Isn't it strange how Ninjas are tanks?

[Juri_Licious]

I mean if you take a look at an actual Ninja they are quite the opposite and focus on the bodies weak points.

It'd make a lot more sense if Samurai was a tank class. I mean they are suited in armor.

Just thought it was rather odd.

[Frost]

Samurai is a tank class...

[Juri_Licious]

Samurai is a tank class...

And when was the last time you seen them tank?

[Frost]

And when was the last time you seen them tank?

When was the last time a Paladin tanked?

[Juri_Licious]

When was the last time a Paladin tanked?

Sometime before Abyssea.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The exact same time Sam was tanking.

[Saefinn]

Samurai would have made the more appropriate tank/dd because you think of Samurai as being people who can take damage, who can parry a weapon or even dodge an attack (hence third eye) and it would work if done right - but Samurai as a class is more appreciated for its ability to deal damage. Ninjas are assassins who lurk in the shadows to be unseen and use tools and deceive their foes in order to cast their striking blow - so it's appropriate they get Utsusemi and use Ninja tools. As Ninjas are great at not getting hit, suddenly that makes them a good tank. I suspect Ninja was instended as a DD job, but it worked out to be a pretty decent tank. Particuarly in Abyssea, it seems the emphasis is not on taking damage, but rather avoiding it and THF and NIN both do that very well. It might be why we see fewer PLD, they're fantastic tanks, but they're about absorbing damage rather than avoiding it or at least, don't avoid it as much as a NIN or THF.


Though what I find strange is that COR gets an A- parrying skill, if anything COR will be additional DD and enhancements, I don't think it's really able to handle direct confrontation like real pirates.

[Vortex]

You kidding me? back before abyssea SAM was a great tank in the right hands, because they coverd what makes a tank a tank, damage dealing. to keep the mobs attention, while providing defense moves such as /nin for shadows or trusting third eye. it worked and i have seen it. obviously there are some things SAM can't stand agaisnt to long but most stuff they could.

The primary reason PLD failed at tanking is because while they have hate enimity generating abitlies they lacked damage, you NEED damage in order to keep hate on anything, and they simply failed in that department.

example of SE giving PLD atoment, but in later updates everything either took half atonment damage or resisted it comepletly, really dumb move they did but w/e

and we come to the reason nin are great tanks, they can dish out the damage now (mainly thanks to kannagis) and they can not get hit assuming the attack isn't aoe.

[DebbieGibson]

PLD didn't, doesn't, don't, shant, shornt(?) fail at tanking. Damage sources have never been able to go all out unless they want to eat dirt. pld/nin can cap hate very fast(not abyssea DD fast, but fast).

[Sparthos]

With the Voidwatch SE has planned, PLD will comfortably be going back to #1 tank because shadows mean squat and monsters are beefed up.

[Yukichibi]

Taking no damage is better than taking less damage, i think it explains all.

[Arcon]

I think he meant from a role-playing perspective, not from an efficiency perspective. And he's right, Ninjas are very weird tanks, they're even weird as melee, they're support to work covertly and stealthy, not provoking monsters and whatnot.

[Ophannus]

NIN and THF should switch play styles. In typical RPGs the THF(Rogue) is more dual wieldy/uses tools to enfeeble, avoid detection while the NIN or assassin is about sneak attacking and critical hits.

[Kojo]

IIRC, SAM was meant to be a tank. NIN was meant to be a ranged attacker/enfeebler/DoT DD.

[Harukusan]

PLD is an amazing tank. Get an Almace (and Ochain if you haven't already), gear up PROPERLY for it, and voila, you have an outstanding tank that can deal damage. I wouldn't accept any other job to tank in Voidwatch. Abyssea there are almost endless options, a WHM could tank ffs because of their seemingly limitless MP pools. But then again, "Abyssea is too hard" amirite?

[seraphimhunter]

Back when the way of the game was a 6 person party with one tank and one healer and three to four DDs and hopefully a RDM for Dispel/Refresh or those Kuftal Crabs you were way too low to drag me to fight would take forever to kill, Samurai wasn't all that great of a tank because of how we used to fight IT++ mobs for high exp chains.

Once that changed over to T to VTs Samurai really came into the light with their ability to take hate, and hold it. Once SE gave them Seigan, that was it, they became one of the better tanks in those kinds of parties. NIN was still on top, and most jobs could do it with /NIN, but SAM could sub whatever they wanted and still tank through it with the Third Eye updates.

SAM could always tank. Just at first PLD and NIN were the best because of how we used to play the game.

