If RDM and SCH can't have Cure 5, give us Afflatus Misery/Solace

[Ophannus]

The devs won't give SCH and RDM Cure 5, so instead let us at least be able to use Afflatus Misery/Solace. I don't see why WHM gets Addle next patch which up until now has been a special RDM only spell and can sub RDM and get a full-strength Convert, something that made RDM unique and special but we can't use WHM's unique and special Afflatus abilities? Besides Gravity,Enspells and Refresh II what does RDM have to offer in party situations? Paralyze II and Slow II? Negligible.

Either make Convert a 1:3 or 1:2 conversion so that RDM's version is still stronger than other job's when /RDM or let RDM benefit from Accession when casting Temper/Phalanx II/Refresh II/Haste + use another mage's special abilities unhindered such as Afflatus. No reason why all of RDM's unique abilities should be taken advantage of by other jobs but everything RDM subs is reduced to a degree. We can't Accession Haste or Temper but WHM can use Addle and Convert all their HP into MP? A BLM can sub RDM and take advantage of BOTH Fast Cast AND Elemental Celerity? RDM needs to have more unique spells and abilities besides spells that ONLY affect the RDM. Self-cast only spells don't work in party situations only soloing and RDM only solos because nobody wants us for challenging events over a specialist. Like I said, besides Enspells/Refresh 2/Gravity we don't have anything unique. Refresh 2 isn't even useful since every mage subs RDM for our full power convert and Refresh 1 which is more than enough.

[Shiyo]

Afflatus solace is one of the many reasons why giving RDM and SCH cure5 wouldn't make them become better than WHM, they'd simply be VIABLE healers.

[FaytesBirth]

That would be the point, give Sch the ability to at least be a viable healer so that Whm isn't the only one sought out.

[Meyi]

No.

White Mages are invited for one reason; to cure. Red Mages and Scholars have more options for roles to play.

[Lucialynn]

99% of all pts I was in as RDM, the pts wanted me to ONLY refresh mages and PLDs and DRKs, and haste tanks and DDs, throw an enfeeble out now and then, but always want the BLM to do the enfeebles and elementals and I was mostly wanted for Cures
so I pretty much was the WHM of the pt even when there was a WHM there, but also to refresh and haste
evetnually I stopped pting and solo'd, duo'd and trio'd

[SpankWustler]

This wouldn't really accomplish much, except to make an aspect of White Mage less unique.

With only Cure IV, the Stoneskin effects provided by Afflatus Solace would be 150 at absolute best.

Without Esuna, the Afflatus Misery stance as a whole would be worthless.

Jobs can't be balanced by just moving a bunch of stuff around without actually looking at what that stuff does and that stuff does stuff. Oddly enough, though, some of these same elements of White Mage are the reason White Mage would still have a healthy lead as a healer if other jobs had Cure V.

Certainly not the lead it has now, but honestly an awful White Mage should be out-performed by a capable player on another job with healing capabilities.

[Shiyo]

99% of all pts I was in as RDM, the pts wanted me to ONLY refresh mages and PLDs and DRKs, and haste tanks and DDs, throw an enfeeble out now and then, but always want the BLM to do the enfeebles and elementals and I was mostly wanted for Cures
so I pretty much was the WHM of the pt even when there was a WHM there, but also to refresh and haste
evetnually I stopped pting and solo'd, duo'd and trio'd

You stopped partying because you had to actually pay attention, do lots of things, and had a busy job? I'm confused, you stated "I had to be a RDM" and you stopped partying over that..?

Why did you pick RDM then?

[Deadvinta]

Stupid idea. That's all I have to say about it.

[noodles355]

Cure V would be more balanced than Affletus Solace. Solace is such an amazing healing tool. In abyssea with stupid HP pools, yeah Cure 5 is why people take Whm, but in general, outside and inside, it's Solace and Misery that set whm leagues above the rest.

Being able to give someone a 400 DMG Stoneskin with a 1-2 second cast time as you see a HNM readying a powerful move is amazing.

[Puck]

Afflatus Misery and Solace were added specifically in response to RDM and SCH encroaching on WHM's healing territory at 75 cap. In addition, they made sure that these abilities were unavailable with WHM set as a sub job when they raised the level cap. Why the hell would you think they'd even consider giving these abilities to the very jobs they didn't want to have them?

[Ophannus]

Because as a RDM we have no role anymore. Refresher? Every mage subs RDM now and gets a FULL STRENGTH CONVERT and Refresh 1 which was more than enough at 75 and at 90 makes Refresh II simply a novelty rather than a necessity especially with +2 Bodies which give +2 autorefresh. If SE not only didn't make Convert unavailable through Subjobs like Afflatus but also left it at the same potency as RDM main then what does RDM even have that makes us useful at all?

You say RDM has nukes. Have you ever tried nuking on anything outside of Abyssea that's VT-IT not even counting NMs(Only voidwatch count cuz theyre higher level than us) without the +90-130 INT from Cruor/Atma and +Magic Accuracy/MAB from Atmas? Remember RDM has C- Elemental Skill. RDM nukes are a novelty outside of Abyssea just as they were at 75. You never saw RDMs nuking sky gods,Kirin or TOAU kings.

Our enfeebles used to be our main specialty but now almost everyone can sub SCH and use Dispel. The only RDM only enfeeble we have are our Merit spells and Gravity. Pretty ridiculous that the only things that makes RDM unique are merit spells? How is that even fair?

All of RDM's unique spells and abilities are self-cast. We can't even make use of our 2nd highest skill (Enhancing Magic) because all of the enhancing magic spells that are actually affected by Enhancing Skill are self-cast only like Gain-Stat/Phalanx/Enspells/Bar-spells etc.. If we could actually cast Temper/Enspells/Barspells/Phalanx on others then RDM wouldn't be so bad but what's the point of boosting our own melee/defense if we can't even really make good use of it or only in certain novel situations. At least let WHMs keep their AoE Bar spells but let RDM's barspells and buffs at least be castable on single targets instead of SELF ONLY. I never understood why RDM has selfcast bar spells, they're worthless outside of solo unless we're /SCH and /SCH already doesn't work on spells RDM is used for like Refresh 2 and Haste and soon to be Temper.

The fact that every other mage gets FULL STRENGTH Convert and all of our unique spells are being whored out to other jobs while RDM get nothing from subs is really terrible. WHM gets a full power convert and refresh but RDM can't get even a half strength Afflatus or a Cure 5.

[Inafking]

Are you serious? The job ability is more powerfull than the spell. They don't want to give us the spell to make us more powerfull. You really think they're gonna give us the job abiliity?

[Leonlionheart]

OP: Stupid ideas.

Topic: Give RDM a buffing cure, something that adds like defense or magic defense similar to how Plenuline Embrace works. Give SCH a short duration but high regen spell, maybe a healing helix would fit the bill. 500 HP initial, 200 HP /tick for 2 ticks sounds good and not even close to overpowered like Cure VI is (1500+ HP is about 25 HP more than a level 90 Taru PLD)

[Saefinn]

OP: Stupid ideas.

Topic: Give RDM a buffing cure, something that adds like defense or magic defense similar to how Plenuline Embrace works. Give SCH a short duration but high regen spell, maybe a healing helix would fit the bill. 500 HP initial, 200 HP /tick for 2 ticks sounds good and not even close to overpowered like Cure VI is (1500+ HP is about 25 HP more than a level 90 Taru PLD)

This. It would be appropriate for each of the jobs - take advantage of RDM's enhancing skill and SCH's works with its 'over time' niche, SCH gets Regen and Regen II before anybody else (not such why it doesn't get regen III earlier and not sure why it doesn't get regen IV), this method would be reminiscent of my play style in lower levels.


However, this topic has been talked to death with countless suggestions, lets just hope SE finds a sensible solution that doesn't piss of RDMs, SCHs and WHMs - but no doubt whatever they do there will be people who'll complain.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

This JA is one of the few things that actually make a WHM worth having, taking it away would be ludicrous.

Cure V is the only thing needed, I'll stick by this until the cows come home. It's an insult a job that can natively heal can be defeated by jobs that can only heal when /whm such as SMN. Will it make WHM irrelevant, most likely not, the stoneskin is great to have now and the MP problems even outside Abyssea are starting to die now.

Lets not forget, were it to be given to RDM or WHM it'd be gimped anyway in that they'd most likely remove the small Enmity it generates for the two jobs so it'd be used only when needed. WHM is the healer again and I don't believe anything will change that now.

[Yugl]

OP: Stupid ideas.

Topic: Give RDM a buffing cure, something that adds like defense or magic defense similar to how Plenuline Embrace works. Give SCH a short duration but high regen spell, maybe a healing helix would fit the bill. 500 HP initial, 200 HP /tick for 2 ticks sounds good and not even close to overpowered like Cure VI is (1500+ HP is about 25 HP more than a level 90 Taru PLD)

Randomly (Or selectively) transfer one of the buffs on the RDM each cure?

[Tamoa]

As far as rdm + Abyssea go, I've given up. Whm is just so much better than rdm in Abyssea, and giving rdm solace/misery isn't going to change that one bit. Outside Abyssea is a different story, rdm is still awesome there, and CureIV is usually all you need. Having both jobs, I say no to giving solace/misery to rdm. But I also say no to giving whm Addle! Not happy about that at all, and I want a word with the SE employee that thought that would be a good idea. -.-

[Shiyo]

Cure4 does not cut it outside abyssea on voidwatch NM's AT ALL.

[Tamoa]

Cure4 does not cut it outside abyssea on voidwatch NM's AT ALL.

Wouldn't do those without a whm anyway. I said "usually all you need", didn't I?

[Shiyo]

So content a nin/dnc can solo cure4 cuts it? :p

It's completely unacceptable for RDM and SCH to be at bad as healing as they currently are. COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE.

[Malamasala]

I'd rather they fixed SMN and PUP so they could have their pets cast Cure V correctly. It is a bit sad when the game has 3 jobs covering the most important spell in the game, and 2 of them can't use it due to poor programming.

[Tamoa]

So content a nin/dnc can solo cure4 cuts it? :p

It's completely unacceptable for RDM and SCH to be at bad as healing as they currently are. COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE.

Nin/dnc can't solo all other non-abyssea content. I shouldn't even need to tell you that.

A part of me would like CureV for rdm, but it isn't such a big deal anymore as it once was. Best thing about having it, would be losing the enmity you get from casting CureIV. But not even that's such a big deal, stuff usually dies so fast it doesn't really matter much.

[Xellith]

Im going to put this as simply as I can.

SCH isnt a whm.
SCH isnt a blm.

SCH SHOULDNT get abilities and spells that put it on par or surpasses these jobs.
SCH SHOULD Remain lesser than these two jobs.

Why? Because you can flick back and forth from healer to nuker.

Deal with it.

---

I actually did come up with a method of having it so that SCH and RDM can have cure 5. It involves making it so that every cure spell with WHM will put on a powerful regen effect on the target. Also add more monsters that use doom moves that are unrecoverable with medicine and have it so that cure spells with misery up 100% remove the doom effect.

And there you have it. You get cure 5 and whms still are main healers.

Point is this. You are ALWAYS going to HAVE to be worse at healing than whm. Its not your job to be the best. Its to be the best of what schs can do. (I still think sch shouldnt even exist btw...)

[Francisco]

So content a nin/dnc can solo cure4 cuts it? :p

It's completely unacceptable for RDM and SCH to be at bad as healing as they currently are. COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE.

I've accepted it.

[Yugl]

Im going to put this as simply as I can.

SCH isnt a whm.
SCH isnt a blm.

SCH SHOULDNT get abilities and spells that put it on par or surpasses these jobs.
SCH SHOULD Remain lesser than these two jobs.

Why? Because you can flick back and forth from healer to nuker.

Deal with it.

---

I actually did come up with a method of having it so that SCH and RDM can have cure 5. It involves making it so that every cure spell with WHM will put on a powerful regen effect on the target. Also add more monsters that use doom moves that are unrecoverable with medicine and have it so that cure spells with misery up 100% remove the doom effect.

And there you have it. You get cure 5 and whms still are main healers.

Point is this. You are ALWAYS going to HAVE to be worse at healing than whm. Its not your job to be the best. Its to be the best of what schs can do. (I still think sch shouldnt even exist btw...)

That's stupid reasoning you present. SCH already has three limiting factors: Book recast, Addendum requirement, and Detriments associated with each book. People who talk of dual-roles on SCH are either unfamiliar with the class or over exaggerate the benefit that their precious nuke provided. Only in the most lax of circumstances will you even bother to jump books. Any scenario requiring precision/attentive healing will typically force you to remain situated within one book. Any scenario requiring nuking will neither necessitate nor compel SCH's supremacy over BLM solely on the basis of healing. This is especially true considering the pervasiveness of Cure IV. In short, the argument that SCH should remain vastly inferior because of the ability to change between nuker and healer is flawed because it fails to recognize that there are existing limits on which role a SCH can perform, both internal (Book/Addendum/Detriments of Books) and external (Circumstances do not favor this). Sadly, these are the same people who do not recognize the vast superiority of specialization in PTs over multifaceted skills.

