Anyone try Apoc/RR/SS?

[xbobx]

Right now I use apoc/rr/VV could SS be potentially better?

[xiozen]

Right now I use apoc/rr/VV could SS be potentially better?

SS = Smoldering Sky? Sanguine Scythe? Shimmering Shell? Sundering Slash? Shattering Star? Siren Shadow?

=/

[xbobx]

I thought everyone know SS was Sanguine Scythe lol.

[xiozen]

I thought everyone know SS was Sanguine Scythe lol.

What gave you that thought? "everyone know SS was Sanguine Scythe"?... <.<''

I don't have Sanguine Scythe primarily because, in my opinion my critical hit dmg is maxed using Razed Ruins + merits in critical hit... since Sanguine Scythe's only other benefit is +hpts and a minor +enmity, you'll gain more mileage using Apoc/Razed and another atma which either gives you a greater tp regain effect/regen effect or double attack effect.

So I use the following (situational at best depending on mob):

Razed Ruins/Sea Daughter/Voracious Violet (if I don't need a huge boost to evasion) or
Razed Ruins/Sea Daughter/Siren Shadow (if I do need a huge boost to evasion) or
Razed Ruins/Sea Daughter/Ducal Guard (if I want my Automaton to tank w/ me assisting)

I typically only use Apocalypse if I know there's a high chance of being K.O'd.

[Dfoley]

What gave you that thought? "everyone know SS was Sanguine Scythe"?... <.<''

I don't have Sanguine Scythe primarily because, in my opinion my critical hit dmg is maxed using Razed Ruins + merits in critical hit... since Sanguine Scythe's only other benefit is +hpts and a minor +enmity, you'll gain more mileage using Apoc/Razed and another atma which either gives you a greater tp regain effect/regen effect or double attack effect.

So I use the following (situational at best depending on mob):

Razed Ruins/Sea Daughter/Voracious Violet (if I don't need a huge boost to evasion) or
Razed Ruins/Sea Daughter/Siren Shadow (if I do need a huge boost to evasion) or
Razed Ruins/Sea Daughter/Ducal Guard (if I want my Automaton to tank w/ me assisting)

I typically only use Apocalypse if I know there's a high chance of being K.O'd.

Lets go with: "everyone who does DD knows that SS is sanguine scythe"

1) your critical hit rate isnt caped, its probably at 66-70% out of 100
2) SS adds critical hit dmg. caped at 100% now and you are probably at 30% with just RR since almost not pup gear or merits add to it
3) you should never use sea daughter unless you are just procing red/blue on mobs, inwhich case you shouldn't be on pup anyways. You should be on monk, nin, war with vv/sea daughters/sundering or some similar combination.

Ideally you want 100% crit and 100% crit dmg, the question bob is asking is does 30% crit dmg out weigh 10% DA with 2 regain.

I am coming out with the following using kinematics pup spread sheet, which I dont know if it corrects for the new 100% cap, but even if it doesnt, ss still wins.

ss/rr/apoc : 273
vv/rr/apoc : 269
gh/rr/apoc : 266

[xiozen]

Lets go with: "everyone who does DD knows that SS is sanguine scythe"

1) your critical hit rate isnt caped, its probably at 66-70% out of 100
2) SS adds critical hit dmg. caped at 100% now and you are probably at 30% with just RR since almost not pup gear or merits add to it
3) you should never use sea daughter unless you are just procing red/blue on mobs, inwhich case you shouldn't be on pup anyways. You should be on monk, nin, war with vv/sea daughters/sundering or some similar combination.

Ideally you want 100% crit and 100% crit dmg, the question bob is asking is does 30% crit dmg out weigh 10% DA with 2 regain.

I am coming out with the following using kinematics pup spread sheet, which I dont know if it corrects for the new 100% cap, but even if it doesnt, ss still wins.

ss/rr/apoc : 273
vv/rr/apoc : 269
gh/rr/apoc : 266

So you would sacrifice +5 or +7 tp regain on both you and your automaton, in addition to (during daytime only) +30 regen effect on both you and your automaton for a pretty low triple attack effect? (because that's pretty much all your getting with melee using Apoc)?

Speaking from experience, not using Sea Daughter (which also means decreasing the number of darkness skill-chains), is seriously gimping your damage output. It all comes down to personal choice.

And since I don't use Sanguine Scythe, I'd be speaking out of turn to reflect on it...so kudos to those that do use it.

[SpankWustler]

Sea Daughter has a little under +15% slow on it, which you're neglecting to mention. If you're not a Ranger or Corsair, it's not your friend. It is, in fact, your enemy. Your mortal enemy.

[xiozen]

Sea Daughter has a little under +15% slow on it, which you're neglecting to mention. If you're not a Ranger or Corsair, it's not your friend. It is, in fact, your enemy. Your mortal enemy.

The Slow effect is negligible; considering the bonuses involved. I suggest to anyone that "doesn't" have it; give it a spin and see if it works for you.

[xbobx]

Thanks for the responses. I chuckled a little at the fact there is a kinematics pup spread sheet. All seem fairly close it seems at least. VV is nice when you are walking around, moving from spot to spot because you and puppet will both have TP ready. Maybe nice on nms where you have to sit back and wait until yellow or red is processed, then you can darkness on the mob.

GH is obviously nice when you are soloing easier things, get better protection but lose only a small amount.

SS seems good if you are just non stop wailing on things. And SS should be bigger pummels which means more added darkness dmg.

Good info.

[Jar]

From what i remember Adding SS ontop of RR for jobs without the "Critical attack bonus" trait will still result in 30% damage boosted because without the trait the cap is still 50% and if atma do not take full effect they don't take affect at all

meaning that 30+30 will not be capped at 50 but the 2nd Boost will do nothing.

i havnt tryed for this on pup tho i mainly GH/RR/Apoc because crit rate is when your attack is ***<3


also lol'd at the SD atma guy that's *** hilariousness.

[xbobx]

Well what I heard was critical damage bonus use to be capped at 50% but people have said SE removed that cap and raised it to 100%. So yes, SS all depends on if that cap was raised or not. I like GH just because almost every hit is a crit and it just makes you feel strong. AGI is modifier for Sharpshot's WS is that true, they said that is best combo RR,GH,Apoc for ranger puppet?
I tend to use VE just because I don't have VS and VE is less maintenance and sometimes i feel lazy.

[Alpheus]

I'm pretty sure SE raised the cap although it wasn't an official declaration but I remember someone in the DRK forums swearing up and down that the crit cap being raised was such BS since it kinda rained on the parade of the Last Resort buff.

[Jar]

I'm pretty sure SE raised the cap although it wasn't an official declaration but I remember someone in the DRK forums swearing up and down that the crit cap being raised was such BS since it kinda rained on the parade of the Last Resort buff.

it was me <_<;;;

[Jar]

Also i know Of the cap increase i was saying that without this trait ->LINK (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Critical_Attack_Bonus)

somewhere i thought i saw that without that trait the cap is still 50%

[Alpheus]

oh i see. wasn't really commenting on your commenting btw just that it was memorable and i tie it to me having learned of the crit cap being raised

Edit: Also bit of an awkward moment xD

[SpankWustler]

The Slow effect is negligible; considering the bonuses involved. I suggest to anyone that "doesn't" have it; give it a spin and see if it works for you.

Feel free to do what you want to yourself and your automaton, but please refrain from spreading misinformation when providing advice. It's ~15% Slow and that's ~15% less damage. That's a huge drawback which you didn't even see fit to mention.

Well, unless that mysterious hidden effect on Animator +1 is to negate all negative effects of Atma.

[Dfoley]

Its actually quite worse then just 15% less damage.

When you factor in that its 'gear' haste, and that it slows your pet as well your looking at base line 30% less damage. And no ammount of epeen ws will compensate for that.

[xiozen]

also lol'd at the SD atma guy that's *** hilariousness.

Glad I gave you a good laugh.. now go out and get SD for yourself^.^/ You'll love it.

[Dfoley]

erm, i use SD all the time for triggering blue/reds, and I can honestly say my dps takes a HUGE hit when i use SD over any other of the common DD atma.

The only time it would be good is if you had 40% gear haste...

On a side note, you can just shorten your sig to:


They see me trollin, they hatin....

since every time you post its just another set of obviously bad information.

[Zhronne]

The Slow effect is negligible
Are you serious saying 15% Slow is negligible? Or am I missing something here?
I'm just asking, not trolling.

If you're serious I'm afraid you're underestimating the strenght of Haste (and, consequentially, the influence of Slow) and hence I suggest you give a quick look to THIS (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1847-Haste-and-You...-A-guide-to-the-misinformed.) thread.

[Zhronne]

for a pretty low triple attack effect?
It's not "pretty low", it's actually pretty high. 15% is a very good number and don't forget as a Martial artist you get double the chances to proc it on each attack turn. That is 15% for left fist and 15% for right fist, on each attack round.

[Kristal]

It's not "pretty low", it's actually pretty high. 15% is a very good number and don't forget as a Martial artist you get double the chances to proc it on each attack turn. That is 15% for left fist and 15% for right fist, on each attack round.

Not to mention the pet gets it too, as well as weaponskills like Victory Smite and Stringing Pummel.

[Zhronne]

Yes, the first two hits of each weapon skill get a 15% chance to proc it, as far as the total number of hits remains under 8.
Which means that you get a 15%x2 chance to get FOUR additional hits on Victory Smite, for example, and all of those four hits also have a chance to be criticals, with all the bonus that Razed Ruins brings along concerning critical hits.

I'm not a big fan of AoApocalypse Myself for other silly OCD reasons, but it's undeniable that it's one of the highest damage enhancing Atmas. Anybody can check it out with MATHEMATIC PROOF (i.e. not single users' opinions) running a Spreadsheet, for example Kinematic's/Motenten's.

I'm not an elitist, I don't have big problems accepting people who say "I don't want to use it for this or that silly reason", but spreading wrong information and saying it's a "meh" atma or that it's a "pretty low" triple attack is just wrong, imho.

[xiozen]

It's not "pretty low", it's actually pretty high. 15% is a very good number and don't forget as a Martial artist you get double the chances to proc it on each attack turn. That is 15% for left fist and 15% for right fist, on each attack round.

Sorry but it is very low for... for a "slow" effect... and it's not 15%, its less than 12%

[Zhronne]

Sorry but it is very low for... for a "slow" effect... and it's not 15%, its less than 12%
The 15% in my post, which you have quoted, refers to the "Triple Attack" bonus that "Atma of Apocalypse" provides to each of your (and your automaton's) fists on each attack turn.

Concerning the "Slow" effect on Atma of the Sea Daughter it was supposed to be approximately 15%, but even if we were talking about 10% it would still be a very large amount.
Again, I'm afraid you're not yet fully grasping the full exent of the power that comes from the "Haste" stat within the game mechanics of Final Fantasy XI, so I kindly invite you once more to read the very nice and explicative thread which I linked to you in one of my previous posts.

[esoR]

just adding: RR/VV/Apoc is my preferred combo with VE or just soloing (swap VV for stout arm with sharpshot, keep VV for valorshot) the double attack and regain rate, improve your automatons ws rate dramatically as well as your own.

dont forget the 50 str, which is a pummel mod, and base atk. SS might net higher spike damage, but VV will guarantee you a much much higher ws rate, and much more damage over time if you play aggresive. on average, except for random triple attacks, my pummels stay relatively close to my ls mnk's smites with that atma combo, with my VE frame hitting almost as often for 2.5k string shredders.
overall its a nice sett-up to use, that allows flexibility in subjob and survivability.

[xiozen]

Anybody can check it out with MATHEMATIC PROOF (i.e. not single users' opinions) running a Spreadsheet, for example Kinematic's/Motenten's.

Proof? Let me give you the definition of proof: evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth

You profess to state that the kinematic's/Motenten's spreadsheet is sufficient proof to base your opinions off of... and that's ok... for you. It seems that you'd prefer to use someone else's opinion (is the developer of the kinematics spreadsheet) a prior SE developer of the FFXI game? In order for me to use someone elses' formulas and calculations (who knows where the raw data originated from... ) Its so easy to "hmm tweak this and tweak that..." to make it fit an equation in excel it's not even funny--and to have people blindly follow along assuming the information is correct, this is based off of their own lack of knowledge...

I can only assume the blind leading the blind, because, ta da...we're not developers of this game, merely players...that can, at most, use what has been provided to use and try to determine how best it fits our gaming needs.

So please, spare me to...link to said spreadsheet to prove anything... its a waste of time. I prefer to "try things out on my own and experience them first hand" to base my opinion on what works and what does not work...then I share those "experiences" (key word) with others.

[xiozen]

just adding: RR/VV/Apoc is my preferred combo with VE or just soloing (swap VV for stout arm with sharpshot, keep VV for valorshot) the double attack and regain rate, improve your automatons ws rate dramatically as well as your own.

dont forget the 50 str, which is a pummel mod, and base atk. SS might net higher spike damage, but VV will guarantee you a much much higher ws rate, and much more damage over time if you play aggresive. on average, except for random triple attacks, my pummels stay relatively close to my ls mnk's smites with that atma combo, with my VE frame hitting almost as often for 2.5k string shredders.
overall its a nice sett-up to use, that allows flexibility in subjob and survivability.

