Hvergelmir WTF SE

[Soulrunner]

This just in from Dat miners
Hvergelmir: Emphy Staff

50 Kukulkan fangs

50 Sedna Tusks

(75) Azdaja Horns (wtf) +130 mp

Dat mined
(???) ?????? = +140 mp and bonus to some weaponskill damage

Are your programmers drunk? or functionally retarded? This is a mage staff specifically for SMN, BLM, SCH. When is the last time you saw any of those jobs melee? Put some mage stats on that thing INT MND Conserve mp, MATT, Macc. In all the years i've played this game SE has never gotten a single mage weapon right.

Yes I am building one, it's my first quested weapon ever, I started it in good faith that SE was going somewhere with this. I am pissed, there is no reason for this kind of incompetence especially from a Japanese company that specializes in developing games. I trust this is a joke, a not very funny one told by someone who thinks funerals are funny or enjoys stabbing himself. Please fix it now before it's forgotten like the Relic and Mythic staves and clubs which are equally unfunny jokes. Oh and fire that programmer.

BTW I only speak up on forums when something really irritates me or is just not right, This issue has accomplished both of those conditions.

[Alhanelem]

Old thread is old. If you thought that it was going to be an OMG magey stats weapon at 95 or 99, you were kidding yourself.

It has it's uses and the weaponskill is great. But it was silly of you to expect it to suddenly transform into a +XX MAB -X perp cost +X INT staff.

It might irritate you, but it's not "just not right." If you wanted a "buff stats" weapon, you should have started working on a mythic.'

All relic and empyrean weapons were built to serve a few functions:

-to be the strongest physical weapons of that weapon type;

-to have a special weapon skill

-to have a stat boost that directly benefits that weapon skill (empyrean weapons).

The mod for Myrkr is max MP; so the staff boosts max MP. Summoners can make great use of this weapon under certian circumstances. The other two jobs also can, but you're probably just going to use TP wings in abyssea to activate the WS. I daresay that Myrkr is so useful that it is worth bringing a TP wing to use. good MP restore and cure status effects.

There is a whole massive thread about making superweapons with magey bonuses, you should just go read that. For this specific issue, you set your expectations way too high for SE. However, those of us who had a reason prior to this coming update to have that staff, it simply makes the existing benefits better and we have no complaints.

[Yugl]

Stats on Empyrean weapons follow their WS's respective modifiers. Wanna guess why that has mega MP?

[Alhanelem]

No guessing is necessary, since I already explained why. :p

Since the amount of MP restored with Myrkr depends on your max MP, that makes max MP effectively the mod for the WS. Therefore the +140 MP (and that is the biggest boost to MP on any item in the game as far as I know).

[Economizer]

Why'd you quest something that was obviously for melee if you wanted something with casting stats?


Please fix it now before it's forgotten like the Relic and Mythic staves and clubs which are equally unfunny jokes.

The mythic Staff for Summoner has wonderful amounts of avatar perp cost down on it. The mythic club is amazing for White Mages removing status debuffs. The relic club is the single biggest game changer for White Mage available. None of these things are a joke.

The Empyrean staff gives you a ton of MP without missing ever, making it a substantial upgrade from Spirit Taker. Even if you were to just macro it in, hit a mob six or seven time, and use the weapon skill, this would still help you do more damage then any staff weapon skill could do, since getting 200-500 MP per 100TP (outside Abyssea) will allow you to unleash ever more damage.

[Soulrunner]

I feel bad because next month I will be wasting my ls's time as they farm 50 Kuk fangs for me to upgrade to sedna tusk stage, Ever feel stupid for that kind of thing? Feels terrible, and yes I did hope SE was going to make the weapon worth the trouble. Is it too much to ask SE to make a weapon mages can use to completely eliminate elemental staves once and for all? No, in fact if not this weapon something soon but why not this weapon, after jumping through hell to get it. Normally i'm SE's biggest fan, when updates are announced everyone's all gloom and doom "Oh no we have to learn to play the game now." I'm the one cheering and optimistically hoping for better even if all I get is shit. It's not too much to ask SE to do a good job for once. I for one want SE to get on here and explain themselves, that is not too much to ask.

[Kimble]

Clearly your LS should just refuse to do it then since its a waste of everyones time

[Sparthos]

Not this argument again.

SE has the twisted idea that mages will melee and so Hvergelmir was born from the ashes of Claustrum before it.

[Ophannus]

Not sure why anyone would do Empyrean Staff. If you want the WS do the WoE one, the max MP thing won't make MUCH of a diff to a SMN that has tons of MP, just macro in MP gear or something.

[Neisan_Quetz]

ODD procs obviously.

(yea I know but that's really it, Hvelg is technically the only weapon that has no reason to not have 300% aftermath up)

[Meyi]

I want the Hvergelmir to melee. It'll be fun to destroy some monsters in Campaign with a staff inbetween nukes. And I like to solo a lot on Summoner alongside my avatar, another great use.

I'd honestly like to see more melee friendly mage gear, but I'd be afraid of melee thinking we're stepping on their toes. :<

[SpankWustler]

Your toilet isn't going to magically transform into a fridge because a place to store your perishable food is typically more useful than a place to store your waste until it decomposes. Toilets are toilets and fridges are fridges.

You should have known full-well you were making a toilet when you started the process.

[Genoxd]

I have Hvergelmir and I'd like to say I am very happy with it. Not even counting the damage you can do having fun meleeing, the MP gain is amazing. I can pop on Atma of the Sea Daughter and get about 20MP/tick. That means while soloing I can spam BP Rage and Ward and never run out of MP. You can't do that with just MM. Even outside of abyssea, my BLM and SMN have no problem with MP in new content like Voidwatch. This staff gives you a limitless supply of MP, it is worth it for the weaponskill. I'll also that it is quite fun to play melee SMN with this thing. 600-700 dmg crits are awesome.

My only complaint: Aftermath doesn't extend to spells/avatars

[Alhanelem]

I feel bad because next month I will be wasting my ls's time as they farm 50 Kuk fangs for me to upgrade to sedna tusk stageYou shouldn't even need to waste your LS's time with this. Sedna tusks are used for nothing but the staff. Kukulkan fangs are used for nothing but the staff. Lots of people kill these and the items often fall to the ground. Just find someone doing it and ask if you can have them. They're so plentiful you can easily get them for free or really cheap.


Not sure why anyone would do Empyrean Staff. If you want the WS do the WoE one, the max MP thing won't make MUCH of a diff to a SMN that has tons of MP, just macro in MP gear or something. The MP max makes a significant difference; The empyrean staff is significantly easier up til the level 85 version with the incoming WoE changes.

[Leonlionheart]

No no no no no... Don't mention this weapon here, quick hide this thread.

Dallas will show up and we'll get 1,000pg+ of why SMN should all melee or go burn in the deepest fires of hell

[Alhanelem]

He's already being ignored by anyone who cares about this subject, so it doesn't matter.

[Darkwizardzin]

Sounds more or less what I've said before... it seems like SE has no intention of ever giving black mages a more useful relic/mythic/empyrean. At this point i've given up asking.. and have just accepted that we won't get a godly useful weapon like most other classes.

The best thing to do at this point is make the best use of these weapons as you can (as some people have said the Hvergelmir does have a few applications)... and tbh SE does have bigger gameplay balance issues to deal with like thf and drk (....but tbh I don't think they will ever make the people who play those jobs happy... every time SE does somthing they only get more OP'ed at them... not to say most of there points aren't valid).

[Dallas]

I want the Hvergelmir to melee. It'll be fun to destroy some monsters in Campaign with a staff inbetween nukes. And I like to solo a lot on Summoner alongside my avatar, another great use.

I'd honestly like to see more melee friendly mage gear, but I'd be afraid of melee thinking we're stepping on their toes. :<

As someone with Hvergelmir, I can tell you certain melee are already butthurt about the staff. WAR play SMN when their WAR is useless. SMN is almost never useless (I can only name the 2 Diabolos fights offhand). EDIT: oh look! It's a WAR!

Hvergelmir as a melee staff (used of course to melee) is perfect. MP = damage. I will say that +20 MP is lackluster for L95, especially since you can't improve our WS any further. A good Myrkr build is already close to 100% MP recovery at 300% TP.

If they are going to give the staff boosts similar to other weapons, they need to give the staff Regain. Let all mages have a reason to equip the staff whether they melee or not.

[Leonlionheart]

Yeah, Hvergelmir needs something to make it worthwhile in a way that mages can actually use it for something other than just looks, or a toy on trash mobs.

As it is now, it's completely useless to it's jobs on high end content such as Voidwatch, WoE, and even most of Abyssea. It adds a different play-style, yes, but such a play-style is more detrimental to yourself and your group rather than helpful, as the point of such jobs is powerful ranged damage with perks like debuffs/crowd control/curing(BLM, SCH)/ ranged hateless damage with tank/kite capabilities(SMN).

The work =/= reward in this case, unlike the other Empyrean weapons. Sure, no one really wants the upgrade items so it wouldn't be hard to leech them, but I think I can speak for a ton of WoE/Emp/DA/OaT/Oa2-4 owners when I say that CAMPING LOTTERY SPAWN NMS THREE TO FOUR TIMES IN A ROW IS THE WORST EXPERIENCE I'VE EVER HAD ON THIS GAME.

... and yet I've done it five times ... q.q

[Dallas]

See all the butthurt? LLH never disappoints. His deepest regret is that he has yet to find a SMN that cares about his Ukon.

[Leonlionheart]

See all the butthurt? LLH never disappoints. His deepest regret is that he has yet to find a SMN that cares about his Ukon.

Parses Dallas, parses. Actually every good SMN I know also has an Ukon.

[Dallas]

Based on your forum troll standards, the only good SMN is one that brings WAR to everything but 3 fights, and any moron can BP/release like a champ. Of course they are the only SMN you know. That's why you can't actually talk about SMN in a SMN related thread.

Love my ukon! I'm special!

[Leonlionheart]

Hvergelmir is pretty useless.

[Dallas]

Only if you don't play SMN. People who want an autoattack job for a sig clearly don't play SMN a whole lot. Let's just chalk it up to "bored WAR getting no attention from SE" so that you don't *have* to sound competent talking about SMN.

[SpankWustler]

People who want an autoattack job clearly don't play SMN a whole lot.

I can think of one guy who fits this criteria.

[Reiterpallasch]

In all the years i've played this game SE has never gotten a single mage weapon right.
Especially all those ele staves. Wtf was SE thinking!?

[Sargent]

As said before, if you want a weapon to deal damage, do the elemental staff trials. If you want a melee toy, do Hvergelmir. Why do Hver over the WoE version? Coz Kukulkan and Sedna are both complete jokes when done right. And the best thing about it? You put shame on Atmaless DDs when your ODD procs on SMN deal more damage then their ws (provided you use Crit atmas)

[Korpg]

/sigh, I kindof knew that Dallas would come here to chime in his supposed "godliness" on this thread, but I figured that if I didn't chime in my opinion on the matter of this staff, then he wouldn't show up (he has some deep love for me I'm guessing). But here he is....


As someone with Hvergelmir, I can tell you certain melee are already butthurt about the staff. WAR play SMN when their WAR is useless. SMN is almost never useless (I can only name the 2 Diabolos fights offhand). EDIT: oh look! It's a WAR!

WARs play SMN when it is better to have a SMN with a disposable pet on the mob instead of running in there and dying from AoE death moves every 10 seconds. WAR plays WARs for the other 99.999999999999999999999% of the content out there because it is a stronger damage dealer, can tank better, can weaponskill faster, can produce more damage without WSing than a SMN with avatar can produce. The list goes on. SMN is only useful for a very limited amount of mobs, and half of those mobs can be done with a sacrifice puller instead of a SMN.


Hvergelmir as a melee staff (used of course to melee) is perfect. MP = damage. I will say that +20 MP is lackluster for L95, especially since you can't improve our WS any further. A good Myrkr build is already close to 100% MP recovery at 300% TP.

If they are going to give the staff boosts similar to other weapons, they need to give the staff Regain. Let all mages have a reason to equip the staff whether they melee or not.

Give them an excuse to melee and maybe having the staff might have meaning.

If your only jobs are SMN, BLM, and SCH, then having a Hvergelmir is not a wasted emp. Having any of the other 17 jobs leveled and geared, that staff is a waste. Even Redemption is better than a Hvergelmir.

[Korpg]

His deepest regret is that he has yet to find a SMN that cares about his Ukon.

Actually, he knows me. He has seen the damage output my WAR can produce, and he knows that I'm one of the better SMNs in this game (or at least, on Asura) by his multiple complaining about my killing T2 mobs in Heroes solo. I would LOVE to see you attempt that as a melee mage Dallas.

[Korpg]

Based on your forum troll standards, the only good SMN is one that brings WAR to everything but 3 fights, and any moron can BP/release like a champ. Of course they are the only SMN you know. That's why you can't actually talk about SMN in a SMN related thread.

Love my ukon! I'm special!

How many times have you died to AoE spam? How many times could you have not died from AoE spam if you were not out there whacking on the mob?

Love my Hver! I'm special!

[Sparthos]

SE has Trial of the Magians before them and they could easily start Hvergelmir as the current weapon we have at 90 and branch it to suit the melee mage crowd AND the traditional backliner.

Since this hasn't happened, I have no choice but to believe that SE doesn't understand mages mostly don't care to melee or because Empyreans were created solely to enhance melee statistics and not the classes that wield them.

Gambateinn also falls into the same category as Hvergelmir in my opinion.

Inb4 Mythics.

[SpankWustler]

Since this hasn't happened, I have no choice but to believe that SE doesn't understand mages mostly don't care to melee or because Empyreans were created solely to enhance melee statistics and not the classes that wield them.

Gambateinn also falls into the same category as Hvergelmir in my opinion.

Inb4 Mythics.

The really awesome thing is that the Black Mage and Scholar mythic weapons were worse than elemental staffs at 75, and remain worse than the current top-of-the-line-magic-damage-sticks at present. Even when somebody gets the right general idea, somebody else drops the ball when it comes time to implement that idea.

[Alhanelem]

Please stop putting the mythic staves in the same breath as relic and empyrean. They are completely different in purpose.


Since this hasn't happened, I have no choice but to believe that SE doesn't understand mages They do understand mages. These are niche weapons not meant for everyone. That being said, especiially with hvergelmir you can take advantage of its benefits without ever meleeing by using TP wings- its like having another extra big ether + remedy in your pocket.

If SCH/BLM had a trait to keep TP when switching weapons, then it would actually be really awesome for them because they can generate TP with nukes. That's a pipe dream of course.


How many times have you died to AoE spam? How many times could you have not died from AoE spam if you were not out there whacking on the mob?For me personally, and for any other non-dallas on the planet, very rarely. Most people are smart enough to know when being within X range of an enemy is too dangerous to risk. However, there are also ways to reduce that risk, such as earthen armor.


If your only jobs are SMN, BLM, and SCH, then having a Hvergelmir is not a wasted empPlease don't unilaterally declare someone's efforts to be "wasted." If they wanted it and worked for it, then it was not a waste. Besides, 2 of the 3 emp trials don't even compete with another emp weapon at all.

[Sparthos]

Please stop putting the mythic staves in the same breath as relic and empyrean. They are completely different in purpose.

Why wouldn't anyone compare them? All of these weapons are considered so powerful that they have time consuming and patience-testing requirements to obtain.

So I go through the motions and obtain a Hvergelmir for my BLM and what do I get?

-120 MP (that i'll lose the second I swap to a real nuking weapon)
-a WS that requires me to get TP (something BLM is terrible at)
-ODD tied not to magic, long range play or anything BLM excels in but to the WS that again requires me to melee on the class has intentionally been designed to suck at melee.

