So...Spontaneity...

[Quetzacoatl]

Who agrees that 10 minute recast on the JA is way too high?

[cidbahamut]

Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

[Duelle]

Who agrees that 10 minute recast on the JA is way too high?I'd say knock it down to 5 minutes. 3 minutes would be ideal, though.

[Lilia]

10 min. rly??

first junk 5% DA now ja with 10 min.
hope i have a nightmare

[Quetzacoatl]

I'd say knock it down to 5 minutes. 3 minutes would be ideal, though.

Agreed on this one, 10 minutes is a goddamn joke.

[Supersun]

Dear SE, do you really hate Red Mages that much?

[Ophannus]

Why is Spontaneity 10 minute recast but Konzen-ittai is a 3 minute recast? Konzen-ittai is incredibly powerful for a 3minute recast ability especially with an Empyrean Weapon. Spontaneity lets us instant cast a spell, but really; what spell does RDM have in our arsenal that would upset game balance if we could reuse this JA every 3minutes? A 1200 damage Thunder4 that takes up 1/4th of our MP? A quick raise? An instant Cure(IV lol)? I'd understand if it was a 10m recast if BLMs had it because their spells have a huge impact and deal massive damage. RDM spells are so easily missed.

[Merton9999]

Relax, we'll be able to merit it to 8 minutes.

Seriously, I would have laughed this off as useless if it were every five minutes. Ten is unbelievable.

I can't wait until level 99 when we'll get to cast our big end game spell, Deodorize II.

[Shiyo]

This ability is actually good even though the recast is long, I can't complain @_@

[Bubeeky]

isn't that what the test server is for though? to test out things like this before they become official?

[Duelle]

isn't that what the test server is for though? to test out things like this before they become official?The real question is: where can we put this feedback to ensure it is seen and at the very least considered by the developers?

We have our Temper threads here, the temper feedback in the test server forum got buried already. Don't know what else we can do other than post some more.

To recap, Spontaneity/Quick Magic recast should be taken down 5 or 3 minutes. Worst case scenario, delete something from category 1 or 2 merits and replace it with the option to merit Spontaneity/Quick Magic from 5 minutes down to 3 minutes.

10 minute cooldown is too much for an ability that seems to be something to be used whenever possible and is not an endurance/survival tool like Convert.

[SpankWustler]

A ten minute recast? That doesn't sound very...:cool:...spontaneous. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMPAH67f4o)

[Zatias]

Disgusting.

[saevel]

The real question is: where can we put this feedback to ensure it is seen and at the very least considered by the developers?

We have our Temper threads here, the temper feedback in the test server forum got buried already. Don't know what else we can do other than post some more.

To recap, Spontaneity/Quick Magic recast should be taken down 5 or 3 minutes. Worst case scenario, delete something from category 1 or 2 merits and replace it with the option to merit Spontaneity/Quick Magic from 5 minutes down to 3 minutes.

10 minute cooldown is too much for an ability that seems to be something to be used whenever possible and is not an endurance/survival tool like Convert.

You respond by thinking like a developer / community manager not a player.

The developers do not play this game, at night they go home and relax with their family's. They also don't speak English as a first language, and most likely don't speak English at all. When you combine these two things you realize that the only way to get anything to a dev is through their PR team, in this case the community managers / organizers. Now CM/CO's aren't players either, their forum moderators who's assigned job is to be a go-between for the FFXI development team and the player base.

What you have to do is make a clean post explaining the situation and asking them to look into it. Don't use gamer jargon or slang, don't flame, yell, sigh, or use emoticons. Just be clean and polite. They'll notice, their paid to read the forums (but not every post of a 30+ page thread) and if there is enough positive feedback behind something they'll take the idea / concern to the developers. The devs will go over it during their daily / weekly meetings (or whatever schedule their PM has them on) and that will be that. Just look at the DRK forum, the idea's were so off base and the reaction so loud that the CM's brought it to the dev's who agreed to rethink some of their planned DRK update. Also Dev's don't have much time, their extremely busy, so keep things short and don't ask for complicated implementations.

[Tashan]

You respond by thinking like a developer / community manager not a player.

