Hvergelmir WTF SE

[Soranika]

Who are you to judge the merit value of what other people do?
You missed the sentence that came directly after.

[Sparthos]

Hvergelmir is actually easier to get than the WoE weapon, if your server is like mine where no one does it, and the weapon boosts the stat mod while the WoE weapon doesn't. If you have any intention of getting the WS, there's no reason not to get the empyrean over the WoE version.

No it isn't.

Coin of Ruin are the most common drop and absolutely no one will ever roll for those coins. Hvergelmir requires a trip to Kukulkan, Sedna and Azdaja.

Coins you'll be uncontested on versus tedious trips to 3 Abyssean NMs for a similar reward (Mykkr). Yeah..

[Leonlionheart]

Hell, the trials for the NMs and VNMs are harder than getting coins of ruin.

It is literally the only coin people WANT you to leech

[Dallas]

Just zerged all of windy yesterday w/ 2 Ukons and 1 Maschu+2

sup
OMG, check it out everyone! LLH is talking about his Ukon again!

[Kimble]

OMG, check it out everyone! LLH is talking about his Ukon again!

Is this not the same as you always talking about your Hvergelmir?

[Dallas]

BTW anyone actually own the WOE staff and isn't too embarassed to admit it? 7 Hvergelmirs, 0 WOE so far.

[Dallas]

Is this not the same as you always talking about your Hvergelmir?

Read the thread title. I'm interesting.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Because this is the only thread you've brought it up in, what?

[Dallas]

Because this is the only thread you've brought it up in, what?

I sense Hvergelmir envy. Beg GG to fake some numbers to your Nirvana's honor!

[Korpg]

I sense Hvergelmir envy. Beg GG to fake some numbers to your Nirvana's honor!

Hey Dallas, I just got a Hvergelmir today. Guess what I'm going to use it for.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Why yes, I'm really jealous of a weapon whose WS deals 0 damage and is only usable by jobs that typically shouldn't be meleeing and/or using weapons that actually enhance their job. I'm just greeeen with envy.

GG isn't even on the same server as I am, not sure why you're bringing him up (unless you're part of the conspiracy?). Also math is clearly very hard.

[Dallas]

You read the thread, refuse to be competent enough to use the weapon mentioned, and yet still disgrace yourself by posting here. Just so we're clear, this whole Nirvana love is fake, right? You don't even have that gimp weapon, do you?

[Korpg]

You don't even have that gimp weapon, do you?

Actually, you are the one who doesn't realize what a gimp weapon is, when you are calling Nirvana gimp....

[Neisan_Quetz]

I love Nirvana about as much as I love Twashtar, which is, not much at all. Both are marginal and yet one is still useful in more situations than the other, guess what: it isn't the Empyrean one. Whether it's worth making is another issue.

You're still the only disgrace short of Rosina/Nature/etc.

[Dallas]

Of course, I knew you had no clue what you were talking about. No one completes Nirvana, thousands of WS to get to L90 then goes "Ukon WAR stupid" saying SMN isn't melee material. At least you've dedicated your entire FFXI career to being the worst of the worst.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Of course, I knew you had no clue what you were talking about. No one completes Nirvana, thousands of WS to get to L90 then goes "Ukon WAR stupid" saying SMN isn't melee material. At least you've dedicated your entire FFXI career to being the worst of the worst.

Fucking lol.

Okay, I think I'm done here. Thanks for the laughs, it's been real.



Real dumb.

[Dallas]

Always a pleasure sending KI trash running.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I take that back, I'll have to respond to that one.

I've never posted on Killing Ifrit. Never in my entire history of playing FF, have I even used Killing Ifrit, much less posted there even once.

Seriously, just shut the fuck up you have no clue what the fuck you're talking about.

[Alhanelem]

Just don't think the rest of who own one of these weapons is like Dallas. Most of us have reaosnable reasons for what we do. Dallas... i don't know what his purpose is, to say it politely.

[Meyi]

Dallas is the epic troll of trolls.

He makes the rest of the trolls here look semi competent.

All I can say is everyone should stop. If you think a Hvergelmir is worth it, then cool, go make one. If you don't think it's worth it, then cool, don't make one. If you think it's worth it and a friend or ls mate wants one, then cool, go help them make it. And naturally if you don't think it's worth it, then cool, don't help your friend or ls mate make one.

Sick of this pointless drivvel. It's a game, go have fun. If you think it's worthless then cool. If you think it's an awesome weapon then cool. At the end of the day it really doesn't matter because Summoners don't go to events with the premise of swinging their staff anyway, so whatever staff you want to play with in your free time is entirely up to you.

[Leonlionheart]

You read the thread, refuse to be competent enough to use the weapon mentioned, and yet still disgrace yourself by posting here. Just so we're clear, this whole Nirvana love is fake, right? You don't even have that gimp weapon, do you?

derrrrrrrrrrrrrrp "i think i'm kewl cuz i can hit stuff and make noise" derperpederp

[Dallas]

We've established that 6 proud Hver owners are in this thread, one ashamed Masa clone, one idiot Ukon clone, and one anti-Nirvana nobody.

You are outnumbered LLH, derrp yourself.

[Dallas]

Seriously, just shut the fuck up you have no clue what the fuck you're talking about.
What is your purpose here, in a thread where the only thing you have to offer is dropping f-bombs like you are 5? Just get whatever it is you are out of this thread and never return. You don't have this gear. You don't want this gear. You don't belong here. Shove off, and take your potty mouth back home to mommy.

[Alhanelem]

All I can say is everyone should stop. If you think a Hvergelmir is worth it, then cool, go make one. If you don't think it's worth it, then cool, don't make one. If you think it's worth it and a friend or ls mate wants one, then cool, go help them make it. And naturally if you don't think it's worth it, then cool, don't help your friend or ls mate make one.I agree with this wholeheartedly. If you want something, you should be able to get it, either on your own or with friends willing to help you, and no one should ridicule you for it. if you don't want it, then just don't get it, and leave the people who do get it alone.

[Rearden]

The only benefit of Hver is the +MP for PD.