Seems like a great deal. You get nothing and sacrifice man hours for a weapon that does nothing for your class. Man, why isn't every weapon so amazing?

Laevateinn is supposed to be the "casting" weapon yet it too falls before the various elemental magians, has a weaponskill attached (because BLMs melee) to trip the aftermaths instead of MAGIC because you know, BLMs dont use MAGIC.

The whole thing is a wash. When the strongest arguments for these weapons is solo, you've already defeated yourself.

Let's compare these rubbish weapons to Death Penalty for COR - a class often cited as having the lowest playing population.

You get access to "Leaden Salute" which solved a problem Corsair had regarding hitting targets consistently with a weaponskill, you get access to Quick Draw boosts (a key component of Corsair) and the aftermaths increase the ranged presence of the class through boosts to accuracy, attack and finally double/triple damage.

By no means is Death Penalty the best designed weapon for Corsair as Wildfire has stolen much of Leadens thunder and the aftermaths are moot now COR is encouraged to spend more time rolling with QDs in between but at least the weapon enhances the strengths of the class which is what you'd expect of such a weapon.

Hvergelmir does nothing for the classes attached short of increase MP restoral ability which was moot in Abyssea and will also be moot in at Voidwatch if you build parties properly. While I will admit that Nirvana has boosts relevant to SMNs interests, that is merely 1/3 on viable stave mythics.

[Winrie]

And in one bloody brilliant example sparthos sums it up. Now that the truth has been said can we quit blethering about things that are painfully obvious? Like magian staffs ect being worthless and useless

[Neisan_Quetz]

And in one bloody brilliant example sparthos sums it up. Now that the truth has been said can we quit blethering about things that are painfully obvious? Like magian staffs ect being worthless and useless

Uhhh, what?

[Alhanelem]

-a WS that requires me to get TP (something BLM is terrible at) It's called a TP wing. Use it.

We've already established that summoner can more easily make use of it than the other two jobs, but just because it doesn't serve the purpose you want doesn't mean it has no use to anybody. If you want a staff that gives magic attack bonus or perp cost, there's a super staff that does that- the mythic. The point with the statement you quoted is unlike the other weapons the mythic is greatly different from the relic and empyrean. Regardless, these weapons are not obtainable by everyone and thus do not need to suit everyone's purposes.


enhances the strengths of the clasThese weapons (mythics aside) Are NOT designed to "enhance the strengths of the class." Once you get over that fact, these weapons should be more acceptable to you. Empyreans were built to be among the strongest weapon weapons in their weapon class (which the staff achieves- it is the strongest staff weapon in the game- not the strongest stat booster staff, the strongest weapon staff). Nothing more. If they were designed to enhance the strengths of the jobs, there would be 20 of them, one for each job, with job specific effects on them. Oh wait, those already exist, those are the mythics.

(One thing I would have done differently in designing the weapon system itself is have the DMG: rating on mage weapons affect their magic. I honestly have no idea why they didn't do something like that. It would have solved this sort of problem by making a high DMG: weapon for a mage really more betterer)

[Sparthos]

It's called a TP wing. Use it.

We've already established that summoner can more easily make use of it than the other two jobs, but just because it doesn't serve the purpose you want doesn't mean it has no use to anybody. If you want a staff that gives magic attack bonus or perp cost, there's a super staff that does that- the mythic. The point with the statement you quoted is unlike the other weapons the mythic is greatly different from the relic and empyrean. Regardless, these weapons are not obtainable by everyone and thus do not need to suit everyone's purposes.

You're really grasping at straws on this one.

Why do you use a TP wing? Because you can't get TP on anything that matters to trip the aftermaths good sir. Thanks for proving that the weapons don't even function properly without outside items.

Why is this though? Because neither SMN BLM or SCH are good melee and rightfully so as they excel in other fields of play. Mage weapons should always focus on improving the mages strengths and not lazily copy/pasting the format of melee weapons which what painfully happened with Relics and Empyreans.

I congratulate you on making the best of a hopeless situation however.

Empyreans are attainable by most people who attempt them and unlike melee weapons the mage weapons are completely impractical outside solo or beating up on Easy Preys.

While the melee (or BRD) gets something that takes them from good to great, mages are stuck with weapons that do nothing for them in a party setting.

Why do you keep bringing up mythics? Did I not just explain that the mythics for BLM and SCH which are supposed to be magic oriented also fail compared to easily acquired magian staves?

[Sparthos]

These weapons (mythics aside) Are NOT designed to "enhance the strengths of the class."

I guess Daurdabla just happens to make BRD a more versatile buffer, Ochain happens to make PLD more resistant to physical attacks, Armageddon just happens to to improve Corsairs magical presence, Gandiva just happens to solve an issue Ranger had with a one hit wonder WS and Almace just happens to solve an issue with PLD needing a solid WS to hold hate with.

Like it or not, Empyreans have done more for enhancing the strengths of certain classes than the so-called Mythics have.

It's pretty obvious. SE wanted to create weapons that were comparable to relics in power but could be made in a fraction of the time. In a lazy display of disregard for how mages operate, the empyreans were just copied and pasted to be just like the previous relics with weaponskills that trip aftermaths.

A true Hvergelmir would be something like this:

Hvergelmir
DMG: 98 Delay: 390 INT+15
"Ultima"
Aftermath: Occasionally deals double damage (inc. avatars)
Lv. 90 BLM SMN SCH

You'd now have a magic oriented weapon tied to a spell that then trips an aftermath that allows mages to deal double damage with spells or avatars for a limited time. Said staff is still the second strongest melee weapon.

Further, lets modify the WHM club shall we?

Gambanteinn
(Club) All Races
DMG: 78 Delay: 300 HP +70 MP +70
"Curaja"
Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage (inc. cures)
Lv. 90 WHM

Tada. You still have the second strongest club now tied to a cure spell that triggers the ability to deal double damage while also occasionally doubling cure results like any self-respecting WHM would be interested in.

I'll take my check from Square-Enix Ltd please. It can be written out to:

Sparthosx
9828 West Bastok Lane, Mog House C7
South Quon, Vana'diel 00932

[Rezeak]

First SE was pretty clear what this staff did there are no hidden effect or anything so honestly i don't think these staffs need a boost.

As for is it useful for the jobs that can use it .... yes

Outside of abyssea

SCH With this staff and use of stragems 1/2mp with af3+2 and sublimation you pretty much will never run out of mp and for Voidwatch atm this is awsome for going through ya spells for Staggers.

BLM... I dunno

SMN
People that acully play SMN do play it solo and by meleeing this staff basically makes that impossible to guage

Inside Abyssea

Sea Daughter + this staff = 20mp+ a tick (better than 3 atmas) for SMN thats amazing for SCH and BLM not so much

Either way the fact it has some unique uses and SE were really clear with what it did means you shouldn't be complaing.

As for ya Mythic stuff.

BLM
Magian gives +25% DMG
BLM Staff gives +50 Mab

Outside abyssea BLM has around 90 MAB in best case

190 MAB + 50 MAB = about a 26% increase in DMG so even if it's 1% the BLM staff is better than all the Trail staffs ooooooooooooooo and u don't need to change staff between nukes so eventully u'll get enough TP to use the Magic attack aftermath o and u get a mdef down effect on the mob which will boost your DMG by another 10% so now your looking at 40% vs 26% outside of abyssea when BLM gets enough tp ofc.

Mythic BLM Staff is the best BLM staff outside of abyssea.

As for the SCH one it's so sititational it sucks but in any case enmity is an issue this staff allows SCH to be the best nuker.

[Tannlore]

These weapons (mythics aside) Are NOT designed to "enhance the strengths of the class." Once you get over that fact, these weapons should be more acceptable to you. Empyreans were built to be among the strongest weapon weapons in their weapon class (which the staff achieves- it is the strongest staff weapon in the game- not the strongest stat booster staff, the strongest weapon staff). Nothing more. If they were designed to enhance the strengths of the jobs, there would be 20 of them, one for each job, with job specific effects on them. Oh wait, those already exist, those are the mythics.

Exactly, this.

This staff doesn't need much else. In fact, I'm glad it's getting more mp on it so I can get more mp returned when I use Myrky (1800 just isn't enough!). Speaking from a summoner standpoint this staff is just fine the way it is. It beats out any perpetuation stave I can hope to get and then some. Outside and in of abyssea I can get back my /entire/ bar of normal mp (That is outside my WS set) in one weaponskill. No perpetuation stave is going to touch this, not Nirvana.. not ever. As it stands I already have free avatars+ mp with bahamut's. Emp Staff covers not only perp costs, but the cost of spamming blood pacts + any spells I so choose with impunity (and with regain atams I never even have to really get close to combat either). Outside of aby, I use wings, Meditate, I get TP on nearby mobs and store it, or use other methods regular melee use to get tp. But then again, it's not like tp is hard to get: even at 100 tp I get almost 600 mp back.

People need to accept this staff for what it is and stop making it what it will never be. It is a melee weapon and a source of limitless MP. Oh and speaking from the scholar standpoint, because I use it on my scholar too: Perpetuance: Adloquium = 120tp. This works fine and dandy for me outside of aby. And as for blm, I've toyed around with it against my fellow blm in shell. My damage levels out with theirs since I'm still casting long after they are out of mp and when I do finally pull hate, I'm able to stay alive pretty much forever because I'm constantly using myrky to keep mana wall alive. Really, with atams on I don't nuke much less harder than they do with the staff equipped, nor do I get resisted much at all... Outside of aby, still don't get resisted much at all, damage, they are a bit higher but I still beat them because: I'm the energizer bunny of mages.

Stop complaining about trying to change the staff to suit YOUR play style. Learn to adapt YOUR play style to the weapon instead.

[Malamasala]

I don't think SE are wrong with the concept that mages melee. Some of them do. What I wonder is why they never add armors to help melee, but they keep adding rare weapons.

[Darkwizardzin]

As for ya Mythic stuff.

BLM
Magian gives +25% DMG
BLM Staff gives +50 Mab

Outside abyssea BLM has around 90 MAB in best case

190 MAB + 50 MAB = about a 26% increase in DMG so even if it's 1% the BLM staff is better than all the Trail staffs ooooooooooooooo and u don't need to change staff between nukes so eventully u'll get enough TP to use the Magic attack aftermath o and u get a mdef down effect on the mob which will boost your DMG by another 10% so now your looking at 40% vs 26% outside of abyssea when BLM gets enough tp ofc.

Mythic BLM Staff is the best BLM staff outside of abyssea.

As for the SCH one it's so sititational it sucks but in any case enmity is an issue this staff allows SCH to be the best nuker.

...What i have in bold is the problem with your statement. magian increase damage by 30% when fully upgraded not 25% (and soon this will be 35% when +3 comes out)

This means magian still beat the mythic weapon.... thus mythic still sucks when you conpare the work it takes to get a magian with the work it takes to get a mythic.

......mythic still needs work. :p

edit: also while im at it... im pretty sure because of the diminishing returns of the stat "Magic attack bouns" that the increase your talking about is less then 26%... which hurts your case even more.

[Ank]

Hvergelmir
DMG: 98 Delay: 390 INT+15
"Ultima"
Aftermath: Occasionally deals double damage (inc. avatars)
Lv. 90 BLM SMN SCH

Oooh me likey likey this idea.

[Economizer]

Stop complaining about trying to change the staff to suit YOUR play style. Learn to adapt YOUR play style to the weapon instead.

I'm working on getting a Empyrean Club, any suggestions on how to make the WS useful? I always assumed the WS was a bonus joke to further anger Paladins, since WHM doesn't have problems doing massive damage with a weapon skill, empyrean or not.

Also, this guy is right - the staff isn't going to and should not change. If you want a staff for nuking, get SE to fix a staff that was designed for that - whether it is the mythic BLM staff, or the Dorje.

[Darkwizardzin]

lol Dorje sucks... and as i've stated above blm mythic has unadressed problems.

[Sparthos]

Getting 30,000 Alexandrite only to lose to a Magian.

Only in my FFXI.

[Tannlore]

I'm working on getting a Empyrean Club, any suggestions on how to make the WS useful? I always assumed the WS was a bonus joke to further anger Paladins, since WHM doesn't have problems doing massive damage with a weapon skill, empyrean or not.

I have someone in my LS with this club actually (soon to be 2 people) he pairs it with an augmented Genbu shield for the buffs off that. When he WS he stacks on all the HP/MP gear he can (extra emphasis on the mp gear). The WS behaves exactly like Myrky in that you can engage at max range, use the WS, get no agrro (I use my Myrky on what ever mob happens to be walking by for instance) get your mp/hp back and keep going.

He has few MP issues on whm with this club and enjoys using it especially as a meleeWHM (^_^) It's a beast for soloing. He uses atma of perfect attendance and always has enough tp to take his club out and give himself mp back between cures when he looks like he's getting low... Again he doesn't have to get close to use this WS (this is something people continuously forget time and time again with staff and club I might add. You do NOT have to get close to use WS).

[Raksha]

SCH With this staff and use of stragems 1/2mp with af3+2 and sublimation you pretty much will never run out of mp






As for the SCH one it's so sititational it sucks but in any case enmity is an issue this staff allows SCH to be the best nuker.

In any case where enmity is an issue, SCH mythic holds no comparison whatsoever to enmity douse.

Even if it did, I have a -50% enmity set which accomplishes the same thing and doesnt require the correct weather or 30,000 alexandrite.

[Economizer]

Unlike a Summoner though, I can't afford to use Sea Daughter because the slow would kill my ability to cure.


The WS behaves exactly like Myrky in that you can engage at max range, use the WS, get no agrro (I use my Myrky on what ever mob happens to be walking by for instance) get your mp/hp back and keep going.

I just think it is kinda strange that it restores HP at all, since as a White Mage you can just cure yourself with more MP. Perhaps I'm missing something... still, I suppose it would be an upgrade to Mystic Boon in some situations.

The Club WS just feels like something you'd give a Paladin or something.

[Neisan_Quetz]

EDIT: page late

[Jamesy]

this staff honestly could be easily fixed with the next trial and have it be called "Wielder's Affinity 1" and have that translate to all elements affinity +1 for macc and mab then have the lvl 99 staff be affinity +3 or 4

[Vicious]

I don't see them adding Affinity to it.

What they should do is add a very high tier of Occult Acumen to it.

[Alhanelem]

Why do you use a TP wing? Because you can't get TP on anything that matters to trip the aftermaths good sir. Thanks for proving that the weapons don't even function properly without outside items.Uh, no. The TP wing idea is for people who don't want to melee. I absolutely can hit whatever I want with it. The weapon absolutely does "funciton properly." It's not malfuncitoning just because you don't use a TP wing, it's just a SUGGESTION for people who would like to use the weapon skill as an extra source of MP as if it were, say, an MP potion, but without ever attacking, since that's so taboo for some of you. Personally, while I don't make a regular habit of it, I have been able to hit with high accuracy against anything anyone else can hit accurately. Stop acting like these jobs are D rank in their weapon. Their skill is high enough (well maybe not SCH...) to hit anything they might want to hit with it.

What do you really want, anyway? Every relic/mythic/empyrean has a special WS associated with it. The only way to use that weapon skill is to either attack or use a TP wing, whether it's a staff or a scythe, and whther it has stats on it you care about or not. You're most likely using this solo, so we, the people who own this weapon, are not suggesting you go try to melee Rani or something. We're suggesting you use it where you can for the function it serves: One of the best MP restoral effects in the game. If you stack max MP when you use it, you can easily get up to 1000 MP or more out of it. Other than the most die hard fans, who cares what else the darn thing does? The weapon skill is the whole purpose of the weapon. If you don't like that, well, too bad.

