Ternary Flourish : post here if you think it needs to be buffed or removed

[MercureXI]

Hi,

Just tried the new JA we are supposed to get next update, Ternary Flourish, on the test server.

Like most DNCs, I'm definitely surprised that SE added that JA instead of something more useful.

Worse, this JA has, for now (no gear to enhance it, no reason to use it), no use at all.


Please post here to show SE that we want that JA either buffed or removed for something else, something we can actually use in events.


Thanks.

[FrankReynolds]

Agreed. This JA doesn't even seem like buffing it would improve it honestly. Only thing I could think of to fix it would be to make it Proc a good weakness.

[Eri]

Remove it. Long recast and not worth to stacking with ws not even Rudras. And it shares recast with Climactic.
so Dnc gets Stuff that Thf would like cause Thf gets nothing good anyway.

BUT Dnc doesnt need it *ever* so remove it. And give us something useful and more supportive. Pretty Please! =P

[Byrth]

We could wait to see whatever "Enhancing" gear they add for it, but realistically this flourish has too long of a recast and too stiff competition to really be competitive. We can spend 3 FMs on a triple attack or 3 FMs on what amounts to 4 consecutive Sneak Attacks, two of which can be stacked with weaponskills to make a big skillchain if your timing is good. Not to mention that we can use the second JA almost twice as often.

[Deathrose]

Remove Trenary Flourish altogether. The ability is utterly worthless and has no use at all. I was thinking that IF you were a terpischore wielder it could be useful for Pyhrric Kleos, but with that 3 min recast its still useless plus climactic flourish now garantees a crit hit and has a much lower recast. SE come on!! Get with the defensive debuffs and stop jerking our chains with non-sense.

[Shibayama]

This ability just needs to be removed entirely and made into something else - possibly a support flourish or a new samba as many people have requested. It was simply not well thought out at all - and frankly you should *never* need gear to enhance an ability to make it not just good, but usable at all - I would rather spend time and effort to get gear that enhances our core abilities like samba and step potency, waltz cooldown and potency or something. Hell I personally would like to see a flourish III that works like climactic except it forces a parry for every move consumed. Could keep the animation just change the effect then.

This whole "ternary" situation is frustrating because it implies that the devs not only have just a paper understanding of the job, but that they don't respect the playerbase's ideas as potentially more valid as their own at times. Yes, I understand you can't always say "Wow what an awesome ability lets do everything these guys want!" and that the devs have their own plans on how they want to direct the job but come on - the slightest bit or research or even *testing* would have proven that after the climactic buff hardly anybody uses striking so why make striking +1? They just chose to continue on with something *they* thought was a good idea, not what we had been asking for for months. We're players who play in a real environment and each job has to work hard to get respect from the playerbase in order to be included in events - unlike them we don't play on a test server with the best gear automatically had and can't just say "Oi Tanaka-san, get the rest of the dev's lets go do PW today!" Why even have these forums if they're not going to be used as a way to compile our ideas, but for us to respond to what they say their plans are and to shoot us down when we try to give our opinion on it?

If they're going to treat us as testers then they have to come to the conclusion that as actual players, if pretty much all of us are crying foul on an ability you don't have to correct our way of thinking, having somebody come and tell us "Oh no, the way we actually meant that to be used was if you don't want to consume all of your moves and blah blah" - you need to change your plans. Otherwise next update we're gunna see quadratic flourish on a 3:30 timer...

In short, I don't think the dev team is the one who should be giving manifesto's - i think that the playerbase should be the ones compiling the direction they want the job to go and submitting it to them at this point - some of us have played our jobs since when they were released so by now *we* know how the job is supposed to be played in a real environment. I get that this idea would probably also cause alot of drama with conflicting ideas and things, like "dnc needs more throwing weapons!!" but in the end most players seem to know *how the job should be played and how to use it*.

[Aiace]

Agreed! We should be getting that actually improves the job since this is the next to last level increase.

[Asymptotic]

I quite honestly don't know what they were thinking.

Maybe it will at least have a cool animation.

[Shiyo]

Remove it and give DNC more supporting abilities or a better way to heal again. Bring back the level 75 DNC playstyle, they were INCREDIBLY useful and wanted back then. Now DNC is a crap job with no purpose, DD is not what DNC is meant to be.

I also 100% disagree with listening to the playerbase, just look at temper. They want RDM to be a melee job when it's clearly NOTHING like that at all, and SE needs to completely ignore melee whiners. They should look at how jobs are played in level90 enviroments by good players to see how the job is used and focus on making the job better at that. Right now DNC is only used to solo, but at 75 it was used as a healer and support DD, it needs to go back to the level 75 playstyle if they want this job to have ANY use at all.

[Byrth]

I hate to be the one to point this out, but even if we were equally useful as a supporting job now as we were at 75, we still wouldn't end up doing things in a party. 6-man VT-IT monster meleeburns are a thing of the past. What are we going to do, team up with a bunch of friends to complete Ops faster in the CN Basement? Make people all melee the same monster in one-shotting-Abyssea? Try and melee Voidwatch NMs?

The closest we come to a situation where we could use our level 75 supporting role is against some new Dynamis NMs, and they just put out too much damage for our Waltzes to be anything more than a band-aid on a stab wound. You're better off using Saber Dance, letting the WHM cast Curaga IV, and trying to kill before the next 2-hour gets off.

[Shiyo]

Just because the content doesn't exist doesn't mean it's not a good role. The current way they're taking dancer actually gives it no purpose at ALL instead of some purpose.

A job that needs to be on a mob fulltime, with low hp and dual wielding daggers with low attk will NEVER be useful on VW/hnm/hard mobs, sorry :/ Never ever will it become useful on such things, not physically possible.