If you don't mind... I've used RR/VV/APoc but have yet to see a 2.5k, unless it's on a mob that's weak to that type of attack (slash)... if you can recall, what mobs were you fighting that gave consistent 2.5k string shreds using that atma combo; and what attachments did you use--I would like to try it out... I've been fighting in Uleg. Range [A] more so lately on metal mobs. Thx!

[xbobx]

I get approx 2.5k string shredders all the time. Sorry Xiozen everyone is telling you that you are wrong because you are very wrong. I have never ever seen any melee person use Sea Daughter unless its to process, ever. Are you seriously that stubborn that you can't just admit you are wrong? Are you that afraid to be wrong?

[Zhronne]

You profess to state that the kinematic's/Motenten's spreadsheet is sufficient proof to base your opinions off of... and that's ok... for you.
I don't think I "professed" anything. I think I rather stated, but maybe we're getting into a linguistic knot. As it should be clear enough from my posts English is not my mother language, furtherly it's offtopic to the goals of our discussion so let's leave it away for now, shall we?

The important part about this quoted sentence is that final "for you". Mathematics, at least this kind of math, is not relative. It is, period. It's objective, it's not an opinion, there's not a "for me", a "for you", a "for him".
Motenten is not a perfect being without flaws, he's a human being and hence susceptible to mistakes, but his work has been checked by several people, it's not just his own work. You can check it yourself if you open the xls file and do some deep analysys of the math imbued in that file.
It has reliability.
It has proof because it's not someone stating an opinion or reporting a parse data with a non-statistically reliable number of fights.
It's not someone just sharing his personal opinion.
It's mostly just raw ojbective mathematical data.
As imperfect as that may be (since it's obviously impossible to realize a mathematical model that includes each and every variable that could possibly happen) it's certainly much closer to "perfection" than any of our personal opinion because it's supported by:
1) a reliable, objective and efficient mathematical model
2) a great amount of data
3) it is consistent (reproducible)

It's a bit preposterous that I'm the one advocating such things, since I'm definitely a pretty math-ignorant kind of person, it feels a bit awkward.



It seems that you'd prefer to use someone else's opinion
You see, once again I don't wanna say that you are "wrong", I wanna be optimistic and just guess that you still haven't got the concept behind it.
It is NOT Kinematic's or ANYBODY else's opinion. It is NOT an opinion
Kinematic's spreadsheet is not an assembled document of opinions.
It is an instrument.
You don't just "read" it, you "use" it.
To use a metaphor, it's not a table with a lot of numbers and people's comments suggesting which numbers to use.
It's more like a calculator allowing you to perform several mathematical operations to get objective data. FROM this objective data (which is mostly undeniable and hardly susceptible to opinions) each of us can get to his own personal conclusions and decisions according to the content he has to do, his gear or just his own personal preference.
I trust it's clearer now? I hope :) Or maybe someone with a better knowledge of the english language might attempt to explain things to you in a more efficient way.


and to have people blindly follow
There's nothing to "blindly follow" in a spreadsheet. It has no indications. As I mentioned before it's just an instrument in your own hands. He just provides raw objective data, it's you who decide what to do with that data and which conclusions to get to.

But again, why are we discussing so much about Kine's or anybody elses's spreadsheet? What's the point? A Spreadsheet is mostly used to fine-tune a character or to make a better decision on something you're unsure of. There can be some big surprises there.


The big point of our discussion here is rather the thing about slow, and that has little to do with Kine's spreadsheet. Did you manage to read the link I suggested above? Even my grandmother could probably understand it.
Hell, even I am able to understand that sort of things and trust me I've never been good with math and related stuff.



I can only assume the blind leading the blind
Stop making silly philosophy.
We're not in a lesson of sociology here, and we're not discussing about the moral value of leading people and people being led.
No space to make ideology or even discuss about them.
We're just talking about data and objective mathematical stuff, don't take a further step please and try to stay focused on this.
I don't know if someone's been rude to you or if you're taking this too personal.
If you just don't fully grasp the importance of the Haste mechanic in a game like FFXI it's no big deal, nobody did at first, right?
It's no problem, just get yourself informed, feed yourself with that "knowledge" you talk of, and you'll realize for yourself what other people have been more or less educatedly trying to tell you :)

[xiozen]

In response to Zhronne, very lengthy post... and I'll just end it here with reiterating my position--I'm not asking for confirmation--I don't need any, really I don't. But nevertheless I do (believe it or not) appreciate seeing others opinions, and we all have a way to play. So I'll leave it at that...and again, thx for the feedback, much appreciated. ^.^

[Zhronne]

Xiozen nobody says you have to change your playstyle, your atmas, your gear, your macros.
I hate when people do that to me, especially when I didn't ask for advice. I really hate it.
I'm one of the silliest players around and well renokwn for doing silly and stupid things (wanna know one of the many? Back at 75 I was TPing in full Usu on my sam despite having Haidate, Dusk and lots more!).

I agree and concur that everybody should be more than free to play however they sees fit. I hate that kind of elitism, especially because the majority of those people don't even understand what they're saying, they're just blindly following somebody else, and with this I agree with what you' were saying earlier.

But the point here is spreading wrong information and refusing to admit things. If you were to say "It's ok I know this and I know that but I prefer to keep playing this way because XXX" there would be no problem at all on my side. The reason XXX could be any and trust me I wouldn't judge you.
The problem here is kinda different though, since you're just being touchy, proud and stubborn.
Just wanted to say that nobody here, or at least not me, wanted to make you change your ways. It was rather an attempt to raise your awarness about something, but so far you returned each attempt to the sender, so I guess that's a clear signal of something.

What can I say in the end, sorry we disturbed you?

[xiozen]

But the point here is spreading wrong information and refusing to admit things. If you were to say "It's ok I know this and I know that but I prefer to keep playing this way because XXX" there would be no problem at all on my side. The reason XXX could be any and trust me I wouldn't judge you.
The problem here is kinda different though, since you're just being touchy, proud and stubborn.
Just wanted to say that nobody here, or at least not me, wanted to make you change your ways. It was rather an attempt to raise your awarness about something, but so far you returned each attempt to the sender, so I guess that's a clear signal of something.

What can I say in the end, sorry we disturbed you?

As to the above quote, I can really say the same thing about everyone on this post, including you... so at this point, it's kinda "meh"..to me. ^^ I'm sure there are plenty of other topics to discuss right about now. I'm over it.

[Jar]

dude Zhronne if you speak to the trolls or they win it's like rule #14

[Dfoley]

Sadly i wish he was a troll, at least it would all make sense

1) recomends to every pup to use tactical processor
2) offers nor proof or evidence to why or what it does
3) says theres a difference between automaton behavior with different animators
4) offers no proof/evidence
5) says animator affect stacks with tactical processor
6) no proof or evidence
7) says SD is a dd atma, discounts slow as negligible, calls 15% TA minor.

I mean its very clear the tendency to pass on bad information, but i really dont think hes trolling, just very, very very uneducated about game mechanics

[TimeMage]

Not to mention the dubious choices of weapon (DA H2H) and the piling on eva gear when most of the time it takes much, much less eva to cap it.

[Jar]

Not to mention the dubious choices of weapon (DA H2H) and the piling on eva gear when most of the time it takes much, much less eva to cap it.

i have a full EVA build i macro in like PDT for TP moves that are physical <.< because it works from what i've seen but i have a mix set(haste/eva) i use for normal eva tanking <.<

[xiozen]

Sadly i wish he was a troll, at least it would all make sense

1) recomends to every pup to use tactical processor
2) offers nor proof or evidence to why or what it does
3) says theres a difference between automaton behavior with different animators
4) offers no proof/evidence
5) says animator affect stacks with tactical processor
6) no proof or evidence
7) says SD is a dd atma, discounts slow as negligible, calls 15% TA minor.

I mean its very clear the tendency to pass on bad information, but i really dont think hes trolling, just very, very very uneducated about game mechanics

1) Absolutely-- and let me add, combine this with the Optic Fiber attachment
2) By doing what I ask, the proof is in the pudding :) You'll experience it for yourself.
3) There is a HUGE difference between animators... If you need proof.../sigh... equip the level 1 animator and use a non-mage frame for better results, fight colibri (use attachments that don't rely on magic recast) but focus on job ability related actions... use a stop watch or other mechanism for counting secs... count use the appropriate maneuvers to activate the abilities associated with the attachments you have on your automaton... note the difference, between each specific job related action (not necessarily melee swings)... do this for about 10-15 mins. Then swap out either +1 version or Deluxe version... I haven't done this with the Turbo, but the results should be the same. Why give you something if you already possess it within yourselves to recreate :P
4) See #3
5) see #1 lol
6) see previous numbers... /sigh
7) edit...never called TA 15%.... i stated that the triple attack was small and that the slow given by SD was more like 12% and not 15%, and yes it is negligible when you use a multi-weapon, and your pet has a +7 tp regain effect (if you liked using Burts, using this atma combined with VV, your automaton will most likely spam it's tp move, or if you have an inhibitor attached, you'll be able to do wonders setting up a mob for major pain).

See, unlike a lot of folks that profess to be PUP mains... I actually am. So all this is based on my experience, not some random spreadsheet with fudged formulas.

If you don't like what I say, ignore it. But I'm sharing my experiences... I love that key word: Experience^^

PS: I apologize in advance for my uneducated game mechanics... but last time I checked, "Freedom of Speech" was a constitutional right :) You use it, well so can I.

/cheers

[xiozen]

Not to mention the dubious choices of weapon (DA H2H) and the piling on eva gear when most of the time it takes much, much less eva to cap it.

I wasn't gonna respond...but i have no choice... dubious choice of weapon DA H2H? Do you own a pair? Look at the gear we have, how much of it gives Double Attack? Actually, let me back up, I assumed a H2H job would love to Double Attack or even Triple Attack or better yet, Quadruple Attack... I do! A LOT!... initially I created and used the OccAttck 2-4...(suprised...? :) That weapon WAS freakin' the bomb for continues Stringing Pummels... (stacked on subtle blow to minimize tp gain on the mob worked fairly well)... now, as player level increased, the +dmg vers Double Attck became more of an enticement--so I elected to re-do the trials and now I own a weapon that I absolutely love. I don't know about you but I have a life outside of Final Fantasy and until I get the ultimate weapon for PUP I desire, Kenkonken, I'll settle for these--multi-hit, excellent dmg (+30 and soon to be +33 with update), stacks with Double attack from gear... combined with evasion set, combined with TP regain on both master and automaton... (I macro in Cirque +2 for weapon skill)... so yea... I enjoy the job a lot. So if it's dubious to you, then we have different play styles... pray tell...what is your play style on pup?

[Karbuncle]

Is someone still seriously recommending Tactical Processor after SE already told us what it does? Its complete crap. The Overload risk is not worth it checking to Silena you once more per minute. Its simply not worth wasting a spot on.

Oh and Xio, I hear what you're saying, But you're still very wrong. 5tp/tic Regain is not worth a 12% Slow on its own, let alone considering the Alternative is 15% Triple Attack.

No one here is suggestion you change your playstyle, But the advice you are giving is bad. No PUP serious about DD'ing should put on a Atma with 12%Slow. That significantly hurts you and your pet.

----

A Bit more on Topic, as for Atma combos for PUP, I generally use RR/GH/Apoc, or sometimes VV/RR/Apoc. RR/SS/Apoc for the lulz occasionally. But i think VV/RR/Apoc is my favorite for DD. RR/GH/Apoc being very close second.

[Byrth]

I don't know if it has been linked yet, but the Slow effect of Sea Daughter (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Atma_of_the_Sea_Daughter)is certainly 15%.

[Vivik]

The Slow effect is negligible; considering the bonuses involved. I suggest to anyone that "doesn't" have it; give it a spin and see if it works for you.

I bet you're one of those people that would TP in full heca too, eh?

Saying any kind of slow effect is negligible shows how little you know about game mechanics. How about this, instead of saying "try it you'll like it" or "see for yourself", why don't you collect some data to back up your claims of it being "better" with some solid numbers?

Claiming "this is how I like to play" is just a cop out to the above quoted text.

[xiozen]

Is someone still seriously recommending Tactical Processor after SE already told us what it does? Its complete crap. The Overload risk is not worth it checking to Silena you once more per minute. Its simply not worth wasting a spot on.

Oh and Xio, I hear what you're saying, But you're still very wrong. 5tp/tic Regain is not worth a 12% Slow on its own, let alone considering the Alternative is 15% Triple Attack.

No one here is suggestion you change your playstyle, But the advice you are giving is bad. No PUP serious about DD'ing should put on a Atma with 12%Slow. That significantly hurts you and your pet.

----

A Bit more on Topic, as for Atma combos for PUP, I generally use RR/GH/Apoc, or sometimes VV/RR/Apoc. RR/SS/Apoc for the lulz occasionally. But i think VV/RR/Apoc is my favorite for DD. RR/GH/Apoc being very close second.