[Shiyo]

Im going to put this as simply as I can.

SCH isnt a whm.
SCH isnt a blm.

SCH SHOULDNT get abilities and spells that put it on par or surpasses these jobs.
SCH SHOULD Remain lesser than these two jobs.

Why? Because you can flick back and forth from healer to nuker.

Deal with it.

---

I actually did come up with a method of having it so that SCH and RDM can have cure 5. It involves making it so that every cure spell with WHM will put on a powerful regen effect on the target. Also add more monsters that use doom moves that are unrecoverable with medicine and have it so that cure spells with misery up 100% remove the doom effect.

And there you have it. You get cure 5 and whms still are main healers.

Point is this. You are ALWAYS going to HAVE to be worse at healing than whm. Its not your job to be the best. Its to be the best of what schs can do. (I still think sch shouldnt even exist btw...)

lol? So we should just go AFK if we don't have a WHM online or someone isn't willing to play WHM because it's the easiest most boring job in the universe? Man, that's great game design! Requiring a WHM for everything in the universe and no other job being able to fill the role of a WHM when we have TWENTY jobs in this game.

Sorry, but no, just..no.

All DD jobs are within 5-10% of eachother, there's multiple viable tanks, why is there only ONE viable healer? BAD GAME DESIGN is why.

[Xellith]

While you can say that All DD jobs are within 5-10% of another you are not taking into consideration the special abilities and tactics that can be employed on a per job basis. Every job can excel over another job it just depends on the particular task at hand.

Name me something that a WHM can do that a SCH cant that isnt cure V/VI or Repose.

Giving other jobs stuff that makes WHM become less important than its primary function (healing) is going to force the dev team to add harder monsters and make WHM get new spells/abilities - in response to which you will complain about not being able to keep up with cures once again.

In hard battles you want a whm there. If you dont have a whm then either use multiple healers or find someone to fill that 1 spot.

[Shiyo]

Or you could make SCH/RDM/WHM all very good viable main healers, obv making WHM the best but not making it required.

oh hey level 75 sup

I literally do not know anyone who enjoys playing WHM, they simply play it because it's REQUIRED. It's such an easy job to play and so needed people end up playing it on a mule :/

[Yugl]

Name me something that a WHM can do that a SCH cant that isnt cure V/VI or Repose.


Name me important stuff that WAR can do that DRK/WAR cannot do that isn't Ukko's/Blood Rage or Warrior's charge? I guess DRK is fixed! Meanwhile, PUP can perform all those maneuvers and has higher evasion, so it clearly is superior. Of course, that's assuming we're being morons and using number of abilities available as a sole criteria for performance. Not a single portion of your post actually addresses the problems with your reasoning.

[Saefinn]

Im going to put this as simply as I can.

SCH isnt a whm.
SCH isnt a blm.

SCH SHOULDNT get abilities and spells that put it on par or surpasses these jobs.
SCH SHOULD Remain lesser than these two jobs.

Why? Because you can flick back and forth from healer to nuker.

Deal with it.

---

I actually did come up with a method of having it so that SCH and RDM can have cure 5. It involves making it so that every cure spell with WHM will put on a powerful regen effect on the target. Also add more monsters that use doom moves that are unrecoverable with medicine and have it so that cure spells with misery up 100% remove the doom effect.

And there you have it. You get cure 5 and whms still are main healers.

Point is this. You are ALWAYS going to HAVE to be worse at healing than whm. Its not your job to be the best. Its to be the best of what schs can do. (I still think sch shouldnt even exist btw...)

We don't want to be the best. We want our jobs to do what they were intended to do. One of the roles of RDM and SCH is to heal - not to heal as well as a WHM, but to be able to fill the role if a WHM isn't available. Now it's a necessity for many NMs to bring a WHM (this is excluding procs, because WHM has the upper hand even then, light procs). For every other job type there's a choice - if you need a tank you might choose a THF or a NIN, for Melee damage you might choose a WAR or a DRK, for enhancing you might choose a BRD or COR, for ranged attack you might choose a COR or RNG, for nuking you might choose a SCH or a BLM, for healing, you choose a WHM unless the NM is weak enough, then you've got a choice.


I also love SCH exclusive content, so as a solution I like Leon's idea because it's very much within the nature of SCH. His suggestion appeals to my play style from lower levels.

[Economizer]

I literally do not know anyone who enjoys playing WHM, they simply play it because it's REQUIRED. It's such an easy job to play and so needed people end up playing it on a mule :/

Sup.

White Mage is only easy if you are in a good party. The only way other jobs deserve any of the pure power of curing as a White Mage is if White Mage gets massive amounts of power in other areas to make up for the lack of the current monopoly, because unlike other jobs, White Mage doesn't have much to fall back on.

[Yugl]

Sup.

White Mage is only easy if you are in a good party.

Thanks for the pointless response. Same could be said of any situation in which you are dependent on your members. Idiots can make the game endlessly difficult from MPKing the group to using terrible gear. It doesn't reflect the difficulty of the task once individuated from these factors.


The only way other jobs deserve any of the pure power of curing as a White Mage is if White Mage gets massive amounts of power in other areas to make up for the lack of the current monopoly, because unlike other jobs, White Mage doesn't have much to fall back on.Pure curing power? Like Cure I-IV? Oh dear, that WAR/WHM has pure curing power. How will I ever get them to accept me!

[Xellith]

Name me important stuff that WAR can do that DRK/WAR cannot do that isn't Ukko's/Blood Rage or Warrior's charge? I guess DRK is fixed!

---
With regards to abyssea....
Lots and lots and lots and lots of Red and Blue Triggers. Not gonna name them all. I asume you have access to some form of wiki but are just too ignorant to use it.

Tomahawk (underestimated but good for certain situations)
Ability to kill about 30 monsters at once etc etc.
Can shift from extreme offense to extreme defense depending on your gear/sub (which is what makes war very versatile.
---
I can name stuff a DRK can do that a WAR cannot do.

Blood Weapon Kclub/Mrkis
Apocalypse spam
Weapon Bash
Bio II Yellow Trigger (DOT also if have to zombie something for group)
Water 3 Yellow Trigger
Aero 3 Yellow Trigger
Fire 3 Yellow Trigger
Drain Yellow Trigger
Cross Reaper Blue Trigger
Stun
Dread Spikes
Numerous Absorb spells.

I can go on if you like. Better yet ill just Link (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Dark_Knight) you to it.

--

Pup can solo a tonne of stuff but the AI is a little borked.

You are not even trying to have a debate. You are just trying to be argumentative with every single post questioning my reasoning. I suggest you look inwards and address your own issues.

I'm not going to list every single little tiny little niche that a job gets just because you are ignorant.

[Shiyo]

Wow Xellith thought you were serious LOL

[Xellith]

I still have yet to see any reason (worth taking seriously) why SCH or RDM should get cure 5. Not to mention Afflatus Solace.

[Yugl]

---
With regards to abyssea....
Lots and lots and lots and lots of Red and Blue Triggers. Not gonna name them all. I asume you have access to some form of wiki but are just too ignorant to use it.

Tomahawk (underestimated but good for certain situations)
Ability to kill about 30 monsters at once etc etc.
Can shift from extreme offense to extreme defense depending on your gear/sub (which is what makes war very versatile.
---
I can name stuff a DRK can do that a WAR cannot do.

Blood Weapon Kclub/Mrkis
Apocalypse spam
Weapon Bash
Bio II Yellow Trigger (DOT also if have to zombie something for group)
Water 3 Yellow Trigger
Aero 3 Yellow Trigger
Fire 3 Yellow Trigger
Drain Yellow Trigger
Cross Reaper Blue Trigger
Stun
Dread Spikes
Numerous Absorb spells.

I can go on if you like. Better yet ill just Link (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Dark_Knight) you to it.

--

Pup can solo a tonne of stuff but the AI is a little borked.

You are not even trying to have a debate. You are just trying to be argumentative with every single post questioning my reasoning. I suggest you look inwards and address your own issues.

I'm not going to list every single little tiny little niche that a job gets just because you are ignorant.

And with that, you just stepped on your own argument, idiot. It's not about naming abilities X class over Y class with exception to the most important aspects of that class; it's about substantive capability. For example, the whole premise behind WAR being able to demolish mobs at a faster pace than other DDs depends on the ability to utilize the aforementioned, yet excluded, abilities. Hence, to present that as evidence that SCH doesn't need curing adjustments is utterly stupid.


Wow Xellith thought you were serious LOL

He activated my trap card.

[Zhronne]

The devs won't give SCH and RDM Cure 5, so instead let us at least be able to use Afflatus Misery/Solace.
No.
I personally stand against this.
First because it's part of the uniqueness of WHM. Second because it just makes no sense. It would hardly cover the gap needed to call SCH and RDM good healers and it would be pretty ineffective without the special spells and abilities that are in synergy with the two afflatuses and that are WHM exclusive.

I'm instead for Cure V at during the next (95>99) level cap. Of course they should make it "special" for RDM and SCH. The WHM version of Cure V also has a "hidden effect" of lower enmity, this effect should be taken off for SCH and RDM.
I think at that point I'll call myself happy and both jobs will be able to be pretty decent healers both outside and inside Abyssea.
If they don't want to give us C5 even without the enmity bonus, then they should create a new healing spell just for SCH and RDM, calling it... I dunno, "Soothing Wave" and make it similar in potency to Cure V, enmity excluded.
:D

[SpankWustler]

I literally do not know anyone who enjoys playing WHM.

Sup. I like that it fulfills it's purpose really well, but it gives me more buttons to push than other single purpose jobs like Warrior. White Mage feels awesome to me right now, and I'm sure I'd still be on it plenty even if my bros and bro-ettes could heal to some effective degree with their Scholars and Red Mages.


Name me something that a WHM can do that a SCH cant that isnt cure V/VI or Repose.

Shellra V and superior bar-spells together for superior magic defense. 250-400 HP Stoneskin from Cure V/VI. More quickly cast Cure spells. Faster and more potent area of effect healing when it's relevant. Being able to cast Cure V and Cure VI back to back when needed (I doubt any other job will ever gain both). Esuna and Sacrifice when they are relevant. Situational stuff like Divine Caress, Boost spells, and Auspice.

Healing and support is about more than grunting and groaning and squeezing out a big number into the chat log. A cure is either large enough/fast enough to comfortably prevent death, large enough/fast enough to prevent death by a less comfortable margin, or not large enough/fast enough to prevent death. For most new NM's, Cure IV falls into the last category.

[Saefinn]

---
With regards to abyssea....
Lots and lots and lots and lots of Red and Blue Triggers. Not gonna name them all. I asume you have access to some form of wiki but are just too ignorant to use it.

Tomahawk (underestimated but good for certain situations)
Ability to kill about 30 monsters at once etc etc.
Can shift from extreme offense to extreme defense depending on your gear/sub (which is what makes war very versatile.
---
I can name stuff a DRK can do that a WAR cannot do.

Blood Weapon Kclub/Mrkis
Apocalypse spam
Weapon Bash
Bio II Yellow Trigger (DOT also if have to zombie something for group)
Water 3 Yellow Trigger
Aero 3 Yellow Trigger
Fire 3 Yellow Trigger
Drain Yellow Trigger
Cross Reaper Blue Trigger
Stun
Dread Spikes
Numerous Absorb spells.

I can go on if you like. Better yet ill just Link (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Dark_Knight) you to it.

--

Pup can solo a tonne of stuff but the AI is a little borked.

You are not even trying to have a debate. You are just trying to be argumentative with every single post questioning my reasoning. I suggest you look inwards and address your own issues.

I'm not going to list every single little tiny little niche that a job gets just because you are ignorant.

WAR can switch from extreme offense to extreme defense, meaning a WAR is capable of fulfilling dual roles - tank and heavy DD. DRK is dedicated to extreme offense, but if you wanted somebody in your party with extreme offense you can choose between WAR and DRK (I know there's other jobs capable, but for the sake of discussion) and both are very capable of filling that gap. WAR gets invites because of procs, I know a DRK can proc red too, but WAR covers more weapons and I don't see DRK proccing yellow or blue because they've got a very limited choice. But both are very capable at offense. PLD is capable of filling the side of extreme defense too and with the ability to self sustain its own health and its use of other white magic spells its usually the preferred choice (though I understand Abyssea tends to prefer extreme evasion over extreme defense) but a WAR is capable of fulfilling that niche if needed.

