SE, Temper Activation Rate

[saevel]

SE,
Good idea on Temper but it's current activation rate of 5% is too low. In needs to be stronger and possibly scale with enhancing magic used during cast.

Can the community representatives please take this note back to SE Dev's, good idea but needs tweaking.

The Test servers were a brilliant idea, they allowed us to identify this issue prior to patch date.

Thanks for your time and have a good day.

[Shiyo]

Please replace temper with a job ability or job trait that enhances our enfeebles with greatly increased macc or add a new useful enfeeble(AND DONT GIVE IT TO WHM LATER WTF). Thanks~

[Karbuncle]

So basically its a spell that gives you half of the potency of "Double Attack" Job Trait?

Well thats useless. The spell may as well just say "Double Attack+5", Occasionally Attacks twice seems horrendously misleading, when all other weapons baring that description have 45%~ Dbl atk rates.

This update sorta feels like we have the COP Dev team back or something =.=a

[Supersun]

I'd be nice if the devs could enlighten us whether Temper is a static value or it can scale up with higher stats (ie. enhancing magic).

If it is static and it is only 5% then that's the most sadistic thing I have ever seen created. I mean if Corsair and Summoner can both give up to 24% DA to the entire party for next to nothing then a spell that costs MP and is only castable on yourself shouldn't be quite as...underwhelming as 5%.

I mean Haste is 40 MP and gives a 15%+ boost to your damage. It's hard to justify a spell that costs 36 MP that may not even push it past 5%.

I mean the more I think about it there has to be some way this spell can scale up.

[Seriha]

I'd pondered making a post in the bug report forum, but it's hard to decide if this is actually a bug since the spell works, but just at a disappointing rate. I'm hoping for 10-15%, but more than that wouldn't be objected to.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Would at the minimum get their attention if you post it as a bug imo.

[Duelle]

SE,
Good idea on Temper but it's current activation rate of 5% is too low. In needs to be stronger and possibly scale with enhancing magic used during cast.

Can the community representatives please take this note back to SE Dev's, good idea but needs tweaking.

The Test servers were a brilliant idea, they allowed us to identify this issue prior to patch date.

Thanks for your time and have a good day.I second this. If activation rate is 5% then it's far from ideal. If the 5% is baseline and is supposed to scale with enhancing magic skill up to 10-15% then it needs to be fixed before the patch is implemented. Definitely would like a CM to ask the devs and confirm.

[saevel]

Well to give them credit, Gain-Stat spells function off +5 and scale up. It could be possible that SE did this but somehow screwed the code up somewhere.
@300 Enh Gain-STR would be +5, which is next to worthless
@421 Enh Gain-STR would be +17 which is nice, (What I'm at now)
@451 Enh Gain-STR would be +20 which is even better (What I will be at assuming nothing else changes and skill progression remains the same).
@477 Enh Gain-STR would be +22. Now this is the cap at 99 assuming skills scale the way they have been. Also assumes no additional +enh gear is introduced.

5% isn't so bad provided it scales to 15~30 eventually.

[Supersun]

If the spell is 5% base and scales up to some respectable level I wouldn't nit pick it that much.

I'm more worried about the destination rather than the beginning.

[Vicious]

WAR gets 10% Double Attack from traits, and you guys think 15~30% from a spell sounds about right? x.x

[Seriha]

Maybe if we were proficient in two-handed weapons and weren't so dependent on a sub for added physical damage, I'd see where you're coming from. WARs aren't exactly hurting for good DA values on top of high Haste, either.

[Cursed]

Except WAR's bread and butter is Dishing Out Damage
WAR can't cure,haste or/and enhance itself or/and enfeeble/nuke the enemy.

.... Maybe SE should give WAR a 5% haste job ability so when the WARs complain about it not being on par with the spell "Haste" you RDMs may stfu and settle for your free new spell.

just go level warrior if you want to dish out more dmg. Ontop of everything that RDM already has going for it, giving it more dmg output would just be silly and broken.

Or perhaps you all want every single job to do everything, and be just the same as each other with different looking armor and different names for different abilities.

[Shiyo]

Ontop of everything that RDM already has going for it
Like?

Or are we in 2004 still? Aerial armor rotations gogo?

[Cursed]

Like?

Or are we in 2004 still? Aerial armor rotations gogo?

youtube search Avesta if you really need to know what RDM is capable of.
If you're going to argue that all that content was outside Abyssea, I will simply state

1. there are a lot of other jobs that are not needed in Abyssea - or jobs that are needed even less. (pup/smn/dnc/sch/drg/drk/sam/bst/cor) + BLU and BRD are only needed for yellow procs.
2. RDM still brings a lot to the table - Maybe they don't cure as well as a WHM, but that is something that should have been the case from day 1.
3. RDM is vital for a lot of newer content - VW.

[Supersun]

3. RDM is vital for a lot of newer content - VW.

Really...name one thing that you would invite a Red Mage over a more specialized job for.

[Cursed]

Really...name one thing that you would invite a Red Mage over a more specialized job for.

A more specialized job?
RDM is king of diversity. the jack of all trades and master of none.
I would rather depend on a RDM's refreshII than BRDs ballads or COR's evokers for a number of reason too numerous to mention.
I would rather depend on a RDM for enfeebling as well.
and while RDM isn't the best healer, it is an amazing back up healer.
also depending on situation, more times than not RDM is great at crowd control. Not the best, but still more than capable of being effective.

[Seriha]

Except WAR's bread and butter is Dishing Out Damage
WAR can't cure,haste or/and enhance itself or/and enfeeble/nuke the enemy.

Get back to me when all happen at once for RDM without diminished efficiency and/or eventual MP exhaustion. Even if a RDM focused purely on melee casting only self-buffs, a WAR doesn't have much to fear from RDM unless the WAR is poorly equipped. Nobody's saying a WAR shouldn't do more damage, but put the two side-by-side and the gap will be way too big for a job that was otherwise portrayed as one able to fill in a party's blanks.

But let's throw a question out there. Does BLU offend you? For no MP cost they can also receive 10% DA all the time. Ideally they should be sitting on 10% DA from gear on top of that (Brutal, Atheling, Twilight), maybe another 10% with a +2 Khanda. They can Refresh themselves, Haste themselves, Cure themselves and others, Stun, lob MP efficient 'nukes', Erase-ga, create self-skillchains, AoE Sleep, and then some. They also have better gear, better WS selection, and access other traits aside from DA like DW or Store TP without RDM's sub restrictions. Are you parading around claiming BLU broken? Are you actually inviting one to everything you do, potential procs aside? If not, why the freak out?

Like it or not, BLU's set a standard of hybrid classes that RDM should most closely match. The two are still very much capable of being similar, but different, just as WAR and MNK can be flavors of DD. "But set points!" All that I mentioned earlier? Yeah, that's part of my standard build and I'll be getting more set points to play with come patch. And knowing all that and some of BLU's base design choices, it's not hard to see that the job was perhaps SE's second chance at RDM. However, that is by no means justification for RDM to be swept under the rug and forgotten, or irrationally feared for some poor game design features people opted to exploit.

[SpankWustler]

What's the duration of Temper? At just 5% Double Attack, it very seems possible to actually lose attack rounds by taking the time to cast such a spell.

Edit: I think Red Mage's soloing capabilities in 2006 are probably the worst possible way to measure how the job should be updated today. The game is totally different nowadays.

[Shiyo]

youtube search Avesta if you really need to know what RDM is capable of.
If you're going to argue that all that content was outside Abyssea, I will simply state

1. there are a lot of other jobs that are not needed in Abyssea - or jobs that are needed even less. (pup/smn/dnc/sch/drg/drk/sam/bst/cor) + BLU and BRD are only needed for yellow procs.
2. RDM still brings a lot to the table - Maybe they don't cure as well as a WHM, but that is something that should have been the case from day 1.
3. RDM is vital for a lot of newer content - VW.
I just did voidwatch as a RDM, cure4 is crap and not good enough to heal at all, we need to bring multiple WHM's for real healing. My only role is to apply saboteur slow2,addle(lol whm can do this next level cap increase) refresh2 the whm's/blms, and haste people.

RDM is much better and more fun outside, I don't care about abyssea, I only play ninja inside there and straight up refuse to play RDM inside there. Being worthless isn't fun. Still doesn't change the fact RDM isn't very good outside, and still an incredibly weak healer. We NEED another cure, it can be cure4 2.0 or cure5 -1, I don't care, it's completely insane a blu gets cure5 -1 and curaga4 -1 while SCH and RDM is still using cure3/4. Cure3 isn't even worth the button press anymore........

Temper need to be castable on party members, we need more buffs for party members, we need a new cure tier, or just a copy of cure4 that we can press to spam 2 cure4's back to back if they're sooo afraid of giving sch and RDM a cure5 for some unknown reason. We also need more enfeebles or monsters that aren't immune(or very very resistant) to ANY of our enfeebles.

Also, I guess it is 2004 if you're saying "SEARCH AVESTA". Well, you can dual box or duo/trio all those NM's he's soloing in 2004 right now in less than 10 mins, so who cares.

[Seriha]

3 minutes, can be boosted by Composure and other gear.

[Supersun]

What's the duration of Temper? At just 5% Double Attack, it very seems possible to actually lose attack rounds by taking the time to cast such a spell.

Same as the other 90% of Rdm's enhancing spells.

[SpankWustler]

Figuring in Composure's bonus to the duration, at 5% the spell easily remains worth casting even at capped delay reduction. I didn't take double attack from other sources or equipment that lengthens spell durations into account, but since the result is just "yes" or "no" and the spell sucks either way, I figure that's not too important.

[saevel]

Well with composure, AF+2 boots and cape we're talking the same duration as haste.
180 * 1.3 * 3.0 = 702 seconds or 11:42. Even at 5% you'd still gain attack rounds, especially if setup a macro that applied your combat related buffs at once.

/ma Phalanx <me> <wait 6> (can't remember exact wait I used)
/ma Gain-STR <me> <wait 7>
/ma Temper <me>
<Insert any other needed buffs here>

I do this whenever an opertunity presents itself, either before / after a fight or during a natural pause in the combat. Contrary to what some of the DD's would have people believe, we don't fight brick wall's with infinite HP for loot.

[Tashan]

But does Temper stack with equipment/job traits?

If so, I cannot see a problem with 5% rate.

DA Khanda +2 = 10%
Atheling Mantle = +3%
Brutal Earring = +5%
Calmecac Trousers = +3%

RDM already has 20% in respectable equipment DA.

Potentially 30% if one opts to /WAR for the job trait (arguably not).

With DA Khanda +2 being upgradable in the next update for more DA, Temper's 5% put's RDM closer to the 50% cap and is quite respectable.

[SpankWustler]

Contrary to what some of the DD's would have people believe, we don't fight brick wall's with infinite HP for loot.

This statement is true, well, other than the bit about those conspiracy theories you like to entertain. Most theory-crafting doesn't account for monsters dying because it's too big a variable, and this can be a problem.

I was expecting Temper to come out as a gain because of the huge duration Red Mage can currently achieve, even though some things (Steps, Blue Magic on high defense monsters) can come out as a loss. I would have been very surprised if it didn't, but maybe that would be something else to mention when asking for the spell to be adjusted.

As it is now, I can't help but wonder if either the base rate or the skill bonus have been left out. This is the case with Soothing Ruby, so maybe the same mistake happened with Temper. 5% seems very low, especially when the value could be 25% or more without any danger of making Red Mage the kind of melee some of you folks want.

[SpankWustler]

But does Temper stack with equipment/job traits?

If so, I cannot see a problem with 5% rate.

DA Khanda +2 = 10%
Atheling Mantle = +3%
Brutal Earring = +5%
Calmecac Trousers = +3%

RDM already has 20% in respectable equipment DA.

Potentially 30% if one opts to /WAR for the job trait (arguably not).

With DA Khanda +2 being upgradable in the next update for more DA, Temper's 5% put's RDM closer to the 50% cap and is quite respectable.

Since it's not possible to Double Attack on a Double Attack, getting closer to the cap would just make the spell's effect on attack rate relatively less. I see where you're coming from, though, since a 50% cap implies that 25+~35+% is a lot of Double Attack.

[Seriha]

But does Temper stack with equipment/job traits?

If so, I cannot see a problem with 5% rate.

DA Khanda +2 = 10%
Atheling Mantle = +3%
Brutal Earring = +5%
Calmecac Trousers = +3%

RDM already has 20% in respectable equipment DA.

Potentially 30% if one opts to /WAR for the job trait (arguably not).

With DA Khanda +2 being upgradable in the next update for more DA, Temper's 5% put's RDM closer to the 50% cap and is quite respectable.

Until the update goes live and people can use their parsers and such again, this'll be hard to test. As is, the proposition of a RDM subbing WAR makes some froth at the mouth, especially in a party setting.

[saevel]

But does Temper stack with equipment/job traits?

If so, I cannot see a problem with 5% rate.

DA Khanda +2 = 10%
Atheling Mantle = +3%
Brutal Earring = +5%
Calmecac Trousers = +3%

RDM already has 20% in respectable equipment DA.

Potentially 30% if one opts to /WAR for the job trait (arguably not).

With DA Khanda +2 being upgradable in the next update for more DA, Temper's 5% put's RDM closer to the 50% cap and is quite respectable.

You realize that DA experiences decreasing returns right?

Going from 0 to 5 DA is 105/100 = 5% improvement.

Going from 21 to 26 is,
126/121 = 1.0413, 1 4.1% improvement.

The presence of additional DA options does absolutely nothing for disposition of Temper's potency.

Your using 36mp and a few seconds to cast a spell that will give you a 4.1% improvement over 11:45min at best. More importantly is this is supposed to be a RDM "melee" update, and it's looking like complete sh!t so far. Worth casting yes, but barely. It's a brutal earring in spell form.

That being said, if SE just hasn't added scaling yet and we're really seeing the absolute bottom of the spell, then it's not so bad. Gain spells start at +5, so there is light at the end of the tunnel.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

What's the duration of Temper? At just 5% Double Attack, it very seems possible to actually lose attack rounds by taking the time to cast such a spell.

Edit: I think Red Mage's soloing capabilities in 2006 are probably the worst possible way to measure how the job should be updated today. The game is totally different nowadays.

3 minutes naturally, 9 minutes with composure.

ETA: Wow, the forums are messed up for me, keeps changing the order the posts appear in.

[Tashan]

Until the update goes live and people can use their parsers and such again, this'll be hard to test. As is, the proposition of a RDM subbing WAR makes some froth at the mouth, especially in a party setting.

Lol anti-rdm melee antics aren't as dramatic as people like to make out to be.

It's only when they do it wrong or over-exaggerate do peoPle react.

[Tashan]

You realize that DA experiences decreasing returns right?

Going from 0 to 5 DA is 105/100 = 5% improvement.

Going from 21 to 26 is,
126/121 = 1.0413, 1 4.1% improvement.

The presence of additional DA options does absolutely nothing for disposition of Temper's potency.

Your using 36mp and a few seconds to cast a spell that will give you a 4.1% improvement over 11:45min at best. More importantly is this is supposed to be a RDM "melee" update, and it's looking like complete sh!t so far. Worth casting yes, but barely. It's a brutal earring in spell form.

That being said, if SE just hasn't added scaling yet and we're really seeing the absolute bottom of the spell, then it's not so bad. Gain spells start at +5, so there is light at the end of the tunnel..

1). Yes, double attack experiences decreasing returns. As does Haste. As does Dual-Wield. As does nearly every stat in the game.

"Double Attack has decreasing returns" is not an argument against it, it's an acknowledgement. You are still getting a positive return that is unique to the job.

It may not be flashy but it's still an increase. If that had been a piece of equipment people would be paying millions for it.

2) 36 MP is cheap and negligible.

[cidbahamut]

I'm reasonably certain that Haste experiences increasing returns.

[SpankWustler]

Yes, double attack experiences decreasing returns. As does Haste. As does Dual-Wield. As does nearly every stat in the game.

I think you phrased something poorly here, unless you're referring to a different kind of decreasing return than what I'm thinking of.

[Cursed]

Haste experiences increasing returns.
TA/DA experience diminishing returns.
Dual Wield and Martial Arts traits are decreased delay between swings.

[Camate]

Thanks for all your feedback on Temper.

Based on all the feedback we have received on the forum and the test server, we will be making it so Temper’s activation rate increases with higher enhancing magic skill. (Of course there will be a cap)

In regards to the effect, when considering that the double attack can be stacked with other things besides just enhancing magic skill, such as equipment, etc., and can also be used with en-spells, we set it accordingly.

[Seriha]

With it being a magical equivalent of Double Attack, a cap is understandable with other gear added on top. 10-15% would be a number many of us would be comfortable with with that in mind, but more won't be argued against. Hopefully the devs will wind up thinking similarly.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

With it being a magical equivalent of Double Attack, a cap is understandable with other gear added on top. 10-15% would be a number many of us would be comfortable with with that in mind, but more won't be argued against. Hopefully the devs will wind up thinking similarly.

Personally I'd say 20% simply due to the fact even with that percentage it's hardly going to make RDM some melee crazy fighter.

[Shiyo]

Thanks for all your feedback on Temper.

Based on all the feedback we have received on the forum and the test server, we will be making it so Temper’s activation rate increases with higher enhancing magic skill. (Of course there will be a cap)

In regards to the effect, when considering that the double attack can be stacked with other things besides just enhancing magic skill, such as equipment, etc., and can also be used with en-spells, we set it accordingly.
Waste of dev time, RDM is not a melee job :/

Please focus on the backline aspects of RDM, work on our enfeebles, our cures, and our party enhancing buffs. Can you inform the dev team of that? A RDM will never, ever, ever be invited for a real event to melee, they are invited to be a support job, please focus on this.

[Hyrist]

1). Yes, double attack experiences decreasing returns. As does Haste. As does Dual-Wield. As does nearly every stat in the game.

No... Really no.

Haste receives exponential returns, due to how it effects attack delay.

Dual Wield receives decreasing returns because it reduces TP per hit gain and contributes to the overall 'delay reduction' cap. Making it a soft competitor to haste.

Double Attack is a flat rate of return. 5% double attack means 5% of your attacks that strike normally will attack twice instead. This works globally across the board.

You cannot lump these together, at all.


Waste of dev time, RDM is not a melee job :/

Correct, it is a Hybrid job. {Please check it.}

If you wish to focus entirely on the mage aspects of the job, you are free to do so. But I do not agree in harping the Developers for giving attention to the aspects of a job class long neglected in the development cycle. High end-game play is not the sole content of the game nor should it be regarded as such.

Additionally, what is this 'invite' you speak of? Most events that occur are done within groupings of friends or associates. In which case Meleeing is an option depending on the acceptability of your peers in relation to the difficulty of the event.

You also assume the development team isn't multitasking other developments at well, to which I say you're both incorrect and impatient. I'd rather them work on both aspects of the job with equal care and consideration.

Temper was so far, done poorly, would you like them to be screwing up the support aspects like that as well? If nothing else, consider these buffs as training for what they should be doing with our support role.

In the meanwhile, you may stow away your absolutist ideal. We're still not sure how the entirety of the changes coming down the pipeline will effect RDM and job/endgame dynamics as whole.

[FrankReynolds]

Waste of dev time, RDM is not a melee job :/

Please focus on the backline aspects of RDM, work on our enfeebles, our cures, and our party enhancing buffs. Can you inform the dev team of that? A RDM will never, ever, ever be invited for a real event to melee, they are invited to be a support job, please focus on this.

I agree, this is a nice spell, but totally unnecessary. They need to add spells that get Red Mages "enfeebling master" role back before they add things like this.

FFXI needs some big dot spells, and some enfeebles need to be fixed / added. Melee is IMHO what Red Mage should be able to do to solo. Not its roll in parties.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I agree, this is a nice spell, but totally unnecessary. They need to add spells that get Red Mages "enfeebling master" role back before they add things like this.

FFXI needs some big dot spells, and some enfeebles need to be fixed / added.

as far as SE is concerned SCH is the DoT experts, they're also fixing Enfeebles for RDM. This is merely an addition that has no real effect on the Dev's time it's not going to be some crazy amount of time to make a spell that grants a double attack trait temporarily.

The previous poster has no real concept of RDM, it sees RDM as simply a buffer so it's not too wise to agree with them. At least your reply was on what something RDM actually should do Enfeebling.

As it was said before it was a mistake on the translation side. RDM is a master of Enfeebling and Self Buffs.

[Shiyo]

@Hyrist, buffing a role that serves no purpose and will not improve the job in real situations is a complete waste of time. Sure it's a fun soloing and screwing around tool, but the job is HURTING badly when it comes to group oriented content, the main focus should be group oriented hard content before a screw around tool for soloing. You can already melee everything that isn't hard content. No one is stopping you from going and meleeing ep mobs, there's almost nothing to be had from them either, so why buff something that won't benefit the job in real situations?

Waste of dev time.

[FrankReynolds]

Waste of dev time.

That was the main thing I was agreeing with. They seem really busy. There are more important things.

[Supersun]

It probably took like 30 seconds to "develop" this spell.

[Hyrist]

@Hyrist, buffing a role that serves no purpose and will not improve the job in real situations is a complete waste of time. Sure it's a fun soloing and screwing around tool, but the job is HURTING badly when it comes to group oriented content, the main focus should be group oriented hard content before a screw around tool for soloing. Aka, waste of dev time.

I disagree.

In content in which our 'buffing' skills are of a primary use, monster difficulty is reletively LOW.

It's our enfeeblement department that is suffering the worst, as there is no current Debuff in RDM's library to effect TP moves, but simply calculating 'normal attacks' to work as special moves bypasses a great deal of our own debuff library.

Where as, the simple, and most available solution to a RDM's buff problem is to allow us to bestow our entire grouping of single target buffs onto one or more of our allies.

Suddenly, Temper becomes a great buff to have, because in party play, we can JA it and several other buffs over to our allies.

It's THAT easy to fix and it addresses your 'omg this is a worthless buff' mentality as well. I fully expect something along the lines of an ability like that to be in the new line of merits, as there is currently no job that fills the "Single Target buffer" niche aside from Brd's pianissimo. (Which is getting an adjustment, wewt.)

What we absolutely do not need, is more buffs to cycle. Even many backline enthusiastic RDMs are very, VERY tired of the buff cycle mentality, and breathed a sigh of relief when we got AF3+2. We don't need more buffs like that to put us back in that situation, party invite rate or no, it's just bad job design.

However, I don't see them giving us AoE or 'Sphere' spells as they are calling it. So my idea above makes sense to me as a compromise, and the logical course of action at this rate.

[Shiyo]

You are aware you're never going to be in melee range of any voidwatch NM, correct? Or any actually challenging NM in the game? Unless sphere effects are an aura with 40+ yard range, they're useless and extremely boring. Could just make a RDM mule at that point, click sphere aura, go afk.

[cidbahamut]

It probably took like 30 seconds to "develop" this spell.

This is false and generally misleading. Please don't make such outlandish claims.

[Scuro]

This spell is just dissapointing, the focus now for RDM is to be a buffer/debuffer class, and then they give it a spell like this.... One in which it only affects the individual, and can not be accessioned nor given out to any other party member. If you want to play a true hybrid class, play BLU, even the deciription decribes it as a hybrid job. SE needs to stop trying to appease people in this class and make it what its supposed to be, or else it still will be garbage and rarely ever used. I'm sorry, but I'll pick a BLU over a RDM in DD any day of the week, and I would take a SCH over a RDM in terms of buffing any day as well.

They need to fix this where I want a RDM to buff and debuff, not just roll my eyes and laugh. As it stands, the only RDMs that will use Temper, are ones that solo. No party nor anything will want a RDM to DD, even if they have this increase of double attack, I mean hell did a Joytoy get people into the frontline in parties? Hell no, do you think a spell that increases it will do it now?.... Not even the same sport of likely. I agree with Shiyo, the focus needs to be buffs and debuffs, or else the class will not be taken seriously, and will be mediocre. The debuffs available are nice, but not really amazing especially on Abyssea NMs that have just nasty resists on certain debuffs. And SCH just has better buffs (if fully merrited) then a RDM, no contest, and thats how it shouldn't be.

I can promise you right now, the only RDM that is going to use this spell, is a solo RDM playing with content that is not voidwatch nor abyssea. I'm pretty sure any RDM that uses this spell and runs up to the front thinking this gives them any right in a frontline position, will see a kick from party and a swift breaking of his/her shell. This spell had potential to be a desirable buff and give way to the ability of RDMs able to buff the hell out of players and make them monsters, yet now. That it only affects them, worthless.