The developers do not play this game, at night they go home and relax with their family's. They also don't speak English as a first language, and most likely don't speak English at all. When you combine these two things you realize that the only way to get anything to a dev is through their PR team, in this case the community managers / organizers. Now CM/CO's aren't players either, their forum moderators who's assigned job is to be a go-between for the FFXI development team and the player base.

What you have to do is make a clean post explaining the situation and asking them to look into it. Don't use gamer jargon or slang, don't flame, yell, sigh, or use emoticons. Just be clean and polite. They'll notice, their paid to read the forums (but not every post of a 30+ page thread) and if there is enough positive feedback behind something they'll take the idea / concern to the developers. The devs will go over it during their daily / weekly meetings (or whatever schedule their PM has them on) and that will be that. Just look at the DRK forum, the idea's were so off base and the reaction so loud that the CM's brought it to the dev's who agreed to rethink some of their planned DRK update. Also Dev's don't have much time, their extremely busy, so keep things short and don't ask for complicated implementations.

The job of the Forum Community Manager's is to address this, not the players. They do and have played this game, which is why they've been chosen to fill this role.

It is our job to think like players, not like developers.

[saevel]

It is our job to think like players, not like developers.

And that is how you get exactly nothing done and why FFXI dev's were out of touch with the players.

And no CM's may have once been players, not their just reading forums and running back and forth between SE and the players. Or haven't you noticed one CM posting dozens of messages across just about all the job forums. That much traffic means they won't be reading 30+ page threads trying to decipher what a flaming / screaming / emoing fan base wants done.

Want to get a message to the dev's, make it was easy for the messenger as possible, else they'll just throw your request into file 13.

[Tashan]

It is not our responsibility to get anything done. We are the consumers, the customers, the audience.

Should you choose to present feedback the best way you can present it to the institute of interest is to be as honest as you possibly can, in whatever form you wish to.

Trying to understand the development team is perfectly fine, but never put yourself in someone else's shoes as you skew feedback towards being unrepresentable.

Help the developers by being a honest player, not a mini-mod.

Case in Point - Payment adjustments.

[SpankWustler]

It is not our responsibility to get anything done. We are the consumers, the customers, the audience.

Should you choose to present feedback the best way you can present it to the institute of interest is to be as honest as you possibly can, in whatever form you wish to.

I'm going with this. Camate has even posted things in topics related to Thief that imply he relates the tone along with the message, so if players really hate something than that will presumably be conveyed.

[Seriha]

As long as we're paying to play, it is our responsibility to tell them what we want. Some might subscribe to the theory that if you don't like something, you can just quit, but I see such behavior as forfeiting your right to criticism as pulling your sub is basically an admission of lacking faith in the development process. Seems SE feels similar to some degree since you can't post here without an active sub. One person here and there, otherwise, won't change anything. There needs to be organization, or collective whining as some may liken to the melee movement. And while we don't know the precise dev process, attempting to think like one can help weed out the unreasonable ideas while referencing other existing features to either incorporate or adapt to an idea.

Far as Spont goes, though, 10m is inexcusable. Bluntly, I've felt a lot of the game's JAs have had too restrictive timers, thus choking off job diversity, but that's another argument.

[saevel]

It is not our responsibility to get anything done. We are the consumers, the customers, the audience.

Should you choose to present feedback the best way you can present it to the institute of interest is to be as honest as you possibly can, in whatever form you wish to.

Trying to understand the development team is perfectly fine, but never put yourself in someone else's shoes as you skew feedback towards being unrepresentable.

Help the developers by being a honest player, not a mini-mod.

Case in Point - Payment adjustments.

And in a perfect world each of us would have our own personal developer to cater to our very own wish's. Complete with rainbow unicorn sprinkles.

Now back to reality where people have lives and are working constantly under demanding timelines. Demanding stuff while stamping your feet and saying your a "consumer" will just have the cook add their "secret ingredients" to your order. CM / Dev's are not robots to cater to your ever whim, their people with family's and lives. Refusing to adjust your thinking to better communicate your desires just goes to show a selfish attitude. That gets absolutely nothing accomplished, and while you may feel a sense of smugness for getting nothing done, but doing it your way, to the eyes of dev's and admins you just look like a fool.

