I think it's about time SE started concidering feedback from non-Japanese players.

[noodles355]

Seriously, this is getting absolutely rediculous.

Camate and Bayhonne post us info from the dev teams, however it is always a response to a japanese question. The times when it appears to have been in direct response to a question from the english forums, its simply because the same question had already been asked in Japanese.

When we give feedback on jobs and abilities, unless it's something the japanese playerbase has mentioned too, then it will be ignored.
Thieves are complaining about so many aspects of the job. They are so unhappy with SE's adjustments and reasons for those adjustments.
Rangers and Corsairs have been shouting about ammo concerns for absolutely ages.
Pups have been very vocal about their terrible puppet whm AI.

We've had confirmation that our issues have been passed onto the Dev team, Camate has been reassuring us after we felt we were being ignored with posts such as:

First off, I just want to let you know that I have already delivered all of your concerns expressed in this thread thus far to the development team, however, I have not received a comment as of yet.

We already put in a request to the dev. team regarding ammunition-related concerns. However, instead of holding up the release on these posts, we chose to proceed with them and update with further details after the fact.
However the Dev team continues to ignore them.

Those first three examples - what were SE's responses to them? THF's Bully has been nerfed in potency from terrible to more terrible with the added bonus of increasing TH level up procs. Almost every single thief in the english forums doesn't want more TH boosting abilities. We want more useful utility abilities. Bully sounded awesome - even with a short duration and a long recast if the potency was good enough it could be very useful for HNM 2HRs like Hundred Fists or Chainspell. But then somehow they get the idea that thf doesn't want this, it just wants more TH boosting abilities. Infomation they're likely getting from the Japanese forums.

The biggest topic Rangers were complaining about was ammunition, but then when SE come to comment on Ranger, they completely miss out this huge issue yet somehow find space to reply to a comment about Blast Shot having a melee damage formula instead of a ranged one? No english player even mentioned Blast Shot. Blast Shot was probably mentioned once in the japanese forums. So every little thing posted in the japanese forums will be taken into concideration whilst the nglish forums go ignored?

Then there's pups. Tell me pups, after all your complaining about the automaton's AI, what did SE give you? An overload reducing ability that 90% of you say is unneeded? I wonder what feedback gave them the idea to implament that, because it wasn't infomation from the english forum.

Let's look at another job and adjustment: Dragoon. We are really happy with Steady Wing and the wyvern damage taken change. This is what we've been wanting for a long time. We got the adjustments and have no negative feedback at all, we think it's great. But then SE come out and say "due to feedback, we've buffed the ability to negate even more damage". A quick look through the japanese forums shows that the JP players want it more powerful. We're not complaining about the buff, but this is just another example of SE completely ignoring the rest of the playerbase and only listening to feedback from the Japanese players.

I'm sure there are many other examples, sadly I can only provide infomtion on the jobs I play and forums I follow. But look through your adjustment notes - how man important issues have gone ignored, while trivial things from the japanese playerbase have recieved attention?

We all thought that this forum was a front, and that the dev team were still completely ignoring the playerbase, yet now it seems we were wrong, they're not ignoring everybody, they're just ignoring everybody who's not Japanese or who doesn't post in the japanese forum.

Yes it's a japanese company, but it is still absolutely appalling that they ignore everyone except the Japanese. It's about as justified as making foriegners have to buy Crysta in set amounts, but allowing the japanese to buy it in any amount they need.
It's time for a change. It looks like the dev team are going "This is our japanese game for our japanese players. You're lucky we let you dirty foriegners play it at all so just sit over there and shut up."

My message to you dev team? Prove me wrong.

[Gokku]

in before lock

[Yugl]

Anything but enhanced specialization for THF is either going to be marginally useful or overpowered. Improving DRG's steady wing is a welcome change because it brings the average-ideal damage a wyvern can take per 3min closer to 300% of the wyvern's HP (Realistically, it will only bring the amount to the 258%ish range, which is roughly 4 one-hit moves before the wyvern KOs from purely powerful AoE moves).

[Leonlionheart]

Maybe this is why so much of the update is lack luster?

Japanese players are pretty poor. I think magic accuracy swords speak for themselves.

[Runespider]

Camate and Bayhonne post us info from the dev teams, however it is always a response to a japanese question. The times when it appears to have been in direct response to a question from the english forums, its simply because the same question had already been asked in Japanese.

We all know how it works, the dev team is Japanese so they can read the posts themselves. That's why it works how it does, if the devs were english speaking it would be the other way around.

The reps pass on some of the stuff we post, and then it has to be translated etc...some stuff gets passed on, thats the best we are going to ever get.

[Leonlionheart]

Whats the percentage of NA players to JP players to EU players?

You'd think they'd listen to the biggest revenue bearing player base.

[Inafking]

My message to you dev team? Prove me wrong.

What makes you think this meggase isn't going to be just another thread ignored by the dev team?

[noodles355]

Of course it'll be ignored by the dev team. Unless a shitstorm the size of the click n buy stuff arises.
The japanese players will make up the majority of the playerbase, but that is not an excuse to ignore the rest of it. If it was something like 90% Japanese 10% other, then I wouldn't mind as much, but the ratio certainly isn't that high.

Camate and company are being paid (I'd sure hope) to pass on infomation to the dev team (and translate as well?). Yes the dev team can read japanese info first hand, but through Camate and Bayhonne the infomation from the other nataionality players is there for them to concider - they're just continuing to ignore it.

[Urteil]

Fully agree.


Perhaps one day we'll all get sick of it and quit, then it will be too late.

[Vold]

Whats the percentage of NA players to JP players to EU players?

You'd think they'd listen to the biggest revenue bearing player base.
Apparently they are. JP blow everyone else out of the water. They're like 3 to 1 on NA. I know it doesn't seem like it judging by being in game but I think it's just English speaking folk having big mouths at work. We're more prone to playing solo and stuff. They're more prone to playing together and not needing to shout. Shrug. I come to this conclusion by comparing views to sticky threads in both forums. They have three times more views. It's about as close as you'll get to having an idea of the numbers. FFXI is a Japanese MMO at the end of the day. And we are the minority for it.

[Shiyo]

Japanese players are incredibly racist and rude, I wish they would have their own server :/ They obviously do not like anyone that isn't japanese.

Constantly see JP's soloing magian trials and I ask them to team up, they don't respond, completely ignore me, and continue to kill mobs. My friends experience the same thing...they'd rather compete for mobs than team up with english speaking players.

[Meyi]

Shiyo, I've been having the same problem all day. But I must admit it's not always like that; there are more kind hearted Japanese players than terrible ones. The nice people never stand out while the rotten apples spoil the bunch.

Perhaps we should learn Japanese fluently and post our ideas in the Japanese thread? They might have a better chance of being read then.

[Runespider]

Japanese players are incredibly racist and rude, I wish they would have their own server :/ They obviously do not like anyone that isn't japanese.

Constantly see JP's soloing magian trials and I ask them to team up, they don't respond, completely ignore me, and continue to kill mobs. My friends experience the same thing...they'd rather compete for mobs than team up with english speaking players.

No they aren't, not anymore than anyone else anyway. Aren't you that person with an anti jp bazar comment anyway, I wonder why they don't invite you?!

I don't do a lot of Magians anymore but I've had so many issues with inviting people and them going afk for long periods 10 minutes after arriving. Sometimes I'd rather leave than team up.

Funnily enough in all the time I've done magians the people that went afk for long periods etc were always english speaking, I've never had a JP player join and do these kinds of things. I don't blame them for not inviting english speaking players sometimes, a few bad eggs ruin it for everyone. The same kind of people that afk during GoV, Abyssea, DoM ops and yeah Magians. Going afk in a party is a western playstyle and it's pretty widespread now.

[Shiyo]

My bazaar comment is copying a JP players, except I put English only(when his was JP only) ^_^

Also wow, I GUESS WE MUST PLAY COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GAMES! All my friends must be liars just like me.

Western players are just afking leeching retards! Man, it sucks.

[Eric]

Jesus Christ you people are annoying.

EU players, NA players and JP players are all stupid and racist. The only difference is that they're from Europe, North America and Japan, respectively. Trying to generalize things based off of some bad experiences is one of the most primitive thought patterns that occur in human beings. It's our instinct; it's how we were able to learn so well when the human race was first growing and developing.

The difference is that now things are more complicated to the point that overgeneralizing is a huge contributor to lots of problems, including racism, war, and just hatred in general. How about you people evolve a little and realize that there are stupid people everywhere, and that ethnicity (while it may or may not be a contributing factor) should not be the main factor in your assessment of someone.

[Shiyo]

No, I'm pretty sure I'm right. Japan players outright HATE and DESPISE English speaking players. NA/EU/ETC don't care who they're playing with at all.

Never seen ENGLISH ONLY! See JP ONLY! a LOT.

[Eric]

Being dumb and stubborn is also a primitive instinct. oh wait, no that's just being dumb and stubborn because you refuse to try to evaluate your way of thinking.

Edit: I have not seen any JP only for years. How about you open your eyes and ditch your antiquated way of thinking?

[SpankWustler]

EU players, NA players and JP players are all stupid and racist.

This.

Also, I wonder if in some topic deep in the Japanese forums some bro or bro-ette is screaming "WHY DID WHITE PEOPLE WANT SCARLET DELIRIUM TO ONLY TAKE ONE HIT INTO ACCOUNT?!" or "SHOW ME THE FRENCHMAN WHO ASKED ABOUT BLAST SHOT SO THAT I MAY STRIKE HIM DOWN!"

I can't imagine any community being happy with certain decisions.

Also, I think we notice the weird stuff so accutely now because by and large things are so much better than five years ago. During the Chains of Promathia era, I'm pretty sure abilities like Bully and arrows made out of pieces of Kirin's great-aunt's antique vase would have been par for the course and accepted as such.

[Shiyo]

Ever seen English only search/bazaar/etc comments? No? Thought so

Ever seen JP ONLY? Yeah, you have, don't lie.

I'm right.

[Eric]

Ever seen English only search/bazaar/etc comments? No? Thought so

Ever seen JP ONLY? Yeah, you have, don't lie.

I'm right.

I'll admit, I haven't seen "English only"; however, I have seen a bunch of backwards English-speaking players making some of the most racist and ignorant comments I've seen. In fact I'm seeing some of this in this very thread! What a surprise!

[SpankWustler]

Ever seen English only search/bazaar/etc comments? No? Thought so

Ever seen JP ONLY? Yeah, you have, don't lie.

It's true that the Japanese community, on average, is more insular than any other community within FFXI. That doesn't make blanket statements like "Japanese players are incredibly racist and rude" any less gross.

[Deadvinta]

I would like to point out two useful things to remember:

-The language barrier between English and Japanese is much more difficult to break than English to Spanish, or English to German. A lot of Japanese people don't like trying to read Roman letters.

-There are a lot more people in the NA and EU demographic that worry about the Japanese players being racist against them than there are Japanese players that are racist against NA and EU players.

[Leonlionheart]

How did a thread about who the dev team pays attention to suddenly burst out into a racism war?
People be racist. You're not going to change their minds and each side has them.

However, to my understanding JP players don't like playing with others because they view EU and NA players to be very inefficient. This is why I always wanted to go to a JP party back in the day, because they always had the best exp/hour, though they were INCREDIBLY boring. NA parties were more fun, but rarely accomplished as much as JP.

Though they are generally pretty poor at gearing themselves, you must admit.

[Quetzacoatl]

This is not going to end well.

[Darkwizardzin]

How did a thread about who the dev team pays attention to suddenly burst out into a racism war?
.....If the OP's claims are true then the dev team is allegedly being racist to everyone non jp.... are you realy not surprized where this thread is heading?

From the get go the tone of this thread was jaded with an unhappy tone... and from the looks of it it's only gonna go downhill from here.


This is not going to end well.
I couldn't agree more.

[Arcon]

Japanese players are incredibly racist and rude, I wish they would have their own server :/ They obviously do not like anyone that isn't japanese.