/slowclap

waita go SE

[Daniel_Hatcher]

This is false and generally misleading. Please don't make such outlandish claims.

Truth be told if the game was coded clearly it wouldn't take much more than an hour.

As for the post below me, or above depending on your forum format. BLU is another job that's melee capability is not all that... Basically I guess it's all three of the sword wielders.

[Supersun]

This is false and generally misleading. Please don't make such outlandish claims.

Not really. I mean 30 seconds might be an exaggeration, but the "design" of the spell is what took all the time.

The "development" of the spell was was just throwing together pre-existing concepts onto one spell

[Yamimarik44]

Waste of dev time.

I'm not sure you're fulling grasping the "positive feedback" outlook for forums. I'm not quite sure Dev's want to see "Waste of dev's time." over and over. That really isn't "positive feedback". Everyone has different play styles and many people are very nostalgic and want RDM to have it's melee aspects enhanced the way it was supposed to be when it originally all began. Yes RDM's can buff and get quite an assortment of buff type spells, but RDM is also a great enfeebler(or used to be top noch). Maybe it would be nice if Dev's took another look at RDM's buff aspects especially if you wana go by the Manifesto description. But constantly throwing around "Waste of Dev's time." or some other remark that has no positive outlook at all, is a waste of time in general for us all. All those Enfeebling RDM's want that to be re-worked, all those healing RDM's want Cure V(Which SE did take away from RDM, but I digress.). And many Melee RDM's got a lil happy boost because of this update. Taking away something SE already wants to implement in the game isn't going to further your cause to get what you want out of this job realized by them. So stop wasting everyone's time with all this negative feedback, and just give some positive feedback once in awhile and maybe then your voice will be heard.

[Hyrist]

You are aware you're never going to be in melee range of any voidwatch NM, correct? Or any actually challenging NM in the game?

The same could be said for the vast majority of Melee classes depending on the mob.

"Actually Challenging" is also subjective. A challenging fight can consist of many difficult to CC fodder mobs alla Einherjar and Dynamis before the level cap rise, WoE even as it stands now, Assaults, and many missions/events in which the interim goal isn't as simple as a tank and spank strategy.

And your argument is to narrow our current toolset? No, I disagree heavily. The "Challenging" parts of this game isn't even in the majority of this game's content, by a long shot. And instead of creating more of the same challenges. If anything the challenges should be expanded upon beyond "Keep damage to an absolute minimum on this gigantic mob, whittle it to death."

[Seriha]

I wouldn't be surprised if they have a spell creation template where you just punch in all the variables like MP cost, Recast, valid targets, and so on. Click confirm and it generates the code the game would need to actually insert it. Creating the actual animations should be the more time consuming part. But hey, it's easy to call something a waste of time if it doesn't benefit you in some way.

[cidbahamut]

Not really. I mean 30 seconds might be an exaggeration, but the "design" of the spell is what took all the time.

The "development" of the spell was was just throwing together pre-existing concepts onto one spell

Well sure, if you define it as "writing down the idea on a paper napkin", but I feel that's a tad disingenuous, since you could then say they put together the whole game engine in about a week.

[Septimus]

If we are reaching the limit to the number of spells as has been suggested, then every new spells that is made needs to count. A 5% base activation rate is not a worthwhile trade for a potentially better spell not being able to be created in the future. Even at 20% you would be hard-pressed to say that it should take the place of an enfeeble that reduces a monster's magical evasion, gives it Amnesia, destroys its TP gain, or some other effect that we would like to see take place.

At this stage, if spell resources are getting scarce, opportunity cost is a huge consideration. If a spell is added, then it needs to be a spell that people will cast. The OAT effect will have to be significant because down the line when we hear "no, you can't have any more spells", RDMs are going to get blamed because we got a nigh-useless toy now.

[Juxtaposition]

5% isn't enough to make anyone care. Making it go up with enhancing magic is a good start, but it needs to be significant if SE wants anyone besides diehard DD RDMs to care. Also, make the enhancing magic portion only relevant at time-of-cast, not fluctuate based on how much skill you have when you attack round goes off. Yeah, it is a silly thing to worry about, but this is SE we are talking about here.

I think melee RDM is silly just like the next sensible guy, but the point is SE is making statement that they do not want it to be silly anymore. To be honest, I was kind of hoping that Temper would have been something just out of this world ridiculous, like 100% DA, just to mess with everyone's heads; though I was expecting something along the lines of 2-5% and I wasn't disappointed, heh.

[Hyrist]

If we are reaching the limit to the number of spells as has been suggested, then every new spells that is made needs to count.

That would honestly depend on how the limit is implimented.

If it's a limit to the number of spells we can actively have in our list, then the option to simply 'forget' unwanted spells can solve that problem easily.

Not arguing that the spells we get shouldn't 'count' but that's highly subjective depending on the content a player plays in the game.

[Kenthedeviant]

SE,
Good idea on Temper but it's current activation rate of 5% is too low. In needs to be stronger and possibly scale with enhancing magic used during cast.

Can the community representatives please take this note back to SE Dev's, good idea but needs tweaking.

The Test servers were a brilliant idea, they allowed us to identify this issue prior to patch date.

Thanks for your time and have a good day.

Absolutely right. I LOVE the test server for letting us get to see this early, and yes, Temper's proc of a CONFIRMED 5% with capped enhancing skill is just SHAMEFUL. The spell is virtually useless, and the help text description feels like a complete disappointment and a total lie (matching descriptions of weapons such as joyeuse and sea weapons). With only a TENTH of the potency! Please, just do something to adjust this to a REASONABLE level. At 5%, no rdm will even consider casting this, and it's just yet another waste of a spell in a long line of disappointments for RDM, especially those who actually ENJOYED meleeing now and then.

[Septimus]

That would honestly depend on how the limit is implimented.

If it's a limit to the number of spells we can actively have in our list, then the option to simply 'forget' unwanted spells can solve that problem easily.

Not arguing that the spells we get shouldn't 'count' but that's highly subjective depending on the content a player plays in the game.

The limit to which I refer would be specific to the number of spells possible in the game's data, not just the number that you can cast. It is not an arbitrary limit like blue magic where you can only cast a specific amount of spells that are set with points based on your level, apparently there is a real limit to the amount of spells that can be added because of the game's architecture.

This is why I am saying that if they are going to add Temper, it better be good. Some people will think that Temper wouldn't be worth casting even if it gave 100% Double Attack, gave the mob amnesia, and whitened your teeth with a fresh minty aftertaste; but I think that everyone can agree that a base 5% OAT is completely worthless. Even if it scales to 20%, it still will be not that great. It will have to be in the 30-40% range before I consider it to be a useful spell, even then I will pretty much never use it since I have WAR and THF on my main for all of my murderizing needs. But at least it will be useful for people who want it.

Oh, and I just had a random thought not relating to this quote. Camate said that it can be used with en-spells, that is why the rate is so low. But unless something is changed specifically for Temper, tier II en-spells only do damage on the first swing of an attack round. So if you are single-wielding, you are either going to have to use tier I en-spells and lose out on the damage of the higher en-spell or use the tier II en-spell and not get anything on your second swing. Honestly, the game would not explode if tier II en-spells were just double damage of the tier I, none of that silly charging up or swing restriction.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

If we are reaching the limit to the number of spells as has been suggested, then every new spells that is made needs to count. A 5% base activation rate is not a worthwhile trade for a potentially better spell not being able to be created in the future. Even at 20% you would be hard-pressed to say that it should take the place of an enfeeble that reduces a monster's magical evasion, gives it Amnesia, destroys its TP gain, or some other effect that we would like to see take place.

At this stage, if spell resources are getting scarce, opportunity cost is a huge consideration. If a spell is added, then it needs to be a spell that people will cast. The OAT effect will have to be significant because down the line when we hear "no, you can't have any more spells", RDMs are going to get blamed because we got a nigh-useless toy now.

If there is a limit then:

1. How do BLU cope, they get the most spells.
2. If BLU spells count in the total with White/Black/Dark magic then remove the lesser more rubbish BLU spells.

That said I find it unlikely there is no way to increase the total whether it be by just adding another Magic command area like they've been doing with inventory for this long.

[FrankReynolds]

I'm not sure you're fulling grasping the "positive feedback" outlook for forums. I'm not quite sure Dev's want to see "Waste of dev's time." over and over. That really isn't "positive feedback". Everyone has different play styles and many people are very nostalgic and want RDM to have it's melee aspects enhanced the way it was supposed to be when it originally all began. Yes RDM's can buff and get quite an assortment of buff type spells, but RDM is also a great enfeebler(or used to be top noch). Maybe it would be nice if Dev's took another look at RDM's buff aspects especially if you wana go by the Manifesto description. But constantly throwing around "Waste of Dev's time." or some other remark that has no positive outlook at all, is a waste of time in general for us all. All those Enfeebling RDM's want that to be re-worked, all those healing RDM's want Cure V(Which SE did take away from RDM, but I digress.). And many Melee RDM's got a lil happy boost because of this update. Taking away something SE already wants to implement in the game isn't going to further your cause to get what you want out of this job realized by them. So stop wasting everyone's time with all this negative feedback, and just give some positive feedback once in awhile and maybe then your voice will be heard.

I can't think of a better way for them to stop seeing "waste of devs time" than for us to tell them when they are wasting their time so that they don't keep doing it. It's like not telling someone when their zipper is down. Sure they feel a little angry or embarrassed, but its better than walking around all day not knowing. FYI there are tons of "positive feedback" posts in other portions of the forums. This unfortunately is one of the Items that didn't merit positive feedback.

You could try the BLU, WAR or MNK forums? They seem pretty happy about things in general.

[Supersun]

Not to mention there's some optimization of our spells they can do if necessary.

I mean if they are really hurting for space would it be that broken to combine all of our elemental and status barspells into two spells? One a magic evasion spell and the other a status effect evasion spell. I mean between Whm and Rdm that would free up like 20 spells.


I can't think of a better way for them to stop seeing "waste of devs time" than for us to tell them when they are wasting their time so that they don't keep doing it. It's like not telling someone when their zipper is down. Sure they feel a little angry or embarrassed, but its better than walking around all day not knowing. FYI there are tons of "positive feedback" posts in other portions of the forums. This unfortunately is one of the Items that didn't merit positive feedback.

You could try the BLU, WAR or MNK forums? They seem pretty happy about things in general.

Maybe it'd be better to give suggestions on what to work on instead?

Seriously, search these threads for posts about enfeebling. There aren't many and most of them are made by the same people who ask for melee buffs as well with a handful of others such as Karbuncle and Great Guardian ect....

[Yamimarik44]

I can't think of a better way for them to stop seeing "waste of devs time" than for us to tell them when they are wasting their time so that they don't keep doing it. It's like not telling someone when their zipper is down. Sure they feel a little angry or embarrassed, but its better than walking around all day not knowing. FYI there are tons of "positive feedback" posts in other portions of the forums. This unfortunately is one of the Items that didn't merit positive feedback. You could try the BLU, WAR or MNK forums? They seem pretty happy about things in general.

Okay, but what does the community and you yourself gain from being so negative all the time? Nothing but frustration among everyone in the community and people always harping on everyone if everyone's way of thinking isn't aligned with their own. You do nothing good for the community if you're always going to slander idea's and act so negatively towards others and their own comments. I have seen the other threads on this forum, but why can't the RDM thread's just be as positive as others? Is it really that difficult to come up with positive suggestions, feedback and comments for RDM? Grow up, stop acting like the world is only suited to your way of thinking. Just stop the whining and complaining and say something more constructive as a whole for the community.

As far as suggesting ideas for RDM maybe SE should have another look into RDM's enfeebling, a nice boost to melee is always welcomed to those in the community who enjoy this play style. From what I've ready majority of players, including myself, doesn't really want to see anymore buffs to cycle through. On my first character before the lvl increase I remember how it was for RDM's at 75. I was one of those RDM's I did what was asked of me and always kept everyone happy on buffs and enfeebles. Doesn't mean it wasn't a hassle though. Anything else I'm coming up empty on further idea's tired and hungry lol.

[Septimus]

If there is a limit then:

1. How do BLU cope, they get the most spells.
2. If BLU spells count in the total with White/Black/Dark magic then remove the lesser more rubbish BLU spells.

That said I find it unlikely there is no way to increase the total whether it be by just adding another Magic command area like they've been doing with inventory for this long.

I could simply say "PS2 Limitations", but I can go into more detail since I have worked with the spell list a lot doing wiki-type stuff.

Essentially it works like this, all spells are on one giant list. The order used to be White Magic, Black Magic, Summoning, Ninjustu, Songs, and Blue Magic. They have had to get more creative when adding in new spells, this is why tier II en-spells are after summoning magic when you sort your spells. When you sort your magic to the automatic setting, most spells go according to their ID numbers in the spell data file. (Cure is 1, Fire is 144, Fire Spirit is 288, Monomi: Ichi is 318, Foe Requiem is 368, Venom Shell is 513. Blue magic is different, it first sorts it according to type, then level, then ID. Except for the spells added after the initial spells which are just by ID.)

Right now there are 767 entries in the spell data files, 631 of them are named spells in the data files, approximately 587 (probably a few more than that) of which we can or will be able to cast by level 99. There is a lot of waste that can be cut, I made a list on the BGForums of some of them like: Dia IV, Dia V, Banish V, Diaga III, Diaga IV, Diaga V, Banishga IV, Banishga V, Poison III, Poison IV, Poison V, Poisonga III, Poisonga IV, Poisonga V, Virus, Curse, Tractor II, Moogle Rhapsody, Jester's Operetta, and Protected Aria. There is also a lot of Blue Magic entries which are unused. But regardless of that, if the official word is that we are running out of spells (could someone find a link to the actual community team post for that), the 767 entries may be more than the system can handle. It may not be an issue of memory in the spell list, there may be some other limiting factor that wouldn't allow for a second magic command. (Were such a thing possible, would they take the time to program it?) Or there is room for more spells, they just said that they are running out of spells as a way to say "Shut up, you're getting what you're getting".

[Alhanelem]

Waste of dev time, RDM is not a melee job :/.
Comments like this are not helpful. There are times, especially soloing (something that RDMs do a lot) when it is beneficial. In a group fighting NMs, no, of course you're not going to do it. However, that doesn't mean that RDM's sword capability, which was originally designed as part of the job, can't be enhanced for any reason.

[saevel]

Based on all the feedback we have received on the forum and the test server, we will be making it so Temper’s activation rate increases with higher enhancing magic skill. (Of course there will be a cap)

Victory, The system works.
RDM Melee 1
RDM Hater 0

Now onto the things I missed.

About the whole Haste / DW / DA thing, gonna correct some misinformation.

First DA experienced a diminishing returns, meaning the most you use the less each individual increment is worth. You use the formula (Increased Attacks / Original Attacks) to determine it. Going from 0~5% DA is exactly +5% (105/100), going from 120 to 125 DA is 4.1% increase (125/120). This is why you focus on DA after things like Haste / DW / Accuracy are taken care of, and also much be balanced with Attack.

Now Haste, Haste is increasing returns, as the most you have the more valuable each increment is worth. This is because Haste is used a denominator with the amount of haste present being subtracted from base 100. The formula (100/(100-Haste) is typically used. Going from 0 to 5% haste is a 5.2% increase (100/95). 20% Haste is a 25% increase (100/80), and 25% haste is a 33.3% increase. Going from 20% haste to 25% haste is a 6.4% increase (133/125). 50% Haste is a 100% increase in attack speed (100/50), 55% haste is a 122% increase in attack speed (100/45), thus going from 50 to 55% haste gives and 11% increase in attack speed (222/200). As you can see the most haste you have the more powerful each additional unit is.

DW / MA function the exact same as haste, going from 20DW to 25DW is a 6.4% increase (1.33/1.25) in attack speed. Going from 25 to 30 is a 6.7% increase (1.42/1.33). DW / MA also lowers your delay which while lowering your TP per hit, it actually increased your TP gain rate over time. The TP Formula is based for delay's over 400 and under 240 with it being really biased under 200. Your melee DPS will go up the same with both haste and DW / MA. Your TP gain rate also goes up on both, but goes up faster with Haste vs DW / MA.

The only reason 2H weapons are so sensitive to delay reduction is their relying on hitting exactly 100TP to WS faster. 110 PT is functionally identical to 100 TP, thus if they can shave a hit off by going from 110 at 6 to 100 at 5 then they would of increased their WS rate by 20% (6/5) even if it would require them to use as slightly higher delay weapon (480/450). The increase in delay and thus the lowering of attack speed is offset by a much larger increase in WS rate. For DW builds this isn't as important as going from 20 hits to 100 (5tp/hit) to 18 hits to 100 (5.6tp/hit) would only increase WS rate by 11% (20/18), and while significant it's not enough to justify lowering your melee DPS to begin with.

[Duelle]

Thanks for all your feedback on Temper.

Based on all the feedback we have received on the forum and the test server, we will be making it so Temper’s activation rate increases with higher enhancing magic skill. (Of course there will be a cap)

In regards to the effect, when considering that the double attack can be stacked with other things besides just enhancing magic skill, such as equipment, etc., and can also be used with en-spells, we set it accordingly.Hurray~~~. You certainly put my translation to shame, Camate. Any word or even a hint of what that cap may be? >.>;

[Hashmalum]

There is a lot of waste that can be cut, I made a list on the BGForums of some of them like: Dia IV, Dia V, Banish V, Diaga III, Diaga IV, Diaga V, Banishga IV, Banishga V, Poison III, Poison IV, Poison V, Poisonga III, Poisonga IV, Poisonga V, Virus, Curse, Tractor II, Moogle Rhapsody, Jester's Operetta, and Protected Aria. There is also a lot of Blue Magic entries which are unused.Virus and Curse actually get cast by a handful of NMs, and Virus is actually something that RDM should be getting as an enfeeble. But yeah we don't need five tiers of Poison if only the first two ever get cast by anything.

[saevel]

Dia IV, Dia V
I want these, like now.


Banish V, Banishga IV, Banishga V
WHM should be getting Banish IV / V, Banishga III / IV, else just give them Banishja. Their WHM's and its their only line of damage attacks.

[Drivont]

No... Really no.

Haste receives exponential returns, due to how it effects attack delay.

Dual Wield receives decreasing returns because it reduces TP per hit gain and contributes to the overall 'delay reduction' cap. Making it a soft competitor to haste.

Double Attack is a flat rate of return. 5% double attack means 5% of your attacks that strike normally will attack twice instead. This works globally across the board.

You cannot lump these together, at all.



Correct, it is a Hybrid job. {Please check it.}

If you wish to focus entirely on the mage aspects of the job, you are free to do so. But I do not agree in harping the Developers for giving attention to the aspects of a job class long neglected in the development cycle. High end-game play is not the sole content of the game nor should it be regarded as such.

Additionally, what is this 'invite' you speak of? Most events that occur are done within groupings of friends or associates. In which case Meleeing is an option depending on the acceptability of your peers in relation to the difficulty of the event.

You also assume the development team isn't multitasking other developments at well, to which I say you're both incorrect and impatient. I'd rather them work on both aspects of the job with equal care and consideration.

Temper was so far, done poorly, would you like them to be screwing up the support aspects like that as well? If nothing else, consider these buffs as training for what they should be doing with our support role.

In the meanwhile, you may stow away your absolutist ideal. We're still not sure how the entirety of the changes coming down the pipeline will effect RDM and job/endgame dynamics as whole.



I heart you! :D

[Ameglemorine]

I do agree that temper is a bit of a waste "by itself". +5% gives you a greater chance of double attack but also defeats the purpose of RDM not having a "natural" Double attack trait(war) which makes Temper a redundant spell when used by itself. Example, using a Triple Dagger via RDM with 1% chance of landing a triple attack within one round of attacks is possible. But, what is the chances of that actually executing each round? Haste spell and Haste samba with dual wield via DNC subjob can increase the chances of triple attack executing but that's only because of the delay time for each round is shorten til haste samba caps. Yet, this still makes triple dagger useless as a tp feeder via rdm because rdm does not have a "Natural" Triple Attack trait(thf). But, with all the DA gear we already have access to RDM , temper can add a bit more to your damage over time. With that being said, we all have to understand why SE decided to make temper less dominate over an 10% Double Attack trait. Remember all, being a RDM is like having a box of tools at hand. We use the right tools for the right situation. This is what makes RDM so unique.

[Supersun]

Being a swiss army knife and having the right tool for the situation is nice and all but when our objective is to chop down a tree as fast as you can adding another tiny +5% DA blade to our repertoire isn't going to help when everyone else is already using a chainsaw.

I'm really not so sure why they are being as timid as they are with the new Red Mage abilities when they are already making Sam and Blu into demi-gods without our assistance.

[saevel]

Temper was so far, done poorly, would you like them to be screwing up the support aspects like that as well? If nothing else, consider these buffs as training for what they should be doing with our support role.

Umm what?
I can get on board with them enhancing all aspects of the job, I like to mage as much as I like to melee. But Temper is identical to enspells, its something that exists for us to enhance our melee damage. Expecting it to enhance our mage side is like asking for Cure IV / Thunder IV to enhance our melee side, not really gonna happen.

Try to think of it like this,


Enspells was so far, done poorly, would you like them to be screwing up the support aspects like that as well? If nothing else, consider these buffs as training for what they should be doing with our support role.

Hmm.

Plus Temper will now be increased via enhancing magic, which makes it perfect for melee RDM's.

[saevel]

Umm why are people still crying over this, they've already stated its' going to go up with enhancing magic. I got 60+ enhancing magic skill worth of gear, I'm not worried about it being "too weak". It'll hit 10% at least, don't know about 15~20 though, that depends on how they apply it.

If you want another demonstration of a spell with a low base stat look at Gain-MND. Starts at +5 @300 skill, gains +1 for every 10 skill. Now "5 base" on a state seems silly and weak, 5 STR or DEX isn't anything to write home about. But after scaling it'll be +20 for me at 95, which is most definitely something to rejoice about. I look at Temper the same way, 5% at some level, then going up with each tier after that. Knowing SE they'll just reuse the Gain-Stat formula but impose a 10/15/20 limit on the stat, which is perfectly fine with me.

Seriously, you people expecting +30/40/50 are kinda off your rocker as much as the guys demanding it be cast-able on others.

And BTW, cease with all this "demi-god buffer" nonsense, it's a poor translation. The JP text state's that we turn OURSELVES into "demi-gods" while supporting the party by weakening the monster. It translated poorly due to subject / verb placement and phrasing. Thank god I know people who can read Japanese.

[Cursed]

/slowclap

waita go SE
My sentiments exactly. SE listening to people who probably only have RDM lvled, and got it to 90 in Abyssea and think the job should be competing with WARs and MNKs on the front lines.

I can't wait to see the first fool who comes to a VW run as RDM saying "but i got temper now bro" and starts attacking only to be floored within the first 20 seconds of the fight.
This is just utter nonsense. wars,mnks,sams,drgs,nins,drks who will wipe the floor with RDM's dps already have issues going up against a lot of these new VW NMs, and can be one shotted more often than not.

If anything SE is supporting a new generation of emo RDMs who are going to do nothing but whine about "but i got temper bro".

Take your temper and go solo Fafnir and Khim ... Bro.

What SE thinks RDM should be is pointless and bears no weight on how we play this game. What RDM actually is, is what the community determines it to be by finding a use for it.

RDMs had a spot on the front lines before they nerfed the hell out of their enmity generating spells.
The only use the community has for RDMs is as an enhancer/buffer/enfeebler. They've fallen behind sine the level cap rise and as a result are sidelined.
That could have been fixed and the job could have been given spells like SlowIII, ParalyzeIII, PhalanxIII, Haste2/Hastega, reflect, Demi... but instead we keep seeing them get spells that enhance their own pathetic dps.

if this generation of RDMs want to play a mage job that is a hybrid caster and damage dealer, go level BLU. Blu is an insane DD.

[Supersun]

My sentiments exactly. SE listening to people who probably only have RDM lvled, and got it to 90 in Abyssea and think the job should be competing with WARs and MNKs on the front lines.

Oh look, another person that doesn't even have the job leveled complaining about it... (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Cerberus/Jinz)

I don't think anyone is expecting Rdm to beat Mnk and War on the front lines, but it'd be nice to at least not need an emp WS weapon to beat a non emp WS Brd or Whm...

