit. will win out because of it's increased delay resulting in more TO


You can 5hit Quint and it has a better hit spread....the only reason to use 2-4 is the extra ACC but on mobs you need the ACC on you are probably using Shoha and a real GKT.

[saevel]

Well Apex Arrow is looking really really nice right now. If your a SAM who happens to have RNG leveled and all the toys that go with it, might want to try the built out. I used to use SAM/RNG for fights were it was lethal to get within aoe range.

[VZX]

You don't need to sub RNG to use Apex Arrow :x
So you can have zerk to enhance your lack of atk in archery skill.

[saevel]

You don't need to sub RNG to use Apex Arrow :x
So you can have zerk to enhance your lack of atk in archery skill.

*Cough*

I know this,


If your a SAM who happens to have RNG leveled and all the toys that go with it, might want to try the built out.

Few SAMs are going to have the kind of +AGI and R.acc/R.atk gear around, plus merits in Archery to seriously give this a go. BUT there are some who have those things and could really flesh out a Apex Arrow spam set.

[Delvish]

Few SAMs are going to have the kind of +AGI and R.acc/R.atk gear around, plus merits in Archery to seriously give this a go. BUT there are some who have those things and could really flesh out a Apex Arrow spam set.

I used to have a fair set, but it is sadly dated to the 75-era when Sidewinder and RACC were prevalent. Now I need to figure out for Apex Arrow which of The two stats to aim for, RATT or all out AGI. Hit for about 1.5k consistently on low level Abyssea mobs and Lamian Kaman (poor damage). Higher bows should do considerably more.

Speaking of, outside of camping the Abyssean Amphitere
MMs, it is impossible to get a new Beursault Bow now since the Amphitere Whiskers are key components and are to weak to aggro at 99 in Xarcabard [S]. Need to find me some low level bait!

[saevel]

I used to have a fair set, but it is sadly dated to the 75-era when Sidewinder and RACC were prevalent. Now I need to figure out for Apex Arrow which of The two stats to aim for, RATT or all out AGI. Hit for about 1.5k consistently on low level Abyssea mobs and Lamian Kaman (poor damage). Higher bows should do considerably more.

Speaking of, outside of camping the Abyssean Amphitere
MMs, it is impossible to get a new Beursault Bow now since the Amphitere Whiskers are key components and are to weak to aggro at 99 in Xarcabard [S]. Need to find me some low level bait!

For Apex, I'd go full AGI.

Isn't there that bow that SAM/RNG can use that gives Namas Arrow every 13 WS? How does it's DMG/Delay stack against Beursault?

Back at 75 I had a solid SAM/RNG set. It was built arround /RA though not melee, it only got pulled out when I needed to hit and WS on things from a distance (ACP crystal comes to mind). I used Martials Bow so I could spam SW @100TP. Apex also ignores some amount of defense and accuracy isn't as much an issue as it was with SW. Together means you should be able to eat Pot Au Fua or Curry and go /WAR.

[hiko]

Well Apex Arrow is looking really really nice right now. If your a SAM who happens to have RNG leveled and all the toys that go with it, might want to try the built out. I used to use SAM/RNG for fights were it was lethal to get within aoe range.

why having RNG leveled help when most of best RNG gear are not equipable by SAM and best "range" gear sam can get are not equipable or top tier RNG gear?

[saevel]

why having RNG leveled help when most of best RNG gear are not equipable by SAM and best "range" gear sam can get are not equipable or top tier RNG gear?

Reference my above comment.

Your not going to find a player who plays SAM but not RNG and also has Archery merits and the +R.acc / R.atk / AGI gear their going to need. And while the best pieces are indeed RNG only, no character is created with a *perfect* gear selection. Everyone is in a constant state of progression, meaning not the best pieces and most likely to have quite a few shared pieces.

