who got bill today by C&B [Archive] - FINAL FANTASY XI Forum

Korpg

09-03-2011, 01:03 AM

No it is not. This is a very smart move of Square Enix because it alleviates the cost of their billing department and heightens security for the customers (us) by moving the direct billing from the company to a third party provider with better security options that Square Enix has currently.

It is very expensive to have the type of security options that Click and Buy have, and since the volume of transactions are very different between the two companies (thousands of transactions per month for Square Enix vs Billions of transactions per month for Click and Buy) it would make sense for Click and Buy to have those security options that Square Enix wants. So, Square Enix contracts to Click and Buy for using these options at a reduced rate of having to pay for these options outright.

They also alleviate the cost of billing each customer per month by this new payment system by paying Click and Buy a small amount per customer (they already want the security options that Click and Buy offers, this is just a bonus for Square Enix) to help reduce the cost of keeping Final Fantasy XI continuing.

Long story short, this new system will help maintain FFXI for a longer period by this method than if they continued to use the same method as before.

Also, inb4SEhatersputtingtagsonthisthreadtellingmetogodieinafire.

Alhanelem

09-03-2011, 01:12 AM

People are overstating how bad and evil clickandbuy is, but you're also going a little overboard in how much you're loving SE.

Behemothx

09-03-2011, 02:23 AM

Korpg

09-03-2011, 03:04 AM

People are overstating how bad and evil clickandbuy is, but you're also going a little overboard in how much you're loving SE.

I have never professed love towards any company. I am stating what is considered Business Sense (since nobody here can understand or try to understand why companies do the things they do) and Business Logic (not to be confused with conventional logic, but it really is an understanding of how businesses work).

You have to realize that everything I have stated is an outsider's point of view in how and why things happen the way they happen.

Also, you have to understand that all of this explaining does not constitute the emotion of "love" at all. I do not wish to destroy the company, so why should I profess love towards it?

lol dude. Fine, you like SE so very much, everyone by now knows that. It does work fine for me and you but you have to understand that a lot of people are having issues with C&B.

I don't like a specific company either. People who are having issues with Click and Buy are having issues with Click and Buy, not Square Enix. Their grief should be focused on Click and Buy only. Go to Click and Buy's forums and/or directly contacting them to express your grief, not whine about it here.

You guys need to realize that explaining a situation to others who don't understand the situation is not the same as expressing love/hatred/emotion towards the situation. Words do not have emotion, why do you keep putting emotion into my words?

Greatguardian

09-03-2011, 06:46 AM

Tangent!

Does anyone have a working telephone number for Click and Buy Customer Service?

I locked myself out of the C&B account I made like a year ago for ff14 and can't log into it to update the old expired CC on there. Their website basically requires you to beat the crap out of it before it will give you a phone number for the US, and the one it does give (1-877-265-7821) has been disconnected. As of right now (just changed in the past 12 hours), that number no longer even appears on their website and they only give me an option to call a long-distance United Kingdom number.

I've emailed their support staff 3 times trying to get either a phone number or an account password reset, and they've done absolutely nothing about it.

I will not be anything remotely resembling happy if I find out that this company has closed its United States Phone Support Center almost immediately after brokering an arrangement with Square Enix that would add a couple hundred thousand United States accounts to their repertoire.

Edit: Pre-emptive derp, I already tried calling the Playonline Information Center and even SE doesn't have a phone number for Click and Buy nor any way to help with their bullcrap (aside from buying Crysta, which I refuse to do while it is only available in $5 increments)

Alhanelem

09-03-2011, 07:45 AM

(aside from buying Crysta, which I refuse to do while it is only available in $5 increments) That's pretty silly. It's not like you're going to lose any money or anything. You will make up for any "over" payment with an underpayment when the change is made. The net efffect is you paid $12.95 (or whatever you pay) for each month you used crysta.

You don't need to protest or boycott something that is being fixed.

Greatguardian

09-04-2011, 04:04 PM

I'm not boycotting anything. I simply refuse to pay $15 for a game that costs $12.95. Will I get the money back in 6 months? Sure. However, I'm not the type to loan a corporation money any that isn't accruing interest. It's bad business on my part. Letting that $2.05 (or the whole $12.95 this month if this isn't fixed) rot in a checking account does more for me than loaning it to any multimillion dollar corporation.

Alhanelem

09-04-2011, 04:57 PM

I simply refuse to pay $15 for a game that costs $12.95.You aren't paying $15 for a game that costs $12.95. Only the $12.95 worth of crysta is removed from your account, leaving the $2.05 in your account. Let's just say for a moment the change takes place now, you would only pay $10.90 for the month after. IT BALANCES OUT. YOU AREN"T PAYING MORE. Your refusal is based on a false premise.

15.00 + 10.90 = 12.95 + 12.95

rot in a checking account does more for me than loaning it to any multimillion dollar corporation. Unless you're going to keel over tomorrow because that $2.05 is sitting in your account, it has zero overall effect on you.

chintu

09-04-2011, 10:16 PM

it pay same amount my worry is over it pay same amount my worry is over:D:D

Saefinn

09-04-2011, 10:35 PM

I think you should select how much Crysta you pay, but it seems SE has gone for Microsoft's model of having the points system based on a set amount. I still buy Marketplace points on my XBox and what I have left over I leave until later. I set up Crysta on my account, call me mad but I think it's better than setting up a direct debit. As for Crysta going out, I haven't checked yet and there's maintainence on the SE Account Management System.

Alhanelem

09-05-2011, 02:02 AM

I think you should select how much Crysta you payThey are already planning to do this. Did you not read the thread?

Greatguardian

09-06-2011, 02:50 AM

You aren't paying $15 for a game that costs $12.95. Only the $12.95 worth of crysta is removed from your account, leaving the $2.05 in your account. Let's just say for a moment the change takes place now, you would only pay $10.90 for the month after. IT BALANCES OUT. YOU AREN"T PAYING MORE. Your refusal is based on a false premise.

15.00 + 10.90 = 12.95 + 12.95

Unless you're going to keel over tomorrow because that $2.05 is sitting in your account, it has zero overall effect on you.

$15 is removed from my Checking Account. I pay 15 American Dollars. What I am left with is 205 Square Enix Crysta, a Faux Currency that can only be exchanged one-way. I do not have $2.05. I have loaned that difference to Square Enix Co. for potential use in future purchases.

You seem to be completely oblivious to the actual point which is simply that I would be loaning Square Enix Co. money that is not accruing any interest. Would I pay the same amount over time? Sure. I know that. I've said that. You're jumping to conclusions and making yourself look like (more of) a tool. But the current Crysta system essentially forces me to loan Square Enix Co money. They accrue additional cash now rather than later with the promise to return the funds at a later date.

Does that make a little more sense? Imagine going to an ACE and asking for a payday loan with 0% interest. What do you think would happen? They'd laugh your ass right out of the store. What about walking into a Bank of America and asking for a Mortgage with 0% interest? Again, not going to happen. So why should I be willing to loan my money to a multimillion dollar corporation at 0% interest?

This is still completely missing the original question, being "Does anyone have a phone number for ClickandBuy United States Support?" I do not want to have to make an international call to the UK just to fix this.

Alhanelem

09-06-2011, 03:49 AM

$15 is removed from my Checking Account. I pay 15 American Dollars. What I am left with is 205 Square Enix Crysta, a Faux Currency that can only be exchanged one-way.So what?

Really. So what? Why does this matter? Unless you're planning to quit the game, that 205 square enix crysta is still going to get used. Nothing "potential" about it.

