New rule: stop shooting down good ideas by saying "PS2 limitations". [Archive]

RAIST

08-31-2011, 02:28 AM

The problem is, it is a reality.

There are limits in the legacy portions of the code that SE cannot replace until AFTER the PS2 is dropped as a supported platform...and that is if they are willing to update the source and re-assemble those portions of the code after that hardware is out of the picture.

So, there are some things that simply CAN'T happen as long as the PS2 hardware is supported. That's why that response continually comes up--until those PS2 specific limitting factors go away, such changes won't happen so long as SE wants to keep platforms on equal footing and one of those platforms is the PS2.

Korpg

08-31-2011, 02:33 AM

Well, generally when I state "PS2limitations" in reality it is either one of two responses:

1) Sarcasm (generally you can safely assume this is the case)
2) Answering why the implication isn't feasible and will not be implemented.

Generally speaking, the first response is the one I'm implying, however there has been a couple of posts that the second one is appropriate. In those cases, I generally follow up on that.

AyinDygra

08-31-2011, 03:47 AM

Ank

08-31-2011, 03:55 AM

The problem is, it is a reality.

True, but the full scope of the issue isn't exactly known to the layman. We can guess and say this or that isn't possible do to limitations, but I agree that its best to let SE shoot ideas down for that reason, for the most part.

Romanova

08-31-2011, 03:59 AM

Zagen

08-31-2011, 04:06 AM

The reason players should stop posting that reply, is because players do not know the actual limitations the PS2 puts on any given proposal.

Making posts assuming the PS2 can't handle something, or claiming that there is no possible programming work-around are not constructive comments for a discussion board. Many times, I think those who say such things simply want to vent their frustration with SE for not implementing good suggestions, so when people bring up suggestions that they like less (or any suggestion at all), they cite "PS2 Limitations" to show the annoyance they have with SE giving that answer time and time again (and is not directed at the person putting forth the idea).

There is a huge list of what should be obvious things that can't go into the game because of "PS2 limitations" you don't have to work at Sony to have common sense about how PS2 technology is limited especially when its 11 year old tech. Yet a lot of those obvious things have been offered as suggestions in the past and will likely still be offered/re-offered in the future.

Ryce

08-31-2011, 04:25 AM

I, for one, am excited about the new direction of things around this game.

High-res icons, Test server access - sorry PS2, no soup for you.

I think these little steps point towards a willingness by SE to do more with this game than the PS2 has allowed them. Don't be shocked when you see Windows (maybe 360) exclusive game content droppin.

Octaviane

08-31-2011, 05:21 AM

True, but the full scope of the issue isn't exactly known to the layman. We can guess and say this or that isn't possible do to limitations, but I agree that its best to let SE shoot ideas down for that reason, for the most part.

SE doesn't necessarily "shoot" ideas down, but I do agree that the full scope of the problem is unknown, especially to the average player. SE has never come out and said that they can't implement something because of PS2 limitations, even though the majority of us know it or think we do.

SE is fully aware of the issue as well as the problems experienced by many Xbox users.

I don't see support of PS2 going away anytime soon because, believe it or not, there are stll a large number of people who still use consoles. More likely to happen is that it will die a slow death as and when players switch from consoles to other platforms. Even if SE decides to drop support, I am sure they will give adequate notice. :)

Andrien

08-31-2011, 05:27 AM

Pffft Xbox360 limitations.

Rearden

08-31-2011, 06:08 AM

The test server being PC only is a good step

Kimara

08-31-2011, 08:31 AM

svengalis

08-31-2011, 08:31 AM

I think TC fails to realize that if this game were PC only the developers would have no limitations and could do anything they wanted. Anyone ever play star wars galaxies?

Rosina

08-31-2011, 09:09 AM

I think TC fails to realize that if this game were PC only the developers would have no limitations and could do anything they wanted. Anyone ever play star wars galaxies?

not really. Game are limit to the tech that made it. And ffxi was made for the ps2. What do you guys want so bad? Ever games as inventory limits. Every mmo has an AH limit. Don't like it, or want a differ mmo. There are plenty out there, why not play some more suited to you're taste rather make useless complaints on stuff you can't fix.