Constantly see JP's soloing magian trials and I ask them to team up, they don't respond, completely ignore me, and continue to kill mobs. My friends experience the same thing...they'd rather compete for mobs than team up with english speaking players.

I wasn't racist before I played FFXI. Now I'm starting to think I might be. In my 6.5 years of playing I've been very social, done various different things with shout parties and whatnot, and I met lots of people. Two Japanese people ended up on my friend list, and sadly neither plays anymore. The occasional "nice" player in my own shout party (or "not rude " player, to be more precise) excluded, I've never come across a nice Japanese player.

My biggest complaint is the lack of communication. Now, whenever people complain that Japanese people don't communicate someone comes along and says some garbage like this:
"It's not rude, they just can't communicate as well, and the auto-translate feature is unreliable and they just wanna avoid confusion and misunderstandings."

I've heard this line so many times, and it grinds my shit for so many reasons. First of all, it's bullshit. You can't tell me anyone could possibly misinterpret:
"{Excuse me...} {Team up?} {Item} {You can have this.} {Please invite me.}"

So then why wouldn't they team up? Do they think I can ninjalot the items? In that case, they're stupid because if they're the leader they can just kick me anyway if I don't pass after a while. Ninjalotting doesn't work if you're careful, it never did. After 4min just kick people who didn't pass and that's that. So either they're being rude by ignoring you, or they're being stupid by being paranoid.

Another reason why this is bullshit is because this game is meant to be international. Their own Japanese company decided so. So what, are you saying the foreign community is just there to pump money into their pockets, but doesn't deserve to be treated equally? Actually, as of late, I don't have much trouble believing that. Maybe this was SE's plan all along.

And yet another reason why it's bullshit is because it works for every other damn language I've encountered. I've seen Greek people who barely speak English use auto-translate on their English version of the game to communicate with Korean people who barely spoke English on their English version of the game. So again, if you're saying it doesn't work for Japanese people, you're basically insulting them by saying they're too dumb to form a coherent sentence out of already semi-coherent Japanese words, something every four year old can do without trouble.

Japanese people simply don't care and like to play with foreign people, and it would be ok in some cases. However, when that mentality imposes a restriction on other people's ability to enjoy the game, then we have a problem, and sadly, that is the case.

There is nothing stopping them from teaming up with others, at no expense to their own ability to play and enjoy the game, no risk, no downside. Just a downside for everyone else if they decline.

And to this day, I have never and will never decline a friendly request to team up with Japanese or other people, because I firmly believe in doing good things being rewarded eventually. I just wish that feeling was mutual.


EU players, NA players and JP players are all stupid and racist. The only difference is that they're from Europe, North America and Japan, respectively.

Wrong. Believing everyone is equal is one of the most fundamental mistakes of the hippie mindset. Every generation, every local population, every gender, every race has differences, it's not about which is better or worse, it's just about being different. Don't confuse racial with racist. It's racial to distinguish between the different races, it's racist to put one race ahead of the other. No one is saying we're better than the Japanese, you can't factually compare this anyway. But you can compare compatibility, and they've shown me repeatedly that they don't mix well.

Sure, maybe I just had bad luck in my experience, maybe the bad ones stand out more than the good ones. But when there are no good ones at all, among a shitload of samples, that's a very strong indication that something isn't right.

Japanese players should definitely have seperate servers. It would benefit everyone. They wouldn't have to put up with retarded gaijin, we wouldn't have to put up with rude behaviour (as much). Win/win. And you cannot tell me they wouldn't want that too, you just can't.

[Shiyo]

Couldn't agree with arcon more :x

I had a JP friend and I asked him why JP's don't like to play with English speaking players. He told me JP find english speaking players "bad", we take "more people to kill things they can kill with few" "we leech and skill up in exp parties" etc etc. I'm like..really? So those AFK leeching JP's I had to kick from my abyssea parties were my imagination? Those JP's I saw wipe to Deelgeed with 8 people in full pink was a dream of mine? Those 12 JP's I saw killing a T1 feet seal NM and taking 15 mins per kill was just a bad dream?

Yeah right.

So basically they find us inferior to them, and think they're the superior master race. LOL?

[noodles355]

Ok, enough of the japanese vs western debate about who are the better or worse or more racist players. It's irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Even if the FFXI playerbase is 75% Japanese to 25% Others, that's still a very significant portion of your playerbase to completely ignore, especially when you're paying people like Camate to gather and translate their feedback.

[Leonlionheart]

.....If the OP's claims are true then the dev team is allegedly being racist to everyone non jp.... are you realy not surprized where this thread is heading?

From the get go the tone of this thread was jaded with an unhappy tone... and from the looks of it it's only gonna go downhill from here.

I might go back and read it now; it's kind of a daunting text-wall.

EDIT: Eh, I read it. It's all valid points up until the last paragraph. I realized I had previously skimmed it over enough and that's why I didn't get what you're saying.

But honestly I agree to the sentiment, not to everything said there. I think the dev team does favor JP more, but I also agree with something else said in this thread, that the language barrier is probably the biggest issue.

[Aldersyde]

I had a JP friend and I asked him why JP's don't like to play with English speaking players. He told me JP find english speaking players "bad", we take "more people to kill things they can kill with few" "we leech and skill up in exp parties" etc etc. I'm like..really? So those AFK leeching JP's I had to kick from my abyssea parties were my imagination? Those JP's I saw wipe to Deelgeed with 8 people in full pink was a dream of mine? Those 12 JP's I saw killing a T1 feet seal NM and taking 15 mins per kill was just a bad dream?

Some players are just bad regardless of whether they're NA, EU, JP, or whatever. I have to say though, I see a lot of behavior from English-speaking players that annoys me to no end in pickup groups, the most being incessant, inane chatter about topics I don't want to really talk to strangers about. It's seriously embarrassing seeing how some English players act in pick-up groups and I don't blame JP players for not wanting to play in those kind of parties. Hell, I refuse most random invites from English-speakers to team up on magian or whatever because I don't feel like it. I don't feel like chatting, putting up with chat spam filling my screen or with people afking constantly when I just want to get something done in peace. You just don't know what kind of person you're going to get until you accept an invite. I have a linkshell for group events. I have friends. If I'm in zone alone already, it's probably because I've chosen to play solo for the evening. Nobody's obligated to accept an offer to team up.

It most likely comes down to personal preference on the part of the individual. I've been invited more than a few times by JPs to team up on trials or seal nms, which I've accepted because most times I've found that they shut the hell up and do the job we're there to do. Of course, everyone's individual experience will vary but at the same time if you're already looking for discriminatory behavior based on race, that's probably what you'll find.

[Runespider]

No, I'm pretty sure I'm right. Japan players outright HATE and DESPISE English speaking players. NA/EU/ETC don't care who they're playing with at all.

Never seen ENGLISH ONLY! See JP ONLY! a LOT.

This is mostly rubbish.

Jp as a community just play in a very different way, they tend to try to enjoy the time they put into the game and play as a group with friends as a team effort. Western players are goal orientated and don't really care how they get things done.

Thats why you see JP only, cause they want things done properly and not grouping with people they can't work or communicate with. Western players don't care who or what they group with as long as they get what they want out of it. Different play styles.

[Arcon]

Some players are just bad regardless of whether they're NA, EU, JP, or whatever. I have to say though, I see a lot of behavior from English-speaking players that annoys me to no end in pickup groups, the most being incessant, inane chatter about topics I don't want to really talk to strangers about. It's seriously embarrassing seeing how some English players act in pick-up groups and I don't blame JP players for not wanting to play in those kind of parties. Hell, I refuse most random invites from English-speakers to team up on magian or whatever because I don't feel like it. I don't feel like chatting, putting up with chat spam filling my screen or with people afking constantly when I just want to get something done in peace. You just don't know what kind of person you're going to get until you accept an invite. I have a linkshell for group events. I have friends. If I'm in zone alone already, it's probably because I've chosen to play solo for the evening. Nobody's obligated to accept an offer to team up.

This attitude is what people in here complain about. It's anti-social in a social game. You're wrong here. No, you're not obligated to do anything, that's where the famous "it's my 50 bucks a month"-argument comes from. But it sure would be nice of you. Also, I have to mention that you're the first English-speaking I've seen who thinks that. Or are you just a Japanese dude in disguise, trying to show us that English people are anti-social too?

We have a certain group of people/LS on Leviathan that are famous for being total jerks by any definition of the word. And even they will team up as long as you're not getting in their way. I've never had any English-speaking group decline an invitation to team up before.


This is mostly rubbish.

Jp as a community just play in a very different way, they tend to try to enjoy the time they put into the game and play as a group with friends as a team effort. Western players are goal orientated and don't really care how they get things done.

This is mostly rubbish.

Casual JP people don't bother most people on here, it's the goal-oriented, who will do nothing at all to interact in with anyone else and just do their thing, without regard for others.

And again, that would be totally fine in some cases, where no one else is hurt. But if they just want a kill on a VNM, and let all the items floor, they effectively cost another group 15min of their life by not teaming up. They actually hurt other people with what they do. And that's the stuff that annoys most people on here.

Sorry for derailing this thread so much, but I can't stand when people talk garbage.

[Runespider]

Casual JP people don't bother most people on here, it's the goal-oriented, who will do nothing at all to interact in with anyone else and just do their thing, without regard for others.

And again, that would be totally fine in some cases, where no one else is hurt. But if they just want a kill on a VNM, and let all the items floor, they effectively cost another group 15min of their life by not teaming up. They actually hurt other people with what they do. And that's the stuff that annoys most people on here.

This is very rare, and I've come across english speaking players that did it too. I teamed up with tons of JP players when doing my VNM trials.

If JP didn't play the game so much differently they would be no JP only, I've known some horribly racist western players that would do stuff with JPs if they got gear out of it. Most JP players don't really want gear at any cost, they like to be able to the event as a team and communicate effectively etc. Thats why they take far more people to do things etc while most western players will take only what they have to take.

Anyway I'm glad we all get to play together, warts and all. I've played WoW on segregated servers and it really makes the game a lot more boring and soulless.

As for OP, as I said it's simply a matter of the native speaking language of the dev team. As such its easier for them to read all the posts on the jp forum.

[Eric]

Wrong. Believing everyone is equal is one of the most fundamental mistakes of the hippie mindset. Every generation, every local population, every gender, every race has differences, it's not about which is better or worse, it's just about being different. Don't confuse racial with racist. It's racial to distinguish between the different races, it's racist to put one race ahead of the other. No one is saying we're better than the Japanese, you can't factually compare this anyway. But you can compare compatibility, and they've shown me repeatedly that they don't mix well.
I was never saying that all races are the same. I just said that all races are stupid and racist, and you know why? Because it's human nature. I'll admit that Japan's social norms are more xenophobic than other cultures, but that doesn't mean that all of a sudden people are in the right by calling all JP players racist and rude. By comparison, it's a fact that black people are more likely to go to jail than other races, but you don't see people going around saying that all black people are criminals. Having the audacity to try to justify statements like that as "not racist" is even worse, but apparently you seem to have a problem processing that. Over-generalization and blanket statements are the basis for fundamentally flawed mindsets. If I'm a hippie by trying to use my brain as opposed holding a few bad experiences against an entire race of people, then so be it.

By the way, while I'm talking about that, LOL. "The hippie mindset" is apparently living in a world where people judge each other based off of their actions and their personality, as opposed to race.

I don't know where you are from, but this sort of trash-talk just makes me believe that you'd fit in perfectly alongside all of the other backwards white racists in the South(USA) eating fried butter and fried twinkies. Oh wait. . . by saying that am I being racist, or racial? Or does that sort of logic only apply when we're talking about JP players?

Edit: By the way, you talk about how it's only racism when you put one race above another, yet one of the first comments you made in reply to my post was "all races aren't equal". Hm. . . Does a racist really have any place in this sort of conversation? Obviously your blind prejudice is getting in the way of logical reasoning.

[Theytak]

ok, seriously people, do we want to get something done, or do we want to just throw out random blanket statements and argue in circles about totally irrelevant issues in regards to the problem at hand?