[Dallas]

If "leave the people who do get it alone" was ever in the plan, how do you think your playing experience would have changed Al? You might have been a proud Claustrum owner today. Need to see the artist rendering again?

They aren't here to congratulate you on your weapon. They are here to punish you for going against their "BG decree."

[Kimble]

I don't think anyone really cares if you make the weapon. I personally don't. But making false statements and passing off something as a lie, i dont really agree with.

[Rearden]

Yeah, no one is attacking Hver, we're just making fun of you so you can make increasingly more insane statements and in turn have you discredit yourself. It's quite easy.

[Dallas]

I don't think anyone really cares if you make the weapon. I personally don't. But making false statements and passing off something as a lie, i dont really agree with.

Ahh, you see, I don't have that problem. Since I have been meleeing as SMN since 2006, I know which of you are lying and which are just stupid. I don't care who agrees with me, mainly because the only "alternative" playstyle proposed is "play WAR instead." Everything else is unrevokably weaker.

Rearden, if you want anyone to notice you, read more. As I just stated, I know which bucket you are in. They *are* attacking the weapon. They have to, because it clearly is the best choice.

[Rearden]

Sounds like you should just play WAR instead

[Dallas]

Rearden, just to show you I know what bucket you are in, here's your profile:

http://www.bluegartr.com/members/34661-Churchill

[Rearden]

That's some great detective work

[Dallas]

Knowing you are from BG is enough to drop kick you out of melee SMN discussion.

[Kimble]

Honestly, IDC what you do because personally, if I knew who you were and were on my server, id just avoid doing anything with you.

But I don't really take kindly to you feeding others misinformation for them to go and then make a weapon, get it, and realize its no wear NEAR as good as you are trying to make it sound like.

[Rearden]

Honestly, IDC what you do because personally, if I knew who you were and were on my server, id just avoid doing anything with you.

But I don't really take kindly to you feeding others misinformation for them to go and then make a weapon, get it, and realize its no wear NEAR as good as you are trying to make it sound like.

Don't worry about it, different servers.

http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Bismarck/Elementa

[Modoru]

Oh man.

"Everyone's wrong for not having my opinion and are therefore subject to various curse words!"

Is this the gist of what I'm reading on this thread? Because it really does seem like it.

[Dallas]

Honestly, IDC what you do because personally, if I knew who you were and were on my server, id just avoid doing anything with you.

But I don't really take kindly to you feeding others misinformation for them to go and then make a weapon, get it, and realize its no wear NEAR as good as you are trying to make it sound like.

Oooh, misinformation. I love misinformation. What part of "best damage a SMN can deal" pisses you off?

[Dallas]

Oh man.

"Everyone's wrong for not having my opinion and are therefore subject to various curse words!"

Is this the gist of what I'm reading on this thread? Because it really does seem like it.

Yes. Same as last time.

[Leonlionheart]

Again, Dallas showing he doesn't actually play SMN

[Alhanelem]

What a surprise, this thread is going nowhere fast. At least it can't really be blamed on me this time.

[Dallas]

Again, Dallas showing he doesn't actually play SMN

During three fights that drop nothing of any use to anyone? No, they have you for those worthless events.

Al, it's the same people, same discussion as last time. When I choose to abandon it, it will die again.

[Alhanelem]

Al, it's the same people, same discussion as last time. When I choose to abandon it, it will die again. I'm pretty sure that's what people want, deep down in their hearts, even if they don't show it.

[Dallas]

And none of them have any vested interest in playing SMN at its limits. Not my problem. Why you think it is your problem is anyone's guess.

[Rearden]

I think he just doesn't like you

[Alhanelem]

And none of them have any vested interest in playing SMN at its limits. Not my problem. Why you think it is your problem is anyone's guess.
its my/our problem because your continuation of threads like this serves no purpose. You're trying to convince people of something they have made up their minds on. It's a waste of your time and a waste of everyone else's. The only reason they allow it to continue is because they enjoy watching you post things that they think make you look... bad, for lack of a forum-appropriate term.

[Korpg]

Besides, Dallas doesn't realize that I have a Hvergelmir now.

I just use it as a town piece. It is still useless inside and outside of Abyssea.

[Qeepel]

Hello everyone,

I'd like to remind everyone to please refrain from making inflammatory comments towards others and off topic discussions. Such language and actions are considered a violation of the forum guidelines, and can result in the termination of your account.

Also, remember that this is a forum to talk about FFXI. Discussion regarding other forums or forum members is considered off topic and a violation. We ask that you please simply report any violations, rather than feel the need to defend yourself or retort with an inflammatory comment. As you can see it can quickly derail a topic and create several unnecessary arguments and comments.

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[Leonlionheart]

I find that Hvergelmir isn't useless on the SMNs I see use it...

Do they ever engage in the actual fight? No, they're not stupid.

They TP pre fight, burn through their MP, pop myrkr, and then switch staves/use meds.

I mean if you're going to hit something, why bring a stick to an axe fight

[Soranika]

It does come down to how you use it. With Hvergelmir 85, I've found myself doing near equal damage with avatar normal attacks, but it's still the best ideal to let the avatars deal a bit of damage or open with a blood pact before going in. Basically sticking with the concept of being melee smn still.

It is a great weapon for campaign though. I've always enjoyed being on smn more doing those but now more than ever. In older endgame content, it's is possible for smn to build TP through meleeing regularly, like in Dynamis... though I wouldn't suggest it on mega and arch bosses.

[Dallas]

Sora, LLH said no, so stop it! Why can't we all just do half damage and get along?

[Alhanelem]

I find that Hvergelmir isn't useless on the SMNs I see use it...

Do they ever engage in the actual fight? No, they're not stupid.

They TP pre fight, burn through their MP, pop myrkr, and then switch staves/use meds.

I mean if you're going to hit something, why bring a stick to an axe fight
But it's a much harder stick!

[Leonlionheart]

lol still as noob as ever Dallas

[Dallas]

You got me, I have NEVER even thought about wielding axe on SMN.