EDIT

Which actually is how NIN came to be a tank. Once people realized how *good* Utsusemi was at mitigating damage, it simply became the way to tank. Before it used to be "maximize defense" because not even Shield blocking was reliable back in the day, it was only slightly better than relying on Parrying. SE didn't exactly embrace that idea at first, but over time they started accepting it and added gear to help the NIN with their new role. NIN became a tank just like SAM: because of our playstyle at the time. Which hasn't exactly changed all that much. :p

[Tagrineth]

IIRC, SAM was meant to be a tank. NIN was meant to be a ranged attacker/enfeebler/DoT DD.

SE has disagreed with you about SAM on numerous occasions.

[Rearden]

I can't think of anything PLD tanked better than SAM at 75 cap that wasn't already a zerg fight (and thus no tank)

[Arcon]

I can't think of anything PLD tanked better than SAM at 75 cap that wasn't already a zerg fight (and thus no tank)

Plague Chigoe.

[svengalis]

SAM was a tank before abyssea WTF?! Their defense is too weak.

[Selzak]

I know that NIN was never intended to be a tank. I think SE just underestimated players willingness to spam Utsusemi, and since it's a reliable Blink ontop of an EVA heavy job...NIN tank. I seem to recall NIN actually being created as a sort of specialized puller.

It seems like SAM may have actually been made to either tank, or be able to fill a tank role if needed. They've said that it wasn't intended to be a tank, but the emphasis on parrying in some aspects of the job has always made people wonder.

A lot of jobs never become what SE had in mind. DRK and RDM are two other examples. I think part of this has to do with the game being designed initially around the idea that arbitrarily large groups of players would be fighting and questing to gain levels and fame- not forming strict rules and conventions or fighting IT monsters almost exclusively in order to gain levels. Some jobs benefit from this maximizing of opportunity, many have not.

[Mirage]

I would say SAM is not made to be *the* tank, but is meant to be able to take some punishment if needed. A so called backup tank.

[DebbieGibson]

SAM was a tank before abyssea WTF?! Their defense is too weak.

sam was the de facto DD tank at 75

[Cursed]

sam was the de facto DD tank at 75

no. no. no.
While SAM was exceptional at tanking, it wasn't the "de facto" tank at 75.
SAMs wouldn't last 30 seconds vs PW or AV.
There are also several other mobs that SAMs have no chance at tanking.
try going and tanking some VNMs and Synergy mobs with SAM and let me know how long you last without 3-4 whms spaming cureV on you.

And when SAM did tank, it often relied on a co-tank. No SAM was solo tanking Tiamat, Khimaira, Cerberus, Saramaya.
They were often accompanied by another sam, or a thief, or a war/sam..

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'm fairly certain a Sam on my server did solo tank Sara, /war. Or mostly, idr and can't find the post but if he had a co tank it wasn't another sam/war/pld etc., I don't know if he had a thf or not.

[Cursed]

even if for only 30 seconds, there are times when fighting Sara that you need breathing space as SAM.
Unless of course your friend did sara with an alliance @75, in which case anything could tank it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Thread it was in got nuked so can't find it now anyway.

[Kimble]

SAM could tank. The thing was most people that play SAM don't carry MDT, PDT sets so thats why people think they couldnt.

[Sparthos]

no. no. no.
While SAM was exceptional at tanking, it wasn't the "de facto" tank at 75.
SAMs wouldn't last 30 seconds vs PW or AV.
There are also several other mobs that SAMs have no chance at tanking.
try going and tanking some VNMs and Synergy mobs with SAM and let me know how long you last without 3-4 whms spaming cureV on you.

And when SAM did tank, it often relied on a co-tank. No SAM was solo tanking Tiamat, Khimaira, Cerberus, Saramaya.
They were often accompanied by another sam, or a thief, or a war/sam..

Is this sarcasm or something?

At 75, SAM DRK RDM PLD were the most popular tank classes. PLD and RDM were used for the big things but only when the group was unsure of the support lines capabilities or for the select mobs that weren't DD friendly like PW, Fomors etc.

You'd usually see those two classes brought out for the high stakes events like claiming a Tiamat or Khimaira just because it'd cost too much to lose claim simply because you didn't bring the safest tank classes. Some shells would use a DRK in these situations as well.

Wyrms are generally a bad example because they can fly. People were DD tanking Hydra, Khim and Cerb np @75 because those were battles where your stuns made or broke you anyway.

While PLD and RDM enjoyed success in the "safe" tier, the rest of the game enjoyed DD dominance with 2 DD being able to bounce hate and deal more damage. Even in some of the hardest content (MMM NMs, ZNMs, Einherjar), DD were much better than bringing a RDM or PLD.