I'm not "grasping at straws." but arguing against people such as yourself is a pointless effort because you've made up your mind and are not willing to entertain views that oppose your own.

(For the record, I didn't really want to have this conversation again. In the context of the original post, my response was basically meant to say "Wait, you were expecting the next magian trial to totally transform the staff into something completely different? That's expecting too much, especially from SE.")

[Economizer]

(For the record, I didn't really want to have this conversation again. In the context of the original post, my response was basically meant to say "Wait, you were expecting the next magian trial to totally transform the staff into something completely different? That's expecting too much, especially from SE.")

It really bugs me that people made these expecting them to be for anything but melee. The only way I can expect this thing to ever affect spells/avatars directly is by extending the aftermath to those, but this item is a melee staff. It never had casting stats on it in the first place.

The staff is fine, the expectations are wrong. Seriously, ask SE to fix the Dorje.

[Leonlionheart]

The staff for it's purpose is good.

Of course any BLM, SCH, or SMN meleeing simply isn't good.

[Dallas]

It beats out any perpetuation stave I can hope to get and then some.

You know, there are at least a dozen posters who will read this from a dozen smn and still give all credit to me. I will recognize you. (^^)d



The staff for it's purpose is good.

MP = damage. Sure, it's not as easy to do for the WAR who occasionally just wastes a party slot. For the really bad SMN, we have NQ ele staves. If you spend the time getting all the other gear, those staves are just as worthless as the +3 magian staves.

[Leonlionheart]

Hvergelmir is the worst Empyrean weapon.

[Dallas]

Hvergelmir is the worst Empyrean weapon.

SMN is not a pure DD job. Hvergelmir is the best SMN weapon.

Quit stinkin up the place, WAR.

[Tannlore]

Hvergelmir is the worst Empyrean weapon.

*cough* Camlann's Torment *cough*


The staff for it's purpose is good.

Of course any BLM, SCH, or SMN meleeing simply isn't good.

haven't been reading all the way through have you. It isn't necessary for them TO melee to use the WS. Especially in abyssea, you.. do know this right? I know you do, stop being coy. :)

[Dallas]

Tann, I just realized your sig is standing in a "T" shape. Inspired by the "YMCA" song? ;)

[Kimara]

Hvergelmir is the worst Empyrean weapon.

You're the worst Empyrean weapon! :P <3

[Sparthos]

Uh, no. The TP wing idea is for people who don't want to melee. I absolutely can hit whatever I want with it. The weapon absolutely does "funciton properly." It's not malfuncitoning just because you don't use a TP wing, it's just a SUGGESTION for people who would like to use the weapon skill as an extra source of MP as if it were, say, an MP potion, but without ever attacking, since that's so taboo for some of you.

The problem with a TP wing is that it isn't always available and is merely a workaround on the issue mages have with meleeing... namely that they suck at it. Dont get me wrong, I know you can use the Hvergelmir as a battery but the primary way to get that battery working is to get up front and melee.

(Or have a COR like me that often Tactician Roll's the party at stuff like Voidwatch)

You're missing my point and that is that mages do not make good melee. SE knows this yet they continue to churn out these "ultimate" weapons that revolve around the worst part of the class. What if the ultimate melee weapons required casting spells? Would you then tell me it'd work so long as a I pack some ethers beforehand?

It doesn't make sense.



Personally, while I don't make a regular habit of it, I have been able to hit with high accuracy against anything anyone else can hit accurately. Stop acting like these jobs are D rank in their weapon. Their skill is high enough (well maybe not SCH...) to hit anything they might want to hit with it.

Im going to call bollocks on this.

Against difficult targets, even DD have trouble hitting monsters meaning the ill-equipped mage is going to be in the toilet accuracy-wise. On easy targets you'll be able to get away with being near the front lines but at even the lowest tier of endgame your accuracy is going to suffer, you'll be in range of AoEs and the MP gained through being a frontliner becomes less and less effective.

Did I also mention that time meleeing is time you're not doing something else? Like support, crowd control, healing etc. I'll reiterate that I can see situations where the staff could be useful like popping a wing after an item dump !! then getting your MP back through the staff WS but that still puts the staff way below every other Empyrean by a good distance.

(It's not like the ODD works on nukes or avatars... nope, more melee-oriented garbage for a mage)


What do you really want, anyway? Every relic/mythic/empyrean has a special WS associated with it. The only way to use that weapon skill is to either attack or use a TP wing, whether it's a staff or a scythe, and whther it has stats on it you care about or not. You're most likely using this solo, so we, the people who own this weapon, are not suggesting you go try to melee Rani or something. We're suggesting you use it where you can for the function it serves: One of the best MP restoral effects in the game. If you stack max MP when you use it, you can easily get up to 1000 MP or more out of it. Other than the most die hard fans, who cares what else the darn thing does? The weapon skill is the whole purpose of the weapon. If you don't like that, well, too bad.

Too bad indeed that SE can't realize that mage weapons should serve mage purposes and you shouldn't have to be shoehorned into meleeing when the classes offer little in the way of gear to serve that purpose.

Melee aren't suddenly asked to cast spells to access their tools, PLD shields don't require support spells to activate and the BRD harp/horn doesn't suddenly require you to tank in order to activate the unique effects but it's perfectly fine for mages to be tied down to melee in order for their weapons to work.

Right.

[Tannlore]

Tann, I just realized your sig is standing in a "T" shape. Inspired by the "YMCA" song? ;)

It's always fun at the...




Horutoto Ruins!!!!

[Leonlionheart]

*cough* Camlann's Torment *cough*
Can still use Drakesbane with it, and can keep aftermath up too. Just gotta play with it correctly.


haven't been reading all the way through have you. It isn't necessary for them TO melee to use the WS. Especially in abyssea, you.. do know this right? I know you do, stop being coy. :)

You're asking for a lot. Usually SMN is in it's own party, and not usually inside Abyssea in the first place.
1) Sacrificing ally resorces to give you TP is bad, mmmmmkay
2) Sacrificing atma slots to give you TP is bad, also
3) Sacrificing atmacite slots is actually ok. So this is something that makes the staff usable for TP regeneration.

[Alhanelem]

You're missing my point and that is that mages do not make good melee.You're missing the point that it isn't about being good melee. The staff has utility, regardless of your melee capability. It's also really easy to get among empyrean weapons.


Melee aren't suddenly asked to cast spells to access their tools, PLD shields don't require support spells to activateerr what? ninjas cast spells, DRKs might cast certain spells, PLDs definitely cast spells. And actually PLD shields do require spells to activate *more*.

It's fine that you don't like the staff, but it is there for the people who do like it and have a use for it. If you're able to leverage it, Myrkr is a great tool to have, not just for the MP restore but for the status cure too.

[Dallas]

2) Sacrificing atma slots to give you TP is bad
LOL, Physical pacts > magic pacts and Myrkr > Minikin. It all comes down to a Ukon WAR having to eventually admit he is a subpar SMN.

[Leonlionheart]

Sacrificing atma slots to give you TP is bad

l2read

[Neisan_Quetz]

You're missing the point that it isn't about being good melee. The staff has utility, regardless of your melee capability. It's also really easy to get among empyrean weapons.

err what? ninjas cast spells, DRKs might cast certain spells, PLDs definitely cast spells. And actually PLD shields do require spells to activate *more*.

What? Aegis doesn't require any "spell" to activate more, it is always active. I shouldn't have to explain Ochain.

Having utility doesn't stop the staff from having poor utility by being tied to the worst aspect of the jobs that can equip it, especially since all 3 typically have better things to do than waste time poking the mob with a weapon that does nothing to enhance each job's strengths. No one cares about how useful it is in giving unlimited mp versus trash mobs.

[Venat]

Best weapons for Mages are Mythics...period... BLM mythic at lv99 has something like... MAB+50. How I know this is it goes +5-10 MAB every 5 levels.

That do crazy... amount damage. Could do something like 15k-40k dmg a tier5 with brew on. It pretty muh gives you extra 5-10k DMG to your high lvl spells.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Best weapons for Mages are Mythics...period... BLM mythic at lv99 has something like... MAB+50. How I know this is it goes +5-10 MAB every 5 levels.

That do crazy... amount damage. Could do something like 15k-40k dmg a tier5 with brew on. It pretty muh gives you extra 5-10k DMG to your high lvl spells.

That's, what, I just, no, I'm just going to go with you're retarded and call it a night.

[Alhanelem]

What? Aegis doesn't require any "spell" to activate more, it is always active.I was referring to the use of Reprisal. I'm no PLD expert, but the spell description does say "increases chance of blocking with shield."

Thereby using a "tool" to get a better block rate.

[Darkwizardzin]

Best weapons for Mages are Mythics...period... BLM mythic at lv99 has something like... MAB+50. How I know this is it goes +5-10 MAB every 5 levels.

That do crazy... amount damage. Could do something like 15k-40k dmg a tier5 with brew on. It pretty muh gives you extra 5-10k DMG to your high lvl spells.

....No matter how many times I scream about how uneffective the black mage mythic is... all people seems to do (like this guy) is look at the final product and say: OMG 50 mab... this is the best weapon ever!!!!!

........well I'm going to repost the post I made earlier in this thread that you clearly didn't bother to read then call it a night.


As for ya Mythic stuff.

BLM
Magian gives +25% DMG
BLM Staff gives +50 Mab

Outside abyssea BLM has around 90 MAB in best case

190 MAB + 50 MAB = about a 26% increase in DMG so even if it's 1% the BLM staff is better than all the Trail staffs ooooooooooooooo and u don't need to change staff between nukes so eventully u'll get enough TP to use the Magic attack aftermath o and u get a mdef down effect on the mob which will boost your DMG by another 10% so now your looking at 40% vs 26% outside of abyssea when BLM gets enough tp ofc.

Mythic BLM Staff is the best BLM staff outside of abyssea.

As for the SCH one it's so sititational it sucks but in any case enmity is an issue this staff allows SCH to be the best nuker.

...What i have in bold is the problem with your statement. magian increase damage by 30% when fully upgraded not 25% (and soon this will be 35% when +3 comes out)

This means magian still beat the mythic weapon.... thus mythic still sucks when you conpare the work it takes to get a magian with the work it takes to get a mythic.

......mythic still needs work. :p

edit: also while im at it... im pretty sure because of the diminishing returns of the stat "Magic attack bouns" that the increase your talking about is less then 26%... which hurts your case even more.

....Im sorry if I seem rude but this needs to be said... Please do not post your opinions about topics you know little about as if they are facts... that's how bad information/opinions spread and that only hurts our chances our hopfuly one day of getting a mythic weapon that is worthwhile.

[Sira]

best signature ever

[Darkwizardzin]

best signature ever

>.>

------

[Tannlore]

Can still use Drakesbane with it, and can keep aftermath up too. Just gotta play with it correctly.

I wasn't aware aftermath effects would proc on non-associated weapon skills on these weapons. (i.e. Drakesbane getting the occ. double damage boost from camm. torment). To my knowlege, it only effects normal attacks. At least this is how the relic bravura in my LS and my own emp staff behaves. So no, you'd only get that nice extra umph on the normal attacks.. drakes would all be... le sigh... normal. This is why I didn't make that polearm: That is a sad Emp weapon.




You're asking for a lot. Usually SMN is in it's own party, and not usually inside Abyssea in the first place.
1) Sacrificing ally resorces to give you TP is bad, mmmmmkay
2) Sacrificing atma slots to give you TP is bad, also


1) I don't understand how ally resources are sacrificed to give me TP. elaborate here si vous plez. SMN is mostly a solo job, I don't need a baby sitter. If I'm in my own party then there's no resources to speak of by my own resources to begin with yes? I can keep myself alive, I can stay out of stupid, when the alliance is wiping, I'm usually one of the last people to die because I STAYED out of the AoE, while doing damage with my staff, while doing damage with my avatar while curing people. Yes it can be done, yes you have to watch what your doing, yes you have to have an IQ bigger than your left shoe.

And no, I'm not a AMG staff must be out all the time!!!1! smn either. There's a time an place to swing the thing too. TP spam from mobs: No thanks. But not every mob in the game is a tp spam or AoE event either. So stop using this as an excuse against this staff people. Seriously.. it gets old.

2) This is not true. You have smn 90, I know you do. You seriously know better than to say that TP is a "Sacrifice" for smn in any shape or form. Shame on you and hang your head for even suggesting it. Your merit blood pacts are boosted by this very thing. I should put you in smn kindergarten for even suggesting this as being "Bad". Arguably there are better setups for given situations, and I will sacrifice regain for a full proper MAB setup, but usually I don't have to because I have Pet: MAB coming out my arse in rainbows.

But to say that TP for your avatars is bad... really..

[Byrth]

It's pretty dumb to talk about how Atma make something like Hverg (or even Gamb) viable, considering that MP isn't the remotest issue for anyone inside Abyssea (Hi Minkin and gear). For instance, if your White Mage needs to use Gamb to keep MP up, they should have invested some of the time they wasted on it getting AF3+2 legs instead.

I still remember how disappointed the BLM community was when Laev was first tested at fanfest. It came down to people saying things like, "If they had just put 1MP/tick on it, I could have justified getting it."

[Leonlionheart]

I'm not saying pet TP is bad, I'm saying using an Atma slot on it is bad. (I'd assume using an Atmacite slot on it is bad too, now that I see there are MAB ones).

Considering 5/5 Heavenly Strike is +100 TP bonus, Legs +2 are +100 TP bonus (I think?), and you can Mana Cede for 300% effective TP on a BP/release type of deal using an atma slot for VV would be pointless in that respect.

I can understand VV if you're using Garuda, I guess, assuming STR is a Predator Claws mod or it helps fSTR in some way on your Avatar.

It depends on your target I guess though; some don't take much physical damage, some don't take much magical damage. I'd Beyond/MM/Ultimate for magical damage and use the INT+9, Pet: MAB+9 staff, RR/GH/VV for physical damage assuming you have a Hvergelmir85+, and previous criteria are met and that would be fantastic if the Regain on VV beats out the refresh on MM. Sea Daughter is just too much of a loss in actual DPS and utility though.

[Vicious]

RR/GH/VV for physical damage assuming you have a Hvergelmir85+, and previous criteria are met and that would be fantastic if the Regain on VV beats out the refresh on MM.

150 ticks to 300 TP, so if you can make it to 2500MP in your Myrkr set (and WS @300% every time), they break even. Beats Minikin by a mile when using physical pacts.

In the offchance you can melee while you're at it, it is pretty much impossible to run out of MP, short of Impacting things for the lulz.

I know it's the cool thing to do to talk shit on Hvergelmir, but from SMN's perspective at least, it's a really, really fun weapon that caters to a specific style of play (and is hands-down the best weapon for that style): meleeing. It ain't for everyone, and it ain't for everything, but it's hella fun when used properly in the proper situations.

For BLMs and SCHs though, yeah, WTF. Put some Occult Accumen on this thing so it has a purpose beyond TP wings and town gear... it would give the weapon so many opportunities for outside-the-box thinkers on both jobs.

[SpankWustler]

I can understand VV if you're using Garuda, I guess, assuming STR is a Predator Claws mod or it helps fSTR in some way on your Avatar.

Sorry if this post lacks my usual clarity (if such clarity even exists), since tonight's pain relievers of choice are not kind to me.

The more normal part is that pets don't benefit from cruor buffs and thus start with lower STR, and the much weirder part is that STR somehow affects avatar damage much more than it affects a player's damage. I can't explain it without digging out the testing because I never bothered to memorize it, but it's a huge effect compared to what you'd expect to see or what an avatar gets from most forms of attack.