Romanova

08-31-2011, 09:55 AM

Every mmo has an AH limit.

ummmm ffxi is one of the few with an AH limit.

RAIST

08-31-2011, 10:13 AM

and their lowering of the AH listing limit wasn't due to PS2 Limitations. It was an issue with their resources (memory, servers and network architecture performance, etc.) at the time. When they opened up more platforms and regions, there was too much congestion and AH queries were timing out or something--system became plaqued with errors. So they had to reduce it a long time ago when the population boomed. They've already stated they are reviewing things to see if they can increase the listing limit again after the recent changes to both the AH and infrastructure.

Probly not a high priority atm though.

Lucialynn

08-31-2011, 12:05 PM

the game is ported from PS2 to PC and then ported from PS2 to 360
so dropping the PS2 will not make the game better it wil still have PS2 limitations
It is coded to PS2
they would have to REWRITE the code from scratch using PC code
then drop PS2 support then they can make it better
but would also have to re do the 360 version by importing from PC using the new PC code

Wish Devs would put a sticky about this so these threads about PS2 limitations and dropping PS2 support would let them improve FF XI would stop
since prolly if Devs would say why PS2 support wouldn't make a difference ppl would listen

Lordscyon

08-31-2011, 01:45 PM

Well They can do the same process about chaninging paymethod method too ps2 give them a time frame... too upgrade there console too pc,xbox360 or gtfo?

Shadowsong

08-31-2011, 02:12 PM

the game is ported from PS2 to PC and then ported from PS2 to 360
so dropping the PS2 will not make the game better it wil still have PS2 limitations
It is coded to PS2
they would have to REWRITE the code from scratch using PC code
then drop PS2 support then they can make it better
but would also have to re do the 360 version by importing from PC using the new PC code

^ This. FFXI legacy code itself is "PS2 limited". To drop PS2 support does nothing to increase the game's potential. An entirely new code would have to be made, and if that was the case, just go play a more recently made MMO. The only way as of now would be to enhance the game on PC through 3rd part...... owait.

To OP: How is a "good" idea one that cannot ever be implemented... ever.

Lordscyon

08-31-2011, 02:16 PM

I know that fantasy star Universe phase out pc for more playable content and its not a good game too play but hey if a low end game can do it why not a big company like square enix not able too?

Deadvinta

08-31-2011, 02:50 PM

PS2 players should learn how to PC. You'll be happier, I promise.

Jile

08-31-2011, 05:45 PM

Krysten

08-31-2011, 05:46 PM

simple guys stop giving ps2 updates ITS A DEAD SYSTEM!!!!! forget about ps2 and make better content!!!! ppl too cheap to buy new systerms why are you catering to them?? let the system die.

Lucialynn

08-31-2011, 05:48 PM

^ To OP: How is a "good" idea one that cannot ever be implemented... ever.

even if an idea, good or bad can never be implemented doesn't mean ppl can't post their ideas of what they would like to see added, wish something could be added, should't be asked for or at least let ppl and the Devs know their ideas
might not be able to be implemted in XI, but maybe in XIV or the next MMO SE does

Lucialynn

08-31-2011, 05:53 PM

SE could make new expansions that only are accessible to non ps2 boxes.

Example, new expansion Abyssea xyz with zones:
Abyssea-Meriphataud/Abyssea-Sauromugue/Abyssea-Rolanberry Fields

Only available to players on PC/360/PS3.

It doesn't stop PS2 ppl from playing older content but it would stop SE from saying they cant add new code for PS2 limitations.

Also, another thought - why not just make ONE server for all the ps2 players to play on and all the rest of us can have the million missing things we're limited to because of the ps2 users.