[Shibayama]

Remove it and give DNC more supporting abilities or a better way to heal again. Bring back the level 75 DNC playstyle, they were INCREDIBLY useful and wanted back then. Now DNC is a crap job with no purpose, DD is not what DNC is meant to be.

I also 100% disagree with listening to the playerbase, just look at temper. They want RDM to be a melee job when it's clearly NOTHING like that at all, and SE needs to completely ignore melee whiners. They should look at how jobs are played in level90 enviroments by good players to see how the job is used and focus on making the job better at that. Right now DNC is only used to solo, but at 75 it was used as a healer and support DD, it needs to go back to the level 75 playstyle if they want this job to have ANY use at all.

I really don't understand what you're getting at. For starters how much has dancer "changed" functionally since the 75 cap? We still pretty much do the same things we've always done, but due to all the +crit gear and atma and climactic our damage is just better. I dunno about you, but it was at the 75 cap where I was constantly turned down for things because it was my only job - our desirability for low-man groups for seals/+2 items as a blink tank has gone up - we're still just as unnessecary in the eyes of elitists who want "the best healer" or "the best supporter" now as we were back then - nothing has changed. Other than exp parties there was never a big golden age for dancers when it came to big fights like you are referring to.

Dnc sure isn't a "crap job" its just the abyssea mentality has just furthered the already prevalent way of thinking in FFXI that puts many multi-purpose jobs lower on the desirability scale - in a game with 20 jobs, they can't all be the best but they need a niche, which is what many people have been asking for. Getting rid of Ternary in Lieu of another ability, a support ability that really makes a dancer desirable in dangerous fights, or even more defensive abilities to better bolster our solo ability - *anything* would be better than Ternary just because its an unnessecary damage flourish that's outclassed by abilities we already have.

What you're saying is that you don't want the dev team to listen to the playerbase because of... Temper? I'm pretty sure that that ability was a judgement call based on the devs paper understanding of how the job works, not because of a large outcry for more damage potential. Most of the red mages on the forums have been clamoring for more enfeebling power, with a much smaller portion asking for more of the "jack of all trades" aspect, so that was the dev's call. Also the spell sucks with a 5% activation rate, so there's that but I really have not seen people demanding they made RDM a "melee job". The point is, just like dnc they're a jack-of-all-trades job that wants some aspect of "mastery" and desirability.

As I said earlier of course you're going to get people who have ideas like "make ninja reliant on throwing attacks!" There are whole threads started with trains of thought along the lines of "We have it why arnt we *the best at this now obscure aspect of the job" but the majority of players will almost always want updates based on what would improve what the job really shines at with current content. The devs should be paying more attention to that, and stop thinking that they always know the best direction for the job. Taking the job in a new direction to open up their options is one thing, but it just depends on if it's needed or not. For a support/solo/self-sustaining job, our damage ability is quite good, (hell, look at all the drama on the thief boards) so there is no need to focus any more on the "Damage" aspect - atleast not with *another* flourish III when Climactic blows it away.

[MercureXI]

For us to be "an effective close range healer" on every mob (VW etc) without becoming overpowered, we'd need something like this : a JA that prevents our melee from feeding TP, but makes our melee very low as a trade (only hit for 1 damage ?), while making us able to survive AoEs (stance à la Fan Dance, but Damage Taken- and resist status ailments ?), and of course lowering all Waltz recast during that stance. And -maybe- a Shell V-ish Samba. Should be enough to replace a WHM main heal on most mobs, though not all mobs obviously.

And that ... will never happen ... so DNC main heal will never happen again (so long colibri PTs)

[Aiace]

This may sound too overpowered, but what about a "Shadow Samba" which grants us an utsusemi like shadow when we hit the mob. It would bring us back to the front line and make us desirable. If not that, another option is a Shadow Flourish which converts our FM into shadows. The first ability is more support oriented while the second is more for a tank role. Both would also increase our solo capabilities and possibly allow us to explore alternate SJs since /NIN is a bit redundant on DNC.
The downside to these abilities (to balance them out) is that our damage output would decrease a bit without Haste Samba or Reverse Flourish. However, I could live with that, it would bring something new to the job and allow us to explore new ways to use DNC.

[Deathrose]

At one point in time I believe people were asking to make dnc a dd job.... but I think SE took that as just mainly dd and having no way to maintain ourselves as well as dd. Dont know why they would assume this but they did. Byrth has a point as much as I hate to admit. As we are currently dnc has no place in the majority of the main events going on. We may be able to deal impressive dmg now but our support role is seriously lacking. The amount we heal for in no way matters with the new nms. The dmg is too fast and large for it to even matter. Like he said we might as well just stay in saber mode. We need a means of reducing the dmg we take through defensive debuffs. Thats the key to our success, along with a way to augment our waltzs cast times and potencies, and maybe even a way to make them aoe.

[Bubeeky]

Remove it...as it stands, I never use climactic flourish. Whenever I'm on dnc, I'm inevitably in a situation where I have to stick to my support stuff, like haste samba, waltzes, steps, w/e to keep myself alive, and I don't even get a chance to think about throwing in a climactic flourish....give us something to help out that would be useful, not another climactic flourish!

[scaevola]

Replace it with a Category 3, 2 FM, 30 second cooldown Flourish that resets Waltz cooldowns, imo.

[FrankReynolds]

Replace it with a Category 3, 2 FM, 30 second cooldown Flourish that resets Waltz cooldowns, imo.

that sounds like it might be a good idea. sort of a compromise to splitting timers.