[scaevola]

The only benefit of Hver is the +MP for PD.

i see what you did there

[Dallas]

Hey, it is more mp than Ukon, so cut our BG SMN some slack.

[Soranika]

You got me, I have NEVER even thought about wielding axe on SMN.
inb4 rune chopper

[Dallas]

I know of it, but noob me didn't actually think to use it.

[Zemarin]

Embrava + Mythic = GG

[Malamasala]

With Hvergelmir 85, I've found myself doing near equal damage with avatar normal attacks

A melee SMN usually out-damage their own avatars when it comes to normal attacks. At least I've always done it with my crappy staffs in the past. Depends on target of course, I know on cerberus at 75 my avatars hit harder than DRKs so I'd assume if I ever had meleed cerberus with staff, I'd have done pitiful damage.

[Byrth]

A melee SMN usually out-damage their own avatars when it comes to normal attacks. At least I've always done it with my crappy staffs in the past. Depends on target of course, I know on cerberus at 75 my avatars hit harder than DRKs so I'd assume if I ever had meleed cerberus with staff, I'd have done pitiful damage.

Avatars, pets, and monsters don't have any level correction in their pDIF for melee attacks. That's why low level monsters (like level 75 stuff) still hit you so hard without any buffs. Level 75 players fighting level 95 monsters (like Jorm) did comparatively crap damage even with Minuets. They sure weren't meleeing for 160 damage like the Nightmare monsters fighting me. That's also why Avatars hit harder than DRKs on Cerberus at 75.

Avatar BPs may suffer from level correction, though it's less clear. All we really know is that Avatar BP pDIF is different than Avatar melee pDIF. You've seen Kegsay's data, which is really all I'm basing this off of anyway.

[Dallas]

Kegsay's work was far from complete, and my data put a hole in it. Avatars appear to have a damage bonus that extends to weaker mobs as well as stronger ones.

[Byrth]

A few weeks ago I reviewed the past 2 years of Alla SMN forum research-posts and found nothing inconsistent with Kegsay's posts on Avatar pDIF. When I went to test it myself, all that I found is that Avatars get crit attack bonus and BPs don't follow the same pDIF as melee.

[Dallas]

My work was on Wiki, I specifically tested on EP - DC mobs to eliminate level correction. It is far more likely that avatars have low attack plus 50% damage bonus than it is that avatars have naturally high attack. The "level" slope is too steep.

[Alerith]

Shikikoyo.

I always thought this ability didn't really get the respect it deserves, considering it's applications.

If MP becomes a problem, a SAM can use this underrated ability to give any mage the necessary TP to recover a respectable amount with Myrkr and to remove some no good status effects. And it doesn't use an item or require you to change your Atmas for melee/accuracy. Just a willing SAM with 200%-300% TP.

Strategy and team work. Problem solved.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Sam has better things to do than give tp to a Smn, mainly keep weaponskilling (in Fudo's case, more damage/ODD if MAsamune). If they aren't weaponskilling, someone is probably on the wrong job.

[Dallas]

Yes, samurai have better things to do, like beg for a party slot. Haven't seen a SAM in ages...

[Economizer]

Sam has better things to do than give tp to a Smn

But it isn't for TP, it is for the MP. A Summoner having 800-1000 MP is generally better then a Samurai having 100-200 TP, unless your goal is to lots of damage RIGHT NOW.

Same for a Black Mage or Scholar. Shoot, with a Scholar you can now return the TP using Embrava, so even in a zerg it could be a good idea.

Creative problem solving can make for good gameplay.

[Raksha]

My work was on Wiki, I specifically tested on EP - DC mobs to eliminate level correction. It is far more likely that avatars have low attack plus 50% damage bonus than it is that avatars have naturally high attack. The "level" slope is too steep.


http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/103597-Random-Facts-Thread?p=4792772&viewfull=1#post4792772

The 2 links in that post point to testing.

[Soranika]

I have a friend who played on SAM when we went to go do WoE. Better believe giving me TP when he could aided him in ability to survive. Just saying.

[Razushu]

Yes, samurai have better things to do, like beg for a party slot. Haven't seen a SAM in ages...

tend to see them alot more than melee SMNs......

[Razushu]

But it isn't for TP, it is for the MP. A Summoner having 800-1000 MP is generally better then a Samurai having 100-200 TP, unless your goal is to lots of damage RIGHT NOW.

Same for a Black Mage or Scholar. Shoot, with a Scholar you can now return the TP using Embrava, so even in a zerg it could be a good idea.

Creative problem solving can make for good gameplay.

The Summoner shouldn't need that TP to keep their MP up, so in most cases a SAM with 100-200%TP is infinitely more useful than a SMN being given the same. At this stage in the game any decently geared SMN should be almost autonomous in a party, definitely to the point where we don't need a SAM wasting TP to give them TP so they can regain MP they wouldn't have lost if properly geared.

[Alhanelem]

The Summoner shouldn't need that TP to keep their MP up, so in most cases a SAM with 100-200%TP is infinitely more useful than a SMN being given the sameI disagree with that statement. Several hundred MP gained by a summoner will produce more total damage than that 100-200 TP used by the SAM. Not in the same amount of time, no, but over the course of any fight of significant length. It's not like the summoner would be constantly draining that SAM's TP, either. That several hundred MP will last for several minutes, in which time the SAM will have collected 100 TP and used a weapon skill several times over. It is of very little detriment to the SAM to do this- I actually see it as quite powerful- It's almost like a strong Devotion with a shorter recast.

I even say all this totally ignoring the fact that Myrkr doesn't just give you MP, it can also remove multiple status effects at once (Sadly, not doom it seems :p), including the silence that may be preventing you from casting.

[Alerith]

I disagree with that statement. Several hundred MP gained by a summoner will produce more total damage than that 100-200 TP used by the SAM. Not in the same amount of time, no, but over the course of any fight of significant length. It's not like the summoner would be constantly draining that SAM's TP, either. That several hundred MP will last for several minutes, in which time the SAM will have collected 100 TP and used a weapon skill several times over. It is of very little detriment to the SAM to do this- I actually see it as quite powerful- It's almost like a strong Devotion with a shorter recast.