I've read a lot of your posts Karb, I respect your opinion^^

Question regarding your usage of RR/GH/Apoc, what kind of gear do you use for this set-up? and what Automaton do you generally rely on when you do this? soulsoother? or another set-up?

[Karbuncle]

Question regarding your usage of RR/GH/Apoc, what kind of gear do you use for this set-up?

My PUP gear is terribly incomplete, actually. But as it stands i use...

Taipain+2(Fire) - Animator -
+1 Head - Tierc(orEmp) Brutal - Aesir
Goliard - Relic/Emp+1 - Rajas - Epona's
Pantin - Twilight - +2 legs - Aurore

What i need is

+2 Head/Body/Hands.
Usukane or Enkidu Feet

I don't play as much often, But thats my current TP set. Far from perfect. My WS set is

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/230000

Things not changed same as above. This one, again far from perfect. I don't play PUP often...


and what Automaton do you generally rely on when you do this? soulsoother? or another set-up?

I usually do things in groups, So i tend to use the Valoredge Frame or Ranger Frame. but generally ValorEdge. I don't have to worry too much about cures in this situation (Since i generally have a WHM)

[SpankWustler]

PS: I apologize in advance for my uneducated game mechanics... but last time I checked, "Freedom of Speech" was a constitutional right :) You use it, well so can I.

Now, it's entirely possible that I'm too high on muscle relaxants to understand sentences made out of words made out of letters, but here's my take on the quoted sentence:

"I have every right to post incorrect information and I fully intend to make use of this right. I will make use of it like an anteater making use of his or her prehensile tongue. Feels good man."

Is my interpretation of the sentence accurate? If so...I...don't...can't...There is no understanding. My mind is blank but I feel no one-ness with the universe. Buddha was a fat, contented liar.

[xiozen]

My PUP gear is terribly incomplete, actually. But as it stands i use...

Taipain+2(Fire) - Animator -
+1 Head - Tierc(orEmp) Brutal - Aesir
Goliard - Relic/Emp+1 - Rajas - Epona's
Pantin - Twilight - +2 legs - Aurore

What i need is

+2 Head/Body/Hands.
Usukane or Enkidu Feet

I don't play as much often, But thats my current TP set. Far from perfect. My WS set is

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/230000

Things not changed same as above. This one, again far from perfect. I don't play PUP often...



I usually do things in groups, So i tend to use the Valoredge Frame or Ranger Frame. but generally ValorEdge. I don't have to worry too much about cures in this situation (Since i generally have a WHM)

Thanks--for the response.

It's my main, so I thought I'd share as well:

My Evasion set is : http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/230001 (this works wonders for me /nin or /dnc)

And my Weapon skill set is: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/230003 (impressive numbers come from this for me)

I still need to get the +2 head, 4 items shy...but the Anwig w/ Weapon Skill Accuracy +15 works well as a macro item. I play pup as much as I can... can't wait to continue my work towards the Kenkonken. /cheers!

[Vivik]

And my Weapon skill set is: http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/230003 (impressive numbers come from this for me)


According to your equip history you don't have most of that +2 gear.

[Theytak]

[[ 1) recomends to every pup to use tactical processor: ]]
[[ 1) Absolutely-- and let me add, combine this with the Optic Fiber attachment ]]
[[ 2) offers nor proof or evidence to why or what it does ]]
[[ 2) By doing what I ask, the proof is in the pudding :) You'll experience it for yourself. ]]

We have no way of knowing how to prove this ourselves, and further "It's true because I say it's true, if you don't believe me, go do the testing for me and prove it yourself" is not a viable argument. Also, tactical processor was released in 2006, and countless amounts of testing has been done and the overall conclusion of 5 years worth of testing by dozens of different people disagrees with you. Provide the MATHEMATICAL PROOF of your findings, and your statement will be valid.

[[ 7) says SD is a dd atma, discounts slow as negligible, calls 15% TA minor. ]]
[[ 7) edit...never called TA 15%.... i stated that the triple attack was small and that the slow given by SD was more like 12% and not 15%, and yes it is negligible when you use a multi-weapon, and your pet has a +7 tp regain effect (if you liked using Burts, using this atma combined with VV, your automaton will most likely spam it's tp move, or if you have an inhibitor attached, you'll be able to do wonders setting up a mob for major pain). ]]

Let me show you just why sea daughter hurts your damage. Using basic math that anyone with a high school education should be capable of.

Let's just assume a TP set including cirque legs +2 and cirque necklace, that also has capped gear haste (multiple ways to do it, all that matters for this math is that your gear haste is capped). Now, it'll vary a tiny bit based on weapon delay, so I'll do both 61 delay (Taipan+2) and 51 delay (burts/vereth). Assume TP gear includes brutal earring, and warrior sub since we're talking damage output. Not gonna bother with apoc, because I'm just doing baseline math and I don't feel like accounting for Triple attack, note however that apoc would, in this scenario, only further the difference.

Pup90, base h2h delay 340, -20 from gear, +51:
- total delay 371
- TP/hit: 12.5~12.6/round, 6.2-6.3/fist (I don't have any +51 delay weapons on hand to check; if someone knows off the top of their head which it is, since the round tp comes out at 12.55 and tp truncates to the the tenth position, and I can't remember for the life of me what the tp/hit should be here. I'll do both to be safe)
- delay between attack rounds: 6.183 seconds BEFORE HASTE
- Apply 25% Haste: 278.25 delay; 4.6375 seconds between attack rounds
- Apply 10% Haste (with SD): 333.9 delay; 5.565 seconds between attack rounds

Pup90, base h2h delay 340, -20 from gear, +61:
- total delay: 381
- TP/hit: 13/round, 6.5/fist
- delay between attack rounds: 6.35 seconds BEFORE HASTE
- Apply 25% haste; 285.75 delay; 4.7625 seconds between attack rounds,
- Apply 10% haste (with SD): 342.9 delay; 5.715 seconds between attack rounds

Assuming 15% DA rate: TP gain over 5 minutes (300 seconds):
----- 25% haste -----
+51: 64 attack rounds; ~147 punches
- Accounting for 95% acc cap: ~140 successful attacks
- Total TP gained: 868 / 882 (6.2 / 6.3 per hit respectively)
+61: 62 attack rounds; ~142 punches
- Total TP gained: 923
- Accounting for 95% acc cap: ~135 successful attacks
----- 10% haste -----
+51: 53 attack rounds; ~122 punches
- Accounting for 95% acc cap: ~116 successful attacks
- Total TP gained: 719.2 / 730.8 (6.2 / 6.3 per hit respectively)
+61: 52 attack rounds; ~120 punches
- Accounting for 95% acc cap: ~114 successful attacks
- Total TP gained: 741

Atma of the Sea Daughter: TP gain over 5 minutes (300 seconds)
100 regain ticks at 5 tp/tick; total gain 500 TP

In terms of TP, you can effectively round down to the base hundred for this part, because it's related to WS frequency.

+51 with 25% haste: 8 ws in 5 min
+61 with 25% haste: 9 ws in 5 min
+51 with SD: 12 ws in 5 min
+61 with SD: 12 ws in 5 min
Note: This is what I meant in regards to Apoc, +25% haste would likely gain at least one additional WS each, while +10% would not (but honestly I'm completely guesstimating that bit).

So yes, Xioxan is correct that he has a greater WS frequency using Atma of the Sea Daughter. However, note that in both cases, the resulting number of successful attacks with sea daughter is lowered by ~25 for the +51, and ~20 for +61. If you assume a generic RR/SS/GH atma set up, and an average of ~80% crit rate, capped h2h skill/merits for a base 42 damage, and a+29 damage weapon (burts/taipan), 71 dmg. Now, I haven't done crit damage math post abyssea, but I do know that with destroyers' +18 at 75 mnk had a ~186 crit damage cap. It's a lot higher in abyssea. Averaging 200+ damage per crit is relatively easy and common. if you assume 200~250 damage per crit (can be higher/lower depending on skill/gear/atma), you lose about 4000~5000 damage just from your melee damage (2~3 stringing pummels accounting for acc variance, crit variance, and "lol, you suck" variance(yes, I consider this a credible variable; it stands for the likelihood of a ws doing shit damage for no explainable reason)).

Effectively, this loss in melee DoT negates any gain SD's regain would give you. These numbers will not be quite as grand for Sharpshot, since sharpshot's damage is primarily WS, but with valoredge, it should come out to roughly the same, if not even more of a loss, depending on your wind maneuver frequency (you need 2 wind maneuvers active at all times while meleeing to negate the loss of haste from SD). If your delay drops into the negative (ie: higher than base). Also keep in mind that the higher your base delay, the more effect slow will have; valoredge's 360 delay should keep it roughly around the same effect as your own h2h, but sharpshot's 400 delay will take a more noticeable hit.

And yes, I realize that you're also trying to use skill chaining as reason for this SD being good, but you also have to realize that these numbers don't account for two things: 1) how rare it is you actually WS at exactly 100% TP, and 2) how much TP gets wasted between master and puppet during the SC process. it's not difficult to lose 30~50 TP per skill chain, and that excess TP is what will lead to an overall loss in damage output.

tl;dr: Atma of the Sea Daughter sucks for damage output. No exceptions.


See, unlike a lot of folks that profess to be PUP mains... I actually am. So all this is based on my experience, not some random spreadsheet with fudged formulas.

If you don't like what I say, ignore it. But I'm sharing my experiences... I love that key word: Experience^^

PS: I apologize in advance for my uneducated game mechanics... but last time I checked, "Freedom of Speech" was a constitutional right :) You use it, well so can I.

Ok, that's just insulting. I've been pup main since 2006, when aht urgan was released, and it has been both my favorite and most played job over the last 5 years. And yes, freedom of speech is a constitutional right. However, freedom of speech does not prove your statements, nor does it exclude you from the human birthrite, the freedom to be really stupid.

[xiozen]

...MATHEMATICAL PROOF of your findings, and your statement will be valid.

I really appreciate you taking such a vested interest but your example isn't mathematical proof...


Using basic math that anyone with a high school education should be capable of.

Let's just assume a TP set... all that matters for this math is that your gear haste is capped...

Not proof...opinion... assumptions... I'll continue, using your own words...


...it'll vary a tiny bit based on weapon delay... Assume TP gear includes... Not gonna bother with apoc, because I'm just doing baseline math and I don't feel like accounting for Triple attack, note however that apoc would, in this scenario, only further the difference. ...

More assumptions and hypotheticals; these are your words, not mine... I'll continue...


Pup90, base h2h delay 340, -20 from gear, +51: - total delay 371
- TP/hit: 12.5~12.6/round, 6.2-6.3/fist (I don't have any +51 delay weapons on hand to check...

Assuming 15% DA rate:

In terms of TP, you can effectively round down to the base hundred for this part, because it's related to WS frequency.

It's related to ws frequency...so many assumptions to "prove" your point... =/


+51 with 25% haste: 8 ws in 5 min
+61 with 25% haste: 9 ws in 5 min
+51 with SD: 12 ws in 5 min
+61 with SD: 12 ws in 5 min
Note: This is what I meant in regards to Apoc, +25% haste would likely gain at least one additional WS each, while +10% would not (but honestly I'm completely guesstimating that bit).

hmm... "guesstimating?"


So yes, Xioxan is correct that he has a greater WS frequency using Atma of the Sea Daughter. However, note that in both cases, the resulting number of successful attacks with sea daughter is lowered by ~25 for the +51, and ~20 for +61. If you assume a generic RR/SS/GH atma set up, and an average of ~80% crit rate, capped h2h skill/merits for a base 42 damage, and a+29 damage weapon (burts/taipan), 71 dmg. Now, I haven't done crit damage math post abyssea, but I do know that with destroyers' +18 at 75 mnk had a ~186 crit damage cap. It's a lot higher in abyssea. Averaging 200+ damage per crit is relatively easy and common. if you assume 200~250 damage per crit (can be higher/lower depending on skill/gear/atma), you lose about 4000~5000 damage just from your melee damage (2~3 stringing pummels accounting for acc variance, crit variance, and "lol, you suck" variance(yes, I consider this a credible variable; it stands for the likelihood of a ws doing shit damage for no explainable reason)).


Effectively, this loss in melee DoT negates any gain SD's regain would give you. These numbers will not be quite as grand for Sharpshot, since sharpshot's damage is primarily WS, but with valoredge, it should come out to roughly the same, if not even more of a loss, depending on your wind maneuver frequency (you need 2 wind maneuvers active at all times while meleeing to negate the loss of haste from SD). If your delay drops into the negative (ie: higher than base). Also keep in mind that the higher your base delay, the more effect slow will have; valoredge's 360 delay should keep it roughly around the same effect as your own h2h, but sharpshot's 400 delay will take a more noticeable hit.

There's so many assumptions in this, I don't even know where to begin... I get tired just reading it. /sigh


And yes, I realize that you're also trying to use skill chaining as reason for this SD being good, but you also have to realize that these numbers don't account for two things: 1) how rare it is you actually WS at exactly 100% TP, and 2) how much TP gets wasted between master and puppet during the SC process. it's not difficult to lose 30~50 TP per skill chain, and that excess TP is what will lead to an overall loss in damage output.