[Alkalinehoe]

Remove it...as it stands, I never use climactic flourish. Whenever I'm on dnc, I'm inevitably in a situation where I have to stick to my support stuff, like haste samba, waltzes, steps, w/e to keep myself alive, and I don't even get a chance to think about throwing in a climactic flourish....give us something to help out that would be useful, not another climactic flourish!
Nearly every situation you're in you're bleeding all over the floor? That can't be right...

[FrankReynolds]

maybe he solos a lot? Dnc is a pretty hard sell on anything that can be !!! proced.

[Shiyo]

DNC has no use in any event or anything in the game currently. It's the most useless job in the game.

[Shibayama]

Uhm... Shiyo can you read? This isn't a thread about the suposed usefulness of dnc, which you have made it clear multiple times that your opinion is "it's worthless!" - abit hillarious coming from a career red mage given the current game situation but I digress.

This thread is actually about an ability we would like changed, which had you read the title, you would have saved yourself the embarrassment of looking like a drunk straggler stumbling into a bar and screaming that the town's favorite sports team sucks.

Seriously, this was like your 4th post that had nothing to do with the topic and was just "I hate dnc" If you have any actual contructive feedback about ternary flourish or how it could be fixed/replaced by all means, but otherwise go troll some other job forum.

[Shiyo]

I did give feedback in my first post........


Remove it and give DNC more supporting abilities or a better way to heal again. Bring back the level 75 DNC playstyle, they were INCREDIBLY useful and wanted back then. Now DNC is a crap job with no purpose, DD is not what DNC is meant to be.

I also 100% disagree with listening to the playerbase, just look at temper. They want RDM to be a melee job when it's clearly NOTHING like that at all, and SE needs to completely ignore melee whiners. They should look at how jobs are played in level90 enviroments by good players to see how the job is used and focus on making the job better at that. Right now DNC is only used to solo, but at 75 it was used as a healer and support DD, it needs to go back to the level 75 playstyle if they want this job to have ANY use at all.

[Alkalinehoe]

That's not feedback, that's you subjecting people to your idea of what DNC should be then insulting the job for being different.

[Eri]

DNC has no use in any event or anything in the game currently. It's the most useless job in the game.

I Like that comment. EVER did Dynamis with a DNC? Is atm the best JA Proc there is.

On the Other hand RDM, SMN and PLD have currently no use at all.

Also good geard Dancers are among the lines of THF ~ DD Wise probably even better...

Problem is the majority of the DNC's are Forced into that DD (or Tank) Role which is totally undesireable for them.

The Flourish we are getting is a Prime example of how misunderstood DNC is since everyone and their Mom Leeches it up in Abyssea and plays DD Style.

Thats not the ppl that matter.

Most of the Dancers liked to play a Supportive, Healing and occ. WSing Role, SE doesn't get it. After Climactic and Strikeing our DD capabilitys are more then buffed.

And what go we get? Yet another DD Type Flourish which sucks on Top. (Climactic is better)

Seriously, is there anyone that plays Dnc seriously that wants to play DD & Tank ONLY ?

[Deathrose]

I second this comment lol. That is the joy of the job, I love healing supporting and dding all at the same time. If your not like that dont be a dancer. Thats what we are suppose to do, Its how we have always been in the past. Been there to support the party, devestate the mob with crippling afflictions and deal damage, whether it be directly or indirect, and look gorgeous doing it. Dancer Forever!!

[Shiyo]

PLD has it's spot secured in void watch, DD/DNC or THF/DNC is a better proccer than DNC by far in dynamis. SMN and RDM are both amazing for voidwatch as well, smn being one of the best voidwatch jobs in the game.


Most of the Dancers liked to play a Supportive, Healing and occ. WSing Role, SE doesn't get it. After Climactic and Strikeing our DD capabilitys are more then buffed.

This is why the new direction SE is taking DNC makes less sense than temper existing.

[Shibayama]

Ok, on that atleast I can agree upon.

Judging from all this, in an ideal world, ternary should be changed to:

a) A defensive ability to compensate for the fact that we are expected to stay front line the whole time to do anything. Even running in to step the mob is dangerous with a lot of high end boss monster moves, many of which fan dance does nothing to protect you from (though maybe this could be alleviated if fan dance is changed to -damage taken instead of just physical and gains some form of enfeebling resistance/nullification property).

Maybe they could add defense in the form of enfeebling flourishes like something that acts like a CCB Polymer Pump for abit - obviosuly it would need to be on a really long (10 min+) cooldown if it lasted say, 2-3 mins so as not to make subtle blow gear and inhibit tp spells and abilities useless but still, it would give us a niche of a disabler in almost any fight.

or B) Supportive abilities that contribute something unique in big fights, maybe some auto-sustaining buffs that slowly drain TP (thus giving you more of a reason to use saber dance i suppose), or maybe something that reduces the cooldown of waltzes based on the number of hits you give (Like if any of you have played League of Legends, Taric the Gemknight's heal has a long cooldown that gets lower by afew seconds each time he hits an enemy, thus making it more practical to be front-line) or something. But ternary has to go. There's just no way around it devs.

[scaevola]

This is why the new direction SE is taking DNC makes less sense than temper existing.

DNC is a healing/support job that fuels its healing and support by doing melee damage. Reasonable minds can disagree about whether focus ought to be on the melee damage (those who advocate playing DNC as a niche soloer/tank might say this) or the healing/support, but to say that DNC isn't a DD is just crazytalk. It's like saying PUP isn't a DD since the things that set PUP apart from other melee DDs don't really involve doing melee damage.

I forget who it was specifically who said this, but whoever it was was spot on when he said that it's ridiculous if DNCs complain about being unable to DD as well as a WAR, heal as well as a WHM, tank as well as a NIN, or support as well as a BRD and ignore the fact that they can do all four better than most.

