Replacing CoolDown?

[Tetsujin]

So it seems that most everyone's come to a conclusion that Cool Down is relatively useless, save for using it upon activation.

My humble suggestion to the devs is Job Trait replacement.
This Job trait would start at level 30 or 40 maybe and scale up (I / II / III etc)

Effect: Lowers the amount of default Burden automatons spawn/zone with.
and/or
Effect: Increases rate of Burden decay
and/or
Effect: Decreases duration of Overload



I know the topic that bounces is around is that "PUPs don't need to worry about overload" but since the Devs were so set on adding this, I figure a more useful, applicable replacement made sense.

Sincerely, Please read my posts devs. (lookin at you Camate <3)

[xbobx]

thing is cooldown is a great JA, but not at 95, at 30 it would have been great.

[Tetsujin]

agreed. either way, it's clear that at its current level, a change is necessary. Either change it or drop it to a more base-level, or even both.

Also, this JA shows that its possible to make a job ability erase Overload. Why not make our Two Hour do the same? C'mon.

[Anza]

agreed. either way, it's clear that at its current level, a change is necessary. Either change it or drop it to a more base-level, or even both.

Also, this JA shows that its possible to make a job ability erase Overload. Why not make our Two Hour do the same? C'mon.

Cooldown -> Overdrive. Problem solved.

[Shinron-PUP]

Instead of replacing cool down or getting rid of it, why not make it reset attachment Job abilities, but still have the overload reduction... Also a 5 minute recast time would be good. With all that you could do back to back Strobes/Replicators/Heat capacitors, or just reset Job abilities when you first spawn your pet since there is a "Cool Down" on job abilities for the first 2 minutes.

[Theytak]

agreed. either way, it's clear that at its current level, a change is necessary. Either change it or drop it to a more base-level, or even both.

Also, this JA shows that its possible to make a job ability erase Overload. Why not make our Two Hour do the same? C'mon.

how about giving us a new, better 2hour while they're at it?

[Yoky]

Cooldown is like our 2 hr.. useless @ 95.

I cant even make myself overload to use cool down...I think Cooldown should be changed to a level 30 or lower job ability.

I wanna test it but at the same time i know i will never use it.. EVER

[Bayohne]

Based on player feedback, the recast time for Cooldown has been lowered from 10 minuted to 5 minutes. (3 minutes would be a bit too much...)

[Alhanelem]

Easily obtainable gear to counter overload possibility severly diminishes the usefulness of the ability with any recast. It would be much more useful at lower levels, as mentioned by many others, or perhaps if it applied a more lingering effect.

Basically, we barely need this ability at all in its current state. It doesn't really matter what the recast is.

[Chamaan]

Shinron's idea of making Cooldown reset JA attachments is really good, though I'd like it if it did spell recast instead. For those "Remove Para, you stupid puppet, not silence, I'm /war you idiot" moments.

Sadly it's looking more and more like Cooldown is going to be our Footwork.

[Psion]

Shinron's idea of making Cooldown reset JA attachments is really good, though I'd like it if it did spell recast instead. For those "Remove Para, you stupid puppet, not silence, I'm /war you idiot" moments.

Sadly it's looking more and more like Cooldown is going to be our Footwork.

I'd rather it didn't reset spell recast, because then SE would think of it as a good enough fix for automaton AI, and never fix the priorities of its casting.

[Theytak]

Based on player feedback, the recast time for Cooldown has been lowered from 10 minuted to 5 minutes. (3 minutes would be a bit too much...)

Considering this job ability is so useful that it will get used about once every two-three months, I'm not sure how 3 minutes can be considered "too much". If it were level 30-50, or actually did something that justified it not being available until 95, I could see where that would be coming from, but as it stands now, 30 seconds wouldn't even be to much.

[Shinron-PUP]

Shinron's idea of making Cooldown reset JA attachments is really good, though I'd like it if it did spell recast instead. For those "Remove Para, you stupid puppet, not silence, I'm /war you idiot" moments.

Sadly it's looking more and more like Cooldown is going to be our Footwork.