[Einalem]

So... I'm a newer SAM looking around at my ranged options and I notice SAM have a C+ Archery and Throwing!
I see many so-so bows, but enough for options and... wait, where are the throwing weapons? I'm supposed to skill this up how? Hmmmm... So we have people wanting more Archery skill, why not take the ranks in Throwing and put them in Archery, Square? (Heck, put it in Sword, Polearm, and Dagger as well to help Procs land)

[Delvish]

Just finished the trial set for Kawatsutsuminotachi, dmg 51; Delay 464; Occasionally attacks 2-4 times. It's like a Soboro+1 and I know a good majority of you SAMs still carry around that sword. Even on the last two-three trials, I noticed a super increase in TP gain rate (as to be expected) but this Magian GK is a must for any SAM who deals in archery.

[vixin]

wish nin got some option like sam has for range attacks sadly we dont.

[Darwena]

And playing RNG/SAM instead can't be an option? I mean, why in any way SAM/RNG should beat RNG in anything that involve a bow??? RNG are already in the bothom choice of DD in most event, dunno why we should gimp more RNG by letting another job do more DMG with bow (and not mention SAM do way enough DMG with GK)...

[Delvish]

And playing RNG/SAM instead can't be an option? I mean, why in any way SAM/RNG should beat RNG in anything that involve a bow??? RNG are already in the bothom choice of DD in most event, dunno why we should gimp more RNG by letting another job do more DMG with bow (and not mention SAM do way enough DMG with GK)...

RNG/SAM is a very valid option, though not one for the Samurai forums I'm afraid. There is no gimping being done by allowing SAMs to pursue our native capabilities in the bow. The difference between SAM and RNG with archery is similar to SCH and BLM with nukes. The former can never match the capabilities of the latter assuming the same quality of skill and equipment, but if the RNG sucks and the SAM is good then the SAM is going to seem superior. I don't think you need to worry about Samurai Archery becoming a mainstay to replace the Ranger. It takes a lot of work on the side (specific gear, skilling up, etc.) to become a proficient SAM/RNG. A lot more than the old hagun-groupie SAMs are going to want to do.

[Darwena]

Maybe I wasn't clear, english isn't my main language after all, what I mean was: SAM isn't happy with all the great stuff they have with Great Katana? GK > Archery right? if you want to shoot arrows, switch to RNG, otherwise go slash that Great Katana for a maximum of DMG... You will even save gils. Sure they can go archery but it's seem to be less efficient than melee'ing. It's like NIN throwing Shuriken... yes they can, but this so less efficient than just melee mob instead...

Edit: Just my opinion, I don't have any number to prove my point.

[Delvish]

Maybe I wasn't clear, english isn't my main language after all, what I mean was: SAM isn't happy with all the great stuff they have with Great Katana? GK > Archery right? if you want to shoot arrows, switch to RNG, otherwise go slash that Great Katana for a maximum of DMG... You will even save gils. Sure they can go archery but it's seem to be less efficient than melee'ing. It's like NIN throwing Shuriken... yes they can, but this so less efficient than just melee mob instead...

Edit: Just my opinion, I don't have any number to prove my point.

Ok, a very fair point, and I do acknowledge that. However, NIN was supposed to be a puller/DD and SAM was supposed to be a tank. So many things are not as intended simply because someone wanted to do something different. Besides, I don't like the min-max cookie cutter playing style. I like to gimp myself and see how well I do. e.g. COP Dynamis SCH99/RDM00. Failed miserably, but had a hell of a time doing it!

[Bulrogg]

I've always enjoyed the sam/rng play style. I know it is not the most DMG efficient but ITT we are specifically talking about the SAM/RNG style.

But it doesn't matter what we try to say to cult-ninjas, they will go above and beyond to toss out a 'ninja using shuriken' insult regardless of the thread. It's like a Vana'dielian six degrees of separation.

[hiko]

I've always enjoyed the sam/rng play style. I know it is not the most DMG efficient but ITT we are specifically talking about the SAM/RNG style.

But it doesn't matter what we try to say to cult-ninjas, they will go above and beyond to toss out a 'ninja using shuriken' insult regardless of the thread. It's like a Vana'dielian six degrees of separation.

throwingNIN are the new mereeRDM, crying over in every other thread

[Bulrogg]

:rolleyes:

Throwing ninjas have nothing to do with samurai archers. Cult-ninjas should stop trying to derail threads just to toss out an insult.