Like I said, FF XI is IMPORTED from PS2, it uses PS2 code, so dropping PS2 support the game will STILL be and ALWAYS be PS2 LIMITED!!!!
Also like I said, they would have to remake the entire code on PC then import to 360 and and other systems
then the code would be limited to PC code
FF XI started in Japan on the PS2 then imported to PC
most games are made for PC then imported from PC to other systems
FF XI was made using PS2 code

Jile

08-31-2011, 06:09 PM

Like I said, FF XI is IMPORTED from PS2, it uses PS2 code, so dropping PS2 support the game will STILL be and ALWAYS be PS2 LIMITED!!!!
Also like I said, they would have to remake the entire code on PC then import to 360 and and other systems
then the code would be limited to PC code
FF XI started in Japan on the PS2 then imported to PC
most games are made for PC then imported from PC to other systems
FF XI was made using PS2 code

I understand your point and while its true, xi was ported from ps2, that doesn't mean all future expansions have to include being available to the ps2 platform.

Saefinn

08-31-2011, 06:48 PM

As said it's down to engine code, which was made to PS2 specifications and at the end of the day it's a port and it's not built around 360 or PC hardware. Of course they can make changes to the engine and we've seen it - PC and 360 users get higher resolution fonts and better icons, which is a start, but I don't see them reworking the engine from the ground up to take better advantage of 360 and PC hardware.

However, I say, suggest away - who knows what SE might do with you ideas, they might find that there's PS2 limitations, but also figure a way around it or find your idea inspires something they can do.

Scuro

08-31-2011, 08:22 PM

When someone makes a proposal intended to enhance everyone's experience playing the game, discuss the merits of the idea alone, and let SE worry about PS2 limitations.

I'm sorry we could not consider the following idea due to PS2 limitations lol.

Andrien

08-31-2011, 09:08 PM

Just took the survey on POL. I think they're watching.

survey options: ps2 ps3, xbox360 and PC.

Wonder why they're tallying up game clients.

Octaviane

08-31-2011, 09:12 PM

No new areas/content can be added due to PC limitations - We apologize for any inconvenience caused, sincerely, The Development Team.

Shadowsong

09-01-2011, 12:07 AM

what is so hard to understand about this: you cannoy make pc or 360 or ps3 exclysive content. Its impossible. The pc version IS the ps2 version, jeeeeeeez

Daniel_Hatcher

09-01-2011, 01:30 AM

what is so hard to understand about this: you cannoy make pc or 360 or ps3 exclysive content. Its impossible. The pc version IS the ps2 version, jeeeeeeez

Tell that to the new font and status icons that are PC and XBOX 360 only.

The limit on added content is down to PS2 memory limitations, the same thing does NOT exist in the PC and XBOX 360 so yes.... The PS2 is limiting the game.

As for the people saying as it was a PS2 game it will always limit FFXI: Only the core coding of the game is limited by PS2 for the PC, additional zones etcetera are not limited on the PC or XBOX version the only reason for not adding them is because they still support PS2.

Zagen

09-01-2011, 01:43 AM

The limit on added content is down to PS2 memory limitations, the same thing does NOT exist in the PC and XBOX 360 so yes.... The PS2 is limiting the game.
Slight addition/correction w/e PS2 is limited on graphics resolution as well that's why the fonts icons are PC/360 only.

Godofgods

09-01-2011, 02:05 AM

I grow so tired of hearing players on PC and Xbox saying Drop the ps2 so that they alone can have a better gaming experience. So selfish. (and i play on PC)

FFXI was built on certain systems. To ask a company to drop a portion of their loyal, paying customers for such a reason, is insane. Even more so when you consider the life expectancy of this game. Now if they were to drop ps2 on 14, or a new game they were developing, that would be understandable. New life, needs new capabilities. But it should not and will not ever happen to 11.

Rambus

09-01-2011, 02:11 AM

I'm sorry, we looked into adding this new rule to the FFXI official forums. But after looking at it, the devs realized that the limit of the ps2 makes adding this impossible. Thanks for the suggestion!

I laughed, saw the 16 likes and laughed more. then i addded my like.

It is true we may not know the exact limiting on the ps2 but we hear it so much a lot of us post it as a joke like korpg said:

Well, generally when I state "PS2limitations" in reality it is either one of two responses:

1) Sarcasm (generally you can safely assume this is the case)
2) Answering why the implication isn't feasible and will not be implemented.

Generally speaking, the first response is the one I'm implying, however there has been a couple of posts that the second one is appropriate. In those cases, I generally follow up on that.