Yet, SCH the job that's supposed to be the master of Light and Dark Arts seems to only be a master of the Dark Arts who's second to BLM and in Abyssea it's BLM that's chosen for procs (and probably why we see WAR instead of DRK). There's a lot a SCH can't do that BLM and WHM can and there's a lot BLM and WHM can't do that a SCH can. There's plenty of reasons to choose a BLM or a WHM over a SCH, yet if you need a nuker or a healer and if a WHM or BLM is available, you've got a SCH to fulfill either role, just like a WAR can either be offensive or defensive. A SCH isn't going to be spamming nukes and cures side by side due to its limitations, SE have cleverly limited SCH through its Dark Arts/Lights Arts system to stop it from being over powered. Stratagems too offer limits - I can't land a Tier V nuke without Addendum: Black, if I've used up all my stratagems on my White magic, the best I'll be able to do is Tier III, if I've used my stratagems on nukes, I can't use any of my status removal spells, I'd have to wait 40 seconds (at level 90) before I could do that whilst my paralyzed tank struggles to cast Utsusemi: Ni and could be dying very quickly, and to use Addendum: White, I need to be under Light Arts, which has a recast timer too. There's the merit JA Enlightenment, which helps when you need it but you can only use addendum spell with it and it has a big recast timer. So making full use of White and Black magic side by side on a SCH can be very damaging when you're the main healer. SE gave us limitations like that to stop us from being over-powered hybrids.

To me this is akin to a WAR with Berserk and Defender and its gear set ups for offense and defense - you're not going to go in heavy when you're defending and you're not going to be defending when you're going in heavy. (Dark Arts boosts Black Magic, but weakens Light Magic, Light Arts boosts White Magic but weakens Black Magic)


So I think it is recognisable that certain jobs and certain aspects of jobs have been neglected with the Abyssea updates whilst other jobs excel.



[Edit]

Also to note, WHM can DD too, something a RDM can but a SCH...it's pointless to melee on a SCH, with C skill on staff and club and a serious lack of weapon skills (in comparison to WHM) and a lack of heavy armour to take the hits. I've sat in Abyssea watching WHM/NINs DD very well.

[Leonlionheart]

WAR can switch from extreme offense to extreme defense [...]

get outWAR can't do defense for crap, unless you're talking about PDT sets, in which case BLU gets easier to make PDT sets. Defender is NOT a good defensive capability for WAR.

[Ank]

Is this where we ask for defender to do something more than boost loldefense, or has that boat long since sailed.

[Saefinn]

I've had some decent WAR tanks before now who can take a beating. I don't see them in Abyssea, but then I don't see PLD ones either - at least not often. I'm just agreeing with the dude that WAR is versatile. WAR might need work on its defense side, but I'm just saying, its capable of taking the defensive position as a tank.

The word 'extreme' might well...be a bit extreme, but I'm using Xelith's words here. A WAR is capable of being a DD and a tank.

[SpankWustler]

WAR can activate Retaliation and be healed by a White Mage, meaning a WAR is capable of fulfilling dual roles - tank and heavy DD.

You had a minor typo, but don't worry, I fixed it for you.

[Saefinn]

I don't think I've ever seen a tank that hasn't needed a healer. A good tank is backed by a good healer, tanks aren't invincible after all. If you can take a beating enough to stay alive and keep hate, then you can tank.

[Leonlionheart]

I don't think I've ever seen a tank that hasn't needed a healer. A good tank is backed by a good healer, tanks aren't invincible after all. If you can take a beating enough to stay alive and keep hate, then you can tank.

Doesn't mean that WAR has defensive capabilities.

Edit: Unless you consider killing things faster than imaginable defensive

[SpankWustler]

At the risk of derailing things further, I'll post once more to try to clarify. I think the point about Warrior currently functioning better as a tank than some melee jobs is relevant, even though you fell into the dark abyss of mentioning Defender and it's ilk.

Being a huge jerk-face, I expressed this in a jerk-faced manner.

[Saefinn]

Defender was a poor example - I thought using it would illustrate how you have alternative roles like defense vs offense, but obviously failed and made things worse using Xelith's words "Extreme Offense" and "Extreme Defense". My mistake.

But WAR can still DD and tank. In Abyssea it would seem WAR is much better for DD than tanking, so I don't know if WARs want something better than defender and to increase their own defensive capabilities or not (I know some folk who want their PLD to tank more), but it wouldn't mean they'd be stepping on the toes of other tanks, just as WAR's DD isn't stopping other people's jobs from DDing (though it is much better for proccing red, granted, but I'm moving proc jobs aside here).

[Leonlionheart]

What WARs want: Well, nothing really. Ukko's Fury is enough to hold me over for a while. Only thing that's even been discussed in terms of "can have" are some silly ideas and Quadruple Attack! More like pipe dreams though.

Edit: Went way off topic.

SCH needs a Helix type cure!
RDM needs an enhancing type cure!

[Saefinn]

What WARs want: Well, nothing really. Ukko's Fury is enough to hold me over for a while. Only thing that's even been discussed in terms of "can have" are some silly ideas and Quadruple Attack! More like pipe dreams though.

Edit: Went way off topic.

SCH needs a Helix type cure!
RDM needs an enhancing type cure!

True.

Also, does anybody know what Embrava is like? If it's any good, it might be the answer for SCH if it wasn't only available under Tabula Rasa (Tabula Rasa would allow me to spam Rapture and cure like a boss anyway).

[Zhronne]

SCH needs a Helix type cure!

Two or three of them actually but gdi, that's a fucking awesome idea! Sounds a lot like WoW or other MMO but whatever, it would be a very very original concept in FFXI! A HoT that does an initial heal and then goes on, if you want you can "consume" the remaining HoT with a modusveritas-like JA.

Omg I'm in love with this scenario! But it would probably be a bit too far off from current game mechanics. Too bad! Doubt it's gonna happen in the last 95>99 levels :P but that's a shame, it was an awesome idea.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Im going to put this as simply as I can.

SCH isnt a whm.
SCH isnt a blm.

SCH SHOULDNT get abilities and spells that put it on par or surpasses these jobs.
SCH SHOULD Remain lesser than these two jobs.

Why? Because you can flick back and forth from healer to nuker.

Deal with it.

---

I actually did come up with a method of having it so that SCH and RDM can have cure 5. It involves making it so that every cure spell with WHM will put on a powerful regen effect on the target. Also add more monsters that use doom moves that are unrecoverable with medicine and have it so that cure spells with misery up 100% remove the doom effect.

And there you have it. You get cure 5 and whms still are main healers.

Point is this. You are ALWAYS going to HAVE to be worse at healing than whm. Its not your job to be the best. Its to be the best of what schs can do. (I still think sch shouldnt even exist btw...)

No one denies this. Cure V IS a spell SCH and RDM should get, it's not a question. It's a fact. Up until Cure VI was added RDM was always only one step behind other jobs with no AoE, so not getting Cure V when VI has been added and subjobs gain IV is a joke.

SCH as it stands is an odd one, it's currently on par with BLM for it's single target nukes, yet so very far behind Cure's on WHM. Now I'm not saying I want them to get Cure VI but it's certainly odd to be so far behind on curing but not on nuking.

[Saefinn]

Two or three of them actually but gdi, that's a fucking awesome idea! Sounds a lot like WoW or other MMO but whatever, it would be a very very original concept in FFXI! A HoT that does an initial heal and then goes on, if you want you can "consume" the remaining HoT with a modusveritas-like JA.

Omg I'm in love with this scenario! But it would probably be a bit too far off from current game mechanics. Too bad! Doubt it's gonna happen in the last 95>99 levels :P but that's a shame, it was an awesome idea.

It's definitely appropriate for how the job works. I used to love Regen II in the lower levels (37-50) because it was enough to keep people alive, because it meant I was able keep people's HP up and do other things. I think in a cure bombing situation your healing-helix would be there to enhance your curing, just as in a nuking situation your helices may be useful in enhancing your damage dealing (or dealing damage whilst you save somebody's ass). In other situations, you could throw that healing helix and take advantage of other roles - you may nuke or use elemental-helix spells or throw some enhancements, remove status effects or help with crowd control. Would it be overpowered? The recast of a helix is 37 seconds, so you couldn't spam it onto multiple party members at once, you could helix a tank, but reserve Cure IV for other members. Helices can't be AoE'd either, so you wouldn't be able to work around it. It'd help balance SCH's curing side, appeal to its exclusive set of spells and at the same time, be unique and restrictive enough to allow WHM to be the better healer with its own set of exclusive spells to top. Many reasons why this is a good idea, but we don't want to flatter the poor bloke too much. :p

[Economizer]

No one denies this. Cure V IS a spell SCH and RDM should get, it's not a question. It's a fact. Up until Cure VI was added RDM was always only one step behind other jobs with no AoE, so not getting Cure V when VI has been added and subjobs gain IV is a joke.

SCH as it stands is an odd one, it's currently on par with BLM for it's single target nukes, yet so very far behind Cure's on WHM. Now I'm not saying I want them to get Cure VI but it's certainly odd to be so far behind on curing but not on nuking.

Seriously, how many times do we have to go over this. Cure VI is not a reason to get a spell, Cure VI is a joke. White Mages would be less offended if you asked for Cure VI, because it sucks.

Imagine if Black Mage had a nuke that costed one hundred more MP to do one hundred more damage. This is pretty much what Cure VI is to a White Mage.

Saying that White Mage having Cure VI is a reason to get a spell, is to show massive, willful ignorance about the way healing works in the game.


Sup.

Can this be the rallying cry of White Mages everywhere, at least in response to people saying that nobody enjoys playing the job?


I like that it fulfills it's purpose really well, but it gives me more buttons to push than other single purpose jobs

Several times I've almost requested to make the job harder to pick up and play, given the amount of people who talk about leveling a White Mage mule, but the more I think about it, perhaps it isn't that White Mage is so easy you can dual box it, but instead that traditional melee jobs are so easy that you can pick up another account and still be able to smack stuff for damage.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Seriously, how many times do we have to go over this. Cure VI is not a reason to get a spell, Cure VI is a joke. White Mages would be less offended if you asked for Cure VI, because it sucks.

Imagine if Black Mage had a nuke that costed one hundred more MP to do one hundred more damage. This is pretty much what Cure VI is to a White Mage.

Saying that White Mage having Cure VI is a reason to get a spell, is to show massive, willful ignorance about the way healing works in the game.

No it isn't, the fact Cure IV doesn't cut it anymore is the reason the jobs need Cure V.

As for WHM, I've levelled it but paint drying is more entertaining than playing as it. It's a means to an end as opposed to a fun job.

[Reaux]

We don't want to be the best. We want our jobs to do what they were intended to do. One of the roles of RDM and SCH is to heal - not to heal as well as a WHM, but to be able to fill the role if a WHM isn't available. Now it's a necessity for many NMs to bring a WHM (this is excluding procs, because WHM has the upper hand even then, light procs). For every other job type there's a choice - if you need a tank you might choose a THF or a NIN, for Melee damage you might choose a WAR or a DRK, for enhancing you might choose a BRD or COR, for ranged attack you might choose a COR or RNG, for nuking you might choose a SCH or a BLM, for healing, you choose a WHM unless the NM is weak enough, then you've got a choice.


I also love SCH exclusive content, so as a solution I like Leon's idea because it's very much within the nature of SCH. His suggestion appeals to my play style from lower levels.

This is all incorrect and has less to do with jobs capabilities and the dev team and more to do with the playerbase. SCH and RDM are not made to replace WHM if it isnt there. They are not healers. They are hybrids with RDM having more melee/enfeeble focus and SCH being more casting focused. SCH has decently capable nukes and can increase their accuracy with abilities, less mp cost, and some fast cast. Yes I know someone earlier mentioned how they hate books used as a reason but that is your unique ability, learn to use it more effectively and you can make up for "short comings" RDM just has never been allowed to melee...ever it is the only job that can have room to really complain, especially with the decision to give it high enhancing skill and not giving it unique buffs or AoE pro/shell.

If you need a tank you do not pick THF unless the mob is easy and does mostly physical attacks, if it nukes a THF is dead. It does not have the shadows or higher INT of NIN to block those and cannot enfeeble or use /DNC the same way to survive. WAR has the ability to use MANY weapon types and off tank, playerbase won't allow that. DRK's have just stopped using their magic completely and have the advantage to SC and MB....something people just rarely do anymore, it can also enfeeble and absorb attributes but doesn't, again playerbase fault.

When I start seeing more SCH's use their books and helix spells to boost their skills then maybe I can understand the want for more, but few do. However I agree with the idea of RDM getting more unique and AoE buffs or a buff/heal and giving SCH a super heal helix cool thing instead of Cure V.

[Ank]

No it isn't, the fact Cure IV doesn't cut it anymore is the reason the jobs need Cure V.

The fact that rdm and sch's highest cure is subbable /whm now and /rdm in the future is somewhat indicative of how outdated it is. Maybe we "aren't healers" but 44/51 levels without an upgrade is pretty amazing.

Cure v, healing helix, whatever, can't speak for how rdm's think but I'm sure most sch would be happy with anything as long as it lets them cast while waiting on cure4 recast.

As for misery/solace. That's silly, you're silly.