[Scuro]

*tap-out*
I'm done this is giving me a head ache, the idea of RDM DD is vomit inducing honestly. SE needs to just stick with their guns and make the job a buffer and a debuffer, because it won't compete with BLU. So why bother. TBH, Temper should of gone to BLU if it was going to be a self-cast only that can't bee Accessioned out... Talk about such a waste, I mean at least if it went to BLU it would oh.... idk.... actually get used lol. Seeing as we have a god amount of double attack gear for being a hybrid job.

[SpankWustler]

I wouldn't be surprised if they have a spell creation template where you just punch in all the variables like MP cost, Recast, valid targets, and so on. Click confirm and it generates the code the game would need to actually insert it. Creating the actual animations should be the more time consuming part. But hey, it's easy to call something a waste of time if it doesn't benefit you in some way.

They probably do, but what do you think it actually puts out given some of the bugs we've seen after updates? I wouldn't be shocked in the least if typing in "+5% Double Attack/3 Minute Duration/36 MP Cost" produced a spell that summoned a headless Genbu for thirty minutes at the expense of 3.6 TP and required twenty-four man-hours to repair.

[Bigboy]

Correct, it is a Hybrid job. {Please check it.}

Please note: It is a hybrid Black Mage / White Mage. If you were supposed to be on the front line, you would already be there. You would natively get good WS for your primary weapon, etc.

[Neisan_Quetz]

*tap-out*
I'm done this is giving me a head ache, the idea of RDM DD is vomit inducing honestly. SE needs to just stick with their guns and make the job a buffer and a debuffer, because it won't compete with BLU. So why bother. TBH, Temper should of gone to BLU if it was going to be a self-cast only that can't bee Accessioned out... Talk about such a waste, I mean at least if it went to BLU it would oh.... idk.... actually get used lol. Seeing as we have a god amount of double attack gear for being a hybrid job.

You know Rdm is only ~3% DA and 1% TA behind BLU equipment wise for their best sets, right? The major difference is the settable trait.

[Duelle]

Expecting it to enhance our mage side is like asking for Cure IV / Thunder IV to enhance our melee side, not really gonna happen.Job Traits

Art of Combat: Your melee swings have a 30% chance to grant you Art of Combat, which makes your next Cure I-IV or Elemental Nuke I-IV instant cast.

>.>;

I look at Temper the same way, 5% at some level, then going up with each tier after that. Knowing SE they'll just reuse the Gain-Stat formula but impose a 10/15/20 limit on the stat, which is perfectly fine with me.I agree that we should wait until we see the further implementation of scaling with Enhancing Magic. At the same time, I still think Temper would carry more weight from a playstyle perspective if it came into play earlier than lv95.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

*tap-out*
I'm done this is giving me a head ache, the idea of RDM DD is vomit inducing honestly. SE needs to just stick with their guns and make the job a buffer and a debuffer, because it won't compete with BLU. So why bother. TBH, Temper should of gone to BLU if it was going to be a self-cast only that can't bee Accessioned out... Talk about such a waste, I mean at least if it went to BLU it would oh.... idk.... actually get used lol. Seeing as we have a god amount of double attack gear for being a hybrid job.

Good, then go away...


Please note: It is a hybrid Black Mage / White Mage. If you were supposed to be on the front line, you would already be there. You would natively get good WS for your primary weapon, etc.

Correction: SCH is the WHM/BLM hybrid. RDM is supposed to be the WHM/BLM/WAR hybrid.

[cidbahamut]

Correction: SCH is the WHM/BLM hybrid. RDM is supposed to be the WHM/BLM/WAR hybrid.
On paper only.

Scholar is more of an either/or job and unlike RDM cannot cover everything at once on short notice.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

On paper only.

Scholar is more of an either/or job and unlike RDM cannot cover everything at once on short notice.

I know! Just saying it's tiring hearing people try to claim otherwise.

Yes, SqureEnix haven't done it very well on the melee front where the magic side is a lot better, but it doesn't change what the job RDM actually is. Whether it's played like that or otherwise.

[Rayik]

Wow, the biggest babies in this thread crying aren't even RDM's in the first place. Cry us a freakin' river.

RDM melee is not about "competing with War or MNK." That was never the point. If anyone honestly thought that was the idea behind RDM melee, you're about a mile off the mark. Get out of our threads.

RDM melee is about strengthening one aspect of a hybrid job. The extra damage is supplemental, and will never "compete" with what a WAR or MNK does.

And a BLU(Scuro) wanting Temper instead of us getting it? No coincidence that same player has a BLU themed sig. Wow. AoE CW burning armies of mobs at a time and you still want more?

I welcome Temper, and look forward to adding it to RDM's toolbox of versatility.

[Cursed]

Oh look, another person that doesn't even have the job leveled complaining about it... (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Cerberus/Jinz)

I don't think anyone is expecting Rdm to beat Mnk and War on the front lines, but it'd be nice to at least not need an emp WS weapon to beat a non emp WS Brd or Whm...


Look, another person who has never heard of people having more than 1 toon.

[Rayik]

Look, another person who has never heard of people having more than 1 toon.

Maybe it's my ignorance, but do other jobs get talked down to so much about what we should or shouldn't be allowed to do? If a WAR winds up tanking in a pt, does he get screamed at? If a PLD helps cure other players in a pt, do they get screamed at by non-PLD's?

Really, this is a RDM discussion in the RDM forums. If you can't see what's wrong with the job in the current state of the game, why are you here? I seriously lol at the "ur job is fine, lulz" comments. Like the game is supposed to suddenly stop evolving.

[Shiyo]

Yay your melee gets buffed, TOO BAD YOU WILL NEVER MELEE ANYTHING WORTHWHILE IN THE GAME?

Guys, let's buff paladin nukes! It's one aspect of the job we're buffing, who cares if the job is weak and hurting right now? We have a 400 page thread DEMANDING nuke buffs for PLD! We want to nuke as paladin! I refuse to play BLM or SCH! I play PLD to nuke

See how dumb you look now?

[cidbahamut]

Shush you.

[Bubeeky]

It saddens me that rdm doesn't get to melee in pt's....rdm was one of my more favorite jobs in previous FF games because they had insane damage capacity with dual swords (FF3) meanwhile having both white and black magic up to mid-level. During my early years on this game and even up to today, I've had several rdm friends, really good ones too, and whenever we'd duo, they would do so well melee-wise, but when we'd do events, all that would be meaningless...I hope Temper is SE's attempt to begin giving rdm some melee love :)

[Rayik]

I'm sorry did someone say something?

[saevel]

Wow, the biggest babies in this thread crying aren't even RDM's in the first place. Cry us a freakin' river.

RDM melee is not about "competing with War or MNK." That was never the point. If anyone honestly thought that was the idea behind RDM melee, you're about a mile off the mark. Get out of our threads.

RDM melee is about strengthening one aspect of a hybrid job. The extra damage is supplemental, and will never "compete" with what a WAR or MNK does.

And a BLU(Scuro) wanting Temper instead of us getting it? No coincidence that same player has a BLU themed sig. Wow. AoE CW burning armies of mobs at a time and you still want more?

I welcome Temper, and look forward to adding it to RDM's toolbox of versatility.

I mentioned this several times, the detractors don't play RDM neither do they want RDM to have a melee update. What they wanted was SE to give RDM a buff to be cast on their (detractor's) favorite jobs. In essence they wanted an indirect buff to everyone except RDM.

And somehow people said I was wrong for calling them out.

[Rayik]

I mentioned this several times, the detractors don't play RDM neither do they want RDM to have a melee update. What they wanted was SE to give RDM a buff to be cast on their (detractor's) favorite jobs. In essence they wanted an indirect buff to everyone except RDM.

And somehow people said I was wrong for calling them out.

You worded it better than I could.

The DRK forum isn't as emo as this forum has become.

[cidbahamut]

I mentioned this several times, the detractors don't play RDM neither do they want RDM to have a melee update. What they wanted was SE to give RDM a buff to be cast on their (detractor's) favorite jobs. In essence they wanted an indirect buff to everyone except RDM.

And somehow people said I was wrong for calling them out.
You keep saying this but that doesn't make it true.

I am a Red Mage. I disagree with you. I think Temper being castable on other players would be pretty rad, because I'd like the spell offer more utility than "helps me farm dark rings".

You do nothing to support your position, but instead spout rhetoric designed solely to discredit those who disagree with you. Please stop it. It's getting old and it just makes you look silly.

[Supersun]

You keep saying this but that doesn't make it true.

I am a Red Mage. I disagree with you. I think Temper being castable on other players would be pretty rad, because I'd like the spell offer more utility than "helps me farm dark rings".

You do nothing to support your position, but instead spout rhetoric designed solely to discredit those who disagree with you. Please stop it. It's getting old and it just makes you look silly.

The difference between you and them though is that you will actually play the job instead of just using your dual boxed second toon to cast temper on your real jobs.

[Shiyo]

I'm RDM main, I will literally almost never melee :/

I can just change to kannagi NIN if I want to melee... RDM is not a melee job.

If I want to nuke I'll play SCH(@95 cause not playing sch without blizz5/fire5 <_<)

If I want to shoot things I'll play gandiva RNG

If I want to enfeeble, buff, support, back up cure, crowd control, nuke a bit, I'll play RDM

derp

[cidbahamut]

The difference between you and them though is that you will actually play the job instead of just using your dual boxed second toon to cast temper on your real jobs.

Yes but how can you tell the difference between those who will be dualboxing and those who won't? Because you're not going to be able to tell the difference just because someone does or does not agree with you about Temper. This is why I object, because Saevel keeps making sweeping generalizations in a provocative manner while adding nothing to the discussion other than flame-bait.

[Cursed]

The difference between you and them though is that you will actually play the job instead of just using your dual boxed second toon to cast temper on your real jobs.

rrrriiiiighhhtttt..... Because RDM getting Temper is going to make everyone who dual boxes suddenly drop WHM as their second dualboxed job, amarite?
Try again.

And of course, we all wanted temper to be castable on others, because that's the only way its worth anything at all. Self casting temper isn't going to bring RDMs out of the MH.

So be it for my mule, or for RDM mains, Temper isn't doing anyone any favors, and it sho as heeeeyaaal aint going to allow any of youz lolRDMs ever melee anything that requires more than 2-3 people in the first place.

[Septimus]

Personally, I think Temper should be self-cast only, but cause an Aura effect on the RDM that the rest of the party gains the effect if they are in decently close proximity.

But I would like new spells to cause RDMs to get party invitations if we are indeed running out of spell slots.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Personally, I think Temper should be self-cast only, but cause an Aura effect on the RDM that the rest of the party gains the effect if they are in decently close proximity.

But I would like new spells to cause RDMs to get party invitations if we are indeed running out of spell slots.

It's been suggested before a JA that copies buffs on the RDM to the party, though it may be over-powered.

[Swords]

It's been suggested before a JA that copies buffs on the RDM to the party, though it may be over-powered.

I can't really see why it would be considered overpowered, all it really does is reduce our casting load as a whole, seeing as most spells are castable by other jobs and/or have an AoE version of it.

[Septimus]

It's been suggested before a JA that copies buffs on the RDM to the party, though it may be over-powered.

And that is why I suggested an aura effect for it. The RDM would have to take some risk by being close to the mob when using this buff on others, and Square likes that kind of risk-taking. And since there is no mob with an "Occasionally Attacks Once" aura, they wouldn't have to worry about it being over-powered by overwriting a monster aura. I am trying to be realistic about making this a very good spell that would be useful in party situations.

[saevel]

Personally, I think Temper should be self-cast only, but cause an Aura effect on the RDM that the rest of the party gains the effect if they are in decently close proximity.

But I would like new spells to cause RDMs to get party invitations if we are indeed running out of spell slots.

I agree on the aura / sphere effect would of been nice. I can get with the idea of sharing our buffs with those within range of us.

But I have to disagree with the whole "Party Invitations" thing, we don't do PT invites anymore because we don't have XP parties. Abyssea stuff is based entirely off procing skills, RDM could have "Cure VII" and WHM would still be picked over RDM due to them having the light procs. And everything after this is either lowman "friend" stuff, or big shell stuff. We really gotta get out of the pre abyssea "6 man XP Invites" mentality. Abysea XP groups now have 2~4 people afking and some lv 40 guy opening chests, alliance leaders /sh for invites for awhile before filling up, their not being picky about who joins. The only real job discrimination happens with abyssea proc's, which is outside the scope of this discussion.

The "Spell Slot" scare is not real, at least not server side. Their talking about a limit on the PS2 memory and the fact that every additional ~anything~ takes up precious kilobits of memory. Every JA, Spell, Item, Auto-Translation, Zone and Inventory item must fit inside a very small space for the PS2 client. They've been running out of that space for a long time, they scalped the auto-translate system to make more room for new game stuff but they can't do that much longer.

So SE isn't "wasting spell slots" because there are no spell slots, just PS2 memory. The PC clients wouldn't be effected provided SE branch's the client like their recent survey suggests they'll do.

[FrankReynolds]

I agree on the aura / sphere effect would of been nice. I can get with the idea of sharing our buffs with those within range of us.

But I have to disagree with the whole "Party Invitations" thing, we don't do PT invites anymore because we don't have XP parties. Abyssea stuff is based entirely off procing skills, RDM could have "Cure VII" and WHM would still be picked over RDM due to them having the light procs. And everything after this is either lowman "friend" stuff, or big shell stuff. We really gotta get out of the pre abyssea "6 man XP Invites" mentality. Abysea XP groups now have 2~4 people afking and some lv 40 guy opening chests, alliance leaders /sh for invites for awhile before filling up, their not being picky about who joins. The only real job discrimination happens with abyssea proc's, which is outside the scope of this discussion.

The "Spell Slot" scare is not real, at least not server side. Their talking about a limit on the PS2 memory and the fact that every additional ~anything~ takes up precious kilobits of memory. Every JA, Spell, Item, Auto-Translation, Zone and Inventory item must fit inside a very small space for the PS2 client. They've been running out of that space for a long time, they scalped the auto-translate system to make more room for new game stuff but they can't do that much longer.

So SE isn't "wasting spell slots" because there are no spell slots, just PS2 memory. The PC clients wouldn't be effected provided SE branch's the client like their recent survey suggests they'll do.

And what happens when they add more content that you cant kill with just the proc jobs? and it can't be soloed? Are you gonna ask a shell or pick up group to let you get up front and melee? Do you think they will let you? Or are you gonna wish the devs had put some time into something that made you stand out among mages instead of giving you buffs that didn't get you a DD slot?

This ability could be a lot better if it was for party members too, but aura would mean it would never get used most likely.

[Duelle]

But I have to disagree with the whole "Party Invitations" thing, we don't do PT invites anymore because we don't have XP parties. Abyssea stuff is based entirely off procing skills, RDM could have "Cure VII" and WHM would still be picked over RDM due to them having the light procs. And everything after this is either lowman "friend" stuff, or big shell stuff. We really gotta get out of the pre abyssea "6 man XP Invites" mentality. Abysea XP groups now have 2~4 people afking and some lv 40 guy opening chests, alliance leaders /sh for invites for awhile before filling up, their not being picky about who joins. The only real job discrimination happens with abyssea proc's, which is outside the scope of this discussion.Abyssea may have changed expectations, but our job as a whole is still being judged based on the stuff established by the 6-man party set ups. That's why I've tended to think that if you're going to buff or rebalance RDM, it has to be with the 6-man party in mind, then branch out into what Abyssea and alliances would allow the job to do.

You can't pretend that 6-man party balance doesn't matter when the perception of our job created by those damn parties are what are causing all these outsiders to come into our threads and tell us we don't deserve melee buffs or how melee buffs are a waste of time and how we should be getting back to being their buff b*tches, made worse by those inside our job who most likely rode the Refresh gravy train to 75 and merits before the level cap was raised. I for one am sick of our job being treated the way it is.

[saevel]

Abyssea may have changed expectations, but our job as a whole is still being judged based on the stuff established by the 6-man party set ups. That's why I've tended to think that if you're going to buff or rebalance RDM, it has to be with the 6-man party in mind, then branch out into what Abyssea and alliances would allow the job to do.

You can't pretend that 6-man party balance doesn't matter when the perception of our job created by those damn parties are what are causing all these outsiders to come into our threads and tell us we don't deserve melee buffs or how melee buffs are a waste of time and how we should be getting back to being their buff b*tches, made worse by those inside our job who most likely rode the Refresh gravy train to 75 and merits before the level cap was raised. I for one am sick of our job being treated the way it is.

Except it's no longer relevant. You wont' be sitting in PJ / WG with your flag up with "90RDM LFP Warp O Area O" in your search comment. The closest is the PUG's forming for Abyssea stuff and their just after red / yellow procs. VWNM's removed that as there are so many procs that one BLM can't possibly hit them all. HNM shells are easy, you'll be invited for the exact same thing we've always been invited for, Refresh on the healers. I wasn't lieing when I said I now go RDM/DRK to most non-abyssea shell related events, they want me for stun, refresh II, Slow II, Dia III and Cure IV. And lately Dia III, especially Saboteur Dia III has been getting noticed. Our positions amongst super big HNM fights is assured.

RDM's mantra is this, melee on trash, mage on boss. Now this doesn't discount meleeing on boss, but in a boss fight your primary concern is supporting the alliance and helping out the DD specialists do their thing. Any damage you can do ontop of your support duties is bonus, of course bonus is nice ^^

[Supersun]

Obviously making a spell an AoE vs a Sphere is better, but if you've read any of the job manifesto posts they discuss that the level of risk by running near a mob when casting the spell is intended.

With a sphere spell the added risk of needing to stay near the mob would allow for a more powerful buff because of the additional added risk.

[Septimus]

I agree on the aura / sphere effect would of been nice. I can get with the idea of sharing our buffs with those within range of us.

But I have to disagree with the whole "Party Invitations" thing, we don't do PT invites anymore because we don't have XP parties. Abyssea stuff is based entirely off procing skills, RDM could have "Cure VII" and WHM would still be picked over RDM due to them having the light procs. And everything after this is either lowman "friend" stuff, or big shell stuff. We really gotta get out of the pre abyssea "6 man XP Invites" mentality. Abysea XP groups now have 2~4 people afking and some lv 40 guy opening chests, alliance leaders /sh for invites for awhile before filling up, their not being picky about who joins. The only real job discrimination happens with abyssea proc's, which is outside the scope of this discussion.

The "Spell Slot" scare is not real, at least not server side. Their talking about a limit on the PS2 memory and the fact that every additional ~anything~ takes up precious kilobits of memory. Every JA, Spell, Item, Auto-Translation, Zone and Inventory item must fit inside a very small space for the PS2 client. They've been running out of that space for a long time, they scalped the auto-translate system to make more room for new game stuff but they can't do that much longer.

So SE isn't "wasting spell slots" because there are no spell slots, just PS2 memory. The PC clients wouldn't be effected provided SE branch's the client like their recent survey suggests they'll do.

Abyssea is over. People need to move past the "proc job" mentality because Square has made it clear that Voidwatch is where we are going to be getting items for the foreseeable future. Voidwatch cannot be low manned and every job is a possible proc job. But jobs are going to have to bring more to the table than the hopes that you have a proc.

What can RDM do in Voidwatch that another job can't do better? Do enfeebles land, and if so, is Paralyze II and Slow II that much better than Paralyze and Slow to justify a RDM over another WHM? Is Refresh II so much better than Ballad II and III to justify a RDM over a BRD that can do other songs to buff melee and tanks? Is Temper going to be awesome enough to justify a RDM over another DD?

Like I said, I am not necessarily convinced about the lack of new spell slots, but it is something that my be a possibility because of the PS2. As I said in my previous post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13838-SE-Temper-Activation-Rate?p=184205&viewfull=1#post184205), just by reclaiming unused spells there are about 180 data slots available for magic if the current spell list is at the limit. (Technically less than that since that doesn't count for Kaustra, Enbrava, Temper, and other new spells that are not currently named.) But there may be another limit that we do not know about. And yes, it probably would be because of the PS2, and no, removing PS2 support may not solve the problem.

[Seriha]

The problem with simply making Temper an aura is it just possibly changes where the caster RDM would stand. Without perpetuating via some kind of on-strike element from the RDM much like Sambas or TP drain per tic, it's hardly a melee buff if no other tools are offered to help eliminate the near-constant gripes against it.

[Bigboy]

Correction: SCH is the WHM/BLM hybrid. RDM is supposed to be the WHM/BLM/WAR hybrid.

No. You can tell this by the fact that it get NO good WS. NO good Job Abilities. Lackluster armor choices. The list goes on. Please don't tell me that it is supposed to be something it's not. That is like arguing that humans are supposed to fly because we built planes, then jumping off a cliff and flapping your arms expecting it to work. Just because you want it to be true, and the statement doesn't sound blatantly false, doesn't make you right.

And btw, I'm not saying this just out of spite for RDM. Mine is level 90, with an Almace and everything needed to bring a strong melee game. I just know it doesn't stand up compared to say... BLU in anything. I can do most of the same debuffs (and more!) on BLU and DD better on BLU than on RDM. What makes my RDM competitive is using staves and nuking stuff down, while tossing buffs/debuffs/cures.

There is no WAR component to a RDM. You are clearly unfamiliar with the job if you think there is. It begs the question: Are you trolling people? Did you just read this forum and side with every idiot that thinks FF1 RDM has something to do with a FFX1? It's a different game. The class is not the same. They didn't intend it to be melee, and it still isn't. The day I see RDM get vorpal/sanguine/ any red proc, I will reconsider the argument, but never until then.

[Stylin]

The day I see RDM get vorpal/sanguine/any red proc, I will reconsider the argument, but never until then.

We have Cyclone and Energy Drain natively. Just saying.

[Shiyo]

Yeah, RDM is literally 0% melee. It gets MAB job trait, it doesn't get attack bonus job trait, it gets fast cast, it doesn't get acc bonus or dual wield or delay reduction or ANYTHING to indicate it's intended to melee. It's a caster with melee abilities equal to that of a WHM or SMN or SCH or BLM, except it uses daggers and swords instead of clubs/staves. No good melee gear, crap weapon skills, crap damage, etc.

[FrankReynolds]

On the note about spell limitations... It may just be that they reference the number of possible spells in a way that would require them to re-code many other unrelated areas of the program. They may have initially made it that ways with PS2 in mind, and not be able to change it now due to the work involved. As much as I hope that the new survey is the beginning of the end for PS2 limits, there may still be a lot of PS2 stuff that can't be fixed.

Personally I think that SE should make a new FFXI with all the same mechanics stories, etc. on a updated platform, and then build from there. They might just get theire old player base back.

[saevel]

We have Cyclone and Energy Drain natively. Just saying.

Ya'll laugh, I've proced Cyclone / Energy Drain before while farming up 18 Sobek pops. Also seeing as I'm often /DRK, that gives me Seraph Blade / Red Lotus Blade.

And seeing as the preferred "Proc" team is WAR + NIN, the proc argument ends with (all players not WAR/NIN/MNK shouldn't be invited as their not optimal red proc).

[Septimus]

On the note about spell limitations... It may just be that they reference the number of possible spells in a way that would require them to re-code many other unrelated areas of the program. They may have initially made it that ways with PS2 in mind, and not be able to change it now due to the work involved. As much as I hope that the new survey is the beginning of the end for PS2 limits, there may still be a lot of PS2 stuff that can't be fixed.

Personally I think that SE should make a new FFXI with all the same mechanics stories, etc. on a updated platform, and then build from there. They might just get theire old player base back.

I doubt that a cost/benefit ratio would tell them that recoding a game that is nearly a decade old is worth it. For as much as we would love FFXI to look like FFXIV (it would be amazing) or just even kind of improved graphics and archetecture, I doubt that the shareholders would consider it economically feasible, especially since the game is such a cash cow with so little money put into development costs anymore.

[Scuro]

Shiyo = The most intelligent RDM I've heard in a long time, because she is actually trying to boost what the job is good at, and not at what it is god awful at. The job is not, nor ever will be a DD, hence BLU, if you can't accept that then sit around in your denial, but BLU was designed to be the DD mage that RDM could never be.

/applaud

P.S
Honestly I don't want Temper as a BLU, but I'm saying that it would actually get used effectively if it went to BLU. And I'm a career BLU, I just hate DD RDM and think its an idea for fans of the job from previous FF's and not realistic of the game we ACTUALLY play.

[Mightyg]

Sweeten the deal by bumping up the duration of Temper and Enspells to 5 mins.