[Leonlionheart]

If you can make it to 2500MP in your Myrkr set you're only gaining 100 MP over +2 perp cost staves + MM. Not including weather/day bonus on hands, you need body+2, feet+2, ring and ToM Perpetuation cost -6 staff to break even on perpetuation of Avatars (before Refresh). So we're looking at a difference of 16 MP/tick vs 16.6 MP/tick (if my math is right?). Also, over TP at all and you're losing a chunk of what Hvergelmir actually has. Add in regain earring though, and you're in the clear.

That being said, you should be justified to use the Regain +2 Atmacite in Voidwatch, which actually creates a big draw to the MP recover aspect of the weapon. (The Atmacite in question gets +2 at Lv.10, as seen on the test server).

Still, Hvergelmir is only a niche weapon. That's it. SCH and BLM will benefit more from MM in Abyssea, and MAB/Sphere: Refresh Atmacite in Voidwatch. Even still, it's a bad idea to melee on any of those jobs.

Unless you have said criteria met, you shouldn't use the weapon.

[Leonlionheart]

Sorry if this post lacks my usual clarity (if such clarity even exists), since tonight's pain relievers of choice are not kind to me.

The more normal part is that pets don't benefit from cruor buffs and thus start with lower STR, and the much weirder part is that STR somehow affects avatar damage much more than it affects a player's damage. I can't explain it without digging out the testing because I never bothered to memorize it, but it's a huge effect compared to what you'd expect to see or what an avatar gets from most forms of attack.

I'd be interested in said information.

[Vicious]

If you can make it to 2500MP in your Myrkr set you're only gaining 100 MP over +2 perp cost staves + MM. Not including weather/day bonus on hands, you need body+2, feet+2, ring and ToM Perpetuation cost -6 staff to break even on perpetuation of Avatars (before Refresh). So we're looking at a difference of 16 MP/tick vs 16.6 MP/tick (if my math is right?). Also, over TP at all and you're losing a chunk of what Hvergelmir actually has. Add in regain earring though, and you're in the clear.

That was precisely the point; they're comparable. The benefit is getting to dump Minikin for a 3rd Physical Atma... so if you're using Physical BPs, Hvergelmir is essentially Lunar+1. Nothing to sneeze at, if you ask me.

[Leonlionheart]

That was precisely the point; they're comparable. The benefit is getting to dump Minikin for a 3rd Physical Atma... so if you're using Physical BPs, Hvergelmir is essentially Lunar+1. Nothing to sneeze at, if you ask me.

I quite agree.

I'm not sure why anyone would be on SMN inside Abyssea though, but that's besides the point, and a topic for another day lol. I'm going to bed~

[Vicious]

I'm not sure why anyone would be on SMN inside Abyssea though, but that's besides the point, and a topic for another day lol.

Sad, but true; but you can be damn sure that post-update, I'll be spending a week straight with Cait Sith thwacking things with my staff in a state of perpetual /gleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

On a more serious note, I've had pretty good success in Voidwatch on SMN/WHM when paired with a COR and 4 DDs; Tactician's (DDs are getting it anyway, no need to waste a roll on Evoker's) + Hvergelmir for MP; Cures, Status removal, Defensive BPs to keep the DDs standing when they go in range to proc; Offensive BPs for procs and damage when it's time to go for the kill.

[Economizer]

I don't understand how ally resources are sacrificed to give me TP.

If you are in an alliance, and you are hitting the mob people are fighting, you are feeding it TP by hitting it. Thus, even if you are contributing significantly by hitting the mob, you are still costing allies resources, by causing more TP moves from the mob.

[Korpg]

LOL, Physical pacts > magic pacts and Myrkr > Minikin. It all comes down to a Ukon WAR having to eventually admit he is a subpar SMN.

Have you soloed Alfard yet? No?

Have you tanked Pantokrator yet? No?

Have you ever fought anything worthwhile yet? No?

Maybe it isn't the Ukon WAR that is the subpar SMN....

[Korpg]

Considering 5/5 Heavenly Strike is +100 TP bonus, Legs +2 are +100 TP bonus (I think?), and you can Mana Cede for 300% effective TP on a BP/release type of deal using an atma slot for VV would be pointless in that respect.

Got to correct you on this Leon, the first merit on BPs is using the move, every merit afterwards is 40%, so having 5/5 would be 160% TP bonus on the move. Legs +2 are +50 though, and having Caller's Pendant would increase TP between BPs at 37.5% (15*2.5). Just those alone would mean that, without having the avatar on the mob, Heavenly Strike would have 247.5% TP on it all the time. Having the avatar melee would put it above 300% TP. Avatars don't need atma for getting TP. And Dallas still assumes that Physical BPs > Magical with RR, Apoc and VV? Just Beyond alone would do more damage with Heavenly Strike than Predator Claws, more consistent damage (5% resist rate instead of having 5% miss rate on each of the 3-6 hits on Predator Claws) and is more likely going to be effected by +2 set than any Physical BPs.

And with magical BPs, you can include 2 other atmas on it, which can differ what you are doing (solo or party style play).

[Byrth]

Also, Avatar base damage appears to be 1 STR = 1 base damage, so that's why STR Atma are so good for Avatars. I think people often forget that we have a limited understanding of how TP affects Physical BPs though. For instance (and I haven't done any kind of controlled test here), I'm not sure 300TP Spinning Dives do any more damage than 0TP Spinning Dives. I don't know how TP is modding that, but it's in some non-obvious way (perhaps crit rate?).

[Alhanelem]

I'm not sure why anyone would be on SMN inside Abyssea thoughBecause that's the job they chose to level? Not everyone is an elitist who levels every single job and only plays the "good" ones.


I think people often forget that we have a limited understanding of how TP affects Physical BPs thoughlimited understanding? we have a total understanding. TP has precisely zero effect on physical BPs, it only affects magical BPs. TP does not get consumed when you use a physical BP and does get consumed when you use a magical BP. It doesn't take a genious, especially with the fairly obvious lack of benefit (Use a BP that doesn't vary as wildly as pclaws) to see that TP is not used in any way shape or form on them.


If you can make it to 2500MP in your Myrkr set you're only gaining 100 MP over +2 perp cost staves + MM.apples to oranges comparison. You aren't considering the beneficial effects of the atma you'd use in its place, either. Theorycraft also routinely differs from practice. Myrkr continues to benefit you when you have perpetuation in other slots. You seem to be assuming that the user is wearing no perp cost. We don't even need a weapon to offset perp cost, so a comparison to a +2 perp cost staff is meaningless.

I'm not dallas. I don't wear a maximum DD set for hvergelmir. When I'm alone, the monster still dies faster, DD set or not, and my MP stays full.


and is more likely going to be effected by +2 set than any Physical BPs.Um how do you figure? The set bonus doesn't say "oh, this is a physical pact, I don't feel like activating for it today."

[Malamasala]

I'm not sure 300TP Spinning Dives do any more damage than 0TP Spinning Dives. I don't know how TP is modding that, but it's in some non-obvious way (perhaps crit rate?).

I'm a firm believer that TP does nothing unless it gets eaten. Only exception I think exists is how BLU TP helps their spell accuracy, but that might just be some random rumor I once heard.

[Neisan_Quetz]

That's just a rumor, TP doesn't affect physical blue spells without CA/Efflux I believe, and mainly affects them in the way described in the description of the spell (if it says damage varies by TP etc.). Holding TP on BLU does nothing but make you deal less damage.

[Korpg]

Avatar TP does not lower at all with Physical BPs. You can test this yourself by typing /pettp before a Physical BP, use that Physical BP, and type /pettp again.

[Alhanelem]

That's just a rumorIt's not a rumor, it's a fact. I'm more sure about it than everything else I've said on this forum ever.

Physical BPs do not consume TP (really, just use <pettp> before and after. It's not hard.). Magic BPs do.

Magic BPs gain a clear benefit from TP. Physical BPs don't. Not just damage BPs either, healing bloodpacts all gain potency from TP.

If TP isn't consumed, it's not doing anything.

[Korpg]

It's not a rumor, it's a fact. I'm more sure about it than everything else I've said on this forum ever.

Physical BPs do not consume TP (really, just use <pettp> before and after. It's not hard.). Magic BPs do.

Magic BPs gain a clear benefit from TP. Physical BPs don't. Not just damage BPs either, healing bloodpacts all gain potency from TP.

If TP isn't consumed, it's not doing anything.

He was talking about BLU spells and being effected by TP outside of Chain Affinity. He was not talking about BPs.

[Neisan_Quetz]

EDIT: Korpg got it, nitpick Efflux is included to that but otherwise yes that was what I meant.

[Alhanelem]

Ah, OK. somewhere I missed that.

[Tannlore]

If you are in an alliance, and you are hitting the mob people are fighting, you are feeding it TP by hitting it. Thus, even if you are contributing significantly by hitting the mob, you are still costing allies resources, by causing more TP moves from the mob.

So does everything that hits the nm. This is why you TP on other mobs. Who said I... or any smn with a brain would be TPing on the nm? Again, smn = solo job. I can easily pull off any nearby mob by myself, not need to bother a nearby healer to babysit me and build my own tp... and while I'm at it, send the avatar off BP the nm (or not even if it's a merit BP, they are ranged) and still work on building TP.

This point is moot, old, and needs to stop being brought up. It doesn't hold water for other jobs, it doesn't hold water here either. There are other methods for building TP than beating on the nm the alliance is fighting: Wings, nearby mobs, etc.

Only a moron would feed nms tp like this ya? :)

[Economizer]

I was not attacking you, condemning your playstyle or saying anything that wasn't completely true. I was merely answering the question. Note that I said "even if you are contributing significantly" which would be everyone hitting the mob. Further, you said "doing damage with my staff", implying you were hitting the mob in the theoretical situation. Not every situation has side mobs for you to hit, and other methods of TP gain can either expensive items or other factors that drain ally resources.

Please don't assume everyone is attacking you, I was merely answering the question you asked about gameplay mechanics. TP build costs allied resources.

[Alhanelem]

Not every situation has side mobs for you to hit, and other methods of TP gain can either expensive items or other factors that drain ally resources.


until the "resources" you are "costing" become significant, everything is fine. e.g. unless the WHM(s) is/are struggling to keep everyone alive, then you're not damaging the group's success.

[Economizer]

until the "resources" you are "costing" become significant, everything is fine. e.g. unless the WHM(s) is/are struggling to keep everyone alive, then you're not damaging the group's success.

But that's the thing! I never judged if he was damaging the groups success, only that it costs resources to do what he is doing.

I'm a little bugged that I got such a negative reply on such a bland answer, while we have others around here saying things like "Summoners is a shitty Warrior" or whatever statements are flying around. :mad:

[Leonlionheart]

I'm a little bugged that I got such a negative reply on such a bland answer, while we have others around here saying things like "Summoners is a shitty Warrior" or whatever statements are flying around.

Well, I guess everything that can deal damage is a shitty Warrior in a sense now isn't it?

:trollface: u mad?

Edit: /epeen off

[SpankWustler]

Well, I guess everything that can deal damage is a shitty Warrior in a sense now isn't it?

But, doesn't everything that can deal damage include Warrior itself? Man, in that case, that's some heavy and philosophical stuff...

[Leonlionheart]

But, doesn't everything that can deal damage include Warrior itself? Man, in that case, that's some heavy and philosophical stuff...

I had something witty to say, but I forgot it.

[Economizer]

I had something witty to say, but I forgot it.

That's because Warrior is a shitty SpankWustler.

[Dallas]

If you are too stupid to handle multiple roles in a party, play WAR.

[Tannlore]

I was not attacking you, condemning your playstyle or saying anything that wasn't completely true. I was merely answering the question. Note that I said "even if you are contributing significantly" which would be everyone hitting the mob. Further, you said "doing damage with my staff", implying you were hitting the mob in the theoretical situation.

Please don't assume everyone is attacking you, I was merely answering the question you asked about gameplay mechanics. TP build costs allied resources.

The problems of assumptions is that it is very easy to do it yourself. My post was generalized on purpose. I never said "Economizer, you" directly for a reason.

"This point needs to stop being brought up" as opposed to, "Economizer, You need to stop bringing this point up" mostly because you didn't bring this point up in the first place. I even added a :) at the end to blunt the sharpness of what I knew was something you might see as directed at you. You do realize this yes? And now this post IS directed right at you. This is the difference. Not every strongly worded response is an attack either. Stop assuming so.

Now to address the rest of your post:
1)Not every situation has side mobs for you to hit,2) and other methods of TP gain can either expensive items or 3)other factors that drain ally resources.

As I said earlier: Learn to adapt your play style to the weapon, not the weapon to your play style

1) No other mobs to gain TP: use items, or use perp- staves. Yes the emp staff can infact come off a smn's back (mine does)
2) the cost of items to fuel my TP is of no concern/effect to the alliance. It is of concern to my pocket book. Quite frankly (And if this sounds rude I'm sorry, but it's true) the alliance can flush it's concern for my gil's pocket book down the toilet where it belongs.
3)Other factors being what? It boils down to the player knowing how to use the staff. People have focused so much on how bad the staff is and it isn't. The PLAYERS are bad, not the staff.

(this is generalized and not directed at you btw)
Stop blaming the staff, blame the bad players using the staff.

[Leonlionheart]

If you are too stupid to handle multiple roles in a party, play WAR.

obligatory

u mad bro?

[Tannlore]

If you can make it to 2500MP in your Myrkr set you're only gaining 100 MP over +2 perp cost staves + MM. Not including weather/day bonus on hands, you need body+2, feet+2, ring and ToM Perpetuation cost -6 staff to break even on perpetuation of Avatars (before Refresh). So we're looking at a difference of 16 MP/tick vs 16.6 MP/tick (if my math is right?). Also, over TP at all and you're losing a chunk of what Hvergelmir actually has. Add in regain earring though, and you're in the clear.

That being said, you should be justified to use the Regain +2 Atmacite in Voidwatch, which actually creates a big draw to the MP recover aspect of the weapon. (The Atmacite in question gets +2 at Lv.10, as seen on the test server).

Still, Hvergelmir is only a niche weapon. That's it. SCH and BLM will benefit more from MM in Abyssea, and MAB/Sphere: Refresh Atmacite in Voidwatch. Even still, it's a bad idea to melee on any of those jobs.

Unless you have said criteria met, you shouldn't use the weapon.

I had to bite on this one :D

Problem with theorycrafting is paper math is only good on paper! Having the weapon myself, here is what experience has shown me:

I have free avatars now, at 95 avatars will cost me 2 perp a tick with emp staff on, or nothing free+ with my perp- staves on. Perp is still and will not be an issue. However that being said. Here is what experience has taught me and I welcome anyone on asura to come and test with me btw:

In the time it takes me to build 100% tp I can overcome naked perp costs + the cost of a ward and rage BP outside of abyssea soloing. (yes I know this isn't in a great big giant alliance set up)

In abyssea with atmas it takes me much less time to achive the above effect (and I can do this in a great big alliance set up.. hey!)

with MM it takes me a bit longer to recover the lost mp it, outside of abyssea I have no hopes of recovering that mp without dismissing and siphoning or resting or ideling and letting my auto-refresh recover it.

And that's the point: It's not just the perp you recover with this staff, it's the cost of blood pacting you get back. Perp recover is a thing of the past and easily overcome with just gear. You can get free avatars without a weapon all together now.

[Dallas]

obligatory

u mad bro?

Remedial SMN lessons. Get some. +2 magian staves are worthless in the hands of a competent and well geared SMN. You are obviously neither and everyone can see it. Go back to "love my WAR." It suits you better.