Shiyo, you're being completely, utterly racist, and you cannot deny that fact. You may be correct that english speaking players don't use ENGLISH ONLY like the JP players do JP ONLY, but that doesn't make every JP player a racist bastard. Keep in mind that most Americans are stupid, foul mouthed, and utterly incapable of compromising (I say this as an American). While the JP view of English speaking players is a blanket generalization, it's also somewhat accurate (Seriously, look at the FFXIAH or FFXIclopedia forums some time.).

HOWEVER. We hold the same negative connotations towards the JP playerbase as they do to us, and for reasons that have already been expressed and explained well enough that I don't need to reiterate them.

That said, the internal issues and differences between the English speaking and Japanese player bases HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DEV TEAM COMPLETELY IGNORING THE ENGLISH SPEAKING PLAYERBASE'S FEEDBACK.

In this situation, both sides are the victim, and neither the responsible party. STOP ARGUING ABOUT SHIT THAT DOESN'T MATTER.

The last thing this thread needs is people smashing japanese culture and society, because that's only going to worsen our situation. The dev team ignoring us because we make up a minority of their paying customers is understandable. Completely inexcusable, given that they ASKED US for feedback, but understandable. However, if they want feedback, and instead they see the "RAWRAWRJPFAIL" nonsense that has been going on so far in this thread, that's only going to encourage them to continue ignoring us.

ALL OF YOU, do the entire english speaking community a favor, and either delete your completely unnecessary, slanderous posts, or edit them and change the content to something productive and useful related to the topic at hand. If you're not willing to do that, then be ready to accept the blame when this thread falls through, because your bullshit will be the reason. And no, I'm not directing this post at Shiyo (beyond the initial paragraph, which is), or any other individual in this thread. I'm directing it at ALL OF YOU who are arguing FOR NO REASON.

[Arcon]

Blablabla [..]I'll admit that Japan's social norms are more xenophobic than other cultures[..]

Thanks for confirming what I've been saying. Glad to see we're on the same page.


Having the audacity to try to justify statements like that as "not racist" is even worse, but apparently you seem to have a problem processing that. Over-generalization and blanket statements are the basis for fundamentally flawed mindsets. If I'm a hippie by trying to use my brain as opposed holding a few bad experiences against an entire race of people, then so be it.

By the way, while I'm talking about that, LOL. "The hippie mindset" is apparently living in a world where people judge each other based off of their actions and their personality, as opposed to race.

Hippie. Point out even one of my statements that was racist. I am judging by actions. It just happens that actions and race show a correlation. There's nothing racist about that (as you said you agree).


I don't know where you are from, but this sort of trash-talk just makes me believe that you'd fit in perfectly alongside all of the other backwards white racists in the South(USA) eating fried butter and fried twinkies. Oh wait. . . by saying that am I being racist, or racial? Or does that sort of logic only apply when we're talking about JP players?

Do you have statistical evidence for that claim? Racial. No? Racist. I don't know about the situation in the US and I don't care much for it.


Edit: By the way, you talk about how it's only racism when you put one race above another, yet one of the first comments you made in reply to my post was "all races aren't equal". Hm. . . Does a racist really have any place in this sort of conversation? Obviously your blind prejudice is getting in the way of logical reasoning.

What prejudice? All races aren't equal. All people aren't equal. Blondes and Brunettes aren't equal, because their hair color is different. Am I a racist in realizing that? If anything is getting in the way of logical reasoning it's your lack of intellect. You're drawing wrong implications from my statements (like that I'm implying a difference in ranking when I say that races aren't equal, or that "the hippie mindset" is (sarcastically) living in a world where people judge each other based off of their actions and their personality, as opposed to race) and basing your arguments on that, which is leading precisely nowhere.

What's your point anyway? I don't even understand what you're ranting about. All I was talking about was my experience, and it's been overwhelmingly unambiguous. I'm a mathematician, and the law of large numbers basically says that after a certain sample size, the average will approach the expected value. Which, in this case means that certain claims are accurate after a large enough sample data. And my sample compiled over the last six years tells me Japanese people don't care for playing with us. That is all I said, and nothing else. And I stand by this. Whatever else you made up in that hippie head of yours you can keep to yourself.


Keep in mind that most Americans are stupid, foul mouthed, and utterly incapable of compromising (I say this as an American).

The ever so popular "I can make nigger jokes cause I'm a black guy" excuse. Doesn't fly. That was a racist comment.


That said, the internal issues and differences between the English speaking and Japanese player bases HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DEV TEAM COMPLETELY IGNORING THE ENGLISH SPEAKING PLAYERBASE'S FEEDBACK.

In this situation, both sides are the victim, and neither the responsible party. STOP ARGUING ABOUT SHIT THAT DOESN'T MATTER.

You say that, yet your entire post is just ranting about racism. I know how it is though, it's hard to stop once you get going.


ALL OF YOU, do the entire english speaking community a favor, and either delete your completely unnecessary, slanderous posts, or edit them and change the content to something productive and useful related to the topic at hand. If you're not willing to do that, then be ready to accept the blame when this thread falls through, because your bullshit will be the reason. And no, I'm not directing this post at Shiyo (beyond the initial paragraph, which is), or any other individual in this thread. I'm directing it at ALL OF YOU who are arguing FOR NO REASON.

Including yourself. Arguing about arguing is the most pointless kind of arguing. Especially if you're just bashing everyone, since that only invokes more arguing.

[Theytak]

The ever so popular "I can make nigger jokes cause I'm a black guy" excuse. Doesn't fly. That was a racist comment.

I didn't say it wasn't. I included "I say this as as an American" as a statement of "I say this as someone who lives here" as opposed to "I say this despite living in some other country". Also, it's not racist because it has nothing to do with race. It's anti-american, yes, but not racist. But now you've got me arguing about semantics when the entire point of my post was to get people to stop arguing about -useless- stuff and start discussing/disagreeing/arguing about the main point of the topic.


You say that, yet your entire post is just ranting about racism. I know how it is though, it's hard to stop once you get going.

My entire post is ranting about everyone in this thread being stupid. IMO, both sides have justified views, but none are relevant.


Including yourself. Arguing about arguing is the most pointless kind of arguing. Especially if you're just bashing everyone, since that only invokes more arguing.

My post was intended as a slap in the face for people who were arguing about nonsense. When it's no longer needed, I'll get rid of it. How does your post help try and get people back on the topic of this thread? It doesn't. Your post is just attempting to get me to argue back and therefor invalidate my entire post, but hey, what purpose does that serve? Yes, I'm human. Yes, I will respond and justify my post if you question it in an offensive manner for no real reason. No, that doesn't change the fact that what I said about everyone in this thread arguing about whether or not the JP players are racist is totally fucking pointless and not at all helpful in regards to the fact that this thread is about getting the devs to actually listen to us.

Now, are you going to continue to try and provoke me into joining the nonsense just because you can, or are you going to help get this thread back on track?

[Frost]

Camate's & Bayohne's combined post counts: 335
Foxclon's & Mocchi's combined post counts: 582

[Eric]

e·qual/ˈēkwəl/
Adjective: Being the same in quantity, size, degree, or value.
Noun: A person or thing considered to be the same as another in status or quality.

I'm not going to go deeper into arguing semantics, but equal is the wrong word to use when comparing races and trying not to imply that there is a ranking. To be honest, you stating that all races aren't "equal" is what made me make that post in the first place.


Do you have statistical evidence for that claim? Racial. No? Racist. I don't know about the situation in the US and I don't care much for it.
It's not a US-specific statement. You seem to be ignoring the point that I am trying to make. I'm just pointing out statistics, right? Same as you. How is my case different?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1352947/Black-drug-offenders-times-likely-jailed-whites.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/oct/31/race-bias-drug-arrests-claim

To clarify one of the statements I made: When I said that people should be judged based off of their actions and not their race, I meant individuals.

Now, I don't know why you felt the need to mention that you are a mathematician, but since you mentioned it, I feel like I have to reply to that. Mathematics(and subsequently, statistics) and studies of human behavior often intersect, but as a mathematician, you should know that you should not base your data from personal experiences, as opposed to a true SRS. Maybe it's certain situations that bring you to being ignored by JP players. There is no way to tell without a control setting, and without many other data points that you are missing and leaving out.

[SpankWustler]

I am so glad this topic occurred on a holiday weekend. It will really have the opportunity to go places.

Dark and awful places.

[Arcon]

Now, I don't know why you felt the need to mention that you are a mathematician, but since you mentioned it, I feel like I have to reply to that. Mathematics(and subsequently, statistics) and studies of human behavior often intersect, but as a mathematician, you should know that you should not base your data from personal experiences, as opposed to a true SRS. Maybe it's certain situations that bring you to being ignored by JP players. There is no way to tell without a control setting, and without many other data points that you are missing and leaving out.

I'm aware of that, as I said here:

Sure, maybe I just had bad luck in my experience, maybe the bad ones stand out more than the good ones. But when there are no good ones at all, among a shitload of samples, that's a very strong indication that something isn't right.

Which is also why I didn't say that all Japanese are like that (that was Shiyo). I'm tired of placing disclaimers everywhere around my posts, but I think it should be common knowledge by now that generalizations never work. When I say "Japanese people" or "DNC players" or anything like that, I never mean all of them (and I don't think that anyone, ever, does). I just mean that based on personal experience that is how it appears to me. If I knew it was a fact, I would react to that, and I would start behaving like this to them as well, out of spite. But I mentioned that I wouldn't do it, ever, because I know that my experience, however large the sample may be, doesn't reflect on the entirety of the Japanese community.


Camate's & Bayohne's combined post counts: 335
Foxclon's & Mocchi's combined post counts: 582

That is very interesting to see. Although the contents of those posts would also be nice to know. It does seem though, that all the relevant JP announcements we get as well (even if occasionally delayed). But still, it shows either a faster communication between their playerbase and the Devs, or a stronger involvement of the Community Reps.

[Eric]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/search.php?searchid=1813002

If you use google chrome, it will ask you if you want to translate to Japanese. It can only translate as well as an online translator can do, but it gives us a general idea of what they're saying.

From what I see, it's mostly the same things that we are being told.

Occasionally I look through the JP forums (with google translate) to see what sorts of things that the JP players are complaining about. I was curious to see if the majority of the Japanese were more pleased than we are with SE's actions. For the most part, it's the same. In my opinion, I don't think the problem is that SE listens to JP people more than they do to us, I just think that they don't listen to anyone.

[Octaviane]

Too bad that people continually have to use the "race/racist" card when they are annoyed that they're not getting what they want. It was even used in the payments option thread and while the argument was valid, it did not warrant the use of the race/racist card. No wonder the Japanese might have a dim view of NA and EU players.

The mentality shown here is shameful and makes me wonder how you all behave out on those mean streets of real life when you have to interact with people of different races/ethnicities/physically challenged/homeless/religions and politics.

In case you all forgot something, this is just a game. You can be upset about something, sure, you can post your grievances, np at all. Please do it in a respectful manner though. You have no business calling or alleging that people or a group of people are racist. After all, you don't know them from Adam. You might actually like them if you were to meet some of them. Now, wouldn't that be an amazing thing?

You really can't be that upset, if you were, you would have quit before you started playing. Camate and Bayhone have done a pretty darn good job of keeping the lines of communication open and correct their errors of translation. If you guys can do it better, go ahead and be as unbiased and non-commital as they have to be.

Just getting my 2 cents in before this thread is rightfully locked or deleted come Tuesday.

You all have a nice day. :)

[Puck]

Seriously, this is getting absolutely rediculous.
Ridiculous.


ri·dic·u·lous [ri-dik-yuh-luhs]
adjective
causing or worthy of ridicule or derision; absurd; preposterous; laughable: a ridiculous plan.

It comes from the word "ridicule." There's no such thing as "redicule."

Also, browser spellcheck [You can have this.].

[Runespider]

The mentality shown here is shameful and makes me wonder how you all behave out on those mean streets of real life when you have to interact with people of different races/ethnicities/physically challenged/homeless/religions and politics.