[Reiterpallasch]

Strange? Not really. Totally like the player base to take a master of stealth and make them the center of a mobs attention.

[Rearden]

no. no. no.
While SAM was exceptional at tanking, it wasn't the "de facto" tank at 75.
SAMs wouldn't last 30 seconds vs PW or AV.
There are also several other mobs that SAMs have no chance at tanking.
try going and tanking some VNMs and Synergy mobs with SAM and let me know how long you last without 3-4 whms spaming cureV on you.

And when SAM did tank, it often relied on a co-tank. No SAM was solo tanking Tiamat, Khimaira, Cerberus, Saramaya.
They were often accompanied by another sam, or a thief, or a war/sam..

Fairly certain I solo tanked Khim, Cerb, Saramaya, Tyger, Ultima, etc on SAM without any real issues. Can solo tank Tia too, but there's no point to doing that because of back to back hate resets.

Edit: Like Sparthos said, MDT/PDT sets, barfire set for Tia+Cerb, and about 6-8 other competent players made these NMs easy and much faster to kill than using a PLD. This allowed you to camp multiple HNMs/kill at once, or kill the one you have faster to get to the next.

[Cursed]

Fairly certain I solo tanked Khim, Cerb, Saramaya, Tyger, Ultima, etc on SAM without any real issues. Can solo tank Tia too, but there's no point to doing that because of back to back hate resets.

Edit: Like Sparthos said, MDT/PDT sets, barfire set for Tia+Cerb, and about 6-8 other competent players made these NMs easy and much faster to kill than using a PLD. This allowed you to camp multiple HNMs/kill at once, or kill the one you have faster to get to the next.

what do you define as solo tanking?
you're the only melee on the mob?

and the roars are precisely the reason why any other melee besides drk or /drk would suck at solo tanking wyrms with hate resets that can fly.

[Juri_Licious]

I think he meant from a role-playing perspective, not from an efficiency perspective. And he's right, Ninjas are very weird tanks, they're even weird as melee, they're support to work covertly and stealthy, not provoking monsters and whatnot.

Pretty much this.

[Rearden]

Yes, just me on the mob, someone runs a THF mule out for TH at the end, Avatars/BLMs BRDs, RDM, WHM.

[Frost]

No one is going ot read this wall, but here it is anyways.

Solo tanking is unwise no matter how you do it. Which was the strength of using DD tanks. If hate got wierd, you still had only one person to concentrate cures on and two doing damage. Sam specifically had a lot of tools that aided in damage mitigation, as well as acquiring hate.

When you're a DD tank, you know that the monster is going to be on you and it's going to stay there. You know that no matter how hard you cure, that DD tank is only a weaponskill or a hit away from taking it back. All the While, you are a contributing force in killing the monster.

When you had a Paladin tank, you know your DD's were holding back, because as stated above, you know you're one hit or a weaponskill away from taking hate... That uncertainty made Paladins a liability. And I know, the obvious answer I alway hear to that is "Well you just had bad Paladins", and that's just fact, but the unfortunate thing is, it's not the specific Paladins, all paladins were just bad at holding hate. They had no tools, other than telling the party to slow damage. Now before your blood boils, please note that I'm speaking in the past tense, Paladins do pretty decently in voidwatch currently.

Ninja's currently are "Tanks out of Habit" it seems. Like, there's some of the old school folks that just can't let it go. It's annoying to me, mainly because SE's made it a point to give nearly every single monster in the game rediculous AoE moves now, to the point where even regular attacks make shadows, subbed or mained, absolutely useless. Ninja as a tank still works, but unless you're using a Kanagi and all but ignoring your shadows, you're a borderline liability now too.

With certain job combos, the only time I see DD tanks fail is when they sub ninja.
Take Monk for example. I had groups so hellbent on using ninja sub, not knowing that it was impeding the abilities that woudl mitigate the damage I take. Logic says: 'Well if you have shadows, you mitigate damage', and while true it goes against the tanking style of monk. With full counter gear, merits, atmas, etc etc etc, you could probably (technically) "evade" more than a thief, but WHILE evading, you're doing damage. You're pretty much guaranteed 5% evasion no matter what, and with counterstance up with atmas, and gear, you can counter probably close to 75%-80% of the hits. Those are hits where instead of taking damage, you instead deal damage. So you pop Aggressor, and Berserk, and Counterstance, since your defense is already nothing, and the less you evade, the more you counter, and voila! that 80% "Evasion" is translated directly into damage. Same dynamic works basically for Retaliation as well, give or take.