[Karbuncle]

Yeah, RDM is literally 0% melee. It gets MAB job trait, it doesn't get attack bonus job trait, it gets fast cast, it doesn't get acc bonus or dual wield or delay reduction or ANYTHING to indicate it's intended to melee. It's a caster with melee abilities equal to that of a WHM or SMN or SCH or BLM, except it uses daggers and swords instead of clubs/staves. No good melee gear, crap weapon skills, crap damage, etc.

I agree with what you're saying, in a way... But claiming RDM gets "no good melee gear" is nothing short of ignorant.

Dusk/+1 gear, Calmacac Trousers, All the DD mantles (Atheling, Foragers, Cerberus, etc). RDM is on a high number of great DD Gear, and can even cap Equip haste with relative ease. It has the gear, But not the tools to make use of the gear. that is the problem.

[Shiyo]

LOL? RDM has gained like 3 new pieces of melee gear since 75, compare that to ANY other melee job in the game for a huge lol. The entire af3+2 set is also DESIGNED FOR CASTING, notice how the sets are perfectly designed for every single job? Yeah, you're supposed to be casting. RDM isn't even on twilight or bullwhip belt, making it need a speed belt, swift belt or goading belt. Zelus tiara and goading belt also don't count as new melee gear for RDM because they can be equipped by ALL jobs.

Also notice how RDM is only on the teal set(caster set) and not the perle(heavy DD) or aurore(light DD) sets? Going to take the hint yet?

Also, really? "cap equip haste with relative ease"? Are we playing the same game?

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/219073

I guess needing a SPEED BELT, dusk +1 feet, dusk +1 gloves, a zelus tiara(LOL @ ever getting that on RDM) and 2M pants is "cap equip haste with relative ease". You don't even have 26% haste with this gear, and would need a goliard saoi(another piece of level 75 gear yay? from something no one does, and has no other DD stats at all lol...) in order to reach 26% haste.

So from level 75 - > 90, RDM has gained a grand total of 2 pieces of new TP gear that isn't equippable by ALL jobs, atheling mantle and calmace trousers. Hey look, brd is on them too, should we go to the brd forums and make a 300 page thread DEMANDING a buff to our BRD meleeing abilities? Maybe we should!

Funny thing is, bard has access to much better WS and TP gear(hecatomb, byakkos, blah blah blah) than a RDM ever will, while also capping haste more easily and access to better daggers(magian daggers and twashtar). Not even mentioning the fact RDM doesn't get a single good sword WS natively, getting the same dagger weapon skills a bard gets. BRD DD LETS GO!!!!!

If that doesn't show why you have literally no idea what you're talking about, let me spell it out more easily for you:

RDM has gained 2 new pieces of DD gear since level 75, other DD jobs have gained an entire af3+2 set, and numerous other misc items, including the perle/aurore set and other AH/VW options.

RDM is not a melee DD job.

[Bigboy]

Ya'll laugh, I've proced Cyclone / Energy Drain before while farming up 18 Sobek pops. Also seeing as I'm often /DRK, that gives me Seraph Blade / Red Lotus Blade.

And seeing as the preferred "Proc" team is WAR + NIN, the proc argument ends with (all players not WAR/NIN/MNK shouldn't be invited as their not optimal red proc).

When that argument gets made, you can refute it with this statement. However, since I am merely referencing the fact that they aren't granted all the WS on their primary melee weapon, which differentiates them from every DD in the game, it's worth noting. I didn't mean to imply the WS were valuable, just that they lack them. Even Bluemage, which is not meant to really use clubs, but is granted skill with them, are given Seraph Strike and the rest of the club WS (Obviously not hexa).

Little things like this are key indicators that the job isn't supposed to be meleeing. BLM is another funny one, as they get Scythe, and while I don't think they should get guillotine, they also aren't given all the elemental WS the weapon gets. These are show pieces. They have no practical application.

[Duelle]

Personally I think that SE should make a new FFXI with all the same mechanics stories, etc. on a updated platform, and then build from there. They might just get theire old player base back.I'd only go for it if they decide to go with advance class/class specializations for each job instead of a subjob system, that way hybrids aren't swallowed in civil war like the RDM playerbase currently is.

If RDM was then to progress as

Red Mage
Option A: Magic Fencer
Option B: Support Caster

I'd be one happy taru.

[Shiyo]

Red Mage
Option A: Magic Fencer
Uh, that job exists. It's called blue mage.

[Duelle]

Uh, that job exists. It's called blue mage.And now we come full circle. Monster magic, pointy shoes and a scimitar does not equal pimp hat, rapier, and black/white magic.

[Karbuncle]

LOL? RDM has gained like 3 new pieces of melee gear since 75, compare that to ANY other melee job in the game for a huge lol.

The Quote was (And forgive me for paraphrasing) "RDM has no good gear choices for melee" and i said "You're wrong". Try sticking to the context of my words. I didn't say RDM was a good DD or it got a load of new 76+ DD Options.

ever.


The entire af3+2 set is also DESIGNED FOR CASTING, notice how the sets are perfectly designed for every single job? Yeah, you're supposed to be casting.

Irrelevant to what i said. You said RDM has no good DD gear. I said you were wrong. Please stick to what i said.


RDM isn't even on twilight or bullwhip belt, making it need a speed belt, swift belt or goading belt. Zelus tiara and goading belt also don't count as new melee gear for RDM because they can be equipped by ALL jobs.

Also Irrelevant? Where did i say they had new melee gear? I named the 1 piece i found relevant (Calmacac Trousers). Goading belt is a given though. That being said, Even though i agree RDM isn't a melee (I made the RDM magic thread Heyo), You're arguments are hideously flawed and its actually making "RDM magic" crowd look bad.


Also notice how RDM is only on the teal set(caster set) and not the perle(heavy DD) or aurore(light DD) sets? Going to take the hint yet?

How is this relevant again? "RDM has no good Melee gear choices" was the context of what you said. I proved you wrong. How is their gear selection 76+ Relevant?


Also, really? "cap equip haste with relative ease"? Are we playing the same game?

Goliard Saio.


I guess needing a SPEED BELT, dusk +1 feet, dusk +1 gloves, a zelus tiara

Zelus 8%
Goliard 4%
Goading 5%
Dusk Hands3%
Calmacac 3%
Dusk Feet 2%

Is 25%, HQ Feet or Hands and you get 26% (true 25% Cap). Dusk Feet/hands +1 are dirt cheap these days too compared to old prices. Its rather accessible.


(LOL @ ever getting that on RDM)

Guess someones doesn't have friends? That NM is killed so often Zelus' hit the ground. I guess it'd probably be hard for someone like you. You're a Sparky fella, So quick to get angry, you actually went on this lovely rant just because i pointed out RDM has a few good DD gear selections.

I even agree I don't feel RDM is a melee.


and 2M pants is "cap equip haste with relative ease".

I guess going to the Auction house is a bit difficult? oh well, If you can't afford Calmacac (lol) you can always get the ASA pants with Haste+3 i suppose. They aren't good for much else these days.


You don't even have 26% haste with this gear, and would need a goliard saoi

I'm sorry, Whats wrong with needing level 75 armor? Dusk+1 hands are still the best for a few jobs How is the level of the armor remotely related to its usefulness so long as its stats are still relevant?


from something no one does, and has no other DD stats at all lol...) in order to reach 26% haste.

Uh, Haste+4% is the only DD stat that matters on that body, Of course, but its a darn good one.


So from level 75 - > 90, RDM has gained a grand total of 2 pieces of new TP gear that isn't equippable by ALL jobs, atheling mantle and calmace trousers.

Relevant how?


Hey look, brd is on them too, should we go to the brd forums and make a 300 page thread DEMANDING a buff to our BRD meleeing abilities? Maybe we should!

Actually, Believe it or not, BRD is a great DD in Abyssea. But what isn't. Kinda irrelevant. But they can pump out some good Evisceration numbers, that and they can Self March, That puts them in a good spot.


Funny thing is, bard has access to much better WS and TP gear(hecatomb, byakkos, blah blah blah) than a RDM ever will, while also capping haste more easily and access to better daggers(magian daggers and twashtar). Not even mentioning the fact RDM doesn't get a single good sword WS natively, getting the same dagger weapon skills a bard gets. BRD DD LETS GO!!!!!

Still not in context with what i said, However, RDM can use Chant Du Cygne, which is leagues ahead of Rudras (unless you're a THF or DNC).

"Funny thing" is, You said (i'm paraphrasing) "RDM has no good options for DD Gear", and i named its good options. Dunno where this all came from.



RDM has gained 2 new pieces of DD gear since level 75, other DD jobs have gained an entire af3+2 set, and numerous other misc items, including the perle/aurore set and other AH/VW options.


Relevant how? Who cares if the Armor's level 72 If its still amazing DD gear?


RDM is not a melee DD job.

You seem to not understand what i'm saying, Here's a quote from me on your post:


I agree with what you're saying

This right here is me saying i agree RDM is not a melee, I was simply pointing out they have GEAR to melee. Who cares if its level 75 or lower when its there and actually decent armor?
.

[cidbahamut]

And now we come full circle. Monster magic, pointy shoes and a scimitar does not equal pimp hat, rapier, and black/white magic.
Box art does not a job make.

[Shiyo]

Level 76+ gear matters because every other REAL dd job got INSANE new gear. Keep thinking RDM got has good melee gear though, considering a BLM SMN BRD WHM has the same melee options almost, and brd even has better : ( No good "amazing" DD gear here, go read a real DD's jobs af3+2 to see real DD gear......not trash we used 15 levels ago. wtf.

Next time don't reply to my entire post with "no you're wrong, no you're 12, no you're raging, no you're immature, no irrelevant lulz!", thanks.

[Karbuncle]

Level 76+ gear matters because every other REAL dd job got INSANE new gear. Keep thinking RDM got good melee gear though, considering a BLM SMN BRD WHM has the same melee options almost, and brd even has better :(

I don't think RDM is a DD, I don't think they will ever become a DD based on SE's track record. My only argument was they have some Decent DD gear options.

Its just not enough to make them good at it. Nothing more nothing less. I feel RDM should be a Nuker/Enhancer/Enfeebler myself.

And for what its worth, Hecatomb+1 gear, augmented, is some of the best WS armor for the jobs on it. Level is irrelevant if the stats are still decent!


Next time don't reply to my entire post with "no you're wrong, no you're 12, no you're raging, no you're immature, no irrelevant lulz!", thanks.

I'll reply how i want, thanks.

Maybe next time try not to type a 3 paragraph rage fest simply because i called you out on what is the only 1 i disagreed with in your entire post. I agree RDM isn't a melee, I was only pointing out they have Melee gear. Its level is irrelevant as long as the stats are still amazing, and it is.

[Shiyo]

And now we come full circle. Monster magic, pointy shoes and a scimitar does not equal pimp hat, rapier, and black/white magic.

Blu is also a better nuker and healer than RDM, black/white magic what?

[FrankReynolds]

I doubt that a cost/benefit ratio would tell them that recoding a game that is nearly a decade old is worth it. For as much as we would love FFXI to look like FFXIV (it would be amazing) or just even kind of improved graphics and archetecture, I doubt that the shareholders would consider it economically feasible, especially since the game is such a cash cow with so little money put into development costs anymore.

haven't they done a few successful remakes of previous titles already?

[Shiyo]

I don't think RDM is a DD, I don't think they will ever become a DD based on SE's track record. My only argument was they have some Decent DD gear options.

Its just not enough to make them good at it. Nothing more nothing less. I feel RDM should be a Nuker/Enhancer/Enfeebler myself.

And for what its worth, Hecatomb+1 gear, augmented, is some of the best WS armor for the jobs on it. Level is irrelevant if the stats are still decent!
http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Goliard_Saio
vs
http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Mavi_Mintan_%2B2
and
http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Tantra_Cyclas_%2B2
etc etc
Also -acc makes for some good tp pants on a job with horrible acc~

rawr such good stats

w/e I don't care, don't call me ignorant when you still think we're level 75 and af3+2 doesn't exist for dd jobs

[Karbuncle]

http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Goliard_Saio
vs
http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Mavi_Mintan_%2B2
and
http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Tantra_Cyclas_%2B2
etc etc
Also -acc makes for some good tp pants on a job with horrible acc~

rawr such good stats

w/e I don't care, don't call me ignorant

You keep comparing it to what others get...

So because WAR has a Pair of Haste+5 Feet with CritDMG+10%, Should i say DRG, DRK, and SAM aren't DD's because they don't have those feet? The Feet they get are worse in comparison, So that, by your logic, means their DD choices aren't DD choices?

Your arguments are irrelevant comparisons. One job having DD armor doesn't mean other jobs don't have DD Armor because their DD Armor isn't as good as the first jobs.

Its not a difficult concept. I'm not saying their DD armor is the best and I'm not saying they're DD. I'm saying they have DD ARMOR SELECTIONS. Other jobs choices are irrelevant in the matter and I'm not sure why they keep being brought up.

The only point i was trying to make was that they have DD armor selections. I didn't say that made them a good DD, or that their armor choices were better than what others got. Stop taking what i say out of Context and we can stop arguing.

We're basically on the same side here anyway.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Rdm with Calm trousers in best setup would be about ~11(17 without N sash) accuracy and ~15 attack under Blu while whose best body armor is Mextli harness.

[Karbuncle]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

1) No, I'm a man

2) No, I've been on Asura my whole FFXI Career. Since before CoP Release. I got plenty who can vouch for that.

Edit: I think i know who you are talking about though. I read it on FFXIAH and on BG, I wish i could dig it up, It could be some lulz. I think that chick quit a long time ago though.

[Cursed]

1) No, I'm a man

2) No, I've been on Asura my whole FFXI Career. Since before CoP Release. I got plenty who can vouch for that.

Edit: I think i know who you are talking about though. I read it on FFXIAH and on BG, I wish i could dig it up, It could be some lulz. I think that chick quit a long time ago though.

ah sorry found the BG thread, it was "thesummoner" not "realsummoner"
apologies. I was hoping that chick had resurfaced... she stole my HQ staffs

[Karbuncle]

ah sorry found the BG thread, it was "thesummoner" not "realsummoner"
apologies. I was hoping that chick had resurfaced... she stole my HQ staffs

TheSummoner, Now i do remember. Thanks for that >_> Also my In-game name is Karbuncle, the sig i have was a joke on KORPGs' sig :3

[Daniel_Hatcher]

No. You can tell this by the fact that it get NO good WS. NO good Job Abilities. Lackluster armor choices. The list goes on. Please don't tell me that it is supposed to be something it's not. That is like arguing that humans are supposed to fly because we built planes, then jumping off a cliff and flapping your arms expecting it to work. Just because you want it to be true, and the statement doesn't sound blatantly false, doesn't make you right.

And btw, I'm not saying this just out of spite for RDM. Mine is level 90, with an Almace and everything needed to bring a strong melee game. I just know it doesn't stand up compared to say... BLU in anything. I can do most of the same debuffs (and more!) on BLU and DD better on BLU than on RDM. What makes my RDM competitive is using staves and nuking stuff down, while tossing buffs/debuffs/cures.

There is no WAR component to a RDM. You are clearly unfamiliar with the job if you think there is. It begs the question: Are you trolling people? Did you just read this forum and side with every idiot that thinks FF1 RDM has something to do with a FFX1? It's a different game. The class is not the same. They didn't intend it to be melee, and it still isn't. The day I see RDM get vorpal/sanguine/ any red proc, I will reconsider the argument, but never until then.

Wow! Just wow...

Like I said the JOB was advertised as WHM/BLM/WAR whether SE is now scared because of a select few RDM's soloing the stronger enemies in the beginning of the game isn't my problem, this doesn't change what the job is advertised as.

The armour choices again are a SE issue, they've stopped giving RDM the light armour it could always wear and started with giving it only mage-cloth armour, even to the point of limiting it off the same armour as BLU which they used to be on.

Interesting fact: They also said they'd be adjusting Weapon Skills in a previous post about RDM.

Final note: I never said as it stood it had any WAR style DD capability, only that it's what the job was originally classed as the mixture of, with SCH being the more capable WHM/BLM mage.

[Rayik]

Doesn't Composure give a melee Acc bonus? Just sayin.

Dusk feet and hands +1 are easy as hell to get now. I'm a broke-joke when it comes to gil, and I was able to scrape up a +1's of both. Gil is easy to get for anyone who feels like getting it. Just go to an Aby zone, get some pop items, sell them on the AH. You can make 100k from Aby-Altep easily, more if you get a Tiger King Hide from a chest. No synthing required. Re-buying Calmecac trousers asap.

Pretty much, everything on that list Karby stated above is within reach to anyone with a couple buddies. Two friends and I whooped Lacovie for a friend's Goading Belt, and I'm next on the list when I farm KI's. You can get KI's for Lacovie from chests now. Atheling Mantle is an amazing back piece, and 100% drop. You could probably find a group doing Orthrus, who would give you the item since the chances are good they all already have it. Goliard shouldn't be hard either, just do some Nyzule runs with someone who has floor access that high if you don't have access. That's next on my list.

The only snag I'm running into is the Zelus Tiara. Haven't got a lead on that yet, but between my couple of friends(and wife), we'll get ours when it's time.

Point is, between the capable Haste gear, Food for lolAccuracy, and spells like Temper(whose % scales with enhancing), and let's not forget SE has already said they have RDM in mind for the upcoming WS adjustments, I think there are plenty of valid reasons a RDM could melee something significant in the near future. Really sort of hinges on the WS adjustments, but still, we get several good Dagger WS's as is(Evisceration, Aeolian Edge, etc).

By significant, I mean something that other DD's are already melee'ing on. If it's one of those "OMFGTPMOVEGONNAKILLUSALL!!!!" mobs that not even the DD's are melee'ing on, then yeah, we're not gonna melee that(Voidwatch, some Caturae, etc).

[Urteil]

You're a man?


Well that explains a lot.

[saevel]

Ok if you guys haven't figured it out yet most of the people your responding to are just trying to troll you. Add them to your ignore list and go about your business. They'll go away once they realize there's no one listening to them and nothing they can hotlink to on BG.

For RDM melee gear, that is one of my beefs. We get no "uber gear" and everything we do get is moderately easy to obtain. I'm up soon to get my Tiara and after that my "upgrade" options become rather limited. There literally isn't much left other then a Maats cap (CDC WS piece).

We got Awesome weapon's, mediocre WS choices until CDC (Evis is pretty bad a$$). Of course CDC pretty much destroys anything else we have. My highest so far is 5.6K with averages of 3K ~4K on normal mobs and 2.4~3K on NM's, really depends if TA procs or not. Outside Abyssea it really depends what I'm fighting, 2~3K on things like Fafy / Nidhog / Jormy and T4 ZNM's is common. Did the same on that T4 VNM (the Dark Dragon of death). Haven't had a chance to test it on PW, I was purely a support mage during that fight.

VWNM's would depend on which one, I've seen UF's hit for 400 before and Fudo's hit for 100. VWNM's have crazy weird damage resistances / modifiers. Sometimes you hit them really hard, sometimes they laugh in your face.

Getting spike damage out of RDM isn't hard, especially if your there for stun. Most fights these days seem to be endurance contests that focus on quickly dealing spike damage then getting away before the NM kills the DDs.

But honestly, why are people trying to predict new "content" from SE? We don't know what their going to create next, nor do we know what direction their taking things in.

As far as the idiots claiming "Abyssea is Over", well just ignore them. The best gear currently comes from Abyssea, including the best weapon and weapon skill for each job. Abyssea also produces the best XP and easier way to cap merits, should they introduce another type at 99. The only way for Abyssea to "be dead / over" is for SE to create another system that gives better gear for similar effort and more XP then Abyssea. And seeing what the drop rate on VWNM's has been like, somehow I doubt they'll be doing that anytime soon. It's possible that they could release a new expansion for PC/360/PS3 (assuming new client) only and have it contain a different continent with a completely new rewards system. But that's far in the future and none of it is pertinent to the right now. So for the time being, Abyssea is still "End Game", as much as the elitists want to hate it since it means everyone can have the shiny gear not just them.

[Karbuncle]

You're a man?


Well that explains a lot.

Sexist against your own Sex? Shocking!

Sarcasm aside, never tried to hide it.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Sexist against your own Sex? Shocking!

Sarcasm aside, never tried to hide it.

Is it bad when I see a Mithra I instantly think: male?

[Karbuncle]

Is it bad when I see a Mithra I instantly think: male?

Nah, I do too. Surprisingly, my GF is a mithra though. NO she doesn't have a penis

RL Girlfriend. We live together thats how i know >_>. I think she originally was a hume F though, Then made a new char as the mithra waaaaaaaaay back. Hume F are fhugly anyway, Mithra > all

No idea how this is relevant but idle chitchat is fun :3 Bow down to your master Hume slaves

[SpankWustler]

Ok if you guys haven't figured it out yet most of the people your responding to are just trying to troll you. Add them to your ignore list and go about your business. They'll go away once they realize there's no one listening to them and nothing they can hotlink to on BG.

For RDM melee gear, that is one of my beefs. We get no "uber gear" and everything we do get is moderately easy to obtain. I'm up soon to get my Tiara and after that my "upgrade" options become rather limited. There literally isn't much left other then a Maats cap (CDC WS piece).

You mean some of the people who also responded negatively to Shiyo because lame one-liners are lame, or the two "trolls" who briefly had a disagreement about a half-dozen posts before this one? Sorry to spoil things for you, but there's no conspiracy afoot. While I will admit to sifting through your garbage, that's just because you tossed half a sandwich yesterday and I'm kind of hungry.

It is puzzling that Red Mage vanished from a lot of the new light melee sets yet still gets spells to increase it's melee output. Similar to how Red Mage gets tons of mage gear but almost no new enfeebling, enhancing, or healing magic. I assume these phenomena are due to a weird conception of balance that non-SE minds can't wrap themselves around. Check out their feelings on Aura Steal if you really want to twist your mind into a pretzel.


As far as the idiots claiming "Abyssea is Over", well just ignore them. The best gear currently comes from Abyssea, including the best weapon and weapon skill for each job. Abyssea also produces the best XP and easier way to cap merits, should they introduce another type at 99. The only way for Abyssea to "be dead / over" is for SE to create another system that gives better gear for similar effort and more XP then Abyssea. And seeing what the drop rate on VWNM's has been like, somehow I doubt they'll be doing that anytime soon. It's possible that they could release a new expansion for PC/360/PS3 (assuming new client) only and have it contain a different continent with a completely new rewards system. But that's far in the future and none of it is pertinent to the right now. So for the time being, Abyssea is still "End Game", as much as the elitists want to hate it since it means everyone can have the shiny gear not just them.

Your extraordinarily unpleasant tone aside, this is true enough. Abyssea will remain extremely relevant for quite some time and will be forever relevant to some extent. Dynamis is ancient, and many people were still happy about the changes that make it easier to duo/trio for coins.

[SpankWustler]

You're a man?


Well that explains a lot.

I could dig up the context for this post, but I really like it better just hanging here in space. Somebody is a man, and that somehow clarifies things for Urteil.

[Karbuncle]

I could dig up the context for this post, but I really like it better just hanging here in space. Somebody is a man, and that somehow clarifies things for Urteil.

I'm not sure what the context of this post is either. "Well that explains the penis"

Now I'm confused, What about me screamed "Man" to the point it explains a lot that i am a man. Lady Gaga?

[SpankWustler]

I'm not sure what the context of this post is either.

Now I'm confused, What about me screamed "Man" to the point it explains a lot that i am a man.

I was planning to say "The way you forgot to close your robe before posting this morning." but your transparent text has preemptively thwarted my lame joke. You win this round, Krabnuckle.

[Karbuncle]

Mwuahahahahaha

[Mirabelle]

Please replace temper with a job ability or job trait that enhances our enfeebles with greatly increased macc or add a new useful enfeeble(AND DONT GIVE IT TO WHM LATER WTF). Thanks~

I'm all for this. Wouldn't it be nice to be the job that could actually silence an un-silenceable enemy. Stun an unstunable foe. Paralyze an Ice based mob. It's sad that on WHM I have no more trouble enfeebling NM's than I do on RDM. I'd take the ability to be truly a master of enfeebles over a DA magic spell any day.

[Rayik]

I'm all for this. Wouldn't it be nice to be the job that could actually silence an un-silenceable enemy. Stun an unstunable foe. Paralyze an Ice based mob. It's sad that on WHM I have no more trouble enfeebling NM's than I do on RDM. I'd take the ability to be truly a master of enfeebles over a DA magic spell any day.

Relax, Temper isn't the only thing we're getting before 99.