Real life has consequences, internet has almost none.

[noodles355]

Correcting people's spelling and grammar on an online forum is a waste of time. Your post was as constructive as the people arguing about racism.

I hope this topic does go somewhere, even if there's stupid racism arguments. You know what they say: there's no such thing as bad publicity. But if there's enough people commenting and complaining about SE either:
A) Ignoring the non-Japanese playerbase
B) Ignoring everyone

Then hopefully it'll get to the point where they will have to pull their heads out of the sand and realise that their playerbase is not happy with them at all.

[Puck]

Correcting people's spelling and grammar on an online forum is a waste of time. Your post was as constructive as the people arguing about racism.
Exactly. And about as constructive as this thread, but far less "rediculous."

[Arcon]

sand

I was expecting something else when I read that, though equally appropriate.

I do agree though, I mentioned in another thread how I supported SE fully after they released the official forums. I thought it was to start taking community input seriously, so of course I was psyched. But slowly I realized it was just to create the illusion that they care.

To be perfectly honest, what I mind isn't even the constant declining of useful user suggestions (so much), because I kind of expect that by now. SE thinks they know better than their users, and while that is a sad and arrogant assumption, it can't be helped at this point I'm afraid. What I hate are the bold-faced lies and ridiculous excuses they give for not incorporating/ignoring those suggestions. Saying stuff like "it's overpowered" for some features clearly shows they have no idea how the game works. And saying certain stuff isn't easy to implement and would take too much time or something to that effect shows either their lack of competence, because other people show them constantly that it can be done, or that they don't value that suggestion and are just fishing for excuses to avoid it.

In either case, I'd just appreciate if they were honest with us. At first these forums increased the respect I had for them as a company, however lately it's had the opposite effect. Every time they give more ridiculous replies or just ignore user requests it shows me, that they're not fit to design this game. I really hope something changes, because right now this "community" is a farce.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

In before lock.

[noodles355]

Why would it get locked? The innitial topic is a fair one: SE are ignoring either a significant part of, or all of their playerbase.
The only moderation that would be justified would be removing the off topic racism argument posts.

And puck. How constructive were all the payment option posts? They were all bitchfests, but guess what. Kick up a big enough shitstorm and they are forced to listen.

[Selzak]

It's true that the Japanese community, on average, is more insular than any other community within FFXI. That doesn't make blanket statements like "Japanese players are incredibly racist and rude" any less gross.
Said it a lot better than I was going to.

[AldielQuetz]

Just the simple fact that this thread has existed more than an hour proved the OP is right.

Who even READS the English forums other than Bayonne and Camate? Are they two guys from the mail room that got stuck with the job because they can speak English? Do they care about what Bayonne and Camate say AT ALL?

From the Paladin forums, we posted hundreds of good ideas, we want a stance, we want a new spell, we need this or that, and what did we get.... IGNORED.. Our threads were on the top of the charts last week and we get not even a mention for our efforts.

Why do you even offer these forums to non-native Japanese speakers if you aren't going to hear us?

The Japanese girl, Kimora, in our LS.. She even brags that if the Japanese want something, and they talk about it in the forums, they get it. So this racist behavior is NO secret.

Thanks for the forum to waste my time in, I'mma post in the JP forums in English from now on, maybe then we can get some BALANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[AldielQuetz]

Oh and @Eric

You might be right as well..

THEY MIGHT JUST HAPPEN TO BE IGNORING US ALL AND NOT JUST ONE PARTICULAR RACE. IF THAT BE THE CASE, THEN WE WOULD LIKE TO BE HEARD PLEASE, CAMATE.. BAYONNE.. WE ALL WANT TO BE LISTENED TO, NOT JUST HEARD AND IGNORED. WE GREATLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME, AND ON A PERSONAL NOTE, I LOVE YOU BOTH EVEN IF YOU ARE THE 2 GUYS THAT DREW THE SHORT STRAWS AND "LUCKED OUT! YAY!" AND GOT THE NA FORUMS, AT LEAST IT'S BETTER THAN THE MAIL ROOM, RIGHT?

THANK YOU,

HELP US,

PLEASE.

[SpankWustler]

Just the simple fact that this thread has existed more than an hour proved the OP is right.

I assume this thread is still kicking it non-moderated style because it's 9 AM PST on a Sunday on a holiday weekend. I look forward to seeing it grow and mature over the course of today and tomorrow in a style not unlike that of a gangrenous wound.

[Winrie]

How many more devs ain't talking to me wahhhhh jp threads are we ganna make before ppl finally give up, devs are not going acknowledge you and if you stir the pot enough they will just lock your threads or ban you from forum, not saying you're wrong op but it's senseless to even make threads like this.

[Gokku]

also the devs do not post on the weekend you wont get a response till monday / tuesday at the earliest.

[Inafking]

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk133/Inafking/kanye.jpg

[xbobx]

Is the reason racism, nah I don't think so. Jp do have a history of racism, this is true and cannot be denied. They still have signs over there on stores that say no foreigners.
But for this, to be honest, I doubt it even crosses their minds that they should listen to all their customers, they are just not business savvy over there. they use to be, but not lately.

[Zatias]

This brings me back to when I was having horrible experiences with JP players for a good while. I became concerned and irritated, and created a thread. Then I realized it's my server that's full of dicks and that they probably assumed that I was the same. That was just as bad as me assuming that most JP have it in for non-JPs, but hey, it's easier to throw assumptions based on a few bad experiences than to go through it again.

Not saying that it's right, but it is easier, and so it is the norm and our servers are filled with hatred. Hurray.

That aside, it is discrimination to ignore players just because of which region they play in. Based on what has been said here it does look like this is the case, though it's still an assumption. Assumptions don't always end well ;P

[Malamasala]

From the Paladin forums, we posted hundreds of good ideas, we want a stance, we want a new spell, we need this or that, and what did we get.... IGNORED..

I think too many ideas will just backfire, since it is too much work to translate it all to Japanese. But I've had my own problems with just getting simple feedback on spirits. Sometimes i wonder how hard it is to just say yes/no in Japanese.

[Aldersyde]

This attitude is what people in here complain about. It's anti-social in a social game. You're wrong here. No, you're not obligated to do anything, that's where the famous "it's my 50 bucks a month"-argument comes from. But it sure would be nice of you. Also, I have to mention that you're the first English-speaking I've seen who thinks that. Or are you just a Japanese dude in disguise, trying to show us that English people are anti-social too?

We have a certain group of people/LS on Leviathan that are famous for being total jerks by any definition of the word. And even they will team up as long as you're not getting in their way. I've never had any English-speaking group decline an invitation to team up before.

Now I know you're just creating caricatures. Your server must be full of saints. I've seen enough in Abyssea zones on my own server and from reading forums that the english community is not always that well behaved.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Good luck with this, SE only added English, German and French forums to make out they care about the remainder of their customer database.

[Darkvalkyr]

This attitude is what people in here complain about. It's anti-social in a social game. You're wrong here. No, you're not obligated to do anything, that's where the famous "it's my 50 bucks a month"-argument comes from. But it sure would be nice of you. Also, I have to mention that you're the first English-speaking I've seen who thinks that. Or are you just a Japanese dude in disguise, trying to show us that English people are anti-social too?

We have a certain group of people/LS on Leviathan that are famous for being total jerks by any definition of the word. And even they will team up as long as you're not getting in their way. I've never had any English-speaking group decline an invitation to team up before.

Oh, the hilarity...I'm amazed at what kind of saints the people on your server are and what kind of people it'd take to be called 'jerks'.

So like. My response reading this:
Page 1) Hey! A call to maybe have SE look at us more! Or at least some word of truth!
Page 2) ...ohman, racist discussion.
Page 3) ...more racist talk...
Page 4) When will it stop!?
Page 5) Hey, a constructive post to get things together amidst MORE RACISM TALK
Page 6)...I've just about given up with this topic.

[Riggs]

you know some times i don't even want to do certain things in this game with english speaking people of i have to explain exactly what to do, never mind try and use the auto translator, i really don't think people with jp only comment are rasist they just want to party with people they can easily understand.
Also i have done about 7 weapons to +2 nearly all before they reduced the kill numbers and gave x5 during weather and i teamed up with jp everytime and never once got ignored or refused

[Nynja]

This is why I always wanted to go to a JP party back in the day, because they always had the best exp/hour, though they were INCREDIBLY boring. NA parties were more fun, but rarely accomplished as much as JP.


Bolded whats important...back in the day, when NA just got the game and JP been playin for 2 years already. Once the NA community got the ball rolling about 6 years ago (which would have been the 2 year point), NA parties didnt really fall behind. I've also seen plenty of garbage JP pt's, bad players are everywhere.


I assume this thread is still kicking it non-moderated style because it's 9 AM PST on a Sunday on a holiday weekend. I look forward to seeing it grow and mature over the course of today and tomorrow in a style not unlike that of a gangrenous wound.

btw, "ignorant americans", there is no holiday weekend in Japan this week. I've searched on google for the past 10 minutes. Labor Day is celebrated on the first monday in Sept in the USA and Canada...not sure about other countries, didnt check. But Japan definately has no holiday this weekend.

Actually theres only one ignorant american, cuz its the same guy who brought it up multiple times

[Xellith]

Apparently they are. JP blow everyone else out of the water. They're like 3 to 1 on NA. I know it doesn't seem like it judging by being in game but I think it's just English speaking folk having big mouths at work. We're more prone to playing solo and stuff. They're more prone to playing together and not needing to shout.

was a guy today shouting for voidwalker. was JP ONLY

[AldielQuetz]

Listen, it's not about the players being racist to me, hell my sig says "I love Japanese people!" and I do....

BUT, when it comes to these forums... When unintentional or not, unthought out, and completely useless comments like Blast Shot are addressed but THF having Bully nerfed to give more TH happens, or like PLD not getting a spell, or like DRK getting the worst possible job buff to date happens, and the threads are a buzz with talk, these threads stay at the top for a week or more AND NOTHING HAPPENS, it makes me believe that we are not being listened to at all.

When a perfectly good buff like the DRG one, or the SCH 2 hour spells get buffed even more when they were already decent to good, and other jobs keep getting no help, it seems biased. And I know for a fact that the SCH "cry for help" and the DRG one began on the Japanese forums.

Camate, we are just connecting the dots, we want some love too, some time spent on improving the jobs that keep getting the shaft. Why can we not get help, we have been begging for the Devs to hear us and make positive change.

Please help all the jobs, not just DRG and SCH, make all of them get improved, that's what balance is isn't it?

Thank you.

[Sparthos]

was a guy today shouting for voidwalker. was JP ONLY

Because communication is important.

There is no racism in shouting for equal language individuals for an event that requires communication.

[Eric]

Because there isn't a gigantic thread in the English SCH forums "crying for help". Not only did Camate post several replies in the Scholar forum, but your attitude just shows how you're only willing to take into account data that is convenient for you to use.

"I know for a fact" is really a terrible way to begin your sentence when in fact, you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

[Eric]

Because communication is important.

There is no racism in shouting for equal language individuals for an event that requires communication.

Especially when auto-translate has ceased to be updated due to PS2 limitations. (I do however, still think that this attitude is borderline xenophobic/discriminatory.)

[Shibayama]

Look, I love Japan and I work for a Japanese company with Japanese bosses, but even so Japan *does* have an extremely zenophobic and conservative (despite what anime/manga/games portray... you know what I mean...) culture.

Japan has no concept of ethnicity and likes to consider themselves a homogenous society. In fact, to be considered "part of the group" means you're japanese, born and bred - not mixed. Hell even the Ainu people of Hokkaido (native americans of Japan basically) are not considered to be "authentic Japanese". The Burakumin (decendants of outcast people in feudal japan who worked with death like butchers and undertakers which is considered tainted in the Buddhist faith) are *still* shunned and discriminated against even today and have trouble finding jobs and getting married because of the stigma of not being considered to be Japanese.