I even say all this totally ignoring the fact that Myrkr doesn't just give you MP, it can also remove multiple status effects at once (Sadly, not doom it seems :p), including the silence that may be preventing you from casting.

Exactly. There are situations where even a SMN will run low on MP. When that time comes, a SAM passing along 100 TP is not going to put any form of strain on the SAM. The SAM will still have 100 TP to WS and the mage will now have the means of restoring their MP as well as erasing three status ailments that may be causing a problem.

If the job ability read:

Shikikoyo - Restores a Mage party member's MP and removes 3 status ailments from them.

I'd say that's a sweet deal for any group.

[Neisan_Quetz]

There are mages who don't carry echo drops, what?

[Soranika]

Except Myrkr is self cast only though. Status removal doesn't work for the whole party. And mages that don't carry echo drops... I make a bad habit of forgetting to replenish echo drops when I'm out and about.

Already been proven that I'm an idiot in some regards so yeah.

[Razushu]

I disagree with that statement. Several hundred MP gained by a summoner will produce more total damage than that 100-200 TP used by the SAM. Not in the same amount of time, no, but over the course of any fight of significant length. It's not like the summoner would be constantly draining that SAM's TP, either. That several hundred MP will last for several minutes, in which time the SAM will have collected 100 TP and used a weapon skill several times over. It is of very little detriment to the SAM to do this- I actually see it as quite powerful- It's almost like a strong Devotion with a shorter recast.

I even say all this totally ignoring the fact that Myrkr doesn't just give you MP, it can also remove multiple status effects at once (Sadly, not doom it seems :p), including the silence that may be preventing you from casting.

Disagreeing doesn't alter the fact that "The Summoner shouldn't need that TP to keep their MP up". Any halfway decent set will give free Avatars unconditionally, and if you've spent more than a week gearing your SMN you should be getting a reasonable number refresh back with them out. This is all of course before considering elemental siphon and any subjob MP management abilities, there's absolutely no reason a SMN should be in need of several hundred MP at any time. Also as was mentioned in the post above I carry echos full time.

I'm not attacking the playstyle or the weapon here, don't wanna start that argument again, just saying that SMN needs to go out of it's way to run out of MP nowadays, so there should never be a need for you to ask a SAM if they have shikikoyo merited before a fight because you may need the MP halfway through a battle.

[Alerith]

The Summoner shouldn't need that TP to keep their MP up"

What of the BLM that could benefit from MP restoration? They would only have to equip the staff, get the TP via Shikikoyo, use the WS, then go back to nuking sticks.

Not to mention that Silence isn't the only status ailment to ever plague a mage. Using the WS is a one hit wonder again paralyze since weaponskills can't be paralyzed. Max MP down is another as well as Gravity. If you were inflicted with these all at once, you could easily wipe them all with one WS and not have to even get within melee distance.

[Soranika]

Doesn't really work that way for BLM or SCH. Regardless of Solo'ing or in a party, BLM and SCH have better staves to be swapping in and out to increase the effectiveness of their spells than keep Hvergelmir equipped or bother with it's weapon skill. Especially tying up a SAM on the fly for it. Using it specifically to remove status effects are negligible too. That's erase is for. I know BLM don't natively have it but most are SCH or WHM for it. Or even RDM to mitigate MP usuage.

A smart nuker knows when to stop casting to keep from getting hate and move out the way when that max HP/MP down starts in WoE.

[Razushu]

What of the BLM that could benefit from MP restoration? They would only have to equip the staff, get the TP via Shikikoyo, use the WS, then go back to nuking sticks.

Not to mention that Silence isn't the only status ailment to ever plague a mage. Using the WS is a one hit wonder again paralyze since weaponskills can't be paralyzed. Max MP down is another as well as Gravity. If you were inflicted with these all at once, you could easily wipe them all with one WS and not have to even get within melee distance.

I'm not a BLM so I can't speak for how well they manage MP.

If I'm fighting something that nasty I'll be staying well out of range of those abilities just in case. Your solution is predicated on the assumption your just sitting round in the empyrean at 100%+TP, waiting for this scenario, which is probably not going to be the case. Seeing as if you were a BLM you'd be gimping your nukes, and if you were a SMN you'd be bleeding MP(unless you had a good perp set - the staff), while hurting the damage from your BPs(esp. magical ones) also, by locking in a staff that does nothing for them.

[Dallas]

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/103597-Random-Facts-Thread?p=4792772&viewfull=1#post4792772

The 2 links in that post point to testing.

I know Kegsay's work well. I just disagreed with him. There's far too much evidence that avatars are high damage, low attack instead of high attack, low damage. The latter would hit like a normal melee against most mobs, but everyone and their cat knows an avatar hits like a BLM *except* against high def mobs [when it hits like a gimp DRK].

Whatever avatar stats are @95, they are lower than Hver SMN. Carbuncle @75 was weaker than a SMN using Martial Staff. That's why I believe he was always wrong on at least one major assumption.

Source: http://kegsay.livejournal.com/

http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=19875

Yah, the dates are right. He went a different path after meeting me.

[Raksha]

I know Kegsay's work well. I just disagreed with him. There's far too much evidence that avatars are high damage, low attack instead of high attack, low damage. The latter would hit like a normal melee against most mobs, but everyone and their cat knows an avatar hits like a BLM *except* against high def mobs [when it hits like a gimp DRK].

Whatever avatar stats are @95, they are lower than Hver SMN. Carbuncle @75 was weaker than a SMN using Martial Staff. That's why I believe he was always wrong on at least one major assumption.

Source: http://kegsay.livejournal.com/

http://forums.ffxiclopedia.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=19875

Yah, the dates are right. He went a different path after meeting me.


EDIT: NVM found it.

[Byrth]

If you've already looked at kegsay's data and still believe your own theory then I don't know how to explain it to you.