[Leonlionheart]

Remedial SMN lessons. Get some. +2 magian staves are worthless in the hands of a competent and well geared SMN. You are obviously neither and everyone can see it. Go back to "love my WAR." It suits you better.

lol yeah, u mad fo sho bro

[Sira]

there is a difference between "free" and having "free + refresh"

you can have a free garuda and 6-9 refresh depending on the circumstances, so that means in between blood pacts you regain 90 to 135 mp at the minimum, which is rather dodgey at best if you can get them at exactly 45 seconds let alone given the option that you WILL be spamming them, so we'll say you will be getting around 102 to 153 mp in between pacts. Now your standard blood pacts for garuda costs 112 to 164 mp, so eventually you will have to siphon, and that would be quite rare if you were acting as you should as a summoner.

now if you were to use Hvergelmir you will have a rather backwards effect, instead of having a constant gain of mp, you will have a free garuda, but no free or costly blood pacts. your solution would be to melee at the cost of more mp to cover the costs of cures and generally everything you would need to survive, thats if you dont get hit with a devastating AOE, so not only are you burning mp from your blood pacts but you are also burning mp to keep yourself well defended from the mob you are willfully attacking to get back 500-600 mp per myrkr.

so with the amount of mp you are burning to remain productive, myrkr isnt really doing anything at all.

Now if you wanted to remain with a perp stave and not siphon while riding your timers hard or what ever situation where you would actually run low on mp, you could pop on Hvergelmir and a wing to go wack the mob with myrkr to gain some of that mp back and return to standing back.

on a low lvl mob i can kind of see meleeing to add the minimal extra dmg, but on anything worth a damn you should be no where near the mob, you aren't getting gear like the typical melee jobs are, nor are you combat skills set correctly to handle getting attacked. So do us all a favor, act like the pet job that you are playing, and stand the fuck back out of the way.

[Dallas]

lol yeah, u mad fo sho bro

Simple math: -1000 perp = -12 perp. -1000 BP timer = -15 BP timer.

Since -12 perp and -15 BP timer are available on other gear, and all other pieces are macro only, magian +2 is worthless to a competent and well geared SMN. What idiot taught you how to play SMN?

[Neisan_Quetz]

ITT: Pet: attack/accuracy/magic attack staves do nothing (actually, I'll even give you the attack staff does nothing).

Nirvana craps all over Hvelg.

[Dallas]

Let's put this in terms the WAR will understand:

A SMN wielding a magian perp staff is as stupid as a WAR wearing a D54 G.Axe with 10% Haste.

[Alhanelem]

Nirvana craps all over Hvelg.
Not really. The perp- isn't needed, and the WS doesn't actually require the weapon. I'ts only markedly better for using magic BPs.
I would probably use one if I had one, but Hvergelmir is obtainable whereas Nirvana is not (Both the weapon and the state of mind :p )

[Dallas]

Nirvana craps all over Hvelg.
Until it runs out of MP. Then it craps all over itself.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you're dding like Dallas apparently does, then Nirvana does crap all over hvelg for damage since it includes avatars. Not that it matters since aside from trash mobs the Smn shouldn't be meleeing anyway. Inside you can keep mp up without having to use Myrkr, outside it's either 75 content/WoE or VW where you won't be meleeing.

[Tannlore]

there is a difference between "free" and having "free + refresh"

you can have a free garuda and 6-9 refresh depending on the circumstances, so that means in between blood pacts you regain 90 to 135 mp at the minimum, which is rather dodgey at best if you can get them at exactly 45 seconds let alone given the option that you WILL be spamming them, so we'll say you will be getting around 102 to 153 mp in between pacts. Now your standard blood pacts for garuda costs 112 to 164 mp, so eventually you will have to siphon, and that would be quite rare if you were acting as you should as a summoner.

now if you were to use Hvergelmir you will have a rather backwards effect, instead of having a constant gain of mp, you will have a free garuda, but no free or costly blood pacts. your solution would be to melee at the cost of more mp to cover the costs of cures and generally everything you would need to survive, thats if you dont get hit with a devastating AOE, so not only are you burning mp from your blood pacts but you are also burning mp to keep yourself well defended from the mob you are willfully attacking to get back 500-600 mp per myrkr.

so with the amount of mp you are burning to remain productive, myrkr isnt really doing anything at all.

Now if you wanted to remain with a perp stave and not siphon while riding your timers hard or what ever situation where you would actually run low on mp, you could pop on Hvergelmir and a wing to go wack the mob with myrkr to gain some of that mp back and return to standing back.

on a low lvl mob i can kind of see meleeing to add the minimal extra dmg, but on anything worth a damn you should be no where near the mob, you aren't getting gear like the typical melee jobs are, nor are you combat skills set correctly to handle getting attacked. So do us all a favor, act like the pet job that you are playing, and stand the fuck back out of the way.

Yikes... You have been misinformed on this staff and how the WS works. 20/40/60% MP. 500/600mp at 60% mp? As a summoner if you are getting back 600 mp at 60% of your max mp pool call a GM, your character is damaged.

Let's begin here.. First off, if you are being hit over and over again with AoE you fail as a summoner. Get out of stupid and stop being in AoE that's what you have a pet for, put on your perp- stave if you don't have a regain atma on. I've said this in past posts, you did read these before you posted this.... this.. diatribe yes? I hope you did. I get back 1600-1800MP a WS with my staff, yes.. 1600-1800 a WS, not 500-600. I don't know where you get your numbers from.. but man... gear your WS please in fact I usualy HOLD my tp for ever because it's a waste to blow 300% tp/1600 mp on a WS (And yeah I'm spamming my BP: Rages AND wards over and over). Constant MP gain is great, but if your mp is full, what's it gaining you? Since I've gotten my staff I've siphoned .... wait I haven't had to siphon once.... at all... ever... since I got the staff. And you know what? I find it AMAZING! I find it liberating!

On holding my TP. If I'm in a battle where, for instance I need to output max damage fast in say abyssea and I know the fights won't be long and drawn out? I'll skip on using my emp staff, put on MM and use my magian magic atk stave instead. I've said it before, the staff isn't glued to my back. It comes off.

All I am detecting is someone who made a magian stave and is feeling hurt over having done that work. Don't be. I have them too and I use them when it isn't convenient to use my Emp staff. It isn't always convenient to use my emp staff. But you can not dismiss the power of the emp staff. It is limitless MP. You can use the WS from a distance.... MAX engagement distance, it never misses, garners no aggro (you can target some random mob you have not even engaged/aggroed, used the ws and put the weapon away... the mob won't even blink at you) and go your merry way.

All I ever hear from people when they see this staff is: LOL you made that staff then once they see me use it for 10 mins is: OMG I want to make that staff!

[Dallas]

There's no way you are keeping up MP *and* keeping Nirvana's 300% TP Aftermath up *and* using all the best DD atma. Let's not forget that you have to use all MAGICAL atma to play to Nirvana's strengths, so your physical DD is going to be awful. Occasionally does 2 pathetic melee attacks instead of one.

[Tannlore]

If you're dding like Dallas apparently does, then Nirvana does crap all over hvelg for damage since it includes avatars. Not that it matters since aside from trash mobs the Smn shouldn't be meleeing anyway. Inside you can keep mp up without having to use Myrkr, outside it's either 75 content/WoE or VW where you won't be meleeing.

for summoner Nirvana is king. Hail to the king, praise be to Nirvana!

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you're using all magical atma you aren't meleeing in the first place and should be spamming Heavenly strike/Elemental affinity atma+avatar of your choice, and no you don't have to sacrifice all melee atma to keep MP up.

[Sira]

Yikes... You have been misinformed on this staff and how the WS works. 20/40/60% MP. 500/600mp at 60% mp? As a summoner if you are getting back 600 mp at 60% of your max mp pool call a GM, your character is damaged.

Let's begin here.. First off, if you are being hit over and over again with AoE you fail as a summoner. Get out of stupid and stop being in AoE that's what you have a pet for, put on your perp- stave if you don't have a regain atma on. I've said this in past posts, you did read these before you posted this.... this.. diatribe yes? I hope you did. I get back 1600-1800MP a WS with my staff, yes.. 1600-1800 a WS, not 500-600. I don't know where you get your numbers from.. but man... gear your WS please in fact I usualy HOLD my tp for ever because it's a waste to blow 300% tp/1600 mp on a WS (And yeah I'm spamming my BP: Rages AND wards over and over). Constant MP gain is great, but if your mp is full, what's it gaining you? Since I've gotten my staff I've siphoned .... wait I haven't had to siphon once.... at all... ever... since I got the staff. And you know what? I find it AMAZING! I find it liberating!

On holding my TP. If I'm in a battle where, for instance I need to output max damage fast in say abyssea and I know the fights won't be long and drawn out? I'll skip on using my emp staff, put on MM and use my magian magic atk stave instead. I've said it before, the staff isn't glued to my back. It comes off.

All I am detecting is someone who made a magian stave and is feeling hurt over having done that work. Don't be. I have them too and I use them when it isn't convenient to use my Emp staff. It isn't always convenient to use my emp staff. But you can not dismiss the power of the emp staff. It is limitless MP. You can use the WS from a distance.... MAX engagement distance, it never misses, garners no aggro (you can target some random mob you have not even engaged/aggroed, used the ws and put the weapon away... the mob won't even blink at you) and go your merry way.

All I ever hear from people when they see this staff is: LOL you made that staff then once they see me use it for 10 mins is: OMG I want to make that staff!
First off i have zero problem with the staff, i dont care for people that think they can melee with it. for your opening statement, im referring to ws-ing at 100%, if you use a wing to get 300% tp, kudos you're using it right.

2nd what ARE you meleeing that is worth a damn that ISN'T AOEing, perfectly legit question.

For your 3rd statement: double kudos, this was directed at people that full time the staff because they believe the other ones are for noobs

4th statement: hardly, im a sch and dnc main, i have the woe version of this staff so i very well know the range of the ws and how useful it can be, im in no way upset about this weapon, im just borderlined baffled how people can use this staff as a justification to happily go kill themselves, that's a drk's job, leave that to them.

last statement: i dont dislike the staff (said this a couple times now) i just dont care for actually meleeing in it.

edit: Using VV in abyssea is ok too, since it also doesnt require you to melee, and your avatar benifiets from it.

[Tannlore]

First off i have zero problem with the staff, i dont care for people that think they can melee with it. for your opening statement, im referring to ws-ing at 100%, if you use a wing to get 300% tp, kudos you're using it right.

2nd what ARE you meleeing that is worth a damn that ISN'T AOEing, perfectly legit question.

For your 3rd statement: double kudos, this was directed at people that full time the staff because they believe the other ones are for noobs

4th statement: hardly, im a sch and dnc main, i have the woe version of this staff so i very well know the range of the ws and how useful it can be, im in no way upset about this weapon, im just borderlined baffled how people can use this staff as a justification to happily go kill themselves, that's a drk's job, leave that to them.

last statement: i dont dislike the staff (said this a couple times now) i just dont care for actually meleeing in it.

1) A well geared summoner (full +2) with the correct accessories at 100%tp can easily offset the costs of perp+ blood pact costs. Having the WoE version of the staff you know this to be true and it still holds true even at 95. I tested this out on the test server and was quite delighted to see it was still good. the fact that the 95 version has even more mp made me very happy. I can easily break 2.1k MP outside of aby now. (But then again, unless you're in a pinch, you would never use this unless you were at 300% tp.)

2) What would you BE meleeing that DOES AoE? That is the question? I mean seriously, you aren't a paladin... and this isn't 2003. If it AoEs, don't walk up to it. What do I melee that doesn't AoE? Things I farm for gil, things in abyssea whose AoE are conical/frontal/rear, things whore AoE are so pathetically weak they don't break stoneskin. And if I DO have to farm something I need to melee that does AoE and for some god aweful reason I need to stand head to toe with and melee, It doesn't matter, my Myrky completely recoveres almost all my MP reservers. I can spam magic till the cows come home. You have the WoE version, you should know this.

3) Yes, full timers /bonk "no, bad.. bad"

4) This was more at the "So do us all a favor, act like the pet job that you are playing, and stand back out of the way" completely ignoring your staff skill is just plain dumb too. Be smart about how you engage mobs and you will be fine.

5) As for not meleeing in it you don't care much for it because you don't have the true staff. My LS mentioned to me when we completed it that I could have just made the WoE version and have been just as happy. This sentiment changed two seconds after the first 300% WS. I was in abyssea and had a Level 3 aftermath on with VV RR and Apoc. Garuda just Pred clawed a mob, and I trippeled attacked a mob for 715, 718, 712. That's 2145 damage in melee swings.

Edit: that damage was in perp gear too, no melee gear or anything to boost it. Imagine if I had that on? ugh.. I sound like Dallas....

[Sira]

fair enough for the most part, how would you far against zone bosses, or voidwatch? i mean atmas are nice but how often would you use the staff if you weren't in abyssea? also im pretty babied with being a dnc main where a dnc can damn near solo 90% of the abyssea content, even then for the most part you shouldnt be soloing and then im not entirely sure how i would feel if i was tanking and a smn came up next to me and started wacking the mob with his blue lightsaber thing. but from your statement you would only use it/melee on things that you would farm? kinda goes back to the mobs being worthwhile (fight wise, not drop wise) and other jobs would do a fair bit better on the melee front, BUT i wont go about "this job is better for this so use it" route.

[Dallas]

If you're using all magical atma you aren't meleeing in the first place and should be spamming Heavenly strike/Elemental affinity atma+avatar of your choice, and no you don't have to sacrifice all melee atma to keep MP up.

Sacrificing 1 atma for Minikin, using /RDM, perp gear, L75 BPs, Siphon... they all take away from damage. Hvergelmir returns so much MP, that none of these sacrifices are necessary.

If you are using a 90 DMG 402 delay staff, trying to beat a 98 DMG 390 delay staff, you can't afford to sacrifice anything. You will have to play the exact same way Hvergelmir does: full haste, full BPs. By my scorecard, that's +3 perp and PC every 45 seconds, which amounts to 840 mp every 3 minutes.

The only recourse is Spirit Taker, which WILL miss. Nirvana does not have the staying power of Hvergelmir. You will sacrifice a lot of damage to maintain Aftermath.

[Razushu]

Until it runs out of MP. Then it craps all over itself.

No one is running out of MP anymore(in or outside Abyssea), with a good gearset it's possible to fight indefinitely as SMN nowadays, most the time I don't even use a refesh atma anymore because I have more than enough MP without them. If you NEED a hvergelmir to play without resting there's seriously something wrong with your gear set.

[Tannlore]

fair enough for the most part, how would you far against zone bosses, or voidwatch? i mean atmas are nice but how often would you use the staff if you weren't in abyssea? also im pretty babied with being a dnc main where a dnc can damn near solo 90% of the abyssea content, even then for the most part you shouldnt be soloing and then im not entirely sure how i would feel if i was tanking and a smn came up next to me and started wacking the mob with his blue lightsaber thing. but from your statement you would only use it/melee on things that you would farm? kinda goes back to the mobs being worthwhile (fight wise, not drop wise) and other jobs would do a fair bit better on the melee front, BUT i wont go about "this job is better for this so use it" route.

Well I use it on events and such too, but it depends on the encounter. Every encounter has it's own strategy and has to be approached differently. If it's appropriate to swing the staff, then I'll swing it. If it isn't, then it stays on my back. Regain atmas are my best friend now in aby yeah. I'm never going to let my lust for swinging this thing overcome the success of my alliance. Alliance success trumps everything else. This points just to what I posted earlier: It isn't the staff that's the problem, It's the players with the staff. Sad, but true. It is an amazing weapon but people need to adapt to it.