Mentioned earlier, "defense" of the job is practically useless... Sam was a good tank because instead of Defense, you have PDT and MDT gear. How much does a monster hit you for? if it's 600, I could easily shave 40% off that with PDT. But how much defense would I need to do what PDT does? On Monk, with counterstance and berserk up, I think my defense is like 18, maybe less. With those off, it's probably over 300. But the difference in damage i take is at best 10-20% more per hit, but I'm countering 50% more of them (doing damage in the process). So which would you choose? Longer fight where I take 10-20% less damage per hit? or a fight where 50% of the hits I take are blocked completely and turn to damage to the monster, thus shortening the overall fight time?

To the "Role-Playing" aspect brought up later between Ninja and Samurai...

You want to draw real life comparisons between the two arts as to which would tank better? Idk, how about we find the nearest dragon in real life and see who fairs better shall we? There was no "tanking" in real life for either art... Ninja assassinate, where Samurai Duel. Of the two they both play thier roles out in game arguably accurate. Ninjas deceive the monster, and debilitate it; where Samurai take it head on and overwhelm it with technique and skill.

[Rearden]

blah blah blah....You want to draw real life comparisons between the two arts as to which would tank better? Idk, how about we find the nearest dragon in real life and see who fairs better shall we? There was no "tanking" in real life for either art... Ninja assassinate, where Samurai Duel. Of the two they both play thier roles out in game arguably accurate. Ninjas deceive the monster, and debilitate it; where Samurai take it head on and overwhelm it with technique and skill.

Oh you
8675309

[Juri_Licious]

You want to draw real life comparisons between the two arts as to which would tank better?

Samurai are all about their honor and being able to take hits and never give up, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Also, doing whatever it takes to please their master/sensei which means going through a lot of more pain than one would think.


Idk, how about we find the nearest dragon in real life and see who fairs better shall we?

Comparing this as literal to a Dragon is absurd. And a lot of what ninjas come from are fiction as well which is already popular enough for anyone to realize that they aren't about taking hits. So if we want to get into fiction, than I don't see the issue with Dragoon.


There was no "tanking" in real life for either art... Ninja assassinate, where Samurai Duel. Of the two they both play thier roles out in game arguably accurate. Ninjas deceive the monster, and debilitate it; where Samurai take it head on and overwhelm it with technique and skill.

It makes less sense for a class which is based off real ninja or fiction ninja which have always been based on absolute lightest equipment and speed to being a shield is pretty weird.

Regardless of whatever we're discussing with Samurai, the main topic here is Ninja being a tank.

[Zhronne]

The primary reason PLD failed at tanking is because while they have hate enimity generating abitlies they lacked damage, you NEED damage in order to keep hate on anything, and they simply failed in that department.
This has always troubled me with the way SE handles tanking compared to other MMORPGs.
They should just give some passive job trait to PLD (and maybe to NINs under the effect of Yonin?) that gives them a different enmity generation ratio.
There is a formula in the game that estabilishes how "damage done" converts to "enmity". They should just reduce this conversion rate for ALL jobs cept PLD and maybe something else. This would make reaching the enmity cap harder (which is kinda easy with the damage players deal nowadays... the cap was created with level 75 in mind) and tanking more meaningful.
A tank should be able to tank because of his "tanking abilities" and his enmity, not because of the damage he deals (or not only for that).
Yet that's exactely what's been happening for the majority of NMs in FFXI.
Tanks can't generate enough enmity, DDs are much better with that. Many DDs have some interesting defensive abilities... and so DDs became tanks.
Everybody always accepted that as if it was something "normal", but to me it's always been pretty retarded and the result of some huge planning mistake at the source of it all.


Anyway, talking about pre-abyssea and even now with Voidwatch, PLD makes a difference on a lot of mobs that would be otherwise kinda hard to tank on NIN, SAM, MNK, WAR etc.

[noodles355]

SE has disagreed with you about SAM on numerous occasions.Yeah, their Artifact and Relic armor wasn't designed for tanking at all. It's not like it had any Enmity+ on it. No defensive combat skills like parry+ or evasion+ on it. It definitely didn't have "Occasionally boosts TP when damaged" on a piece. It's not even as if they have a defensive ability that can block physical attacks. They certainly don't have an A- defensive combat skill either. And a damage boosting ability that requires you to be facing the mob like a tank would to activate? Don't be silly.

[scaevola]

I mean if you take a look at an actual Ninja they are quite the opposite and focus on the bodies weak points.

It'd make a lot more sense if Samurai was a tank class. I mean they are suited in armor.

Just thought it was rather odd.