I grow so tired of hearing players on PC and Xbox saying Drop the ps2 so that they alone can have a better gaming experience. So selfish. (and i play on PC)

FFXI was built on certain systems. To ask a company to drop a portion of their loyal, paying customers for such a reason, is insane. Even more so when you consider the life expectancy of this game. Now if they were to drop ps2 on 14, or a new game they were developing, that would be understandable. New life, needs new capabilities. But it should not and will not ever happen to 11.

normally I agree but it is almost 2012, who still has a 10 year old computer? all the computres i had expect for my first one ( super old) started to move so slow then pracitaly die after 2-5 years. the ps 2 is like 10 years old? and not really sold in stores anymore and i hear it is even harder to support the hard drive.

my mind set is this, they should of let ffxi die long time ago with the ps2 but SE can't because it was well made ( lol ffxiv) so it needs to be dropped soon or it will be a point it will die anyway because it cannot expand.

Korpg

09-01-2011, 02:13 AM

I think we should include a new rule stating that anyone who proposes rules on a forum should be taken out back and slapped with a rubber chicken.

incoming "oh shi...."

seraphimhunter

09-01-2011, 02:15 AM

Tell that to the new font and status icons that are PC and XBOX 360 only.

The limit on added content is down to PS2 memory limitations, the same thing does NOT exist in the PC and XBOX 360 so yes.... The PS2 is limiting the game.

As for the people saying as it was a PS2 game it will always limit FFXI: Only the core coding of the game is limited by PS2 for the PC, additional zones etcetera are not limited on the PC or XBOX version the only reason for not adding them is because they still support PS2.

^This. People need to understand exactly how the PS2 limits the game before complaining about it. Dropping PS2 will still leave the engine coded with some limits, but it is the PS2's memory and storage that is currently stifling the game. How do I, a "layman," as one put it, know this? They've said it several times now that the reason they have to reuse areas for their add-ons is because there is little to no space left on the HDD. And they've said before that they're running out of space for new spells and abilities, and they already have run out of space for new Auto-Translate options. Somewhat recently, the PS2 users actually already got "no more space" warnings when it was found that the game used too much temporary data while downloading updates and installing expansions. The HDD is brimming.

Now, to get down to it, if the PS2 was dropped, they could add as many new areas, etc., as the Xbox360's storage and memory would allow, which is much higher, but the core of the game (graphics, engine, etc) can only be improved so much because of the legacy code. Don't misunderstand, it's 100% possible, it's 100% possible now, but it'll require a lot of man hours. They've updated the UI and engine plenty of times before, the biggest one probably when they added Blue Mage and Puppetmaster to allow setting of spells and attachments respectively. But that was a long time ago, and they've already had to think of a workaround to allow Blue Mage to call up "extra spells" (like the HNM ones that they're planning) so UI updates may simply be getting more difficult because of that legacy code. Read some of Camate's posts about the current updates and why they can't do it (in particular, showing Treasure Hunter updates to show in the log after Weapon Skills).

If the PS2 was dropped, it wouldn't allow as many dramatic aesthetic updates as people would like but it would allow for a plethora of new ideas and increase memory and storage substantially. Personally I don't care if the game looks or feels dated but if they would be able to add new areas, ideas, and such, it would be nice. The game needs a breath of fresh air.

Winrie

09-01-2011, 02:34 AM

Yay for another thread on the limitations of the playstation 2.. we all know its holding FFXI back big time, can we let SE work it out now plz ._.

AyinDygra

09-01-2011, 02:50 AM

^This. People need to understand exactly how the PS2 limits the game before complaining about it. Dropping PS2 will still leave the engine coded with some limits, but it is the PS2's memory and storage that is currently stifling the game. How do I, a "layman," as one put it, know this? They've said it several times now that the reason they have to reuse areas for their add-ons is because there is little to no space left on the HDD. And they've said before that they're running out of space for new spells and abilities, and they already have run out of space for new Auto-Translate options. Somewhat recently, the PS2 users actually already got "no more space" warnings when it was found that the game used too much temporary data while downloading updates and installing expansions. The HDD is brimming.