I can't heal as well as a White Mage, but as long as White Mages don't become as evasive as Ninjas and have all their Cures replaced with Drains you can cast to heal other people, I'm okay with that. Dancer is fine.

EDIT: I still think that if a dancer is really serious about playing a support role, he or she should be asking for an enmity dump, because the real limiting factor on support DNC is that doing your job well means you are tanking, period, and even split Waltz timers wouldn't change this.

Concealing Flourish
1-5 FMs
2 minute cooldown
Reduces enmity on current target by 20/40/60/80/99%

[FrankReynolds]

Not that it has anything to do with the fact that this job ability sucks, but....

Maybe a Defender like stance that lowers Damage output, emnity and Defense while shortening Waltz timers and boosting TP gain would be a good move.

That would keep dancer from being able to solo everything in the game, but still make it more viable for support.

A move that makes Healing waltz affect all party members in range would be cool too. maybe a 2-3 minute timer?

[Deathrose]

I personally dont want to see my dnc turned into a melee whm. Yea... we shouldnt be able to do things as good as the other jobs like heal like whm, dd like war, or I guess even evade like ninja(choked on these words btw) but that doesnt mean we should be left without a niche over those jobs. I mean sch can play both whm and blm almost perfectly minus a few spells. Why cant dancer get aoe heals(that matter) and defensive debuffs(paralyze and such) to increase our pts survivability. Seems a little un-fair to me.

[FrankReynolds]

I was just suggesting another stance. We have Saber Dance for melee. Fan Dance for Tanking. Why not a support stance?

[scaevola]

I personally dont want to see my dnc turned into a melee whm. Yea... we shouldnt be able to do things as good as the other jobs like heal like whm, dd like war, or I guess even evade like ninja(choked on these words btw) but that doesnt mean we should be left without a niche over those jobs. I mean sch can play both whm and blm almost perfectly minus a few spells. Why cant dancer get aoe heals(that matter) and defensive debuffs(paralyze and such) to increase our pts survivability. Seems a little un-fair to me.

Because we have something better than that for improving party survivability, called "the highest threat generation in the game coupled with the second highest evasion, the best passive -PDT ability, and uninteruptable healing". Gosh, it's almost like the first Flourish we get should be a provoke or something!



We DO have a niche. We are the best solo job in the game by a mile. If you want to be a ringer in groups there are a dozen other jobs you can play to get you there. Before Abyssea, there may have been some traction to the idea that every job should viable in every event*, but it's moot now since you can level and gear a new job for a particular need in a week or two and that is exactly how it should be in a game with a job system like FFXI's.



*although I still think people only thought certain jobs weren't viable in certain events in an attempt to convince themselves FFXI was harder than it actually was but DOUBLEYEW SLASH EE

[Deathrose]

Ok some of what you are saying is true, we are among the best solo jobs in the game. However, its not the older mobs im talking about. The vast majority of the newer mobs hold not only potent paralysis moves with high dmg but also may have amnesia moves with high dmg making it much much harder for us to solo anything if they keep on this track. I dont mind soloing at all. Im not trying to say i dont like to, but what im saying is with this trend, its unfair to outcast a job because it can't keep up with the incoming dmg. Which is why I say giving us defensive debuffs and strong aoe cures would help when we are forced to have a pt. Make it to where if we wanted to play in a pt we would be more than a viable option to use, reason being why our sambas effect not only us but our pt members as well. In the stage we are in now soloing may go by the wayside since 95-99 are suppose to be the epic levels. Its how it has been for past FF anyway.

Also regarding abyssea. Our journeys in abyssea are coming to a end im afraid so a lot of the buffs we had in there no longer apply. I cant speak for the new voidwatch atma stuff since I havent experienced the atmas yet but as far as the stat boost and such those are gone and I would expect them to stay gone. So to base anything dnc can do, on stuff in abyssea is not really a correct way to look at things. Abyssea has truely spoiled players I feel. Pull them out of abyssea and they forget completely how to play with much lower hp and stats.

[FrankReynolds]

There is a good chance that Dancer can't solo a lot of the good end game gear coming up, so enhancements to party play are probably of the utmost importance. We need to be a great supporter, or a great DD or a great Healer, or we won't be coming Dancer to any of those events. The move that is the actual topic of this thread doesn't contribute to any of those.

[scaevola]

There is a good chance that Dancer can't solo a lot of the good end game gear coming up, so enhancements to party play are probably of the utmost importance. We need to be a great supporter, or a great DD or a great Healer, or we won't be coming Dancer to any of those events. The move that is the actual topic of this thread doesn't contribute to any of those.


And my point is that if you come as a different job for those events, that isn't a bad thing and is exactly how this game ought to work. If there were 5 different endgame events and the min/maxer in you told you to play a different job for each of them, that would actually be perfect as far as I'm concerned. You'd still be soloing on your DNC.

I think the real problem is that one could make a pretty strong case for WHM being the most overpowered healer in the history of MMORPGs, if not the most overpowered class period (taken in comparison with the other classes that can fill its role and the challenge of the content it faces), and so what strengths and niches an unorthodox job like DNC could conceivably provide are rendered pointless by WHM just being miles ahead in every way. You'll always take a WHM to every event, and every healer would be better off if they were a WHM. It's not even comparable to, say, "WAR is the best DD", because it's not like the other healer choices provide different benefits and skillsets that taken as a whole are less effective than WHM, as is the case with WARs and other DDs. The other healers do the exact same stuff, only worse. WHM healing needs a big nerf before DNC healing needs a buff, but this is neither here nor there.

[scaevola]

There is a good chance that Dancer can't solo a lot of the good end game gear coming up, so enhancements to party play are probably of the utmost importance. We need to be a great supporter, or a great DD or a great Healer, or we won't be coming Dancer to any of those events. The move that is the actual topic of this thread doesn't contribute to any of those.