Woah, did somebody necro this thread from 2004 or something?

[Seha]

Talks about pld tanks always make me chuckle.
Pre Abyssea 90% of the parties wouldn't even start if the leader couldn't find a pld or a nin. But I guess no one remembers.

[Rearden]

The only time I remember leveling with a PLD post-ToAU was when I leveled it for Maat's jobs.

[Zemarin]

No its not strange that ninjas are tanks, they can take hits.. The only Requirements to be a tank is to be able to hold hate and to take hits. In that demeanor even a RDM or WHM could be a Tank if they could do any of that.... Also unlike pld Ninjas can also negate magic Damage. PLD could have gotten an AoE enmity gaining spell... but this game clearly is not Aion so :D

I think it's more strange how paladins CAN'T tank.

[Mischiefmaker]

PLD cant tank anymore cause DD abuse of ... well damaging..... if people would allow them to they would properly but nowdays you want fast kills so forget about it... unless really needed.

SAMs... they are awesome tankin... they can do it even way better than PLD and NIN in most stuff.... sadly the people playing SAM usually ignore about tankin and just think in kill faster(alot of times like a mater of, "i kill it first or i die"), i not tellin there dont be one or another SAM who actually does worry about tankin and avoid get hitted hard when they get hate, but lets be honest, most people doesnt.

NIN.... i remember when i was about to be impaled by all my LS partners whenever i defended NIN....tellin me they crappy, "they cant tank", "they cant damage"... blah blah blah... Look nowdays.... everyone want be NIN....

[DebbieGibson]

yeah everyone want to be nin because nothing is hard

[noodles355]

Talks about pld tanks always make me chuckle.
Pre Abyssea 90% of the parties wouldn't even start if the leader couldn't find a pld or a nin. But I guess no one remembers.90% of pickup parties were terrible because people still thought you had to fight IT+ monsters (Lesser Colibri at 52? What a great idea!). If you fought appropriate monsters and had proper party setups, you didn't need a Pld or Nin.

Sadly, none of the party makers realised this and continued to build mage + tank + 4 DD parties whilst targetting IT+ mobs. And because it was so standard practice to do it badly like this, those who could make good tanks against appropriate mobs like Sam, War and Mnk never realised their potential and assumed they couldn't tank and you needed a Pld or Nin as well.

[Seha]

At the time if you even dared to ask a sam or war to tank they'd quit the party lol.

[SpankWustler]

Our characters exist in a world where time both passes and doesn't pass, a mage can make your an individual poo so hard that he or she attains new levels of power, mute purple dogs with horns can master a virtually unknown spell, every beetle in the world shares a genetic deformity of the foot, and an entire pizza is eaten instantly then lasts for three days. We exist in a world in which this topic has 45-ish replies. Compared to all these things, Ninja being a tank is not strange at all.

[Zhronne]

Talks about pld tanks always make me chuckle.
Pre Abyssea 90% of the parties wouldn't even start if the leader couldn't find a pld or a nin. But I guess no one remembers.
Think I kinda lost myself along the way, what are we talking here? Big NMs? (so alliances, not parties) I absolutely agree, it's just like you said.
Or are we talking about XP pts? Because if that's what we're talking about then ToAU (and not Abyssea) and the new way of making XP with TPburns pts is what destroyed PLD in XP. And even before, PLD wasn't THAT common, think about weaponburns pts in sky, arrowburn, KRT burns etc. I don't really remember a lot of XP camps where you used PLD to XP. Lufaise meadows sure is one (rams/birds) and I'm sure there were a few more but it's not like "PTs didn't start if you didn't have a PLD", and you could go with NIN as well.

TBH before the Shield Mastery/Sentinel patch, NIN was usually considered a much better tank for the majority of content that required a classic setup. I remember that well because I was burning through CoP missions back in 2005 and everybody was going with NINs and have it the easy way while we were stuck with a PLD and had to re-do certain BCs countless times lol.
We didn't really have a lot of job flexibility back then, many of us weren't even 75 in ONE job xD (I was 72 when we killed Promathia :P PLD was 73)

[Zhronne]

Edit: I was kinda talking about end-game XP pts. So not necessarily merit pts but let's say at least 73+
All the way from 1 to 75 was a different story and yeah, PLD was very much apreciated there as well as NIN (especially after Utsusemi: Ni :P). I still remember dual nin/dual thf pts, with lots of SATAs goin on :D