Wow... Wish I could shake your hand... It's about time someone agrees with one of the many thousand suggestions I've made for the job mwahahaha. Anywho... I think that it would be good if they added an attachment similar to Mana Well (The new black mage spell that makes the next spell cost no mp) and the new Red Mage Job ability that cuts the spell casting time of the next spell in half into an attachment. If the attachment occasionally gave our pets instant cast on the next spell and also reset the spell timer (Similar to how Barrage Turbine works on ranged attacks), then it would be interesting for Black Mage and White mage pet with curing/nuking since it would somewhat eliminate the long recast on magic that makes the pet difficult to work with.

On the other hand, I agree that it would be nice if they implemented a spell reset into Cool Down also because then you would have more control over when your spell will be reset incomparison to how an attachment randomly activates.

Cool down just doesn't do enough to make it actually worth waiting to aquire at 95... I feel that when I'm 95~99 Puppetmaster... I should have complete sychronization with my pet, but also 100% control over him when necessary. Square Enix is striving so hard to make job abilities for jobs that reflect its nature and what it does best , like bully with thief, but this is still no excuse to ignore the things that obviously need to be fixed that is staring them right in the face like the lacking A.I. fuctionality... However, don't give up... This attachment "revamping" might actual be good for the job. If they can make the power of attachments at level 90 as strong as they were when we were at level 1 where we could use Shock Absorber which blocked 100 damage when mobs were only hitting for 1 damage, then there might be some hope after all.

[Cyranda]

I would like to know what the developers think Cooldown will actually add to Puppetmaster.

With the current, easy-to-get gear that avoids overload, why the focus on removing overload? Are the developers planning to add new attachments that consume maneuvers (and are strong enough to actually use instead of simply wasting your attack delay putting up maneuvers for that attachment and then the maneuvers for your normal actions while not screwing up your automaton's weapon skill choice)? Were not enough people using Heat Capacitor, Flame Holder*, Barrage Turbine, etc.? Honestly, some of them (most?) aren't good enough to use, and I'm of the opinion that maneuver-eating attachments are an unfortunate mechanic anyway, as putting up a new maneuver every 10 seconds gets tiresome, and the automaton is already wont to choose to do things at just the wrong moment anyway (for instance, using Barrage Turbine just after the master puts up a maneuver, then immediately using Arcuballista or Daze because the wind maneuvers have been used and the master couldn't put up another wind maneuver in time to trigger Armor Shatterer or Retrieve before the WS goes off).

I hope this doesn't mean that there's a plan in motion to increase the frequency of overload with attachments in general. I'd much prefer a revamping of maneuver consuming attachments so they don't consume maneuvers at all, while making attachments strong enough to make deciding which maneuvers to use more valuable. On the other hand, perhaps a better use of Cooldown would simply be to make it an ability that lasts 60 seconds, causing any maneuvers used during its effect to remain for several minutes instead of 1 (though admittedly, that might limit the feel of "controlling" the automaton and render it too similar to a Dragoon's wyvern).

In any case, Cooldown halving burden and removing overload doesn't seem valuable enough, at this point, and anything that would make it valuable (unless such things were extremely strong, and even then) would probably just be annoying.

*An aside about Flameholder: This is one of the attachments that makes me worry about attachments that consume maneuvers. While it sounds good in theory, its being fire based screws up any value it would have in using multiple maneuvers on its own (Arcuballista and Chimera Ripper are not exciting), and using it with an inhibitor introduces a host of other problems (using Inhibitor and Flame Holder instead of a Tension Spring, watching your Automaton use a weak WS to SC with another party member, having to use fire maneuvers instead of wind or thunder to get value out of them depending on circumstance, etc.) Sometimes it feels like some attachments give the illusion of choice (increased WS while decreasing regular hit damage/forcing maneuver spam, resulting in the same amount of overall damage), but really don't change and/or worsen the actual overall damage/whatever.

If Cooldown is a prelude to attachments that increase overload chance (through focus on reusing maneuvers or just increasing burden per maneuver), they should be absolutely amazing and not just fiddling with numbers or stealth normalizing of damage. If not, Cooldown is not going to be an ability worth adding into the game except as a very occasional "quality of life" adjustment that lacks substance.