Here is an attempt:
* Kegsay added Strength to his avatar using Ecliptic Growl at different moon phases. (http://kegsay.livejournal.com/5510.html) (top)
* He saw that minimum damage increased after a certain number of STR, and then again after about 4 more STR past that. (there is some weirdness with his data because he was fighting two types of monster and they have different VIT)
* Because he saw damage increase like this, he could determine that +1 base damage increased the minimum damage by 4. Therefore, pDIF = 4 at capped cRatio.
* You can take the 4 and divide it by whatever you want, then call it a "___ pDIF with an x% damage bonus", but it's the same as just calling it 4 to start with. It's already known that Monster and Player pDIF equations are different somehow, and that avatars and pets follow the monster equations, so there's no real need to arbitrarily introduce a constant.

[Dallas]

Here's how I explain it to you, Byrth:
"Celestial Avatars have 504 attack at Level 75. Carbuncle has more. Fenrir even more.
I estimate that Fenrir has around 570 attack."

That's L75 stats. At L95, a melee SMN with 430 attack deals more damage hit-for-hit than all avatars. Avatars are weaker than all SMN who wield the weapon this thread is about. Whatever this "kegsay attack" stat represents, it doesn't bear any resemblance to "attack."

Batman SMN like yourself are free to invent any numbers you like. I still don't see anyone but melee SMN arguing for avatar melee.

[Byrth]

I think you maybe just don't understand what pDIF means. pDIF is the function that relates base damage to the observed damage. It depends on the attacker's attack, the defender's defense, and (for players) the difference in level between the two characters.

Saying, "That attack is too high, because the pDIF equation looks too steep" is stupid, because the pDIF equation is whatever the pDIF equation is. We know almost nothing about the Avatar/monster pDIF equation, except that it's obviously different from the player pDIF equation.

Kegsay's method for determining avatar attack was theoretically sound, but he was limited by the amount of Avatar Attack+ equipment available. It would be more accurate if we went to Abyssea and had the avatar melee one type of EM monster, using Atma to boost its Attack between samples. That would give us several well defined points.

Here is what you're proposing: Avatar Damage range = Avatar_pDIF(Attack, Defense)*Base Damage*1.5
Here is what I'm proposing: Avatar Damage range = Avatar_pDIF(Attack, Defense)*Base Damage

So you're adding an unnecessary constant that there's no evidence for. Our knowledge of base damage is sound (per the fSTR tests), and any constant like what you're proposing could undetectably be absorbed into Avatar_pDIF.

[Raksha]

Here's how I explain it to you, Byrth:
"Celestial Avatars have 504 attack at Level 75. Carbuncle has more. Fenrir even more.
I estimate that Fenrir has around 570 attack."

That's L75 stats. At L95, a melee SMN with 430 attack deals more damage hit-for-hit than all avatars. Avatars are weaker than all SMN who wield the weapon this thread is about. Whatever this "kegsay attack" stat represents, it doesn't bear any resemblance to "attack."

Batman SMN like yourself are free to invent any numbers you like. I still don't see anyone but melee SMN arguing for avatar melee.


I'm guessing that a lvl 90 SMN hits harder than its avatar because you're using a D98 weapon and (in abyssea) have capped (or close) fstr. But I dont really know much about the melee dmg formula.

[Soranika]

If in side abyssea, then of course SMN would hit harder than their avatars with Hvergelmir or any physical staff with high damage because avatars don't benefit from crour buffs to balance their physical attack with those in abyssea. When I mentioned doing the near same damage on average with avatars with it, it was outside of abyssea at Cape Terrigan on EP and DC mobs. wasn't a thorough test but yeah. Same when I'm building TP in other areas like Sea or in aht urghan areas. If he thought I meant in abyssea when I made my statement of how much damage I was dealing in comparison with avatars, sorry for not being clear on that.

It's really hard to determine the formula of avatar attack in abyssea because of this because without using atma, avatars most notably weaker.

[Raksha]

On ep/dc mobs you'd have more or less the same situation. D98 weapon compared to whatever your avatars base D is (i'm guessing its not D98)

[Alhanelem]

There are mages who don't carry echo drops, what?
The mages who need to use fewer echo drops, what?

It's just a perk, not an excuse to not carry echo drops.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you're seriously going to try advocating myrkr to remove silence when you can use an echo/remedy, achieve same result, and remove virtually the same ailments in the case of remedy bar bad luck on para then...

Don't use inventory/gil as an excuse either, they are not expensive and I know for a fact your inventory isn't capped on Smn.

[Alhanelem]

It's just a perk, not an excuse to not carry echo drops. Besides, as I said, Myrkr can remove multiple status effects- If you happen to be afflicted with anything and need the MP at the same time, Myrkr simply does that much more. It's an additional benefit. Icing on the cake.

/imitates Cait Sith

Point is, it's a functional, useful weapon skill, pretty much more so than any other weapon skill available to a mage.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I already mentioned remedies. I'm not denying it is useful, but it is not as big of an increase (in terms of status removal bar paralyze) as you're making it out to be.

Obv it comes out ahead in MP regeneration ... for a weaponskill.

[Alhanelem]

It comes out ahead of several other forms of MP recovery, not that you can't also use those as well. It is a handy tool with good utility. If it's within your means to get it and use it, there's no reason not to have it, other than to protest the fact that it doesn't have the stats you personally want from it.

Myrkr removes more status effects than remedies, so I don't really care that you already mentioned remedies.

You say I'm making it out to be better than it is, but you're making it out to be not as good as it is.

[Dallas]

On ep/dc mobs you'd have more or less the same situation. D98 weapon compared to whatever your avatars base D is (i'm guessing its not D98)

Every SMN who took the time to level to 250 staff skill was doing more damage than Carby, against any mob, with a 56 damage staff. This is common knowledge to anyone outside of Bat Galka headquarters.

Since you are making the failflakes argument that attack doesn't matter against EP/DC, tell me where 328 attack 56 damage (melee SMN) stands against 231 defense, then tell me where 500+ "kegsay attack", 50 "kegsay damage" stands. All of these numbers have been available for over a year.