And btw this is coming from someone who's run an MMO before.

Protip, don't assume dev's know what player created acronyms mean, especially when they don't speak your language. Take "Programmed Random OcCurrence" for example (PROC), we use it all the time to describe when something random happens in the game, but to most developers the term "PROC" is meaningless unless they've been involved in the english speaking MMO community. Thus when explaining something having to do with proc's you instead use the term activation rate. It translates easier and will make your message clearer.

Effective Communication 101, when communicating a message always take your audience (the receiver of the message) into account. Phrase and parse the message in a way that the audience has the best time understanding and relating to. Otherwise you sound like the teacher on Charlie Brown.

[SpankWustler]

Far as Spont goes, though, 10m is inexcusable. Bluntly, I've felt a lot of the game's JAs have had too restrictive timers, thus choking off job diversity, but that's another argument.

In this case, I have total confidence that there would be no argument. The response to every new job ability has been "Oh, this is neat I wonder what the reca ... Ten minutes?! [expletive]! Really? [more vulgar and creative expletive]!!!"

[Tashan]

That response added nothing.

The only thing to say is see the previous reply, as I'd only be repeating myself.

[Deschel]

Relax, we'll be able to merit it to 8 minutes.

Seriously, I would have laughed this off as useless if it were every five minutes. Ten is unbelievable.

I can't wait until level 99 when we'll get to cast our big end game spell, Deodorize II.

LOL!
I can't really see many uses for Spontaneity right now, but like everyone else I'm hoping for a shorter recast timer.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

This needs to be decreased to at most 3 minutes or be removed.

[Darkwizardzin]

...Idk you guys might be over exaggerating. I think the reason SE made it a 10 minute timer was because you can give it to other people in your party... and it would kindof chipin your 2hr if you had instant cast every 3 minutes. I don't think SE wants you guys to be able to cast instantly very often (they think that's what fast cast is for).

The way I see it it's just a skill to help you on long recast spells like raise or help other mages cast instantly... then again I don't play rdm so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

[Merton9999]

...Idk you guys might be over exaggerating. I think the reason SE made it a 10 minute timer was because you can give it to other people in your party... and it would kindof chipin your 2hr if you had instant cast every 3 minutes. I don't think SE wants you guys to be able to cast instantly very often (they think that's what fast cast is for).

The way I see it it's just a skill to help you on long recast spells like raise or help other mages cast instantly... then again I don't play rdm so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Forgive me if this is obvious, but has anyone tested if this can indeed be used on other party members, and also if it eliminates recast as well as casting time?

[Darkwizardzin]

Forgive me if this is obvious, but has anyone tested if this can indeed be used on other party members, and also if it eliminates recast as well as casting time?

If the black mage ja can be casted on other party members Im sure this can be as well. Just in case I'll go test it out now for you.

[Anathiel]

"I know next to nothing about this ability, and don't play the job....stop complaining" really? Is this guy being serious? I can't tell.

[Darkwizardzin]

ok just did it (sorry for delay internet went out) yes you can use the ja on party members and it does set recast to 0.

[Darkwizardzin]

"I know next to nothing about this ability, and don't play the job....stop complaining" really? Is this guy being serious? I can't tell.

I just feel people are too quick to conplain about somthing. The people in this thread make it seems that the ja they just got is worthless and does nothing for there job because they think the recast is too long. imo it's not worthless and it does help the job (not saying SE can't lower the recast just saying the skill still works for what it's used for 10minute recast or not).

[cidbahamut]

Even with a low cooldown timer, I don't see it getting used on other players a whole lot. The delay spent coordinating its use would almost inevitably offset the increased speed of execution. It'll get used for nukes and raises, but that's about it.

[Darkwizardzin]

Even with a low cooldown timer, I don't see it getting used on other players a whole lot. The delay spent coordinating its use would almost inevitably offset the increased speed of execution. It'll get used for nukes and raises, but that's about it.

I can see it being used on blus too. Alot of those spells have long casting times.

[Seriha]

Mmm, instant whisker.