[Doombringer]

man.. this is boring.. the rdm forums have about 300 pages of the PRETTY MUCH the same 2 things being screamed back and forth.. i don't post all that often but i do read it all.. man that shiyo really is annoying huh?

btw, I have a zelus tiara on MY rdm shiyo.. but why don't you scream harder about what i can and can't do... you know, again...

[Crimson_Slasher]

I got a zeal tiara myself, from a pickup group actually, someone tried to brew panty, failed, killed, popped in pool, and lead went "ALL FREELOT" and i lotted a 943 in a 16 man alliance. All in all, a good day.

[Doombringer]

i got mine with my ls, first dibs actually.

for all the lolmeleerdm that flies around, most normal players understand quid pro quo. if you helped the ls, and earned X item, they'll help you get it. regardless of what job you're gonna use it on.

they helped me with almace to.. granted it was like the sixth emp we did, and i had a hand in all the previous 5.. but that's just paying your dues. doesn't matter what job you are.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

i got mine with my ls, first dibs actually.

for all the lolmeleerdm that flies around, most normal players understand quid pro quo. if you helped the ls, and earned X item, they'll help you get it. regardless of what job you're gonna use it on.

they helped me with almace to.. granted it was like the sixth emp we did, and i had a hand in all the previous 5.. but that's just paying your dues. doesn't matter what job you are.

You've got a decent linkshell then, that's rare.

[saevel]

i got mine with my ls, first dibs actually.

for all the lolmeleerdm that flies around, most normal players understand quid pro quo. if you helped the ls, and earned X item, they'll help you get it. regardless of what job you're gonna use it on.

they helped me with almace to.. granted it was like the sixth emp we did, and i had a hand in all the previous 5.. but that's just paying your dues. doesn't matter what job you are.

Same here, shell did my Almace and most of my AF+2 for RDM / BLU with WAR / DRK / PLD / SAM on free lot. We got just about everyone an Emp now. That was our goal so that we start new content with everyone maxed out.

[Septimus]

Ok if you guys haven't figured it out yet most of the people your responding to are just trying to troll you. Add them to your ignore list and go about your business. They'll go away once they realize there's no one listening to them and nothing they can hotlink to on BG.

...

As far as the idiots claiming "Abyssea is Over", well just ignore them. The best gear currently comes from Abyssea, including the best weapon and weapon skill for each job. Abyssea also produces the best XP and easier way to cap merits, should they introduce another type at 99. The only way for Abyssea to "be dead / over" is for SE to create another system that gives better gear for similar effort and more XP then Abyssea. And seeing what the drop rate on VWNM's has been like, somehow I doubt they'll be doing that anytime soon. It's possible that they could release a new expansion for PC/360/PS3 (assuming new client) only and have it contain a different continent with a completely new rewards system. But that's far in the future and none of it is pertinent to the right now. So for the time being, Abyssea is still "End Game", as much as the elitists want to hate it since it means everyone can have the shiny gear not just them.

And this is what is wrong with the internet. So many people are unable to discern between people who disagree with them and people who are trolling them. Just because someone has a differing opinion than yours does not mean that he/she is a troll, he/she may just have a differing opinion.

Abyssea is over. There are not going to be new Abyssea zones and it is highly unlikely that there will be new NMs and gear added to it for the foreseeable future. They will probably make some more adjustments to it, but new gear is going to come from someplace else. Does that mean that Abyssea is going away? No. It has great gear, lots of XP, and is the most fun added to FFXI in pretty much ever. But Sky and Land Kings didn't go away when Dynamis was added, Dynamis didn't go away when Limbus was added, Limbus didn't go away when Jailers were added, Jailers didn't go away when Salvage was added, Salvage didn't go away when Einherjar was added, Einherjar didn't go away when ZNM was added, ZNM didn't go away when Stronghold Invasion was added, Stronghold Invasion didn't go away when VNM was added.

Over doesn't mean forgotten, Dynamis has been practically unchanged since I started doing it way back before CoP, but it got a complete overhaul making it into a much more fun event. Maybe sometime down the line Abyssea will get a facelift, not that it really needs it, but for now the focus of the game has shifted elsewhere. People have to get past the mindset that Abyssea is the end-all-be-all of end-game and that how we play in Abyssea is how the rest of the game works. It is highly unlikely that those "best weapon and weapon skill for each job" (most BSTs are going to disagree with you there) are going to get their upgrades from Abyssea anymore. Why? Because Square has new content (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13536) that they want to make us do and keeping us doing old content, even if it is fun and rewarding, is not going to make us do new content.

So once more I do my Cassandra routine, Abyssea is over (although it is not going to go away any time soon), Voidwatch is the face of the future. Ignore it at your own peril.

[Karbuncle]

Just because someone has a differing opinion than yours does not mean that he/she is a troll, he/she may just have a differing opinion.


Just because someone has a differing opinion than yours does not mean that he/she is a troll, he/she may just have a differing opinion.


Just because someone has a differing opinion than yours does not mean that he/she is a troll, he/she may just have a differing opinion.

I shall repost this whenever someone calls someone a troll.

[SpankWustler]

i got mine with my ls, first dibs actually.

for all the lolmeleerdm that flies around, most normal players understand quid pro quo. if you helped the ls, and earned X item, they'll help you get it. regardless of what job you're gonna use it on.

they helped me with almace to.. granted it was like the sixth emp we did, and i had a hand in all the previous 5.. but that's just paying your dues. doesn't matter what job you are.

It's good to hear about a positive experience for once. For all the rhetoric that so many people spout on here, I'd like to think this is the case with most groups nowadays. One of the advantages of FFXI being an older game is that things are far more chilled out now, so mentality seems to have shifted towards getting your bros and bro-ettes stuff they'll enjoy even if that stuff isn't going to make the group more efficient.


So once more I do my Cassandra routine, Abyssea is over (although it is not going to go away any time soon), Voidwatch is the face of the future. Ignore it at your own peril.

I imagine you waking up with this vision late one night, soaked by a cold sweat. You shot out of bed, called your closest friend, and said in a sad monoton, "I see a Riftworn Pyxis. It contains two Ebony Logs and one Gold Ore. A Galka is standing beside it. He is staring at the contents. He is crying."

If the Japanese .dats from the test server are any indication, you're 200% right. Some of the upcoming equipment is amazing, and I'd bet both left and right moobs that most of it comes from VoidWatch.

[Shiyo]

Gear from voidwatch might as well not exist at all. It basically doesn't exist in my mind, I pretend anything from voidwatch that I can't buy off the AH isn't actually in the game, it's too rare/random to get, horrible design.

[Karbuncle]

Wonder how you survived in salvage if you think Voidwatch drop rates are bad ... o.o

[Shiyo]

Finished usu boots(only usu piece I wanted) in less than a week. Voidwatch drops are completely random and as rare as salvage drops, watching people who have bard at level1 get the harp off the harpy or other retarded things is just ........

Words cannot describe how badly designed the loot system is.

[Karbuncle]

Their intents were in the right place (Everyone being rewarded for their effort, Overcoming 10 pool limits, etc)... But without an Option to Pool a drop, or give it to someone... it does kind of fall on its ass.

However, If you could pool drops, Imagine how quickly we might burn through the content? They have to include some time sinks or the game gets old and we get Abyssea-Syndrome again (finish everything and get burned out in a week)

[saevel]

Abyssea if far from over, Guku is still mega camped. People still building emp weapons, still farming +1/+2 armor. Tons of stuff going on. And while SE might not add more stuff, but they don't need to, Abyssea can easily last the next 6 months with what's in there. Unless your talking the top 5% of the game population that burns through everything, the guys that used to do kings and complain when SE made gear readily available to "lessor" players. Yeah you guys pretty much finished Abyssea and there isn't much left for you to do now, go cry in a corner already. SE has now shifted the game towards the 90%+ population that does things with friends when given the chance and doesn't burn through content instantly upon release. This has been a profitable decision for SE.

VWNM is cool, loot distribution is similar to salvage. Most of the decent items are from T4's, and its ultra low drop rate.

Trolls are people who's whole purpose in posting is to piss other posters off, they don't attempt rational debate. You can always tell who trolls are by their attitudes, "RDM meleez is deh suckz" is pretty much a troll post.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Must be server based, Once the JPs go to sleep we've found Guku camping goes way down. You can get the KI in chest now anyway.

Rdm melee does suck compared to heavy DDs. This isn't a troll post. I do it, I enjoy it, I don't doubt for a second it sucks on anything worthwhile. I only take comfort in the fact Rdm's white/ws damage with CDC isn't -that- far below Blu's (of course, no Ca/Efflux/quick casting high damage spells that SC with WS, WS damage on Rdm is approximately ~300 below Blu in best setups as of 90 cap, couldn't get 25% haste in best melee set at 90, etc).

I don't have a problem with making drops not pool-able, but the drop rate on some items is horrid, from what I've seen posted so far it's averaging below Ridill on some of the body drops from T4.

[Septimus]

Abyssea if far from over, Guku is still mega camped. People still building emp weapons, still farming +1/+2 armor. Tons of stuff going on. And while SE might not add more stuff, but they don't need to, Abyssea can easily last the next 6 months with what's in there. Unless your talking the top 5% of the game population that burns through everything, the guys that used to do kings and complain when SE made gear readily available to "lessor" players. Yeah you guys pretty much finished Abyssea and there isn't much left for you to do now, go cry in a corner already. SE has now shifted the game towards the 90%+ population that does things with friends when given the chance and doesn't burn through content instantly upon release. This has been a profitable decision for SE.

VWNM is cool, loot distribution is similar to salvage. Most of the decent items are from T4's, and its ultra low drop rate.

Trolls are people who's whole purpose in posting is to piss other posters off, they don't attempt rational debate. You can always tell who trolls are by their attitudes, "RDM meleez is deh suckz" is pretty much a troll post.

Abyssea is over. "Over" means "no more major content to be added". It does not mean that players aren't going to do it anymore, it is just not the focus of the game like it has been for the last year or so. My linkshell still did Dynamis and Limbus practically every week until they raised the level cap to 80, but for all intents and purposes those events were over and mostly unchanged (a few extra gears added and drop rate increase for Dynamis, price reductions on both) for many, many years.

Contrary to popular belief, I am not a super-elitist. Yes, I was doing Dynamis and camping Fafnir before most of the people on these forums even heard of FFIX, but I am old and tired now, I can't compete with kids today. I appreciate Abyssea because it is fun, challenging (since everything is done lowman), and most importantly, very rewarding. That is the difference between Abyssea and pretty much everything else in FFXI, you do it, you have a good time, AND you get stuff. (Trust me, I used to do Jailers, killing monsters and getting rewarded for it would have been considered a novel concept back during CoP!) While I have a decent amount of +2 Empyrean Armor, I don't have a weapon, and from the looks of things I will never get one. I still have plenty to do in Abyssea because I have to gear nine jobs on two characters and am working on a tenth.

But my point is, Voidwatch is the future. Square's plan was to usher people into end-game, that is Voidwatch. (Complete with the terrible mobs and horrible drop rates!) Red Mage needs something extra to be relevant in Voidwatch, but sadly the job is going to be left behind for specialists who can do everything RDMs can do, but better. Temper could have been it had it been an aura effect with a decent proc rate, instead it is going to be a self-only spell with a joke of a proc rate.

[saevel]

Rdm melee does suck compared to heavy DDs. This isn't a troll post.

Strawman,

Look over the posts of the people who said that, they were always preceded by or followed by "don't give RDM's temper because their melee is deh suckz", or "why is it self cast when RDM melee is deh suckz", or "it's a useless spell and a waste of the slot because RDM melee is deh suckz" and so on so forth. Basically "RDM melee is deh suckz" is used as an excuse to force a buff for every melee job. There is a difference between "our melee is hurting, we need an update" to "your melee sucks, you shouldn't get an update, not shut up, buff me and bring me my sammich". And that is the line in the sand. I've done this debate for the better part of seven years, I've already seen every last one of these arguments and the retorts and just about everything that will possibly be said has already been said. It's easy to see people's attitude towards anything related to "RDM Melee", and the negative ones want nothing better then to set RDM's sword / dagger skill at 0, give them Cure V and tell us to shut up and make them a sammich.


But my point is, Voidwatch is the future. Square's plan was to usher people into end-game, that is Voidwatch. (Complete with the terrible mobs and horrible drop rates!) Red Mage needs something extra to be relevant in Voidwatch, but sadly the job is going to be left behind for specialists who can do everything RDMs can do, but better. Temper could have been it had it been an aura effect with a decent proc rate, instead it is going to be a self-only spell with a joke of a proc rate.

Complete and utter BS. If this was true then I wouldn't be coming RDM for every non-abyssea event. I have BLU, WAR, SAM, PLD all extremely well geared, Full Emp +2 and Almace. I'm also recently LV 90 WHM, although we have plenty of those and should we ever need another WHM I can always bring my alt char who is a full Emp+2 WHM. With the shear amounts of FC we get we end up being the games #1 best stunners, along with having a survivability rate similar to a PLD. That alone is worth a spot, but then we go into my two favorite spells, Slow II and Dia III, the first being useful if the NM use's frequent melee attacks, and the second being amazing for increasing everyone's, especially the tanks damage over time. The damage we do in a boss battle is just icing on the cake. Actually there is very little difference between Abyssea and VWNM's, aside from players not having crour buffs / atmas. Your still procing things to increase drop rates, and most importantly your procing white to inflict the terror and have all your melees (RDM included) run in and do as much damage as possible to increase your spectral alignment bonus. Abyssea was all about procing yellow/blue then red and then having your melee zerg it while it's terrorized and kill it before it moves again.

And WTF BS about Temper? Are you conveniently forgetting that SE is changing it to scale with Enhancing magic? It's looking like your just pissed cause your BLU / PLD / whatever wont' be getting the effect.

Or were you one that ran around doing everything with MNK + WHM...

[Neisan_Quetz]

I don't feel it's 'our melee is hurting and we need an update', I think it's 'our melee is hurting but we have other things that need looking at before any melee updates, which while nice aren't a huge issue'. It isn't a strawman, it isn't hard to see Rdm melee will and does fail against stronger Nms. Even with Almace we're still behind Blu in best sets and against stronger targets their white damage suffers as well (not as badly as most of their spells without CA/Efflux).

And considering what SE just did to Heavy Strike after people were using it on the test server, I'd be happy to not get nerfed again. Or having a few removed.

[SpankWustler]

I don't feel it's 'our melee is hurting and we need an update', I think it's 'our melee is hurting but we have other things that need looking at before any melee updates, which while nice aren't a huge issue'. It isn't a strawman, it isn't hard to see Rdm melee will and does fail against stronger Nms. Even with Almace we're still behind Blu in best sets and against stronger targets their white damage suffers as well (not as badly as most of their spells without CA/Efflux).

This single paragraph is the most accurate depiction of anything in FFXI that has ever graced this forum. I want to make out with this paragraph.

[saevel]

'our melee is hurting but we have other things that need looking at before any melee updates, which while nice aren't a huge issue'

Like what exactly. Are you seriously with a straight face trying to tell me that RDM's mage components are hurting more then the melee side? RDM is equal parts BLM,WHM,WAR, not WHM ... then BLM ... then maybe WAR. SE already created a job that masters WHM and BLM magic, it's called SCH. BLU is not RDM, no where close, heck if anything BLU's should be wanting a RDM around them always as Dia III is one of the few ways to jack up the damage on BLU physical spells.

Or were you one of the "SE give us Cure V so we can be WHM's again" crowd?

The fact that you haven't been added to my ignore list means I don't consider you a troll. But I will have to ask, have you ever done a serious RDM melee build?

You guys keep talking about "reason to be there" and "invite rate", which is completely and utter bull sh!t. Are you seriously attempting VWNM's in a pick up group? RDM already has plenty of functions and reasons to "be there", Refresh II with AF2 pants along will guaranteed you a spot with the WHMs, although I hate using that as a reason, still it's one. Then of course the Stun / Slow III / Dia III combo is extremely useful, locking out a single TP move consistently makes many T3/T4 VWNM's easier. Then you have T4 nukes for ranged magic damage, and various crowd control options if SE ever creates another Dynamis / Limbus style event. And on top all that you have enough self buffs to make yourself nigh invincible. This is all before considering the melee side, which isn't weak in the slightest.

In fact let me clear some BS up about that, cause I'm tired of a bunch of noobs making claims they know nothing about. RDM's melee side is not weak, don't ever think that. It needs work due to years of SE ignoring it. RDM lacks the ~GEAR~ and that's it, and seeing from the test server .dat's SE is now correcting that by putting RDM back on the haste / TP gear sets. RDM can get 25% haste and capped acc, we suffer in the attack field, but so does BLU. RDM actually only has slightly lower attack then BLU, we're talking 20 or so attack. And if the RDM is /DRK then they have more attack then BLU, but that's a special sub for specific situations. I use Bison Steak on both, Accuracy hasn't been an issue since 75, and anything that RDM will have an acc issue on BLU will to and thus Pizza +1 will be employed. The biggest dependency was that BLU's get Vorpal Blade natively while RDM is forced to use Evisceration. RDM's are on all the nice swords but aren't on any of the nice daggers. RDM's do get Aeolian Edge and can deal good damage with it so they can participate in the mass farming / amber light farming abyssea groups. And seeing that SE is looking at weapon skill distribution, we might be getting sword EX WS's soon which nullifys this entire argument instantly.

So please tell me, what is your experience with all this, or are you just speaking out of "what everyone knows" type ignorance? Cause the more you talk the close your argument sounds to "RDM melee is deh suckz, don't bother, now get to the back and buff me, and bring me my sammich".

[SpankWustler]

Like what exactly. Are you seriously with a straight face trying to tell me that RDM's mage components are hurting more then the melee side? RDM is equal parts BLM,WHM,WAR, not WHM ... then BLM ... then maybe WAR. SE already created a job that masters WHM and BLM magic, it's called SCH. BLU is not RDM, no where close, heck if anything BLU's should be wanting a RDM around them always as Dia III is one of the few ways to jack up the damage on BLU physical spells.

Or were you one of the "SE give us Cure V so we can be WHM's again" crowd?

The fact that you haven't been added to my ignore list means I don't consider you a troll. But I will have to ask, have you ever done a serious RDM melee build?

You guys keep talking about "reason to be there" and "invite rate", which is completely and utter bull sh!t. Are you seriously attempting VWNM's in a pick up group? RDM already has plenty of functions and reasons to "be there", Refresh II with AF2 pants along will guaranteed you a spot with the WHMs, although I hate using that as a reason, still it's one. Then of course the Stun / Slow III / Dia III combo is extremely useful, locking out a single TP move consistently makes many T3/T4 VWNM's easier. Then you have T4 nukes for ranged magic damage, and various crowd control options if SE ever creates another Dynamis / Limbus style event. And on top all that you have enough self buffs to make yourself nigh invincible. This is all before considering the melee side, which isn't weak in the slightest.

In fact let me clear some BS up about that, cause I'm tired of a bunch of noobs making claims they know nothing about. RDM's melee side is not weak, don't ever think that. It needs work due to years of SE ignoring it. RDM lacks the ~GEAR~ and that's it, and seeing from the test server .dat's SE is now correcting that by putting RDM back on the haste / TP gear sets. RDM can get 25% haste and capped acc, we suffer in the attack field, but so does BLU. RDM actually only has slightly lower attack then BLU, we're talking 20 or so attack. And if the RDM is /DRK then they have more attack then BLU, but that's a special sub for specific situations. I use Bison Steak on both, Accuracy hasn't been an issue since 75, and anything that RDM will have an acc issue on BLU will to and thus Pizza +1 will be employed. The biggest dependency was that BLU's get Vorpal Blade natively while RDM is forced to use Evisceration. RDM's are on all the nice swords but aren't on any of the nice daggers. RDM's do get Aeolian Edge and can deal good damage with it so they can participate in the mass farming / amber light farming abyssea groups. And seeing that SE is looking at weapon skill distribution, we might be getting sword EX WS's soon which nullifys this entire argument instantly.

So please tell me, what is your experience with all this, or are you just speaking out of "what everyone knows" type ignorance? Cause the more you talk the close your argument sounds to "RDM melee is deh suckz, don't bother, now get to the back and buff me, and bring me my sammich".

Blue Mage isn't an excellent melee by any definition, and Red Mage is a smidgen worse at hitting things than Blue Mage. If you standard is just "a job that doesn't fall flat on it's face when it tries to swing a pointy thing at a monster-shaped thing" than either job can do just fine. In some situations, both jobs do perform just fine while hitting things.

In other situations, a Blue Mage is better off using Charged Whisker half-way across a zone while a Red Mage and a White Mage support a Warrior. Sometimes that Blue Mage is better off cycling 567 proc spells and hating his or her life while the Red Mage focuses on Cures and either Stuns or status removal spells.

I guess my point is that a Blue Mage isn't a very good standard of comparison for "this job hits things with things!" because Blue Mage just doesn't hit things as well as people advertize.

[Scuro]

Like what exactly. Are you seriously with a straight face trying to tell me that RDM's mage components are hurting more then the melee side? RDM is equal parts BLM,WHM,WAR, not WHM ... then BLM ... then maybe WAR. SE already created a job that masters WHM and BLM magic, it's called SCH. BLU is not RDM, no where close, heck if anything BLU's should be wanting a RDM around them always as Dia III is one of the few ways to jack up the damage on BLU physical spells.

Or were you one of the "SE give us Cure V so we can be WHM's again" crowd?

The fact that you haven't been added to my ignore list means I don't consider you a troll. But I will have to ask, have you ever done a serious RDM melee build?

You guys keep talking about "reason to be there" and "invite rate", which is completely and utter bull sh!t. Are you seriously attempting VWNM's in a pick up group? RDM already has plenty of functions and reasons to "be there", Refresh II with AF2 pants along will guaranteed you a spot with the WHMs, although I hate using that as a reason, still it's one. Then of course the Stun / Slow III / Dia III combo is extremely useful, locking out a single TP move consistently makes many T3/T4 VWNM's easier. Then you have T4 nukes for ranged magic damage, and various crowd control options if SE ever creates another Dynamis / Limbus style event. And on top all that you have enough self buffs to make yourself nigh invincible. This is all before considering the melee side, which isn't weak in the slightest.

In fact let me clear some BS up about that, cause I'm tired of a bunch of noobs making claims they know nothing about. RDM's melee side is not weak, don't ever think that. It needs work due to years of SE ignoring it. RDM lacks the ~GEAR~ and that's it, and seeing from the test server .dat's SE is now correcting that by putting RDM back on the haste / TP gear sets. RDM can get 25% haste and capped acc, we suffer in the attack field, but so does BLU. RDM actually only has slightly lower attack then BLU, we're talking 20 or so attack. And if the RDM is /DRK then they have more attack then BLU, but that's a special sub for specific situations. I use Bison Steak on both, Accuracy hasn't been an issue since 75, and anything that RDM will have an acc issue on BLU will to and thus Pizza +1 will be employed. The biggest dependency was that BLU's get Vorpal Blade natively while RDM is forced to use Evisceration. RDM's are on all the nice swords but aren't on any of the nice daggers. RDM's do get Aeolian Edge and can deal good damage with it so they can participate in the mass farming / amber light farming abyssea groups. And seeing that SE is looking at weapon skill distribution, we might be getting sword EX WS's soon which nullifys this entire argument instantly.

So please tell me, what is your experience with all this, or are you just speaking out of "what everyone knows" type ignorance? Cause the more you talk the close your argument sounds to "RDM melee is deh suckz, don't bother, now get to the back and buff me, and bring me my sammich".

Benthic Typhoon, please check it, a spell in which just about every Physical BLU has equipped does 10% Physical and Magical damage down, while your Dia III does 15%. Thats great and all, but Why would I NEED a RDM? sure that 5% sounds nice, but why sacrifice things that would further benefit the group, just so I have have an additional 10% physical down and not 10% Magical down to benefit my nukers? And you are right with the middle section of this, you are wanted for those said buffs and debuffs. What your not wanted there for is DD. Every RDM's argument is that they have better acc and can parse better then a BLU in terms of sword DPS..... Thats great.... Too bad that really isn't what a BLU purely does in terms of damage (unless your rockin an almace). I had a RDM brag to me that he was hitting more accurately then I was by 15%, to which I simply replied "ya but the difference is it takes me 2 minutes to kill a mob and it takes you DD'n for 7 to kill one."