I just checked on the PS2, and even with some save games on the HDD, there is at least 24,448 MB free space on the PS2 HDD without other game saves that can be kept on memory cards. I hear there are certain limitations put on individual games on the HDD, but these limits have been increased in the past.

So on this point, I'll have to say, there is plenty of storage room left on the PS2 HDD. They just had a messy installation program.

Ram (memory) is a different issue, and that's where the limits on the Auto-Translate function come into play, and it's likely also an issue for new special effects and armor models and character faces and hairstyles and such that have to be loaded into active memory to display other characters and their actions.

Inventory space was once an "impossibility", until they just made a second inventory list that circumvented the maximum number of items in a single list... there are creative ways for them to work within the system.

Alhanelem

09-01-2011, 03:45 AM

New rule: let's not all go around making up rules as if we could actually enforce them and/or they are a good idea.

Hmm, the irony of this post is stunning. :p

I just checked on the PS2, and even with some save games on the HDD, there is at least 24,448 MB free space on the PS2 HDD without other game saves that can be kept on memory cards.There are other titles in Japan that used the HDD; you wouldn't be able to keep them all and FFXI. Also, it doesn't matter how much free space your disk has, the system can only allocate a 10GB space to a single piece of software. This 10GB limit is what FFXI is approaching.

Kwate

09-01-2011, 03:45 AM

Doesn't matter what we say or think we know. However that new survey speaks volumes.

Leonlionheart

09-01-2011, 04:37 AM

Yay for another thread on the limitations of the playstation 2.. we all know its holding FFXI back big time, can we let SE work it out now plz ._.

I'm hoping the survey will come back with positive results showing that no one who currently plays uses PS2.

In my opinion, the survey just shows that they are up against a wall with HDD space on the PS2, and the game, which is still making them MUCH needed money, will soon be stopped from progressing because of it.

They are probably weighing their options; will they lose money if they drop PS2 support, or will they make money?

My vote is on make money. Bigger content means more people returning/starting up. Lets face it, if you've been playing the game in its LOWEST FORM for the last ~8 years you're bound to have that itch to come back. Even if it means buying a PC. (SE'd be doing them a favor, how can one live without a computer these days anyway?)

Korpg

09-01-2011, 06:14 AM

(SE'd be doing them a favor, how can one live without a computer these days anyway?)

Which is why they are doing the survey on PoL and not on the forums (since 99% of the people who play this game have access to a computer, having the survey on this forum would be skewed because we are on a computer asking if you play on a computer....see the problem?

RAIST

09-01-2011, 06:18 AM

there are forum members who play on a platform as well--some may be solely on a console (like Rosina, she often browses forums on her PS3), some play on multiple platforms.

Korpg

09-01-2011, 06:22 AM

there are forum members who play on a platform as well--some may be solely on a console (like Rosina, she often browses forums on her PS3), some play on multiple platforms.

But not PS2 players, which is what is obviously being polled with SE.

Their method is the most effective and least biased method of finding out this information that anyone can possibly do.

RAIST

09-01-2011, 06:33 AM

But not PS2 players, which is what is obviously being polled with SE.

Their method is the most effective and least biased method of finding out this information that anyone can possibly do.

Umm... how do you know if they are or aren't on a PS2? Just because they can post here, is not proof of what platform they play FFXI on.

And their current method is not going to track players who currently have been locked out of FFXI until their transfer/billing issues are resolved--players that otherwise would be logging into the game and participating in the survey. Their are some who have been billed, but ID's got cancelled and have not been able to recover them yet because of issues with the current system.

Kwate

09-01-2011, 07:00 AM

RAIST

09-01-2011, 07:13 AM

This ^

123456789

If they keep the survey open long enough to capture the recently disenfranchised players and those currenlty locked out due to billing/transfer errors that can't get back in because of problems with reactivation--then yes. Otherwise, it may have a considerable bias depending on how many of those otherwise active players are left out of the survey because of issues SE created that prevented those players from participating in the survey.