Again. IT DOESN'T matter. Loans? Interest? are you for real? Do you boycott microsoft and nintendo for having point systems? TWO FARKING DOLLARS. It wouldn't earn any interest in 1 month even if there was an interest rate. Then you start talkging about bank of america and mortgages and... yeah.

Your reason for protesting this is one of the most silly and absurd I've ever heard. YOu're blowing this totally out of porportion. Loans, interest... rofl. Square Enix is not a bank or a financial institution. Considering that SE already has the improvements in the works, your protest serves no purpose at all. Me? a "tool"? You're protesting because SE might hold two whole dollars between now and when they implement the exact payment option. I really can't imagine anything sillier than that.

The whole point is going to be moot after the change is made, which is why I'm saying all of this to you. I seriously want to know how Square Enix holding $2.05 of your money for less than 30 days and not paying you the diddly amount of interest bank accounts get these days going to harm or hurt you in any way. Are you living so paycheck to paycheck that $2 is going to be a matter of life and death? Because if that's so, you should probably cancel the game and put that $12.95 to better use.

(edit)Looking back, this post definitely went overboard. but making a deal about a miniscule "overpayment" that will later be made up for with an underpayment... It really is silly. I can't be the only one here who thinks so.

Greatguardian

09-06-2011, 12:54 PM

SE isn't the lending institution in this case, I am. I don't lend out money for free. I don't use Microsoft points or anything else for the same reason. If I'm going to buy something, I pay for it directly. Or, if the situation calls for it, I am loaned money (credit) and pay interest on it. I expect the same when the situation is reversed. When I loan people money in a business capacity, I expect interest to be paid on that loan.

Just because you don't seem to understand how corporate micro-loans work, doesn't mean I should have to sit here and explain to you why I choose not to do something that I find unethical.

Does it really matter that it's $2? Not really. Will I die without that $2? Nah. You don't empathize with the principle and that's fine. I don't expect anyone to. However, yes, you are coming off as a massive toolbag in this thread. I came here asking if anyone had a support phone number for ClickandBuy, because I was having issues with them, and you proceed to make a gigantic french shower out of yourself because I don't deal with corporate micro-loans? Over multiple posts, completely ignoring the repeated attempts to garner any real information about the original topic? Oh, and let's not forget the way you come into practically every thread that mentions ClickandBuy and talk about how they're "just not that bad gaiz".

I tell you what, if this company really did completely shut down their United States Phone Support Center right after adding thousands of North American customers to their portfolio, then they really are "That bad". Bro.

Korpg

09-06-2011, 09:46 PM

But Greatguardian, don't you know you are getting interest in the money you "loan" to SE?

The present value of $1 of an ordinary annuity (which applies in this case) for 1 month with today's rates (6%) is .99997

That means the future value of $1 in the next month is $.99997 today. SE is essentially paying you $.00003 interest for "borrowing" that money. You would have to loan them $100,000 to see $1 interest, however.

In other words, you are being anal about this whole situation.

Vivik

09-07-2011, 12:10 AM

So what?

Really. So what? Why does this matter? Unless you're planning to quit the game, that 205 square enix crysta is still going to get used. Nothing "potential" about it.

Again. IT DOESN'T matter. Loans? Interest? are you for real? Do you boycott microsoft and nintendo for having point systems? TWO FARKING DOLLARS. It wouldn't earn any interest in 1 month even if there was an interest rate. Then you start talkging about bank of america and mortgages and... yeah.

So you're trying to say over thousands of accounts and over the course of a month, SE is not earning interest off of that 2$? Did you grow up under a rock?

The point is SE is making a profit off of each payer that overpays each month. To say "well you get that back next month" or "it evens out in the end" is not the point.

Vivik

09-07-2011, 12:13 AM

Alhanelem

09-07-2011, 01:20 AM

So you're trying to say over thousands of accounts and over the course of a month, SE is not earning interest off of that 2$? Did you grow up under a rock?

The point is SE is making a profit off of each payer that overpays each month. To say "well you get that back next month" or "it evens out in the end" is not the point. You are delusional if you think they are "making a profit" off this and they originally did it this way TO make a profit. if they really drop the $2 in an interest bearing bank account (I'm quite sure that's not how large corporations invest their money) the amount of interest they'd gain is immesurably small. Deposit $2 in a brand new bank account and let me know when it grows to $10 ok? I'll probably be dead by then.

The number of people with leftover crysta balances together with their amounts results in a totally insigificant gain for them. It's not even measurable. You've established now you're protesting on principle, but it's a ridiculous principle because they gain so close to nothing from you that it may as well be nothing.

It's just amazing how ridiculous you can act over such a trivial issue that will become moot within a month or two.

and they could use the money today to invest in something with a larger return so yeah, you're wrong. Again, unless you are planning on quitting right now, they would get that $2 anyway, along with the other $10 when you pay next moth. it literally makes no difference whatsoever. $2 doesn't bring a large company like SE measurably closer to being able to invest more in a project.

The point is SE is making a profit off of each payer that overpays each monthThey are NOT making a profit off this "overpaying". They are NOT making a profit off this "overpaying". They are NOT making a profit off this "overpaying". Do you get it yet? It's not really even "overpaying" because the next month that overpayment is offset by an underpayment. The net gain for SE upon the release of the change to the system is ZERO. Z - E - R - O. You might have given them an extra $2.5 now, but then you get to give them less later. They gain NOTHING! NOTHING! Not ONE PENNY of "profit" (outside of what profit they normally make off your $12.95 of course...)!

Both you and GG are making a Mount Everest out of an anthill. The protesting should have stopped when they announced the change that was to make people happy. The fact that they said they would change the system in the first place should have been enough to stop this line of complaint.

Vivik

09-07-2011, 01:39 AM

You are delusional if you think they are "making a profit" off this and they originally did it this way TO make a profit. if they really drop the $2 in an interest bearing bank account (I'm quite sure that's not how large corporations invest their money) the amount of interest they'd gain is immesurably small. Deposit $2 in a brand new bank account and let me know when it grows to $10 ok? I'll probably be dead by then.

The number of people with leftover crysta balances together with their amounts results in a totally insigificant gain for them. It's not even measurable. You've established now you're protesting on principle, but it's a ridiculous principle because they gain so close to nothing from you that it may as well be nothing.

It's just amazing how ridiculous you can act over such a trivial issue that will become moot within a month or two.

Again, unless you are planning on quitting right now, they would get that $2 anyway, along with the other $10 when you pay next moth. it literally makes no difference whatsoever. $2 doesn't bring a large company like SE measurably closer to being able to invest more in a project.

They are NOT making a profit off this "overpaying". They are NOT making a profit off this "overpaying". They are NOT making a profit off this "overpaying". Do you get it yet? It's not really even "overpaying" because the next month that overpayment is offset by an underpayment. The net gain for SE upon the release of the change to the system is ZERO. Z - E - R - O. You might have given them an extra $2.5 now, but then you get to give them less later. They gain NOTHING! NOTHING! Not ONE PENNY of "profit" (outside of what profit they normally make off your $12.95 of course...)!

I swear it's like talking to a brick wall. The fact still remains. They are taking your money (no matter how small it is per individual) and doing with it what they please. This all before your money is represented with a product/service. Which is the point. To argue on how insurmountable or insignificant the amount is is moot. The point still stands.

I think it's delusional to think that a large corporation does not take the amount of money they can make off of the overages into consideration and just shows how much business sense you lack.

Oh and making any kind of money off of 2 dollars over the course of two months beats making it off of it for one month because you can make interest off of it's interest so yeah again, your lack of knowledge on investing money is pretty obvious.