[Dfoley]

shinron's post
08-31-2011 10:44 PM


Instead of replacing cool down or getting rid of it, why not make it reset attachment Job abilities, but still have the overload reduction... Also a 5 minute recast time would be good. With all that you could do back to back Strobes/Replicators/Heat capacitors, or just reset Job abilities when you first spawn your pet since there is a "Cool Down" on job abilities for the first 2 minutes.

my post
08-30-2011 08:55 PM
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13995-Feedback-Cooldown

My suggestion since overload is really not an issue at all anymore. (again just my personal oppinion)

1) Resets all of the pets JA (barrage, shield block, flash bulb, stoneskin, spell recast)
2) 2 minute reuse timer

Example of a use:
1) Sharp shot pet uses barrage - > weapon skill -> cooldown -> barrage again
2) whm pet sees you are 50hp and have blind on -> casts blindna -> cooldown -> casts cure 6
3) blm pet casts aspir (sub 75% mp) -> cool down -> nuke

I obviouslly agree with shinron, however i cant give him credit as to it being his idea when i posted the same thing the day before.

And its not a 'fix' to the ai, we all want that first, but think of it like this.

Your at 23% hp, pet cure 6's
Mob does tp move and you back at 23%,
cool down
instant cure 6 again (no 20 second wait)

Once every 2 minutes is useful and doesnt have to be just as a fix to the ai, it could easily be a usefull upgrade all around

[Dfoley]

On a side note its become very obvious that the developers dont listen at all to the US players. 99% of this comes straight from jp and is just translated over. SO until one of us learns to post in the jp thread, chances are we are stuck getting the bad ideas they come up with.

[Shinron-PUP]

shinron's post
08-31-2011 10:44 PM



my post
08-30-2011 08:55 PM
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13995-Feedback-Cooldown


I obviouslly agree with shinron, however i cant give him credit as to it being his idea when i posted the same thing the day before.

And its not a 'fix' to the ai, we all want that first, but think of it like this.

Your at 23% hp, pet cure 6's
Mob does tp move and you back at 23%,
cool down
instant cure 6 again (no 20 second wait)

Once every 2 minutes is useful and doesnt have to be just as a fix to the ai, it could easily be a usefull upgrade all around

Ops... Hope it didn't seem as if I was plagiarizing your previous post/thread; I never seen your post or else I wouldn't have necessarily suggested it, but encouraged it. I had thought of it around the moment I posted it when I was discussing Cool Down with my brother. Seemingly this keeps happening though because some guy thought up adding Eagle Eye shot/Benediction/Invincible/etc. to Overdrive 4 days prior to when I posted it in one of my threads then I felt silly reading his in the post about "Changing Puppetmaster 2 hour". Anyhow, you may have all the credit you deserve. I'm just happy that more than one person thought of this though because it means that it would be a popular addition to cool down that wouldn't have any unwanted controversy. Also resetting attachments only makes logical sense when using something like Cool Down. I always hated the fact that if my pet died, then I would have to wait 2 minutes during a important fight for my pets attachments to be ready after activate, expecially when I'm soloing, and I would lose out in alot of damage just because he was in a weakended state.

Not to be cliche, but great minds think alike, time and time again, but obviously yours is greater because you thought of it first :)!

[Chamaan]

I'm just really annoyed with always getting "We're adding new attachments and strengthening old ones" every time they mention anything about a pup fix. We need fixes beyond making a more powerful Tension Spring and another 3 fire attachment that I have to furrow my brow in consternation over when choosing a set. This isn't putting spinners on a Gremlin. It's putting spinners on an Acura that that honks the horn 1/10 times you step on the brakes.

I mean, Cooldown is nice, I'm not complaining that we got something new, but it's not going to add anything substantial to the job. I mean, even Kick Attacks 1 would've been a bigger boost overall than Cooldown.

[Dfoley]

O shinron, I agree 100%. Its funny to me that 2 separate pups came up with the same idea, yet the best the other forum got was "make it 5 minutes instead of 10~!".

While I dont mind the new/rebalanced attachments, there are definitely more then a few that need to be rebalanced. Personally they all need to scale better as you level 1 to 99. 20 evasion is nice at level 10 but at 99 its crap. I would much prefer them all to be % based when possible. +10% evasion is pimp compared to +10 evasion.

[xbobx]

that would be a nice ja, a timer reset basically.

along with that it can reset things like flash, eraser etc.

[Dohati]

Shinron's idea of making Cooldown reset JA attachments is really good, though I'd like it if it did spell recast instead. For those "Remove Para, you stupid puppet, not silence, I'm /war you idiot" moments.

Sadly it's looking more and more like Cooldown is going to be our Footwork.

while i agree cooldown is useless, footwork is awesome with the right setup.