#sixdos

[Fupafighter]

Didn't see this anywhere, but giving samurai bow magian trials seems like an amazing ammo slot. People would just use it to make str/attack bows or tp bonus bow for their GKT. That would be unbalanced lol.

[Delvish]

Didn't see this anywhere, but giving samurai bow magian trials seems like an amazing ammo slot. People would just use it to make str/attack bows or tp bonus bow for their GKT. That would be unbalanced lol.

Ah, thank you for posting that. I need to test whether TP bonus GK affects Archery WS. The STR/Attack bow is a valid arguement and I think I addressed that much earlier on when we were discussing allowing magian bows for SAM. It does provide an incredible unbalance in game mechanics, offering a free 11 STR in a range slot. I don't think the TP bonus one would affect anything though. The way I see it, is if they allowed the Sparrow through Accipiter bows to RNG/SAM players, but Gyrfalcon RNG only, that would thoroughly eliminate SAM abuse of stat enhancing bows and focus strictly on bows that would actually be utilized. Same goes with allowing the Gymnogyps type bows, but I'm on the edge with those as I'm uncertain how they affect melee attacks.

The other part of the Accipiter bows is that either the trial or SAM's WS availability would have to be modified, as we wouldn't be able to get past the second trial

[Hyden]

Can SAM get some new arrows?

It's kind of ridiculous that the best arrows we get are:

Antlion Arrow lvl 80
DMG: 41 Delay: 90 Ranged Attack +5

and then RNG only gets:

Ruszor Arrow lvl 89
DMG: 46 Delay: 90

AND

Gargouille Arrow lvl 97
DMG: 51 Delay: 90 Ranged Accuracy +5

I know archery isn't our best skill, but no new arrows for 19 lvls when RNG got 2 kinda sux :(

[Mayoyama]

I'm guessing this is the main reason why ToM bows aren't available to non-RNGs. But it's not like it'd be anymore overpowered than any other dual wield options. Unless dual wield jobs were allowed to use bows too i guess... Idk, i really don't see the hurt in putting SAM on ToM bows too.

Try telling that to the devs after pups made a HUGE thread about ToM animators with some stats on it (since pup cant access ANY ranged or ammo gear without gimping their ability to control the automaton..) only for the devs to say an outright no due to "balance" issues...

[Hyden]

Yeah, i never really understood what their thinking was on that. They could at least make the animator an "ammo" so you could swap w/o losing TP.

[StingRay104]

heres my problem, the animator is something one controls with their hands, yet it hangs on your back. Mnks have been complaining for years about some type of strap for h2h, so why not make animators a sub weapon that works with h2h. All its gonna do is give us the ability to use our pups to the fullest, and then get ranged gear.

[Babekeke]

Can SAM get some new arrows?

It's kind of ridiculous that the best arrows we get are:

Antlion Arrow lvl 80
DMG: 41 Delay: 90 Ranged Attack +5

and then RNG only gets:

Ruszor Arrow lvl 89
DMG: 46 Delay: 90

AND

Gargouille Arrow lvl 97
DMG: 51 Delay: 90 Ranged Accuracy +5

I know archery isn't our best skill, but no new arrows for 19 lvls when RNG got 2 kinda sux :(

Welcome to THF's world. We got Last Stand*, but no decent xbows, bolts, guns or bullets >.>

[Delvish]

Welcome to THF's world. We got Exenterator, but no decent xbows, bolts, guns or bullets >.>

Last Stand*

[Hyden]

Welcome to THF's world. We got Last Stand*, but no decent xbows, bolts, guns or bullets >.>
That's a good point too, but THF doesn't get Annihiltor like SAM gets Yoichi either :/

[Delvish]

So I got a Yoichinoyumi finally. Spent the subsequent 48 hours bringing that puppy up to 95 (As SAM, the trials are MUCH easier). Now that I'm playing around with a 95 Relic Weapon, I'm noticing something about my damage. It hasn't budged.