Dancer will remain the most effective choice for soloing everything that can be soloed and will remain the go-to job for farming yourself a EAF+1/semi-+2 set and WoE weapon to start out on whatever job you might like to play. 95 cap and (dare I hope) the roadmap's claim that new NPC areas meaning NPCs in Abyssea makes me think soloing 85 Empyreans would actually be practical; we might not have the best Red !! options but we really are the best claiming job in the game right now.

If you want healing, play WHM. If you want support, play BRD. If you want damage, play WAR. Use DNC to gear all three of them. From there, go ahead and get the new gear, but given that I have seen exactly one piece of Voidwatch gear being worn among the people I've /checked on Cerberus since May and that this is, after all, still the same FFXI where I wore a Haubergeon for 3 years, I'll believe EAF+2 will stop being relevant when I see it.



But yeah, Ternary Flourish is a joke, and I've offered two alternate flourish suggestions that have nothing to do with my personal belief that DNC is fine.

[FrankReynolds]

So once I solo +2 all my gear and finish Twashtar I just retire dancer and play appropriate jobs? Never mind. That wasn't even what I was trying to say. What I was saying is that the New move that this thread is based on is crap, and I would suggest something different. Even if you think that dancer is just for solo and other more specialized jobs should be brought to events, this move still sucks. It really has no benefits. Just the 1-2 second delay from using it would probably negate all the gain from the extra hits. It really is just a way to waste some TP.

[scaevola]

Well, in my defense, I'm mostly responding to Shiyo and DeathRose saying DNC sucks because it doesn't particularly excel exactly the way they wish it would. You'll get no argument from me if all you're saying is that Ternary Flourish is pointless.

It's probably just a philosophical difference and if so I'm perfectly happy to agree to disagree, but I still say that the whole idea of "maining" a job and playing it in every situation sells short what continues to set FFXI apart from its competition, misses the whole point of Abyssea, and maybe even misses what set Final Fantasy apart from its competition in general, at least in terms of gameplay. But hey, reasonable minds can disagree.

[Deathrose]

By no means at all am I saying dnc sucks. In fact! Its most definitely my pride and joy, which is why I want to see it excel. Now basically what im say is. Why not give ppl the option of playing that job and still be as capable as if they were to come said ideal job? I understand that in some cases a change of job is in order but like in most other ff games if not all of them there were always ways of making a strong combo with said desireable job, if you catch what im saying. Whm will never, NEVER be replaced as a healer. I mean whm has always been a main healer and its only right that a whm more than likely if not always be in need. I think whm should be left as it is and just enhance other jobs to do better, but still not as good as whm. I may be contridicting myself some where here, but anyway my bottom line is make dancer a stronger option in party support and defensive debuff to make us a viable option to bring. I dont want to see all my blood, sweat, and tears just fade away before my eyes because of what seems to be the only way of doing things.

[scaevola]

By no means at all am I saying dnc sucks. In fact! Its most definitely my pride and joy, which is why I want to see it excel.

This is your problem right here. Your sentimental attachment to one particular job is preventing you from seeing the big picture, which might be understandable in an MMO where working on a job means focusing on it at the expense of others. FFXI's biggest strength is that mastery of one particular job means one tool in a potentially much larger arsenal.

Whether that's better or worse than the prevailing MMO strategy of "pick a job and min/max the hell out of it", I can't say, but I've always thought the whole point of Abyssea was to encourage players to explore flexibility by making each successive trip to 90 on a new job easier than the last. I'm pretty sure SE wants you to have 6 jobs and switch between them as necessary. I think everything should have a niche (and I think DNC's is soloing, which is valuable in itself) and the danger is one job being so good its role that there's no reason to play a different one, which is why I think WHM needs a heavy nerf. Like, a "get rid of cureskin completely" level of nerf.


Now basically what im say is. Why not give ppl the option of playing that job and still be as capable as if they were to come said ideal job?

Because doing so would come at the expense of job-switching itself. FFX-2's job system was awesome until I unlocked Dark Knight and Alchemist, which were so much better than anything else I never bothered to switch jobs again.


I understand that in some cases a change of job is in order but like in most other ff games if not all of them there were always ways of making a strong combo with said desireable job, if you catch what im saying.

This was either because other FF games had jobs that were intentionally OP as an endgame reward or were just generally so easy that it didn't especially matter what job you played.

For the record, I don't think FFXI has ever really been difficult enough to shut certain jobs out completely; you can't tell me that endgame content designed for up to 18 people to participate but routinely completed by 6 or fewer is difficult.


Whm will never, NEVER be replaced as a healer. I mean whm has always been a main healer and its only right that a whm more than likely if not always be in need. I think whm should be left as it is and just enhance other jobs to do better, but still not as good as whm.

WHMs could not stake a serious claim at being FFXI's best healers until the Afflati were introduced.

Barspells and Raise Machines until the sun goes down, baby.


I may be contridicting myself some where here, but anyway my bottom line is make dancer a stronger option in party support and defensive debuff to make us a viable option to bring. I dont want to see all my blood, sweat, and tears just fade away before my eyes because of what seems to be the only way of doing things.

Dancers do not need a stronger party support buff than Haste Samba, and having no defensive debuffs is the only thing keeping us from being Ninjas-with-a-5-Minute-Cooldown-Invincible before Waltzes are even taken into account.

[FrankReynolds]

Well, in my defense, I'm mostly responding to Shiyo and DeathRose saying DNC sucks because it doesn't particularly excel exactly the way they wish it would. You'll get no argument from me if all you're saying is that Ternary Flourish is pointless.