Common knowledge is the correct answer. You can't magically make Carby not suck more than melee SMN.

[Raksha]

Every SMN who took the time to level to 250 staff skill was doing more damage than Carby, against any mob, with a 56 damage staff. This is common knowledge to anyone outside of Bat Galka headquarters.

Since you are making the failflakes argument that attack doesn't matter against EP/DC, tell me where 328 attack 56 damage (melee SMN) stands against 231 defense, then tell me where 500+ "kegsay attack", 50 "kegsay damage" stands. All of these numbers have been available for over a year.

Common knowledge is the correct answer. You can't magically make Carby not suck more than melee SMN.

/shrug like i said I dont know anything about the melee dmg forumla other than looking at it and doing basic math.

Looking at your ffxiclopedia forum post I see every avatar except carbuncle outdmging you (I only read the first post, don't care that much about this to dig any deeper). What was the sample size for that carbuncle data? I notice you only have data for the lvl 63 colibris.

[Dallas]

There's a funny little thing called day-of-the-week. Pick the wrong day, and all mobs are more likely to be their maximum level. As no person serious about avatar damage ever picks Carby, it didn't seem to make sense to complete the data. Some guy defending bad numbers from Kegsay 2 years later CERTAINLY isn't a good reason.

[Raksha]

There's a funny little thing called day-of-the-week. Pick the wrong day, and all mobs are more likely to be their maximum level. As no person serious about avatar damage ever picks Carby, it didn't seem to make sense to complete the data. Some guy defending bad numbers from Kegsay 2 years later CERTAINLY isn't a good reason.

About the only thing I give a shit less about than hvergelmir is avatar stats. So congratulations you figured out avatar stats. You win.

[Dallas]

Yeah, that's about par for every anti-DD poster that arrives.

[Byrth]

I compared +40 STR to +20 Attack in Abyssea, and +40 STR did 18% more damage. Avatars have low base damage and high pDIF.

Used RR/MM as my base to keep a pretty even split of crit/noncrits.

No third Atma: 45~75 normal hit, 120~173 Crit
Entwined Serpents: 47~74 normal hit, 123~176 Crit (+20 Attack)
Harvester: 56~87 normal hit, 137~200 Crit (+40 STR)

If +40 STR (+10 base damage) gets a ~10~20% increase, then we have approximately 50~70 base damage.

Avatar: Garuda
Target: EM Amuckatrice in Abyssea - Attohwa

[Dallas]

So, you missed Kegsay's comment how STR improves base damage? 20 attack < 20 attack + base damage. Nice one, Sherlock.

[Winrie]

Holy crap close this thread already

[Byrth]

So, you missed Kegsay's comment how STR improves base damage? 20 attack < 20 attack + base damage. Nice one, Sherlock.

The three cases were:
+0 Attack
+20 Attack
+40 STR (and thus +20 Attack)

I compared +40 STR (and thus +20 Attack) to +20 Attack. The avatar shows a minor (almost undetectable) improvement when you go from +0 attack to +20 Attack, and a major improvement when you add +40 STR (base damage). This shows that Avatars have high attack and low base damage.

I would bet that you can stack all the Attack atma at the same time and not get the same benefit that I showed from +40 STR.

[Alhanelem]

The three cases were:
+0 Attack
+20 Attack
+40 STR (and thus +20 Attack)

I compared +40 STR (and thus +20 Attack) to +20 Attack. The avatar shows a minor (almost undetectable) improvement when you go from +0 attack to +20 Attack, and a major improvement when you add +40 STR (base damage). This shows that Avatars have high attack and low base damage.

I would bet that you can stack all the Attack atma at the same time and not get the same benefit that I showed from +40 STR.I've seen this myself from using various atma combinations, so as far as I can tell, it's a reasonable assessment of avatar's damage characteristics.

[Dallas]

This shows that Avatars have high attack and low base damage.

Your assumption that the formula is right does not prove that the formula is right. It only shows that you know how to plug numbers into a wrong formula.

[Alhanelem]

Your assumption that the formula is right does not prove that the formula is right. It only shows that you know how to plug numbers into a wrong formula.
Prove that it's wrong then. You'd be correct in stating that just because numbers happen to fit a forumla does not guarantee that the formula is accurate. That being said, just calling something wrong without backing it up doesn't discount a reasonable argument.

Of course,t hat's how you seem to approach everything here. You make controversial statements, then when people come and challenge it, you don't back it up. You just call them wrong and expect that to counter everything.

Please collect a large sample of data from a controlled test yourself that demonstrates some other formula is more accurate, or link to someone elses good faith efort to do the same instead of just declaring stuff to be wrong. Then people might be more willing to take you the least bit seriously.

[Byrth]

Your assumption that the formula is right does not prove that the formula is right. It only shows that you know how to plug numbers into a wrong formula.

We know that strength adds base damage and attack. We don't technically know the ratio. STR:ATK could be anything from 1:1 to 2:1, and STR:BD could be anything from 2:1 to 5:1. Kegsay's test indicated 5STR:1BD, but he tested on two monster populations that had different VITs so he could have missed fSTR going up one. 4STR:1BD is most probable in my opinion.

Still, if you compare the +20 Attack case to the +0 Attack case, you see a modest to unobservable difference. That in itself is no big news. Some pDIF equations have plateaus, so perhaps I was in a plateau. Adding STR, on the other hand, resulted in a very large change. If we know that attack results in a modest change, then we can conclude that the added base damage from STR caused the majority of the effect.

Now, if you look at the link to Kegsay's Fenrir testing that I linked earlier, you'll find the proof that the ratio of STR to Base damage is fairly high. 4 or 5 STR for 1 base damage. So I'm not adding a large amount of base damage when I stack on 40 STR. If a modest increase in base damage results in a sizable increase in damage dealt, then original base damage must have been small.

I don't have a parser at the moment, so everything was done with by going through my chat log and looking for higher highs and lower lows after every Cockatrice. I don't intend to continue this until I have a better method, because it's a pain and it isn't really pressing.