There is a reason why BLU was introduced to this game, it was to provide DD RDMs the ability to play a true DD hybrid mage class that was meant to be frontlined. You are right that SCH is a better mage hybrid as it stands then a RDM, however, I feel a RDM should be a better buffer then a SCH, and as it stands, it is not. So why waste time, effort, and consideration on a class that will not DD unless it starts to get DD JA's and actual DD gear that makes it competitive with other DD classes. When they should be establishing the class as the buffer and debuffer class that it is. To exceed at benefitting the party by killing mobs faster, rather then dragging out fights because you think your sword is going to make a big difference in the grand scheme of a party. Whenever a DD RDM tells me that he DD's to "benefit the party" I roll my eyes, because it is pure selfishness as to why they do it. A BLU however benefits a party, hell I open just about every fight with a Benthic Typhoon so I can help the mages and the DD's at the same time.

As it stands, the only reason a RDM is needed for anything, is because VoidWatch requires just about every job in the game, outside of that, the class is practically lack luster. Its not desired, and woopdie doo, Refresh II, why take a class that really is only desired for 1 buff, when practically most mages these days /RDM if they really need the MP? The job needs more buffs for me to say "we need a RDM!" and thats the thing RDMs should be going for, buffs that make it desirable and make SCHs take a back seat. Not trying to compete with BLU or get more mediocre DD skills (Temper lol, so basically ever DD RDM's Joyeuse just got a +1, and I mean a joy toy was seriously why everybody invited RDM to be a DD RDM right!?.... Wrong, even with double attack the job still wasn't desired, so why would it be now? The problem isn't how many times you can hit, or how accurate you hit, the problem is that jobs hit faster, and more then a RDM, harder then a RDM, and actually have traits to enhance them as a DD class. So why compete in a fight your already loosing, when you could compete in a fight that you were meant to win?)

[Crimson_Slasher]

While that may be true at times, more often than not it comes down to lack of discouraging the bluemage from doing those exact things. Additionally many rdms (myself included) seem to view the game as being a web of tree-chart categories. This is partly having to do with armor sets and the like being lumped to certain jobs, in example, the mage classes (See teal set) the support damage classes (See aurore set) and the armor classes (see perle). But the waters begin to get muddy with crossovers, Blu for example is blessed with access to teal, and aurore, as is brd, bst gets aurore and perle, which can cause some confusion. This is partly where things get even muddier is rdms see themselves as cousins to blu, as war and drk do, being similar in function, and for a VERY long time, sharing equipment in many slots, but then we watch as blu is granted the same buffs as us and more, superior selection of traits (and stat mods from their spells) and lastly a wider gear selection. Its simple to say rdm shouldnt melee because we arent on a lot of melee gear, but people also say brd shouldnt melee, and theyre on hecatomb, osode, and various other sets.

So we as rdm look at the good melee gear we DO get (like aethling, warwolf, etc) and the swords we keep being given and we see some fun options, but in practice, we are met with resistance, and in asking for enhancements to step out of the obscurity, we are further met with resistance and are shunned by our peers. I personally love my melee rdm build, but the i can look at so many other classes and just feel inadequate, is it rdm itself? Not hardly, is it skill? Nope, especially with composure, accuracy is less an issue, and my buffs, while timeconsuming to cast, are an aspect i LOVE about meleeing on rdm. However to bring back the point most people have to say, it comes to gear and ws access more than anything, we have great weapons, and ws can be bypassed by those with almace or mock empy sword, but our gear pales in comparison to...bard... among many other classes, now if rdm had access to aurore...not a lot would change, but youd see less teal/af melee rdms, if they changed their mind and added us to the hauberk sets, then you might mistake a rdm for a pld here or there even, but sadly neither of these is the case at this time. And the problem is only made worse when you start looking at rdm's subjob selection. A step in the right direction if you ask me is more melee oriented gear (shields included, i personally dependant on function use my genbu (19hp 4% cure pot.) or my sentinel shield (3 str and 1% haste) as shields of choice when meleeing, but then i frown, because our shield skill was quite some time ago, and to this day, remains gimped.

But i stand on the statment that its not the job itself that pales when it comes to melee performance, but the options given to us. On a somewhat related note, id like to see rdm get back their C- (or possibly B-, B, or B+?) shield skill, since they do still seem to want us to use shields, i mean, if we are gonna use em, why cant we use em better?

Edit:
Also that last line of your post made no sense scuro. We are losing on all fronts arguably, cor and brd can buff and debuff better in many situations as they can when it comes to croud control. Whm, and sometimes sch, blu, and dnc can heal as well or superior. Blm, sch, and at times pup can nuke superiorly, as can smn. Lastly a good chunk of the jobs can out melee us. We may be MENT to win buffing and debuffing, but as it stands we are still losing there, and no matter what single target or accession buffs they add, it wont add up when other jobs can keep them up easier and more consistantly for less effort. And lastly we are atleast on the same page with healing, buffing, debuffing, nuking, even croud control, but we arent even on the map when it comes to physical damage, and as our archery is lackluster, and we have 0 physical damage spells, we arent left with many options now are we?

[Stylin]

I feel a RDM should be a better buffer then a SCH, and as it stands, it is not. So why waste time, effort, and consideration on a class that will not DD unless it starts to get DD JA's and actual DD gear that makes it competitive with other DD classes. When they should be establishing the class as the buffer and debuffer class that it is.

WHM, BRD, COR, SCH <Please check it.>

If you honestly believe Red Mage is supposed to be a buffer simply because of Haste, Refresh, and Regen you are fooling yourself. Stop riding that badly translated manifesto's dick.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Like what exactly. Are you seriously with a straight face trying to tell me that RDM's mage components are hurting more then the melee side? RDM is equal parts BLM,WHM,WAR, not WHM ... then BLM ... then maybe WAR. SE already created a job that masters WHM and BLM magic, it's called SCH. BLU is not RDM, no where close, heck if anything BLU's should be wanting a RDM around them always as Dia III is one of the few ways to jack up the damage on BLU physical spells.

Or were you one of the "SE give us Cure V so we can be WHM's again" crowd?

The fact that you haven't been added to my ignore list means I don't consider you a troll. But I will have to ask, have you ever done a serious RDM melee build?

You guys keep talking about "reason to be there" and "invite rate", which is completely and utter bull sh!t. Are you seriously attempting VWNM's in a pick up group? RDM already has plenty of functions and reasons to "be there", Refresh II with AF2 pants along will guaranteed you a spot with the WHMs, although I hate using that as a reason, still it's one. Then of course the Stun / Slow III / Dia III combo is extremely useful, locking out a single TP move consistently makes many T3/T4 VWNM's easier. Then you have T4 nukes for ranged magic damage, and various crowd control options if SE ever creates another Dynamis / Limbus style event. And on top all that you have enough self buffs to make yourself nigh invincible. This is all before considering the melee side, which isn't weak in the slightest.

In fact let me clear some BS up about that, cause I'm tired of a bunch of noobs making claims they know nothing about. RDM's melee side is not weak, don't ever think that. It needs work due to years of SE ignoring it. RDM lacks the ~GEAR~ and that's it, and seeing from the test server .dat's SE is now correcting that by putting RDM back on the haste / TP gear sets. RDM can get 25% haste and capped acc, we suffer in the attack field, but so does BLU. RDM actually only has slightly lower attack then BLU, we're talking 20 or so attack. And if the RDM is /DRK then they have more attack then BLU, but that's a special sub for specific situations. I use Bison Steak on both, Accuracy hasn't been an issue since 75, and anything that RDM will have an acc issue on BLU will to and thus Pizza +1 will be employed. The biggest dependency was that BLU's get Vorpal Blade natively while RDM is forced to use Evisceration. RDM's are on all the nice swords but aren't on any of the nice daggers. RDM's do get Aeolian Edge and can deal good damage with it so they can participate in the mass farming / amber light farming abyssea groups. And seeing that SE is looking at weapon skill distribution, we might be getting sword EX WS's soon which nullifys this entire argument instantly.

So please tell me, what is your experience with all this, or are you just speaking out of "what everyone knows" type ignorance? Cause the more you talk the close your argument sounds to "RDM melee is deh suckz, don't bother, now get to the back and buff me, and bring me my sammich".

I've been meleeing on Rdm since I entered the game 2006, I stopped meleeing when I hit level 40 and started meleeing again when I hit 70+, I kept my skills up to date in skillup parties/solo etc. I'm not saying our mage components are worse than our melee ones, but on Stronger Nms our best skill, Enfeebling, is constantly being either heavily resisted, outright immune, or even worse recently, more NMs have attacks considered TP moves, so our common enfeebles don't even affect them (this is of course on resistant NMs, if our resist rate isn't floored it typically lands fairly easily with a decent set). Even though they promised to look at our enfeebling on resistant NMs the wording greatly disturbs me and I don't exactly feel that they're serious about dealing with the issue. Temper is nice but I feel more information on their planned enfeeblement adjustments and when they plan on implementing them is higher priority, that's all. I also feel the saboteur nerf was completely unnecessary and should either be reversed or alleviated.

Oh no, I actually agree with you on that, and it actually irritates myself a little as well, as of 90 cap assuming both were geared to the max a meleeing Rdm is 5% behind BLU looking at only melee/ws damage; it's CA/Efflux/Self-SC with their spells and better skill level/weaponskill gear keeping BLU ahead. Even then BLU can still melee and maintain decent proficiency in healing/nuking/stunning/crowd control while meleeing (while headbutt is resisted more often on higher NMs, Sudden Lunge isn't as bad although it has a longer recast), Rdm has to drop spell casting load to aid the group to a minimal to deal less damage than mostly everyone else while meleeing. I could care less about Cure V personally but I won't ignore the fact it helps healing more than Cure 4 spam ever will. It's a boring solution but the most obvious one, if SE finds an acceptable alternative as they said they were looking into I'd be happy with that.

Pre Abyssea I kept my Rdm's melee gear at the very minimum at a decent level short of HQ dusk and V belt/AV items, had bad luck on Ose but finally got the drop way too late (was using ACP body with attack/acc augments as a pseudo AJ, later changed to attack/crit after abyssea was released, later changed again this year to acc/dual wield). Still missing Z tiara and a 6% haste belt/minor upgrades in other slots to finish my current TP build, I was hoping my group would work on more Empyreans after finishing +2 sets (been running into low attendance lately with college starting back and issues over payment transfer), if not I'll duo the rest of level 85 with my friend/dbox his account.

[FrankReynolds]

Sorry to derail this Giant friggin Derail, but since this topic is actually about Temper..... Most Red Mage don't really care if their melee gets Buffed.

Claiming that this spell is a move in the right direction and that Red Mage doesn't need more spells that offer better group use just because you are one of the ~%5 Red Mage who are in a LS that puts up with their melee shinanigans is just selfish.

This Spell offers very little to most red mage. The time could have been spent on making a spell that did offer something to most red mage. This is a problem.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Sorry to derail this Giant friggin Derail, but since this topic is actually about Temper..... Most Red Mage don't really care if their melee gets Buffed.

Claiming that this spell is a move in the right direction and that Red Mage doesn't need more spells that offer better group use just because you are one of the ~%5 Red Mage who are in a LS that puts up with their melee shinanigans is just selfish.

This Spell offers very little to most red mage. The time could have been spent on making a spell that did offer something to most red mage. This is a problem.

Again, it would have taken very little time to create this spell, also without proof you saying only ~5% of RDM's want to melee means nothing..

I hate when people make out they speak for the majority of people with no proof to back it up.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Not to mention these forums also take into consideration german, french, and japanese player feedback too, so even if the english users are only 5% of the rdm what actually like to melee, wouldnt that mean there is still enough feedback, support, and desire to melee with the other languages? or are they just pandering to the english forums uncharacteristically? Does seem like a rather HUGE oversight to forget the other languages whom are posting on these boards.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If any forum is getting pandered to, it's the japanese one.

[Scuro]

WHM, BRD, COR, SCH <Please check it.>

If you honestly believe Red Mage is supposed to be a buffer simply because of Haste, Refresh, and Regen you are fooling yourself. Stop riding that badly translated manifesto's dick.

yes obviously RDM is not a good buffer, and that is why things like Temper should have been focused on a party rather then just a self cast that cannot be accesioned.... I'm not saying the buffs you have now make you a great buffer class, obviously not, but what they could introduce would be fantastic, magic attack boost spell, quick magic spell, etc. I mean the list can be endless, and yes I am one of those that is sticking to the manifesto, and feel that RDMs should receive great buffs and debuffs. SE needs to stop wasting its time with DD, (and hell with some of the buffs, like temper, which should of been at least accesionable, it can still boost RDM DD enough to keep the DD RDM quiet) and focus on what it had established as a focus for the class, buffing, and debuffing for the better good of a party.

[Hyrist]

Daniel hit the nail on the head.

Anyone is going to say the numbers are behind them in this argument, so let's just stick with naked desires for the job.

For Buffing: I've already made it clear that I'd prefer RDM be a single target heavy buffer, again it just makes sense that way with all the single target and self target buffs we have. We are late in the game here, with only 5 levels to go after this update. It would take more than just another haste or refresh to put RDM truely in the buffer role. We're talking on the level of a class re-write and just as I said before, I'm really not in support of retconing what we got.

For Debuffing: If we're going to be reliant on stun for addressing TP moves, I'd love to see it on RDM natively, or give us something stronger to address TP moves. I think it's a crutch being limited to a single subjob for support in any one event and because of the potency of Stun being there and ready, it feels like a gimick to keep us in groups. Then again, I feel the same way about people's dependency on refresh. I want our debuff game to be more of an impact. I want it to be the reason we're invited, not something supplementary. To do that we need a stronger presence against TP moves.

Melee:

This is where the playerbase devides. Most people I play with don't care. They know I don't melee on things like Voidwatch mobs or HNMs. Lower tier NMs so long as we're not hurting for cures I can handle fairly well, even with aged gear.

High End NM content is not the sole point of endgame, and there is a strong request for a not so NM tier centeraled endgame. You'll probably see it a lot in Walk of Echoes. I maintain what I said about seeing RDM's martial side being given a stronger utility in groups. SE answered that by saying that they want Enspells or other functions similar on RDM to be about assisting on damage. So long as they back that up adequately with gear and WS updates I'll be fine with it.

I do not mind RDM's melee side to be slightly behind that of BLU,(Note to Scur: I've told you this before BLU's Physical Magic is not Melee, it's magic with an Accuracy modifier.) given what we offer elsewise and the flexibility we can have. It makese sense to me that if BLU sits back and focuses on spells because he's worried bout TP feed, that a RDM should too and also focus more on the magic end. HNM game doesn't change that for me at all.

In the end, what I want to see is more Assault Style content that would make our front line presence more useful, and the gear support WITHIN THAT CONTENT that will help close up the gear gap.

It makes sense to me to get gear that would assist RDM's martial skills in an event in which RDM's martial skills would be utalized. Right now SE's not currently correlating that.

And again, Buffing RDM's melee side is not a waste of time. Developing an endgame that only consists of single hard monster battles with low and random reward yeild is.

Instead of looking to limit down the ability of one job, the focus of development should be to broaden the flexibility and enjoyably of ALL jobs by creating content that isn't so narrowly focused.

Abyssea did a pretty darn good job of this to an extent. Now that it's starting to phase out, they should go ahead an introduce more.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

yes obviously RDM is not a good buffer, and that is why things like Temper should have been focused on a party rather then just a self cast that cannot be accesioned.... I'm not saying the buffs you have now make you a great buffer class, obviously not, but what they could introduce would be fantastic, magic attack boost spell, quick magic spell, etc. I mean the list can be endless, and yes I am one of those that is sticking to the manifesto, and feel that RDMs should receive great buffs and debuffs. SE needs to stop wasting its time with DD, (and hell with some of the buffs, like temper, which should of been at least accesionable, it can still boost RDM DD enough to keep the DD RDM quiet) and focus on what it had established as a focus for the class, buffing, and debuffing for the better good of a party.

Apparently the manifesto was mistranslated, it said RDM was a self-buffer, not party buffer, so Temper fits the manifesto.

[Stylin]

yes obviously RDM is not a good buffer, and that is why things like Temper should have been focused on a party rather then just a self cast that cannot be accesioned.... I'm not saying the buffs you have now make you a great buffer class, obviously not, but what they could introduce would be fantastic, magic attack boost spell, quick magic spell, etc. I mean the list can be endless, and yes I am one of those that is sticking to the manifesto, and feel that RDMs should receive great buffs and debuffs. SE needs to stop wasting its time with DD, (and hell with some of the buffs, like temper, which should of been at least accesionable, it can still boost RDM DD enough to keep the DD RDM quiet) and focus on what it had established as a focus for the class, buffing, and debuffing for the better good of a party.

That's asinine. Of course Red Mage isn't a good buffer, it's not even one to begin with. A Red Mage is designed to cripple foes with enfeebling magic(where the focus should be) and to enhance it's martial skill through their magic(where we've been sorely lacking). Temper is exactly the way it should be. If you want a party wide Double Attack go ask a Corsair or a Summoner for it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

As bad as Rdm is in context to pure DDs calling it trash and that we should melee on Blu instead which is roughly 5% better at TP/WS damage... makes sense to you? You're pretty much calling Blu melee (ignoring spells/self SC) trash then...

[Sekundes]

As bad as Rdm is in context to pure DDs calling it trash and that we should melee on Blu instead which is roughly 5% better at TP/WS damage... makes sense to you? You're pretty much calling Blu melee (ignoring spells/self SC) trash then...
5%? Where did that number come from? I have what I think to be pretty good melee gear and ws gear for blu and rdm and I couldn't see rdm getting that close.

[Shiyo]

5%? Where did that number come from? I have what I think to be pretty good melee gear and ws gear for blu and rdm and I couldn't see rdm getting that close.
They probably don't know that a bluemage can do more than just autoattack and WS.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Kine's sheets adjusted for both jobs, the difference is 5% in TP/WS damage, of course Blu is going to pull ahead in overall damage. I see no problem with this.

[Sekundes]

They probably don't know that a bluemage can do more than just autoattack and WS.
That's exactly what I'm talking about nothing but meleeing and ws. Just not seeing how rdm can keep up particularly on anything with high eva. Rdm's melee gear and ws gear selections are not nearly as good.

[Ophannus]

Looking at the other enhancements they added to JA/Spells from feedback, this should get a SUBSTANTIAL boost. This ability should ONLY have gotten +5% if it was castable on others. But since it's castable only on RDMs, and RDM's have such weak melee potential, it should be set somewhere around 15-20%. Would 15-20% Double Attack be so overpowered on a RDM when unless we have Almace our best WS is Savage Blade without /BLU, /DRK, /WAR? We wouldn't even sub those anyway since we need /NIN when we melee usually anyway for more DoT.


While we're at it, add to Composure the ability to use Exclusive sword Weapon Skills; Red Lotus Blade/Vorpal Blade/Seraph Blade/Sanguine Blade

[Neisan_Quetz]

That's exactly what I'm talking about nothing but meleeing and ws. Just not seeing how rdm can keep up particularly on anything with high eva. Rdm's melee gear and ws gear selections are not nearly as good.

I mentioned that in my posts anyway. Otherwise it's a semantics issue since she said Rdm melee is trash when looking at just melee damage, Rdm isn't -that- (and I use this tentatively here) behind Blu considering just melee damage. CA/Efflux/Self SC and yes BLU is obviously going to pull farther ahead, and to me, that's okay.

[Shiyo]

And bluemage is nowhere near war or SAM(outside) when it comes to real DD on harder mobs. Cure the war and sam, haste the war and sam, and put your sword away.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I never once said I melee in parties that aren't completely lol in the first place, don't put words in my mouth.

[Geabrielle]

Alright, this is getting to be a bit ridiculous. I've had my fun with BLU but I will say it will never have the place RDM does in my affections. Keep hoping that SCH will attain what is a WHMs prerogative and what a BLM will destroy a SCH) on dmg wise while trashing everything a RDM IS NOT. If RDM is so mediocre why cry about it, go back to a job that lets you keep your delusions....

That said, I agree that RDM is not meant to be a main melee job. It is a 'jack of all trades' by the release description, but the community has embraced it as an enhancer/debuffer mainly. It is NOT a buff job; Refresh and Haste does not a buffer make. The role of buffer falls to COR BRD and in some ways SMN. Having the ability to cure, given the skill denoted to RDMS does not a healer make. The true God of Healing is WHM, with SCH backing it up more effectively due to higher tier spell accessibility. RDM is not even a mystical DOTer, that is SCH's forte as they have very powerful helixes and ways to boost them to impressive levels .. and I will laugh at any SCH from the depths of my BLM soul who think they can touch what a BLM does as the masters of elemental might.

Back to the OP: I was a career RDM once, in respect to that I continue to bring my beloved first job up to the higher levels in hopes of what will be good things. I actually enjoy what Temper brings to the table for those who like employing their sword skills for why else would RDM have them?? That being said, I am pleased to read that there will be an adjustment to its 5% rate under improved enhancing skill. It is giving attention to the side of RDM that has been neglected for a very long time ( now if only they would stop mincing and give RDM Fencer! Not on gear, but as a bloody TRAIT! ).

That being said, I also support the desire to see an adjustment in the enfeebling department: PLEASE PLEASE! I began RDM because I enjoyed placing mobs in 'stuck on stupid' mode so my fellow adventurers could rip it to steaming pieces. Paralyzing to insensibility, Slowing its rampage upon my stalwart tank and generally giving it hell to a group advantage. This is falling by the wayside and it makes me terribly sad. Once again, Temper is a good idea by way of satisfying a part of the community who enjoy the path of the legendary Avesta but let us never forget we have a support aspect to take care of... and it needs fixing before RDMs simply hang up for good.

[Scuro]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11485



Vision
Support specialists who excel at transforming their allies from mere mortals into demigods with their enhancements, while rendering once-formidable enemies impotent with enfeebling magic.

We want to see red mages play a more vital role in HNM battles by making enfeebling magic more effective against high-level notorious monsters and their legendary levels of resistance as well as allowing them to better contribute to party member enhancement.


That's asinine. Of course Red Mage isn't a (is meant to be a) good buffer, it's not even one to begin with. A Red Mage is designed to cripple foes with enfeebling magic(where the focus should be) and to enhance it's martial skill through their magic(where we've been sorely lacking). Temper is exactly the way it should be. If you want (Temper should be) a party wide Double Attack (and should recieve further party effecting spells.)go ask a Corsair or a Summoner for it.

Please cease your misinformed slander...

[Daniel_Hatcher]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11485

It's not misinformed, someone that speaks both Japanese and English has already stated that the translation is wrong.

[Scuro]

Didn't see it corrected on the main log, so I doubt its nothing more then RDM denial.

yet if you can supply me with a dev tracker log link, I will be more then glad to retract my statement.

[Supersun]

It's really not.

I mean even something as horrible as google translate and microsoft translate can both catch the section about a Rdm enhancing himself...in the Japanese, French, and German versions...

Besides, are you really implying that SE is as good as translators as you make them out to be? I mean are we really so quick to forgot Sword Skill +d?

While I certainly commend them on their use of colorful language the opriginal text isn't nearly that creative.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Didn't see it corrected on the main log, so I doubt its nothing more then RDM denial.

yet if you can supply me with a dev tracker log link, I will be more then glad to retract my statement.

It hasn't been corrected, like quite a few badly translated posts and haven't been updated until the Devs look into it.

As a side note, the person that told me about it's poor translation doesn't even have RDM levelled so....

[Kitkat]

@Scuro
I fail to see how rdm is party enhancer when originally they didn't get refresh, they don't have general access to bara spells without proper sub, phalanx was originally only able to be cast on themselves until Tier II merits came along. The only spell original to the job was Regen spells, which later were removed to only first tier access and given exclusively to Whm. Even now, a vast majority of the spells rdm has access to for buffing resistance or enhancing melee damage is self target only. How can you misconstrue that a job is specifically meant to buff a party when by default 90% of their spells can only be cast on themselves?

By your definition, whm is more a buffer than rdm is due to having AOE buffs that are enhanced beyond rdm's higher enhancing skill through gear. From boost spells to bar spells, not to mention the ability to enhance party Subtle blow. Rdm doesn't get anything like that. Then you have Cor and brd who get AOE att+, acc+, DA+, Crit+, regain, refresh, etc. With this on the table looking at both base spell list and extended spell list via sub, rdm cannot and will not ever be the "king of part buff" but they are the king of buffing themselves.