Again more assumptions; you state it's rare that I WS w/ my automaton; however keep in mind SD gives a decent regain and Darkness skill-chain is reciprocal between Master and Puppet; meaning, I can end the skill chain with Darkness off of my "Valoredge" puppet's string shredder just as readily as my automaton can end the skill chain with Darkness off of my stringing Pummel... Hmm, so the Master using a multi-hit weapon (a dubious one, I might add) Ursine Claws +2 with Double Attack +10, Brutal Earring (more double attack), Twilight Belt (more double attack), (if I wear the Cirque head piece during tp, that's more double attack), Aurore Doublet (more double attack)... For "ME" its far from Rare when I and my puppet can skill chain... Sea Daughter's Slow effect is negligible for me, as I previously pointed out. I cannot speak for other people and their play-style.

As for your final comment, it borders on being semi-offensive; all I'll say is--it's my opinion, that no one on these forums is stupid by any degree. /cheers

[xiozen]

According to your equip history you don't have most of that +2 gear.

I just requeued for update... I have it all. Keep checking/reloading.. it'll update... FFXIAH.com takes some time to update...shouldn't be too long though.

I'm not a liar :)

[Vivik]

I just requeued for update... I have it all. Keep checking/reloading.. it'll update... FFXIAH.com takes some time to update...shouldn't be too long though.

I'm not a liar :)

Thanks for clearing that up. Now can you provide us with some data to backup you SD usage? "Works for me" doesn't work for anyone but you.

[xiozen]

Thanks for clearing that up. Now can you provide us with some data to backup you SD usage? "Works for me" doesn't work for anyone but you.

That I cannot do... I can only speak from my experience; if you require some data in order to help you play the game; I'm not the person to request that from... but from what I've seen lately, there's absolutely no shortage of folks ready and willing to fudge the numbers and make assumptions about the FFXI data, that may work well for you and others looking for such proof and evidence to learn various ways in which to play the job.

I apologize I cannot help you with regards to your request.

[Vivik]

That I cannot do...

Yeah, I kinda figured you couldn't.

[TybudX]

And so another KingFury is born.

edit - So my post is somewhat on topic.
Freedom of speech may be in your constitution, but American civil liberties are not covered by SE's forum guidelines. As you can clearly see from my sig speaking out of turn only goes so far.

[Dfoley]

Xiozen has no concept of math, he is much happier playing his way even if it means is far inferior and the definition of lolpop that people used for years.

I dont even want math/proof/parses, just a simple example.

You claim to have experience and be a pup main (my first job to 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, and 90), so give me an example of what tactical processor enhances. In all your experience surely you can come up with a single, example.

Other wise keep trolling, and I will keep shooting down all the bad information you try to spread as fact.

[SpankWustler]

I really appreciate you taking such a vested interest but your example isn't mathematical proof...

You do realize all things related to other atma which would be replace Sea Daughter were purposefully left out of Theytak's actual equations about gained weapon-skills and lost attack rounds, right? All assumptions are only made in regards to the conclusion, well after the actual math equations.

The conditions used for the equations are totally unrelated to anything other than "this person knows which trousers to wear in a party situation and how not to wear those trousers on his or her face". Also, Theytak is being very kind to Atma of the Sea Daughter by not adding the condition that a White Mage or the like is present to cast Haste.

Feel free to disagree with her conclusion, but the equation is what it is and those numbers are pretty much concrete.

[xiozen]

Xiozen has no concept of math, he is much happier playing his way even if it means is far inferior and the definition of lolpop that people used for years.

I dont even want math/proof/parses, just a simple example.

You claim to have experience and be a pup main (my first job to 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, and 90), so give me an example of what tactical processor enhances. In all your experience surely you can come up with a single, example.

Other wise keep trolling, and I will keep shooting down all the bad information you try to spread as fact.

I never once told you to stop posting... I may not think your information is always on point, but I won't say you are spreading bad information (that becomes judgmental)... take this statement as you will, but information is information... it is up to the person receiving that information and what he/she does with it that determines its usefulness^^

[xiozen]

You do realize all things related to other atma which would be replace Sea Daughter were purposefully left out of Theytak's actual equations about gained weapon-skills and lost attack rounds, right? All assumptions are only made in regards to the conclusion, well after the actual math equations.

The conditions used for the equations are totally unrelated to anything other than "this person knows which trousers to wear in a party situation and how not to wear those trousers on his or her face". Also, Theytak is being very kind to Atma of the Sea Daughter by not adding the condition that a White Mage or the like is present to cast Haste.

Feel free to disagree with her conclusion, but the equation is what it is and those numbers are pretty much concrete.

Spoken like a true follower of the cause^^ /applaud

[SpankWustler]

Spoken like a true follower of the cause^^ /applaud

It's fine if you disagree with me, and I understand your attitude given the number of overt personal attacks in this thread, but I have this funny feeling that you didn't even bother reading my post.

So, I'll summarize. All of the assumptions to which you object come after the equation for Sea Daughter's effects. Trading 20~25 attacks for 3~4 weapon-skills over the course of five minutes is what it is. The only condition for these numbers is that you have a decent TP set.

[Insaniac]

Its actually quite worse then just 15% less damage.

When you factor in that its 'gear' haste, and that it slows your pet as well your looking at base line 30% less damage. And no ammount of epeen ws will compensate for that.
Actually it's EVEN worse than that. The benefit of haste isn't linear so depending on how much haste you have 15% slow is probably translating into around a 45-50% decrease in DPS not even including the puppet. Using no atma at all would be better than using sea daughter.

[Jar]

this troll really lasted this many pages?

[Jar]

SD 15% slow is only a massive contender to DoT when you have other melee speed augments to consider(haste magic songs Slow magic songs**) adding EITHER reduces the over all gain of the Regain atma(SD) while higher values of haste increese the Triple attack atma in that same why it boosts your attack speed.

Meaning that you gain TP about the same with SD Vs. Apoc AT LOW HASTE but if you have ANYTHING OTHER THAN GEAR AUGMENTING ATTACK SPEED SD will give diminishing returns while apoc will Scale with haste. also this is just TP gain rate at all times Apoc will deal more damage because it adds hits while SD takes away hits******


as for tactical P and the other animators Se stated that it speeds up the refresh rate between client and server on automaton decisions This would mean that if the automatons base scan rate is low this would be nice but from years of testing this is NOT the case the automaton scans enough that TacticalP does almost NOTHING.

NO ANIMATOR TESTING HAS PROVEN THAT ANY ANIMATOR IS BETTER THAN ANY OTHER ANIMATOR APART FROM HIDDEN EFFECTS.

and i think that was it?

oh wait and i laughed at the part someone stated American Rights on an INTERNATIONAL ENGLISH FORUM(yeah other places speak English)

[xbobx]

Can I lock the thread somehow?

[Jar]

Can I lock the thread somehow?
not anymore they removed that option.

[Dfoley]

I finally figured out what this reminds me of.

A scientist arguing evolution with a devout religious person.



Scientist presents indisputable facts/equations/proof.
Religious zealot argues its not fact, just manipulated assumptions to fit a hypothesis
Scientist rips his hair out trying to explain something way too complex.
Religious zealot smiles with a troll-face because they know the scientist is right and they cant win a logical argument so they make fake logic.
Scientist makes troll face.

Lets be honest, its his way of playing, and no matter how many people give evidence, facts, examples of how its not the best way to DD and in fact there are other, far superior options, he will just say that we are being brain washed by logic and reason and for some reason he is the only one to see the truth.

[Pyrobunny]

VV SS RR my dmg is on par with empy weapons users
and thats not encluding AS from my auto

[Urteil]

Proof? Let me give you the definition of proof: evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth

You profess to state that the kinematic's/Motenten's spreadsheet is sufficient proof to base your opinions off of... and that's ok... for you. It seems that you'd prefer to use someone else's opinion (is the developer of the kinematics spreadsheet) a prior SE developer of the FFXI game? In order for me to use someone elses' formulas and calculations (who knows where the raw data originated from... ) Its so easy to "hmm tweak this and tweak that..." to make it fit an equation in excel it's not even funny--and to have people blindly follow along assuming the information is correct, this is based off of their own lack of knowledge...

I can only assume the blind leading the blind, because, ta da...we're not developers of this game, merely players...that can, at most, use what has been provided to use and try to determine how best it fits our gaming needs.

So please, spare me to...link to said spreadsheet to prove anything... its a waste of time. I prefer to "try things out on my own and experience them first hand" to base my opinion on what works and what does not work...then I share those "experiences" (key word) with others.

People like you will spend an eternity asking why, only to find out out the real question should have been how.

[Darkvalkyr]

The rare times I get to go PUP over DNC or BLU are when I'm fighting NMs or mobs that I don't care about the outcome.

So I go Sea Daughter/VV/RR.

I laugh as me and my Auto just thrash out WSes. Yes I know DPS sucks, yes I know Haste is king, etc. etc. I don't care - because if I was actually thinking what might be efficient/useful in the rare times I go as PUP...I won't be on PUP anyway.

[Darkvalkyr]

Probably really stupid? I'm not trolling because unlike someone I know that my Sea Daughter kills my DPS.

If my LS lets me come PUP for random fun over BLu and DNC which meets more of the LSes needs than PUP, I don't care what the hell I do. So yes, I use Sea Daughter, VV and RR and just laugh while we spam Armor Shatterer and Stringing Pummel for mass Ruby kills.

[hiko]

I know what make SD better than anyother atma: time spent not engaged

[Dfoley]

On trash exp mobs maybe, and thats only if you have a slow puller that is letting just 1 mob get to camp at a time and then your waiting 10-15 seconds for the next.

When I run exp, I (or the thf) pull 10 mobs at a time and that 15% slow and regain just dont look as nice to me for killing them faster.

[Theytak]

I really appreciate you taking such a vested interest but your example isn't mathematical proof...
I'll assume this was only directed at what it followed, and not the rest of my post. I agree that for that particular circumstance, I did not provide mathematical proof. The reason for this is simple. The math has already been done 50+ times and always comes out the same. The results of this math are what I stated in my reply. If you don't believe me... I'll use your retort: Go find the testing yourself because I can't be bothered to show it to you. (sounds a little... um... wishywashy, doesn't it.)


Not proof...opinion... assumptions... I'll continue, using your own words...

This "assumption" is an "assumption" of case. All it "assumes" is that the generic puppetmaster involved in my math is, in fact, wearing a standard TP set, as opposed to, say, a WS set, an evasion set, or some other type of gear set. This is an "assumption" in terminology only. The term "assume", as it is applied here, means "For this particular variable, in this particular equation, we will use the definition 'TP gear set'" and nothing more.


More assumptions and hypotheticals; these are your words, not mine... I'll continue...

Variations are a standard occurrence with math, especially FFXI related math, due to SE's love of randomly changing where numbers round off. My "assumption" of the TP set I defined as the variable previously is, again, serving only to further define the variable in question. It is used as opposed to say, a TP set that does not reach the 25% gear-haste cap. In regards to the triple attack comment, I won't deny that that was an assumption in the definition of an educated guess based on knowledge of game mechanics. If you want me to further strengthen my point, though, I'll crunch the numbers and show you exactly how much more incorrect you can be.


It's related to ws frequency...so many assumptions to "prove" your point... =/

"Assuming" 15% double attack coming from /war's +10% double attack, and Brutal Earring's +5% double attack. Assuming 15% double attack as opposed to assuming 5/10/20/32/9/13/whatever % double attack. 15% is a standard amount of double attack for a pup TP build. Thus, I made the "assumption" in line with my previous "assumption" of the gear the unnamed pup was wearing.

For the assumption that it's safe to round down to base hundreds, are you telling me that, as a pup/war in a melee scenario, you're going to be using that TP for something other than weapon skills? I mean, it's not like weapon skills require a minimum of 100 TP... oh wait, they do. My assumptions of scenario do nothing to discredit the math that you failed to respond to.


hmm... "guesstimating?"

Again, this is related to my choice to not use atma of the apocalypse, and thus give atma of the sea daughter the benefit of the doubt. This was obviously an assumption and in no way related to the proof provided by the math that you completely disregarded.


There's so many assumptions in this, I don't even know where to begin... I get tired just reading it. /sigh

Those "assumptions" were generic averages based on my experiences in abyssea on pup and mnk using h2h weapons. Also, the atma assumption was based on the original topic of this thread, and was chosen as a set of meleeing atma. The final bit, the "lol, you suck" variable, is partially just a joke, but also partially refers to the low, but still possible, likelihood of various issues that arise from the fact thinks like accuracy and critical hit rate won't be capped at 100% efficiency. This means that you WILL ALWAYS MISS AT LEAST 5% of the time over the course of any significant amount of time. There is absolutely no exception to this rule, because your accuracy can never exceed 95%. Of course, that length of time is related to the final issue covered by this variable, the random number generators used in damage calculation and hit success. It is entirely possible to land 10,000 out of 10,000 consecutive hits even with a guaranteed 5% miss rate, though it is also unlikely. Similarly, it is entirely possible that you will miss all 10,000 consecutive hits even with a guaranteed 95% success rate, due to the random number generators just not liking you (though, the chance of this is so tiny that no one's ever had it happen, it is still a variable that needs to be accounted for somewhere).