As for the this job is better for this route, I'll address that just by saying this: Smn is my main job, it has been since 2003. It's pretty much a passion for me. I've done my best to find ways to make it work where I can, and when it just can't work I adjust and play another job when needed. I can solo/tank lots of stuff in abyssea T3vnms, major nms, etc on smn. So it isn't about which job makes this easier to do, it's about how can I do this on summoner. What I like about this staff is that i actually made that a lot easier believe it or not. It's a good weapon for summoner.

[Sira]

Well I use it on events and such too, but it depends on the encounter. Every encounter has it's own strategy and has to be approached differently. If it's appropriate to swing the staff, then I'll swing it. If it isn't, then it stays on my back. Regain atmas are my best friend now in aby yeah. I'm never going to let my lust for swinging this thing overcome the success of my alliance. Alliance success trumps everything else. This points just to what I posted earlier: It isn't the staff that's the problem, It's the players with the staff. Sad, but true. It is an amazing weapon but people need to adapt to it.

As for the this job is better for this route, I'll address that just by saying this: Smn is my main job, it has been since 2003. It's pretty much a passion for me. I've done my best to find ways to make it work where I can, and when it just can't work I adjust and play another job when needed. I can solo/tank lots of stuff in abyssea T3vnms, major nms, etc on smn this staff actually made that a lot easier believe it or not. It's a good weapon for summoner.

well then good, we are of like mind. As i said before, i like the ws, im just not going to pull a dallas and use the staff as an excuse to be stupid.

[Tannlore]

well then good, we are of like mind. As i said before, i like the ws, im just not going to pull a dallas and use the staff as an excuse to be stupid.

:D

I foresee an incoming Dallas tactical nuclear attack at any moment

[Vicious]

Here's an interesting question; how much better does Hvergelmir become in non-melee situations if we get a Regain BP on the way to 99?

[Razushu]

:D

I foresee an incoming Dallas tactical nuclear attack at any moment

I predict more mocking of the magian +2s as useless(and a waste of time because it's easy to zero out perp with basic gear), while inisisting Hvergelmir is the only way to get free Avatars indefinitely, and all this without a hint of irony.

^This, or one of his usual examples of comedic genius(shame he's serious):D

[Dallas]

Here's an interesting question; how much better does Hvergelmir become in non-melee situations if we get a Regain BP on the way to 99?

Right now, 100% TP = 360 MP outside of Abyssea. 1 regain = 3.6 refresh. A theoretical 4 regain Cait Sith favor is the same as 14.4 refresh.

[Korpg]

If you are too stupid to handle multiple roles in a party, play WAR.

Is that why you are pretending to be a WAR?

[Byrth]

Once more, viability arguments that rely on Atma are a waste of time. No one needs MP in Abyssea, and no one needs Summoner there either.

[Sargent]

2 ways to "fix" Hvergelmir (or adapt it to the BLM/SCH playstyle)
1) Add a Job Trait that allows you to keep TP when switching weapons of the same type. Since both BLM/SCH both have Occult Acumen, problem solved.
2) Add Magic Potency or the like to the weapon.

SE isn't going to do either.

[Dallas]

:D

I foresee an incoming Dallas tactical nuclear attack at any moment

It's not the stupidest straw man ever created. Situational has always been the rule, and the situation is almost always melee. If it weren't true, no one would level crap jobs like WAR that only have melee.

[Sira]

please dont have babies with rosina...

[Dallas]

Once more, viability arguments that rely on Atma are a waste of time. No one needs MP in Abyssea, and no one needs Summoner there either.

Tell that to the Nirvana guy who wants us to talk about him. Otherwise, you can get back to BG.

[Vicious]

Once more, viability arguments that rely on Atma are a waste of time. No one needs MP in Abyssea, and no one needs Summoner there either.

If you're farming NMs or boxes, sure... but what about gaining XP/Merits, skilling up, breaking trial weapons, grinding Magian trials, or simply testing your skill against a NM for the personal value?

This thread isn't about how SMN is useless in Abyssea, it's about Hvergelmir supposedly being useless. It isn't. I don't see how your point has anything to do with it.


Right now, 100% TP = 360 MP outside of Abyssea. 1 regain = 3.6 refresh. A theoretical 4 regain Cait Sith favor is the same as 14.4 refresh.

Thanks for doing all that hard math for us, but I was looking for more of an answer regarding the applications and implications of such an ability.

[Dallas]

Applications? It's MP. It's measurable. You spend it.

[Vicious]

Precisely the sort of enlightened discourse I'd expect from you, thanks.

[Dallas]

Let's break it down for you then: MP is spent on spells, avatar perp, and avatar BPs. If you get more MP, you can spend more. If you get too much of it, nothing happens. 14.4 refresh + 2 autorefresh = 328MP/minute. Just sitting around doing nothing, you can afford to keep an avatar out for 3 perp and spam BP rages.

Repeat this calculation for any number you want to fantasize about. Speculation about how much MP you will have from a BP that doesnt exist is not "enlightened."

[Vicious]

No consideration whatsoever of how it would affect parties, or SMN's place in them, just some easy math, a pissy attitude, and a handwave. No wonder nobody likes you.

[Leonlionheart]

No consideration whatsoever of how it would affect parties, or SMN's place in them, just some easy math, a pissy attitude, and a handwave. No wonder nobody likes you.

shut down~

[Sira]

/thread for you dallas

[Alhanelem]

Leonheart rarely gets likes from me... but he definitely scored one today. :p

[Dallas]

No consideration whatsoever of how it would affect parties, or SMN's place in them, just some easy math, a pissy attitude, and a handwave. No wonder nobody likes you.

I tell you what, princess... If you want to know how regain BPs will impact parties, ask that, and not this:


Here's an interesting question; how much better does Hvergelmir become in non-melee situations if we get a Regain BP on the way to 99?

You show me the tardilope that figured out your question, then we can figure out why they didn't respond to you.

[Dallas]

I know this is stupid obvious, but regain is otherwise useless in "non-melee situations." Hey, he asked it.

EDIT to add: SMN having problems getting invited to non-melee situations? Dubya-Tee-Eff. LOL

[Vicious]

I believe I responded to your initial post where you flashed your considerable math skills with this:


but I was looking for more of an answer regarding the applications and implications of such an ability.

Anyone posting in good faith would have been able to figure out that I was expanding on the initial question to better articulate the sort of discussion I was looking for in the first place. Failure to do so indicates one of two things; you willfully ignored it so you could pursue being a jackass, or you're retarded.

Since I'm a nice guy, I'm going to let you take your pick.

[Dallas]

Let me know when someone tackles explaining to you why Regain doesn't work at a fight where you kill the NM with RNG, SMN, and BLM. I have no intention of giving you the benefit of the doubt.

[Vicious]

Yeah, damn, you are so right, how could I be so stupid. What use could a Hvergelmir SMN, Wildfire COR, or a RNG (especially a Relic RNG) possibly make of a Regain buff in a situation where feeding TP to build TP isn't feasible?

I know I said I'd give you the choice, but I'm leaning toward the latter option from my above post.

[Meyi]

Dammit, Dallas arrived.

[Korpg]

Right now, 100% TP = 360 MP outside of Abyssea. 1 regain = 3.6 refresh. A theoretical 4 regain Cait Sith favor is the same as 14.4 refresh.

Yes, 1 regain = 3.6 refresh. Too bad you can't use the "Refresh" for 5 minutes though. And only for about 360 mp. Think you can keep your avatar out that long for 5 minutes?

[Dallas]

Yeah, damn, you are so right, how could I be so stupid. What use could a Hvergelmir SMN, Wildfire COR, or a RNG (especially a Relic RNG) possibly make of a Regain buff in a situation where feeding TP to build TP isn't feasible?

I know I said I'd give you the choice, but I'm leaning toward the latter option from my above post.
I still don't see a single person hopping to help you play fanboy, and they hate me. Guess no one gives a crap, so you can do something unoriginal and talk about RNG in a SMN thread, or you can move on. I will gladly make you hate talking to me.

[SpankWustler]

I still don't see a single person hopping to help you play fanboy, and they hate me. Guess no one gives a crap, so you can do something unoriginal and talk about RNG in a SMN thread, or you can move on. I will gladly make you hate talking to me.

Ranger, Summoner and to a lesser extent Corsair are ideal in similar circumstances, since they all deal physical damage from a range while simultaneously providing the monster with less TP (less TP than most melee jobs in the case of Ranger and Corsair, no TP in the case of Summoner). Well, it's not always physical damage in the case of Corsair, but it's one of the few jobs that has that as an option so I decided to include it. Wildfire is better when applicable.

Also, you seem to be over-looking that Ranger and Corsair have the most uneven TP phase(hitting things)/weapon skill phase splits of all jobs that hit things with things.

I'll spell it out. A regain ability on Summoner would increase the job's synergy with jobs that serve a similar purpose, increase the usefulness of Havartidangler in ideal situations for Summoner, and increase Havartidangler's synergy with Summoner in general.

Yeah, I guess I'm being whooshed by an alien mother-ship from the planet of air elementals or something. I don't care. The original question was cool question. I feel it deserved more than a one-liner from a one-dimensional guy who knows one math equation that, much to Korpg's repeated and equally pointless chagrin, happens to be correct.

[Economizer]

I'll spell it out. A regain ability on Summoner would increase the job's synergy with jobs that serve a similar purpose, increase the usefulness of Havartidangler in ideal situations for Summoner, and increase Havartidangler's synergy with Summoner in general.

Summoners everywhere will die of misery if an Avatar's Favor does regain. Lets hope it is a blood pact, if SE decides Summoner should get it. Still, Light Spirit could cast 5TP/tic Adloquium, and nobody would know it yet.

[Byrth]

BP+Release Summoner is the most TP-feeding-efficient damage source if played well. BPs give 0 TP. This is another one of Summoner's strengths that you abandon when you melee something or let your avatar melee it.

Remember Scylla? Pretty nasty monster with the 75 cap. Uses several TP moves back to back when it gets TP and generally decimated whoever it was facing. Regardless, it was duo'able by RDM+SMN because it doesn't have regain and that combo can kill it without ever giving it TP.

[SpankWustler]

Remember Scylla? Pretty nasty monster with the 75 cap. Uses several TP moves back to back when it gets TP and generally decimated whoever it was facing. Regardless, it was duo'able by RDM+SMN because it doesn't have regain and that combo can kill it without ever giving it TP.

The easiest way to defeat Scylla was actually to not know anyone who cared about Dancer, and therefor to never fight him. Sometimes you have to think outside the box, man.

I edited the bit of my post about TP given. It turns out that being really high on muscle relaxants isn't conducive to clarity of written word. Sorry.

[Dallas]

BP/release is the reason this "what if" discussion fails. BLU can main heal, but they were invited for a higher purpose. Why the hell would SMN buff a RNG when the SMN replaced the RNG?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Replaced the RNG? I'm sorry, what? Unless your goal is 0 TP feed from a distance Smn isn't replacing a RNG in terms of ranged damage (as of 90 cap it would in safety although dying matters less to RNG than SMN; at 95 they'll be getting a new JA for transferring enmity), RNG doesn't provide support so you weren't replacing them there, you would have picked SMN or COR in the first place.

[Korpg]

I still don't see a single person hopping to help you play fanboy, and they hate me. Guess no one gives a crap, so you can do something unoriginal and talk about RNG in a SMN thread, or you can move on. I will gladly make you hate talking to me.

Maybe if you didn't blacklist those who disagree with you, you would see a whole lot more posts than what you choose to see.

[Dallas]

LOL. Dying matters less to RNG than a job with NO HATE PROBLEMS and NO SICKNESS PENALTIES? Drop your Nirvana if you have it, you are an embarrassment to SMN.

[Korpg]

LOL. Dying matters less to RNG than a job with NO HATE PROBLEMS and NO SICKNESS PENALTIES? Drop your Nirvana if you have it, you are an embarrassment to SMN.

You heard it here first folks.

Dallas rather have a Hver over a Nirvana. Hver does nothing for the pet, while Nirvana increases total damage AND has accuracy to boot for both the player AND the pet. This is to show you how Dallas is, which I have stated many times:

My way or the highway.

He even included that with his avatar. He wants to be a gimp WAR and let his avatar suffer for that, including all extra damage that would increase both sources of damage.

[Neisan_Quetz]

MP cut and in your case 100% Slow isn't a sickness penalty, okay, Rng doesn't rely on MP and ranged attacks aren't affected by Slow. I think it's clear who's hurt more by being weakened.

[Dallas]

We're talking non-melee, and I thought you permanent non-melee gimps had infinite mp. In any case, the situation is Hver + regain, a much better setup than those gimps anyway.

[Neisan_Quetz]

... I give up.

[scaevola]

Minor quibble:


Further, lets modify the WHM club shall we?

Gambanteinn
(Club) All Races
DMG: 78 Delay: 300 HP +70 MP +70
"Curaja"
Aftermath: Occ. deals double damage (inc. cures)
Lv. 90 WHM

Tada. You still have the second strongest club now tied to a cure spell that triggers the ability to deal double damage while also occasionally doubling cure results like any self-respecting WHM would be interested in.



Why would you want a weapon that randomly, uncontrollably doubled cure potency?

[Raksha]

Minor quibble:




Why would you want a weapon that randomly, uncontrollably doubled cure potency?

The weapon doesnt do that, the aftermath does. Not that i'm endorsing the idea.

[Atomic_Skull]

If you are too stupid to handle multiple roles in a party, play WAR MNK.

Fixed that for you.

[Leonlionheart]

Fixed that for you.

DD+Tank is one role these days

Edit: He's right though, WAR is kind of a 1 trick pony.

That 1 trick is dealing stupid amounts of damage though.

[Sira]

DD+Tank is one role these days

Edit: He's right though, WAR is kind of a 1 trick pony.

That 1 trick is dealing stupid amounts of damage though.
pif, dnc can do that and can look good while doing it

[Razushu]

DD+Tank is one role these days

Edit: He's right though, WAR is kind of a 1 trick pony.

That 1 trick is dealing stupid amounts of damage though.

Damn fine trick though:D

[Pyrobunny]

17 tusks from mine :D
a regain effect would be cool but its just toy when i feel like hiting shit
id sell my legs and my liver for a Nirvana tho

[Ank]

If you are too stupid to handle multiple roles in a party, play WAR MNK.

Fixed that for you.


Hey, it takes a lot of effort and concentration to punch people in the face and I take great pride in doing it twice in a row!

[Dallas]

Fixed that for you.

I think that all MNKs switch to PUP. SMN is stuck with the WARs.

I'm certain PUP got first pick.

[Leonlionheart]

I think that all MNKs switch to PUP. SMN is stuck with the WARs.

I'm certain PUP got first pick.

the hell is going on in this post

[Sira]

i think he was saying that pups > mnk and smn > war

[Leonlionheart]

i think he was saying that pups > mnk and smn > war

lolololololololololol

[SpankWustler]

the hell is going on in this post

I think he was saying this (http://s3.amazonaws.com/picable/2010/04/24/1802850_The-most-beautiful-picture-ever-drawn_400.jpg) or making a joke so esoteric that none of us got it. The bro actually has a great sense of humor sometimes.

[detlef]

"Who's the Boss" is not a food.

[Korpg]

"Who's the Boss" is not a food.

Very appropriate!

[Olor]

ODD? Is that Occasionally Double Damage? Or something else?

[Leonlionheart]

ODD? Is that Occasionally Double Damage? Or something else?