This sounds like a self denial/envy that they can't have rdm spamming another rotation spell so they can attack more often cause it shouldn't be just for "lolmeleerdm." I see you seem to be a blu main, have you fully merited diffusion to self buff the party as often as possible just because you are capable of it? Blu gets a slew of nice spell effects that would benefit a party too, does that make them enhancers too or a jack of all trades job that is only capable of doing so? By your reasoning, should blu also fall into the same category of being a supreme buffer because they have the ability to buff the party through a few select spells/abilities much like the rdm? Think on this first before you reply, you'll find that the only one really misinformed is yourself, Scuro.

[Neisan_Quetz]

There isn't a single spell Blu can currently cast you could keep up fulltime with Diffusion.

[Stylin]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11485

Please cease your misinformed slander...

I'm misinformed? What a riot. You can't even debunk the arguments I've presented. I suppose only the North American and UK Red Mages are supposed to be buffers, is that it? Do you even have Red Mage leveled? A Red Mage's buffs are for themselves, one would think you would have figured that out when Composure only worked for self-cast buffs. Our full AF3 + cape doesn't even give the full duration boost, it's barely 2/3rds the duration we give ourselves. As I've already said, Regen, Refresh, and Haste doesn't magically make us some kind of buffer.

SCH has a higher tier Regen, Storms, Regain, and Accession to make their self-buffs AoE.(inb4 snipes about Regain not being worthwhile)

SMN has various abilities through Blood Pact: Ward and Avatar's Favor that are party wide.

A White Mage has a lot of the same spells as a Red Mage in AoE form.

I'm merely repeating things you should already know. Please, enlighten me on how you can sit there and think Red Mage is a buffer job when everything else brings more to the table. Putting blind faith in an inaccurate manifesto is ignorance at best.

[FrankReynolds]

It's really not.

I mean even something as horrible as google translate and microsoft translate can both catch the section about a Rdm enhancing himself...in the Japanese, French, and German versions...

Besides, are you really implying that SE is as good as translators as you make them out to be? I mean are we really so quick to forgot Sword Skill +d?

While I certainly commend them on their use of colorful language the opriginal text isn't nearly that creative.

funny, when i use Google translate, the french version says teammates, and the german version says comrades.

[Ophannus]

What pisses me off is they're giving WHM Addle but won't give Afflatus to /WHM because they want it to remain WHM exclusive for balance reasons. Yet at the end of the day WHM can sub RDM and gain access to all of our unique spells beside enspell2 and Refresh2(meaningless with AF3 body and refresh1) and even a FULL STRENGTH Convert.
If theyre gonna whore out our specialties at least nerf Convert for /RDM's.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

funny, when i use Google translate, the french version says teammates, and the german version says comrades.

I would assume the French and German ones would just be translated from the English ones, the error is supposedly in the translation from Japanese to English.



What pisses me off is they're giving WHM Addle but won't give Afflatus to /WHM because they want it to remain WHM exclusive for balance reasons. Yet at the end of the day WHM can sub RDM and gain access to all of our unique spells beside enspell2 and Refresh2(meaningless with AF3 body and refresh1) and even a FULL STRENGTH Convert.
If theyre gonna whore out our specialties at least nerf Convert for /RDM's.

Need to remember, SE are still under the delusion that RDM is still a powerful job, so granting anything that makes a RDM to other jobs isn't a gimp to them, but granting RDM much of anything would over-power them.

[FrankReynolds]

why would they translate to English first and then to German and french from English? that doesn't even make sense? And who said they did? that SE?

[Crimson_Slasher]

Just google translated the page. and heres what i got.

Red Mage


•コンセプト <br /> 自己強化と単体強化に優れ、弱体魔法を誰よりも上手く使いこなすジョブ Self-reinforcing and strengthening the concept is excellent in itself <br />, Taming the job better than anyone Enfeebling magic

効果は薄くなるものの、ハイレベルノートリアスモンスターのように高い耐性を持つ対象にも弱体魔法が入るようにしたり、強化でもパーティに貢献できるようなアビリティなどの追加／調整をしていきます。 Although thinning effect, or to contain a weak spell that has high resistance to being as high notorious monster, we will adjust / add such an ability to contribute in strengthening the party.


•ジョブ調整例 Job adjustment example

•次に詠唱する魔法／忍術／呪歌の詠唱時間と再詠唱時間が0になるアビリティの追加 The ability to add and re-casting time to 0 cast time of Bardic Music / Ninja / magic chant then

•新規弱体魔法の追加 Add a new weak magic

Please note, it says "Self-reinforcing and strengthening" not "friend-reinforcing and strengthening" or any other sort of word that hints or suggests it is a party buffer. However it is possible they wanted to write descriptions to each job based on what that region saw the job as. However it still doesnt change what the translate says, though i cant truely know for certain what it actually means, but i will find out by asking a japanese player i know that speaks english in game. When i can find him that is.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

why would they translate to English first and then to German and french from English? that doesn't even make sense? And who said they did? that SE?

I didn't say they did, I'm just stating that it's "supposedly" been mistranslated from the Japanese to English, I just assume if the German and French says the same as the English then if it has been mistranslated they probably just translated the English to German/French.

Interesting fact a lot of German/French people speak English not many English/French/German people speak Japanese.

[Swords]

It's probably due to English being the international business language. In essence it's probably much easier to translate Japanese to English then to German/French, rather than Japanese straight to German/French. It might seem to be alot more work, but there are many more books and sources for translating to and from English than any other language to non-English languages.

[FrankReynolds]

I didn't say they did....... I just assume if the German and French says the same as the English then if it has been mistranslated they probably just translated the English to German/French.

Interesting fact a lot of German/French people speak English not many English/French/German people speak Japanese.

Any chance that it was actually translated correctly in all three, and someone just told you it wasn't? Because I'm pretty sure that Google is accidentally translating : "transforming their allies..... with their enhancements...." into "strengthening itself and self-aggrandizement".

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Any chance that it was actually translated correctly in all three, and someone just told you it wasn't? Because I'm pretty sure that Google is accidentally translating : "transforming their allies..... with their enhancements...." into "strengthening itself and self-aggrandizement".

Completely possible, until SE verify it or others do it's up-to people to take it as they like. I'd say Temper tends to go with the self-enhancement, but who knows maybe SE has plans for RDM and buffs for 99 as it stands though It's safe to say outside of Haste and Refresh II nothing about RDM as it stands is demi-god enhancement capable.

[saevel]

It's probably due to English being the international business language. In essence it's probably much easier to translate Japanese to English then to German/French, rather than Japanese straight to German/French. It might seem to be alot more work, but there are many more books and sources for translating to and from English than any other language to non-English languages.

I've had a friend translate the Japanese, it makes no reference of "other" only "self". The phrasing is also different from English version translation.

And yes the German / French are just translated from the English, it's just easier to find JP/EN translators then is it to find JP/GR / JP/FR translators.

-=Edit=-

And on this topic, in order to make RDM "masters of party buffing" they would have to completely retool the job from scratch. Everything from barspells to pro/shell to Gain. Enspells, Phalanx, Stoneskin, spikes, just about every facet of RDM has would need to be altered. Haste and Refresh do not a "Master of Party Buffs" make.

Its just another excuse by the anti-melee crowd to force us to stay in the back, casting Refresh / Haste / Cure on them.


Completely possible, until SE verify it or others do it's up-to people to take it as they like. I'd say Temper tends to go with the self-enhancement, but who knows maybe SE has plans for RDM and buffs for 99 as it stands though It's safe to say outside of Haste and Refresh II nothing about RDM as it stands is demi-god enhancement capable.

For the English translation to be correct the original JP post would have to be wrong. I'll let you guys think about which is more likely to happen.

[Supersun]

French and German mentions that the Red Mage specialized in enhancing itself and others (Using crappy online translators)

From French: The red magus is the job which excels in art to multiply by ten its capacities or those of his team-members and to weaken his enemies.

From German: No job is able it better than that of the red magician to strengthen themselves and others by means of stabilization magic and to brake enemies with effective weakening magic.

English as we know left that bit about enhancing themselves out of it.

Japanese? I'm getting translations all over the place, and I likely know why.

Japanese is a very context heavy language. You can say one thing that could have multiple meaning, but you determine what they are talking about specifically by using the context of the situation.

I'm no Japanese expert, but the sentence likely contained a word for enhancing magic, enfeebling magic, self, and others. The problem is that generally in Japanese they don't connect the words for you. When you mention Enfeebling magic, self, and others it could mean enfeebling magic helps themselves only, their allies only, or it helps them both. Now given the context of the game it'd be pretty stupid to draw any other conclusion other then that enfeebling magic if referencing both yourself and others.

The same deal goes with enhancing magic except the context isn't nearly as easy to determine. The meaning could just as easily be itself, or itself and others because the context of the game does support both.

I do think that enhancing magic in relation to self support makes more sense though given our previous spell library. Really, the only way you could turn the job to make sense to specialize in enhancing others is either if you retooled the spell library, added a way to mirror Rdm's buffs to another party member, or give us Haste II.

2 of those would cause an outrage and 3 of those I don't see realistically happening.

The mention of other people is probably more in relation to how we help them by enfeebling the monster. The enhancing bit is likely in referencing ourselves though it could mean others as well but I don't think the context supports it as well.

Really, it's not that the English Translation is "wrong." It's technically correct. I just don't think that it's right given the context.

At least it's not Konamise...

[FrankReynolds]

So when they mentioned casting a song or ninjitsu or magic, they were referencing a bardninjaredmage and not someone in the party? Wooo! RDM/BRD here I come.

[saevel]

So when they mentioned casting a song or ninjitsu or magic, they were referencing a bardninjaredmage and not someone in the party? Wooo! RDM/BRD here I come.

Umm what? I had doubts previously but now I'm positive your just trolling people.


Support specialists who excel at transforming their allies from mere mortals into demigods with their enhancements, while rendering once-formidable enemies impotent with enfeebling magic.

We want to see red mages play a more vital role in HNM battles by making enfeebling magic more effective against high-level notorious monsters and their legendary levels of resistance as well as allowing them to better contribute to party member enhancement.

Nothing in there about Bard or Ninja Magic, but hey this is a faulty translation so maybe they've got it hidden in there somehow.


Example Adjustments

Adding abilities that reduce to zero the casting time or recast time for the next spell/ninjutsu/song.
New enfeebling magic spells.

Ohh there it is ... but wait .... didn't they make an announcement for things their adding

Red Mage

Spontaneity (Lv. 95)
Reduces casting time for the next magic spell the target casts.

Ohh there it is, and wow it effects ALL magic, including Bard songs and Ninjitsu.

And for the spells their adding,

Gain-STR (RDM Lv. 93)
Enhances Strength.

Temper (RDM Lv. 95)
Grants the ability to occasionally attack twice.


Not a single other target-able spell there. Not only that, but SE went out of their way to ensure Temper wouldn't work with /SCH accession.

Soo Umm ... unless your idea of a "super party buffer" is a 10 min JA ... then yeah ... your either smoking something, and really need to share it, or your just trolling people, in which case get back under your bridge.

[Supersun]

So when they mentioned casting a song or ninjitsu or magic, they were referencing a bardninjaredmage and not someone in the party? Wooo! RDM/BRD here I come.

You've never subbed Brd for the extra 1 MP/tick at 75?

But yeah, if they hadn't included that little bit they would of had to in their very next post when people started asking if it only applies to White and Black magic like composure...

[FrankReynolds]

Nothing in there about Bard or Ninja Magic, but hey this is a faulty translation so maybe they've got it hidden in there somehow.




Ohh there it is ... but wait .... didn't they make an announcement for things their adding

Duh



Ohh there it is, and wow it effects ALL magic, including Bard songs and Ninjitsu.

Duh



Not a single other target-able spell there. Not only that, but SE went out of their way to ensure Temper wouldn't work with /SCH accession.

Soo Umm ... unless your idea of a "super party buffer" is a 10 min JA ... then yeah ... your either smoking something, and really need to share it, or your just trolling people, in which case get back under your bridge.

So you don't think that being able to give that BLM an instant cast on his biggest longest casting spell for an easy magic burst is a party buffing ability? But you do think %5 double attack makes red mage a front line job. And I'm a troll......

[Supersun]

Yes, because a JA on a 10 minute timer that lets a Blm do something that he could already do before, only marginally easier, is good party support.

[FrankReynolds]

Yes, if making red mage capable of doing something that it allready almost never does in a party marginally better is important, then setting up an insta cast magic burst meteor is huge.

[Supersun]

1) You assume people are actually going to coordinate a Skillchain to magic burst meteor

2) You assume that if people are actually setting up a Skillchain to magic burst meteor that a Blm is incapable of doing it by himself.

[SpankWustler]

3. You both assume Meteor will be worth casting.

You have to remember that it's always possible, when dealing with this sort of thing, that we ALL lose.

[Supersun]

3. You both assume Meteor will be worth casting.

You have to remember that it's always possible, when dealing with this sort of thing, that we ALL lose.

Who are we kidding, Meteor will likely just be the AoE version of comet that will just be absurdly expensive.

...if only we got Manawell since that JA actually has some party support potential.

[Scuro]

Any chance that it was actually translated correctly in all three, and someone just told you it wasn't? Because I'm pretty sure that Google is accidentally translating : "transforming their allies..... with their enhancements...." into "strengthening itself and self-aggrandizement".

Thank you! This is exactly right, until SE DEVS are like "Hey we totally f*cked up on the translation" this is nothing more then just some BS that a DD RDM or a DD RDM Sympathizer crafted to further enhance the denial of what the job TRULY is. And the fact that this has been out for a month and not been corrected, obviously points to the fact that this is a buffer/debuffer as they stated. The reason why Temper came into existence is because so many DD RDMs were on the verge of quitting the game when they found out how the job was SUPPOSED to be played, and they decided to appease the side holding back the RDM class, rather then actually boost the class at what it is good at.



I'm misinformed? What a riot. You can't even debunk the arguments I've presented. I suppose only the North American and UK Red Mages are supposed to be buffers, is that it? Do you even have Red Mage leveled? A Red Mage's buffs are for themselves, one would think you would have figured that out when Composure only worked for self-cast buffs. Our full AF3 + cape doesn't even give the full duration boost, it's barely 2/3rds the duration we give ourselves. As I've already said, Regen, Refresh, and Haste doesn't magically make us some kind of buffer.

SCH has a higher tier Regen, Storms, Regain, and Accession to make their self-buffs AoE.(inb4 snipes about Regain not being worthwhile)

SMN has various abilities through Blood Pact: Ward and Avatar's Favor that are party wide.

A White Mage has a lot of the same spells as a Red Mage in AoE form.

I'm merely repeating things you should already know. Please, enlighten me on how you can sit there and think Red Mage is a buffer job when everything else brings more to the table. Putting blind faith in an inaccurate manifesto is ignorance at best.

Idk how many times I must say it, but allow me to be completely be frank and blunt since your thick skull thinking such a mage class was meant to DD and not do what SE has clearly established its purpose in doing, I suppose I must be completely up front. NO F*CING DUH it is not a buffer right now! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT IS NOT A BUFFER CLASS AS OF NOW! AND THAT SCH IS A FAR SUPERIOR BUFFER! I'm going to put that all in bold because you are obviously falling into brief comas on what I'm saying. I clearly said that a SCH is a better buffer, and I said exactly WHY it is. Yet you keep FAILING to listen to what I'm saying so I'm going to bold and capitlize the KEY POINTS that you KEEP MISSING! (Even put in an exclamation in hopes that you realize you are reiterating the same shit I'm telling you in previous posts). AS it stands, YES the job is NOT A BUFFER, yet it is established in the JOB MANIFESTO that it is a MEANT to be a buffer/debuffer (while DD RDMs and sympathizers may deny this FACT, SE and its DEVs have NOT CORRECTED this apparently "miss-translation" in an official dev post as they have done with the spell name changes for SCH, the defining of bully, and various other further elaborations on new JA specifics. Yet apparently because they hate RDMs so much, they decided to leave this one up in the air.... lol I couldn't even keep a straight face saying that.) I honestly don't know how much more further I have to go to DEBUNK your PREVIOUS STATEMENT other then to RUDELY S-P-E-L-L_I-T_O-U-T for you....

[Scuro]

To Prove that you are reiterating the same shit I'm saying, and that SCH, as it stands, is a better buffer then RDM, allow me to quote myself:


This spell is just dissapointing, the focus now for RDM is to be a buffer/debuffer class, and then they give it a spell like this.... One in which it only affects the individual, and can not be accessioned nor given out to any other party member. If you want to play a true hybrid class, play BLU, even the deciription decribes it as a hybrid job. SE needs to stop trying to appease people in this class and make it what its supposed to be, or else it still will be garbage and rarely ever used. I'm sorry, but I'll pick a BLU over a RDM in DD any day of the week, and I would take a SCH over a RDM in terms of buffing any day as well.

They need to fix this where I want a RDM to buff and debuff, not just roll my eyes and laugh. As it stands, the only RDMs that will use Temper, are ones that solo. No party nor anything will want a RDM to DD, even if they have this increase of double attack, I mean hell did a Joytoy get people into the frontline in parties? Hell no, do you think a spell that increases it will do it now?.... Not even the same sport of likely. I agree with Shiyo, the focus needs to be buffs and debuffs, or else the class will not be taken seriously, and will be mediocre. The debuffs available are nice, but not really amazing especially on Abyssea NMs that have just nasty resists on certain debuffs. And SCH just has better buffs (if fully merrited) then a RDM, no contest, and thats how it shouldn't be.

I can promise you right now, the only RDM that is going to use this spell, is a solo RDM playing with content that is not voidwatch nor abyssea. I'm pretty sure any RDM that uses this spell and runs up to the front thinking this gives them any right in a frontline position, will see a kick from party and a swift breaking of his/her shell. This spell had potential to be a desirable buff and give way to the ability of RDMs able to buff the hell out of players and make them monsters, yet now. That it only affects them, worthless.

/slowclap

waita go SE


Benthic Typhoon, please check it, a spell in which just about every Physical BLU has equipped does 10% Physical and Magical damage down, while your Dia III does 15%. Thats great and all, but Why would I NEED a RDM? sure that 5% sounds nice, but why sacrifice things that would further benefit the group, just so I have have an additional 10% physical down and not 10% Magical down to benefit my nukers? And you are right with the middle section of this, you are wanted for those said buffs and debuffs. What your not wanted there for is DD. Every RDM's argument is that they have better acc and can parse better then a BLU in terms of sword DPS..... Thats great.... Too bad that really isn't what a BLU purely does in terms of damage (unless your rockin an almace). I had a RDM brag to me that he was hitting more accurately then I was by 15%, to which I simply replied "ya but the difference is it takes me 2 minutes to kill a mob and it takes you DD'n for 7 to kill one."

There is a reason why BLU was introduced to this game, it was to provide DD RDMs the ability to play a true DD hybrid mage class that was meant to be frontlined. You are right that SCH is a better mage hybrid as it stands then a RDM, however, I feel a RDM should be a better buffer then a SCH, and as it stands, it is not. So why waste time, effort, and consideration on a class that will not DD unless it starts to get DD JA's and actual DD gear that makes it competitive with other DD classes. When they should be establishing the class as the buffer and debuffer class that it is. To exceed at benefitting the party by killing mobs faster, rather then dragging out fights because you think your sword is going to make a big difference in the grand scheme of a party. Whenever a DD RDM tells me that he DD's to "benefit the party" I roll my eyes, because it is pure selfishness as to why they do it. A BLU however benefits a party, hell I open just about every fight with a Benthic Typhoon so I can help the mages and the DD's at the same time.

As it stands, the only reason a RDM is needed for anything, is because VoidWatch requires just about every job in the game, outside of that, the class is practically lack luster. Its not desired, and woopdie doo, Refresh II, why take a class that really is only desired for 1 buff, when practically most mages these days /RDM if they really need the MP? The job needs more buffs for me to say "we need a RDM!" and thats the thing RDMs should be going for, buffs that make it desirable and make SCHs take a back seat. Not trying to compete with BLU or get more mediocre DD skills (Temper lol, so basically ever DD RDM's Joyeuse just got a +1, and I mean a joy toy was seriously why everybody invited RDM to be a DD RDM right!?.... Wrong, even with double attack the job still wasn't desired, so why would it be now? The problem isn't how many times you can hit, or how accurate you hit, the problem is that jobs hit faster, and more then a RDM, harder then a RDM, and actually have traits to enhance them as a DD class. So why compete in a fight your already loosing, when you could compete in a fight that you were meant to win?)



yes obviously RDM is not a good buffer, and that is why things like Temper should have been focused on a party rather then just a self cast that cannot be accesioned.... I'm not saying the buffs you have now make you a great buffer class, obviously not, but what they could introduce would be fantastic, magic attack boost spell, quick magic spell, etc. I mean the list can be endless, and yes I am one of those that is sticking to the manifesto, and feel that RDMs should receive great buffs and debuffs. SE needs to stop wasting its time with DD, (and hell with some of the buffs, like temper, which should of been at least accesionable, it can still boost RDM DD enough to keep the DD RDM quiet) and focus on what it had established as a focus for the class, buffing, and debuffing for the better good of a party.

/applaud
Since I've posted on this thread, I've just about said what you said, in terms of debating why RDM as it stands is NOT a Buffer class, yet how we differ is that I follow what the manifesto SAYS and think of how this class can be a BETTER BUFFER. I'm glad you're on my level of understanding of the competition of other classes, I just wish you would realize you are saying the same things I HAVE BEEN SAYING!

Btw my RDM is 47, and could I play such a job? Yes, but do I want to take it further.... No, because I bare resentment to RDM because of the DD RDMs trying to step on BLU's toes

[Daniel_Hatcher]

not to be rude, but you do seem to lack the knowledge of what a RDM is, it's not a traditional Mage just like BLU is not. BLM, WHM and SCH are the mages that wield staves and stay back.

Just because the player-base has made RDM a job that wields Staves and stays out of combat does NOT mean that's what a RDM is, Though I see it'd be easier banging my head against a brick wall in your case. How about instead of keep coming in these threads telling the posters how they're doing it wrong, you create a separate thread on the RDM forum for people that are your type of RDM and don't bother opening a thread for people that want to use the job as actually advertised.

You and other posters have already taken this topic completely off what it was in the beginning.

[Kitkat]

So in otherwords you're contradicting yourself and the whole main point of your rant as it stands is that rdm shouldn't melee or have the choice to melee period. Right.

I'm rather disappointed that you think a rdm can even "step on a blu's toes." The comparative damage difference between a well geared blu and an equally well geared rdm still has a gap. You coming in here and fretting over a rdm gaining a spell that in essence gives him a POS Joyuese effect is laughable. Aside from tiara my rdm has nearly and identical melee tp setup, but has an overall lower delay difference due to having almace+mandau. In or out of abyssea this doesn't close the gap cause my blu still hits harder strike for strike and has a much better gear choice and support spells for CdC. Then on top of that blu can do self darkness, so as far as I'm concerned you have nothing to really say a rdm steps on blu's toes. Any blu played properly with the gear to back it up will leave a rdm in the dust in over all DD plain and simple.

The only thing I see you spouting in this thread is that Rdm has absolutely no right to melee and even as a blu primary myself I think your view is skewed. Maybe it is because your rdm is only 47, you don't understand when a rdm would want to melee, or more accurately knows when they can or can't melee. You're whole problem is that rdm want to have the choice to in the appropriate situation. Much like CdC rewrites the way a blu is played it rewrites the lolmeleerdm mentality since they too can do upwards for 5.5k with CdC. Have I ever peaked as high as my blu with cdc on rdm? No, but I can tell you this..it doesn't take me no 7min to kill something; more accurately it takes about as long as it does on blue if I only melee. The overall delay difference between my rdm and my blu due to sub weapon delay is only .3 difference, which once I get the last haste piece I'm missing becomes 3.8 delay compared to a 4.3 delay on blu. So that debunks your "hits faster" statement. About the only part that is true is the accuracy and slightly harder hits, but depending on mob that becomes null once you reach the pdif cap and fstr caps which in most cases you will in abyssea. This also is anulled because a rdm is using the same damage rating weapon meaning the only real defining differences come into play during NM fights (and even then only on the high-end tiers in abyssea) and higher peak dmg blu is capable of reaching...which also becomes anulled due to lower combined delay resulting in the rdm doing more WS over time.