Again more assumptions; you state it's rare that I WS w/ my automaton; however keep in mind SD gives a decent regain and Darkness skill-chain is reciprocal between Master and Puppet; meaning, I can end the skill chain with Darkness off of my "Valoredge" puppet's string shredder just as readily as my automaton can end the skill chain with Darkness off of my stringing Pummel... Hmm, so the Master using a multi-hit weapon (a dubious one, I might add) Ursine Claws +2 with Double Attack +10, Brutal Earring (more double attack), Twilight Belt (more double attack), (if I wear the Cirque head piece during tp, that's more double attack), Aurore Doublet (more double attack)... For "ME" its far from Rare when I and my puppet can skill chain... Sea Daughter's Slow effect is negligible for me, as I previously pointed out. I cannot speak for other people and their play-style.

You misread/misunderstood my statement. I said that is rare that you and your automaton both execute your WSs in perfect timing with perfect synchronization and that both of your TP%s are at exactly 100% at the time of your WS, meaning that there is absolutely no wasted TP whatsoever; it is rare that this happens once. It's completely impossible for it to happen multiple times in succession, due primarily to regain/tp hit not stacking to whole number amounts, and also due to random monster hits/aoe attacks hitting you and giving you extra TP.


As for your final comment, it borders on being semi-offensive; all I'll say is--it's my opinion, that no one on these forums is stupid by any degree. /cheers


See, unlike a lot of folks that profess to be PUP mains... I actually am. So all this is based on my experience, not some random spreadsheet with fudged formulas. you imply that you are a PUP main, but other individuals who state they are pup mains (like myself, dfoley, and others), are not. That's a blatant slap in the face. You also imply that the math that has been linked to you for you to read and understand (for your own benefit) is nothing more than "random spreadsheets with fudged formulas". The numbers and data used for these "random" spreadsheets are, in fact, acquired through hours and hours of mind numbing testing in game, using pup in various scenarios and with various pieces of gear. The formulas are in no way, shape, or form, fudged. They are the same formulas discovered through said hours of mind numbing testing in game. The formulas accuracy is guaranteed, so long as the person using the formula is using accurate data, and has enough understanding of basic math to know Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally (read: like, a 12 year old).


If you don't like what I say, ignore it. But I'm sharing my experiences... I love that key word: Experience^^You imply here that those of us who disagree with you are lacking in experience. That's a blatant insult towards our experience in game and as puppetmasters. You even add a condescending smiley face. And you're not sharing your experiences. You're stating your opinions based on your own biased ideas how you wish "stuff" worked, in spite of the fact that said "stuff" -

NOTE: Stuff is used here as a catch all term. Since you're incapable of understanding context and simple english, it's meaning in this context includes, but is not limited too; the function of tactical processor, the function and benefits provided by the four types of animators, the function of haste/slow and how they relate to over all damage output, and the usage of the word "assume" as it relates to mathematics.

- does not work in the way you have convinced yourself it does.


PS: I apologize in advance for my uneducated game mechanics... but last time I checked, "Freedom of Speech" was a constitutional right You use it, well so can I.

Here, you openly state that you do not understand game mechanics. You also, as mentioned, use the "Freedom of Speech" guaranteed to you by the US constitution as a viable defense. However, your "freedom of speech" does not apply to these forums. You are NOT free to say anything you want with no limits in the way the constitution allows, because this forum is NOT the united states of america. This forum is a gaming forum that has its own set of rules, and is based out of a completely different country (Japan). Assuming (lol) that your constitutional right to free speech applies everywhere on the internet is both ignorant (read: ignorant does not mean stupid. Ignorance is a state of unknowing, or lack of knowledge. nothing more.) and silly. For further support of this, allow me to provide you with the definition of your (our) Freedom of Speech:

"The free communication of ideas and opinions is one of the most precious of the rights of man. Every citizen may, accordingly, speak, write, and print with freedom, but shall be responsible for such abuses of this freedom as shall be defined by law."

This applies only within the borders of the united states, or areas where the US is sovereign, such as military bases. The united states holds no sovereignty over this forum, thus you have no freedom of speech.

Now, if you were more well informed, you would have at least attempted to use the Freedom of Speech right that does have some say here, provided by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (read: not constitutional). This right is an international right, and as far as I know, Japan does follow it.

Now, just because I have nothing more constructive to do, I'm going to use YOUR tp set and I'm going to go and REDO ALL OF MY ALREADY CORRECT math. I will keep my next post in a pure mathematical form, and it will be sure to define EVERY LAST VARIABLE USING SIMPLE WORDS SO THAT THE MEANING IS ABSOLUTELY CLEAR AND CANNOT BE MISCONSTRUED FOR THE SAKE OF SOME STUPID ARGUMENT OF SEMANTICS.

In regards to this: Xioxen, please provide me with all of the following variables that you do not want me to assume as something else:

- your Stringing Pummel WS set
- your base str, dex, and vit as PUP90/WAR45
- your base str, dex, and vit as PUP90/NIN45
- The attachments you use when using Valoredge
- The maneuvers you cycle when using Valoredge, as well as how frequently you cycle them (down to the second, if possible. Please do not make any guesstimation or assumption, I need the exact average number of seconds between each maneuver)
- Your valoredge's current Automaton Melee Skill, if it is not capped.
- The attachments you use when using sharpshot
- The maneuvers you cycle when using sharpshot, as well as how frequently you cycle them
- Your sharpshot's current Automaton Ranged Skill, if it is not capped.
- Your current number of Hand-to-Hand skill merits, if any
- Your current number of Critical hit rate merits, if any
- Your current number of Automaton Melee Skill merits, if any
- Your current number of Automaton Ranged Skill merits, if any
- Your current number of Optimization merits, if any
- Your current number of Fine-Tuning merits, if any
- Your current number of STR merits, if any
- Your current number of DEX merits, if any
- Your current number of VIT merits, if any
- The typical party set up you are in when you are meleeing on pup as pup/war
- The typical party set up you are in when you are meleeing on pup as pup/nin
- The gear sets, skill levels, and merits of each party member, related to melee DD, Enhancing magic, or Enfeebling magic. I am safe to assume you can infer which data I need depending on the player's job choice, correct? I don't need any melee jobs' enhancing magic information.
- The number of Abyssite of Furtherance possessed by you and any other party member who will be meleeing.
- The Jobs, WS, Job abilities, and offensive spells (damaging, enfeebling, or enhancing) used by any party member who is meleeing
- The Area in which this scenario occurs
- The type of monsters you are fighting
- The level of the monsters you are fighting
- The frequency at which you, and any other meleeing party members, are not engaged in combat, as well as the exact amount of time, over the course of 30 minutes
- The exact amount of TP at which you execute your skill chain with your puppet; both how much TP you have at the time you WS, and how much TP your puppet has when it ws's. Please either provide me with an exact list of numbers, or an average. I will not accept 100 tp for either player or puppet, because there is a 100% certainty that you will not average 100 TP, unless both you and your puppet successfully WS at exactly 100 TP every time you are able too over the course of 30 minutes, based on the delay of your chosen weapons, your attack frequency, and the amount of store TP you possess.

All of these are normally assumed to be something stated ahead of time in a given mathematical proof, and can thus be negated and ignored. However, since you don't want me to "assume" anything, I will need you to provide me with all of this data, so that I can be 100% certain that none of it matters.

[Jar]

^ That book needs a title ^

[Dfoley]

Sadly theytak (jinte) you will never get any information out of xiozen. I have been trying for months to get an example of the difference in animators/what tactical processor does.

The best xiozen has ever done was "try it yourself, you'll see, and if you dont, your not a career pup lol"

I am starting to question my initial opinion that he isn't a troll, just because I find it harder and harder to believe someone can be that ignorant when its not blatantly intentional.

Math isnt proof, its opinion? O really? Yet personal opinion is apparently fact because someone observed something no one could parse or replicate?

[Kristal]

I finally figured out what this reminds me of.

A scientist arguing evolution with a devout religious person.



Scientist presents indisputable facts/equations/proof.
Religious zealot argues its not fact, just manipulated assumptions to fit a hypothesis
Scientist rips his hair out trying to explain something way too complex.
Religious zealot smiles with a troll-face because they know the scientist is right and they cant win a logical argument so they make fake logic.
Scientist makes troll face.


This is why scientists don't debate with creationists in the first place.


Oh, and I've seen it a few times in this discussion, but slow is not cumulative when the atma effects both master and pet. 15% slow is not a 30% DPS reduction just because it affects both master and pet. (It might equate to 30% after all other effects are taken into consideration, but that would be a coincidence.)

[Dfoley]

This is why scientists don't debate with creationists in the first place.


Oh, and I've seen it a few times in this discussion, but slow is not cumulative when the atma effects both master and pet. 15% slow is not a 30% DPS reduction just because it affects both master and pet. (It might equate to 30% after all other effects are taken into consideration, but that would be a coincidence.)

Well for 1 they do argue it. At my university, every year for the last 20 years they have invited religious people and had top biology/genetic/biochem professor to come and play devils advocate. It is quite entertaining.

And i like how people keep quoting my 30% and saying it is 30, it isnt 30, its more then 30, its less then 30. Bottom line is you and your pet are each do 15% less attacks, so its probably closer to a 25% total loss in dps since pet DD is only about 30-40% of our total. However the point was that its more then a 15% loss.

[Kristal]

Well for 1 they do argue it. At my university, every year for the last 20 years they have invited religious people and had top biology/genetic/biochem professor to come and play devils advocate. It is quite entertaining.
Oh, they make recordings of that and put them on youtube? Sounds like fun :D
I was actually thinking of 'debates' where a 'scientist' (usually some low level school teacher) gets invited to defend evolution in front of a herd of sheeple, with a smooth-talking creationist saying things that only make sense for the uneducated. (Like blatantly ignoring overwhelming evidence because it's not written in the bible.)


And i like how people keep quoting my 30% and saying it is 30, it isnt 30, its more then 30, its less then 30. Bottom line is you and your pet are each do 15% less attacks, so its probably closer to a 25% total loss in dps since pet DD is only about 30-40% of our total. However the point was that its more then a 15% loss.

The exact number isn't important, it's adding together that doesn't work.

No matter how many sources the damage is divided between, or in what distribution, if all sources deal 10% less damage, the overall damage is 10% less too.

[Dfoley]

We do record them I am not sure if they end up on youtube or just our local biochemsitry website, but I know I watched 2-3 years of videos when I was a senior (30-45 minutes long, and pretty much the same arguments every year). Typically we have a panel of 1-3 scientists, and 1-3 creationists. The creationists is typically 1-2 religous figures and 1-2 professors playing devils advocate.

I see your point about the % dps change though and you are correct with that definition. I was just trying to say, its more than just a 15% drop for the master, because the pet is includeded as well, and you are right that it is a total dps drop of 15%.

[Rafien]

Wow did xiozen just get destroyed! I must say, I know this is 100% not on topic but, that was just .. GREAT.

[Kysaiana]

Wow. This thread was derailed and then the derail was further derailed. Having used both VV/AoA/RR and SS/AoA/RR atmas on PUP on separate occasions, I didn't really notice a difference between the two. At least as far as WS damage is concerned. I believe SS has the potential to do more WS damage depending on your crit rate, as well as up your DoT with stronger critical hits. However, I like the regain on VV and since STR is a mod for Stringing Pummel and Victory Smite, I'd personally stick with VV.

[Zhronne]

With all the mess that happened I forgot to post my (unwanted?) opinion -.-
Trying to get back in topic now, some time ago I calculated 3 different possible combinations for the third atma.
Of course RR and Apoc aren't in discussion.
For the third I calculated the overall damage with:

1) Voracious Violet
2) Gnarled Horn
3) Sanguine Scythe


I didn't factor my automaton at all on these calculations, which was probably a big mistake D:
I also split those calculations in two, first considering Stringing Pummel as the main WS, then with Victory Smite.
Of course these results are somehow bound to my personal equipment at the time and other close combinations. Anyway I found out the following:

With a close to unbuffed character (no haste, no march, no food, no berserk up etc) VV produces slightly better results than the other two. It also has to be noted that VV produces other advantages that are hard to factor inside formulae. For example the utility of the 2tp/tic regain during times when you are not fighting. It may sound stupid, but you won't be constantly engaged 100% of the times. It's also an added utility if you want to hold back and proc stuff for some reason.
GH offers a nice + crit rate % which is always useful since we won't be capped. The AGI won't do much (probably capped on AGI eva with just cruor buffs, and no primary/secondary mod on any WS). The +counter is nice but without native counter (like MNK) it doesn't become a particularly interesting edge. It also has to be noted that if you're using Sharpshoot, ranged attacks won't benefit from the +crit, but they would benefit from AGI (r.acc, and also it's also supposed to be the primary modifier for Armor Shatterer). Similarly, the +counter could be useful for Valoredge if you use Galvanizer for some reason. From all of this it sounds that GH is a nice option, but slightly behind the other two, wether you're using Pummel or Smite, wether your character is fully buffed or fully unbuffed.
SS offers the utility of more HP for both you and your pet (which doesn't benefit from cruor buffs). Doesn't directly affect your damage but personally it's a stat I really like, especially for my pet (altough since when they added Deus Ex Machina, Automaton survivability became much less of an issue than it was before). Damage-wise it seems to affect your overall dps more than VV when you start getting some buffs (Zerk, food, etc), it's behind VV when you're completely unbuffed, but with a small difference.