[Saefinn]

If it's less to do with the dev team then why was Cure IV available to RDM and SCH before Abyssea? In allowing RDM and SCH to use Cure IV when Cure IV was powerful enough for a main healer they've made RDM and SCH healers and healers who can be used when a WHM is not available. The player base will take what's available to them and make use of it. It's not the primary role of a RDM or SCH, granted, but it is 'a' role. With Abyssea Cure IV is less useful and RDM and SCH are in need of an update if they're going to remain true to their previous capabilties. Don't get me wrong, SCH is still a fantastic healer and people I team up with me probably think it's odd that I think SCH needs work in its healing department.

But personally, I love embracing a job's exclusivity and what makes them special rather than borrow too much from another job, hence I prefer the healing helix and enhancing cure ideas over being given Cure V.


But:

When I start seeing more SCH's use their books and helix spells to boost their skills then maybe I can understand the want for more, but few do.

This surprises me. I can't live without my stratagems (or books) and helix spells are great and can be used in a number of situations - as a companion for nukes, to deal additional damage without gaining a lot of hate whilst you spend your timing enhancing and healing and even to keep claim on an NM, but also kite them - SCH/RDM is great for kiting when a tank is dead or charmed - you're wearing the mob down, keep claim without having to directly damage the enemy.

Mind you, I've never teamed up with another SCH, even when using my other level 90 jobs, so I don't know how other people are playing the job.

[Zatias]

Cure 4 sucks now. Cure 5 please.

Really though, WHM is the only viable healer now. Anything else yanks hate all over the place or just can't cure for enough. Wouldn't a supporting RDM with Cure V help when the WHM is incapacitated?

No, that would take the WHM's job away, wouldn't it.

It's not like WHM has huge cure potency, low casting times, cureskin, potent barspells, and mp return pants. Cure V is the only thing that's keeping them the main healer.

RDM and SCH will remain neglected, to say the least.

[Malamasala]

Really though, WHM is the only viable healer now. Anything else yanks hate all over the place or just can't cure for enough.

Or has ridiculous timers. (PUP, SMN, DNC) Though I bet if a DNC could spam their highest waltz, it would pull more hate than any other spell.

[Leonlionheart]

INB4 they raise the level of Cure IV to 50 for WHM to "fix" this problem.

[FrankReynolds]

INB4 they raise the level of Cure IV to 50 for WHM to "fix" this problem.

Lol, sounds like something they would do.

[Azagthoth]

You give people Cure V they'll complain about being forced to focus on healing. You don't give people Cure V and they'll complain about not being able to heal effectively.

[FrankReynolds]

I'd rather complain about things I have to do than Things I can't do.

[Zhronne]

I'd rather complain about things I have to do than Things I can't do.
^
This, many many times.

[Salvation]

Yeah SE hurry up and give Rdm Cure V so they can move on to continuously whining about the next thing they can't do as well as another job (let's see you spent years crying about not being able to melee as well as a DD job, now it's crying over healing capacity, so I guess next is to cry that you can't nuke as well as Blm). As for Addle, you guys can keep it. I don't recall Whms ever asking for it, nor do we want it. Hell you can have Cure V (and VI for that matter) and Regen III; SE can give Whm a job trait that scales up allowing us to break the hard cap on cure potency and a few additional pieces of gear that have enhanced Regen potency on them.

[SpankWustler]

Imagine if Black Mage had a nuke that costed one hundred more MP to do one hundred more damage. This is pretty much what Cure VI is to a White Mage.


The fact Cure IV doesn't cut it anymore is the reason the jobs need Cure V.

Is it weird that I think both of these statements are totally true and agree with both of them?

I think an awesome solution would be to increase the effect that MND and Healing Magic Skill have on Cure VI and give other jobs Cure V. If a decent White Mage's Cure VI were an assured full-cure for anybody outside of Abyssea, the spell wouldn't be the best thing since sliced meat but at least it wouldn't feel like "a worse Cure V for times when Cure V is down".

Unique methods of preventing people from dying would be super awesome, but given how incredibly "unique" stuff like Adloquium and the Animus spells turned out, I think the first reaction to such spells being announced would be fear. The second would be anger. The third would be split between acceptance and complaining about some aspect of Summoner.

[Shiyo]

I'd rather complain about things I have to do than Things I can't do.

I'd rather laugh at people who refuse to perform a function of their job, while it adds more depth to my job and allows me to do more things, thus have tons more fun.

There is no reason for a MMO with 20 jobs to have ONE viable healer in every situation imaginable. If you cannot see this, you are blind.

[Zatias]

Oh look, more WHM curebots who are scared RDM / SCH will take their job away (again). WHMs were only unwanted in merit parties. You were never replaced.

We don't want your job. We want to be able to support you. Cure IV isn't good enough for that.

[Azagthoth]

I'd rather complain about things I have to do than Things I can't do.

RDMs and SCHs really need to get over being left out in Abyssea, because a lot of the time it was either due to the ignorance of the playerbase or they planned on farming stuff during Light proc.

RDM or SCH can main heal the vast majority of seal NMs, they can main heal some Empy NMs, etc. I'd rather see both jobs get some more unique abilities rather than Cure V; it is nice that SCH and RDM are getting more cure potency next update.

[Siiri]

Oh look, more WHM curebots who are scared RDM / SCH will take their job away (again). WHMs were only unwanted in merit parties. You were never replaced.

We don't want your job. We want to be able to support you. Cure IV isn't good enough for that.

Right, that was a lot of supporting RDM did at 75 healing. They were the sole healer for about 1/2 the events in game, if not more.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Yeah SE hurry up and give Rdm Cure V so they can move on to continuously whining about the next thing they can't do as well as another job (let's see you spent years crying about not being able to melee as well as a DD job, now it's crying over healing capacity, so I guess next is to cry that you can't nuke as well as Blm). As for Addle, you guys can keep it. I don't recall Whms ever asking for it, nor do we want it. Hell you can have Cure V (and VI for that matter) and Regen III; SE can give Whm a job trait that scales up allowing us to break the hard cap on cure potency and a few additional pieces of gear that have enhanced Regen potency on them.

The nuking aspect of RDM is perfect, it's inferior to BLM but NOT crazy inferior like it is curing wise.

No traits are necessary for WHM, the JA is amazing and the easy way they can reach 50% Potency, all they need to do is make Healing Magic actually relevant to cures.

[Zatias]

Right, that was a lot of supporting RDM did at 75 healing. They were the sole healer for about 1/2 the events in game, if not more.

Too bad the cap isn't 75 anymore, and I never had an event where RDM was designated main healer. They were always supporting the WHMs.

Unless you mean exping was the other half of "events". That I would understand.

[Economizer]

Is it weird that I think both of these statements are totally true and agree with both of them?

It is because the guy who I replied to totally ignored the point he made a few minutes before and acted like I was arguing against some idiot's post. If the argument he wanted to make from the start wasn't "Other mages should get Cure V because White Mage gets Cure VI" he shouldn't have said that from the start.

Personally, if other jobs get Cure V, I will demand to SE that they give those jobs Cure VI, because if they can convince SE to give them Cure V, maybe they can convince SE to fix Cure VI.

The only legit argument I've seen about anything White Mage completely and utterly has (aside from Cure V) that can't be replaced or almost matched by something else are the White Mage AF3 pants, at least in lowman situations. Stuff like cure potency (guess who is going to be able to cap it next update?), magic defense, debuff removal, light damage nukes, cureskin, one light based sleep spell, are all things other jobs get, or can come close enough to that it doesn't matter.

I think that if SE ultimately decided to give Cure V to other jobs, and that they wouldn't improve White Mage's cure abilities to compensate, White Mage should get a slew of other tools and improvements to fit other role. They should be incredibly extreme improvements to secondary roles for White Mage to fill. Afflatus Misery could use a buff anyways, so I think that would be a good place to start.

[Siiri]

Too bad the cap isn't 75 anymore, and I never had an event where RDM was designated main healer. They were always supporting the WHMs.

Unless you mean exping was the other half of "events". That I would understand.


Rdm healer at 75: Nyzul, experience, salvage, limbus farming, einherjar t1 and t2 wings, sky farming, dynamis

White mage healer- HNMs, ultima and omega, t3 einherjar and Odin, sky Gods

Your mileage may vary of course, this is just a quick list of how the various linkshells I was in worked it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If I was in Dynamis on Rdm it was /blm, /drk, and I've heard of /nin and have the Rdm solo stones and have the blms crowd control (not that it was hard to main heal in dynamis, Rdm had other things to do).

Exp pts are not events, stop talking about exp parties. Whm/sch could still heal effectively in exp pts anyway.

[Zatias]

Rdm healer at 75: Nyzul, experience, salvage, limbus farming, einherjar t1 and t2 wings, sky farming, dynamis

White mage healer- HNMs, ultima and omega, t3 einherjar and Odin, sky Gods

Your mileage may vary of course, this is just a quick list of how the various linkshells I was in worked it.

This just shows that WHM has always been the superior healer in more difficult events. RDM was support/grinding type healing.

[Siiri]

In our dyna shells black mages handled the stones and crowd control, red mages main healed the DD parties. Experience was one thing I mentioned. You can leave it out and the list still shows red mage as sole healer in many events.

I don't for a second believe many salvage groups were using anything but red mage as main heal. Same with limbus, my first limbus they flat out refused to allow white mages in the zone. Red mage was just too efficient.

[SpankWustler]

Personally, if other jobs get Cure V, I will demand to SE that they give those jobs Cure VI

The Red Mages and Scholars of Vana'diel would cast Cure VI for the first time, then they would know the pain of losing a fourth of their Magic Points for a disappointing cure and you would know revenge. The wheel of fate rolls over us all.

[Ank]

Exp/merit was the only thing I've ever done in which whm wasn't preferred.

Could rdm handle some of those things? Perhaps, but isn't that an argument for buffing rdm curing for the new levels?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Whm/Sch could have effectively done Nyzul and Dynamis last I checked, so knocking those two off leaves limbus, salvage, einherjar, and sky farming on your list.

[Shiyo]

I did Nyzul with a WHM mainhealing while i was on brd. LOL @ a rdm ever mainhealing soulflayers and crap, would be hell. RDM's suck at mainhealing vs lots of AOE damage and status effects, esuna + shellra5 5/5 is amazing.

WHM has always been the best healer since the /sch buffs + afflatus solace/esuna/etc update. RDM was only good at healing when you didn't actually need "Healing" and needed "Haste/dia3/debuffs", aka merits and salvage(phalanx2 reduced damage to basically 0) SCH was a better healer than RDM by a lot at 75, and WHM was better than SCH. It was perfectly balanced, now it's horrible. WHM OR GTFO.

Also, no, a RDM cannot heal certain Body seal NM's or certain emp NM's, unless you're talking about lol carabosse or seal NM's that nin/dnc can solo or a blm/whm can mainheal. If a RDM or SCH can mainheal it, a WAR/WHM with refresh atmas and cruor buffs can JUST AS WELL too. That is the problem.

[SpankWustler]

Whm/Sch could have effectively done Nyzul and Dynamis last I checked, so knocking those two off leaves limbus, salvage, einherjar, and sky farming on your list.

Really, the Scholar sub and Afflatus Solace fixed a lot of the issues that White Mage previously experienced with marathon-style events. After those additions, I didn't feel nearly as pressed when I was the sole healer for something like Limbus or Salvage.

Depending on the monster type that popped up, White Mage could be super awesome in Einherjar. Esuna is amazing for dealing with the status AoEs that so many of the monster types that appear there enjoy applying.

[Shiyo]

Einherjar? Get -50% attk down bats, /cry as RDM, /esuna as WHM and lol, accession - > erase as SCH and lol almost as much as WHM.

If you honestly think WHM wasn't the best einherjar healer, and RDM was barely a viable healer there, I don't know what to tell you.

[Siiri]

Whm/Sch could have effectively done Nyzul and Dynamis last I checked, so knocking those two off leaves limbus, salvage, einherjar, and sky farming on your list.

Sure they could have, and did sometimes. I was talking about my experiences. Why I said your milage may vary. Certainly Red mage was preferred in nyzul, it was obvious in shouts. Anyway, I am done arguing this minor point. Funny thing is, I haven't even said my opinion on the Cure V mess. I do wish red mage and scholar were more viable main heals. Most white mages I know outside of myself or a couple others leveled the job as a bandwagon and they pretty much suck. I would love to be able to come DD to an event and not have a garbage mage trying to heal. I just don't know the answer. I have agreed with the proposal put up numerous times strip the enmity down off Cure V and just buff white mage tranquil heart way up vs. the other 2 jobs, but SE doesn't seem to want to go there. Maybe making healing skill matter would help as well. I just can't say I agree with slapping Cure V on red mage and scholar as is.

Sorry to edit: addressing einherjar. I was an officer in my shell and one of my big pushes was white mage main heal for every party. They founded the shell with the idea, from Blue Gartr threads, to make einherjar parties like colibri parties. Our first few months we went red mage main heal. There was epic discussion on forum with me pushing white mage heal. I do agree white mage heal was better, it was a mindset that red mage was sooo awesome everywhere.