Alhanelem

09-01-2011, 07:14 AM

Just because they can post here, is not proof of what platform they play FFXI on.The PS2 version is so nauseating to look at... if you have access to a PC, you're most likely playing on one. The comfort of the couch (the most common argument I hear) is not an advantage. You can hook a PC up to a TV. I don't know why anyone would want to keep using their PS2 that is most likely on life support (is there a single original model PS2 out there that still reads discs?) when almost everyone out there has a PC that will run the game better. If you're playing on one of the few PS3s with the backward compatability, yeah, you can use that to access the forums, but the PS3 doesn't enhance the game in any way, still poor resolution, pixelated graphics, still only gets 10GB of space.

I know of a very small number of people that didn't have the internet before FFXI on the PS2 and got it solely to play the game. Most of those people that I know personally now play on the xbox 360 (which is better but does have some weird problems of its own)

Even though they wised up a bit in the core planning of FFXIV by making PC the primary platform. FFXI is the perfect example of why MMOs should never be on consoles.

Plus, as an added bonus, its getting costlier to make quality console games than to do the same on the PC (since PCs are used for development anyway), so after a few generations of total dominance by consoles, PCs are coming back for gaming- it's not hard to see why. Much more flexibility. Modern TVs and connections making all console advantages other than cost obsolete, non-closed system for online games, no friend codes, no BS.

If you play on the PS2 and claim to prefer it, I really can't understand why.

RAIST

09-01-2011, 07:26 AM

roughly half my LS could play on mulitple platforms...mostly 360/Pc,but there were some PS3/PS2 users still. My fat v5 still reads pressed disks fine--but it is picky about recorded disks.

The point is, just becuase someone can post on the forums doesn't automatically make them strictly a PC FFXI Client user.

Kwate

09-01-2011, 07:47 AM

Ok, if in SE's shoes, what would you suggest to get some form of a gauge?

RAIST

09-01-2011, 08:16 AM

Ok, if in SE's shoes, what would you suggest to get some form of a gauge?

Several things come to mind, one which I already stated:

1.) Keep the survey open for a long time (like 3 months or so) to include players currently unable/unwilling to sign into FFXI currently because of issues with the current system, that will likely decide or find a way to get back in the game once the new options are added mid/late fall. This is the existing playerbase versus the currently active database--ie, the current survey may only track people currently able to get into the GAME ONLY, leaving out people otherwise subscribed and not playing (or those that can't play through no fault of their own, that WOULD be playing if things weren't broken atm).

2.) Since they are already giving us the ability to opt out of the POL survey (remind me later button), it isn't mandatory in any shape or form. They could have just as easily put up a survey within the SEAM system or Forums, and post a notice on POL, the Forums, and in game asking everyone to log in to SEAM or the forums with their SE ID's and participate in the survey.

3.) Gather the information through the SE Account Management system everyone is getting forced to use. They could add a mandatory response to our registration information where we identifiy what platform(s) we play on, and then flag all of us to update our profile information in order to continue using the forums, logging into the game, or logging into SEAM to update our information. Then, all they have to do is query their own database at will.

No matter how you do a poll, there will always be an inherent bias of one type or another. The trick is trying to eliminate as much of that bias as possible. Restricitng it to the POL ID is an effort to do that, the problem is they are not likely to get an accurate sampling of the existing playerbase, as a large portion of that playerbase is currently unable/unwilling to log in to the GAME, so they aren't participating due to various issues with the state of that POL system.

They would have been better served to use the SE ID system somehow for participation, as people are still able to log in to SE ID even though they may not be getting into the game (and thus not getting the POL system notice)--but they ARE still checking the forums (signed in or anonymously) or checking the SE Account Managment System to try to either fix their situation, or checking for updates on their situation. Conducting the survey somehow through SE ID would have given them the potential to gather a much larger sampling of their would-be active players regardless if there are issues with those players being able to access the game at the moment--especially if they chose option 3, making it mandatory to declare your platform within your SE ID profile before you can participate in any FFXI content (forums, game, etc.).

Zagen

09-01-2011, 08:21 AM

RAIST

09-01-2011, 08:28 AM

1) Not everyone playing has switched over to SE ID system yet for various reasons.
2) Not everyone playing goes to the official site or forums.
If you aren't logging on to see the survey or choosing not to vote why should your opinion count?