Alhanelem

09-07-2011, 01:42 AM

I swear it's like talking to a brick wall. The fact still remains. They are taking your money (no matter how small it is per individual) and doing with it what they please.There is in effect ZERO difference between taking $15 now and taking $10 later vs taking $12.50 now and $12.50 later. You can't argue against this. The amount of money they gain is no different whatsoever.

To argue on how insurmountable or insignificant the amount is is moot. The point still stands.No, the point does not still stand. The point is destroyed by

1) the planned removal of the system, and
2) the insignificance. The harm to you is completely insignificant unless you quit playing before the change of the system. You have no point. You are just being a rotten apple, or crying over spilled milk, or whatever the best cliche phrase like that would be.

Vivik

09-07-2011, 01:44 AM

There is in effect ZERO difference between taking $15 now and taking $10 later vs taking $12.50 now and $12.50 later. You can't argue against this. The amount of money they gain is no different whatsoever.

You can make interest off of the interest gained from the month before, so you're wrong.

Alhanelem

09-07-2011, 01:48 AM

You can make interest off of the interest gained from the month before, so you're wrong. The amount of interest gain from that is mathematically insignificant.

Go ahead. Go to your bank right now, and deposit $15. Deposit $12.95 in another account. Next month, deposit $10 in the first account, and $12.95 in the second. The following month, check the balances. Any interest gain from the month before is offset by the smaller deposit made the next month. They do NOT gain anything from that unless you stop paying, so you're wrong.

Over time, it does not matter whether you deposit more money in the bank and less later versus depositing a constant amount both times.

Oh and making any kind of money off of 2 dollars over the course of two months beats making it off of it for one month because you can make interest off of it's interest so yeah again, your lack of knowledge on investing money is pretty obvious. No, actually, it's not. Your lack of understanding of basic math is more obvious.

1% interest:
$15 (deposit month 1) + 1% interest = $15.15 ; plus $10.90 (deposit month 2) = $26.05; +1% interest for month 2 = $26.31

$12.95 (deposit month 1) +1% interest=$13.0795; plus $12.95 (deposit month 2) = $26.289795; +1% = $26.55269295.

so, oh wait. Unless I did my numbers wrong somewhere, they actually get more money by paying $12.95 constantly, than by over then underpaying!

Vivik

09-07-2011, 01:54 AM

The amount of interest gain from that is mathematically insignificant.

Go ahead. Go to your bank right now, and deposit $15. Deposit $12.95 in another account. Next month, deposit $10 in the first account, and $12.95 in the second. The following month, check the balances. Any interest gain from the month before is offset by the smaller deposit made the next month. They do NOT gain anything from that unless you stop paying, so you're wrong.

My point still stands and no matter how significant you claim it to be. Profit is still profit. One account or thousands of accounts. It's still profit. 1 penny or thousands of dollars, it's still profit. Profit that is unrepresented by a product/service for the money. I know you still wont get it but that's ok, I'm sure everyone else does.

No, actually, it's not. Your lack of understanding of basic math is more obvious.

Resorting to flaming with nothing to back it up makes you look like a moron. Just saying.

Alhanelem

09-07-2011, 02:05 AM

I backed it up. Go read. Not that you backed up your claims that I know nothing of investments.

Vivik

09-07-2011, 02:09 AM

I backed it up. Go read. Not that you backed up your claims that I know nothing of investments.

I didn't need to backup that you know nothing of investments. You did it for me, which everyone can now see.

Alhanelem

09-07-2011, 02:11 AM

No, I didn't do it for you, which everyone can now see. In fact, I proved you wrong.

I have things to do, so I will now end this back and forth of Yes-uh! Nuh-uh! Yes-uh! Nuh-uh!

Karbuncle

09-07-2011, 02:19 AM

Thou has no hope in defeating The Order of the White Knights.

Edited*

Korpg

09-07-2011, 02:20 AM

and they could use the money today to invest in something with a larger return so yeah, you're wrong.

$2 is nothing. Not even worth investing. You have to look at the whole problem before you can answer the question.

1 month is nothing. Not even worth investing. Heck, T-Bills do not go below 3 months, and only have a much higher interest rate when sold in the millions, not singles. You can't buy a T-Bill under $1,000. Again, you have to look at the whole problem before you can answer the question.

Being anal about 1 month of letting SE have an extra $2 that you can deduct from your next month bill to pay the full amount (your next month's bill will be $2 cheaper, that is what I am saying) is not worth this agony that people are putting on.

Korpg

09-07-2011, 02:33 AM

I swear it's like talking to a brick wall. The fact still remains. They are taking your money (no matter how small it is per individual) and doing with it what they please. This all before your money is represented with a product/service. Which is the point. To argue on how insurmountable or insignificant the amount is is moot. The point still stands.

Lets assume the following then:

Everyone has to buy Crysta now. They only sell it in $5 amounts, but the cost to play this game is $12.95. Everyone has to buy $15 of Crysta to play this game this month. Everyone started out with 0 Crysta. After getting billed, everyone now has $2.05 in Crysta that they "supposedly can't get back from the company when they quit (another issue, lets concentrate on the problem at hand)".

Square Enix receives an extra $2.95 per person this month. You are right, everyone is getting screwed, mayhem ensues. Square Enix desides that you can pay for the exact amount per month for Crysta instead of using $5 increments. Everyone pays $10.90 in Crysta this month and $12.95 in Crysta each month afterwards.

Tell me, how is Square Enix getting a profit from all this? Remember, the present value of $1 for today's interest rate for one month is .99997, so about every $100,000 extra they receive, they get $1 interest. That means, for 1 month only, every 33,334 people they "overbilled" they get $1 extra in supposed interest (they still have to invest the money received to actually get interest, and there is no place in the world that sells interest for 1 month only). Is that really a supposed money making scheme? By their financials, they broke even because they received an extra $2.95 one month but lost $2.95 the next month afterwards, per person. The value of money fluctuates, so, unless the international interest rate exceeds 15% in the next month (it is currently about 6% worldwide average), this is a big risk for no rewards.

I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill here.

Vivik

09-07-2011, 02:38 AM

1% interest:
$15 (deposit month 1) + 1% interest = $15.15 ; plus $10.90 (deposit month 2) = $26.05; +1% interest for month 2 = $26.31

$12.95 (deposit month 1) +1% interest=$13.0795; plus $12.95 (deposit month 2) = $26.289795; +1% = $26.55269295.

so, oh wait. Unless I did my numbers wrong somewhere, they actually get more money by paying $12.95 constantly, than by over then underpaying!

Yes, you did your math wrong. You inflated your second equation by 1%

12.95 + 1% +12.95 +1% = 26.289795

15.00 +1% + 10.90 + 1% = 26.3105

You're still wrong, and suck at math.

Korpg

09-07-2011, 02:41 AM

You guys are both wrong, you are assuming a 12% interest rate singularity compounded.

Which is what we don't have at the moment. The actualities are 4-6% complex compounded.

Vivik

09-07-2011, 02:58 AM

You guys are both wrong, you are assuming a 12% interest rate singularity compounded.

Which is what we don't have at the moment. The actualities are 4-6% complex compounded.

For a savings account sure, but why would anyone invest their money into savings?

You're also missing the big picture here which is not a single person without their two dollars. We are talking about thousands of transactions of overages.