[Shiyo]

WHM was a better healer than RDM always, much more MP efficient thanks to sublimation/light arts/penury, stronger cures, better barspells, better shell, etc. People always argued convert/refresh made a RDM have more cures/mp than a WHM, this is simply wrong. I never experienced such a thing, I experienced the complete opposite. When people needed cure bombing a WHM was ALWAYS better, and always kept their up up much better than a RDM. A RDM would slowly fall behind and lose the MP war, letting people die. This was even more true when it came to AOE damage, a RDM is the worst AOE healer in the game(still is).

RDM was just a viable substitute healer, instead of being completely unviable and worthless <_< Healer balance is completely broken.

[SpankWustler]

Most white mages I know outside of myself or a couple others leveled the job as a bandwagon and they pretty much suck. I would love to be able to come DD to an event and not have a garbage mage trying to heal.

Every time I hear somebody say this, for some reason, the ending of Chinatown plays in my head. I think it's because the truth is generally really depressing, and this statement is always true.

[Shiyo]

Most white mages I know outside of myself or a couple others leveled the job as a bandwagon and they pretty much suck. I would love to be able to come DD to an event and not have a garbage mage trying to heal.
Yeah, I literally cannot play a DD job without my mule WHM healing me or I'll die to the dumbest crap ever, never be hasted, and never be -na'd properly. It makes the game very unfun :/ There's like 0 good WHM's on my server. I didn't realize the easiest job in the game to play was so complex...

[Jerbob]

I'm sorry, but that's the most disrespectful thing I've heard in a long time. White Mage is easy if you're fighting something that's easy to kill - just the same as any other job - or if you've only got one person to heal, like your mule. Conversely, if I'm in a group fighting something that AoE paralyses or silences, deals AoE damage, slows, blinds and goodness knows what else then I'm literally casting 100% of the time keeping status effects off people and keeping them healthy. This is with Divine Benison's fast cast on ailment removal spells and capped cure casting time reduction, fast cast and all that jazz.

White mage isn't easy on monsters that you need a white mage for. I'm busy. So I'm sorry if your blindna is 10 seconds late when I'm dropping Cure Vs on a tank who's struggling with Utsusemi, or you aren't hasted the instant it drops because everyone else just got silenced and I've got to deal with that first. I have to prioritise, and 10 seconds of blindness or lack of haste are pretty low on my priority list when people are dying.

I love my job as a white mage precisely because I'm busy all the time. I don't appreciate people telling me that my job is boring, easy, a "curebot", or that I'm no good because I've not removed your AGI down when I've got more important things to do right at that moment. Sorry to be so aggressive, but I hear this sort of thing constantly on this forum and it does start getting to me.

[Shiyo]

The job is like half a SCH or 1/3 a RDM, I basically do everything on WHM without thinking because I'm used to doing those things on SCH and RDM, while also doing MUCH MUCH MORE(debuffs, sleeps, dispels, breaks, refresh,nukes, binds, etc).

It's not a hard job at all, the other mages are much more complex and difficult. I will say it's harder than a loldd like mnk though.

The most complex things on WHM is proper esuna/sacrifice use. I rarely ever see anyone use sacrifice properly without being told to.

[SpankWustler]

People are talking about generally talking about White Mages who have mastered the art of wandering away from the computer, complain if someone changes trousers and momentarily vanishes as a result, allow paralyze to age like the finest European cheese, and feel Haste is the such a luxury that it should be taxed. There are people who suck at FFXI in ways you can not imagine.

I don't think anybody cares about five extraneous seconds of Blindness one way or the other.

[Reaux]

Oh look, more WHM curebots who are scared RDM / SCH will take their job away (again). WHMs were only unwanted in merit parties. You were never replaced.

We don't want your job. We want to be able to support you. Cure IV isn't good enough for that.

You're right! That is why you throw out that Cure IV when you can, refresh us, and keep haste/enfeebles up. OMG RDM Supporting in a way RDM is supposed to? Run Away! SCH slap some Aurorastorm on yourself or the WHM or the DNC, it does boost CHR, to make Cures more potent or use an element that ties into the mobs weakness so your nukes are higher. Use the right storm spell to make a SMN's avatar perp less and abilities stronger or give the tank more AGI and hate, you can even surpress a BLM hate gain so they can nuke more often. The roles are support, not healing, so support the WHOLE party not just the heals. You can nuke and enfeeble or make other jobs more effective. So do it. That is your niche and what makes you individual.

In every MMO there is really just 1 healer, the rest are hybrids that are passable at best but never as good unless you have multiple in a group.

The main issue is RDM and SCH players thinking that healing is their only viable way of supporting and their only role, and the base perpetuates this. Use your tools!

Edit: Sorry for possibly using the wrong terms for spells. I was typing rather quickly and didn't pay full attention if I was using the right term. I will edit it later to reflect properly what point I am trying to get across.

[Shiyo]

In every MMO there is really just 1 healer, the rest are hybrids that are passable at best but never as good unless you have multiple in a group.

I see you've never played a MMO besides FFXI in your entire life.

[Jerbob]

You must be fighting different mobs to me or be in a different party environment then, because if I'm casting pretty much constantly on the stuff that matters then I'm not sure how you could be casting three times as many spells as me. And of course, White mages can (and should, and do) sleep, enfeeble and dispel stuff when other jobs more suited to it aren't around. I know I do.

[Economizer]

I don't think anybody cares about five extraneous seconds of Blindness one way or the other.

I've had random damage dealers demand I remove the flash effect on them before.

[Siiri]

People are talking about generally talking about White Mages who have mastered the art of wandering away from the computer, complain if someone changes trousers and momentarily vanishes as a result, allow paralyze to age like the finest European cheese, and feel Haste is the such a luxury that it should be taxed. There are people who suck at FFXI in ways you can not imagine.

I don't think anybody cares about five extraneous seconds of Blindness one way or the other.

Exactly, I went mnk to hands seal NM in abyssea a couple weeks ago. I was talked out of being white mage. I was at 660 hp for 11 seconds before I died. Yes, I could have used some meds, but these are the situations I see which is the reason I am white mage only by and large. I admit I purposely didn't try to use meds, but I did Chakra. (Obviously since I counted I was proving something, if only to myself. Which is I can't ever not go white mage) Also, my monk doesn't suck, it has a black belt and full tantra and I do gear swap into arhat's etc. I agree if you play white mage aggressively and try to predict tp moves etc, it is a fun job that is just as challenging as anything else. Most people snooze through it though. As for true white mages, the whiny DDs who complain about blind etc obnoxiously just get the bandaids thrown at their heads.

[Reaux]

I see you've never played a MMO besides FFXI in your entire life.

Just because you don't agree doesn't make it untrue.

[Shiyo]

WOW - > 4 main healers, 10 classes

Rift - > 20 classes, 4 mainhealers.

FF14 - > like 6 classes, 2 main healers


wat

[Economizer]

And of course, White mages can (and should, and do) sleep, enfeeble and dispel stuff when other jobs more suited to it aren't around. I know I do.

I love Repose, it is like a giant target to wake up the mob and force the White Mage to kite a mob while main healing too.

In an ideal situation, a White Mage is Flashing the mob too, since you can avoid many TP moves this way. And Devotion other mages on a timer (gearing for this isn't the hard part, climbing into the shoes of the party member so you are in range is). And keeping Haste up with half the duration, Barspells up that like to wear when you blink, and Auspice and now Boost spells (although for the weak stuff I can ignore this if I'm being lazy, I'm not exactly waiting for Boost-STR to come out in a party aspect).

It doesn't help that half a White Mage's spells and abilities were designed to be used in the nostrils of a dragon in order to hit anyone in range.

Thieves who think party members get perma-flee and run in circles around a mob when they ready SATA have never tried to Curaga a group of people before, after, or during any combat - you will inevitably miss a party member or two even if you warn them, costing precious MP.

Of course, playing White Mage will feel much easier if you try to pull of the same things using a job that was only designed to blast a crater into the ground and occasionally apply band-aids, and then compare the two.

A good White Mage will look like a psychic genius who cures you to full health faster then it takes to use a cure spell the split-second after to take a fireball to the face, after managing to negate most of the damage of said fireball, and removing the burn effect that was left over. A incredibly good White Mage will also have Club capped to brutally murder any party members using yellow HP latent effects.

[Meyi]

I use Cure III outside of Abyssea still. Last I recalled, RDM and SCH got these spells as well.

I really don't see what the jobs are crying about.

Edit: And shouldn't RDM be relieved that they no longer need to refresh everyone in the party? Now they can spend more time wiffing with their swords.

[Reaux]

WOW - > 4 main healers, 10 classes

Rift - > 20 callings, 4 mainhealers.

FF14 - > like 6 classes, 2 main healers
wat

WoW 1 main healer = Priest, the rest are hybrids that don't ever match in healing prowess unless a Druid goes full healing spec.

Rift I havent played so I cannot talk about it.

FF14 1 main healer = Conjurer, Thaumaturge is a main enfeeble with some healing support: in fact most of it's heals are now single target only with higher MP/HP sacrifice.

[Sparthos]

Level BLU, the second best healer in FFXI.

[Jerbob]

Reaux makes an excellent point, in my opinion. FFXI is a game that needs to completely revamp how it sees casting classes working in parties. Red Mages and other hybrid casting jobs shouldn't have to resort to emulating a specialist's role in a party in order to be valuable. SCH is practically -designed- to try to do other job's roles better than they can, though it is admittedly having problems with healing currently. This is poor design.

In my opinion SE needs to do the opposite of what this suggestion proposes. Make hybrid jobs worth a spot in a party on their own merits. Give them unique enhancing or enfeebling effects that actually matter, just as Earthen Armour has earned Summoner a spot in some Voidwatch matches. Things like AoE Boost spells that WHM has should have gone to RDM and been made party member targettable - quick to cast, potentially powerful enhancements that would be unique to RDM. Likewise, Addle should have remained RDM exclusive.

And yeah, I'm REALLY not looking forward to Boost-STR. If they were party member targettable then it wouldn't be too awful, but SE has recently said that AoE self-target enhancing is supposed to have a "risk" attached to it so they won't change it. Ridiculous.

[Shiyo]

WoW 1 main healer = Priest, the rest are hybrids that don't ever match in healing prowess unless a Druid goes full healing spec.

Rift I havent played so I cannot talk about it.

FF14 1 main healer = Conjurer, Thaumaturge is a main enfeeble with some healing support: in fact most of it's heals are now single target only with higher MP/HP sacrifice.
LOL, you have obviously have not played WOW at all or FF14, we're done here. Cya.

[Economizer]

And yeah, I'm REALLY not looking forward to Boost-STR. If they were party member targettable then it wouldn't be too awful, but SE has recently said that AoE self-target enhancing is supposed to have a "risk" attached to it so they won't change it. Ridiculous.

I don't mind running in, its the cast time and even worse, the duration on these things. Okay, mainly the duration.

[Jerbob]

That's why I think it's so ridiculous - most white mages are able to tell when it's safe to run in and cast things (although when we've got bar-status, bar-element, auspice and boost-whatever to cast it's stretching the TP move window a little if they drop at bad times...) so the risk aspect isn't really a problem at all. Like you say, it's the time wasted.

I do have a problem running in, though, because it wastes time and if I'm busy then I can't always put things back up when they need to be back up. Keeping people alive and enfeeble-free is always going to be a higher priority to me than boosting attributes, though obviously bar-element is more critical. Casting from the back line on target would be quick and painless, less prone to lag spellcasting interrupts and the like, and because we already know when it's safe, there's no difference in the risk. I just wish SE could see that.

[Shiyo]

Level BLU, the second best healer in FFXI.
It's completely broken and retarded that blu is a better healer than SCH and RDM -_-

[Sparthos]

It's completely broken and retarded that blu is a better healer than SCH and RDM -_-

It may be odd but the viable healer everyone is whining for is there. SCH and RDM need an intermediate cure between 4 & 5 but in the meantime we're all free to use Blue Mage as a backup healer as it's more than capable of operating in the role - moreso with the addition of White Wind coming.

It isn't like SCH and RDM doesn't have advantages over BLU - Pro/Shell/Barspells being the most obvious.

[Zhronne]

WoW 1 main healer = Priest, the rest are hybrids that don't ever match in healing prowess unless a Druid goes full healing spec.
Lol? You clearly never played WoW or you played it like in the Vanilla days?
There are not 10 classes btw, you need to consider all the specs.
There are 10 "macro-classes", but each class has 3 different specializations.
For example take Priest, you can be a Shadow Priest (ranged dps), a Discipline Priest (damage mitigation healer) or a Holy Priest (your standard healer with a lot of AoEs etc).

Or take Druids: they can be Balance (ranged dps), Feral (tank or melee dps) or Restoration (healer).

Then you have Shamans: Elemental (ranged dps), Enhancement (melee dps), Restoration (healer).

That's a grand total of 5 different healers. Each has its pros and cons but all of them are "main healers" and while excelling in certain field, can be efficiently used in every circumstance.