Of course as a choice for third atma I didn't consider "Atma of Alpha & Omega" which, in theory, is better than any of the above under any possible circumstance. But I don't really like the -HP so I usually skip considering A&O.


tl;dr
Buffed: SS > VV > GH
Unbuffed: VV > SS > GH
Same thing for either Pummel and Smite.

SS probably wins when you're buffed (with an increasing margin the more you're buffed) because, correct me if I'm wrong, it's not a static damage increase but a % one. Hence the more your basic damage is (increased by buffs) the higher return the % gives.
Also as you get close to the attack cap the +25 you get from VV loses its relevance.

[xbobx]

Thank you, good job.

[Zhronne]

I'm glad you apreciated the wall o' text! xD
I claim no absolute accuracy btw, just wanted to share my little research that I did for myself some time ago :)

[Dfoley]

Just to clarify a few things.

1) AGI has nothing to do with armor shatter.
2) SS increases crit dmg by a %, correct, however no buffs affect cirt dmg and it is a linear stat. A super simple example is this: Hit for 150, crit for 300 (+0% crit dmg, 150 dmg added from crit), crit for 450 (+100% crit dmg, 300 dmg added for cirt). Im sure someone will correct me on the math there but it really is linear.

3) 5th post in the thread (from me) also had this same result from kinematics spread sheet. These were total dps numbers based on my gear/food/weapon/sub job etc

ss/rr/apoc : 273
vv/rr/apoc : 269
gh/rr/apoc : 266

Although it was interesting to see that SP ranks higher than VS for PUPS, which im willing to bet isnt true, but ill have to parse it to be sure.

[Zhronne]

I've had some very strange results with the SS vs VS thing, both on Motenten's spreadsheet and in-game parses.
Numbers seems so odd I have issues in understanding which WS is potentially better, altough of course VS becomes no "option" when you have Verethragna (for the Aftermath).

I still think that while VS and SP are close to each other, VS has more potential. For example the higher fTP base mod is gonna make a difference on certain mobs outside of abyssea.
While inside, VS has a bigger potential gain from Triple Attack. With SP you reach the max number of hits with a single TA proc.
With VS you can get up to two, which is the maximum possible amount per WS.
Unless I missed something?
So in theory you shouldn't be able to see 2x TA procs during Stringing Pummel, while that's possible with Victory Smite, leading to higher spikes.

Just my personal feelings at the moment btw. I'd love to read more impressions from other people!

[Zhronne]

2) SS increases crit dmg by a %, correct, however no buffs affect cirt dmg and it is a linear stat. A super simple example is this: Hit for 150, crit for 300 (+0% crit dmg, 150 dmg added from crit), crit for 450 (+100% crit dmg, 300 dmg added for cirt). Im sure someone will correct me on the math there but it really is linear.
Yes, I asked for corrections and I think I specified the word "probably" a few times because I wasn't sure. I'm well aware of my huge math ignorance, despite my age.
Would you mind clarifying this a bit more for me? I'll try to reformulate what I wanted to write before (which is possibly wrong!)
I know it's not like this, but let's pretend for a second that VV adds a static amount of damage, and let's pretend this amount is +50. It's gonna stay +50 wether your base fists do 150 damage or 200 or 400, it's always gonna be +50 (I know factoring VV is more complicated because of DA etc, but I'm just trying to make up an example)
SS instead doesn't add a fixed amount, even if it's still linear, it "scales" with your base damage.
If your base fist does 150 damage your crits with SS will do 345, which is 45 more damage. Hence at this stage SS adds +45.
But if you have several buffs on yourself, let's say your basic fists do 200 damage. Your crits will SS will now do 460. Hence at this stage SS gives you +60 damage and not +45 like before.


tl;dr
I noticed how on my totally unbuffed character, VV was producing slightly higher results than SS. I also noticed how things were going the other way around as I was adding some buffs, and the more I added the more this difference increased.
I wondered why, and the explanation I hypothized was that SS is a % increase, not a fixed, and hence this % scales with your base damage, which is increased by buffs. So one could say that SS is affected by buffs, whereas the bonuses provided by VV aren't or are less noticeably than SS's.
Is this hypothesys completely wrong?



3) 5th post in the thread (from me) also had this same result from kinematics spread sheet. These were total dps numbers based on my gear/food/weapon/sub job etc
Yep I saw that and forgot to agree while I got carried away by the xiaozen thing.
I just wanted to add my personal calculation and talking about how VV can in some circumstances be slightly better than SS (the difference was very small, truth be said).
And also wanted to add how damage-wise RR/Apoc/A&O is even better, but I don't like it because of the -HP%.

I personally just use SS/RR/Apoc all the times and that ended my indecision :D

[Theytak]

^ That book needs a title ^

You should see what happens when I actually get angry at someone, and I'm not held back by a 10,000 character cap. By the way, for those who didn't know, this forum has a 10,000 character limit on posts. :p


This is why scientists don't debate with creationists in the first place.

No, the scientists that don't debate with creationists are the ones with no patience, or the ones who got bored of it. Most scientists I know enjoy debating with creationists for the same reason I enjoy playing with trolls. Attempting to win an unwinnable argument is good mental exercise. You know going in that there's no way your opponent will ever agree or submit to your point, but you try and convince them anyway because it's easy theory-defense practice, and after you get good at it, it's a lot of fun to completely shut them down and force them to admit defeat.


Although it was interesting to see that SP ranks higher than VS for PUPS, which im willing to bet isnt true, but ill have to parse it to be sure.

I can believe it. Yea, VS has better fTP/mods, but SP does have the advantage of two extra hits that can crit. It would probably depend heavily on how good your SP build is, since SP is a bit tougher to build for than VS due to it's secondary VIT mod, and pup's lack of VIT gear, but I could see SP and VS keeping up with each other under optimal settings. Now, if SP was coming from level 90 Kenkonken - provided the apparent damage boost level 90 mythics give their WS - I could honestly see SP beating out VS.

This is, of course, totally ignoring Aftermath, and is complete guestimation. It's not likely that SP could beat VS under normal circumstances, but I wouldn't rule it out as impossible.

[Zhronne]

I can believe it. Yea, VS has better fTP/mods, but SP does have the advantage of two extra hits that can crit. It would probably depend heavily on how good your SP build is, since SP is a bit tougher to build for than VS due to it's secondary VIT mod, and pup's lack of VIT gear, but I could see SP and VS keeping up with each other under optimal settings. Now, if SP was coming from level 90 Kenkonken - provided the apparent damage boost level 90 mythics give their WS - I could honestly see SP beating out VS.

This is, of course, totally ignoring Aftermath, and is complete guestimation. It's not likely that SP could beat VS under normal circumstances, but I wouldn't rule it out as impossible.
I'd love a separate thread just on SP vs VS comparison!
Anyway, my experience is that judging from the spreadsheet Stringing Pummel should always pull out numbers higher than Victory Smite, yet in-game (at least by eyeballing, never thoroughfully parsed) VS damage seems always more consistant than SP's, altough occasionally SP does more.

In the end I tend to use up VS for the Aftermath, but still this thing always puzzled me. More feedback from other users?


As for Kenkonken, I have no doubt that with a 15% damage boost to the WS (level 90 mythic) Stringing Pummel would outdamage Victory Smite, even before taking into consideration the Aftermath.

[Theytak]

I'd love a separate thread just on SP vs VS comparison!
Anyway, my experience is that judging from the spreadsheet Stringing Pummel should always pull out numbers higher than Victory Smite, yet in-game (at least by eyeballing, never thoroughfully parsed) VS damage seems always more consistant than SP's, altough occasionally SP does more.

In the end I tend to use up VS for the Aftermath, but still this thing always puzzled me. More feedback from other users?


As for Kenkonken, I have no doubt that with a 15% damage boost to the WS (level 90 mythic) Stringing Pummel would outdamage Victory Smite, even before taking into consideration the Aftermath.

VS will always be more consistent due to its lower hit-count, while SP will always have the higher maximum. This is due to the fact that varied fTP only applies to the first hit, and each hit after that is 1.0 fTP regardless of TP. Essentially, Victory Smite is 2.25 fTP -> 1.0 fTP -> 1.0 fTP -> 1.0 fTP, while Stringing Pummel is 0.75 fTP -> 1.0 fTP -> 1.0 fTP -> 1.0 fTP -> 1.0 fTP -> 1.0 fTP; if you add the fTP values and compare them, VS is 5.25 while SP is 5.75. Any double/triple attack proc will add +1.0 per added hit, so even at 8 hits (2 triple attack procs on VS, 2 double attack or 1 triple attack proc on SP), there's still a net .5 fTP difference. VS's higher STR mod and lower number of hits to achieve the base max (ignoring DA/TA) damage is why it will be more consistent, but because SP has two additional guaranteed hits, it has more chances to proc critical hits and thus should average slighty higher damage over all. Once you throw in the kenkonken bonus it just gets silly.

[Zhronne]

Didn't think about the ftp mod to the first hit only, definitely makes sense now :) I still have SP macroed but since I have Vere I'm still gonna use Vsmite I think.

[xbobx]

Doesn't it depend on what puppet you use? sure do VS for aftermath , but if you using VE you would to use SP for the 3k + extra dark damage. I like VE over SS, easier to be lazy. I know I know bad pup.

[Theytak]

Didn't think about the ftp mod to the first hit only, definitely makes sense now :) I still have SP macroed but since I have Vere I'm still gonna use Vsmite I think.

tbh, I'd suggest you try parsing these scenarios:
- Using VS only
- Using SP only
- Using VS to trigger/sustain Aftermath, and using SP while aftermath is active

my guess is that the third will win.

[esoR]

Doesn't it depend on what puppet you use? sure do VS for aftermath , but if you using VE you would to use SP for the 3k + extra dark damage. I like VE over SS, easier to be lazy. I know I know bad pup.

if using VE, with its fast tp gain you could use tactical switch often and do VS> VS for an extra self light, which would arguably be stronger than the puppets ws. often when going all out (not wasting tp overflow) i end up not matching timing with string shredder, so the skillchain effect is rare.

on the subject of VS versus SP, my conclusion is VS will often win by about 10-20% in most situations (this could be related to accuracy).
VS 60% str 5.25-9.25/ SP 30%str 30% vit 5.75-7.75
i support theytak's previous post on the subject, though im more inclined to believe pummel is more consistent where VS has the higher cap. comparing to KKK, with 15% dmg increase, you also have the mythic aftermath, which should bring both vere/KKK in line at 95. (ODD vs Oa 2-3)

[Jar]

if using VE, with its fast tp gain you could use tactical switch often and do VS> VS for an extra self light, which would arguably be stronger than the puppets ws. often when going all out (not wasting tp overflow) i end up not matching timing with string shredder, so the skillchain effect is rare.

on the subject of VS versus SP, my conclusion is VS will often win by about 10-20% in most situations (this could be related to accuracy).
VS 60% str 5.25-9.25/ SP 30%str 30% vit 5.75-7.75
i support theytak's previous post on the subject, though im more inclined to believe pummel is more consistent where VS has the higher cap. comparing to KKK, with 15% dmg increase, you also have the mythic aftermath, which should bring both vere/KKK in line at 95. (ODD vs Oa 2-3)


Armor shatterer -> Vsmite is light and will win all the time(because of the DEF down Armor Shatterer gives) if you can get your timing down also works the other way outside of abyssea when you pet is WAYYYYYY stronger than you.

[Zhronne]

Does skillchain damage matter that much to you people? Sure it's awesome and I'm not denying it, but it's just something I don't really get many chances to use... most of the times I use Vsmite (or Spummel) my target dies with a consequent ruby light... don't really get the chance to SC with my puppet this way :(

[esoR]

if your puppet is stronger than you (VE) outside abyss, in its current state. you're doing something wrong. ws wise, it might rarely spike dmg to be equal to pummel (depending o the target) that being said,i often will ws 2x before my puppet hits 100 and decides to ws. i'd rather not wait for when my puppet decides to ws, to SC. its more of a bonus if/when it does happen.

if you're trying to wait on SC's you're probably waisting potential dmg and lowering you're overall DoT, to gain some extra spike dmg. that might be positive on small things, but in a prolonged fight, it's just going to slow you down. (hypothetical fight where you A: actually come pup or B: actually melee)

[Zhronne]

I never said my puppet is stronger than me or that I'm "wasting potential dmg" by waiting etc D:
Unless I gave that impression? Or maybe you were replying to someone else?