The situation of the "Trinity System" inside of FFXI is very very odd. Currently there isn't a clear necessity for the Trinity System in most situations, but at the same time you can also clearly see that the game wasn't planned that way (there are indeed games planned NOT to have the trinity system since the beginning, but you can clearly see the difference).
So yeah, it gives me a lot of mixed feelings.
FFXI is a game planned on an expanded view of the Trinity System, but things have been balanced so bad through the years or, rather, they refused to fix/take counter action against certain habits raising within the player-base, that when they decided to do something it was too late and those habits were too strong and had been going on too long to just make them disappear, so they kinda tried to "adapt" themselves to those habits and allow them to exist, but at the same time they didn't really try to change the core of the game... It's like they wanted to keep a foot in both camps. I dunno, it's strange to see the situation of Tanks in FFXI when you compare it to most other mmorpgs, where the scenario is much clearer.

[DebbieGibson]

I hated plds leveling from 40-55 in the old way, mp sinks and practically 0 damage. I always preferred ninjas up til 55, at which point I would just take a bunch of war/nins with no designated tank, worked great.

When people refer to sam tanking pre-abyssea, they aren't talking about exp or merit parties, who the hell needs tanks in those? They are talking about Khimaira, cerberus, znm bosses etc.

[scaevola]

At the time if you even dared to ask a sam or war to tank they'd quit the party lol.

I quit one or two parties as WAR in the 30s-40s, after they asked me to tank and then got all hissy because I wouldn't use a shield or sub /NIN. Call me cheap but I still can't get around using a shihei to negate damage that, in total across three hits, amounts to less than the gil I spent on said shihei.

Fun WAR/MNK-tanking fact that is totally irrelevant in the Year of Our Lord Two Thousand and Eleven: Boost's threat component is really noticeable at low levels!



When people refer to sam tanking pre-abyssea, they aren't talking about exp or merit parties, who the hell needs tanks in those? They are talking about Khimaira, cerberus, znm bosses etc.

Yeah; Seigan's quite powerful if somewhat unpredictable, and PDT/MDT sets really shined with it. I'd be really interested to see what somebody could do now with SAM/MNK at 90+, particularly if Counterstance counters are resolved differently than Seigan counters and thus wouldn't have a chance to bring down Third Eye.

[Caesaris]

You guys are all forgetting to mention the obvious. This game was created with an Eastern style of mind. So Agility, Stealth, Speed, etc, are all heavily defining factors. Eastern oriented jobs tend to be better than the western oriented counterparts to those jobs. Ninja vs Paladin... of course ninja's got better and paladin's didn't. Warriors vs Monks for best DD... you're surprised that MNK is now THE best DD/TNK? I knew it from the first day i selected my character that this game was going to have a heavy influence of eastern culture entwined in it. Big, Tough and Bulky aren't strengths in eastern society... but small, agile, evasive and stealthy are. So that is the tank of choice. A Big, Tanklike paladin may appeal to those of us in the west, but obviously the game creators from the east prefer evasive, stealthy tanks.

Warrior was supposed to be THE tank job in this game when it was first created. But SE didn't give Warrior the tools to tank Zilart and Promathia mobs... they just hit too hard and too often. Monk, Samurai, and Ninja are what they are because of the society that this game comes from.

It's not wrong, it's not right... it just is.

[Frost]

You guys are all forgetting to mention the obvious. This game was created with an Eastern style of mind. So Agility, Stealth, Speed, etc, are all heavily defining factors. Eastern oriented jobs tend to be better than the western oriented counterparts to those jobs. Ninja vs Paladin... of course ninja's got better and paladin's didn't. Warriors vs Monks for best DD... you're surprised that MNK is now THE best DD/TNK? I knew it from the first day i selected my character that this game was going to have a heavy influence of eastern culture entwined in it. Big, Tough and Bulky aren't strengths in eastern society... but small, agile, evasive and stealthy are. So that is the tank of choice. A Big, Tanklike paladin may appeal to those of us in the west, but obviously the game creators from the east prefer evasive, stealthy tanks.

Warrior was supposed to be THE tank job in this game when it was first created. But SE didn't give Warrior the tools to tank Zilart and Promathia mobs... they just hit too hard and too often. Monk, Samurai, and Ninja are what they are because of the society that this game comes from.

It's not wrong, it's not right... it just is.

So your reply is "SE is racist, therefore ninja tank."

That's quite a stretch there chief lol.

[scaevola]

Warrior was supposed to be THE tank job in this game when it was first created. But SE didn't give Warrior the tools to tank Zilart and Promathia mobs... they just hit too hard and too often. Monk, Samurai, and Ninja are what they are because of the society that this game comes from.

It's not wrong, it's not right... it just is.