It's the same with tanks, you have 4 of them: Feral Druid, Protection Paladin, Protection Warrior, Frost Death Knight.

Dunno where or when you got that info but it's wrong and has been wrong at least since The Burning Crusade expansion, if not earlier.

[Kimble]

Giving Cure V to RDM or SCH would just replace WHM as main healer. True WHM is better are aoe curing, etc. But in those type of events where that is an issue, you usually wouldn't have more than the tank on the mob anyways.

While cure IV might not be "enough" to be a main healer, its more than enough to support heal. You toss a Cure III or IV, WHM tosses a cure III or IV and whoever you are healing will most likely be back to full.

[Helel]

Giving Cure V to RDM or SCH would just replace WHM as main healer. True WHM is better are aoe curing, etc. But in those type of events where that is an issue, you usually wouldn't have more than the tank on the mob anyways.

While cure IV might not be "enough" to be a main healer, its more than enough to support heal. You toss a Cure III or IV, WHM tosses a cure III or IV and whoever you are healing will most likely be back to full.

Okay, except for the fact that any job going /whm has access to Cure IV. I'm not sure how this post addresses the issue of RDM or SCH being mediocre healers. You're basically saying it's okay for a DRK/WHM to have the same curing potential as a RDM (minus some cure potency gear). If that is indeed what you're arguing then fine, but I think most would agree something is a little off about that.

[Kimble]

If someone is coming DRK/WHM or DD/WHM at all, you have bigger problems.

And no, they wont have the same curing potency. Pretty sure RDM and SCH can wear a lot more cure potency gear than a DD/WHM.

They also want have barely any from of MP regain. No Refresh, no Sub, Most likely no Ballad.

[Sira]

If someone is coming DRK/WHM or DD/WHM at all, you have bigger problems.

And no, they wont have the same curing potency. Pretty sure RDM and SCH can wear a lot more cure potency gear than a DD/WHM.

They also want have barely any from of MP regain. No Refresh, no Sub, Most likely no Ballad.

i'll get back to you when sch can use roundel earring

[Shiyo]

BRD/WHM has 5% less cure potency than RDM, better buffs, more refresh, better debuffs.

BLM/WHM has more cure potency gear than SCH.

SMN/WHM has 15-20% more cure potency than SCH, 10-15% more than RDM.

cool

[Neisan_Quetz]

14% more of 46% is 50%.

cool

Next update Rdm caps without Add-on gear btw.

Your debuff argument would work if, you know, they didn't stack.

[Shiyo]

5% pants, 3% torque, 5% earring, 22% staff, 3% helm, 4% gloves is 46%?

Also the fact that non-healers have more cure potency than RDM's and SCH's is LOL in itself.

Void watch gear also might as well not exist, so don't count it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

4% Zenith pumps 46%.

Inb4 Fafnir is hard.

[Shiyo]

I forgot those exist, SMN and brd still have more cure potency ^_^

[Kimble]

If something is to much work for me to get = it doesnt exist.

[Kimble]

Notice how I said DD/WHM, no where did I compare it to SMN or BRD /WHM

[Neisan_Quetz]

That's cool, brd will never have a mp pool and Smn will keep complaining they're not main healers, again.

[Shiyo]

Inside abyssea their MP pool is fine, they can heal just as well as a RDM or SCH.

That's the entire point of this discussion, it's completely broken for a native healing job to have the same tier as /WHM. If you don't understand this you're blind or retarded.

SCH and RDM also cannot mainheal on voidwatch, only WHM can. If you think 1 healer out of 20 jobs = ok then please stop being dumb.

Is there only 1 DD job in every situation imaginable? No

Is there only 1 tank in every situation imaginable?? No

Is there only 1 healer in every situation imaginable? Yes

[Kimble]

Raise Cure IV to level 50. Problem solved.

I thought you all didn't want to be a main healer, only simply to "assist" the WHM in healing?

[Neisan_Quetz]

While I do think that by convention Rdm/Sch should get higher tier cures, for whatever reason SE feels this would either unbalance the jobs, or they're saving it for 96+. Also due to its inherent mechanics Cure V would probably end up being altered if it was given to both jobs, or they're going to make a 4.5 cure or something.

[Kimble]

Do I think it could be improved? Yes.

Do I think its as simple as adding Cure V to RDM and SCH? No.

Honestly, taking away the one thing that WHM is good at, will only make WHM useless.

[Shiyo]

They don't need to give RDM and SCH exact clones of cure5, just another cure to press that heals for 500+ when cure4 is on cooldown. Having to fall back on cure3 is completely retarded. A 800-900 hp cure would be ideal though and allow there to be more than just 1 main healer.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I don't feel it's the only thing Whm is good at in terms of healing (they still have better bars, new JA for MDT/MDB, aoe stat boosts/auspice/afflatus bonuses/benison/caress) but yea outside Cure VI is a waste as it stands. I agree they should (And stated they are) look into something but for now, it won't be this update.

[Shiyo]

I don't feel it's the only thing Whm is good at in terms of healing (they still have better bars, new JA for MDT/MDB, aoe stat boosts/auspice/afflatus bonuses/benison/caress) but yea outside Cure VI is a waste as it stands. I agree they should (And stated they are) look into something but for now, it won't be this update.
People who think cure5 is all WHM have are completley insane and stuck in 2006 or something tbh :/

[Kimble]

Didn't say that's all WHM is good at, but that is really their MAIN thing is to heal.

Focus on ACTUALLY making RDM a debuffer and give SCH more unique buffs and would make those jobs more desired than just bringing them to replace WHM as a healer.

Make RDM and SCH on par with WHM, all the RDM and SCH will than cry about how they are nothing but a "pink mage" Remember 75 cap?

[Sira]

didnt know that -cure cast time was useless.

[Rearden]

waitwaitwaitwait this is from page 1 but

Your WHM's sub /RDM? lol. Sad.

[Sira]

waitwaitwaitwait this is from page 1 but

Your WHM's sub /RDM? lol. Sad.

wait wait wait, why the fuck not?

[Rearden]

*get a rdm
*get a brd
*get a cor
*have a blm cast it on you
*sublimation is better than refresh
*stun is more useful than 1500mp

[Neisan_Quetz]

Inside unless you need ready access to dispel you probably don't need /RDM. Outside for curaga spam /sch wins.

Post here: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?fjob=1&mid=1292239426278472421&h=50&p=2#68

Or yea, get someone else give you refresh.

[Sira]

2 charges, less fast cast and weaker mp gain is all i see from /sch

[Uryu]

I just want to purpose a suggestion for the never ending Cure V debate. I will try to be as unbiased as possible.
-Give RDM Cure V
-Give SCH Cure V under Addendum: White.
-Reduce Potency of High Tier Cure spells, In my opinion Cure V+, but Possibly Cure IV+ (Possibly a 5-10% Reduction)
-Give WHM a Job Trait @50 That Negates The High Tier Cure Reduction

In Conclusion...
RDM & SCH receive Cure V to "Help" Heal Faster... by being able to switch between spells during cool down times. Their still only able to help heal as opposed to replace a WHM.
WHM, on the other hand, will still be the best at it's job with Misery/Solace benefits and better more efficient healers.
RDM and SCH have Cure V but can not replace a WHM. I feel it wouldn't break the balance between jobs.

What do you guys think? In my opinion I feel it's fair?
Instead of a yes-no these jobs do/don't deserve the spell.

[Ank]

So give cure v but gimp it and cure iv?

I spose its not as bad as the guy that thinks people should randomly and suddenly die without a whm in trade for cure v.

[Kimble]

So give cure v but gimp it and cure iv?

I spose its not as bad as the guy that thinks people should randomly and suddenly die without a whm in trade for cure v.

Not sure if this is suppose to be a remark to me but I never said you couldnt do anything without Cure V lol.

[Ank]

Nah. I was mostly being facetious, but post #23 or so if you're curious

[Economizer]

2 charges, less fast cast and weaker mp gain is all i see from /sch

Light Arts.

That's the reason why Scholar is better then Red Mage as a sub for White Mage. You can already cap casting time, and the recast time is the same. You'll save more MP with the Light Arts MP cost reduction then anything /RDM will give you.

[Reaux]

I do love that everyone skipped over the section where I mention SCH and RDM using their current abilities to assist the party as a whole, outside of curing. Nice dodge.

[Leonlionheart]

Light Arts.

That's the reason why Scholar is better then Red Mage as a sub for White Mage. You can already cap casting time, and the recast time is the same. You'll save more MP with the Light Arts MP cost reduction then anything /RDM will give you.

Pretty much this.

I get asked to /RDM some times, and unless someone says I'll be tanking as WHM with Phalanx, then I ALWAYS ALWAYS turn them down.

I've gone /RDM. I've gone /SCH. I've seen both as a MP sponge. /SCH is far and away the most MP efficient sub job for WHM (your Cure V's cost 13 MP less, around 70 MP per Cure V with a cure potency set worth a damn). After that, you get Sublimation. I never run out of MP unless we're seriously getting our ass handed to us, and in that case there's nothing that /RDM will gain you- other than Phalanx.

[SpankWustler]

I do love that everyone skipped over the section where I mention SCH and RDM using their current abilities to assist the party as a whole, outside of curing. Nice dodge.

In the case of Scholar, their healing/support ability is basically reading a white book to become a less awful White Mage in exchange for becoming a really awful Black Mage.

Adloquium sucks when anyone is able to actually engage for TP. Weather effects do next to nothing for melee jobs.

Currently, a Scholar's unique abilities for support when it's time for people to hit things with things include "apologizing to the group" and "I guess I'll go feed my cat while you guys take care of this".

[Economizer]

I never run out of MP unless we're seriously getting our ass handed to us, and in that case there's nothing that /RDM will gain you- other than Phalanx.

And if you do get your ass handed to you, those two strats will help you raise an entire party solo without having to wait for recasts. Not to mention that /SCH means you can Aspir stuff for about 100-200 MP a pop - situational, but it makes a big difference when you can use it. Last, there is Campaign Battle, where Scholar is a better healer then White Mage - even if you want to NIN or DNC sub, you'll miss having /SCH for even an ounce of that superior cure power. Unless you are allowed to melee things for MP, /SCH is almost required for White Mage.

I don't know about others, but I feel gimped when I can't /SCH in a party situation - unless I'm holding at least two clubs with pieces of baby Ruszor brains splattered on them.

[Feliciaa]

Abyssea is done. There is no reason for Rdm or sch to need cure V with the amount of +cure potency coming this update and the lack of abyssite to give people insane amounts of HP.

[cidbahamut]

Skipping over 15 pages of inevitable bickering.

I don't want those WHM JAs simply because I'm too lazy to learn how to make use of them and overhaul my macro palette to incorporate them, especially to enhance a support job I don't like to use if I can avoid it. If I wanted all of White Mage's toys I would have leveled the job beyond 49.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Abyssea is done. There is no reason for Rdm or sch to need cure V with the amount of +cure potency coming this update and the lack of abyssite to give people insane amounts of HP.

VoidWatch is the new thing, and Cure IV isn't good enough there either so....

PS. The new gear makes getting 50% easy, but RDM and SCH could get ~43% anyway, so the remainder wont aid on a spell so crap as Cure IV. If they don't want to add Cure V to RDM or SCH up the actual cap on Cure IV.

[SpankWustler]

Abyssea is done. There is no reason for Rdm or sch to need cure V with the amount of +cure potency coming this update and the lack of abyssite to give people insane amounts of HP.

The issue was never really the amount of maximum Hit Points. I would compare that to an optical illusion.

Some stuff in Voidwatch hits just as hard as stuff in Abyssea did, except we have lower maximum Hit Points.

It is totally true that Red Mage and Scholar heal just fine on old content, however, and maybe this is actually the balance that SE wants. I wish they would come out and that state their intention in this case, however, so I could post an "Okay."-face meme and move on.

[Raksha]

I do love that everyone skipped over the section where I mention SCH and RDM using their current abilities to assist the party as a whole, outside of curing. Nice dodge.

Which tools would that be? AoE stoneskin? anyone /sch can cover that, including whm. Haste? WHM or BRD can cover that too. AoE refresh? You'd be better off with a BRD, if you needed extra refresh at all. AoE phalanx? insignificant on anything worth fighting. Crowd control? BLM or RDM does this better, and will especially do it better in the next update when it/they get breakga. Regain spell is a joke, animus spells are a joke.

If you have a tank and a WHM already, you'd be much better off adding a BRD or COR or BLM before adding a SCH.

[Economizer]

I don't want those WHM JAs simply because I'm too lazy to learn how to make use of them

If other jobs were to be able to get it, just use Afflatus Solace whenever it isn't up (generally every two hours - you shouldn't bother macroing it). Afflatus Misery is very, very situational and in need of buffs - but the bottom line is that you would have to struggle to come up with a reason to use it over Afflatus Solace at all if you only had White Mage's subable abilities. I suppose you could have a White Mage Auspice everyone using Misery?