I just want dancer to have enough to offer a group setting. So that when its time for a VNM or w/e other new Hard content they add, and I say " I have Dancer, Thief, Ninja, Monk, Blue Mage, Black Mage, Red Mage, White Mage and Warrior... I am on Dancer right now." the LS leader doesn't say "Switch to anything but dancer.". Well, at least not all the time. Obviously no job is perfect for every event (except white mage)

[Sira]

Ternary is quite possibly dnc's most useless JA currently, i'd sooner use desperate flourish or wild flourish before ternary see's the light of day. the ability costs you 3 finishing moves which at the very most minimum costs you 30 tp not including what you can get out of them with reverse, additionally it costs you the use of Climactic flourish and Striking flourish on top of a terrible recast time. if you plan to use it for a WS which is what this seems to be meant to use for, since using it on a normal attack will only return you roughly 10tp netting -20tp to use this ability, you should be using climactic or striking, i mean we have 4 good weapon skills: dancing edge, evisceration, pyrrhic kleos and rudra. everyone of those weapon skills but rudra has a very high APR so this ability would be wasted for those. So that leaves us with rudra and i dont know anyone in their right mind who would give up climax/strike so they can lose the ability to crit but gain the ability to triple attack at nearly double the cooldown length of climax (an ability you SHOULD be using for rudra to begin with)


Face it SE, you screwed up, save face and remove the ability all together (making it possible to crit with this ability will NOT make up for it)

[Deathrose]

Dancers do not need a stronger party support buff than Haste Samba, and having no defensive debuffs is the only thing keeping us from being Ninjas-with-a-5-Minute-Cooldown-Invincible before Waltzes are even taken into account.[/QUOTE]

You make a valid point on everything you said but I cant quite agree with this part in a way. So what makes it right for nin to have a stp boost ability along with subtle blow boost, tp inhibit along with its other debuffs and we cant get a simple paralyze or slow. Fan Dance only works for pdt. Its not accurate to say invincible even though I do kinda catch what your saying. Fan dance also inhibits the use of sambas which takes a little more use out of it. Nin has a null dmg jutsu which btw is cool but still hello! that effects both magical and physical plus they get to still use our prized haste samba. In addition to this they also have our Curing waltz 3 which imo is our most useful CW due to recast, on top of their A- evasion skill. If you ask me they made nin into the image of what dnc should have been.

[Shiyo]

Oh btw, nin/dnc is a far superior soloer than DNC/NIN ever will be. You can also dual box nin/war + WHM or something and do better at soloing/faster than a DNC ever would :/

Also, yes, WHM is completely broken. I don't understand how there aren't more complaints about there being ONE viable healing job in a MMO with TWENTY jobs. No other MMO I've ever played has only had one healer, and they had far less job choices. This game has 20 and only 1 healer........something is horribly wrong and out of whack when something like that exists. There is no reason for only 1 healer to exist.

[scaevola]

Oh btw, nin/dnc is a far superior soloer than DNC/NIN ever will be.

Explain. Provide examples.


You can also dual box nin/war + WHM or something and do better at soloing/faster than a DNC ever would :/



Yes, you could do that. You could dualbox BRD/NIN + WHM and do almost as well, too.


Also, yes, WHM is completely broken. I don't understand how there aren't more complaints about there being ONE viable healing job in a MMO with TWENTY jobs. No other MMO I've ever played has only had one healer, and they had far less job choices. This game has 20 and only 1 healer........something is horribly wrong and out of whack when something like that exists. There is no reason for only 1 healer to exist.

But here's the thing: RDM, SCH, BLU, and even DNC are all perfectly viable healers. All they have to do to be "viable" is good enough to meet the healing demands of a given encounter, and they by and large are; if not alone, then certainly in a pair.

This is why WHM being so overpowered is a bad thing: either content has to be easy enough for a RDM to heal, in which case a WHM trivializes it (Abyssea), or it has to be hard enough to challenge a WHM, in which case the RDM is totally hopeless (harder Voidwatch).

[Shiyo]

Or they could make RDM/SCH not so far behind WHM that they aren't even on the same scale. Pretty much all DD's are within 5-10% of eachother except WAR and SAM slightly ahead by a bit more making them the best(outside). Healers shouldn't be so far behind WHM..but it's obvious by now SE has no plans to make more than 1 viable healer in a game with 20 jobs, so I give up.

[FrankReynolds]

Not saying Ninja is better, But I prefer it because I can enfeeble the mob and Proc yellow without carrying a million different tools and It seems to do better damage while soloing, where dancer feels a little slower on the kills to me. Just a preference though. Not a fact.

Also.... I don't know if its an added effect from AF2 +3, or just a bug in the game, but I swear I see a ton of messages saying a shadow absorbed the attack, but I don't lose a shadow. Love that.

[Juri_Licious]

This move SUCKS, and is WORTHLESS.

Give us something better that deals with attacking.

[Sira]

Oh btw, nin/dnc is a far superior soloer than DNC/NIN ever will be. You can also dual box nin/war + WHM or something and do better at soloing/faster than a DNC ever would :/


i fail to understand how dual-boxing = soloing

also as scaevola said: provide examples of how nin is actually superior at soloing than dnc is.

[FrankReynolds]

I think its a pointless argument. This move is complete crap and should never be used by any Dancer regardless of what style of play or content that you are doing. I honestly can't think of one single time when this move would be better than any other move, or even just not using any move at all for that matter.