IMO it was the most accurate way to get a quick count on heavily active accounts' console use.

But they WILL have to create an SE ID to continue playing at some point--you can't trnasfer to SEAM without one, and that was supposed to be mandatory Sept. 1. That deadline only got pushed back because of all the kickback over the current payment options. I would expect a new deadline will be set once those new options are implemented---SE is trying to move everyone into the web-based management system. You can't even manage your account info without an SE ID now--if you need to manage payment info/content ID's, you HAVE to create and SE ID and transfer your account now (unless you are going to delete everything--was the only option still in POL when I transferred mine). Once they cut off the POL biling for those without an SE ID, their access to FFXI gets cut off too until they transfer to SEAM, which requires an SE ID.

Edit:
You also can't link a token to get the satchel without an SE ID, so if you want that feature, you at least have to make an SE ID, even if you aren't transferred fully to SEAM.

Zagen

09-01-2011, 08:33 AM

svengalis

09-01-2011, 08:33 AM

not really. Game are limit to the tech that made it. And ffxi was made for the ps2. What do you guys want so bad? Ever games as inventory limits. Every mmo has an AH limit. Don't like it, or want a differ mmo. There are plenty out there, why not play some more suited to you're taste rather make useless complaints on stuff you can't fix.

Only limited by the engine. If this game were PC only they could change anything they wanted. We could actually get more storage for characters for example if it wasn't for the PS2.

Zagen

09-01-2011, 08:35 AM

Only limited by the engine. If this game were PC only they could change anything they wanted. We could actually get more storage for characters for example if it wasn't for the PS2.

PC games are still limited by their game engine... unless you shift over to a completely new engine which can be done on consoles assuming the console supports the new engine.

Edit: While some game engines set artificial limitations because of the system limitations it doesn't mean it is limitless.

RAIST

09-01-2011, 08:42 AM

And there was kickback because the current methods were a pain in the ass and many people can't transfer over because of them which would make a poll done through SEAM far less accurate at this time.

As to the token oddly enough I know a few people who haven't bothered getting a token not to mention a lot more people who have leveled mules that don't have them.

Those people who had issues with the transfer would have an SE ID though. You have to create the SE ID first, and link it to your POL account BEFORE you can attempt the transfer.

The point is, (with a few exceptions) the people currently unable to get into FFXI can't because they were transferring to SEAM and something got messed up--they still have access to their SE ID accounts. Those exceptions are the ones booted because of issues within the old system that they are still using, and in order to fix those problems, they will need to create an SE ID and transfer to reactivate their ID's (unless SE breaks with the new directive and reactivates ID's over the phone).

All account details are being forced into SEAM now--this includes the PS2 users. Once they set the new deadline, everyone will HAVE to create an SE ID, link it to a POL ID, and transfer all POL data to the SE ID...or they can't play.

Zagen

09-01-2011, 08:51 AM

All account details are being forced into SEAM now--this includes the PS2 users. Once they set the new deadline, everyone will HAVE to create an SE ID, link it to a POL ID, and transfer all POL data to the SE ID...or they can't play.
My point is simple "are being" "are going to" "will be forced to" "will be required" however you want to word it doesn't compare to right now in the present, and the best way to get people now regardless of having an SE ID or not, having transferred over yet or not is through PoL.

RAIST

09-01-2011, 09:02 AM

right now, it's more like "pee in one hand, poop in the other" to see which fills up faster.

Either scenario is going to leave out a large chunk of the results atm, simply because both systems aren't being used by everyone who would otherwise be active because the two systems are in transition. This simply is not the right time to conduct the survey to get an accurate representations. The only way to be sure it captures as much data as possible is to extend it past the point when they resolve the payment and transfer issues, and give people time to come back.