There is a strong basis for job abilities that can only be used on a main job, or are weakened by having them subbed, and I think that Afflatus stances definitely should fit this. Even if other jobs were to suddenly get Afflatus stances, Solace should be appropriately downgraded for this - like only giving a 10% cureskin bonus and no MDB to barspells. Perhaps if SE wrongly decides to give jobs that are crappy melee like BLM and SCH Staff WS natively, Afflatus stances will be added to /WHM in order to make it competitive with /RDM and /SCH.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

If other jobs were to be able to get it, just use Afflatus Solace whenever it isn't up (generally every two hours - you shouldn't bother macroing it). Afflatus Misery is very, very situational and in need of buffs - but the bottom line is that you would have to struggle to come up with a reason to use it over Afflatus Solace at all if you only had White Mage's subable abilities. I suppose you could have a White Mage Auspice everyone using Misery?

There is a strong basis for job abilities that can only be used on a main job, or are weakened by having them subbed, and I think that Afflatus stances definitely should fit this. Even if other jobs were to suddenly get Afflatus stances, Solace should be appropriately downgraded for this - like only giving a 10% cureskin bonus and no MDB to barspells. Perhaps if SE wrongly decides to give jobs that are crappy melee like BLM and SCH Staff WS natively, Afflatus stances will be added to /WHM in order to make it competitive with /RDM and /SCH.

Convert was another JA that should have been blocked, but alas it was not.

[Ophannus]

They could give RDM/PLD/SCH cure 5 but just modify the formula so that only WHM benefits from the VIT term in the formula. This would lower Cure5's potency a decent amount. They could take it a step further and lower the Healing Skill and MND terms for PLD/SCH/RDM's Cure 5 also. This would be akin to the CHR nerf on Waltzes for /DNC. Additionally they could remove the massively reduced Enmity on Cure 5 for those jobs so that Cure 5 would be even riskier for Cure 5 compared to when a WHM casts it. The reduction of potency and the enmity would make Cure 5 for RDM/SCH/PLD more like a more expensive Cure 4.5 with tons of enmity. As it stands now even DRG's restoring breat is more potent than Cure 4, as my Wyvern heals me for 650ish with the right gear/exp bonus and we're getting another Wyvern Breath Enhancment piece to increase that further. Having only one job be the best healer is like how it was with only RDM with Refresh but then they added Ballad/Evoker Roll/Aspir Samba/Diabolos Favor. etc

[Neisan_Quetz]

The only one one of those jobs getting an better-than-whm in terms of amount cured off (whm still has cureskin with solace up) would be Sch with Aurastorm and/or Rapture up I believe, removing the enmity reduction and the vit term is fair enough imo if they were going to hand it out to other jobs.

[Sama]

Would RDM + Cure V make WHM unemployed?

[Dirtyfinger]

RDM won't replace WHM if given C5 as RDM won't have access to AS or as high potency. One of the main reasons why I'd like to see RDM get C5 is because C4 has huge enmity gain, which meant you'd have to use a pretty serious -enm set if you needed to spam it, and that would mean less hp is cured per mp (and your avg DD's hp is increasing every level update).

All mages use cure spells, whether it be blm, blu or rdm, and it would be a little bit strange knowing a blm/whm or even blm/rdm has access to the same cure spell as a lv99 rdm. RDM needs a new cure spell as they wouldn't have had one for over 50 levels.

[Economizer]

Convert was another JA that should have been blocked, but alas it was not.

This is a massive matter of opinion. Considering that /SCH is better for MP usage for any job, the only people that would be hurt by losing /RDM convert would be Black Mages trying to keep Manawall up, not White Mages that everyone seems to love to hate on the forums.

I know that it isn't sub usable because of job restrictions, not because of other restrictions, but Composure is a much more useful ability then Convert, but it isn't subable because it is at the just out of reach level 50.

If you don't want Convert to be sub usable, I suggest we switch the levels at which Red Mage gets Composure and Convert. I'll take Composure from /RDM any day over Convert. If you think this is a horrible idea and a bad trade, that's because it is - Composure is Red Mage's non-sub usable ability.

All that said, I think that Convert is due for a buff - a 10-20% bonus of HP/MP converted would be a nice job trait for Red Mage to get at higher levels, but wouldn't replace the effect on the Red Mage Mythic.


Would RDM + Cure V make WHM unemployed?

Many people disagree with me, but I think it would. Most of White Mage's status removal is sub usable, and many of the other benefits of a White Mage are efficiency curing and a slight edge on magic defense. Outside of weird proc systems, this would mean that people would just bring a Red Mage to events because nobody actually cares if the mage main healing has an easy job or not - having to work slightly harder to keep people alive doesn't matter if you can still reliably do it.

Further, if RDM/SCH was viable and Red Mage got Cure V, Scholars would never stop complaining if they saw Red Mage get Cure V and they didn't. If you think RDM/SCH would provide significant competition to White Mage, SCH/RDM is even worse.

Outside of situational events where Curaga spam is important, White Mage would be left with Auspice and Boost-STAT spells, again, just tools that make the fight easier without being necessary, and totally outranked in usefulness by Refresh II and Dia III, among the many other things Red Mage is better at.

[FrankReynolds]

All that said, I think that Convert is due for a buff - a 10-20% bonus of HP/MP converted would be a nice job trait for Red Mage to get at higher levels, but wouldn't replace the effect on the Red Mage Mythic.

This. It would be nice if they made convert so that it could take you above MP cap and leave you there until you spent the mp.

[Economizer]

This. It would be nice if they made convert so that it could take you above MP cap and leave you there until you spent the mp.

This isn't exactly what I meant (I mean if you have 1000/1500HP and 10/1200MP, and convert, you will have 12/1500HP, and 1200/1200MP, for example), but I suppose this could be done too.

While I think that all the Red Mages suggesting that it is unfair that other jobs can get Convert are being incredibly unreasonable, a buff for Red Mage main (NOT a gimp for /RDM) is definitely in order, beyond the choice of being able to merit it.

[Soranika]

With demands like these, I'd like to demand that SE makes SMN a viable subjob again by removing subjob level limitations from avatars and have them based the man job level, regardless of SMN subjob level. amirite!?

[Leonlionheart]

With demands like these, I'd like to demand that SE makes SMN a viable subjob again by removing subjob level limitations from avatars and have them based the man job level, regardless of SMN subjob level. amirite!?

I don't think that would make it a viable sub job

[Sparthos]

Would RDM + Cure V make WHM unemployed?

The short answer is yes.

Afflatus Solace and the other WHM unique tools are not enough to keep RDM or SCH from overtaking WHM if if Cure V went usable across all classes.

This doesn't mean that RDM and SCH don't need an alternate cure to toggle but it can't be Cure V.

[Soranika]

I don't think that would make it a viable sub job
Yeah, you're probably right. On the plus side when level cap hits 99, SMN subjob will have access to hastega. That's a huge deal considering SCH already can do aoe stone skin and phalanx.... well would be a huge deal if people cared for aoe haste still.

[Zatias]

SMN Hastega lasts too short at subjob level ;( Waste of MP.

[Rearden]

If RDM got Cure V I'd relevel my WHM mules so they were useful again.

[Sira]

And if you do get your ass handed to you, those two strats will help you raise an entire party solo without having to wait for recasts.
when did this happen? i never got that memo...

[SpankWustler]

Would RDM + Cure V make WHM unemployed?

Less vital, I'm sure, but I think White Mage would retain a place in the imaginary community of imaginary jobs that make up Vana'diel's imaginary monster-slaying workforce.

Assuming all jobs can cap eventually Cure Potency (seems like a safe assumption) and thus ideal equipment (although I'm low-balling a bit on the end result, because I don't know the exact number for all jobs and for the point I want to make it's fine if White Mage's extra 50 to 100-ish HP healed is not included):

Red Mage - Cure V - 135 MP - 1050 HP restored

Scholar - Cure V - 121 MP (Light Arts) - 1189 HP restored (Light Weather)

White Mage - Cure V - 83 MP (if the full amount of HP is restored) - 1050 HP restored - 367 Stoneskin

There's a lot of stuff that affects casting time and recast, so I'll just say that all three of these jobs are really good at reducing casting time in their own ways and that's the reason Blue Mage isn't in this running. White Mage probably has the longest recasts by a small amount, and Scholar would have a miserable cast time if Rapture were to be included.

This doesn't take things like the jobs subbing each other, Light Weather being usable on other folks, or MP recovery abilities into account, but on paper White Mage is clearly ahead when repeatedly curing people in Voidwatch and similarly difficult content.

I'll readily admit that all three would be pretty much the same for marathon content like NeoDynamis, with Red Mage winning out against the fodder, White Mage winning out against the few challenging things that pop up, and Scholar being better at neither yet somehow inspiring complaints from everybody because Scholar produces the highest numbers in the chat log.

For Abyssea, I don't know. There's such a variance in content and buffs there that I can't even guess. MP recovery is as irrelevant there as anything else. Really, the only thing that would make you run out of MP is going on Red Mage to repeatedly cast Cure V while also casting Blizzard IV at every opportunity.

As for my personal feelers:

A big part of it is that I see most not-Voidwatch content as something a bro or bro-ette should be able to grab a smattering of friends and do as long as basic roles are filled, and that's currently true in all aspects except for healing. Healing in new content is often White Mage or bust. Abyssea is a glaring example of this at work.

In my ideal world, though, White Mage would have gotten meaningful healing growth along with a useful Cure VI and everyone with Cure progression would have Cure V or some unique healing spell that fits each job. I'd rather everybody have something good than one bro have something of dubious use and everyone else have nothing.

[Sira]

after seeing that i realize it would be kind of ridiculous to have c5 on sch with rapture and light weather going

[SpankWustler]

after seeing that i realize it would be kind of ridiculous to have c5 on sch with rapture and light weather going

Yeah, the ability to cure more HP than someone has through cumbersome spells and abilities rather than providing a Stoneskin effect by clicking one button every half-hour or so is pretty epic.

[Sira]

could still cure more than whm with just rapture, which with how we are borderlined forced to use now, wouldnt change much with the addition of cure 5, we've been using rapture and we will continue using rapture (when needed) if sch were to get cure 5.

[Vortex]

Yeah, you're probably right. On the plus side when level cap hits 99, SMN subjob will have access to hastega. That's a huge deal considering SCH already can do aoe stone skin and phalanx.... well would be a huge deal if people cared for aoe haste still.

LOL why in gods name would anyone sub /smn for sch, that has got to be the dumbest thing ever, no matter what /smn gets subed nothing can ever make it appealing. they are fine as /rdm and in some sitations /blm even /whm has uses if you are purely support/healing only for haste mainly. it's bad enough whms sub rdm.

But back on topic this crap will never end,

WHM's primary job is to HEAL AND SUPPORT why the hell do people keep trying to make it useless by asking for their traits if you want cure 5 PLAY WHITE MAGE for crying out loud, rdm is not ment to fully keep everyone cured, neither is SCH they are made to be hybrids how many times do we have to keep going to this "waaa i want cure 5 because i want my hybrid job to be better then the jobs that are meant to do it mainly"

[Sira]

its not only just the potency of the spell, its the hate values that are tagged on cure 4

and by that knowledge of what you are saying, sch should stop curing, and hell nuking since they are evidently inferior to blm as well, and if we wanted to nuke we should be playing blm. i love your logic.

[Zhronne]

We're still at square 1 with this discussion.
I don't think anybody denies the fact that (especially by the time level 99 will be out) RDM and SCH need something stronger than Cure IV to add to their arsenal, for several reasons which have all been explained in this thread.

At the same time though, giving them Cure V might be "a bit too much", and that's because there's too wide of a gap between CIV and CV.



There aren't many solutions here. Either they create a new spell especially for RDM or SCH (which is unlikely imho) or they give them a gimped CV, similar to what happens to some JAs that get gimped when used by other jobs/subs.

[Zhronne]

and hell nuking since they are evidently inferior to blm as well
It's situational to what you have to do (SCH has issues with AoE spells etc) but altough it requires much more effort in skills and gear compared to BLM, SCH can actually be as good or even better than BLM if we're talking about damage throughput and mana spent.

Or at least things used to be that way at level 75, you can find many competent player in both jobs saying it. Doubt things have changed that much at 90, aside from obvious differences in JAs (mana wall for example) and AoE spells.

[Vortex]

It's situational to what you have to do (SCH has issues with AoE spells etc) but altough it requires much more effort in skills and gear compared to BLM, SCH can actually be as good or even better than BLM if we're talking about damage throughput and mana spent.

Or at least things used to be that way at level 75, you can find many competent player in both jobs saying it. Doubt things have changed that much at 90, aside from obvious differences in JAs (mana wall for example) and AoE spells.

Thing you have to understand is that people don't like jobs that require to much thinking, they want the one macro solves all jobs in order to function is this game, which is why people keep crying over cure 5, it's the same problem with sch vs blm, sch actually does MORE damage then blm with exact same nukes but they need to prep the spell which requires thinking, all people want is every thing handed to them, but every so often there will always be some person whining that things are not easy enough for them.