[Merton9999]

The only thing I've been thinking is /SCH allows for Klimaform now, so RDM/SCH would have a 2-minute long accuracy bonus to any spells of element earth, water, wind, fire, ice every 10 minutes. Kind of a mini elemental seal for a whole 2 minutes of spells, minus the weather casting time.

Not sure if I'm that excited about it, just trying to think of something mildly useful outside of fast raise and nukes.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

The only thing I've been thinking is /SCH allows for Klimaform now, so RDM/SCH would have a 2-minute long accuracy bonus to any spells of element earth, water, wind, fire, ice every 10 minutes. Kind of a mini elemental seal for a whole 2 minutes of spells, minus the weather casting time.

Not sure if I'm that excited about it, just trying to think of something mildly useful outside of fast raise and nukes.

If they don't block that spell the developers need a slap...

On a side note it could be good for an instant raise if say more than 4 people died.

[Lilia]

Mmm, instant whisker.

all 10 min. lol

[Kenthedeviant]

Agreed, 10 Minutes is way too long for a single cast spell. This will become a job ability that most of us just forget about, and stop even noticing that it's there because it's recast time is so high. And seriously... using this JA before a cure, you would end up WASTING more time from doing the JA than the cure itself wouldve normally taken.

As far as temper goes, it's even worse than this. 5% DA rate from a self-bufff spell is utterly pointless... and yet the help-text describes this as a similar effect as joyeuse. WOW LOL!.... With only a TENTH of the potency.

[Duelle]

I can see it being used on blus too. Alot of those spells have long casting times.Wait...you mean that this can be used on other people? I guess that I can understand the 10-minute timer if that is the case. I was under the impression it was self-cast.

[saevel]

Yep turns out it can be used on someone else, which actually isn't to bad a deal. I'm still thinking we need a JA / JT that gives us quick-magic, that's just classic RDM "Double Cast", but knowing how every other FF game is we'll be getting it at 99. I see this useful to used on BLM's trying to proc something, their spells have ridiculous cast / recast times, or for quickly raising two people back to back. Could also be used as an emergency "shields up" macro to get stoneskin up RFN. There are lots of use's to it, but 10mins definitely too long. Make it 5 min and we're set.

If you feel 10min is too long, make a post and explain it out, work as a community and SE might take notice and change it.

[Supersun]

I'm not sure where I think Spontaneity's recast should be. I agree that 10 minutes is too long even with the ability to cast it on other people mainly because I can't really think of any spell that if it were instant cast on a semi-frequent basis would break the game.

I mean there's a few things that can justify Manawell being on a 10 min timer but is there anything similar for Spontaneity?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I'm not sure where I think Spontaneity's recast should be. I agree that 10 minutes is too long even with the ability to cast it on other people mainly because I can't really think of any spell that if it were instant cast on a semi-frequent basis would break the game.

I mean there's a few things that can justify Manawell being on a 10 min timer but is there anything similar for Spontaneity?

In my opinion they should both be 3 minutes recast time, it'd break nothing doing it at that time and they'd certainly be used more often than I think they will be at 10 minutes recast. SAM's self-skillchain ability is on 3 minutes and that's more overpowered than these two.

[Supersun]

The only thing I can think of is Imapct being free on a 10 min timer would make voidwatch SO Much easier lol

[Quetzacoatl]

...Idk you guys might be over exaggerating. I think the reason SE made it a 10 minute timer was because you can give it to other people in your party... and it would kindof chipin your 2hr if you had instant cast every 3 minutes. I don't think SE wants you guys to be able to cast instantly very often (they think that's what fast cast is for).

Perhaps, but what would it break? If anything it would mostly be used to help our buff cycle that much further. BLMs already have Elemental Celerity to deal with their long cast times, plus they can just Alternate between Thunder, Fire and Blizzard nukes if they're really that hard-pressed to pile on one nuke after another. Not to mention, there would be some communication issues as is putting on Spontanteity on a party member for a spell you don't know is about to be cast. Depending on the spell in question, it could be good or bad. "wtf why didn't you do Spontaniety on me for my important spells!?!? Now my very minor spell recast is 0," or some other situation where a spell being used with Spontaniety could be considered wasted.