There are afew other groups like this such as Nikkejin and Okinawans that also illustrate this point, but on these forums it almost feels like the same feelings are being reflected on the NA and EU playerbase. "You are not Japanese, so we put your priorities and desires on the back-burner." Most of what I have seen posted by the devs has just been a repost of what was already posted on a Japanese board. Perhaps that just means that this is the information that they want *all* the players to know and rely on the devs to pass that information on since they can't respond in english themselves, rather than outright favoritism. But as of right now, there does seem to be rather large discrepancy of the content of the posts, which mostly seem to come from Japanese players concerns and suggestions. Personally I would love it if more effort was taken to show us that its not just JP forum ideas and complaints that get focused on and addressed directly.

[Eric]

I agree that JP players can be xenophobic/racist, and that the devs may be slightly favoring JP players (although a quick look through the JP forums reveals that it's not as drastic as people are claiming), but discrimination based on discrimination doesn't really accomplish anything.

This thread isn't about JP players being racist, and although I contributed in derailing the conversation, as I've said before, I think that the bigger problem here is SE just neglecting to listen to the players of any nationality, and should be the main theme here as opposed to pointing fingers and arguing about who is racist or not.

Edit: Yes, the JP players get info earlier than we do, but I also think that's due to time zone differences and waiting for Camate and Bayohne to translate the messages.

Also, the job manifesto questions were taken mostly from JP players, but that is not to say that any of our concerns are not being passed along to the devs. I have seen many posts by Camate and Bayohne saying that they are passing our messages along to them.

[Nynja]

BLAH BLAH BLAH

You mean one of the jobs that was ridiculed for 6 years, and the job that has yet to be useful since its inception, are getting a buff ?!? OH MY GOD


and the new DRK JA isnt bad or useless in any means. Yes, its situationally useful, in the sense that you have to attempt to anticipate when you'll take big damage (not that I've done VW, but from what I hear, everything there does big damage) to activate it...but once its on, its on, for 3 minutes I believe. Souleater is active for 1, and requires constant curing, unless you're using BW.

[noodles355]

How many more devs ain't talking to me wahhhhh jp threads are we ganna make before ppl finally give upWhy should we give up? People didn't give up about click and buy, and they sorted/are sorting it out. The fact that you're willing to just accept it so easilly shows that it is there and is a problem. The more of a fuss people kick up about it, the more there's a slight chance something will happen.

This thread isn't about JP players being racist, and although I contributed in derailing the conversation, as I've said before, I think that the bigger problem here is SE just neglecting to listen to the players of any nationality, and should be the main theme here as opposed to pointing fingers and arguing about who is racist or not.Exactly, as I've stated in previoud posts, this topic is abut the discussion of either:
A) The dev team ignoring non-japanese posts.
B) The dev team ignoring everyone.

It's a problem, it needs to stop, and it needs people to shout out and make a big deal out of it to make anything happen. Why sit back and just accept it? It's been proven with click n buy that if enough people make a big deal out of it then something can happen.

[Sparthos]

Especially when auto-translate has ceased to be updated due to PS2 limitations. (I do however, still think that this attitude is borderline xenophobic/discriminatory.)

My linkshell has had Japanese members and while they can be extremely helpful, skilled and kind the language barrier can often make things more difficult than it needs to be.

Luckily these same members have a basic understanding of English in order to get a vague idea of what we're saying but for a pick-up group I can see exactly why JP may want to run an event with people who speak fluent Japanese.

This isn't say that some players aren't being racist or have simple-minded thoughts but when you're doing an event, the language barrier can make or break you. EXPing is totally different as much communication isn't needed.

[Yugl]

To be honest, the lack of evidence in your original post and the nature of the subject instigates these remarks. With exception to DRG, you don't prove that their ideas are drawn from the JP crowd rather than the other forums(There are other language forums here)/their own thoughts. It's also biased in that it ignores the stuff they did give us. They gave exactly 40% DT as suggested by OMEGAHACK and lolmeleeRDM buffs as certain vocal people have asked. Byrth and I have been particularly vocal about enhancing THF's TH specialization and complaints about RNG getting TH abilities has enhanced that concern. Overall, without strong evidence, it's almost as if you blamed JPs for any bad update ideas.

[Eric]

I've stated in previoud posts, this topic is abut the discussion of either:
A) The dev team ignoring non-japanese posts.
B) The dev team ignoring everyone.

It's a problem, it needs to stop, and it needs people to shout out and make a big deal out of it to make anything happen. Why sit back and just accept it? It's been proven with click n buy that if enough people make a big deal out of it then something can happen.

I agree, we shouldn't sit back and accept it. I've spoken out against SE's negligence several times, only to have people tell me to shut up about it.

What disgusts me is that instead of trying to take action and speak up against SE's stubbornness(or apathy, I can't read their minds), people are just looking to blame JP players with what's wrong with the update, as opposed to blaming the people who are actually in complete control of what is happening (hint: they're the people making the game, not the ones playing it).

[Shiyo]

I'm pretty sure SE doesn't just go by what JP's say <_<

RDM melee buffs? - > Idiots in the english RDM forums complaining about this

COR DD buffs? - > All jps think of cors as "ROLL JOB ONLY"

[Coldbrand]

Silly gaijin. You cannot resist us. We will consume your flesh to make our brood strong. Kneel before us. We know where you live. We know when you sleep. We are Square Enix. We will not listen to your pathetic cries catered to your baka interests. They are not kawaii nor desu~. We have the power of the PS2. Fear us. We are JP ONRY.

[Dallas]

LOL, SE does listen, you just have to know how to speak in a manner worth listening too. Easy + reasonable => implemented.

[Coldbrand]

LOL, SE does listen, you just have to know how to speak in a manner worth listening too. Easy + reasonable => implemented.


you're right, we should only expect that no results be shown in the product we've invested thousands in, we should only be so lucky as to see another dream bell update

how could we be so blind?

[Yugl]

I wouldn't advise that. He might come back and ask SE to make Ironclads less challenging. Fixing their difficulty will be the crux of the next update.

[AldielQuetz]

@Eric

Ad homonems About other posters having brain damage does make your posts appear to be intelligent.

AND.. When I say "I know for a fact" it's because I had a JP tell me that this SCH thing would happen a week before it did. She even gloated that the JP forums get things done. I blew it off until it all came true. That's not hearsay, that's either fortune telling or there is some truth to these allegations.

Either way, try to show others the same respect we show you. Thank you for your time.

[Eric]

Anecdotal "evidence" makes your claims appear intelligent and valid. Oh wait. . .

By the way, this mysterious JP you keep talking about can suddenly tell the future? You seem to be making things up. It's seems perfectly convenient that this player "gloats" about everything and can somehow read the minds of the SE developers.

As for being respectful, I'm not going to make the effort to show respect to people who don't deserve it.

By the way, did you notice that by sarcastically calling me intelligent, you are being a total hypocrite? Practice what you preach, Mr. Ad Hominem

[noodles355]

Byrth and I have been particularly vocal about enhancing THF's TH specializationOh, so you're to blame for making SE believe most thieves want a heap more TH boosting shit when really they want the opposite because having TH is seen as the main reason we can't have other nice things!

Jokes aside, in the end Yugl, SE ignore a LOT of stuff on the forums. This topic is trying to provoke a response and change it so they do listen more. Are you against them concidering more of our suggestions? Are you against them acknowledging the players more than they are already? Are you happy with them completely ignoring Rng/Cor ammo issues? Or Thf's abilities (Despoil, mug, steal) being 90% worthless? Yeah, they shouldn't do everything on this forum of course, but there are a lot of good ideas, and a lot of feedback about certain issues. When you have multiple-page long topics about perticular issues in which almost every poster is pretty much in agreement with eachother, yet it's completely ignored or responded with "passed it on to the dev team, but haven't heard anything", do you think that's ok?

[FrankReynolds]

Correcting people's spelling and grammar on an online forum is a waste of time. Your post was as constructive as the people arguing about racism.

I hope this topic does go somewhere, even if there's stupid racism arguments. You know what they say: there's no such thing as bad publicity. But if there's enough people commenting and complaining about SE either:
A) Ignoring the non-Japanese playerbase
B) Ignoring everyone

Then hopefully it'll get to the point where they will have to pull their heads out of the sand and realise that their playerbase is not happy with them at all.

There was a thread about player with JP accounts who couldn't get them linked to NA SE accounts and thus were losing them. I basically begged SE to respond because I kept getting told by NA support that I had to contact JP, and Vice versa. They locked the thread and told me to call support..... lol they don't care.

[Leonlionheart]

You know what, I'd like THF to get a bunch of TH boosting stuff. Can't argue with 2/2 Emp drops every time.

As long as THF has TH, they are guaranteed a spot in a party, and that is balance is it not?

[Frost]

You know what, I'd like THF to get a bunch of TH boosting stuff. Can't argue with 2/2 Emp drops every time.

As long as THF has TH, they are guaranteed a spot in a party, and that is balance is it not?

I been saying this for years. Thief has one thing almost no job has: "Job Trait: Job Security".

Anything that enhances TH, is just Job Security +1.

[FrankReynolds]

LOL unless someone is /thf

[Frost]

LOL unless someone is /thf

Jab to the ribs:

You do know that 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, & 12 > 2 right?

=]

[Winrie]

Why should we give up? People didn't give up about click and buy, and they sorted/are sorting it out. The fact that you're willing to just accept it so easilly shows that it is there and is a problem. The more of a fuss people kick up about it, the more there's a slight chance something will happen.
Exactly, as I've stated in previoud posts, this topic is abut the discussion of either:
A) The dev team ignoring non-japanese posts.
B) The dev team ignoring everyone.

It's a problem, it needs to stop, and it needs people to shout out and make a big deal out of it to make anything happen. Why sit back and just accept it? It's been proven with click n buy that if enough people make a big deal out of it then something can happen.

Why should you quit rambling? there's a huge difference in payment options with click and buy and childish whineing about SE answering your questions before anyone else. Bottom line is chances of people quitting and SE losing money over click and buy is a lot higher than people quitting over devs not answering you when you deem it so or patting you on the back for your suggestions. All this is, is whineing, about something that is irrelevant to anything. Ranting wont change crap, people have ranted for YEARS UPON YEARS for SE to have better communication with the playerbase, to listen to us more, 9 years down the line and several thousand rage threads later you got what you desired, a more vocal SE, once you obtained this that you desired so much, you complain because they wont shove that silver spoon even farther down your throats, you keep begging for more and more and more.. lol so ridiculous. All the 'WTF SE' threads on this forum, did the op or anyone supporting crap like this ever think the reason most NA/EU threads are not answered is because quite possibly the JP dont complain as much as the rest? Anyone? When i pull up these forums what do i see on a normal basis... out of 10 threads as an example i see 3-4 that are legit suggestion threads or ideas, or stuff on updates. The rest... are wtf se update omfg threads, THF screwed again, wtf se my relic sux, wtf se staff empy wtf u thinking, wtf se rdm sux for melee. I WONDER WHY SE DOESNT RESPOND TO THAT SECTION OF THE FORUMS WHEN THEY ARE TOO BUSY EDITING GARBAGE OFF IT. ffs.

[FrankReynolds]

Jab to the ribs:

You do know that 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, & 12 > 2 right?

=]

According to testing in thief forums, Everything above 2 has had little or no effect on drops. so yeah...

[Arcon]

According to testing in thief forums, Everything above 2 has had little or no effect on drops. so yeah...

Hate derailing this again, but it's been quoted time and again that TH over 2 has little/no effect, which I still don't agree with. I am disappointed in the effect, it seems to give diminishing returns, but if people really want drops, having a THF vs /THF could mean only needing to kill 28 Glavoids instead of 30, which is already a big plus.

I just really wish people would stop making TH worse than it is. It's bad, but not quite that bad. Only when there's a shortage of people, and a THF can't spared, then someone will be asked to /THF. Otherwise THF is still a popular choice and people will try to get ahold of one as much as they can.

Still, it isn't what the THF community desires. And the Devs don't appear to do anything at all about what was brought up in the THF forums (other then decreasing Bully recast, which no one cared for).