[Richie]

Oh btw, nin/dnc is a far superior soloer than DNC/NIN ever will be. You can also dual box nin/war + WHM or something and do better at soloing/faster than a DNC ever would :/


give me a brd/whm and I'll destroy anything a nin and whm can faster lol


It'd be cool if this new T flourish had enhancement gear that made each hit of the triple attack dispel something, or or add some random debuff like despoil. We are already getting a better assasin's charge this update, we may as well get aura steal or despoil too -.-

[Deathrose]

I like that Idea... I just still dont like the fact it being on a 3 min recast and in the same group as climactic. They would have to do something like that to even have a prayer of seeing the ability used. This however would be a good way to make a defensive ability more so than an obvious offensive.

[FrankReynolds]

give me a brd/whm and I'll destroy anything a nin and whm can faster lol


It'd be cool if this new T flourish had enhancement gear that made each hit of the triple attack dispel something, or or add some random debuff like despoil. We are already getting a better assasin's charge this update, we may as well get aura steal or despoil too -.-

Well at least Thief Assassin Charge doesn't cause them to use TP and thus do less damage, but I am reluctant to mention that because SE seems to think Thief is overpowered and they might nerf it.

[Byrth]

It's actually a 2:30 recast, but it's still worthless.

[Eri]

We got a Comrep Reply regarding Trenary on the German Section.


Das Dev-Team bedankt sich für das Feedback und lässt euch ausrichten, dass sie planen, zukünftig mehr Support-Abilities zu implementieren.

It sais:

The Dev Team is happy about your Feedback and plans on adding more supportive Abilitys in the Future. That is pretty mutch a: 'It will stay. But we will add more Support' in my Book.

[Sira]

inc divine waltz 3 with 30 second cool down

[SpankWustler]

My Dancer is level 49, and after five minutes of performing simple math in my head and jotting stuff down in notepad, I know beyond all doubt that Ternary Flourish is without purpose or use. It's just that bad.

Come on, development team. You've pulled out some amazing and creative things like Steady Wing and the new Blue Magic, so I know you can do better than Ternary Flourish.

[Shibayama]

I have the sinking feeling that the community reps are gunna come here and be all like "Oh, well *this* was what we actually intended ternary flourish to be used - if you don't want to use 200 tp to skillchain but still want to do damage and for some reason!" Or something rediculous like that.

I just cant figure out the mentality behind this ability - if they end up giving it occasionally crit-rates gear it would make ternary better while makes striking worthless, but Climactic is still better solely based on the fact that it has a shorter cooldown and it lasts for multiple hits/weaponskills. As people have pointed out, not only does it do nothing to help dancer support in big fights, it dosn't even do its job of doing damage since we already have an ability much better than it on a linked timer!

[Firinia]

I vote for it being removed and replaced with something less pointless; from what I've read it doesn't appear to be what is going to happen though. Yay for more useless garbage filling up our list of other relatively pointless abilities? Or something...

[FrankReynolds]

Of all the somewhat useless stuff they are adding to other Jobs, this is the only move that has absolutely no good use. As it stand it is literally just a waste of a menu slot.

[Asymptotic]

So apparently test server feedback works like this:

*Ninja gets the duration extended on a moderately useful ability
*DRG gets the potency of an already good ability increased
*THFs get Bully adjusted but not enough to help it be any good
*SCH gets their new spells beefed up
*SAM gets more Save TP!
*BST pet gets new additional effect
*BLU gets heavy strike nerfed a little
*MNK gets consoled that it didn't get anything new

***ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ON DNC AND THE ATROCITY THAT IS TERNARY FLOURISH.
(except for that useless post in German)

Devs, I am disappoint.

[Byrth]

I've got to assume the Devs are sitting in the back somewhere going, "STFU Dancers, almost none of your Flourishes are worth a shit without a piece of enhancing gear anyway. Just wait for the enhancing gear."

[Sira]

though i cant think of any "balanced" way they could enhance ternary through gear.

[Byrth]

The Flourishes III category sucks for people who don't have Rudra's Storm, so it would be nice if they could think of a way to make Ternary Flourish help out people without Rudra's access. For instance, if it forced two triple attacks when used with a weaponskill. Then you can go:
Presto -> Evisceration -> Ternary -> Step -> Reverse -> Pyrrhic Kleos
to close Darkness with an 8-hit Pyrrhic Kleos. Outside Abyssea and depending on your attack, that probably wouldn't be so bad. It may not be quite as good as:
Evisceration -> Reverse -> Step -> Climactic -> Rudra's
but it would at least be available to everyone that has climbed Nyzul Isle.

[Sira]

i'd be hard pressed to believe that even with pyrrhic kleos ternary would be better than climactic, i personally see a pretty good boost with climactic.

[MercureXI]

Honestly, climbing Nyzul was a hell harder and was more time consuming than doing a WoE weapon.

Did 3 WoE weapons and Twashtar/Ukon, and people without Rudra definitely need to get a Daka+2, it takes about 1 week or 2 depending on your free time and your luck on coins (winning either Flux 5 or 6 is pretty easy, and a lot of people go for these on JP time)

I agree that Flourish III category should be useful regardless of people having Rudra or not, but if you are serious about DNC, it takes less time and effort than getting the whole AF3+2 or nyzul WS imo. And considering the awesome numbers you can pull out with self darkness using CF rudra x2, 1-2 weeks seems ok to me in terms of time-reward.

Anyway : SE please just remove Ternary Flourish and add that Regain JA !!!! thanks :/

[Solsticewind]

I would much rather have a Support flourish then another DDish one I well never use oh well I suppose I well just have to wait untill SE gets to adding the support buffs. With luck they well take a good luck at that enmity douse like flourish that was posted I like the idea of that ^_^b

[Soranika]

Some one mentioned something about DNC should have a natural blink/shadow like ability. That's an ideal I'd really like to see come into fruition, but I only say this cause NIN is a job expectantly hate and I don't want to be judged on just cause I haven't leveled it yet.