And if we needed instant cast on the fly, that's what Chainspell is there for, yeah? I wouldn't have any qualms making the recast set to 2-3 minutes for the sole fact it would help the RDM itself out for what it needs to do to free up more casting/moving time.

[Quetzacoatl]

SE, can we get an answer as to why this Job Ability isn't lowered to a reasonable recharge timer? :\

[Neisan_Quetz]

I doubt they would go for 2-3 minute recast but even being castable on others 10 minute recast is way too long, I fail to see how gamebreaking it is to half the recast since you would need perfect timing just to get it to be useful on others in the first place due to what you already said. Even if you give it to others it could be wasted if the situation changes. I don't think Plds and Nins would complain much about having it used on them though.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I doubt they would go for 2-3 minute recast but even being castable on others 10 minute recast is way too long, I fail to see how gamebreaking it is to half the recast since you would need perfect timing just to get it to be useful on others in the first place due to what you already said. Even if you give it to others it could be wasted if the situation changes. I don't think Plds and Nins would complain much about having it used on them though.

2-3 minutes is the least it should be realistically it's not that impressive of a JA to warrant 5+ minutes recast.

[Quetzacoatl]

2-3 minutes is the least it should be realistically it's not that impressive of a JA to warrant 5+ minutes recast.

I would settle for 3 minutes if 2 minutes isn't an option.

[Supersun]

If the recast time of this spell were to be 3 mins or less then any buff spell not meant to be up full time such as Klimaform, Reprisal, Dread Spikes, Migawari: Ichi, ect... could easily be kept up all the time.

Not that this by itself would break the game or anything, but this in conjuction with other things added in the future, either to Red Mage itself or other non-full time buffs added to other jobs, could easily push the game into a position SE is uncomftorable with.

Regardless though, 10 mins is way too long for this JA. Even at 5 mins I can't think of any one single spell that this JA would break. I can't even think of any future spell realistically being made that this JA would break.

Honestly though, I'd almost prefer that this JA would be single target only and reduced to 3 mins as opposed to able to be cast on others and reduced to 5 mins. I mean the number of times that someone else in the party is going to need this JA are so slim that if the only thing that's added by allowing this JA, which Rdms are going to be using on themselves 99% of the time anyway, to remain useable on others is nearly doubling the recast on it then I'd rather it be changed.

Either way, a 10 minute recast is far too long, Instant casting any one spell and reducing it's recast to 0 isn't as broken as it's being made out to be.

[Merton9999]

If the recast time of this spell were to be 3 mins or less then any buff spell not meant to be up full time such as Klimaform, Reprisal, Dread Spikes, Migawari: Ichi, ect... could easily be kept up all the time.


This is what I was thinking, and I look at it as both the reason SE might be conservative on the recast, and also the exact reason I'd want it to be 2-3 minutes. I can't think of anything super great and broken about full timing Klimaform, Reprisal, etc., but as far as the full content of announced RDM updates go I can't see anything else SE has provided that would push the job into a more party desirable direction.

I know there was some indication that the manifesto claim of transforming others into demi-gods was a mistranslation, and that it really was supposed to mean transforming the RDM. But if they actually do intend this role for RDM, adding ways for RDM to empower other jobs' self-buffs would certainly be a much more interesting way to buff other players than simply adding more single-target cycle buffs, which would end my RDM partying days for good.

Currently on a ten minute timer, I plan to use it just before, um, Teleport-Vahzl.

[Quetzacoatl]

I know there was some indication that the manifesto claim of transforming others into demi-gods was a mistranslation, and that it really was supposed to mean transforming the RDM. But if they actually do intend this role for RDM, adding ways for RDM to empower other jobs' self-buffs would certainly be a much more interesting way to buff other players than simply adding more single-target cycle buffs, which would end my RDM partying days for good.
Now this is exactly the issue in mind. How can we be able to help themselves be more enhanced if we can only use this job ability every 10 minutes? At a 10 minute recharge timer, it's just a toy- no real desired use but a situational option best used for a "spur of the moment." A 3-minute recast would put some potential toward our enhancing role that much further on a wider scale, and not just for the RDM.