My two primary GKs are the 100%TP bonus and the OA2-4 GK. 100%TP bonus has a damage rating of 105 and frequently drops 2.5Kish (depending on scenario, more for VW/Abyssea naturally) Tachi: Shoha's. The OA2-4 GK conversely has half that damage at 51 and, while super frequent, only reaches 1K average (see above) Shoha. What does SAM's new staple WS have to do with SAM/RNG style fighting? The simple fact that my 95 Relic Weapon is doing 1K average Namas/Apex Arrows. Sound familiar? It is doing the same damage as my toothpick GK, while it is at 118DMG with Antlion Arrows (another sore spot) at 41DMG. I think a little reworking of archery damage is in order.

I believe I recall someone saying TP bonus from the GK does affect archery WS too, but the Namas and Apex WS have the same TP modifier across the board so 100% and 300% don't make a difference beyond Apex's DEF bypass.

On the above note with arrows, SAMs highest arrow is the Antlion Arrow, which comes in 10 damage below the highest available one. I would very much like a better arrow please.

[SpankWustler]

My two primary GKs are the 100%TP bonus and the OA2-4 GK. 100%TP bonus has a damage rating of 105 and frequently drops 2.5Kish (depending on scenario, more for VW/Abyssea naturally) Tachi: Shoha's. The OA2-4 GK conversely has half that damage at 51 and, while super frequent, only reaches 1K average (see above) Shoha. What does SAM's new staple WS have to do with SAM/RNG style fighting? The simple fact that my 95 Relic Weapon is doing 1K average Namas/Apex Arrows. Sound familiar? It is doing the same damage as my toothpick GK, while it is at 118DMG with Antlion Arrows (another sore spot) at 41DMG. I think a little reworking of archery damage is in order.

To get really solid Namas Arrow performance, you need a lot of attack buffs. A lot of a lot of attack buffs. Ranged attacks and weapon-skills have a much higher attack cap than even two-handed melee attacks and weapon-skills.

Specifically, Namas Arrows starts becoming a valid option somewhere around or after the same point that you stop seeing any improvement from attack buffs on Great Katana weapon-skills due to hitting the attack cap. Probably some point after, compared to Tachi: Shoha with its attack boost.

Edit:

I want to be more specific and less of a dick, because I'm no longer high on painkillers or clutching my neck and howling like a badger with its balls tied to a hot air balloon:

The Attack/Defense ratio for ranged weapons caps at 3.0 instead of the 2.25 for two-handed weapons. As the monster's level grows and grows and level correction grows and grows, the "final" capped result is pushed closer to 2.0 VS 1.25 and that .75 difference becomes more pronounced. Ranged attack is also pushed more slowly into the sadness zone, by only -.025 per level difference instead of -.05 per level difference. Between these two things, ranged attacks gain a lot of ground on high level monsters.

Uncapped attack is pushed down similarly, it's not just the cap that changes, but showing that would make my head hurt. I think uncapped attack is relevant enough to note, however. It's entirely possible that a Samurai with a bow has uncapped Ranged Attack in almost any situation, though, between lower skill and worse equipment selection and being within melee range rather than at ideal range. That's where all the attack buffs, and I mean very nearly "all possible attack buffs" when I say that, come in.

The end result is that when you have half a dozen attack buffs and almost that many defense down effects in play while facing Captain AoEpants McAoEstein from Level 120, Namas Arrow rapidly recovers ground and then ends up ahead.

Sorry that I didn't dig this deep before, as it would have made the post make a bit more sense. This particular use could be argued to be ridiculously situational, maybe even useless to someone who keeps a healthy distance from Legion. Then again, I'd be shocked if anyone who made a Relic Bow explicitly for Samurai wasn't expecting a situational weapon.

Also, I hate hot air balloons.

[Demon6324236]

Correct me if I am wrong but SAM/WAR is better than SAM/RNG with Yochi isn't it?