[noodles355]

Sure thief gets a garanteed spot in the alliance or party. It's awesome because tagging the mob once and going afk is really damn fun.
It will be interesting to parse my CC drops vs Carabosse drops (for empy mats) as I kill Cara Thf/Nin + Whm/Sch and will be killing CC Rdm/Blm + Whm/Thf.

But this isn't about thief. It's about SE ignoring the non-japanese community on certain issues, and ignoring everyone on other issues. The only reason I bring up Thf, Drg and Rng all the time is because those are the forums I follow, and the infomation I can gather first hand instead of having to interpret other jobs' complaints which I could get wrong.

[Leonlionheart]

I quite like decoy shot.

Jishnu's + Decoy shot = Happy PLD.

Edit: derailing is fun

[Afania]

Maybe this is why so much of the update is lack luster?

Japanese players are pretty poor. I think magic accuracy swords speak for themselves.

That's because JP players has entirely different point of view from NA players for many things in this game. You think macc sword sucked, STR sword is awesome because MOAR DMG, but that's YOUR point of view, not theirs.

If you ever get into their community, read their forums, talk with them, do events with them(events that needs communication, not just EXP pt), you will see that the way they do stuff is very different from NA players.

I've pt with JP players with very good skill, and pt with a lot of NA players that just sucked, sucked to a point I don't know what to say(not in terms of gears, but skill and team work). Saying NA player>JP player is obviously biased. Both side has good players and bad players. The reason why you think NA players are better is probably because you're in NA community, and play with more NA players, so you have higher chance to play with good NA players.


How did a thread about who the dev team pays attention to suddenly burst out into a racism war?
People be racist. You're not going to change their minds and each side has them.

However, to my understanding JP players don't like playing with others because they view EU and NA players to be very inefficient. This is why I always wanted to go to a JP party back in the day, because they always had the best exp/hour, though they were INCREDIBLY boring. NA parties were more fun, but rarely accomplished as much as JP.

Though they are generally pretty poor at gearing themselves, you must admit.

It won't be boring if you chat with them, if you can speak their language. If you pt with anyone but dont' talk, of course it's boring. It has nothing to do with JP or NA, just language/culture barrier.

A lot of JPs dislike NA because they think NA sucked(much like how NA thinks JA sucked), that NA always like to epeen etc. For example, they may think NA WAR always /SAM and refuse to /NIN sucked, because it's just epeening. Much like how NA think JP sucked because they geared differently(and sometimes don't gear swap) and not aiming for good dmg etc.

From what I've seen, NA players value personal performance more, you're awesome if you can cure a lot on WHM, or parse high on DD, while JP players has more defensive/supportive play style and value team work more. Instead of parse No.1 and do most dmg, they'd rather not create too much trouble for their team mate. You think their gear sucked because they don't care as much as you do, pretty simple.

It's really just different point of view, but you're right, no one can change each other's mind. Just like how you think JP sucked, JP players will continue to think NA players sucked too, it's not gonna change. So let's just accept the fact that we're different from each other.

I consider myself have more NA play style/point of view, but I do respect their point of view and don't think my point of view/playstyle is superior. Sometimes when I get a chance to pt with them(rarely, since I don't speak their language), I usually had good time because the pt(let it be EXP, EG events, or mission fights) usually worked very well and efficently, even as a /shout pt. While most of the NA /shout pt sucked way more.

I don't mind if they want to be JP only. They can't speak my language, I can't speak theirs. No point to team up with them if we can't communicate.

[Economizer]

Sure thief gets a garanteed spot in the alliance or party. It's awesome because tagging the mob once and going afk is really damn fun.

What? No Accomplice spam?

[Xellith]

I wouldnt mind an ability for thf that would re-roll the loot pool refreshing the items from the last monster killed as long as I got the killshot.

THF 1 killshot + kirin
You Find a Wind Crystal on the Kirin
FUUUUUUUU

/ja "Corpse Search" <me>

Searching the Kirin has revealed a trove of items!
You find a Wind Crystal on the Kirin
You find a Kirin's Pole on the Kirin
FUUUUUUUU

Still wont fix the problems inherent with thief - but its still something I'd love to play around with.

[FrankReynolds]

Sure thief gets a garanteed spot in the alliance or party. It's awesome because tagging the mob once and going afk is really damn fun.
It will be interesting to parse my CC drops vs Carabosse drops (for empy mats) as I kill Cara Thf/Nin + Whm/Sch and will be killing CC Rdm/Blm + Whm/Thf.

But this isn't about thief. It's about SE ignoring the non-japanese community on certain issues, and ignoring everyone on other issues. The only reason I bring up Thf, Drg and Rng all the time is because those are the forums I follow, and the infomation I can gather first hand instead of having to interpret other jobs' complaints which I could get wrong.

On topic, I have also found that the questions being answered by the Reps are all from the JP forum, and that they generally base tweaks on feedback from there.

[Volkai]

btw, "ignorant americans", there is no holiday weekend in Japan this week. I've searched on google for the past 10 minutes. Labor Day is celebrated on the first monday in Sept in the USA and Canada...not sure about other countries, didnt check. But Japan definately has no holiday this weekend.
However, American employees of SquareEnix that work in America probably have the day off anyways. Because they, you know, work in America. Just like I have the day off as an American employee of a multinational company based in India (which I'm pretty sure also does not celebrate Labor Day.)

The home nationality of the company you work for does not determine everything about that company. Often what country you actually work in matters just as much.


On topic, I have also found that the questions being answered by the Reps are all from the JP forum, and that they generally base tweaks on feedback from there.
Oh jee, I wonder if maybe that's because all forum Reps, regardless of nationality, get their information from the same Dev Team.

[FrankReynolds]

Oh jee, I wonder if maybe that's because all forum Reps, regardless of nationality, get their information from the same Dev Team.
Yes, the dev team that only listens to Japanese requests. Hence the angry thread. your a little slow. Go have some coffee.

[AldielQuetz]

Eric... Come on man... It was supposed to read >doesn't<....

You seem to be getting angry and taking this all personally, which with the typo is semi-understandable but... Not really.


"The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be true but unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise unrepresentative of typical cases."

Being ignored by the development team is 100% representative of typical cases. This is our situation on the NA forums:

1. We post.

2. We wait.

3. We get disappointed.

What I said, is not cherry picking, it is something strange that I chose to share due to relevance, that's it man.

Sorry about the typo^^

[Sparthos]

What's needed is an NA resident in Japan on the payroll acting as a liaison between the devs and the good people of these forums. This person could take pictures with the devs, sit around a large table negotiating for NA ideas to be implemented, and be that annoying western presence that reminds everyone that NA players exist!

Naturally, I nominate myself to be this liaison. I'll be waiting for my plane tickets.

[Volkai]

Yes, the dev team that only listens to Japanese requests. Hence the angry thread. your a little slow. Go have some coffee.
Your ad hominem attack is pointless. I was addressing a different issue. Additionally, I have had my coffee and it finished waking me up before I posted, so caffeine intake is also irrelevant at this tme.


Here is how the Player-to-Developer Communication Process works:
1) EU/JP/NA forum members post stuff (in several languages.)
2) EU/JP/NA Community Team members pass information on to Dev Team (in Japanese.) This takes longer for EU and NA Community Teams than it does for the JP Community Team due to the need to translate.
3) the Dev Team formulates replies (in Japanese.)
4) The EU/JP/NA Community Team members pass information on to the Forums (in several languages.) This takes longer for the EU and NA Community Teams than it does for the JP Community Team due to the need to translate.

I hope the clarifies any confusion or misunderstanding regarding how long it takes for information to be disseminated and why it may seem as though the JP Forums get information before the NA/EU forums or why it may seem as though the information the NA/EU forums receive is a copy of what the JP forums receive.

[FrankReynolds]

Your ad hominem attack is pointless. I was addressing a different issue. Additionally, I have had my coffee and it finished waking me up before I posted, so caffeine intake is also irrelevant at this tme.


Here is how the Player-to-Developer Communication Process works:
1) EU/JP/NA forum members post stuff (in several languages.)
2) EU/JP/NA Community Team members pass information on to Dev Team (in Japanese.) This takes longer for EU and NA Community Teams than it does for the JP Community Team due to the need to translate.
3) the Dev Team formulates replies (in Japanese.)
4) The EU/JP/NA Community Team members pass information on to the Forums (in several languages.) This takes longer for the EU and NA Community Teams than it does for the JP Community Team due to the need to translate.

I hope the clarifies any confusion or misunderstanding regarding how long it takes for information to be disseminated and why it may seem as though the JP Forums get information before the NA/EU forums or why it may seem as though the information the NA/EU forums receive is a copy of what the JP forums receive.

OK, first of all they get more information, but that is not really the topic.

The topic at hand is that when
3) the Dev Team formulates replies (in Japanese.)
4) The EU/JP/NA Community Team members pass information on to the Forums it is information in response to the japanese forums. They are not responding to us directly. They are just posting the responses to the JP forums in English.

[Gokku]

What's needed is an NA resident in Japan on the payroll acting as a liaison between the devs and the good people of these forums. This person could take pictures with the devs, sit around a large table negotiating for NA ideas to be implemented, and be that annoying western presence that reminds everyone that NA players exist!

Naturally, I nominate myself to be this liaison. I'll be waiting for my plane tickets.

THIS is actually the best thing they could do. its what CAPCOM did with monster hunter after tri wasn't as big of a hit as they had hoped , the monster hunter fan-base has been begging capcom to release portable 3rd in english for over a year now. Eventually they hired the guy who ran a MH fan site made him public liaison and hes been fighting for the community ever since. hes very commonly on 2 different monster hunter podcasts and holds contests via the MH facebook / fourums / podcasts. I vote Starcade as public liaison , i could see it now he'd kick in a door with a baseball bat break a dev hands make it an international incident and then we would get our questions answered out of fear.

[Volkai]

What's needed is an NA resident in Japan on the payroll acting as a liaison between the devs and the good people of these forums. This person could take pictures with the devs, sit around a large table negotiating for NA ideas to be implemented, and be that annoying western presence that reminds everyone that NA players exist!

Naturally, I nominate myself to be this liaison. I'll be waiting for my plane tickets.
Basically we already have this. It's called the Community Team. Do I need to go hunt up exactly what their job is for you?

[Tohihroyu]

"私たちはあなたの前にピアノを得た！ w"

"私たちはあなたの外国人よりもより良いものを得た w"

"我々はまだ直接支払うことになる！wwwwwww!"

"レッツMPK以外の日本人選手は＆その上にそれを責める！w ＼(*^▽^*)/ "

I could go on~ (probably broken...as I used google translate)

Anyway unless you use Japanese text & NOT Romaji 9 times out of 10 they will ignore or laugh at you (my guess they might assume someone typing in Romaji is an otaku?) I have met a few "nice" Japanese players but its usually the ones who know English. But most of the time can't really blame the Japanese for being "jerks" after all 99% of the Non Japanese player-base relies on third party tools, while it seems most of the Japanese players play on PS2, tis why I laugh when JP beat the NA bot claimers & the NA spaz out "THE JP STOLE OUR MOB Q_Q"

[Luvbunny]

When you create a game that is marketed to a global consumer, you would think that SE should create a content that would appeal to the masses instead of making it "japan" centric.... In the last 10 years, they should at least learn and perhaps create a separate servers and migrate those "japan" account to its own server. With abysea now the rift that separating the japan player from the "english capable" players are even wider - you no longer need a bunch of people to get things done - so you don't really have to groups with strangers. What SE should do is to make magian trial give you bonus on completion, say 2-3 people get a +1 bonus in completion and 4-6 people get +2 bonus in completion, meaning if you come with 2 people, when you kill one mob, it counts as two. This will encourage people to team up regardless since it will benefits them.

[FrankReynolds]

Basically we already have this. It's called the Community Team. Do I need to go hunt up exactly what their job is for you?

Unfortunately you are correct. Too bad that either the Devs ignore them, or they are not properly conveying it (who knows what it is).