[Zhronne]

Yes but aside from discussions concerning who's stronger between SCH and BLM, the thing is that either way they're pretty close, even if SCH were a bit worse, the difference wouldn't be huge.
Can the same be said for WHM and SCH? And the answer is no of course, and it's the point of what people have been saying in this thread so far.

I think it's easy to understand the concerns of who doesn't want to see C5 given to other classes, but at the same time it should be easy for the other side of the fence to understand that C4 is not enough, period. And we go back to my previous post on page 18 :D

[Vortex]

Yes but aside from discussions concerning who's stronger between SCH and BLM, the thing is that either way they're pretty close, even if SCH were a bit worse, the difference wouldn't be huge.
Can the same be said for WHM and SCH? And the answer is no of course, and it's the point of what people have been saying in this thread so far.

I think it's easy to understand the concerns of who doesn't want to see C5 given to other classes, but at the same time it should be easy for the other side of the fence to understand that C4 is not enough, period. And we go back to my previous post on page 18 :D


Well i agree that cure IV is not enough most of the time, but giving them cure 5 is redundent they already said they would look into giving them a "stronger" cure, but not exactly cure 5 maybe this is one of those things that should just be waited out, as a Main whm, i absolutly disped the 75 days where peopel were saying whm was useless etc because all you needed was a rdm/whm to solve everything, i am GLAD they fixed that issue and now we have the rdm whining that they want that over powerdness back, well to bad.

The only thing that bothers me about sch is stratagems not having aoe options for elemental magic ( i mean come on, the guy in the AF hat fight can do them). i imagine the MP cost with be absurd but i think it would work.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

This is a massive matter of opinion. Considering that /SCH is better for MP usage for any job, the only people that would be hurt by losing /RDM convert would be Black Mages trying to keep Manawall up, not White Mages that everyone seems to love to hate on the forums.

I know that it isn't sub usable because of job restrictions, not because of other restrictions, but Composure is a much more useful ability then Convert, but it isn't subable because it is at the just out of reach level 50.

If you don't want Convert to be sub usable, I suggest we switch the levels at which Red Mage gets Composure and Convert. I'll take Composure from /RDM any day over Convert. If you think this is a horrible idea and a bad trade, that's because it is - Composure is Red Mage's non-sub usable ability.

All that said, I think that Convert is due for a buff - a 10-20% bonus of HP/MP converted would be a nice job trait for Red Mage to get at higher levels, but wouldn't replace the effect on the Red Mage Mythic.

Hmm. You DON'T need to have at least one JA from each job, the proof is in NIN and WHM who give you no real JA's and if you want to compare Divine Seal with Convert it's lacklustre at best.

Fact of the matter is Convert was one of RDM's biggest buffs outside of Composure, and I'm fine with subjobs getting it, but they should NOT have got it at the same potency. It's a subjob so it should have been half the potency like with most the JA's.

Soul Eater - Half the potency, full cost.
Accession - 3x the recast duration

and so on.

Instead pretty much everything that RDM had as unique was passed on, and will continue to be passed on until lvl. 99 and to counteract this all they got was Refresh II.

[Zhronne]

like with most the JA's.
Most?
I would have wrote "some" rather than "most".

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Most?
I would have wrote "some" rather than "most".

The only ones that were not gimped were the ones that are not all that impressive.

[Zhronne]

The only ones that were not gimped were the ones that are not all that impressive.
I kinda agree. Those that weren't nerfed is mostly because 1) they aren't impressing, 2) They need JSE/Merits to be good.
But still, they are the great majority of JAs. Just a few ones have been gimped.
So I stand by my previous statement of "some" being better than "most" :p

[Soranika]

LOL why in gods name would anyone sub /smn for sch, that has got to be the dumbest thing ever, no matter what /smn gets subed nothing can ever make it appealing. they are fine as /rdm and in some sitations /blm even /whm has uses if you are purely support/healing only for haste mainly. it's bad enough whms sub rdm.

But back on topic this crap will never end,

WHM's primary job is to HEAL AND SUPPORT why the hell do people keep trying to make it useless by asking for their traits if you want cure 5 PLAY WHITE MAGE for crying out loud, rdm is not ment to fully keep everyone cured, neither is SCH they are made to be hybrids how many times do we have to keep going to this "waaa i want cure 5 because i want my hybrid job to be better then the jobs that are meant to do it mainly"
lol it was a joke. /smn use to be the big thing years ago before WoTG because of the Boost MP trait. Surely you remember that... No?

[SpankWustler]

could still cure more than whm with just rapture, which with how we are borderlined forced to use now, wouldnt change much with the addition of cure 5, we've been using rapture and we will continue using rapture (when needed) if sch were to get cure 5.

I agree with the statement that it would cure a vast amount of HP. I guess this might make some people feel weird on an aesthetic level?

I just wonder when restoring that much HP would actually be useful, excluding Abyssea. Especially accounting for the time required to use a job ability when someone is missing 1500-2000 HP. Maybe combining it with Ascension for something that uses 10,000 needles-type attacks regularly or a similar situation, but that seems pretty niche.

[Economizer]

Maybe combining it with Ascension

This isn't something I commonly think of... If Scholar gets Cure V, they'll probably get Accession for it, won't they? I don't even want to think about the balance implications around this.


Hmm. You DON'T need to have at least one JA from each job, the proof is in NIN and WHM who give you no real JA's and if you want to compare Divine Seal with Convert it's lacklustre at best.

Fact of the matter is Convert was one of RDM's biggest buffs outside of Composure, and I'm fine with subjobs getting it, but they should NOT have got it at the same potency. It's a subjob so it should have been half the potency like with most the JA's.


The only ones that were not gimped were the ones that are not all that impressive.

Convert is not that impressive. As it has been said by many intelligent people here, in some depth, subbing Scholar is generally a bit more impressive then Convert AND self Refresh. Nerfing this unnecessarily makes Red Mage a weaker sub, which is also a major part of balance.

Ninja has other things it gives that aren't job abilities. So does White Mage. But Divine Seal is pretty useful, considering that many of the other buffs White Mage gives as a sub aren't things Red Mage can generally make use of (ignoring White Mage's substantial spell list). Of course, White Mage gets buffs to it at higher levels that make it more useful to cast.

But, like I said in the comment you quoted, I believe that like stuff like Divine Seal, Red Mage should get a buff to Convert. This retains the incentives to sub Red Mage - particularly for Black Mage which gets the most usage out of subbing Red Mage for Convert, while giving Red Mage a very fair buff to Convert.

If you still think that Red Mage getting a buff to Convert is an unacceptable better solution (you don't necessarily have to agree with the numbers I provided earlier) then gimping everyone who subs Red Mage, I think there may be more problems here then an issue with other people getting the same strength Convert that Red Mages main jobbing the ability get.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

This isn't something I commonly think of... If Scholar gets Cure V, they'll probably get Accession for it, won't they? I don't even want to think about the balance implications around this.

Convert is not that impressive. As it has been said by many intelligent people here, in some depth, subbing Scholar is generally a bit more impressive then Convert AND self Refresh. Nerfing this unnecessarily makes Red Mage a weaker sub, which is also a major part of balance.

Ninja has other things it gives that aren't job abilities. So does White Mage. But Divine Seal is pretty useful, considering that many of the other buffs White Mage gives as a sub aren't things Red Mage can generally make use of (ignoring White Mage's substantial spell list). Of course, White Mage gets buffs to it at higher levels that make it more useful to cast.

But, like I said in the comment you quoted, I believe that like stuff like Divine Seal, Red Mage should get a buff to Convert. This retains the incentives to sub Red Mage - particularly for Black Mage which gets the most usage out of subbing Red Mage for Convert, while giving Red Mage a very fair buff to Convert.

If you still think that Red Mage getting a buff to Convert is an unacceptable better solution (you don't necessarily have to agree with the numbers I provided earlier) then gimping everyone who subs Red Mage, I think there may be more problems here then an issue with other people getting the same strength Convert that Red Mages main jobbing the ability get.

I'm fine with a buff for RDM main, I'll ignore the insult you threw in your comment.

[Raksha]

This isn't something I commonly think of... If Scholar gets Cure V, they'll probably get Accession for it, won't they? I don't even want to think about the balance implications around this.


We can more or less do this already with acession+rapture cure4.

If you have a decent enmity set and tanks that dont suck enmity is rarely a problem either.

SE could always just make cure5 not stack with accession, but then WHM/SCH wouldnt be able to do it either. how does that sit with you?

[SpankWustler]

This isn't something I commonly think of... If Scholar gets Cure V, they'll probably get Accession for it, won't they? I don't even want to think about the balance implications around this.

That also means White Mage would be able to use Ascension with Cure V, most likely, so balance between jobs probably wouldn't change too much.

I shudder to think what Tier III of Voidwatch would be like to compensate for this level of healing ability, though. There's already a monster that uses straight-up Area of Effect death on the test server. No damage. No timer. Just enough time to stun, then BAM! DEATH! I think it's the praying mantis.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Could just give it to RDM at 99 that way SCH wouldn't get it until 106.

(Just joking)

[noodles355]

BRD/WHM has 5% less cure potency than RDM, better buffs, more refresh, better debuffs.More refresh isn't really an issue. Best possible refresh a bard can get for himself is 14 without Empyrean Harp or Gjallerhorn. Best Rdm can get is 13.

And actually that 5% Cure potency will outweigh the 1% refresh. It'll take 88 ticks to get an extra cure spell off, of 264 seconds. And if you're spamming Cure4 during that time, the one extra C4 you get for free at the end (assuming you run out of mp at the same time) wont be enough to out-cure the rdm's higher potency ones.
Furthermore, if spamming C4 like that you will run of MP first due to a lower MP pool and no Convert.
And on top of that you're never cure spamming in that situation anyway and MP wont be an issue on either job so potency wins.

And then we get onto the other aspects. Brd is a better buffer, well no shit. It was designed as a party support job. Bard is not a better debuffer than Red Mage. Elegy is 50% Slow. AF3+2 body Slow II caps at 49%. Saboteur AF3+2 body Slow II with AF3+2 hands caps at 108% Slow and it's duration is longer unresisted than the Saboteur recast.

Even if you only have 3/5 Slow II merits (Low 25~%, Caps 37%~, let's average 30% against a hard NM), with Saboteur and AF3+2 hands/body that's still 90% Slow against a NM, which is significantly higher than Carnage Elegy.

[Economizer]

We can more or less do this already with acession+rapture cure4.

If you have a decent enmity set and tanks that dont suck enmity is rarely a problem either.

SE could always just make cure5 not stack with accession, but then WHM/SCH wouldnt be able to do it either. how does that sit with you?

Aside from the bit about enmity - which I also totally didn't think about - these are all reasons I didn't really want to think about it over half an hour ago. I probably overreacted a bit too over all the brain hurt. Definitely probably.

Generally, I think that a) If Scholar gets Cure V, it should be able to Accession it and b) Accession probably is the reason at the very, very bottom of the list to give or not give Scholar the spell.

I don't think that WHM/SCH being able to Accession Cure V would be that big a deal, since White Mage has Curaga IV already. Accession is more of an issue for Scholar which can use it more, but just like Curaga for White Mage, I don't really expect Accession cures to be used much.

The main thing Accession has going for it is alliance targeting though (to be honest, I wish Curaga could do more then just party target too, but that's because I want to nuke the everliving #̶̧̳ͪ̈̍ͭ̓ͣ̀ͭͣ͜$̷͍͖͖͖̊̏ͯ̑%͑̿̍̐ͫ̎͌͜͏̟̺̜̱̱̥*̗̼̖̯̤́̆ͩͣ͟ͅ out of undead mobs). This would be the big part where balance comes in I suppose?

Now if there was ever an argument for Scholar to get Cure V, it would probably be Campaign Battle. Divine Seal + AOE Cure V on everything ever? I just wish more NPCs would work like Campaign Battle NPCs do when it comes to getting Accession. Sure, you get massive amounts of enmity, but it feels good watching twenty or so things get hit by a cure.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

ISTM that a big part of the resistance to giving other jobs cure 5 is that it's the best cure, period. It's not just better than the ones below it, it's *also* better than the one *above* it.

So my solution is simple: nerf cure 5. Not so much that it becomes worthless, but enough to make it a simple progression from existing cures and not the god of efficiency, hate avoidance, and everything else. Improve cure 6 so that it's not just the thing you might use while cure 5 is on recast (if cure 5 becomes smaller and also possibly cheaper, cure 6 could become cheaper without becoming smaller, for example).

Once cure 5 is just another cure, not the one perfect cure, then it's fine to give it to other jobs.

WHMs would have more than one cure they might *actually want* to use and RDM and SCH have at least one cure they *can* use for more than trivial amounts of healing.

In the meantime, since WHM keep Afflatus, they'd still be the best, but not the only (except for the hardest cutting-edge content where the best basically *is* the only, but RDM and SCH might have other uses in those fights).