[Theytak]

while i agree cooldown is useless, footwork is awesome with the right setup.

except that even with the right set up, you'd still be doing more damage without footwork.

and also, I think what was meant bythat wasn't footwork as it is now, with tall the gear that buffs both it, and kicks, but rather how completely useless it was when it was released

[Tetsujin]

While I appreciate the concern, devs, in lowering the cooldown recast to 5 minutes, the practical points of our arguments have not been addressed.
- It's still level 95.
- It's still of little use to people who gear properly.
- Compared to what other jobs attain at level 95 it's a tad bit underwhelming.

[Anza]

that would be a nice ja, a timer reset basically.

along with that it can reset things like flash, eraser etc.

I agree wholeheartedly. Cooldown is pretty much poaching a COR JA - it's Fold, but removing the negative effect of Overload/Burden instead of removing the negative effect of Bust. I'd much rather have had them be inspired by Random Deal, and have a PUP JA that resets puppet ability/spell timers. Now THAT would make sense talking about how long of a recast timer would be too often to be fair. As JinteTheytak (sorry old habit!) said, if you're using Cooldown only in extremely rare situations, recast time being 20min or 30sec doesn't make a lick of difference.

[Theytak]

I agree wholeheartedly. Cooldown is pretty much poaching a COR JA - it's Fold, but removing the negative effect of Overload/Burden instead of removing the negative effect of Bust. I'd much rather have had them be inspired by Random Deal, and have a PUP JA that resets puppet ability/spell timers. Now THAT would make sense talking about how long of a recast timer would be too often to be fair. As JinteTheytak (sorry old habit!) said, if you're using Cooldown only in extremely rare situations, recast time being 20min or 30sec doesn't make a lick of difference.

lol, it's just as weird for me. I takes a little bit for me to register that someone on a forum talking to "Theytak" is talking to me, despite theytak being my in game name, and my RP/Fantasy/Game name since before I was rockin a windows 95..., and being a name I've never seen anyone else use

[Chamaan]

I been thinking on it a little bit. And you know what'd make this JA useful? A Trait that comes in at the same level that halves maneuver recast time. Or just add -Maneuver Recast to animators like they should've done at the start so there's a reason to upgrade them beyond more Dex and +HP for puppets.

Would be fun to do some gambling with a freshly summoned Spiritreaver, throwing up three ice with a 3-5 second recast on maneuvers.

To explain my line of reasoning a little more. The ten second recast is a limiter that keeps us from overloading all the time when we start up the job. By the time the timer resets most of the burden created by the last maneuver has already decayed. By 90 all the gear we have makes it so that every maneuver creates barely any burden at all, so why keep the 10 second limitation? It's not protecting us from anything.

At 90 you should know enough about your puppet to know the risks in spamming that many maneuvers, we don't need tutorial mode anymore at that point. And it's even more situational considering the constant JA spam is going to slow down your own melee damage. I think it could add some excitement back to the job.

[xbobx]

I wouldn't mind a job trait or ability to give puppet 50% of the food we eat, we know it can be done considering dragoon. This is probably something that should be added to all pet jobs by 99. Would really help to differentiate puppets and bst pets by choose a more defensive, magical or offensive setup.

[xiozen]

SE please don't even add Cooldown... as it's been stated over and over again, it's not necessary; and if you feel it is, please take a moment and explain why--beyond your current explanation--in the meantime, let's discuss a little about the proposed adjustments or changes are in the works for attachments in general:

As it stands attachments just are not effective enough... it's great that they are intended to enhance the automaton's overall effectiveness, in and outside of combat, however I believe that certain attachments (perhaps not all of them) should be reviewed, re-re-reviewed and then re-re-re-reviewed again to ensure they are working as intended. For Example:

If you want the ValorEdge head/frame combination to function as a "Paladin" class, obviously MORE -pdt (alot more) is needed...

Armor Plate (change it from enhancing defense) to (enhancing -PDT%) - I honestly believe defense takes a backseat to actual -PDT...please correct me if I'm wrong.

The Scanner attachment continues in the game as a "bug"...what I mean is, it's taking up a slot on the soulsoother. Even though you modified it to prevent the automaton from casting "Silence" unless certain conditions are met; is this really the best way to correct this problem...by forcing players to equip an attachment in order to prevent a bug from occurring? Why not actually fix the issue so as to prevent the soulsoother from casting silence in the first place if those previously mentioned conditions have been met? This really is a slight short-change for the PUP job, at least for that specific head/frame combination since one slot is lost during customization in order to prevent a bug.