[Coldbrand]

Yes, the dev team that only listens to Japanese requests. Hence the angry thread. your a little slow. Go have some coffee.

tee hee :rolleyes:

[Nebo]

You know what, I'd like THF to get a bunch of TH boosting stuff. Can't argue with 2/2 Emp drops every time.

As long as THF has TH, they are guaranteed a spot in a party, and that is balance is it not?

No one is denyng that Treasure Hunter is desired for events that Treasure Hunter can be useful for.

But to say that TH will always guarantee a spot in a party is really not true, as there are a lot of events where TH is not useful at all:


Like the New voidwatch system

The new Battlefields they added....or really any battlefield where things drop in a chest after the battle (ENM, ANNM, BCNM, KCNM etc etc)

Any mission/storyline boss fight.


But also you have to look at how very marginalised Treasure Hunter is these days. Every single endgame event they have added recently has some sort of retarded proc system that is neccessary for getting things to drop.

Abyssea:

You are farming Turul and you have a friend that can either come MNK during blunt time or THF...which job do you bring to get better drops?

You are farming seals and +2 items and you have a friend that can come BLM/BRD or THF...which job do you bring to get better seal drops?

The only real drops THF is absolutely irreplacable on are EMP upgrade items inside abyssea.

It is true that these weakness triggers stack with Treasure Hunter but they are all much STRONGER than Treasure Hunter and I whole heartedly disagree with that.

Also, several other jobs have or are getting relevant tiers of TH: RNG, BST, BLU...such that only the poeople that don't understand how very small the increase is from TH2 to TH10 would ever take a THF main over one of these jobs or WHM/THF for the sole purpose of TH.

So do people that play and understand THF feel that it is balanced because of TH?

Hell no.

Edit:

Although I do agree that I would like to see THF get a bunch more TH boosting abilities:

I'd like to see the chance to raise TH level be based on the damage that the THF does: on melee hits, SA/TA and weaponskills. This way, a level 90 mule with 3 pieces of gear could not replace me.

I would rework Steal and Mug to raise TH effectiveness level instead of stealing useless garbage.

I would then tie this to a damage boost system for the THF based on current TH level on the mob (that way we can use TH even on mobs that it really isn't useful for)

Variations of this idea have been flowing around the THF forums for a bit now. I'd really likw to see them do something like this.

[Zarchery]

Oh boy this old chestnut again. Maybe it isn't racism that's motivating requests for JP only. Maybe it's that people don't like working around a language barrier in a situation which requires socialization and communication. But I'm sure the victim mentality isn't going to let you comprehend the idea that maybe, just maybe, you are not the sterling and wonderful person who everyone wants to be around. People who cry "Japanese are racists because they won't party with us!" remind me of the creepy guy who hits on the hot woman, and when she shoots him down, he says "She must be a lesbian!"

As per the original topic, the SE community representatives have been incredibly open and accessible in communicating with us. Did I just dream all those response by Camate and his associates that are tagged with the dev tracker?

[Zatias]

JP and EN people can't get along better because of PS2 limitations! ;P

[AldielQuetz]

You didn't dream them, but where did the comment about Blast Arrow come from for RNG... THE JP FORUMS... The concerns in all languages are somewhat similar, it's the oddballs that tell you where they are getting their info from.

[Catmato]

You do know that 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, & 12 > 2 right?

You do know that !! > 12 right?

[Leonlionheart]

You do know that !! > 12 right?

I can stagger Nidhogg?

[Catmato]

No, but you can stagger anything worth killing.

[Miiyo]

I think it's about time English players start realizing peak server population is during JP hours. More people playing = more money. I'd listen to the majority of my player base if I were in business.

How many original good ideas have been spawned here on the server really? Most of all the posts here are criticizing things that have been added. I can easily say 80% of posts doing so don't offer any ideas... GOOD ideas, on what can make whatever they're complainging about, better.

[Dallas]

you're right, we should only expect that no results be shown in the product we've invested thousands in, we should only be so lucky as to see another dream bell update

how could we be so blind?

I have seen at least 10 of my requests implemented. Either I have a clone Japanese player, or I'm effective where this thread is not. You do not want to assume that more than one of me exists. Too many people depend on the assumption that I alone seek my particular goal:

1) Haste gear for pets. Item #1 released with mini-expansion hat.
2) Reworded my request: Combined haste for pet/owner for all pet jobs. Item #2 slated for this update. Stats identical to request, placed in a more advantageous gear slot (I was willing to replace item #1). Thank you, SE.
3) Enmity tool for SMN slated for this update. Yet to be seen, but the developers have identified it.
4) Spirit Taker MP recovery independent of damage dealt, implemented in Myrkr. Put on a weapon that people who use Spirit Taker would want.
5) Spirit Taker 100% accuracy, implemented in Myrkr.
6) Nerfing of Ducal Guard atma without banning anyone, namely me.

General requests that are too common to credit solely to me:
7) Convert for SMN, implemented in Elemental Siphon.
8) Gear to buff Magical BP Rage.
9) Avatar auras, implemented (poorly) with Favors.
10) Better range on wards.

And in fairness, the following requests were "ignored." I fought hard for all 5 of these:
1) Staves and wands moved to magic ranged weapons, dealing elemental/magical damage based on INT. No change to Poles/Clubs.
2) Staff/wand stances (dmg to mp conversion/stoneskin)
3) Spirits giving the SMN their spell list, as per SCH arts. Fiends = tier 2 spirits that mimic the SMN, per Campaign NPCs.
4) Removal of Favor penalty. Fixing the "reset bug."
5) DNC buffs affecting pets.

Just because SE isn't listening to YOU, doesn't mean they aren't listening. Notice that EASY ideas are implemented, hard ones need to be amazing.

[Yugl]

Oh, so you're to blame for making SE believe most thieves want a heap more TH boosting shit when really they want the opposite because having TH is seen as the main reason we can't have other nice things!

So you want TH degraded? Got it.


Jokes aside, in the end Yugl, SE ignore a LOT of stuff on the forums. This topic is trying to provoke a response and change it so they do listen more. Are you against them concidering more of our suggestions?I don't care about the number of suggestions they take; I care about the quality of the suggestions they take. Whether coming from a JP, NA, or EU, asking for Tactical Parry is stupid. Whether coming from JP, NA, or EU asking for RDM melee enhancements is stupid. Quality trumps origins.


Are you against them acknowledging the players more than they are already?Isn't that contradictory to your opening post in which you state SE has listened carefully, but only to JPs based on ???? evidence?



Are you happy with them completely ignoring Rng/Cor ammo issues? Or Thf's abilities (Despoil, mug, steal) being 90% worthless? Yeah, they shouldn't do everything on this forum of course, but there are a lot of good ideas, and a lot of feedback about certain issues.1. I'm content with SE leaving useless abilities for later revision: No idea what you're talking about with the first. I'm content with a few abilities being worthless for the time being and saving them as upgrade options for 99. You complain about that, but ignore the fact that other classes have multiple problems like that. Ancient Circle and Dragon Breaker, for example, though well aligned with the lore (Much like Steal and Mug) are useless in 90% of circumstances. WAR's Defender is quite useless given the playstyle of WAR. PLD's Holy circle, cover, and Splenchur are true to the lore, but useless. Nevertheless, if SE is working around existing engine limitations, it's smarter to reserve fixes for level 99.

2. THF's player base is internally contradictory: Some complained about RNG and BST gaining access to higher tiers of TH. Now you're telling me that the player base neither cares about nor wants enhanced TH capabilities. I even had one player (Nemo?) argue that he was in agreement with me that TH functions should be enhanced and that no one in the THF forums complained about THF's DD capabilities in comparison to other melees. However, Aura Steal updates readily fall within that realm and much of the complaints were a comparison of THF's DD capability to WAR.

3. Since roles are hierarchical, it's best to consider classes in relation to that: It's very difficult for SE to make classes equal without blurring the distinctions between them. Hence, given any role, you can typically map out classes in accordance:

Healer
Class 1
Class 2
Class 3

Melee
Class 1
Class 2
Class 3

Nuker
Class 1
Class 2
Class 3

Tank
Class 1
Class 2
Class 3

TH
Class 1
Class 2
Class 3

On this list, THF is class 1 under TH. Of course, your place on the list isn't the only criteria when evaluating classes. You then need to consider the scale between classes. A couple lessons to take away from this:

1. Since there are so many DDs, it's no surprise that SE maintains THF's lousy DD capacity. The list doesn't end at 3 for melee; it ends are roughly 10-12 including THF. While THF need not make the bottom of this list, it is going to sacrifice a tremendous amount of DD potential because the list is so large. If it were only 1-2 melees, it wouldn't be a problem, but that's simply not the case. In fact, if you think about it, driving THF towards this realm is utterly stupid.

2. The TH system has been underdeveloped. I would be disenfranchised if an melee revolved around 5 pieces of gear, but I wouldn't be so foolish as to attribute the problem to my healing capabilities. Similarly, THF's problems are indicative of a faulty TH system. More TH+ is better than less TH+ and that's it. It would be as if ATT were the sole modifier of melee damage. It would be as if healing skill were the sole modifier for cures with the only spell being cure I-IV. Note that this is not resolved via stupid complaints about Aura Steal's potency/shared recast timer.

3. There is no restraint on THF switching from TH to any other role. When changing from tank to melee, THF gives up a portion of melee potential in concurrence. When SCH changes from nuker to healer, they forego all of their nuking benefits and even take on disincentives. THF experiences no such gap when applying TH and that goes along with (2) and THF's problematic TH system.

4. In conjunction with a developed system, THF needs gear to accompany it. Simple TH+ gear is old and remnant of a non-dynamic system. If SE can think of gear such as "Enhances rate of TH building" or "Enhances the drop rate of rare items" that require more than "Equip, hit, and desist." you'll enjoy the class more.



When you have multiple-page long topics about perticular issues in which almost every poster is pretty much in agreement with eachother, yet it's completely ignored or responded with "passed it on to the dev team, but haven't heard anything", do you think that's ok?I've seen multi-pages on RDM and SMN melee. I'm content if SE ignores these. Popularity of a thread does not mean the ideas encased are necessarily good.

[Nebo]

THF's player base is internally contradictory: Some complained about RNG and BST gaining access to higher tiers of TH. Now you're telling me that the player base neither cares about nor wants enhanced TH capabilities. I even had one player (Nemo?) argue that he was in agreement with me that TH functions should be enhanced and that no one in the THF forums complained about THF's DD capabilities in comparison to other melees. However, Aura Steal updates readily fall within that realm and much of the complaints were a comparison of THF's DD capability to WAR.

Did you mean me?

The only reason THF's are complaining about other jobs getting TH is because it has been the reason shoved down our throats for a long time of why will remain and should be a weaker job.

ANd if you do mean me, I never said this:


I even had one player (Nemo?) argue that he was in agreement with me that TH functions should be enhanced and that no one in the THF forums complained about THF's DD capabilities in comparison to other melees.

Every conversation about THF DD capabilities is in comparison to other melee jobs. I said that no THF was arguing that they wanted to be on the same level as any of the top tier DDs. But we are saying that the gap is currently TOO LARGE, especially given how little an advantage Treasure Hunter III+ actually affords us in comparison to other jobs that get TH2+, ANY job/THF, or jobs with better abilities to proc weakness triggers.

Treasure Hunter is not a reason to leave THF in such a weak state. Especially when weakness triggers, battlefields and Voidwatch make Treasure Hunter very marginal at best or totally useless.

[Ophannus]

Ever consider that some of the replies about updates weren't from the NA forum or JP forum but came from the French or German forums?

[noodles355]

For example, they may think NA WAR always /SAM and refuse to /NIN sucked, because it's just epeening. It's not about epeening. War/Sam has much better survivability than War/Nin when you're tanking. And that's from someone who 2boxes KI NMs War+Whm. I tried both War/Nin and War/Sam, and while /Nin has extra red procs, /Sam is just so much better overall.

What? No Accomplice spam?Yes, that is a very good idea. I will accomplice someone every minute who is generating a lot of hate. It's such a brilliant idea because I have no way to remove the CE I've built up by spamming the ability.