[Soranika]

Well in other news that no one has seem to have reported on. Hvergelmir isn't a tool meant solely for being melee because of it's high damage. It is a staff for mages, thinking about it from a melee stand point strickly is pretty much the wrong way to go it. For example, SMN that own it and use it in battle to melee during campaign battles, but there's still no room for SCH or BLM to go in and fight on the front lines.

However SE has pushing voidwatch as the next endgame activity pretty hard. Since people here seem to show some disdain for voidwatch, no one has seemed to want to mention that you get temp items when you start and every time you proc. Of these items is a Dusty Wing. Instant 300% useless to most mages outside of BLU, but a SMN, BLM, or SCH with Hvergelmir can pop these quickly for MP restoration when say sublimation is charging/down or if you have an avatar out attempting to proc and don't want to waste time using elemental siphon or already did so. It's highly doubtful that each of these jobs are CONSTANTLY doing something where they can't spare the minute it takes to use this. Plus it removes the risk of having to engage the enemy at close range for spirit taker. And yes, ailment removal is a nice perk to it.

It's not a full time staff, but it has it's uses and after using in various endgame situations, it is pretty invaluable for BLM and SCH to have, however SMN do tend to see the most benefit from this. It increases MP longevity.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Why wouldn't a Sch in a campaign battle melee with hverg? They're probably the second best job to do so with it since they can self skillchain.

MP longevity is not the problem for all 3 jobs with or without the staff.

[Alhanelem]

Why wouldn't a Sch in a campaign battle melee with hverg? They're probably the second best job to do so with it since they can self skillchain.Oh yeah I forgot, summoner can't self skillchai- oh wait, yes they can. SMN just doesn't skillchain much because that means using either a worse blood pact than normal or a worse weaponskill than normal. It's different when using an NPC fellow though. I like chaining with the NPC and using a magic pact to magic burst. Sadly, NPCs won't participate in campaign.

[Byrth]

Dusky Wing -> WS is fine and good, but I dualbox Black Mages during Voidwatch, spam proc spells, and never run out of MP. As long as your group procs at a decent clip, you shouldn't be reduced to using wings.

You start with 2 Lucid Ether IIs (1000 MP) and each get 2 Mana Powders (25% MP restored per use and 2 per person, so you're looking at 3 MP bars per temp-restoring weakness stagger if you have a 6 man party). Toss in Aspir (or Elemental Siphon) and Convert, and I'm wondering why anyone ever brings up Dusty Wings.

[Soranika]

>.<
I concede. I haven't gotten far in voidwatch so I didn't know the number and type of temp items you get increase. Regardless though, I found use for my hvergelmir since I already own one. I see no reason to ignore it.

[Dallas]

Prove that it's wrong then.

You were there when I did YEARS AGO and I resolved the issue long before Kegsay came along. I don't need to do it again, because I'm the only one here who ever did. It is absolute BG ignorance of SMN to show up defending a formula that makes an AVATAR as strong (not fast, just strong) as a well geared WARRIOR.

I know what Kegsay's fault was, and I've said here, in this thread, to you. The slope is WRONG. Go ahead, take the Bat Galkan single-point approach to back into avatar attack @95. Might want to bring that WAR in here for lulz.

[Kimble]

All I read is someone talking out of their rear.

[Dallas]

All I read is someone talking out of their rear.

If you want to be part of the ignorant Bat Galkan masses that believes avatars are as strong as warriors, no one is stopping you.

[Byrth]

What are you talking about? Avatars have low base damage against monsters of similar level (because fSTR -> 0), and fairly high attack. They also likely obey a different pDIF function than melees.

To put it in "melee terms", they're swinging a ~D45 weapon with fairly high delay, fairly high attack, and 0% DA/TA/etc. That's like a level 95 PLD gearing entirely for Attack and using Gluttony Sword. It's freaking laughable. The formulas don't predict it would compare to a Warrior in the least.

Also, why do you keep going on about "oh man, the slope is too steep!!!"? Are you an idiot? You're suggesting "the slope is too steep, so we should lower it and the multiply by a scalar." That's the same thing as having a higher slope to start with.

[Lambtor]

i always expected that a mage relic or empyrean or whatever weapon would give the wielder access to a spell you'd never get to use otherwise. like ultima or meteor or something. i think that'd fix the stupidness of mage staves, but who knows if it'd ever happen.

[Shadotter]

Or maybe at least find a way to make them worthwhile for casting, it looks like they tried that with the blm mythic by giving it a lot of MAB, but unfortunately it just doesn't compare to the elemental potency from the ele staves. Mythic did seeem to be designed as something to be used either in between casting or when you can't cast due to a lack of mp or silence, and while the greater damage from it might be a viable way to keep your damage up, in most cases it would likely be a better choice to just use an echo drop or rest your mp up. Not sure what they were thinking of with Hvergelmir, maybe that we would melee and ws to keep our mp up, but aside from that I'm not seeing too much good for it aside from maybe for use when meleeing while solo or in things like campaign. Really one change they should add to at least one of the special staves would be to give it an effect that gives like mayb +10 elemental potency matching day or something similar.

[Dallas]

Byrth, if you want to invent some new pdif formula to defend yourself, do it. Otherwise, your "kegsay pdif" is 11/10 = 1.1

Figure out that mob defense and tell us your "Kegsay attack."

[Alhanelem]

He's not inventing anything. Until you come forward with a 100% accurate formula and an explanation, his "invention" is as accurate as anything else we've got.

[Dallas]

Sorry Al, but in the midst of Byrth's mindless support of this formula, there's a melee SMN using well established rules that is kicking the absolute SNOT out of avatar melee. There are no make-believe rules for melee SMN damage. Byrth's delusions are constrained by well known formulas and results.

If Byrth can't extend Kegsay's work to L95, the formula dies with the bat-suit.

[Alhanelem]

Still waiting for you to come forward with this 100% accurate formula and well established rules. Until you do, you're talking out your behind more than he is.

You NEVER present actual data or evidence, you always attack the person, a fallicious method of argument.

[Dallas]

Al, do you really think you've earned any new rights to demand data from me since wiki? I've been cleaning up your mess for years.