Occasionally deals Double Damage, yeah.

[Atomic_Skull]

DD+Tank is one role these days

Edit: He's right though, WAR is kind of a 1 trick pony.

That 1 trick is dealing stupid amounts of damage though.

MNK is even simpler though.

Engage mob

Use counterstance/focus/dodge/impetus/zerk/warcry every 5 minutes.

Use WS at 100% TP when applicable.

Go make sandwich/get drink/use restroom when needed.


WAR is almost as simple but MNK doesn't have to worry about an X-hit because it's largely useless with the way MNKs get their Kenshiro on.

[Vortex]

Not sure why anyone would do Empyrean Staff. If you want the WS do the WoE one, the max MP thing won't make MUCH of a diff to a SMN that has tons of MP, just macro in MP gear or something.

Because belive it or not people actually can...get this Make there own decision!

You really should think about what you say before actually saying it. in most cases WOE weapon are more annoying to get, i certainly wouldnt waste time for a waterd down version.

[Soranika]

SCH + Sublimation + Hvergelmir + Adloquium + ??? = profit?

Inside Abyssea, a SMN using MAB atma can free up space from MM to use a TP regain atma like SD or VV to stay physically competent and still deal out damage or heal with magic based blood pacts while mana cede cool down cast is active... cause you know, those use TP to be more effective. Then pop Myrkr (a self cast WS btw) to keep MP in tip top shape.

Outside abyssea, SCH make use for I said above. I think BLM get boned a little with this. TP is rather ineffective to them and with constantly switching staves to increase potency and accuracy of their next spell, TP won't sit still anyway. Not even the MP boost is all that appealing to BLM.

I'm 19 kukulkan fang's away from getting my death stick. Sedna Tusks are already complete and starting to collect dust. Here's open that they get more useful stats at 95 though to make them a bit more practical than situational.

[Chilzen]

Kinda late to the party, but after reading all the other posts, I have a few ideas if SE would like to consider them to increase the viability of this staff for the BLM / SCH more, since it's been proven to be a nice situational piece of gear for SMN under certain conditions.

Basically, if they want to turn Emp Staff into something comparable to the other Abyssea weapons, aka "One weapon to rule them all" in most cases, they need to revise it a bit to play up the strengths of the jobs that can use it.

1. Add some form of Occult Acumen bonus to Hver as either latent or else on the weapon itself.
2. Given the ODD is comfirmed from multiple sources to affect avatar physical damage and supposed BPs as well(Pwease don't remove this! We love you SE!), would it really be out of the question to allow it to affect the spells cast by a BLM / SCH? This is Abyssea Era, so people love big numbers on their damage.

I understand that SE designed these weapons to be basically the strongest in their class as far as melee DPS goes with a nice WS to help push them towards the top. I also would like to point out that both SCH and BLM have varying levels of Occult Acumen added to them about the time this weapon was added, so that opens up the possibility of a new playstyle for those two jobs that would ultimately benefit their use of this staff. As it stands, it's far more beneficial as the caster jobs to ignore what is supposed to be their "Ultimate" weapon of sorts and instead use the level 51ish Elemental Staves or the more recent Magian Staves to amplify their casting prowess on the battlefields.

Please consider the above if you're reading it at all, SE, and don't allow such a fine weapon to be reduced to a Campaign level melee toy for the BLM and SCH who put their time and effort into getting an Emp weapon. It's like Claustrom 2.0 in the mage sense of things currently, basically nice to look at for design, but very low practical use for what the players use their jobs for.

[Leonlionheart]

MNK is even simpler though.

Engage mob

Use counterstance/focus/dodge/impetus/zerk/warcry every 5 minutes.

Use WS at 100% TP when applicable.

Go make sandwich/get drink/use restroom when needed.


WAR is almost as simple but MNK doesn't have to worry about an X-hit because it's largely useless with the way MNKs get their Kenshiro on.

WAR is not easy!

... Blood Rage and Warcry don't stack so you have to use them separately. It's hard, yo.

[Dallas]

Since it takes me to keep things operating, a question for chilzen... What is this about ODD impacting avatars? I think you might be confusing wishful thinking with SE programming. There are at least 5 Hver SMN in this thread and I'm pretty sure we haven't said it.

[Korpg]

There are at least 5 Hver SMN in this thread and I'm pretty sure we haven't said it.

Who are the 5?

I know Al and Tarage, but are you counting yourself 3 times again?

[Dallas]

LOL, genoxd and tannlore and a 6th I challenge you to find. 3 others are almost done. At least 2 more want the weapon.

Korpg, it has been a pleasure viewing a single post to see you still don't read.

[Kimara]

Who are the 5?

I know Al and Tarage, but are you counting yourself 3 times again?

I know I'm working on one ^^. I guess I don't count though since I don't have it yet. Btw sounds like your trying to start a fight again :( maybe I'm wrong

[Korpg]

I know I'm working on one ^^. I guess I don't count though since I don't have it yet. Btw sounds like your trying to start a fight again :( maybe I'm wrong

Not starting a fight, was going to lead right to my next point.

Out of all those who have an emp staff, how many of them actually use it, or in other words, use it more frequently than any other emp weapon they might have? I'm sure that most staves were created out of sheer boredom, and is basically a town piece because they have better weapons/jobs to use/come as than a SMN pretending to be a melee. This is, of course, assuming that BLMs and SCHs don't actually nuke with that staff and use the TP gained from nukes now to recover their MP (which is a near impossibility because in order to regain more than half of their MP, they would need 300%). So, that leaves SMN with that staff when SMNs are there for something.

If people choose emp staff as their first choice in emp weapons, and have other jobs (DD mainly), then that is a very poor choice and they should reevaluate both their decision and the decision of the group that helped them get that staff. Because even Masamune is more useful as damage capabilities for any alliance than an Hvergelmir.

[Kimara]

I see... Well the staff for me is just a little side project while I'm working on nirvana, that's what I'm really gonna be using.

[Korpg]

I see... Well the staff for me is just a little side project while I'm working on nirvana, that's what I'm really gonna be using.

Nirvana is well worth it. Not only does it answer the underlying problem associated with melee SMNs (accuracy) it also helps improve damage capabilities of the avatar (MAB for Merited BPs) and the aftermath can be used for both the player and avatar (increased accuracy, increased attack/magic attack, and occasionally attacks twice all in one staff? What is wrong with that picture?)

Nirvana was made for the melee SMN in mind, not Hvergelmir. Hvergelmir is a toy, something to show to everyone how much free time you have, and how much your group really must love you in order to deal with 2 NMs not worth anyone's time. Bonus points for having a level 90 version, because you just wasted somebody's level 90 Kanagi and/or Almace, to become the ultimate troll staff. Hvergelmir was only created because there was a need for an emp staff for completion sake as far as emp weapons go, nothing more.

[Kimara]

I'd hope my husband loves me :p. Only need two people as I've said before sooo many people complain about wasting ls time when you don't need your ls's help to do it XD just one or two friends.

[Alhanelem]

I'd hope my husband loves me :p. Only need two people as I've said before sooo many people complain about wasting ls time when you don't need your ls's help to do it XD just one or two friends.
Pretty much this. It's essentially the easiest empyrean weapon to obtain and neither of the NMs for the first two empy stages are very difficult.

[Korpg]

Pretty much this. It's essentially the easiest empyrean weapon to obtain and neither of the NMs for the first two empy stages are very difficult.

While I agree with you that neither of the first 2 NMs are difficult, neither of the first 2 NMs offer any rewards at all.

Sure, Sedna gives out those nice +2 items, but still.

[Alhanelem]

However, I strongly, strongly disagree with your stance of empy being "nothing more than a toy." The one thing nirvana doesn't do is give you unlimited MP, since it's really unlikely that you even need the full amount of perp cost that nirvana gives. Yes, nirvana will give you a better damage output overall, that's for sure. But, you can't Garland every WS because you'll need to use spirit taker, and that means not getting the aftermath all the time; and garland is pretty weak, weaker than Cataclysm even, though the def. down does give it an edge.

In the places where I most use the staff (e.g. abyssea soloing), accuracy is not an issue.

[Economizer]

Nirvana was made for the melee SMN in mind, not Hvergelmir. Hvergelmir is a toy

I disagree. Hvergelmir is not a toy. Both staves are useful for melee Summoner, although they have vastly different play styles. Something every super staff has had that is useful for Summoner is MP regeneration or preservation. To dismiss it is kinda crappy.

[Dallas]

you'll need to use spirit taker

Spirit Taker = lost aftermath

Without aftermath, Nirvana is a big old bowl of soggy fail flakes.

[Korpg]

I disagree. Hvergelmir is not a toy. Both staves are useful for melee Summoner, although they have vastly different play styles. Something every super staff has had that is useful for Summoner is MP regeneration or preservation. To dismiss it is kinda crappy.

Hvergelmir only gives the player any additional buff. Sure, you can recover a lot of MP quickly if you manage to save 300% TP, but in the age where MP isn't an issue, even outside of Abyssea, MP recovery isn't all that great.

Nirvana not only gives the player an additional buff, it also requires less accuracy gear to actually hit anything outside of Abyssea, gives a huge boost of damage both inside and outside of Abyssea, and the aftermath affects both player and avatar. The only downside of Nirvana is that the WS of choice doesn't do much damage. But it still does more damage than Myrkr. And you don't have to save up to 300% TP to get the full effect of the aftermath.


– [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

I doubt you even blacklisted me anyway. Otherwise, you wouldn't even acknowledge my existence. Which it seems like you do every chance you get.

[Economizer]

Hvergelmir only gives the player any additional buff.

Naturally, Nirvana should be better, considering the effort, but ultimately, it doesn't make Hvergelmir a toy, or worthless, just like Hvergelmir doesn't make Nirvana worthless.

[Leonlionheart]

is this seriously turning into hvergelmir vs nirvana?

nirvana shits all over hvergelmir in every way

[Korpg]

Naturally, Nirvana should be better, considering the effort, but ultimately, it doesn't make Hvergelmir a toy, or worthless, just like Hvergelmir doesn't make Nirvana worthless.

Give me one good situation where whacking a mob as a melee SMN is a good idea. Where it is more preferable to bring a melee SMN than any other melee.

Trash mobs don't count because that isn't a good situation. Anyone can melee on level 50 mobs.

[Pyrobunny]

i just got mine i hit the shit out of everything NM or low lvl rabbit idc.
its alot bettter that sitting there waiting for the BP timer to go down

also with the +2 gloves i cap on perp cost no matter what staff i use.
so why not have a little fun and smack the shit out of IC or some other outside abyssea NM.

but there is a time and place for everything i'm not about to run in and start swinging on a raja/rani or one of the 3 wyrm...well i might swing at one of the wyrm.
and same with outside abyssea i'm not about to melee on a king behe

i'll still melee sky NM tho its always fun.

as for a nirvana id sell your pet dog to a resturant if it ment i could get my hands on it.
i mean ive only seen one nirvana ever.

[Pyrobunny]

i will say it would be hot to have a regain or let pets get aftermath on it tho
aftermath to pets would be cool on the other pet jobs also

[Razushu]

However, I strongly, strongly disagree with your stance of empy being "nothing more than a toy." The one thing nirvana doesn't do is give you unlimited MP, since it's really unlikely that you even need the full amount of perp cost that nirvana gives. Yes, nirvana will give you a better damage output overall, that's for sure. But, you can't Garland every WS because you'll need to use spirit taker, and that means not getting the aftermath all the time; and garland is pretty weak, weaker than Cataclysm even, though the def. down does give it an edge.

In the places where I most use the staff (e.g. abyssea soloing), accuracy is not an issue.

You don't need Hvergelmir for unlimited MP, just like you don't need Nirvana to cap -perp. Without either of these I have unlimited MP with just my prep/refresh set, Siphon and /SCH, and I've only run out of MP once since 80cap. That being said were I to be in possession of a Nirvana I could Garland every WS and still be fine for MP(as I am now). Getting -7 perp on a single piece wouldn't be nessecary for capping -perp, but it would be beneficial for capping it in the least amount of slots, for instance with my current set I get +3 MP back per tick, if I got Nirvana I could ditch my Caller's Pigaches +2 from my -perp set and full time the serpentes set giving me another +1MP per tick(not really needed, but sure would be nice).

[Alhanelem]

but it would be beneficial for capping it in the least amount of slotsThe thing is, you don't need to reduce the number of slots with perp. Perp minus (and/or refresh) exists on a lot of gear you would still have a use for anyway even if it didn't have the perp -.

Also, I don't normally use /sch for various reasons, including need of an ability to have status cures, switching back and forth to use aspir is a hassle and I don't really need it anyway, /SCH doesn't have cure IV and cure III is just totally inadequate these days.

Though one thing I hope people get out of this discussion is how little we need healing MP kits anymore :p

[Korpg]

Though one thing I hope people get out of this discussion is how little we need healing MP kits anymore :p

Most people already know that. Only Dallas thinks otherwise.

[Dallas]

is this seriously turning into hvergelmir vs nirvana?

nirvana shits all over hvergelmir in every way

Yeah, it's crap all right. That feces in your hand is "-perp" which is exactly what incompetent non-SMN think you need a whole lot of. Keep trying to make your Ukon WAR relevant here, you aren't good enough to call yourself an incompetent SMN yet.

[Korpg]

Most people already know that. Only Dallas thinks otherwise.


Yeah, it's crap all right. That feces in your hand is "-perp" which is exactly what incompetent non-SMN think you need a whole lot of. Keep trying to make your Ukon WAR relevant here, you aren't good enough to call yourself an incompetent SMN yet.

Called it!!

[Rearden]

Only because Kimara complained, so here goes.

Nirvana is a toy, Hvergelmir is a toy. I'll pose the same question I'd pose to any mage that wants to melee things.

In what end game content at 75cap or now at 90cap+ are you actually able to melee the HNM your group is targeting? News at 10: This isn't new information.

Without your aftermath, which can't be maintained in ANY group setting where Nirvana would actually be useful WITH your aftermath the Nirvana barely outperforms a Soulscourge and that's coming from TierII BP's with 1/5 merits vs 5/5. If it doesn't benefit SMN on the hardest of mobs or the gains are moderate at best, then it's really not an argument worth having.

I don't even need to mention Hvergelmir. These are solo toys that you do because you like the job at this point, nothing more. Which is better? Nirvana. Does anyone really care? Not really.

Sadly there's someone I dislike more than Analhelm and Korpg combined in this thread

[Kimara]

<3333 Thank you Rearden

[Korpg]

Only because Kimara complained, so here goes.

Nirvana is a toy, Hvergelmir is a toy. I'll pose the same question I'd pose to any mage that wants to melee things.

In what end game content at 75cap or now at 90cap+ are you actually able to melee the HNM your group is targeting? News at 10: This isn't new information.

Without your aftermath, which can't be maintained in ANY group setting where Nirvana would actually be useful WITH your aftermath the Nirvana barely outperforms a Soulscourge and that's coming from TierII BP's with 1/5 merits vs 5/5. If it doesn't benefit SMN on the hardest of mobs or the gains are moderate at best, then it's really not an argument worth having.

I don't even need to mention Hvergelmir. These are solo toys that you do because you like the job at this point, nothing more. Which is better? Nirvana. Does anyone really care? Not really.

Sadly there's someone I dislike more than Analhelm and Korpg combined in this thread

Only part about this whole post is, you are assuming that a person who wields a Nirvana has to melee.

Sorry to disappoint, but with Nirvana, you don't even have to melee, that is what makes that staff so great. Only way to actually use a Hvergelmir is to whack stuff with it, otherwise it is useless and a waste of an inventory spot.