[xbobx]

Well in abyessa when you are doing 3000 extra dmg, then yes skillchain damage is good. I find mine tp gain and VE are very close, I may sit on 10 to 20 tp at most before it Ws.

Many times I sit back waiting for trigger and go in while our tp is gaining with VV then do 8 to 9k dmg, so yes skillchain dmg is good.

outside of abyessa doing VS to AS could give you 6k dmg, I don't think any job can match that , considering how often we can do that. So again, yes skillchain dmg does matter these days.

[Zhronne]

Hmm maybe I got fooled by my knowledge of the english language but I wasn't trying to say "self skillchain is useless" or "skillchain damage isn't good enough".
With my "does skillchain really matter that much to you people?" I meant something different. For instance that I hardly ever get a chance to perform it, since I usually oneshot (or close to that) the targets on which I use my WS, hence giving me no chance to perform a skillchain.

[esoR]

^ (replying to jar's reply)

in response to zhonne~ on normal mobs, my ws also tend to deal 80-90% of a mobs hp each time. usualy its a waste to let the puppet ws after that (in or outside)

average random lvl 70ish monster has say, 4500-5k hp. pummel will do up to 3k, SS will do 2.5k , if on the same monster, if both go off, i'm possibly wasting 1.5k at best, which could go to the next target. in these situations, yes its fun to 1 shot monsters with skillchains. however, i was referring to nm fights, which is where damage lost/gained counts.

if i want to skillchain with my puppet, 9 times out of 10 i'll have to retrieve my puppet after it gets tp, then deploy it again when i'm about to hit 100, not to mention the maneuvers required to make sure it does the correct ws for decent dmg. This opposed too letting the puppet run wild with (1 ws maneuver 2 haste) and only sc'ing by random chance.

generally on fights like that, i feel the risk of holding back for a SC is greater than the reward

[Zhronne]

Yeah I concur, sometimes it's just like that.
On targets with enough HP it's a totally different thing and it makes me feel so powerful to pull off those insane SCs ^^ but in most other situations it's usually just wasted damage and the SC doesn't even go off because the target dies too soon D:

[xbobx]

True, usually I am fighting +2 or emp item nms when I do that. Usually what I will do is if I see puppet close to tp I will put up thunder and fire, leave him on the mob I am fighting and target a secondary mob to use my TP on.

[Jar]

if your puppet is stronger than you (VE) outside abyss, in its current state. you're doing something wrong. ws wise, it might rarely spike dmg to be equal to pummel (depending o the target) that being said,i often will ws 2x before my puppet hits 100 and decides to ws. i'd rather not wait for when my puppet decides to ws, to SC. its more of a bonus if/when it does happen.

if you're trying to wait on SC's you're probably waisting potential dmg and lowering you're overall DoT, to gain some extra spike dmg. that might be positive on small things, but in a prolonged fight, it's just going to slow you down. (hypothetical fight where you A: actually come pup or B: actually melee)

You are quite special to think the VE frame gets armor shatterer

also even if you get TP faster than your pet you can attach the INHIBITOR (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Inhibitor) attachment to make your pet SC will you

[esoR]

meant to say string shredder, you were the one who suggested AS, which would imply valorshot or SS. bringing up a different situation, calling survivability and tp gain rate into question. which, that frames tp rate is even slower.. putting the master further ahead. if you're implying AS is stronger than pummel, i will agree.

in a majority of situations i happen to be faced with, AoE will kill sharpshot before it gets enough tp to ws. also if you're using inhib, and for those that dont have VS, the puppet wouldnt favor AS, over something that would sc.

[Dfoley]

The biggest problem with pet sc'ing is this:
1) Its worthless inside abyssea
1.a) You cant use it on exp mobs, they die before it goes off
1.b) you wont use it on +1/+2 mobs cause the mobs at 40-60 % before all procs go off, and even then you are usually on blm/brd/blu/whm/mnk/war
1.c) If your using rr/ss/apoc or rr/gh/apoc neither you or your pet will have tp, you have to use SD or VV which means you have slightly less dps for everything else

2) Outside of abyssea its incredibly useful if you get it to go off, but currently for me its about 3 of my ws before the pet is ready and even then on an exp mob, its dead from either my ws or the pets ws.

3) Which leaves you voidwatch, a situation where your pet is more likely to die from ae then get the tp to ws skill chain, and add in the 15+ other people spamming ws at the same time, you will never get that skill chain off.


TLDNR:
Skill chain is good, and nice for epeen numbers but unless we get a sam type ability to 'force' a pet ws even without 100tp 1 time every 5 minutes, its too hard/wasteful 95% of the time to even bother trying for them.

[Dfoley]

And yes, /gasp. I just recommended a situation where you can use SD and gave an example of why...see, it wasn't that hard!


Edit; also jar...wtf is up with your picture.

I thought it looked like some fat guy strangleing himself with a chord before i realized that it wasnt arm fat it was the chair, and that chord was the stick figure itself...

now i am gonna forever picture the fat guy with the chord :-(

[Zhronne]

Nice, these lasts posts from you people are more in line with what my experiences have been. I thought I was the only one having issues in using SCs everytime :D

[xbobx]

Funny I never have problems matching TP with me and puppet and constantly spamming SC at around 100-120 tp. And it is incredibly useful in abyessa, I am shocked people would say it wasn't. With my group fighting emp and +2 mobs we constantly doing dark. Between Nin emp ws, Dagger , pummel and Shredder , I wouldnt doubt on some of the mobs we hitting 20k in damage just in skillchain dark damage. Mobs have been going down very fast.

[Jar]

some ppl just dont know how to position for AoE =/ all so self Skill chaining is the shit in Dyna, einherjar, limbus, and empyrean farming(you know when green doesnt matter <3).

[xiozen]

The biggest problem with pet sc'ing is this:1) Its worthless inside abyssea

Perhaps for you its worthless---depending on your play style---not all play styles are created equal.


1.a) You cant use it on exp mobs, they die before it goes off 1.c) If your using rr/ss/apoc or rr/gh/apoc neither you or your pet will have tp, you have to use SD or VV which means you have slightly less dps for everything else

Perhaps for you, exp mobs have died before a SC went off--but I've seem a number of factors play into this:

1. The weapon you are using (empy weapons may cause too much dmg (per swing) for the lower tier mobs, however after a while and once the abyssea mobs have "leveled" they tend to become much more resistant to dps, increasing the chances to skill chain for a set-up not geared for it (because they won't die as quickly) and much more often for a set-up that is geared for it...(since dps goes down, chances for tp build go up...increasing chances to skill chain between pet and master = eg. darkness)
2. How your automaton is geared (attachments used...if using Heat Capacitor then TP may not be as far off as you make it seem for the automaton) in addition to using a non-empy (multi-hit-from personal experience) weapon..lower dps, but greater tp regain.


2) Outside of abyssea its incredibly useful if you get it to go off, but currently for me its about 3 of my ws before the pet is ready and even then on an exp mob, its dead from either my ws or the pets ws.

Nothing for me to say here... btw, this is probably the first statement I've seen in your posts where you apply something based on your personal experience---I have to give you credit for it.. Nicely stated. :)


3) Which leaves you voidwatch, a situation where your pet is more likely to die from aoe then get the tp to ws skill chain, and add in the 15+ other people spamming ws at the same time, you will never get that skill chain off.

I agree completely with this statement... the prayer... HOPE... is that SE's revamping of attachments will allow our automatons to be as resilient as avatars and bst pets, which, in my personal experience, LAST A LOT longer and can TANK/HOLD these voidwatch NMs long enough until the party/alliance tanks have recovered in emergency scenarios. Which translates into they don't die in 5 - 7 melee hits and can take a few hard hitting TP moves...


TLDNR:
Skill chain is good, and nice for epeen numbers but unless we get a sam type ability to 'force' a pet ws even without 100tp 1 time every 5 minutes, its too hard/wasteful 95% of the time to even bother trying for them.

Sorry can't agree with you based on the above... but again, we're talking PLAYSTYLE, which includes weapon, automaton, attachments, equipment, atma, mobs...etc etc etc...

[Dfoley]

Okay add this disclaimer to my previous post xiozen, sense apparently its understood that of your posts are from your personal experience, but for some reason you think mine cover all pups...:



Assuming you have VS/SP
Assuming you macro a decent WS set (+50 ~65 str)
Assuming you use rr/ss/apoc, rr/vv/apoc, rr/gh/apoc (all will give very closer numbers)
If you sub war and keep temp item buffs/berserk up
If you use atk food (curry, bison steak, pizza...something)


Then you will:


mostly be 1 shoting mobs (atk should hover around 750-900 with + 100~150 str on WS)
Very rarely get to SC with your pet (not saying never), since your pet will be doing 2300-2600 armor shatters if you geared it as mentioned above which is still possible to skill chain off of. VE however will be in the 3.5k range and chances are vs/sp will kill the mob before the SC goes off. The mob must have at least 1 hp and no one mut auto attack after VS/SP otherwise it wont proc the skill chain.

Empy weapon is only 5 more base dmg than the weapon you use, and if you are using SP with the right atma, than it should be doing very comparable ws and TP dmg.

However:


If you are sub ninja/dnc
If you are using inferior DD atma (yes you can use SD to skill chain more, but each ws also does less dmg)
If you are gearing the pet to tank instead of DD
If you tp/ws in an evasion set
If you do not macro a ws set
If you are not using atk food
If you never use temp items in abyssea

Then yes, xiozen, you are correct. You will be able to skill chain much easier and will be able to do with 2 weapon skills+skill chain what you could be doing with one single weapon skill.

When i first started with Verethragna I scoffed at people who said they average 5k VS. Then i started keeping berk up, using food and temp item...and guess what I can VS up to 6.6k now on pup. Average exp mob has about 5-6k hp at IT, so even if I ws for the 3.8k range there is no SC off that when my pet does a 2300 dmg ws.

I am not trying to diss peoples gear/play styles. I am just saying that if you are going for a high DD play styles (which is most pups I have met), then what I have said above is true.

[xiozen]

Okay add this disclaimer to my previous post xiozen, sense apparently its understood that of your posts are from your personal experience, but for some reason you think mine cover all pups...:



Assuming you have VS/SP
Assuming you macro a decent WS set (+50 ~65 str)
Assuming you use rr/ss/apoc, rr/vv/apoc, rr/gh/apoc (all will give very closer numbers)
If you sub war and keep temp item buffs/berserk up
If you use atk food (curry, bison steak, pizza...something)


Then you will:


mostly be 1 shoting mobs (atk should hover around 750-900 with + 100~150 str on WS)
Very rarely get to SC with your pet (not saying never), since your pet will be doing 2300-2600 armor shatters if you geared it as mentioned above which is still possible to skill chain off of. VE however will be in the 3.5k range and chances are vs/sp will kill the mob before the SC goes off. The mob must have at least 1 hp and no one mut auto attack after VS/SP otherwise it wont proc the skill chain.

Empy weapon is only 5 more base dmg than the weapon you use, and if you are using SP with the right atma, than it should be doing very comparable ws and TP dmg.

However:


If you are sub ninja/dnc
If you are using inferior DD atma (yes you can use SD to skill chain more, but each ws also does less dmg)
If you are gearing the pet to tank instead of DD
If you tp/ws in an evasion set
If you do not macro a ws set
If you are not using atk food
If you never use temp items in abyssea

Then yes, xiozen, you are correct. You will be able to skill chain much easier and will be able to do with 2 weapon skills+skill chain what you could be doing with one single weapon skill.

When i first started with Verethragna I scoffed at people who said they average 5k VS. Then i started keeping berk up, using food and temp item...and guess what I can VS up to 6.6k now on pup. Average exp mob has about 5-6k hp at IT, so even if I ws for the 3.8k range there is no SC off that when my pet does a 2300 dmg ws.

I am not trying to diss peoples gear/play styles. I am just saying that if you are going for a high DD play styles (which is most pups I have met), then what I have said above is true.

Well said and makes perfect sense... you state your points very well here. I wholeheartedly agree with all of it!!! Thx! =)

[Zhronne]

Follow up for Theytak and Dfoley.
So, finally got a chance to play a bit with my PUP yesterday (or 2 days ago? Forgot sorry :p).
The sample is still very small, but good enough to start talking I guess. I got around 100k xp (a bit more probably) and killed ~150 monsters.

Tried a good mix of SP and VS, but SP managed to pull better numbers than VS only a few times, like 2 or 3? Wrote it down at home. Not talking about averages here, talking about max damage.
Vsmite got up to 4,3k once, it was of course usually staying much lower, but it was always above SP except those mentioned couple of times.

This is the "strange behaviour" I was talking about a few pages ago. Looking at my spreadsheet I can see well that aside from a few strange setups, Pummel should perform always better than Vsmite (altough the difference is small), but when I go and use it on the field, Vsmite is always above Pummel.

Dunno, anybody want to make up more hypothesys? Want to see my gear? (altough it's nothing special, really)

[Jar]

Follow up for Theytak and Dfoley.
So, finally got a chance to play a bit with my PUP yesterday (or 2 days ago? Forgot sorry :p).
The sample is still very small, but good enough to start talking I guess. I got around 100k xp (a bit more probably) and killed ~150 monsters.