Warriors were perfectly capable of tanking pretty much everything in the game at that point. Given what we now know about enmity, they would have probably been better at it than PLDs or NINs.

Healers were just crybabies.

[hiko]

At the time if you even dared to ask a sam or war to tank they'd quit the party lol.
because people where doing it wrong fighting IT monsters and asking A sam or war to be THE tank em.
lvl75 colibri burns didnt need a tank, and if people stopped sync so Eronf/wajoam colibris check IT they wouldnt need one either

[Lordscyon]

Whm tank ftw with a lot of mp it's possible

[noodles355]

because people where doing it wrong fighting IT monsters and asking A sam or war to be THE tank em.
lvl75 colibri burns didnt need a tank, and if people stopped sync so Eronf/wajoam colibris check IT they wouldnt need one eitherSeriously this so much. Lesser Colibri at like 57ish was great exp, you could chain upwards of 10 easy and the only limiting factor was mob respawns. You didn't need a tank because they died so quick that healing wasn't a huge problem (Similar to merit PTs). But because the mobs would only give 110 or so on the first kill, idiots thoguht it was shitty and slow exp and you needed to fight IT+ mobs with their awesome 300+ exp to level quickly.
It wasn't just in Aht urgan either. I've been in a PT in Garliege Shitadel basement where we were fighting VT mobs (I think bats? maybe beetles too) and chaining way past 5 as well just because we were there at a better level to kill them quickly and get exp quickly.

[SpankWustler]

You guys are all forgetting to mention the obvious. This game was created with an Eastern style of mind. So Agility, Stealth, Speed, etc, are all heavily defining factors. Eastern oriented jobs tend to be better than the western oriented counterparts to those jobs. Ninja vs Paladin... of course ninja's got better and paladin's didn't. Warriors vs Monks for best DD... you're surprised that MNK is now THE best DD/TNK? I knew it from the first day i selected my character that this game was going to have a heavy influence of eastern culture entwined in it. Big, Tough and Bulky aren't strengths in eastern society... but small, agile, evasive and stealthy are. So that is the tank of choice. A Big, Tanklike paladin may appeal to those of us in the west, but obviously the game creators from the east prefer evasive, stealthy tanks.

Warrior was supposed to be THE tank job in this game when it was first created. But SE didn't give Warrior the tools to tank Zilart and Promathia mobs... they just hit too hard and too often. Monk, Samurai, and Ninja are what they are because of the society that this game comes from.

It's not wrong, it's not right... it just is.

"Racism is a Broken Defense Equation" would be a pretty amazing title for a post-punk album if I could travel back to 1983 somehow. Thanks for that, I guess.

[Theytak]

ITT: People turn a silly thread about RPish job backgrounds into a BG community vs FFXIAH community debate about which jobs were or were not able to tank pre-abyssea.

I love you people :rolleyes:

as to the OP, I think of it like this: Yes, ninjas specialize in stealth and misdirection, but you know what? If you've got a guy dancing around you, weaving in and out of the shadows while poking you and throwing stuff in your face, he's probably going to be a lot more annoying than the guy who's just swinging a giant metal stick at you.

Similarly, plds tank by bitchslapping the opponent, "yea, you've got other guys fighting you, but LOOK HERE! *slap*. You can't touch them til you finish me off! *gutpunch*"

Think of it like this: plds keep hate by acting like Howard Stern, while ninjas force the mob to play whack-a-mole. I mean honestly, who doesn't get pissed off playing whack-a-mole?

Alternatively: Not all ninjas are stealthy. Some are loud, obnoxious, and wear neon-orange jump suits. Believe it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

He's blending in with a crowd of Electrical workers.

Believe it.

[Sparthos]

I love how people use the "healers were crybabies" when prior to Abyssea Refresh was extremely difficult to acquire and thus the likelihood of being out of mana was high given DD took a ton of damage when you're fighting stuff like Mamool Ja that have TP moves that hurt (Rushing Drub/Slash/Firespit anyone?).

Colibri were the only mob where you could possibly hold mana and even there it could get dicey if DD couldn't drop the mobs fast enough. Nothing like Pecking Flurry hitting a zerked DD and watching as they need attention to stay alive... except you're tapped on mana because everyone is sponging.

For the average party pre Abyssea, the need for a Refresh was necessary because the average party wasn't killing fast enough to avoid TP moves.

It's funny watching some people revise history though.

[Tamoa]

Not all ninjas are stealthy. Some are loud, obnoxious, and wear neon-orange jump suits. Believe it.

Ohmygod that made me laugh! Thanks :D

[Juri_Licious]

Confirmed, FFXI Ninjas are Naruto Shinobi.