[Razushu]

Still waiting for you to come forward with this 100% accurate formula and well established rules. Until you do, you're talking out your behind more than he is.

You NEVER present actual data or evidence, you always attack the person, a fallicious method of argument.

Because he can't AL, he has nothing but that approach, and even in that method he fails.

[Kimble]

Dallas is just a troll. Its pretty pointless to ask him to actually back up what he says because he has no proof.

All you can do is make sure to let it be known hes wrong and not worth listening to, so other players dont get false information and get lead down the wrong path.

[Greatguardian]

Dallas is just a troll. Its pretty pointless to ask him to actually back up what he says because he has no proof.

All you can do is make sure to let it be known hes wrong and not worth listening to, so other players dont get false information and get lead down the wrong path.

At this point, after he's ruined so many threads with his tripe, anyone who listens to a word he says deserves what comes to them. He is a massive troll, and it's simply not worth responding to him at all.

[Byrth]

Sorry, I kind of forgot about this where this thread was headed.

I don't feel obligated to establish formulas that govern avatar melee. It would be interesting if someone did it, and I'd probably read it, but it's a lot of work for a pretty minimal reward considering how little we can affect it and how small its contribution to damage is. The real interesting reason to work on this has nothing at all to do with Avatars. The reason to work on this is that the same equations probably govern monster -> player damage dealt, so by learning about them we could finally answer the question of "How much defense is X% PDT worth?"

As far as avatars are concerned, most important parts (shown mostly by Kegsay) are:
* A large fraction of Avatar's base damage come from fSTR, which is uncapped.
* Avatars likely have high attack.

If you want to prove them to yourself, repeat the test that I did.

[Dallas]

If you want to prove Byrth wrong, you fight a dozen things and try to draw a straight line. I did it years ago, and have moved on to the better things. There's no chance in hell I'm pretending you are an authority on SMN. Your source came to me, so lol@u.

Really, what sort of rancid site is Bat Galkan HQ now where a single data point (lolbyrth) or excel spreadsheet (lolgg) is proof? I've seen anecdotal evidence from Al that's more informed than either of you, and that's pathetic.

[Alhanelem]

This popcorn is delicious. Mmmmmm....

[Razushu]

This popcorn is delicious. Mmmmmm....

It sure is, glad I bought the extra large or I think I'd have run out before now.

[Byrth]

Oh well, good luck Elementa. At least you're not on my server. It wouldn't even really matter if you were, because Summoner is essentially incapable of affecting its own damage output beyond AF3+2 body and BP delay gear, both of which I'm sure you already use. So you might be a bad player, but it's hard for even a bad player to be a bad summoner.

[Soranika]

I dunno Byrth... low summoning magic means horrible MP management. Out side abyssea, it means more smn on their knees or not using blood pacts every 5 minutes. Inside abyssea.... who still cares about what goes on in abyssea?

[Vold]

I once SMN regards to peanut butter outside at fishing warm clothes and Odin 9999 dmg at dusk. That's about how much sense everyone in here is making to me. The moral of the story: Melee lifers don't bother clicking on threads relating to mage stuff. If you see a SMN agent you do what I do, you run. You run your ass off.

[Dallas]

It wouldn't even really matter if you were, because Summoner is essentially incapable of affecting its own damage output beyond AF3+2 body and BP delay gear

And yet with the staff titled in this thread, people are doing twice the damage of the best SMN you have ever seen. The stupidest thing Bat Galkans ever did was run off Al. If you had even an ounce of knowledge what Claustrum was capable of, this thread could have been yours.

[Razushu]

And yet with the staff titled in this thread, people are doing twice the damage of the best SMN you have ever seen. The stupidest thing Bat Galkans ever did was run off Al. If you had even an ounce of knowledge what Claustrum was capable of, this thread could have been yours.

Poor Dallas no matter how hard you try you just can't seem to find anyone who cares about how fast you can kill {Easy prey}, can you?

[Alhanelem]

*yawn* the popcorn is running out... When's dallas going to say something interesting? All this "I'm great and all these unnamed people doing this unnamed stuff I won't specify are great" is starting to get boring.

[Greatguardian]

*yawn* the popcorn is running out... When's dallas going to say something interesting? All this "I'm great and all these unnamed people doing this unnamed stuff are great" is starting to get boring.

Probably nothing substantial until someone takes the time to go dig up his "personal work" (I mean, we all know he's Elementa/Craftermath) and shoot it down. It's a fairly common trend of his. He claims to have done all the math and testing years ago and doesn't feel the need to bother explaining himself because "We can find it if we want to", despite him posting "anonymously", lulz.

[Razushu]

Probably nothing substantial until someone takes the time to go dig up his "personal work" (I mean, we all know he's Elementa/Craftermath) and shoot it down. It's a fairly common trend of his. He claims to have done all the math and testing years ago and doesn't feel the need to bother explaining himself because "We can find it if we want to", despite him posting "anonymously", lulz.

I miss his crazy claims:( we need them back. Quick Dallas come tell us Hvergelmir SMN can out damage an Ukon WAR.

[Soranika]

I dunno. After that "I have common sense. I melee in dynamis, but not voidwatch" (not exact quote) came out, it's clear that there was a huge misunderstanding in his over inflated and exaggerated sense of melee smn or gtfo mentality and those of us who were trying to be rational about the utility of a melee smn.

[Dallas]

The thread was doomed to fail the moment the Bat Galkans arrived. We've seen their collective work... One mob. They will blindly attack work they don't know exists, but you can bank on them never attacking a second mob EVER.

[Leonlionheart]

More like the only content in the game that is challenging enough that you can't duo it with WHM MNK

[Razushu]

The thread was doomed to fail the moment the Bat Galkans arrived. We've seen their collective work... One mob. They will blindly attack work they don't know exists, but you can bank on them never attacking a second mob EVER.

Dallas, please go back to the crazy claims, made up figures and and dumb insults. Please we miss that, you are no longer entertaining, it's sad. Either that or you know, go away.