Tried a good mix of SP and VS, but SP managed to pull better numbers than VS only a few times, like 2 or 3? Wrote it down at home. Not talking about averages here, talking about max damage.
Vsmite got up to 4,3k once, it was of course usually staying much lower, but it was always above SP except those mentioned couple of times.

This is the "strange behaviour" I was talking about a few pages ago. Looking at my spreadsheet I can see well that aside from a few strange setups, Pummel should perform always better than Vsmite (altough the difference is small), but when I go and use it on the field, Vsmite is always above Pummel.

Dunno, anybody want to make up more hypothesys? Want to see my gear? (altough it's nothing special, really)

accuracy its always acc

[Zhronne]

I'm not talking of missed hits of course, I can see that from the TP return. I think I never took into account WS numbers where I missed 1 or more hits (altough it happened only a couple of times, really, on those mobs I'm probably at the 95% acc cap)

Dunno why you took up the Accuracy argument. Maybe I gave the impression I wasn't considering missed hits in my very small and simple test? Sorry if that's the case, hope I clarified the situation now D:

[Jar]

on avrg you will miss more hits with SP and with ftp so close even that lowers avrg


also from what your posting you eyeballed it

[Dfoley]

SP: 6 hits, first 2 can da/ta
Avg hits in abyssea with apoc/rr/(ss/gh): 6+1
With 95% acc:
70% chance of landing all 7
77% chance of landing 5

VS: 4 hits, first 2 can da/ta
avg hits in abyssea with apoc/rr/(ss/gh): 4+1
with 95% acc: 77% chance to land all 5

You are only partially correct in that SP will miss more hits. It also has a higher average number of hits, so in total SP will average more hits. Your chances of landing 5 vs 6 vs 7 vs 8 hits in a row is the same for either weapon, however SP will average 2 more potential hits.

[Jar]

SP: 6 hits, first 2 can da/ta
Avg hits in abyssea with apoc/rr/(ss/gh): 6+1
With 95% acc:
70% chance of landing all 7
77% chance of landing 5

VS: 4 hits, first 2 can da/ta
avg hits in abyssea with apoc/rr/(ss/gh): 4+1
with 95% acc: 77% chance to land all 5

You are only partially correct in that SP will miss more hits. It also has a higher average number of hits, so in total SP will average more hits. Your chances of landing 5 vs 6 vs 7 vs 8 hits in a row is the same for either weapon, however SP will average 2 more potential hits.

base fTP isnt that different

say you ws 50 times
300 hits of SP
200 hit of VS

tho one is hitting so much more the damage differences are not that big at all so that +7% miss is huge <.<

[Dfoley]

You are correct
5 hits from sp = 4.75
5 hits from vs = 6.25

That is where the damage difference comes from. FTP loss due to acc in relationship to the odds of landing 7 consecutive hits vs 5. SP is more likely to hit its maximum potential while VS will rarely hit it because it requires 2x tripple attacks AND 8 hits, vs 1 tripple, or 2 double and 8 hits. SP has more chances to get the extra 2 hits, while VS has only 1 way to get the extra 4 (until they add quad attack for monks ;-p).

So in theory, you should see high max hits with SP, but on average see better ws with VS.

[Motenten]

@Theytak: Unfortunately you messed up right at the start of the math you posted (the first long post), in your calculations of TP per hit (you calculated TP from round delay and then divided the TP in half; you need to divide round delay in half and then calculate TP for a single hit). It's a common mistake, but it still means the values you use after that are invalid. Also, the manner in which you calculated the difference (whole number of weaponskills within a non-infinite timespan) is subject to fairly large amounts of error due to the short timespan you used.



2) SS increases crit dmg by a %, correct, however no buffs affect cirt dmg and it is a linear stat. A super simple example is this: Hit for 150, crit for 300 (+0% crit dmg, 150 dmg added from crit), crit for 450 (+100% crit dmg, 300 dmg added for cirt). Im sure someone will correct me on the math there but it really is linear.

Err.. Not quite. If a normal hit is 150, and a crit is 300, then when you add +100% crit damage the crit will be for 600 instead.



Anyway, my experience is that judging from the spreadsheet Stringing Pummel should always pull out numbers higher than Victory Smite, yet in-game (at least by eyeballing, never thoroughfully parsed) VS damage seems always more consistant than SP's, altough occasionally SP does more.

In the end I tend to use up VS for the Aftermath, but still this thing always puzzled me. More feedback from other users?

My initial guess is that you're setting up gear sets in the spreadsheet and then swapping between weaponskills to see which does better, rather than optimizing for each weaponskill.

Regarding your other concerns via fTP or accuracy and whatnot, such things are already accounted for in the spreadsheet. DA/TA with limits on max number of hits per weaponskill, proper probability distributions of the number of hits (with the above posts with 70%/77%/etc are not correct about), etc.

I don't play on pup very often, and my anecdotal evidence has lots of issues, but the last time I did a lot of melee/weaponskilling with pup and was messing with both SP and VS, I was doing substantially better with SP. I remember it as being vaguely annoying since SP wasn't doing just 'slightly' better, but a fair bit better. Only caveat is that at that time I believe I was using Rev Fists +2 instead of the Verethragna I later finished, and the extra str on Vere is more valuable to VS than SP.



I also have a long explanation of the effects of slow from Sea Daughter and TA from Apoc, but I'll refrain from the wall of text since the main argument is now a couple weeks old. Short summary: In order for switching from Apoc atma to Sea Daughter to be on par with using Apoc atma, one would have to prove that the 5/tick regain *by itself* can increase your total (melee+ws combined) damage by at least ~50%.

Given a 50/50 melee/weaponskill split (I'm actually hitting this range now with VS), a 50% increase in damage essentially means you need one extra weaponskill every weaponskill cycle. 5/tick regain means +100 TP every minute, therefor you would have to be weaponskilling once per minute for this to be comparable if considered strictly from the master's perspective.

In my experience, extremely high haste situations see weaponskills every 10 seconds. Completely unbuffed situations (but still capped gear haste) see weaponskills about every 30 seconds, including the occasional few seconds of switching between mobs. It would only approach one additional weaponskill per cycle with substantial amounts of time between mobs, though that in itself it not entirely unlikely (eg: have to wait 90 seconds between pops for Abyssea NMs).

If you add in skillchain damage, and assume mirrored damage amounts, that damage increase still has to be proportionately split between master and puppet. Unfortunately, that split varies wildly depending on many factors. Best case for SD's purposes is a split that's heavily in favor of the master, and that the master closes the skillchain.


Overall, modelling the effect is very complex. I'd say it's impossible for SD to beat Apoc for any standard DD, but could actually be feasible for a pup doing frequent skillchains (though difficult to manage given the relative TP gains between puppet and master). The big caveat is, of course, all the issues that Dfoley brings up regarding how much of that damage can actually be used.

[TimeMage]

Awesome explanations, Motenten, thanks.

[Jar]

Regarding your other concerns via fTP or accuracy and whatnot, such things are already accounted for in the spreadsheet. DA/TA with limits on max number of hits per weaponskill, proper probability distributions of the number of hits (with the above posts with 70%/77%/etc are not correct about)

Explain that part.

[Motenten]

Explain that part.


SP: 6 hits, first 2 can da/ta
Avg hits in abyssea with apoc/rr/(ss/gh): 6+1
With 95% acc:
70% chance of landing all 7
77% chance of landing 5

Average number of hits in Abyssea with Apoc and 95% accuracy plus:

No other DA: 6.24
Brutal: 6.31
/war+Brutal: 6.45
/war+Brutal+Cirque head: 6.50
/war+Brutal+Cirque head+Epona: 6.62

So in no circumstances are you going to average 7 hits.

However, assuming you have a 7-hit weaponskill, yes, you have a 70% chance to land all 7 hits with 95% accuracy. However to land 5 hits has a chance of .95^5 * .05^2 * C(7,5) = .7738 * .0025 * 21 = 4.06%, not 70%.

Total probability of all actual 5-hit combinations after accounting for multi-attacks is 10.8%. 7 hits will land 23.3% of the time.

Average net fTP (with the first hit being 0.75): 6.386



VS: 4 hits, first 2 can da/ta
avg hits in abyssea with apoc/rr/(ss/gh): 4+1
with 95% acc: 77% chance to land all 5

Average number of hits with VS with the /war+Brutal+Cirqe+Epona config is 4.81. This comparison is closer to reality, but still not quite there.

Average net fTP (with the first hit being 2.25): 5.999


tho one is hitting so much more the damage differences are not that big at all so that +7% miss is huge <.<

As noted, the 7% miss difference is illusory. You actually want to compare average net fTP combined with base damage. For the gear that happens to be in place in my spreadsheet at this time, VS has a total base damage of 166 while SP has a total base damage of 161.

Multiply those together and you have:

VS: 5.999 * 166 = 995.834
SP: 6.386 * 161 = 1,028.146

Where SP is 3.2% ahead of VS.

It doesn't account for cRatio or crits, however cRatio should be nearly the same (depending on if you optimize gear slightly differently for the two weaponskills). Crits in Abyssea will favor SP because of the slightly higher net fTP; that difference in fTP, when it crits, pushes the two further apart. Overall average difference in final weaponskill damage for the gear set being used is 3.5% in SP's favor.

[Dfoley]

Oh moten your cute if you think i was trying to crunch 100% accurate numbers.... It was merely an example where i rounded up to whole numbers for simplicity of explanation.

The rest of what you said i am fine by :-p (not so sure about the 5/7 hit being being 4%, i think you are talking about the odds of only landing 5 when you swing 7 times, vs just the straight 'when you swing 5 times what are the odds that 5 in a row land.) I am not a stat stud, calculus was more my thing, but I will take your word.

I just am stating from personal experience. SP tends to spike higher/lower while VS tends to be more consistant.

[Zhronne]

My initial guess is that you're setting up gear sets in the spreadsheet and then swapping between weaponskills to see which does better, rather than optimizing for each weaponskill.
Nope, altough I have to admit my SP and VS sets are very similar.
Don't have my macrosets in front of me atm but I think they differ only for a few slots.
Cirque+2 body for SP and Usukane for VP, Shadow Belt for SP and Beir Belt+1 for VS, what else? Maybe I use Aesir for SP and Vulcan's Pearl for VS? Not really sure but I think that's about it.
Rest of the gear I have are 2% critdamage/wsdamage Moogle Hat, Cirque+2 hands, Cirque+2 feet, Usu legs, Brutal, Epona, Rajas, Pantin Cape, Ele gorget. Not the best but still pretty good I guess?

Last week I tested a bit while doing Grounds of Valor, over 500 WS used between VS and SP, I wrote down the numbers of every WS I was using, I didn't consider those with missed hits (as far as I could tell from TP returns) and avoided using Aesir Ear Pendant because of the conserve TP.
500 WS is not a huge number statistically, and the targets I chose were really bad for testing, I suppose. Bats and Leeches in Zeruhn Mines... So yeah, I guess my testing is hardly worth anything lol.
From those numbers I wrote the highest and lowest damage. SP's highest was ~2,9k, VS's highest was ~2,8k. SP's lowest was ~800 and VS's lowest was 1036 if I recall, both happened during the leech's attack debuff. I think I still have exact numbers wrote down in a file @ home.
The average number, to my surprise, was very close for both WS. I think SP's average was slightly better? But we're talking about tiny differences.

So from this little test, that hardly counts anything because of how I conducted it, it seems that I was wrong in defining VS more "consistent" than SP, they're close to each other and SP is slightly better (altough the difference seemed smaller than the one suggested by your Spreadsheet, but that's probably because my test had too many unwanted variables).

I also find it a bit hard to use VS for Aftermath and then SP while AM is up. That might be possible if you're in a party with Haste and March, but when you're solo or you don't have enough Haste, you don't get TP fast enough to keep the Aftermath up, so I found it easier to just use VS to maximize the uptime of the Aftermath.
Altough in all honesty I still get the feeling that AM for h2h isn't as relevant as it is for 2 handed weapons.
The proc rate is appearently the same, but it works only on our offhand and its related DA/TA.
This has been discussed several times, they went this way because they thought that the number of hits into a full h2h attack round is higher than the number of hits into a 2handed weapon attack round.
True.
Problem is our hits do half the damage of the hits of a 2 handed weapons. Our whole attack rounds are probably close to each other in terms of damage, but it's like 2 of our hits corresponds to 1 of their.
So our aftermath, when it procs, it's weaker than theirs.
To me this is unbalanced.
They should have reduced the % of aftermath proc (atm it's ~45% if I recall?) but make it so it can proc on all the fucking hits of your attack round.

What's your stance on this Motenten?


Oh and also, very off topic, I have a couple of questions to ask you about your SAM spreadsheet, how can I do that? PM on Allakazham? PM on FFXIAH? Thanks! :)

[Motenten]

I don't like it either, but there's not much that can be done about it. It's been complained about enough I'm sure Camate at least has made note of it.

And PM on either site works fine. I'll notice it eventually :)