[Karinya_of_Carbuncle]

Talks about pld tanks always make me chuckle.
Pre Abyssea 90% of the parties wouldn't even start if the leader couldn't find a pld or a nin. But I guess no one remembers.

I remember about a zillion "five random DDs with no mitigation and a RDM" parties, but maybe that's just because I played RDM. When I played COR I usually got four random DDs with no mitigation, a COR and some kind of healer (usually a RDM but sometimes WHM or SMN, or after WotG, SCH).

Maybe you mean "pre ToAU". THAT was a different game, when parties needed tanks because non tanks could eat dirt from a single Sickle Slash or Death Scissors. (Heck, so could ninjas, sometimes.) And most mobs had enough def/eva that abilities designed to gain hate actually gained significant amounts of hate compared to just doing more damage.

DDs are tanks today because dealing damage is the only way to gain substantial hate in today's game. Hate control is dead, and with it, tanks that relied on it. Only the DD that accidentally became a tank while still keeping its full power as a DD has been able to survive and keep hate.

The big questions SE needs to answer about tanking:
1. Should tanks do as much damage as DDs? Regardless of what the answer is, it needs to be the same for all tanks. If some tanks have to give up damage to tank, they will be passed over for jobs who can be a DD and a tank at the same time. That's how PLDs lost their role to NINs in the first place, way back before the mid-2000s series of PLD buffs.
2. Should tanks be able to hold hate from solely their own efforts, or should hate control rely on multiple players? Anyone remember DRK/THF, SAM/THF, DDs not spamming all their abilities as fast as possible (or the healer getting pissed off at them when they did)? Again, this answer needs to be the same for all tanks; a job that relies on others to hold hate while other tanks can solo hate is not viable as a tank.
3. If tanks are expected to hold hate on their own, but not by doing as much damage as DDs, where is their extra hate coming from? Hate grabbing abilities like Provoke and Flash are drastically lacking in effectiveness in post-75 content.

SE may have made some progress in designing mobs whose attacks aren't a complete joke if you have shadows, but if they don't know what they're doing with the above questions, tanking won't return as a separate role in a party/alliance -- for PLD or anyone else. "Tank" will just be another word for "the DD that does the most damage, gets hit the most, and needs the most cures".

[Soranika]

For PLD to take the reigns on being THE tank job, they obviously need greater, natural physical and magical defense while giving newer mobs the the ability to eat right through shadows (Titan's Earthen Armor seems like an ability PLDs would have benefited from being a job ability or job specific white magic). And also obvious more enmity control... but to be fair, many support jobs now have abilities to mitigate and control hate so there's actually no reason PLD can't be tanks now still. But of course, people go for either raw zerg damage or play it safe with shadow tanks instead of utilizing some strategy in a well formed team of people who actually know what to do with their jobs to work together.

[Psxpert2011]

Ohmygod that made me laugh! Thanks :D

That had to my favorite 'Loooool moment'! XD

Believe me that even now Paladins are thee Tank in the game: Then, now and forever. Just don't remind me when I have to flash a mob just so the Ninja in the party can finally cast his/her shadows for the 5th time because one more hit from that IT mob, I would definitely be taking back the role of "Tank" and start covering other "hate-gainers".

There's good Paladins and there's not-so-good Paladins. Get the right gear, get any gear with DEF and magic DEF. They exist and Ninjas would do their part but wouldn't necessarily tank so good naked. Taking dmg is part of the claim process and then merits help with enmity and DEF. I had fun while I was a Pld cause I took dmg like no other and damn proud of it. White mages didn't need to worry about curing so much because I Did That Too! I could merit my chivalry time down some and I would never run out of magic XD. It took a lot to bring me down. Sometimes not having the right magic DEF gear would be my down-fall >.<

Yeah Ninjas, Red mages and Dancers... same story... just show-offs in my book. Just add armor to them, and you'd have a Paladin. We can now enLight,lol!

[FANCY60]

Are we comparing the tanking capabilities of a sam to a pld, please why argue off the point the op is making anyway. i believe that Ninja tanking was an oversight on SE part cause of utsu but after that they decided to run with it thats all. i remember when nin and sam were introduced and that was what i observed at the time. p/s yes sam would have made a better tank but it didnt pan out that way so like i said SE ran with the ninja.

its all about balance when square introduced new jobs, they wont know the effects it would have on the game until its tested by us. hence the ninja tanking issue and as someone has clearly stated above pre ToAU (remember no cor blu dnc sch) plds were sort after but now i have even been in parties in and out of abyssea that had great dnc tanks too