Alhanelem

09-07-2011, 04:19 AM

Yes, you did your math wrong. You inflated your second equation by 1%

12.95 + 1% +12.95 +1% = 26.289795

15.00 +1% + 10.90 + 1% = 26.3105

You're still wrong, and suck at math.
I made an error, doesn't mean I suck at math, and even with the error corrected, you're still wrong. It doesn't matter if you take the same amount each month or more one month and less the next. They get no greater return on what they take from you. 4 cents is nothing, even with such a huge interest rate.

If you're really so bent up over a few extra pennies for a corporation in a capitalism based economy, then you need to go fly somewhere where capitalism doesn't exist.

Meyi

09-07-2011, 04:26 AM

Square Enix receives an extra $2.95 per person this month. You are right, everyone is getting screwed, mayhem ensues. Square Enix desides that you can pay for the exact amount per month for Crysta instead of using $5 increments. Everyone pays $10.90 in Crysta this month and $12.95 in Crysta each month afterwards.
(...)
I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill here.

I'd like to think that the aggression people had towards the new billing system helped SE move in the right direction of buying exact crysta. As long as I can buy exact amounts I'm satisfied. Kind of wish they didn't need third party companies to do this, but hey, at least we got heard and that's what matters.

Korpg

09-07-2011, 05:10 AM

For a savings account sure, but why would anyone invest their money into savings?

You're also missing the big picture here which is not a single person without their two dollars. We are talking about thousands of transactions of overages.

Thousands of transactions, if that many, worth $2 each, all of which does not earn interest and will be "repaid" by a lower bill for those who did get charged $2 extra for one month. This is not a money making "scheme" as you so put it. This in fact increases nor decreases SE's bottom line, and in term does not increase or decrease the total amount of money you actually pay.

You are inconvenienced about $2, we understand. You are more concerned about money than most people, and you are more concerned about $2 than every single corporation in the world.

But you need to see the big picture instead of your dogmatic narrow view of reality.

Vivik

09-07-2011, 06:05 AM

It doesn't matter if you take the same amount each month or more one month and less the next. They get no greater return on what they take from you. 4 cents is nothing, even with such a huge interest rate.

The math does not lie man. It speaks for itself. I think it's funny how you can make fun of someone for "not being good at math" and mess it up yourself. You have fun with that.

The fact is 4 cents is still more no matter how you try and spin it. You're still wrong.

Vivik

09-07-2011, 06:14 AM

Thousands of transactions, if that many, worth $2 each, all of which does not earn interest and will be "repaid" by a lower bill for those who did get charged $2 extra for one month. This is not a money making "scheme" as you so put it. This in fact increases nor decreases SE's bottom line, and in term does not increase or decrease the total amount of money you actually pay.

You are inconvenienced about $2, we understand. You are more concerned about money than most people, and you are more concerned about $2 than every single corporation in the world.

But you need to see the big picture instead of your dogmatic narrow view of reality.

How do you know our money is not earning interest? Do you work for SE as some sort of investment banker? I find it funny how hell bent you and Analhelm are defending a corporation doing the public wrong.

Maybe SE will come out with an in game white chocobo for you guys to ride around on for being such great and loyal customers.

TybudX

09-07-2011, 06:30 AM

It's ok, Vivik, it's their $4.10... wait, it's our $635495.90!

Yeah, nobody in their right minds would invest that. Especially not a business.

Korpg

09-07-2011, 06:43 AM

How do you know our money is not earning interest? Do you work for SE as some sort of investment banker? I find it funny how hell bent you and Analhelm are defending a corporation doing the public wrong.

Because they only have that money for 1 month. Nobody, and I mean nobody gives out a note that is due in 1 month. If they are going to spend the money they "supposed" to have as overpayment from us, they are really using money from another account or from another source because the shortest term of lending anyone in the world does is 3 months (US T-bills).

In the short term (2 months) SE will not profit from this because the 1 month they have a little more money from people, people will spend a little less the next month.

Maybe SE will come out with an in game tinfoil hat for you guys to wear all over the time for throwing conspiracy theories about what they will use the money that they received and basically lost within a 60 day period.

Korpg

09-07-2011, 06:44 AM

It's ok, Vivik, it's their $4.10... wait, it's our $635495.90!

Yeah, nobody in their right minds would invest that. Especially not a business.

Assuming that they will get that much even, they will receive an extra $635,495.90 (using your example) this month but lose $635,495.90 in the next month, so they basically break even. And so do you!

Alhanelem

09-07-2011, 08:51 AM

The math does not lie man. It speaks for itself. I think it's funny how you can make fun of someone for "not being good at math" and mess it up yourself. You have fun with that.

The fact is 4 cents is still more no matter how you try and spin it. You're still wrong.
I'm not spinning anything. You're the one raging at the possibility of a company making a couple extra pennies. The funny part is you're complaining even though the cost to you is the same. So what if they earn 4 more cents on their investment when it didn't cost you anything? What if that 4 cents went to pay the dev team for 10 more seconds of work time? Would you still be complaining?

Why are you so adamantly, passionately against this when it doesn't hurt you? They are fixing the problem, there's no need to wait. I'm honestly pretty amazed that you'd choose C&B over crysta just because of this tiny, temporary issue.

I find it funny how hell bent you and Analhelm are defending a corporation doing the public wrong.How are they doing the public wrong? THEY HAVE ADDRESSED THE PLAYER'S COMPLAINTS ON THIS ISSUE AND ARE MAKING IMPROVMENTS. HOW is that doing us wrong? And what is it with you and large companies?

I'm not hellbent on defending them, you're hellbent on attacking them.

Greatguardian

09-07-2011, 09:59 AM

Analhelm, you don't seem to understand the difference between how the $2 affects the player, and how micro-loans affect the corporation. Does $2 mean anything to me? No. Telling me that the interest I'd gain on $2 is insignificant is, itself, a waste of time because it completely bypasses the point.

In case you just haven't lived long enough to really notice this about the world, when you have your money is just as important as, if not more important than, how much money you have. I could be unemployed without benefits/welfare for 11 months, 29 days and then win $1 million dollars in the lottery, or I could get a check for $83,333 direct deposited into my bank account every month (0% interest rate to be fair). Which one of these situations do you think would be better for me?

Gee. I'm going to go with the one where I'm not living on the streets with a trashed credit score and bankruptcy for $500, Alec.

The bottom line is not important. The fact that they are getting money early for nothing is important. What those micro-loans essentially add up to is free capital for the business. Have you ever heard the phrase, "You have to spend money to make money" before? Well, that's essentially what this boils down to. By generating additional free capital out of thin air, Square Enix is able to spend money before they otherwise would have had it, resulting in a greater profit for them. This profit could be the result of additional investment into stocks and other businesses, it could be the result of additional investment in their own projects, heck it could be the result of anything. The bottom line is that they are reaping additional profit for, essentially, nothing.

Additionally, because the transaction itself is simply a conversion of US dollars to faux currency, you (the lender) are not protected by typical lender's rights. You have no rights to collect on your loan at will. If you wish to collect, you have to do so in services offered by their company. Additionally, faux currency can be made worthless at any time. If Square Enix decided that they were discontinuing their Crysta service, they would not be contractually obligated to refund any money whatsoever to customers who had a remaining Crysta balance. Furthermore, another of the many important reasons that I refuse to deal in faux currency is that Crysta is not insured by the federal government or a primary lending institution. If Square Enix were to disappear tomorrow, your Crysta would disappear with it and never come back.

Do you think I don't realize that the bottom line for me may be the same? I'm not a Melee Summoner or anything. I simply disapprove of the entire concept of Crysta in principle, and refuse to deal in it whenever it would constitute a micro-loan.