You didn't dream them, but where did the comment about Blast Arrow come from for RNG... THE JP FORUMS... The concerns in all languages are somewhat similar, it's the oddballs that tell you where they are getting their info from.This.

Regarding thf. Let me put it this way. TH is the only thing that affects 2nd empy mat drop. War/Sam + Whm/Thf can average more empyrean mats over the same period of time. The faster killing and faster red procs on KI NMs outweighs the slight increase you get from going from TH2 to TH7-9 (You don't get more than that solo tanking on thf).

Also, I'm not sure why you like to continually bring up that the OP only mentioned SE listening to JP players when my posts since then have said it's either one of "Not listening to non-JPs enough" or "not listening to everyone enough".

Yes, I agree with you a lot of the shit on english forums is shit. But as I have said there is also a lot of very relevant and good feedback and suggestions that are getting completely ignored. Random little things like Blast Arrow fix on the japanese forum gets a dev team fix, yet the hugely more important ammo concerns splashed over the cor and rng forums on the english forums aren't even concidered?

[Saefinn]

Ever consider that some of the replies about updates weren't from the NA forum or JP forum but came from the French or German forums?

Because France and Germany don't exist, they're actually an elaborate government conspiracy. I've been to Germany, even lived there for 2 years, met many Germans and I can confirm that they aren't real. I suspect it's the same for France and the French.

I can understand people's problem with what comments SE pick up on, but I've often put it down to SE taking ideas they think are good as opposed to what the player base actually wants. Perhaps SE are racist or favour where they make the most money, but who knows, the Japanese might be having issues too. I wish I finished learning Japanese. :P

[Yugl]

Did you mean me?

The only reason THF's are complaining about other jobs getting TH is because it has been the reason shoved down our throats for a long time of why will remain and should be a weaker job.

The only reason you complain perhaps, but then I'm not talking about you then, am I?


ANd if you do mean me, I never said this:BULL. SHIT. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11492-Screwed-again-Proposed-THF-job-adjustments.?p=154493&viewfull=1#post154493

What I said in that thread:


Lack of difference between two people with TH6 is a fault of the TH augment system more than THF's general melee capabilities.To which you responded:


OK, no you aren't, you are agreeing with me. Did you read that post you quoted?

This is a fallacy. You don't get an equal comparison when playing with individuals. You get the guy that maybe WS's at ~180% if he remembers to. Doesn't eat proper food. Might not have a clue how to land his procs clean. Does he have the combat skills leveled, with the weapons to trigger all the weaknesses his job can? Is he flexible? Does he know how to react to various situations? Does he even have PDT/MDT sets if things go south?

Obviously this is is gear dependant, but you are only making my point here. It's about multiple gear swaps for many different situations with the knowledge and skill to use them with appropriate timing. It is an active process that takes a bit of knowledge, skill, rare gear collection.

Applying TH is non of that. It is a passive trait. All the pieces are stupid easy to obtain. No one cares what you do, or what other gear you have. As long as you have TH6. You can literally main hand a THF knife, nothing in the offhand, be wearing nothing but the hands and feet and still do your job the exact same. You either have TH6 or you don't. Beyond that, a discussion of player skill never enters the equation for bringing TH.



Every conversation about THF DD capabilities is in comparison to other melee jobs. I said that no THF was arguing that they wanted to be on the same level as any of the top tier DDs. But we are saying that the gap is currently TOO LARGE, especially given how little an advantage Treasure Hunter III+ actually affords us in comparison to other jobs that get TH2+, ANY job/THF, or jobs with better abilities to proc weakness triggers.

Treasure Hunter is not a reason to leave THF in such a weak state. Especially when weakness triggers, battlefields and Voidwatch make Treasure Hunter very marginal at best or totally useless.

Assuming SE can turn events around and fix THF's TH system, it's a very good reason to undermine their melee capabilities. Also, I'm going to call bullshit on you again. Here's a nice quote from that thread:


Stacked THF WS are not even as strong as WAR WS.

But, hey, I guess no one said that THFs want to be on the same level as other DDs because you said so!

[Nefertiri]

asking for RDM melee enhancements is stupid.

Maybe in your opinion. Personally, I don't agree with that kind of close-mindedness. Just because RDM melee is weak CURRENTLY doesn't mean it cannot be expanded upon in future updates. People's mindsets can change. I doubt more magic enhancements and what not, at this point, will do anything to make them more desirable over other more proficient and specialized spellcasters w/ the current endgame. All anything deemed "useful" (such as everyone seeming to want RDM get Cure V) would do is tip the unbalance-octagon back in their favor and away from the other mages again. Why not abandon the preconceptions that have been forced down our throats for the last 9 years, and embrace the idea of RDM being able to traverse a new direction entirely?

On topic: It's a shame if they really are ignoring us. Maybe they're just taking their time in digesting our ideas? Updates have been slow this year, likely due to the tsunami, and they've taken over half a year to raise the level limit from 90 to 95. I'd say time will tell if we really are being heard or not.

[Nebo]

The only reason you complain perhaps, but then I'm not talking about you then, am I?

lol you mentioned my name (even though you mispelled it).


BULL. SHIT.

I never said this: "no one in the THF forums complained about THF's DD capabilities in comparison to other melees."


Assuming SE can turn events around and fix THF's TH system, it's a very good reason to undermine their melee capabilities.

Assuming things like this will come from SE is going to give you anxiety issues and probably depression lol.


Also, I'm going to call bullshit on you again. Here's a nice quote from that thread:


Stacked THF WS are not even as strong as WAR WS.


I don't see your point?

Are you suggesting that THF wanting to be able to do spike damage when they use SA/TA with WS......that are on universal timers with positional restrictions.....is in ANY WAY a desire to be on the same level as a WAR's damage output?

Do you understand that this is impossible and why?


But, hey, I guess no one said that THFs want to be on the same level as other DDs because you said so!

Nah, I just know that no one is saying it because I read and post there daily. I have read every post on the THF forum multiple times. Considered, reconsidered, discussed and discussed again blah blah blah...the ideas presented by every poster....unlike you who just likes to troll our threads (badly) lol.

[Volkai]

There is nothing stupid about wanting (and asking for) RDM melee improvement.

There is something stupid about expecting RDM melee as it is to do well enough to match a dedicated melee job.

There is something stupid about expecting (as opposed to wanting and/or hoping) RDM melee to improve enough to match a dedicated melee job.

[Shiyo]

There's tons of stupidity about wanting RDM melee buffs, and even more when SE gives us them. The job needs many other enhancements first, melee is dead last of it's concerns.

[Volkai]

There's tons of stupidity about wanting RDM melee buffs, and even more when SE gives us them. The job needs many other enhancements first, melee is dead last of it's concerns.

Other people's desires or priorities not matching up with yours is not stupid. Or smart. It is independent of intellectual scale.

[Shiyo]

Incorrect, the job is suffering in many ways and needs buffs to make it viable in end game content. It's barely viable as it is outside abyssea, and inside it's completely USELESS.

Melee buffs don't help it perform better in any of the situations it's bad in, therefor stupid.

[Kojo]

No, I'm pretty sure I'm right. Japan players outright HATE and DESPISE English speaking players. NA/EU/ETC don't care who they're playing with at all.

Never seen ENGLISH ONLY! See JP ONLY! a LOT.

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but I'll explain "JP ONRY". In the Japanese version, due to the way Japanese is typed out, everything that is "Auto-Translated" has to be typed out entirely, THEN translated. This makes translation and communication slow and difficult. For example, a full PT of JP with 1 NA that is doing.. Let's say Kampe, It's the NA's first time on Kampe, and Kampe uses Death Scissors. In the time the JP are trying to tell the NA to turn away, the tank/melees die and it causes a wipe. It's not so much due to racism as it is due to inconvenience.

As for me, I've met more kind JP than unkind JP. In fact, I've met more dumb, unkind NA and EU than I have unkind JP. As others have said, people are inherently stupid, selfish, and stubborn and some don't grow out of it. Meeting 1 person who didn't grow out of it shouldn't forsake their entire race.

[noodles355]

If I recall from playing in an internet cafe in japan, the auto-translate works the same as it does in english. if you type the first few characters, it will give you the different options. Just like typing "Serp" will bring up "Serpentes Sabots" and "Serpentes Cuffs", typing "セルペン" and hitting tab will bring up "セルペンテスカフス" and "セルペンテスサボ"

[Manicora]

Just think, If even 1% of the NA ppl Played this game, thats what 200% more than JP? sadly :-) the needs of the few out weigh the needs of the many

[Yugl]

lol you mentioned my name (even though you mispelled it).

Not worth remembering.


I never said this: "no one in the THF forums complained about THF's DD capabilities in comparison to other melees."So you admit to advocating a revamp to the TH system, but then go on to say:

Assuming things like this will come from SE is going to give you anxiety issues and probably depression lol.Looks like you stepped on your own point!


I don't see your point? You said no THF asked for THF to be on the same level as top tier DDs, but fail to recognize such complaints as invoking that desire.



Are you suggesting that THF wanting to be able to do spike damage when they use SA/TA with WS......that are on universal timers with positional restrictions.....is in ANY WAY a desire to be on the same level as a WAR's damage output?For someone who talks about reading everyone's post, you sure as hell have trouble comprehending them. To demand that SATA WS output the same damage as WAR in the context of Abyssea is not the same as asking for spike damage when they use SA/TA WS. You already gain spike damage from those abilities via AGI/pDIF modification. WAR gains the same pDIF modification upon landing a critical hit. The difference between the two primarily stems from differences in total fTP and ATT bonuses. In other words, you're full of shit talking about adjustments to make them on par in WS and act like THF wouldn't be gaining an unfair advantage with respect to other DDs that do not share the benefits of WAR.


Do you understand that this is impossible and why?I wrote the book on why it's inadvisable. Do you understand why crying about Steal/Aura Steal/Mug at this point in the game is stupid?


Nah, I just know that no one is saying it because I read and post there daily. I have read every post on the THF forum multiple times. Considered, reconsidered, discussed and discussed again blah blah blah...the ideas presented by every poster....unlike you who just likes to troll our threads (badly) lol.Reading and comprehending are two different skills sir; apparently, you have difficulty with the latter if you've read posts such as the previously mentioned one. Also, I've posted in one THF thread. Of course, you're butthurt because people disagree with you on an issue. WAAAHHHH!

[Nebo]

So you admit to advocating a revamp to the TH system

Of course I do. Even in that post you quoted I advocated such a change several times. I am very dissapointed that our "TH skill" really only comes down to three pieces of easily obtained armour.

I'm a big fan of the one that is going around now that focuses on granting a damage bonus based on current TH level. TO that I would add: Change steal and mug to raise TH level by 1 and 2, resepectively, and tie the percent chance to raise TH effectiveness level to the damage the THF does with melee hits, SA/TA, WS etc....that way a level 90 mule with 3 pieces of gear could not replace me.....the better THF would be the best TH THF etc, etc.


Looks like you stepped on your own point!

lol, in what way exactly?


You said no THF asked for THF to be on the same level as top tier DDs, but fail to recognize such complaints as invoking that desire.

If you think that such a complaint is invoking a desire to be "on the same level" as any other heavy DD, I don't know what to tell you. But I'll say this...even if THF could do MORE damage than ANY other heavy DD with a stacked WS...we still wouldn't be able to come remotely close to any of their damage outputs.

Rub two brain cells together...try to make a spark, and see if you can figure out why that is....I'll wait.


I wrote the book on why it's inadvisable.

I don't believe you wrote a book.

[Zatias]

This thread's current point of interest has shifted fiercely and continuously from page 1 to now.

Oh well, at least it draws some attention ;/

[Darkwizardzin]

.....Well considering the adjustment thf's bully skill just got I think SE proved the OP wrong (just like the OP wanted).

[Melodicya]

Hello Everyone!

Unfortunately, this thread has veered off topic a number of times and it has been determined necessary to close at this time.

If you wish to review the Forum Guidelines, you can always do so at the link below:

FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines
http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1&tag=forum

Thank you for your understanding!