Strobe... you mentioned in a previous post about potentially adding "Strobe II"... ok, all the cool attachments to add are great and all, BUT, why add strobe II?... Is it not feasible to increase the strength of Strobe and then scale the effects over the skill or level of PUP?

This "might" be ok, if you re-worked the elemental capacities as you mentioned you were looking at doing. If you decide to adjust the elemental capacities over the head/frame combinations then I wouldn't have a problem with adding additional attachments for the purpose of enhancing the effectiveness of the job.

As it stands PUP is strong... quite a few things can be tweaked to make the job a lot more balanced than it is--and increasing it's effectiveness at soloing stronger and stronger enemies as the level cap is raised and newer, more difficult content, is released will make many PUPs very very happy.

Thanks for reading.

[xbobx]

Xiozen you do really that SE already are reviewing all the attachments, and have already said they were going to change the armor plate to do -pdt? They already admitted scanner was bugged and are looking at it.

[Dfoley]

I personally would have no issue with stuff like "strobe II" or "ice maker II" of "turbo charger II".

I have always wanted attachments that are rare/ex and from HNM type events to prevent every pup from being a clone. Something that is not AH buyable and useable at level 1 would be fantastic.

Give us attachments that have required levels of 90, 95, 99. I'll gladly wait till 99 for ice maker 2, rare/ex, double the bonus of ice maker 1, and adds magic acc to boot.

[Darkvalkyr]

When overload first was announced I was all "Hey neat, I can go wild with my maneuvers more!"

Then I looked at the testing some peeps've done, and thought "...hmmmm...doesn't really help too much."

I agree it needs something to make it relevant.

[Concerned4FFxi]

a good pup rarely over loads at 90. Look at bismarck server, jonadriel, she doesnt have mythic yet but I never see her over load and she constanly out dd every job except maybe another frind of mine who's an empyrean sam on a 2 hit zanshin build (if zanshin procs its 2hits, he still uses 5hit build on his relic but tht doesnt see much use anymore, lol) The +2 body is amazing, and she constanly spams maneuvers. If on Bismarck, give her a buzz she knows her stuff and firmly believes cooldown is great at low levels but not needed at 90 if one knows how overload works.

How bout fixing pup's broke 2hr, and nin's as well. Add damage to smn's.

[Theytak]

I been thinking on it a little bit. And you know what'd make this JA useful? A Trait that comes in at the same level that halves maneuver recast time. Or just add -Maneuver Recast to animators like they should've done at the start so there's a reason to upgrade them beyond more Dex and +HP for puppets.

Would be fun to do some gambling with a freshly summoned Spiritreaver, throwing up three ice with a 3-5 second recast on maneuvers.

To explain my line of reasoning a little more. The ten second recast is a limiter that keeps us from overloading all the time when we start up the job. By the time the timer resets most of the burden created by the last maneuver has already decayed. By 90 all the gear we have makes it so that every maneuver creates barely any burden at all, so why keep the 10 second limitation? It's not protecting us from anything.

At 90 you should know enough about your puppet to know the risks in spamming that many maneuvers, we don't need tutorial mode anymore at that point. And it's even more situational considering the constant JA spam is going to slow down your own melee damage. I think it could add some excitement back to the job.

If we could reduce the recast of maneuvers down to 3~5 seconds, or we even had maneuvers on separate recast timers, I could see cooldown on a 5 min recast actually having some merit. We don't NEED 3~5 second maneuvers by any means, but if we had them, this JA wouldn't be totally worthless.


a good any pup with half a brain rarely overloads at 90 after 56.
ftfy. Also welcome to pup forum, where we pretend SE actually cares about anyone other than the JP players opinions about pup. The nin and smn forums are {That way.}. Just sayin'

[Kristal]

ftfy. Also welcome to pup forum, where we pretend SE actually cares about anyone other than the JP players opinions about pup. The nin and smn forums are {That way.}. Just sayin'

Well, it helps we got our own pet CR to reveal top secret PUP information! :D

[Dfoley]

I think it stoped being top secret when he basicly reposted 3 different threads into a single one. Nothing said was new news.

Then again sarcasim is lost in forms :-/