Bottom line? I consider the entire practice unethical, no matter who does it. Does that mean I'm going to boycott SE? Hell no. I like their product, and I will pay for it as long as I am able to do so in a manner which I am comfortable with. However, I'm not going to subject myself to what is essentially a blatant bypassing of lender's rights. Gift Cards, Crysta, Microsoft Points, these are essentially corporations taking free loans from consumers. Give me free loans from corporations and maybe we'll talk.

By the way, anyone have any luck finding that phone number? I'd have figured someone, at some point, would have had to call C&B from the US for something :(

Sanjurio

09-07-2011, 10:23 AM

I love you GG, you are my hero.

Korpg

09-07-2011, 01:01 PM

The bottom line is not important. The fact that they are getting money early for nothing is important. What those micro-loans essentially add up to is free capital for the business. Have you ever heard the phrase, "You have to spend money to make money" before? Well, that's essentially what this boils down to. By generating additional free capital out of thin air, Square Enix is able to spend money before they otherwise would have had it, resulting in a greater profit for them. This profit could be the result of additional investment into stocks and other businesses, it could be the result of additional investment in their own projects, heck it could be the result of anything. The bottom line is that they are reaping additional profit for, essentially, nothing.

You have it wrong actually. Micro-loans are generally 3 month loans to the government in the form of Treasury bills and other liquid-able securities that can be easily converted into cash, not 1 time, 1 month "loans" from customers that end up being "repaid" (lower payment options for the next month, as in this case) that neither bears interest to the company in either future value or present value of the loans.

If they took the money being overpaid and put it into an interest bearing account, they are still taking their own money from other sources and not from this over payment, because the turnover to pay back us, the customers, is so quick that they are basically using their own money from their own bank account to make such a loan.

This is also not an ethical issue because there is no gain on either side, Square Enix is correcting the "issue" and, although this is not a normal business practice, neither side was hurt in either process and there will not be a repeat in this process. I think you are just throwing out "ethics" like people like to throw out "evil corporation" all the time. Neither you nor the general public understands anything about ethics nor business practices and effects, but want to feel important because "fighting against the machine" makes you feel good inside and accomplished in life, when in reality, you are still a peon in the eyes of actual people who create wealth in this world.

Greatguardian

09-07-2011, 01:32 PM

Did you really just wiki/google "Micro-loans" and quote it back to me?

I'm going to sleep, but I'll point out a few things before I do.

1) They are not paying us back. They are simply reducing their income on the subsequent month by increasing it on the current month. There is a huge difference. Think of it as a payday advance loan for a corporation.

2) Is anyone getting hurt directly by this? That depends on what scale you're looking at, and whether or not you factor in opportunity cost. Is one person being hurt by losing $2 one month and getting a discount the next? Not really. Do people, as a whole, lose out by essentially loaning out free money to a corporation who uses it to generate additional profit, and then not seeing any return on that profit? Yes.

3) Ethics is an overly simplistic word. Disingenuous is more appropriate.

4) Are you really trying to insinuate that they are not able to make a profit by having cash sooner rather than later? This is the whole reason that Gift Cards and faux currency systems exist in the first place.

Alhanelem

09-07-2011, 02:47 PM

In case you just haven't lived long enough to really notice this about the world, when you have your money is just as important as, if not more important than, how much money you have.If when you have $2 is important, then you probably have more important things to be spending your money on than this game.

And as an side note, you'd better stop intentionally mispelling my forum nick.

I consider the entire practice unethicalI don't consider the practice in the current context of how it applies to SE unethical.

You really seem to be getting a big whooosh right now. the whole reason this started was under the observation that SE decided to go about implementing a change to allow for exact payments with crysta. It was then stated by a certain someone that they would still refuse to use it until the change was implemented. I then proceeded to point out that with the change imminent, you would be able to permanently offset any "overpayment" with an underpayment after the system is implemented, and then pay exact from then on out. The harm to you is miniscule to zero, the additional profit to them is miniscule to zero, and as soon as the system changes over, it's like the fiasco never happened in the first place.

Especially considering their reaction to feedback from us, I really don't believe that anyone at SE was thinking "Hmm, how can we get a few extra pennies in our pocket? Oh, I got an idea! let's use this points system for our games, and continue to charge odd amounts and not offer the points in those exact amounts! That way we'll make way more money!" I think they implemented crysta in the spirit of it being useful to people who had problems paying with direct credit/debit under the poopy old system (and that it would be useful for more than just paying for the subscription fee for FFXI/V), and just did a poor job of implementing it. I maintain that their ethics were not out of place and that it wasn't part of some scheme to nickel and dime you. Buuuut, that's just my opinion.

If you want to talk about ethics, under your line of thought, capitalism as whole is entirely unethical- this practice is not any more or less so than any other aspect of the captialist system.

This is the whole reason that Gift Cards and faux currency systems exist in the first place. Not gift cards, no. Why? because you would have bought some kind of gift anyway, and they would have gotten their money right away anyway. Gift cards do not get them money significantly faster- the only time saved for them is the time you spend deciding what gift you're getting. I can buy a $50 game from Gamestop for my sibling's birthday, or I could buy a $50 gift card and let him pick the game. Either way, Gamestop gets my money at the same time.

Shadowsong

09-07-2011, 06:45 PM

My god do people really not know how investments work? GG spelled it out perfectly, like an economics professor and they still White Knight

Karbuncle

09-07-2011, 08:36 PM

My god do people really not know how investments work? GG spelled it out perfectly, like an economics professor and they still White Knight

These people would literally praise SE on their knees if SE implemented a payment system that has a guy come to your house, Kick you in your genitalia, and steal your credit card, simply because SE took the time to hire someone to do this, and how this will revolutionize the payment industry because now they created thousands of jobs for people to come kick them in the junk.

Korpg

09-07-2011, 11:34 PM

Did you really just wiki/google "Micro-loans" and quote it back to me?

No, there are people out there who actually learned this stuff in college. Believe it or not, not everyone slept/smoked their way through school, like some posters which I will not name.

1) They are not paying us back. They are simply reducing their income on the subsequent month by increasing it on the current month. There is a huge difference. Think of it as a payday advance loan for a corporation.

A loan is something you pay back. You even admitted that they are not paying anything back. So, you are backtracking on your own argument and not realizing how silly you sound. Neither side is receiving any interest, and the present value of this supposed $2 that everyone is losing is so minimal, it would not affect the economic reality of either party, even when one of the parties is getting $2 from a lot of people and losing the same $2 from the same people the next month. There is neither gain nor loss on anyone. You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

2) Is anyone getting hurt directly by this? That depends on what scale you're looking at, and whether or not you factor in opportunity cost. Is one person being hurt by losing $2 one month and getting a discount the next? Not really. Do people, as a whole, lose out by essentially loaning out free money to a corporation who uses it to generate additional profit, and then not seeing any return on that profit? Yes.

If $2 is a real opportunity cost to you, then why are you playing this game? Nobody should be hurt by missing $2 in 1 month and essentially gaining $2 in the next month. If you are, you need to get your priorities straight.

As for seeing a return on that profit, how would you like your slice of a penny to be? Somewhere in the middle or would you like to see the edge? Want Lincoln's nose? Can satisfy 23 other people with a chunk of Lincoln's nose at the same time, you know that right? Point being, the supposed interest in today's rates for 3 month T-bills for $2 is so minimal, you are basically getting nothing from it at all. You want SE to take the supposed $24 in interest (yes, I calculated it, sue me) they received from this super micro loan that doesn't exist with today's interest rates (interest rates were calculated by the present value of $1 for 1 month at 4% (T-bills went down yesterday, by a lot) for an ordinary annuity).