[SpankWustler]

Correct me if I am wrong but SAM/WAR is better than SAM/RNG with Yochi isn't it?

I can't speak for all niche situations when someone might want to use a bow on Samurai and won't pretend to, but in the situation that I described, most definitely.

Berserk is a ridiculously powerful attack buff and ranged stuff is almost always hungry for attack buffs. Berserk would be more-or-less required for Namas Arrow to perform well enough to pull ahead by a noticeable margin, and using Tachi:Shoha when Berserk was down would be something to seriously consider.

[Demon6324236]

What does SAM's new staple WS have to do with SAM/RNG style fighting?I asked cause this line seems to imply he has been using SAM/RNG, which could also be part of why the difference seems small or non-existent.

[Delvish]

I asked cause this line seems to imply he has been using SAM/RNG, which could also be part of why the difference seems small or non-existent.

Actually I put in the /rng style fighting to imply the use of a bow instead of purely GK. I do use /war in most situations except VW when an actual RNG is not present.

Also, thanks for the insight on attack boosts. I'll have to play around with different gear sets to get the most.

[hiko]

some nice info about end game as yoichi sam in legion :
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/108713-Legion-info-and-strategies?p=5604927&viewfull=1#post5604927

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/108713-Legion-info-and-strategies?p=5611484&viewfull=1#post5611484

[Delvish]

some nice info about end game as yoichi sam in legion :
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/108713-Legion-info-and-strategies?p=5604927&viewfull=1#post5604927

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/108713-Legion-info-and-strategies?p=5611484&viewfull=1#post5611484

Oh thanks for the info Hiko. The second link hits on a rather staggering factor I stupidly never thought of, and that is my distance from the target. Naturally, taking the time to run out 10 paces and back just for the WS is a waste of time. Goes without saying. But it mentions simply standing at max melee range so you do attack constantly but still receive a portion of the ranged effect has a smaller, yet substantial effect on the over-all damage. I'll have to ensure I note that point.

One thing I've noticed though, is that each of these posts give reference to the Amano+Yoichi combo. I feel like I'm missing a crucial factor here. To me, the OA2-4 Magian GK is vastly superior in terms of WS frequency. So much so, that if I pause for even a few seconds I could find myself at 150+TP (Sometimes do anyway, going from 80% into a 4 hit). In my mind, I think that if the above players used a OA2-4 Magian GK over Amano, the damage from the added Namas Arrows would override the melee damage from Amano. Again, that is how my mind sees it and numbers are not necessarily my strong-suit.

[Demon6324236]

So far as I know the reason for them using Amano in the situation in question is because it is Legion, where you need the extra accuracy from it to make sure you are hitting hit rate cap. I think the 2~4 is probably better in cases where you are simply using only Namas, and have no need for the accuracy, however I could easily be wrong.

[hiko]

So far as I know the reason for them using Amano in the situation in question is because it is Legion, where you need the extra accuracy from it to make sure you are hitting hit rate cap. I think the 2~4 is probably better in cases where you are simply using only Namas, and have no need for the accuracy, however I could easily be wrong.
yes it's written somewhere in the thread that he need amano acc, and that using accu food instead of RCB would hurt namas too much

[Delvish]

Hey all you Archers out there, we got a present~ (as did everyone else that can use a bow though).

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/21309/chapuli-arrow (http://http://www.ffxiah.com/item/21309/chapuli-arrow)
+7 damage compared to Antlion Arrow, and +5 RACC instead of RATT. Less RATT, but more accuracy that we don't need elsewhere.

[Delvish]

Noticed looking through some of the stat mod adjustments SE is doing soon, Ranged weapons are included. RATT will be boosted to a 75% STR mod, which we do really well at. RACC is naturally agi based, as are most WS, so we won't become supremely awesome through this, but we should see a pretty good damage boost through this adjustment along with the single wielders.

[Hyden]

If they really end up letting us unlock Empy WS's, they should really just let SAM have Jishnu's while they're at it :D

[Mirage]

Only if they give thieves wildfire!