Nirvana, you don't even need to whack anything for it to outperform any and all other staves for SMN, it is just that good.

[Rearden]

Where are your sources for this?

[Byrth]

Nirvana is a 23 MAB bonus over and INT path Pet MAB staff.

With 5 Pet MAB merits and MAB VI, Pets have 50 MAB base. Easy stuff (E. Pendant, AF3 waist, T. Cape) is another 5 MAB, for 55 base and 67 with the Pet: MAB avatar weapon.

1.9/1.67 = +14% damage on Magical BPs for using Nirvana over the Pet: MAB Magian staff.

So yeah, Nirvana really isn't game breaking. It gets worse the better your augmented Pet: Stat gear is.


Edit: Don't get me wrong, it's the best "pet enhancing" piece of gear by a mile (well, it's barely better than AF3+2 body and only works for half the BPs), but it's just not more amazing than, for instance, 2 Affinity.

[Rearden]

My source is math, parses, and experience.

And Byrth posting it for me

[Korpg]

My source is math, parses, and experience.

And Byrth posting it for me

You are showing sources for an opinion.....you know that, right?

[Byrth]

Honestly, the fact that Summoners slobber over Nirvana is just a tribute to the atrocious state of FFXI's pet enhancing gear in general.

[Kimble]

I dont think Math has an Opinion.

[Korpg]

Only part about this whole post is, you are assuming that a person who wields a Nirvana has to melee.

Sorry to disappoint, but with Nirvana, you don't even have to melee, that is what makes that staff so great. Only way to actually use a Hvergelmir is to whack stuff with it, otherwise it is useless and a waste of an inventory spot.

Nirvana, you don't even need to whack anything for it to outperform any and all other staves for SMN, it is just that good.

Seems like an opinion to me.

[Greatguardian]

Nirvana is a 23 MAB bonus over and INT path Pet MAB staff.

With 5 Pet MAB merits and MAB VI, Pets have 50 MAB base. Easy stuff (E. Pendant, AF3 waist, T. Cape) is another 5 MAB, for 55 base and 67 with the Pet: MAB avatar weapon.

1.9/1.67 = +14% damage on Magical BPs for using Nirvana over the Pet: MAB Magian staff.

So yeah, Nirvana really isn't game breaking. It gets worse the better your augmented Pet: Stat gear is.


Edit: Don't get me wrong, it's the best "pet enhancing" piece of gear by a mile (well, it's barely better than AF3+2 body and only works for half the BPs), but it's just not more amazing than, for instance, 2 Affinity.

^ Looks more like math plus some commentary than an "Unsourced Opinion".

[Dallas]

Hver aftermath can be maintained, Nirvana cannot. Nirvana loses, no matter how loud BG screams

[Rearden]

Poor child, you seem stressed.

[Byrth]

I mean, I don't think Korpg is wrong that it's better than Hverg or Claustrum. I also think that BLMs would be equally sploogy over Laev if Affinity staves didn't exist.

The problem is that Nirvana, which is (in my opinion) far and away more useful than Hverg or Claustrum, costs 300mil/months of effort and is a <14% damage increase for a mediocre Summoner, probably closer to a ~12% increase for a perfect summoner. When I look at Ryunohige, I feel bad about wasting 30k Alexandrite in a Terpsichore. When I look at Nirvana, I don't get the same feeling. It's like, "Great, your magical BPs do 14% more damage, which will be useful in the situations where magical BPs are better than physical and you happen to be on Summoner."

In my opinion, the real reason to get Nirvana isn't for the 14% damage boost to magic BPs. The real reason is because people will be so freaking in awe of your mythic's shininess that they'll never question "who is coming summoner?" again. Be thankful that most people can't figure out how minor of an upgrade it is.

As much as lollas has ripped on "BP and Release" summoner, realistically the only situations that call for summoner also call for BP and release. In a "BP and Release" situation, Nirvana is the best Magic BP weapon and the best (temporary) Perp staff. Hverg and Claustrum do nothing in those situations, and if MP is really that much of an issue for you guys in Voidwatch that you need to be dropping Dusty Wings and using Myrkr, you should really re-evaluate the way you spend MP. I just did the entire Sandy path with an alliance dualboxing the two black mages with temp items, and I didn't even Refresh myself or Convert more than half a dozen times the whole night. If I can spam proc spells as fast as possible and not run out of MP, I'd hope you can BP twice every 45 seconds without running out of MP (assuming you can find enough Wards that are actually worth using).

Hverg is an awesome tool for soloing DC mobs with your pet. It's a shitty tool for anything anyone else would want Summoner for. I can't really knock people for making one, as I seriously considered Aymur when I reactivated a year ago and got stricken with BST-fever. They're useful in approximately the same situations as each other, though Aymur does have a few extra bonuses.



Re: Lollas
Why do you think that Hverg aftermath can be maintained but Nirvana's can't? Assuming you make moderately efficient Perp -> Refresh trades, which are plentiful these days, couldn't you expect to gain several MP/tick from TPing in the staff? Then 60% OAT helps you build TP, so you can use Spirit Taker a few times between 300TP Garlands.

[Greatguardian]

I'm confused. Why in the world can't Nirvana Aftermath be maintained?

-Build TP to 300
-Get the only good aftermath
-Spam your real WS until it's time to build 300TP again
-Get 300 TP as Aftermath lv3 Wears, WS and get your aftermath back
-Go back to spamming whatever WS you want

Problem, broseph?

[Dallas]

GG its obvious you are confused. Let me break it down.

For SMN, MP> everything else. There are two ways to get it. Refresh above and beyond perp, or through melee WS.

For Hver, the WS triggers aftermath.

For Nirvana, it does not.

Nirvana, poorly made, depends on Spirit Taker which can miss, or it depends on wasting every other slot and subjob and atma maintaining mp. Take your flavor of fail: 0 haste, 0 aftermath, or 0 avatar. Also, start playing SMN so you know what mp recovery means.

[Korpg]

For Nirvana, it does not.

I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong in this case. Aftermath procs on Garland of Bliss, or do you mean that aftermath doesn't proc on Myrkr on Nirvana?


Nirvana, poorly made, depends on Spirit Taker which can miss, or it depends on wasting every other slot and subjob and atma maintaining mp. Take your flavor of fail: 0 haste, 0 aftermath, or 0 avatar. Also, start playing SMN so you know what mp recovery means.

Wait, you depend on atma as a melee than any other SMN. You have to have 3 regain atmas on, including the infamous slow+15% one, just to keep your MP up.

While every other SMN just needs Minkin, and that's it. 1 Refresh Atma > 3 Regain Atmas because you can put the other 2 Atmas to more damage capabilities. And outside Abyssea? Nirvana shines even better because you can have +7 mp per tick refresh with your avatar out, instead of having your avatars cost you 13 mp per tick just so you can have enough attack speed to wiff/whack a mob to get your 300% TP.

[Greatguardian]

GG its obvious you are confused. Let me break it down.

For SMN, MP> everything else. There are two ways to get it. Refresh above and beyond perp, or through melee WS.

For Hver, the WS triggers aftermath.

For Nirvana, it does not.

Nirvana, poorly made, depends on Spirit Taker which can miss, or it depends on wasting every other slot and subjob and atma maintaining mp. Take your flavor of fail: 0 haste, 0 aftermath, or 0 avatar. Also, start playing SMN so you know what mp recovery means.

You don't understand anything about Mythic weapons.

You can use Spirit Taker multiple times between Garlands without ever sacrificing a second of your Aftermath on Mythics.

The more you know.

[Korpg]

You don't understand anything about Mythic weapons.

You can use Spirit Taker multiple times between Garlands without ever sacrificing a second of your Aftermath on Mythics.

The more you know.

I think he means that Myrkr doesn't work on a Nirvana though, since that is his defense in whacking on a mob and feeding it TP.

[Kimble]

How would you even use Myrkr with Nirvana?

[Soulrunner]

I would thank all the people who took the exhaustive time to reply to my thread, as expected the melee summoners showed out in force, I see next to no responses from backline players the scholars and blm's of ffxi of which I am part of their number.

Let me make my position known Relic weapons are worthless except to gilsellers and Epeen worshippers I pity you, Mythics are the same and SE's refusal to fix the requirements for them is infantile. Any attempt to make money off someone building a weapon is disgusting and you should be caned and boiled alive.

As for my staff, it's in storage, I'll slowly build it as a showpiece nothing more just to piss the melee summoners off because I like the taste of your tears. I've switched to a Masamune, it took me 3 days to get through the lottery pops and 1 day for the vnm stage. Thank you.

I find it amusing that for all the hemming and hawing I saw from summoners not a single career summoner I know or have ever met would ever seriously consider using the staff, but I know plenty of blm's and sch's who dearly wish they could make use of it. Way to go SE!

This post edited because I don't feel like being hunted down and burned.

[Korpg]

How would you even use Myrkr with Nirvana?

That is the whole point. Dallas only thinks that one weaponskill for staff exists, because that is all he talks about. If you can't use Myrkr, there is no point in having the staff.

[Greatguardian]

I would thank all the people who took the exhaustive time to reply to my thread, as expected the worthless solo summoners dominated the discussion bragging about their pointless staff weaponskills, and micro achievements wearing cloth. I see next to no responses from backline players the scholars and blm's of ffxi of which I am part of their number. Let me make my position known Relic weapons are worthless except to gilsellers and Epeen worshippers I pity you, Mythics are the same and SE's refusal to fix the requirements for them is infantile. Any attempt to make money off someone building a weapon is disgusting and you should be caned and boiled alive. As for my weapon it's in storage, I'll slowly build it as a showpiece nothing more just to piss the melee summoners off because I like the taste of your tears. I've switched to a Masamune, it took me 3 days to get through the lottery pops and 1 day for the vnm stage. Thank you.

So much winning.

[Dallas]

Poor OP, thinks he's "Ukon war" cool now.

[Alhanelem]

-edit- uhm, nevermind. :cool:

Question though: Why should "melee summoners" (as you put it) be Q.Qing over you building some weapon and not using it? I don't give a rat's behind what weapon you build. If you want to waste your time on something you're not going to use... ummmm, okay?

I might be missing some sort of meme or punchline here as I have a tenancy not to grasp them, buuuut....

[Dallas]

You don't understand anything about Mythic weapons.

You can use Spirit Taker multiple times between Garlands without ever sacrificing a second of your Aftermath on Mythics.

The more you know.

You are the BG calculator zealot, put up or shut up. 900 mp every 3 minutes, never resummoning. Since you have NO margin for error, I fully expect you to assume no lost time to finding a second mob. It's OK, if you knew melee SMN at all, you'd remember who taught you.

[Greatguardian]

I don't understand what in the world you're saying.

Are you seriously intimating that a Nirvana SMN can't regain 900MP over 3 minutes through Spirit Taker? Is that what you want me to prove?

[Byrth]

Who gives a shit anyway?

At all the events Summoner is useful for, MP is not a limiting factor.

I'm pretty sure a Nirvana Summoner isn't going to give two shits if you can look cooler soloing EPs than they can. Also, for the record, -7 Perp * 60 ticks = 420 MP. Depending how efficiently you can turn Nirvana's Perp into Refresh through gear swaps, you're already much of the way to 900.

[Dallas]

I don't understand what in the world you're saying.

Are you seriously intimating that a Nirvana SMN can't regain 900MP over 3 minutes through Spirit Taker? Is that what you want me to prove?
As someone who actually used Spirit Taker for 5 years, I *know* it will take you at least 3 Spirit Takers to get 900MP. How do I know that? 1.0 multiplier @ 100% is as effective as it gets (Martial Staff is way better than Nirvana at MP recovery, but we're talking BG-level incompetence). Spirit Taker damage = normal hit + (INT + MND)/2. I was at 220ish (INT + MND) before the release of Myrkr, and the gear hasn't gotten any better. What does a normal hit do? 200-250 damage tops, with a better weapon than Nirvana. That means that Spirit Taker is 300-400 damage now.

So, to get 900 MP and keep aftermath, you need 3 Spirit Takers that HIT and 300% TP garland. You need 600% TP for Nirvana and only 300% TP for Hvergelmir. Possible? Only on your calculators. In the real game, even solo farming, the SMN is going to switch targets every 30 seconds.

Byrth, I know BG isn't accustomed to being schooled, but 900MP/3 minutes counts that perp. Go home.

[Soranika]

Melee SMNs aren't as common as what I feel the forums suggest. I lost count of how many things I could get kicked out of on SMN if I dared run up to hit something aside from being inside abyssea doing staff or club procs for red and/or blue. No SMN would also solo melee an actual NM that capable of cleaning an avatar's clock in seconds flat, which leads me to believe a lot of 'dedicated' melee SMN over-exaggerate or I just still suck in the melee department.

Still, Myrkr definitely beats Spirit Taker by a mile. It's hard to compare using Spirit Taker on Nirvana (which I don't know where this argument came from) because it's not obtainable to anyone not 100% dedicated to getting a mythic weapon. Those are VERY few in numbers these days. Perp cost argument to make Nirvana seem great is near moot because with now AF3, perp cost of an avatar is brought down to like 3-4mp per tick, not counting the slew of refresh gear now available.

Hvergelmir only benefits SMN that does extracurricular things of very little merit. Though by that, I mean doing things that other people don't do anymore because there's no "good reward" from it. There's nothing going for it *yet* for BLM or SCH. I'm still waiting to see what 95 emps offer. It's hard to deny too that SE got lazy making the emp weapons as if all jobs are capable of taking a role of DD, even down to giving them all the same aftermath. But I guess at the very least, it gives SMN (and I suppose BLM and SCH) a reason to carry TP wings.

[Alhanelem]

Hvergelmir only benefits SMN that does extracurricular things of very little merit.Who are you to judge the merit value of what other people do?


No SMN would also solo melee an actual NM that capable of cleaning an avatar's clock in seconds flatSuch people, as well as any intelligent reasonable person, doesn't do something when it's pretty obvious that it won't work for a given situation. However, in a group with other people, I still keep the weapon handy in abyssea and pop a TP wing to use Myrkr, since it's effectively like having another big Ether and I'd have no other use for the wing other than to proc- which, if someone happens to want it, I will find a normal mob nearby to get TP with, as anyone would.

Most people who have one of these weapons don't just run around and melee everything in sight. They still behave intelligently for the most part and know how to use all aspects of their job(s). They only use their weapon when there is benefit for them in doing so and the risk level is not too high.

[Neisan_Quetz]

In party situations you would want a Smn, you don't want them meleeing, therefore Hverg (as far as aftermath goes) is a boost to Smn in activities they aren't called to perform. Otherwise, it's negligible since you can generate enough mp without using myrkr + forms of regain.

And if all you need is the WS, you don't even need Hverg for that.

[Alhanelem]

And if all you need is the WS, you don't even need Hverg for that. Hvergelmir is actually easier to get than the WoE weapon, if your server is like mine where no one does it, and the weapon boosts the stat mod while the WoE weapon doesn't. If you have any intention of getting the WS, there's no reason not to get the empyrean over the WoE version.

[Dallas]

Hvergelmir only benefits SMN that does extracurricular things of very little merit. Though by that, I mean doing things that other people don't do anymore because there's no "good reward" from it.

Voidwatch has terrible rewards and is the only confirmed place where the mob isn't zerged or brewed.

[Neisan_Quetz]

SMN is useless inside Abyssea and superfluous for old content not zerged, and?

[Leonlionheart]

Voidwatch has terrible rewards and is the only confirmed place where the mob isn't zerged or brewed.

Just zerged all of windy yesterday w/ 2 Ukons and 1 Maschu+2

sup

[Alhanelem]

Zingggggg.