In other words, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. And standing on top of it and placing your flag and shouting "This is my mountain, and you shall call me king of the mountain and I shall not smite you on top of my mountain."

3) Ethics is an overly simplistic word. Disingenuous is more appropriate.

I'm actually glad you didn't use fraudulent or deceitful, because you would be implying that SE planned this whole thing out just to supposedly earn $24 in supposedly interest from inflation rate fluctuation and possible currency fluctuation.

4) Are you really trying to insinuate that they are not able to make a profit by having cash sooner rather than later? This is the whole reason that Gift Cards and faux currency systems exist in the first place.

Gift Cards and Faux Currency systems exist to tie money into one place. In other words, to have spend your money on a company before you even received the product. The only time that a corporation would receive money for free is when the currency expires and no longer becomes valid, which in both cases, generally 2 years after purchase. Now, if they used LIFO system of determining which cent gets paid for which service/product, then yeah, I would agree with you on your whole "anti-corporation" attitude you have. But they don't. They use the FIFO system, which means that the latest amount of money you enter into this gift card/faux currency system gets used up first and not last.

In other words, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. And screaming on top of that mountain stating that any corporation who wishes to build on your "mountain" shall pay a tax of 150% on their gross profit, otherwise they can go die in a fire.

See a pattern here? I hope so.

Korpg

09-07-2011, 11:40 PM

My god do people really not know how investments work? GG spelled it out perfectly, like an economics professor and they still White Knight

He has no idea what he is talking about. He is being anti-corporation here and thinking that throwing out a few choice words will make him look smart.

He needs to stick at what he is good at and not get into bigger stuff like pretending to understand investment and corporate strategy and trying to explain it to others that have even less of a viewpoint of strategy than he does.

These people would literally praise SE on their knees if SE implemented a payment system that has a guy come to your house, Kick you in your genitalia, and steal your credit card, simply because SE took the time to hire someone to do this, and how this will revolutionize the payment industry because now they created thousands of jobs for people to come kick them in the junk.

Maybe you. I don't like getting my nuts kick, thank you very much.

I'm not for or against this new payment system. It sucked that I had to change things around one time, but I understand why they did it.

Who I am against are those who spout this whole nonsense of "SE is evil and trying to steal our money away from us and not pay us interest that doesn't exist." In case you haven't realized, there is a pattern of who I reply to and what I reply. Never once did I defend SE as a whole, but rebutted these ideas that the general mob...I mean the general public have against corporations today. I guess I missed that episode of Jersey Shore that brainwashed you into thinking that wealth is bad and we should all live in the stone age.

Dragoy

09-08-2011, 12:13 AM

Without joining the 'conversation', I have to say that buying Crysta, especially in the amounts currently available, is not fun. I'm quite annoyed by it, actually, and it's not a matter of 'how much' at all as some have mentioned. It could be few cents, it could be 10 euros, it's all the same.

I'm not vocal about it, but I would much rather pay for the game and exactly the fee that it requires, which should soon be possible though which was only to be expected. I only wonder why it wasn't in the first place!

Aside from that, I could be really angry about the fact that I have to pay roughly 100€ ($144) more per year now, but I just don't have the motivation, energy, nor the time to complain or to be angry about something like this. I much rather waste my time with something else. ^^;

Just some thoughts~
Enjoy yer conversation, don't mind me.

As for the topic of the thread... I fail to see it at this point. >.>;

Kind Regards,

Shadowsong

09-08-2011, 12:17 AM

15$ now, $10 later is better for the reciever than 12.50$ now + 12.50$ later whats so hard to grasp about that? It's the entire basis of the insurance industry ffs

Korpg

09-08-2011, 12:45 AM

15$ now, $10 later is better for the reciever than 12.50$ now + 12.50$ later whats so hard to grasp about that? It's the entire basis of the insurance industry ffs

No it isn't. You have no idea what the basis for insurance is.

Also, we are talking about investment (loans and interest) and not about insurance.

You are also implying that paying $15 now and $10 later is worse for the sender, which is also not true. Either way, both parties received and gave $25.

Especially since both party's total economic effects are unchanged over the 2 month period. Neither lost money nor gained money in either transaction.

If you think that paying an extra $2.50 is harmful for you, why are you paying $12.50 in the first place?

TybudX

09-08-2011, 01:33 AM

This whole forum is funny in that it is always the same select people with their heads up their asses.

First off, "early fall" is an ambiguous term that certain people seem to have turned into "next month". Second, even if SE isn't 'investing' over half a million dollars into stocks or some such, do you really believe that one of the largest software providers in the world can't make use of that money in house? It's already on the books. It's not a matter of 'we pay 10 now, 15 later = 25', or '12.5 now 12.5 later = 25', it's a matter of 'they have 10 now'. We do not get that back. Does it go towards fees we pay to use their service? Yes. Do they get those fees earlier than they would have? Yes. Do they need to reimburse us for the money we pay them in advance for any reason whatsoever? Fuck. No. One way or the other they have this sum of money earlier, there is absolutely nothing stopping them from using it for anything they want.

Do you think they feed that money to the servers in order to keep them running? They have a bunch of guys in the basement with hardhats, shoveling stacks of cash into the ever hingry mouths of the FFXI server farms. No. That's ridiculous. The money they get early doesn't just disappear; one way or the other it is theirs. Having it sooner doesn't mean they need to sit on it until the next months pay schedule. We were given crysta for that. The money is theirs. Now.

Korpg

09-08-2011, 02:05 AM

..and we come to the cruxes of the problem.

Do they need to reimburse us for the money we pay them in advance for any reason whatsoever? Fuck. No.

You want reimbursement for a service they provide now? You sir, are an idiot. You want them to pay you back now for you paying them for playing this game. You want them to pay you back for a $2 overcharge just so you can go back around and pay them the $2 back in the next month. And it seems like you are honest in your feelings towards the matter.

There is absolutely no difference between paying anyone $12.50 per month or $25 per 2 months, because you will still receive the service for 2 months at the value of $25. You can pay $150 for 12 months of service and still receive the benefit of the service for 12 months as opposed to paying them $12.50 per month for 12 months of service. Square Enix still records you paying them for 12 months of service at $150 regardless of you paying them every month for 12 months or once every year at July 15th. They still record the same income each year, not changing a thing regardless of payment method.

What they do have when you pay for a service ahead of time is a new account on their books called "Unearned Revenue" which they still, under contract between you and them, have to fulfill. If they are unable to fulfill their part of the contract, they are obligated to pay you for the extra fees, by the implied contract and US Commerce Code. Unless, however, you live in a backwards country that doesn't have sophisticated laws that protect both the company and consumer, then in this case you really need to think about moving.

You need to stay away from business policy, business laws, and any other subjects that you have absolutely no clue about. You need to concentrate at the things you are good at, like flipping burgers.

Aldehido

09-08-2011, 04:31 AM

Guys sit down and carefully read what the galka and garuda have been saying. They're 100% correct, those of you making a huge fuss out of something simple, get a brain check and stop playing FFXI to go to a mental institution. plzkthx.

Darkvalkyr

09-08-2011, 06:09 AM

I feel some people in this thread are the kinds of guys that go crazy and say their freedoms are being restricted and it's an infringement of their rights because the government says that they're banning X type of lightbulb while it is clearly inferior to type Y, and not ever thinking that type Z will combine the best of both.

TybudX

09-08-2011, 06:36 AM

There is absolutely no difference between paying anyone $12.50 per month or $25 per 2 months, because you will still receive the service for 2 months at the value of $25.