Unless they allow the time for all that to take place before they close the survey, it won't be a very accurate depiction of the existing install base. And doing it through the POL link only captures people actively playing the game within the survey window--be it 3 weeks or 3 months. Forcing it into SE ID (a la method 3) would capture details as the players update details in order to gain access to content, regardless if they are actively playing or not (like the casual player who logs in only when new content is out, completes that content, and goes idle again). So long as everything remains optional (ie, remind me later button), and players simply aren't tracked due to temporary inactivity, there can be a large margin of error in the results.

Camiie

09-01-2011, 09:15 AM

Is it really a PS2 limitation or a game engine/game client limitation. I mean, if they made the game today could they theoretically squeeze more performance out of the PS2 than when they first made the game?

I know it's pointless to discuss really. It's just that we all see as time goes on how more advanced games become as a platform ages and developers learn more tricks or get better development tools to work with. Just when we think a console has reached the peak of what it's capable of, someone finds a way to make it do more. I just wonder if FFXI really maxes out what the PS2 can do or if it simply was the absolute best SE could do at that point in time. Just me being curious I guess.

RAIST

09-01-2011, 09:33 AM

There's about 60MB of files on the PC that have not changed since they were assembled for the initial PS2 release. How many of those files are still used is open to debate though. It has been investigated by people who looked into core files for third party tools (Windower, FreeMCBoot/HDLoader, etc.) that have discovered certain registers with limits in the code (things like inventory caps, zone ID limits, Key Item list limits, etc.) that are still present in the Windows assemblies. It is generally assumed the same register limits exist in the 360 code as well.

But, there is so much conjecture/debate that has taken place the last 7 years, it's hard to recall all the specifics.

Leonlionheart

09-01-2011, 09:49 AM

To make it CLEAR:

PS2 Limitation is two things:
1) Space limitation, I.E. PS2 HDD can only allow FFXI 10gb of space. This is generally the reason why we don't see tons of new skins, new mobs, and largely new zones.

2) Core limitation, I.E. Menus and GUI, Core Mechanics (enmity). This is something that even when dropping PS2 support will always persist without a complete reworking of the code. That would also require the game's original development team's coders, of which I doubt have been working there for over 10 years. This is the reason we won't ever see if we have 1,000 attack.

Tacotaru

09-01-2011, 12:50 PM

They've said it several times now that the reason they have to reuse areas for their add-ons is because there is little to no space left on the HDD.

Pretty sure Rog showed a while ago that this was false and "reused zones" take up just as much space as a brand new zone. The reason they are reusing zones is because it saves tremendous time and money instead of having to create a new one. Hopefully someone knows the thread/post I'm talking about because I'm certainly not motivated enough to find it.

Meyi

09-01-2011, 06:45 PM

If you don't want to hear "PS2 limitations" as an answer, then don't suggest something that could potentially lead to that being used...

Really, the PS2 has provided a lot of problems for FFXI. Sometimes SE can figure it out, sometimes they can't. (Examples being Mog Satchels/Mog Sacks versus full Auto-Translate bank.) I'm not sure why this kind of answer seems so offensive; it has legitimate use, but due to its overuse in the past, it has also become a playful joke among the community.

Zagen

09-02-2011, 12:19 AM

Pretty sure Rog showed a while ago that this was false and "reused zones" take up just as much space as a brand new zone. The reason they are reusing zones is because it saves tremendous time and money instead of having to create a new one. Hopefully someone knows the thread/post I'm talking about because I'm certainly not motivated enough to find it.
I'd be interested in seeing that as the bread and butter of video games for years has been the ability to reuse assets to create "new" areas without taking up additional physical memory. Now maybe you're confusing that with the fact a reused zone would take up the same loaded/virtual/temp memory as a new zone, which is true however physical memory is the concern when a HDD has a cap due to partitioning.

FrankReynolds

09-02-2011, 01:37 AM

I'd be interested in seeing that as the bread and butter of video games for years has been the ability to reuse assets to create "new" areas without taking up additional physical memory. Now maybe you're confusing that with the fact a reused zone would take up the same loaded/virtual/temp memory as a new zone, which is true however physical memory is the concern when a HDD has a cap due to partitioning.

I'm pretty sure what taco was saying was that they copied the zones and edited them to save design time / money, but they are still stored as separate unique files, so there is no conservation of space taking place.