[Vortex]

You know what would have been a good idea? Haste Samba II an accuracy down step, magic attack down step.

any of these would be good, this is one of those abilites that will just sit in the menu untill you forget you even have it, like aspir samba.

[FrankReynolds]

You know what would have been a good idea? Haste Samba II an accuracy down step, magic attack down step.

any of these would be good, this is one of those abilites that will just sit in the menu untill you forget you even have it, like aspir samba.

what is Aspir Samba?

[Anza]

I've got to assume the Devs are sitting in the back somewhere going, "STFU Dancers, almost none of your Flourishes are worth a shit without a piece of enhancing gear anyway. Just wait for the enhancing gear."

Maybe it was mentioned, but I didn't see it... doesn't the "enhancing gear" for Ternary Flourish already exist (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Demonry_Ring)? Not saying it makes Ternary Flourish a good idea, but there IS something out there that makes it suck less. And considering that unlike THF, you can force guaranteed Triple Attacks, I could see that ring being tailor made for that purpose.

The recast and inability to use better flourishes still makes it awful though.

[Serei]

yeah this one abilty that we can do without.. Honestly I can say i use violent fluorish more then anything else.. maybe i'm just used to playing the old school way.. so i fail to grasp the need to have every job being given a multi attack.. kinda takes away from war and thf. Hell i would be happy with a dispelling flourish. Once more I have to sit back and wonder if anyone is home when it comes the to DEV's and the way they think.

[Serei]

what is Aspir Samba?

it's the samba that we we're given when dnc first came out... to help those mages that were crazy enough to do combat casting (THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE RDM'S.. as they are insane to begin with.) regain their mp with out having to rest. only thing was the aspir sucked balls.. just like drain does. and the fact that most mages dont really skill up their weapons.. (some do, yes i know this.. my brother is one of them crazy blm types that likes to melee..)

[MercureXI]

I think it was more about helping PLDs or BLUs than about helping melee mages, you know ^^"

Back on topic : I really hope DEVs will explain why they added / the real purpose behind Ternary Flourish, something like "don't worry, we have gear / merits / any other real use for this ability.

If not (most likely, since they still didn't even try to explain why this JA sucks so much as it is, after almost 2000 people reading the topic), well, that update will lose a good bunch of interest for most DNCs, I guess. If it's not already the case, I mean.

But seriously : Wasn't the test server point about telling DEVs what needed a nerf / boost / testing things ?
If they don't even listen and don't even explain their logic about why Ternary "needed to be added and needed to suck so much", why should we care about testing in the first place ?
-------------------------------

edit : just read the japanese DNC forum, at least the DEV team tried to explain and posted something after all the hate on that awful T.Flourish (they mentioned maybe adding gear to enhance the effect à la S.Flourish or a new WS that can be used with T.Flourish ... most likely a WS that can crit on its own I guess)
I really wonder why we didn't get that kind of answer in the english forums ... SE created the test forum to get feedback ... OK ... but might be a good idea to communicate once you have that feedback guys, or if you can't, just translate the japanese forum !

T H A N K S !

[Shiyo]

Aspir samba would be good if the mob didn't have to actually have MP in order for it to function.

Also lol @ trying to force the ability to be useful. Why again are we buffing DNC's DDing abilities..? Are they aware this is NOT the correct way to make DNC a useful or wanted job?

[FrankReynolds]

I think it was more about helping PLDs or BLUs than about helping melee mages, you know ^^"

Back on topic : I really hope DEVs will explain why they added / the real purpose behind Ternary Flourish, something like "don't worry, we have gear / merits / any other real use for this ability.

If not (most likely, since they still didn't even try to explain why this JA sucks so much as it is, after almost 2000 people reading the topic), well, that update will lose a good bunch of interest for most DNCs, I guess. If it's not already the case, I mean.

But seriously : Wasn't the test server point about telling DEVs what needed a nerf / boost / testing things ?
If they don't even listen and don't even explain their logic about why Ternary "needed to be added and needed to suck so much", why should we care about testing in the first place ?
-------------------------------

edit : just read the japanese DNC forum, at least the DEV team tried to explain and posted something after all the hate on that awful T.Flourish (they mentioned maybe adding gear to enhance the effect à la S.Flourish or a new WS that can be used with T.Flourish ... most likely a WS that can crit on its own I guess)
I really wonder why we didn't get that kind of answer in the english forums ... SE created the test forum to get feedback ... OK ... but might be a good idea to communicate once you have that feedback guys, or if you can't, just translate the japanese forum !

T H A N K S !

FYI, they responded in English forum too. It got buried back a few pages from the end really fast though, so people might have missed it.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11917-Suggestions-to-Improve-Rebalance-Vanadiel-s-Divas/page13

[Asymptotic]

Yeah, helps to keep an eye on the Dev Tracker since it takes you directly to Camate's responses.

[MercureXI]

Thanks for pointing this out, I completely missed that comment, it's almost the same as the japanese one, so no big news though :/

[Asymptotic]

the only thing that ever differs from the EN and JP ones is that sometimes they translate something incorrectly in the EN ones that makes it slightly more ambiguous or downright incorrect.

[scaevola]

Not to beat a dead horse/swing the whole thing back to the tangent I was on a few pages ago, but I was screwing around in Abyssea last night and reminded myself that if anybody is really at a loss for an example of something for which DNC soloing is particularly useful, I'd submit cruor farming, since we now ought to all have more stones than we can ever spend so farming without TEs ought to not be such an issue.

Cruor chains aren't hard per se, but after a few unremarkable cruor party experiences I'm pretty comfortable saying the specific order of kill one, then the other, then the first, and keep this going for hours and if you screw up you start over again, is too much precision to really be worth doing in a party.