We aren't paying $25 for their service. We are paying $25 (or whatever) for Cryta. Remember saying this?

Assuming that they will get that much even, they will receive an extra $635,495.90 (using your example) this month but lose $635,495.90 in the next month, so they basically break even. And so do you!

That isn't how it works. They get all that money... and they keep it. They aren't breaking even. They are coming ahead, because that money is money they can use right now, and they can start using it for whatever they want right now, which makes it more valuable.

We aren't paying cash for access to FFXI anymore, we are paying cash for Crysta.

Sinking in yet? It doesn't matter that it's 2.05 to each of us. When added up it's a significant sum of money, and they are getting it earlier than they normally would. So going back to GGs example, it's not how much you have it's when you have it. Lets say you were offered three choices.

You could wait 12 months and get 12 million.
You could get paid 1 million every month for 12 months.
You could get paid 12 million once at the start of 12 months.
You could get paid 11 million at the start of 12 months, and 1 million during the 2nd month.

Now, go ahead and think about how badly you are going to backpedal and bullshit your way around saying that the 3rd option isn't a fucking no-brainer. I threw that 4th one in there to show just how asinine your ideas are. I mean, are you really going to say that investing money sooner and for longer periods of time is a worse decision than investing money later for a shorter period of time?

edit - f'ing typo

Alhanelem

09-08-2011, 09:14 AM

We aren't paying $25 for their service. We are paying $25 (or whatever) for Cryta. Remember saying this?Crysta has basically no other use other than paying for their service, at least at the present time.

Greatguardian

09-08-2011, 12:06 PM

Whoa whoa whoa now.

Insinuations that I "smoked my way through college"? Anti-corporatism? Tinfoil hats? People still think I care about my personal $2.05?

There is some major wooshing and major conclusion-jumping going on up in here.

Contrary to what seems to be popular belief, corporate expenses are not simply a matter of "This is what we get every month" versus "this is what we pay every month, every time". Sometimes, corporations need cash now. Right now. Sometimes they make big bucks by being able to invest more, earlier, or by being able to make a large purchase sooner. Other times, especially in the case of Square Enix, it can help artificially inflate a company's portfolio in order to make it look more powerful than it is.

Korpg, you're also making a fairly poor comparison between an MMO and standard goods and services. On an individual level, a single product has a production cost and a price. A service also has a cost to the provider, and a price. An MMO does not cost (significantly) more with 500,000 customers than it does with 450,000 customers. There is little to no cost to the provider for the additional 50,000 "Accounts". Just because they are providing us with two months of service, does not mean they are attributing a cost to themselves for doing so. MMOs are extremely high profit margin ventures. They're not cutting into their operating cost in the future, they're just rearranging their profits in a way that is more beneficial to them.

As long as Korpg is pulling multiple RL cards on me, I'd like to know what he majored in in college (and how long ago that was). I'll be straight up, I'm pursuing a BoS in comp sci with a minor in business administration. Both of my parents have Ph.Ds in Accounting, so I'm pretty much inundated with finance at home. Is my understanding of everything finance ever perfect? By no means. But I really don't see how any of that has to do with Click and Buy's god damn United States phone support number.

Leave it to insert-jackass-here to shit up an entire thread with a one line nitpick over stupid crap.

TybudX

09-08-2011, 12:29 PM

Crysta has basically no other use other than paying for their service, at least at the present time.

Once again, a big ol' woosh.

Also:

...it's also being used to buy security tokens, additional characters, will eventually be used for FFXIV if they ever start charging for it, and will be used for other services in the future.

It's funny how you made that the basis of one of your arguments in the past.

edit - Getting scooped by GG while looking up old quote. Dude, I think the signals in our hats are getting mixed up.

Vitus

09-08-2011, 01:21 PM

Got first bill from C&B and they charged extra for "international transaction fee". This is messed up.

Korpg

09-08-2011, 10:38 PM

Insinuations that I "smoked my way through college"?
I was not referring to you.

Anti-corporatism?

Yeah, that's you, at least your arguments.

Tinfoil hats?

Not you again. Jeez, you think everything I type is about you?

People still think I care about my personal $2.05?

That is your argument.

There is some major wooshing and major conclusion-jumping going on up in here.

Then why are you complaining?

Contrary to what seems to be popular belief, corporate expenses are not simply a matter of "This is what we get every month" versus "this is what we pay every month, every time". Sometimes, corporations need cash now. Right now. Sometimes they make big bucks by being able to invest more, earlier, or by being able to make a large purchase sooner. Other times, especially in the case of Square Enix, it can help artificially inflate a company's portfolio in order to make it look more powerful than it is.

This is not the case because they did not plan to make the new payment system only to change it in less than a month. Nobody plans that. The reason why they are changing it is because so many people complained about it, so they are reevaluating it into a better system. That is proof positive that this new payment system was not planned to generate capital now for future investment. You have to look at the whole picture instead of one issue.

Korpg, you're also making a fairly poor comparison between an MMO and standard goods and services. On an individual level, a single product has a production cost and a price. A service also has a cost to the provider, and a price. An MMO does not cost (significantly) more with 500,000 customers than it does with 450,000 customers. There is little to no cost to the provider for the additional 50,000 "Accounts". Just because they are providing us with two months of service, does not mean they are attributing a cost to themselves for doing so. MMOs are extremely high profit margin ventures. They're not cutting into their operating cost in the future, they're just rearranging their profits in a way that is more beneficial to them.

You also realize that the cost of continuing a MMO is higher than the cost of continuing a prepackaged game. SE needs to keep their costs low now so they can develop new content for the future, and most of the cost associated with this game now is development. You do realize that, right?

As long as Korpg is pulling multiple RL cards on me, I'd like to know what he majored in in college (and how long ago that was). I'll be straight up, I'm pursuing a BoS in comp sci with a minor in business administration. Both of my parents have Ph.Ds in Accounting, so I'm pretty much inundated with finance at home. Is my understanding of everything finance ever perfect? By no means.

BBA in Accounting, BBA in Management, BS in Accounting this past May. Passed 1 of 4 CPA exams, just took my second one a couple of weeks ago. Planning on going to get my Master's in Accounting in the next couple of years. But enough about me, since your parents are both Accountants, go talk to them and see if your argument holds any water. Which they will tell you that you are being naive. I promise you!

But I really don't see how any of that has to do with Click and Buy's god damn United States phone support number.

Call the UK support number then? You never know, it might work. Cost you a little money though.

Leave it to insert-jackass-here to shit up an entire thread with a one line nitpick over stupid crap.

Aww, you shouldn't demean yourself like that.

Korpg

09-08-2011, 10:39 PM

Got first bill from C&B and they charged extra for "international transaction fee". This is messed up.

Your bank charged the international transaction fee, not Click and Buy.

Aldersyde

09-09-2011, 01:18 AM

Call the UK support number then? You never know, it might work. Cost you a little money though.

Of course it might work but that's not really the point. The cost of dealing with the public shouldn't be passed on to the customer. Dealing with customers is an expected expense of doing business. I know from a bean-counting perspective, not maintaining a toll-free line seems like a great idea for saving money. From a customer's perspective, not having a service which is considered normal for a business that deals in goods and services to the general public, is source of frustration and annoyance. It's WTF when you attempt to deal with someone that's not following accepted guidelines. Having a toll free number is a common practice for an respectable business. Further, they at one point did have a U.S. call center (from what GG stated).