Square, we need you guys to focus RDM on helping them provide a more desired party role, because at the current stage, there is little desire for us. Put a Red Mage in a spot in abyssea and outside abyssea areas and tell yourselves: "Why do we want this job here? What can this job do that others can't? Is having a Red Mage here doing too little or too much in this situation? If too little, what do we need to do to let players be able to enjoy having this job in the group? If it does too much to the point that it's not necessary to have this job here, which option should this job have that others don't to make this job worthwhile to have around?"

If this is already the process of what SE does to decide balance...well, I think we should vote for the option to demonstrate issues to SE's developers in-game on their servers.

[Ethican]

I haven't gotten to play with spontaneity yet, however, I feel it's very limited in applications. Time spent using the JA could be time used casting the spell. Barring instant impact, I'd much rather see something along the lines of composure. A Job Ability that occasionally quickens spell casting but imposes penalties to melee. have the 2 abilities share a timer and also can make them be mutually exclusive. similar to yonin/inin, Seigan/Hasso and afflatus solace/afflatus misery. I feel it would have the same flavor and similar effect. This would also be a strategic enhancement to the class with balancing between the two modes of operation.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Never ever ever ever random Quick cast JA, I'd rather have this on a 10 minute timer than dealing with random quick casts.

[Ethican]

Honestly, I don't see the big deal about random quick cast. If you are trying to utsusemi tank that's one thing, just turn it off. Instant casting buff spells enfeebles or cure spells isn't going to do anything but help you.

[Neisan_Quetz]

No, they're either going to hurt me or be ultimately superfluous as my spell goes off in the wrong gear and I either have to recast the spell meaning the quick cast was a waste of time, or I'm stuck with a gimped effect if it was a debuff. I already have that problem with Apoc atma.

[Ethican]

I've never had a problem casting in the wrong gear when spells go off :/

[Neisan_Quetz]

You don't use fast cast gear then if you're not seeing a problem when using apoc atma.

[Ethican]

Nothing more than AF hat and af2 body. However, if you're referring to spell cast, I don't use that.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You would still cast spells in AF hat and AF2 body when quick cast goes off. That is a problem and one I don't want. I shouldn't have to explain why this is bad.

[cidbahamut]

Never ever ever ever random Quick cast JA, I'd rather have this on a 10 minute timer than dealing with random quick casts.

I cannot overstate my agreement with this sentiment. Random quick cast is a terrible terrible thing for anyone who actually makes use of fast cast gear in any capacity(ie, any Red Mage worth their salt).

[Merton9999]

I cannot overstate my agreement with this sentiment. Random quick cast is a terrible terrible thing for anyone who actually makes use of fast cast gear in any capacity(ie, any Red Mage worth their salt).

I agree completely. I'd quit the job forever, no joke, if I had to live with the annoyance of Apoc atma on RDM forever. You either end up with gimped spell results, or give up FC gear in pre-cast, neither of which is acceptable.

The AF3 set bonus on SCH works out OK because I can idle in only one piece, making it impossible for it to proc unless I pre-equip multiple pieces, which I do in non-FC slots only for Reraise, Raise, Teleports, and buffs that aren't affected by gear. If quick magic were implemented randomly on RDM there would HAVE to be a way to control it like this.

[Shiyo]

Apoc isn't meant to be used on mages :p

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Apoc isn't meant to be used on mages :p

Erm.... auto-reraise is reason enough to use it, especially for a job that doesn't have reraise natively.

Also as a side note, I've used it on WHM, why you ask? Simple. If I grab hate randomly such as a hate-reset mob I'll reraise and normally need to cure again which I'll do. If I then die again before getting reraise up, I can't be raised so Apoc helps alot.

[Supersun]

Apoc isn't meant to be used on mages :p

Really should learn the difference between meant and should.

Because SE adding an instant cast chance oh Apoc, which isn't "meant" for mages, makes a lot of sense.

...Not that Shield Mastery on Rdm, Tactical Parry on Drk, Fencer on Brd makes a lot of sense either.