One of my biggest gripes with CnB is that the whole way they've set up their customer service is amateurish. They are hard to contact. They seem to not want to talk to people using their service. As a customer, that doesn't really inspire confidence that if something did go wrong that I could get it dealt with in a satisfactory and efficient manner, which is what businesses (good ones) should be aiming to do. I don't even know how GG found the number that he found because i got annoyed after 5 minutes searching their site and said F-It. On the other hand, I found a number on Paypal's site after two or three clicks intuitive clicks on their web page.

It's hard to believe that SE found a business WORSE than them in the customer service aspect to partner up with. Even SE has a toll free number ffs.

Tell me again, how much work should people really have to give someone money.

Korpg

09-09-2011, 02:04 AM

I meant call the UK support line for information on the US support line, not to fix your problem. That would cost you more money (depending on your phone service however, any international calls that I make would not be an additional cost to me).

TybudX

09-09-2011, 03:11 AM

This is not the case because they did not plan to make the new payment system only to change it in less than a month.

1. Their original intention was to do exactly what is being described.
2. Again, "early fall" =/= this month, or next month, or any specific time. As it stands, SE is still doing exactly what they were doing before, with no set time frame for when they will alter the current payment method except "early fall".

edit - Which doesn't change the fact they they are doing it in the first place. Yeah, it's nice that they plan to fix it, but trying to force people into that kind of payment scheme in the first place after years of a different type of payment plan is just a stupid thing to do. As a company they should have realized how fail it was by the amount of bitching that went on when they tried using it for FFXIV, but typical SE has their blinders on to anything that is actually relevant to their customers. They still haven't figured out that they are now a Service Provider as well a a Software Provider. Making flashy games with horrible Emo stories isn't going to cut it anymore.

Korpg

09-09-2011, 04:36 AM

1. Their original intention was to do exactly what is being described.
2. Again, "early fall" =/= this month, or next month, or any specific time. As it stands, SE is still doing exactly what they were doing before, with no set time frame for when they will alter the current payment method except "early fall".

1. Do you honestly think that the only way for Square Enix to obtain cash is to implement this new payment method? I promise you, this game's revenue stream is just a drop in the bucket for Square Enix's total cash flow. But you go ahead and think that they are out to take your money. Enjoy your tinfoil hat.
2. Early Fall is generally accepted to mean September and the first week of October. Which is in a month, go figure. If you can't handle the concept of "generally accepted" then you will hate society!

edit - Which doesn't change the fact they they are doing it in the first place. Yeah, it's nice that they plan to fix it, but trying to force people into that kind of payment scheme in the first place after years of a different type of payment plan is just a stupid thing to do. As a company they should have realized how fail it was by the amount of bitching that went on when they tried using it for FFXIV, but typical SE has their blinders on to anything that is actually relevant to their customers. They still haven't figured out that they are now a Service Provider as well a a Software Provider. Making flashy games with horrible Emo stories isn't going to cut it anymore.

If you are thinking that this whole payment system change is for anything but a cost cutting and strategic move for Square Enix, you need to stay away from business policy. This new system is obvious to anyone who would open their eyes into the real world and ask questions like "why does Company X invest into Company Z?" or "What is the point for Company A to enter into this market?"

They do realize that they are now a Service Provider, but this is a new segment for them. Do you expect people to be great at things the first time they tried it? This is a new territory for them, so why not cut them some slack instead of screaming "foul" and "corrupt".

Greatguardian

09-09-2011, 05:46 AM

Of course it might work but that's not really the point. The cost of dealing with the public shouldn't be passed on to the customer. Dealing with customers is an expected expense of doing business. I know from a bean-counting perspective, not maintaining a toll-free line seems like a great idea for saving money. From a customer's perspective, not having a service which is considered normal for a business that deals in goods and services to the general public, is source of frustration and annoyance. It's WTF when you attempt to deal with someone that's not following accepted guidelines. Having a toll free number is a common practice for an respectable business. Further, they at one point did have a U.S. call center (from what GG stated).

One of my biggest gripes with CnB is that the whole way they've set up their customer service is amateurish. They are hard to contact. They seem to not want to talk to people using their service. As a customer, that doesn't really inspire confidence that if something did go wrong that I could get it dealt with in a satisfactory and efficient manner, which is what businesses (good ones) should be aiming to do. I don't even know how GG found the number that he found because i got annoyed after 5 minutes searching their site and said F-It. On the other hand, I found a number on Paypal's site after two or three clicks intuitive clicks on their web page.

It's hard to believe that SE found a business WORSE than them in the customer service aspect to partner up with. Even SE has a toll free number ffs.

Tell me again, how much work should people really have to give someone money.

This really is the whole point, back on the original C&B topic. I only knew of their old number because I had to call them over a year ago when I first made an account with them for FFXIV. Apparently, my account was flagged on registration for "Random security checks" or some stupid junk which required me to call in and verify my identity over the phone. It's nearly impossible to find their phone number on their website, and a google search for their phone support number yields nothing.

When you go to C&B's "contact" page, they have email response forms for existing customers and people without an account. Well, since the existing customer page requires you to log in, anyone with account-related issues like mine would be unable to properly contact the right email support department. I eventually had to rely on email support, and even that has been atrocious. The first response to my inquiry yielded a "Here is how you log in" automated message, which did nothing but tick me off. The second response I got, which was a reply to me simply asking "What is the phone number for your United States support center?", was simply "I think we should probably call you, when are you available?"

That was a week ago. I gave them my schedule for this week, and have yet to hear back either by email or by phone from them at all. It doesn't help that the turnover time between each of these emails was 4-5 business days.

This whole process is doing nothing but piss me off.

TybudX

09-09-2011, 09:43 AM

1. Do you honestly think that the only way for Square Enix to obtain cash is to implement this new payment method? I promise you, this game's revenue stream is just a drop in the bucket for Square Enix's total cash flow. But you go ahead and think that they are out to take your money. Enjoy your tinfoil hat.
2. Early Fall is generally accepted to mean September and the first week of October. Which is in a month, go figure. If you can't handle the concept of "generally accepted" then you will hate society!

If you are thinking that this whole payment system change is for anything but a cost cutting and strategic move for Square Enix, you need to stay away from business policy. This new system is obvious to anyone who would open their eyes into the real world and ask questions like "why does Company X invest into Company Z?" or "What is the point for Company A to enter into this market?"

They do realize that they are now a Service Provider, but this is a new segment for them. Do you expect people to be great at things the first time they tried it? This is a new territory for them, so why not cut them some slack instead of screaming "foul" and "corrupt".

1. Oh golly gee, you're right! No company would ever want a quick 600k, they already have so much! And you can keep the tinfoil hat. I never said they were taking my money, I said they were taking my money earlier than they normally would have. There's a huge difference that you seem incapable of accepting.
2. By SE own words, they've missed updates and deadlines before. "Early fall" means when it's ready. Nothing more, nothing less.

3. No shit, I know exactly why SE is doing this. I'm not holding it against them in any way. Well, that's not true. I don't want SE to have free access to my capital for their gain without recompense. I would gladly accept 3.7% interest on my forced investment in their company.

4. SE has been a service provider for almost 10 years now, and they attempted to use this very payment system with FFXIV. If they had actually listened to their customers when that fiasco came about they wouldn't be hearing this now. Instead they stuck with it.

And this again, because you seem to understand on some level:

If you are thinking that this whole payment system change is for anything but a cost cutting and strategic move for Square Enix, you need to stay away from business policy.

SE is in this for the money. They are a business. You are so close to accepting the fact that they had their best interest in mind when they decided to switch to a points based payment method. Exactly like Microsoft, or a Visa giftcards, or a Payday Loans. It's an easy way to create extra revenue by billing early and having invisible service fee hikes.