So melee to melee, the gap is still there, but it isn't as large as you think it is. The blu however has more physical dmg options than the rdm does which keeps it far ahead. Thing about blu is, I'd rather not have one using spells on an nm cause they would feed too much tp to the mob. There you have it...go complain about some other job stepping on blu's toes cause rdm isn't even close. In fact your whole rant is more suitable if you replace all the "rdm" with "blu" considering current spells, abilities, and possible job traits they have currently not to mention are getting after the update comes along. Blu took the AOE dmg king title from blm, the sleepga king title from blm, the One-hit-wonder title from sam or any /thf DD (which doesn't exist anymore). Heck, with the gear sets I have for blu I can just about fit any role I need to after a simple adjustment to my spell list, passive traits, and if in abyssea, atma setup. Just about everything you've said can be easily thrown back at blu from not just rdm, but every job in the game cause of the spell additional effects and secondary modifiers+ftp mods. Seriously, stop kidding yourself. You're crusade against Rdm is unfounded and pointless when the primary job you play does exactly the same thing to not just -one- job, but to all of them.

[Economizer]

not to be rude, but you do seem to lack the knowledge of what a RDM is, it's not a traditional Mage just like BLU is not. BLM, WHM and SCH are the mages that wield staves and stay back.


Please don't lump White Mages with Black Mages and Scholars.

[Supersun]

Btw my RDM is 47, and could I play such a job? Yes, but do I want to take it further.... No, because I bare resentment to RDM because of the DD RDMs trying to step on BLU's toes


You need anymore proof that people are posting in this thread with no intention to play the job?

I mean you resent "DD Rdms" because they are trying to step on Blu's toes so your solution is to push Rdm onto Brd, Cor, Smn, Whm, and Sch? Yeah,...real objective decision there.

I've said it before. Enfeebling for bosses, melee for fodder. That's what I think Red mage should become

To be honest, Blue Mage needs its toes smashed. It's just currently a gigantic role hog. Second best healer, tied for best crowd control, best offensive enfeebler, best AoE nuker, hell, best nuker period (though your damage is in physical form), best stunner by far against most things.

If half of you weren't trying to be a War-1 you'd realize how laughable it is for Blue Mage of all things to ridicule any other job of stepping on their toes.

If anything I think it's fear. Because you realize that unless something big happens between 96-99 everyone is going begin to realize that Blus make some of the best sammiches.

Also...

...did you just /applaud yourself?

[Scuro]

not to be rude, but you do seem to lack the knowledge of what a RDM is, it's not a traditional Mage just like BLU is not. BLM, WHM and SCH are the mages that wield staves and stay back.

How about instead of keep coming in these threads telling the posters how they're doing it wrong, you create a separate thread on the RDM forum for people that are your type of RDM and don't bother opening a thread for people that want to use the job as actually advertised.


If you are going to say the way the job is advertised is "The Jack of All Trades" I'm going to punch a baby.... hard... I swear you RDMs love that statement that is about as outdated as NIN being a ranged DD.... YAY! Sure it was the original premiss, but with how the community is, it sure AS HELL Ain't now! And I'm not really derailing this topic, its those that want to fight me about why I think this is a wasted spell, because its for DD RDMs, and not for RDMs that actually want to be USEFUL and buff their party members or at least have Temper be accessional. Not to mention the activation rate is already garbage anyway as I've addressed in my prior red highlighted post. Its you RDMs that want to fight me that are leading to the derails, I'm just simply an object that doesn't compromise.

RDM used to be in the same category as a BLU, as a mediocre DD Mage that was not wanted in parties (please reference 75, and bird parties, when BLU was about laughed out of every party, and I personally had to do pages, campaign, and imps solo just to get merits) yet now we are in an entire class of our own, its almost an insult to group the two together when referring to DD prowess. SCH is more in the same ball park as RDM, but the reason why people do not try to group the two together is because well, SCH obviously kicks the sh*t out of RDM. THe only thing its got up on any job is debuffs.



I'm so dissapointed you think that RDM isn't a DD, because I has like the uber weapons and stuff, and in a rock fight, I bring a rocket launcher. I'm an exclusion to the discussion because I use a weapon that doesn't require any skills or anything from the job other then attack, stats, and gear. My CDC hits so hard that god kills a kitten somewhere, and although my DD RDM is still not better then my BLU in DD, I still think it should be a DD. Because this game cherishes mediocre jobs that play roles within the grand scheme of things, mediocre. I mean BLU has gear that boosts it greater then what any RDM can achieve by 5%, it hits harder, its more accurate now then it was before, outside of almace it has the best DD WS with a sword, and it has front line physical spells that make a mockery of simple TP'n with a sword, but f*ck that noise, that doesn't mean a RDM can't DD! It means it should!

yes I realize your E-peen is big, thank you, yet in a comparison BLU will always win out in DD because it was MEANT TO, AND DESIGNED TO. Which is why our dd capabilities, and our spells designed the job to beat RDM in DD, EVERYTIME. And hoenstly, as far as I'm concerned it has no right, I mean what a job does alone and on its own time, sure, have a ball, and more power to ya. Yet it will be a cold day in hell when I let a RDM DD with me, my resentment to RDM dates far back, and got worse with BLU. When the class was being grouped with DD RDMs, and being told that we were just as useful. Certain qualities of RDM that made the job better at solo'n as a DD Mage then we were because of our survivability.

It pissed me off, and now, I'm like this, I stomp on the idea of DD RDM whenever I can, because I resent it that much. It may not even be reasonable, but I hate DD RDM. Do I think it should not exist? Of course not, do I think it should only exist in solo? YES.



You need anymore proof that people are posting in this thread with no intention to play the job?

I mean you resent "DD Rdms" because they are trying to step on Blu's toes so your solution is to push Rdm onto Brd, Cor, Smn, Whm, and Sch? Yeah,...real objective decision there.

I've said it before. Enfeebling for bosses, melee for fodder. That's what I think Red mage should become

To be honest, Blue Mage needs its toes smashed. It's just currently a gigantic role hog. Second best healer, tied for best crowd control, best offensive enfeebler, best AoE nuker, hell, best nuker period (though your damage is in physical form), best stunner by far against most things.

If half of you weren't trying to be a War-1 you'd realize how laughable it is for Blue Mage of all things to ridicule any other job of stepping on their toes.

If anything I think it's fear. Because you realize that unless something big happens between 96-99 everyone is going begin to realize that Blus make some of the best sammiches.

Also...

...did you just /applaud yourself?

If showing that I know wtf i'm talking about with this job, and that my understanding of DD mages, and of the job and how it operates is a 90, give me a few days and I'll have it enough to take my words more valuable. I've had the job up this high for a long time, and pretty much at 50 the job doesn't change, you still protect, shell, haste, and refresh. Yet now its a different beast in terms of its enfeebles and such, yet still, I hardly think its all that different. Also it wasn't my decision to group them together, check the manifesto, that was SE's decision, idk why, but hell I'm going to back it, I think its a good decision.... NO idea how they will get RDM to be better then the other classes (and oh my christ, whenever I hear someone establish that SMN's feet will be stepped on as a buffer, I about piss my pants... Ya cuz I'm sure some SMN's picked up the job so that they could be party buffers.... LOL, no SMNs play the class to be a DD class and pet tank, the buffs are simply a bonus, its when they were a healer only job that they got pissed, and I'm pretty sure SMN really doesn't care that much, take it from someone that plays it, used to be in a SMN only LS, and whose cousin plays it.

BLU has been smashed for a LONG TIME, take it from someone who played this class since introduction, I absolutely loved this job, and for the firest few months it was "ZOMGS! INVITE THE BLUEZ!" and BLU was loved, yet as time passed people realized that BLU was OK at everything, but not GREAT, and this made us mediocre, and eventually useless. Many of us, including myself had to scrounge for campaign battles, do pages, or solo imps, the only way we got parties was if we:
A. Made them ourselves and lied about what job we were coming as.
B. Had a friend/lsmate that made the party.
C. It was that late in the night, nobody is on, and a party really doesn't want to disband.
That was the life of a BLU, we were mediocre, not desired, and left to ourselves for years. It wasn't until Abyssea that we finally were desired and adored for what we do, and honestly if it weren't for our exclusive yellow procs, we would of probably still been on the fence of mediocrity. Yet the spells we received, traits, just set us ahead as a great hybrid class by leaps and bounds, now when I seek on my BLU, I get party invites in 5 mins. Back when you were about as desired as a DRK or DRG back in the old days before ToAU and when DRG 2hr was summon Wyvren.

At this point, BLU is at a point of no return, its progressed so much over this last year that even if things remain the same at 99, this class will be just fine in the long run. i'll still be a rediculous TP DD, my DD spells will still be fantastic, my stunning will be amazing, especially now with Sudden Lunge, my nukes will still be phenomenal and will only improve. And I about LOL'd when you said that we were the best offensive enfeebler. Most of our enfeebles are kinda meh, but I suppose since we are the only class that DD's and enfeebles, it makes sense, yet as one can see in the BLU forums, we want improved enfeebs. At this point, I'm quite comfortable with where BLU is at, and no matter what they do to RDM, I'll crush it in output with my BLU, no matter what.

And no I did not applaud myself, I applauded the fact that he was able to address what I had JUST SAID. I thought it was pretty self explanatory by what I had said just below the /applaud lol.

[saevel]

So in otherwords you're contradicting yourself and the whole main point of your rant as it stands is that rdm shouldn't melee or have the choice to melee period. Right.

*Cough*

Many pages ago I stated that this is what their here for. It's why I'm quick to call out "troll" and ignore posters, I've seen all these debates years ago and I know exactly how they end. What will start off as a minor debate will escalate until the anti-melee-RDM crowd ends up frustrated and just does away with the decor and diplomacy and tells you want their really thinking. It's ALWAYS without fail "your not a DD, put your sword away, go the back and buff me, and make me a sammich while your at it".

You can't argue with them nor convince them because their already prejudiced into thinking anyone who "melees on RDM must be retarded and should be treated as such".

They don't play RDM, they don't like the idea of standing in the back and casting haste / refresh / cure on everyone, over and over again. They don't like the idea of being treated like someone's b1tch. Yet they'll happily force you into that roll and treat you that way. Most of them eventually gravitate to BLU, where they make absolute crap BLU's due to their inability to understand versatility (ohh lookz at mez I gotz a sword so I should only DD). Some of them even get to the point were they refuse to set healing, refresh, haste or utility spells, with the reasoning being "it lowers my DD potential, the RDM should be doing that for me instead". There were actual arguments about Magic Fruit vs more +STR spells.

So yeah, I'm jaded against this group but only because I've seen it all before and already know every argument their going to make, and every response to those arguments, and every response they'll make to our responses. My advice to the pro-melee-RDM people is to add the trolls to your ignore list and call it a day. The Dev's are on our side, SE wants RDM to have more melee utility. Their adding us to more melee gear, their giving us melee orientated self buffs (Temper / Gain-STR/DEX) and I'm happy for it. Now they need to give us stat-based enfeebled (attack down, defense down, magic defense down, ect..) and a super Regen spell and we'll be set.

[Scuro]

And ya I suppose you are right, this is a bit of a derail, but I mean... what is there really to say about Temper, its a self-cast spell, its a 5% proc, which either gets better with skill and 5% is a minimum, or its 5% is the best. It still doesn't proc enough to be amazing, and with out a Joytoy, its less then having a joy toy, and with a joy toy, its a +1.

/slow clap

It still won't get the class to be a frontline, yet I can understand that it is cool for solo play. Yet the problem isn't RDM's ability to DD solo, the problem is, its not a desirable job.... for anything except maybe void watch.

So for now sine I've pretty much established my point and reasons I'm going to bow out for another like 10 posts and see if anything has changed and maybe come back if I feel the desire, or just give up on the RDM community lol.

@post before this one:
The reason why the argument hasn't changed is because DD RDM hasn't changed, but has gotten worse due to its gear remaining at 75 best. I'm not in a prejudice, a prejudice is an illogical resentment, the resentment is perfectly logical, other jobs DD better, RDM is a better back line then a DD hands down, and has the gear to show for it, thus it gets back lined as the whole community has done with the class. No prejudice there, just dealing with fact lol. And so long as BLU exist, DD RDM is a solo role that won't see the light of a party day. And on that note! Ta-ta!

[Daniel_Hatcher]

If you are going to say the way the job is advertised is "The Jack of All Trades" I'm going to punch a baby.... hard... I swear you RDMs love that statement that is about as outdated as NIN being a ranged DD.... YAY! Sure it was the original premiss, but with how the community is, it sure AS HELL Ain't now! And I'm not really derailing this topic, its those that want to fight me about why I think this is a wasted spell, because its for DD RDMs, and not for RDMs that actually want to be USEFUL and buff their party members or at least have Temper be accessional. Not to mention the activation rate is already garbage anyway as I've addressed in my prior red highlighted post. Its you RDMs that want to fight me that are leading to the derails, I'm just simply an object that doesn't compromise.

RDM used to be in the same category as a BLU, as a mediocre DD Mage that was not wanted in parties (please reference 75, and bird parties, when BLU was about laughed out of every party, and I personally had to do pages, campaign, and imps solo just to get merits) yet now we are in an entire class of our own, its almost an insult to group the two together when referring to DD prowess. SCH is more in the same ball park as RDM, but the reason why people do not try to group the two together is because well, SCH obviously kicks the sh*t out of RDM. THe only thing its got up on any job is debuffs.

And RDM being an Enhancer is as outdated as that. RDM is not now, nor has it been an Enhancer. It had few single-target spells, that DOESN'T make it an enhancer it makes it capable of enhancing. Big difference. RDM is and forever will be the ultimate self-enhancer big difference. BLU can do that, will you say that's an enhancer now, or even a curer since it can cure.

BLU is more RDM than SCH whether you want it to be or not, it is. Simple fact! SCH is a mage, that is all it is, whether you like it as long as RDM has a B rank in Sword and Dagger, and SE always picture them wielding a sword/dagger it will always be a melee mage. Is it used as one for the most part? No, of course not.

You go on about debuffs but even where RDM is concerned it's outdated there two. NIN can do the debuffs more or less to the same level as RDM, and in some cases purchased spells for NIN are as potenct as RDM's merits. As it stands RDM has no place, just like BLU used too.

Only difference is, you levelled BLU so you complain about what you want for BLU. I levelled RDM and I'll complain what I want for RDM, as for staying on topic one of your first posts was how this spell should have been given to BLU that doesn't help the subject of the topic so you originally only came in with the only intention to get RDM's backs up, which you are still trying to do now.

Your RDM is only subjob level, so you truly have no right to even state you have any idea on what a RDM is. You know what the player-base have made it which is a mediocre WHM, this will never be what RDM should be not now, not ever.

[FrankReynolds]

You guys can pop that BS all day, but the fact is that when you are on the front line poking and taking damage, you are not curing, hasting, slowing, paralyzing, blinding, diaing, addling, poisoning, refreshing etc. like you are supposed to be. Hell if you cast any of that shit you completely lose all dd efficiency and purpose on the front line due to constant casting. and thats not even taking into account that you are casting in swords now. Give it up and request that SE give us something that helps us with our enfeebling and buffs like they said they would. Quit being childish and trying to act like everyone needs to be doing that crap.

[Swords]

Good Lord, not this again... It drives me crazy to think people are so quick to shoot down the original advertised Archtype, but seem to be married to the month old Manifesto. It's not that I don't welcome improvements in any aspect of RDM, Lord knows we've hardly gotten anything since the original redesign, but we know SE is notorious for saying one thing and doing the opposite yet many seem to be sold that description in the Manifesto is absolute.

Besides, for all we know SE is just prepping for the 99 update, and being we cannot do more than speculate on what they tell us. We cannot really say whats in store for RDM, or what SE is planning to do with the game in general.

Note: Not posting at anyone in particular but people have been throwing around the Manifesto alot lately.

[Stylin]

/snip

There is a difference between debunking and merely responding. You're not providing any evidence as to why Red Mage should be more than what it is other than "But I want it to be a buffer! QQ" In fact, all you've shown is that you're fully aware it's not. I hope you realize that you just painted yourself to be a gigantic hypocrite.

"But the manifesto says..!"

Listen, Square had promised in the past that they were going to bring RDM to the front lines. Camate has already stated (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11518-Job-Adjustment%EF%BD%93-Manifesto-RDM?p=165408&viewfull=1#post165408) that they were looking into enhancing a Red Mages martial prowess. Or is that just a case of Square "appeasing the evil DD RDMs"?

The fact of the matter is you were lied to and you fell for it, hook, line and sinker.

[FrankReynolds]

There is a difference between debunking and merely responding. You're not providing any evidence as to why Red Mage should be more than what it is other than "But I want it to be a buffer! QQ" In fact, all you've shown is that you're fully aware it's not. I hope you realize that you just painted yourself to be a gigantic hypocrite.

"But the manifesto says..!"

Listen, Square had promised in the past that they were going to bring RDM to the front lines. Camate has already stated (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11518-Job-Adjustment%EF%BD%93-Manifesto-RDM?p=165408&viewfull=1#post165408) that they were looking into enhancing a Red Mages martial prowess. Or is that just a case of Square "appeasing the evil DD RDMs"?

The fact of the matter is you were lied to and you fell for it, hook, line and sinker.

Funny, in that thread he says: "As was stated in the preface of the job adjustments concept, the core concept of these adjustments is to make each job useful in HNM fights as well as other battle-related content. That said, we mentioned that the job adjustments will focus on party structuring, but that doesn’t mean that we will not be looking into the sword-wielding proficiency of red mages. We are actually planning adjustments to red mage’s proficiencies in the upcoming version update."

Sword play is hardly the focus of this reponse. It is an after thought. thanks for digging that up.
Every other question / response is regarding enfeebling and enhancing.

[Stylin]

/snip

Your reading comprehension is rather lack-luster.


but that doesn’t mean that we will not be looking into the sword-wielding proficiency of red mages.

At what point did you get the impression that sword and magic had to be mutually exclusive?

There's actually one question regarding enhancing magic. Everything else is in regards to martial skill and enfeebling.

edit for clarity: I'll give you that enspells are enhancing magic. However, they are a melee supplement, not enhancing magic in the sense of party support like you seem to be suggesting.

[FrankReynolds]

Your reading comprehension is rather lack-luster.



At what point did you get the impression that sword and magic had to be mutually exclusive?

at the point where he said: "but that doesn’t mean that we will not be looking into the sword-wielding proficiency of red mages" as if it had nothing to do with ---> "the core concept of these adjustments is to make each job useful in HNM fights as well as other battle-related content. That said, we mentioned that the job adjustments will focus on party structuring"

see how he didnt say : "we will be looking into the sword-wielding proficiency of red mages to make each job useful in HNM fights as well as other battle-related content."

[Economizer]

At what point did you get the impression that sword and magic had to be mutually exclusive?


Probably around the same time that people got the impression that healing and meleeing were mutually exclusive job roles that could never be on the same job.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You go on about debuffs but even where RDM is concerned it's outdated there two. NIN can do the debuffs more or less to the same level as RDM, and in some cases purchased spells for NIN are as potenct as RDM's merits.


What, none of Nin's debuffs are better than Rdm's merit spells, only if you're comparing Kurayami: Ni to Blind 1 or Aisha to Bio 2.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

The Accuracy down of Blind caps at 30 as far as I was told.

Kurayami: Ni - Lowers an enemy's accuracy by 30.



You guys can pop that BS all day, but the fact is that when you are on the front line poking and taking damage, you are not curing, hasting, slowing, paralyzing, blinding, diaing, addling, poisoning, refreshing etc. like you are supposed to be. Hell if you cast any of that shit you completely lose all dd efficiency and purpose on the front line due to constant casting. and thats not even taking into account that you are casting in swords now. Give it up and request that SE give us something that helps us with our enfeebling and buffs like they said they would. Quit being childish and trying to act like everyone needs to be doing that crap.

Lovely bullshine!!

Thanks for that, adds so much! You really shouldn't be so helpful and on-topic....

[FrankReynolds]

Thanks for that, adds so much! You really shouldn't be so helpful and on-topic....

That was on topic. this thread is about a much debated spell that gives a mediocre improvement to melee, which my post clearly stated we did not need. you on the other hand are debating the effects of ninjitsu.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

That was on topic. this thread is about a much debated spell that gives a mediocre improvement to melee, which my post clearly stated we did not need. you on the other hand are debating the effects of ninjitsu.

That post had nothing to do with the spell... Why lie?

It was another in the countless anti-melee posts, that was it. Claiming once again that RDM was an enhancer.

[FrankReynolds]

That post had nothing to do with the spell... Why lie?

It was another in the countless anti-melee posts, that was it. Claiming once again that RDM was an enhancer.

Dude, you can melee all day if you want, but this spell still sucks for HNM / Group settings, and doesn't help the job much in the grand scheme of things. Saying that it does because red mage is gonna be on the front lines from now on is a lie. Thats why I said "Give it up and request that SE give us something that helps us with our enfeebling and buffs like they said they would.". You can pretend that melee and melee related spells are unrelated, but they are tied together and relevant. The fact that you want to auto attack things but refuse to do it on a job that is know for that is a testament to your desire to walk the path of most resistance though, so I can see where you would think that its not.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Dude, you can melee all day if you want, but this spell still sucks for HNM / Group settings, and doesn't help the job much in the grand scheme of things. Saying that it does because red mage is gonna be on the front lines from now on is a lie. Thats why I said "Give it up and request that SE give us something that helps us with our enfeebling and buffs like they said they would.". You can pretend that melee and melee related spells are unrelated, but they are tied together and relevant. The fact that you want to auto attack things but refuse to do it on a job that is know for that is a testament to your desire to walk the path of most resistance though, so I can see where you would think that its not.

So everything SE adds from now to eternity should only aid the party or be for the hNM scene.. Come on, be realistic.

They are adding enfeebling spells and fixing enfeebles, they already stated this time and time again. They never said they'd NEVER add anything for other scenes... Don't like Temper? fine! No one likes everything added ask PUP who are the most me-me-me job.

The best thing is to state you don't like it and move on.

[Mageoholic]

Ok I generally don't post here, but there is a lot of misinformation in this thread (this might get lengthy).

1. Gear
Yes it is true that our gear is becoming suspect.

However even still we have a TP set that can surpass the required 26% Haste for cap, the single most important stat for any DD in a TP set.

While said gear does not have very high attack or STR associated with it, RDM has access to Enspells, capable of reaching 30 damage/hit (via gear hollow/fencer,+skill, and base skill + 8/8 merits). Or about 60 with enspell's If SW. These enspells equate to having berserk on full time.

However they do not stack with weaponskills, and weaponskill gearing is where we kind of hurt, we have loads of attack gear, but sacrifice a lot of Stat gear and most importantly ACC. (as our best WS's are multihit, other than Sang and AE) with the exception of Sanguine and AE RDM gearing options are limited for WS's. (Inside Abyssea this doesn't apply really thanks to Cbuffs and Atma's).

2. Lack of weaponskills.

False RDM is privileged with 4 great weaponskills natively

Native
Evisceration- Probably the best non CDC damage weaponskill, and the go to weaponskill for most dagger wielding jobs. Great in abyssea, solid outside of abyssea.

CDC- Obviously great, the best sword WS in the game currently.

Death Blossom- Great Multihit sword WS, with a benefit to casting via the magic evade down bonus, excellent for use as /Mage applying extra damage between casting duties.

AE- A great AoE WS's that is directly boosted by our mage stats, RDM is the best in the game with this WS.

4 very strong and useful WS's all available natively, and all used very effectively, coincidently the listed WS's are also used by the other dagger and sword jobs.

3.

Our AF3+2 is clearly designed for mage use.

Smartass counter claim: Our AF weapon was a Sword, what is your point.

Seriously though, while it is very mage heavy, it directly benefits our melee side via increased durations of enhancing magic on others. This equates to a larger % of time spent on the mob. Coincidently the fast cast tier up also contributed to this factor, all told we spend about 50% less time casting compared to where RDM did previously as a result of these benefits, that is 50% more melee uptime per spell cast. (ie. a buff cyclle of 6 hastes would be in the ball park of a 3% damage increase from increased melee time.)

RDM is neither a great nor a poor DD, it does pretty well in some areas and is weaker in others, anyhow, back to your pissing match of who understands more about RDM.

(these forums are so sad.)

[FrankReynolds]

Its not really about whether or not Red can melee. It's about this spell buffing melee and possibly taking the time / place of a spell that would do far more for the job. When they get red mage enfeebling and buffing up to snuff, they can go crazy with all the melee buffs they want. Until then I am going to be disappointed by the lack of attention where it is needed, and I am going to voice it.

[Mageoholic]

What the hell are you talking about? Taking the place of another spell. You do know Haste and Refresh recast timers are both near 10 seconds, there is more than enough time to tack in extra spells, how the hell do you think RDM mainhealed TP burns without droping buffs....

Enfeebling is up to snuff, the issue isn't the spells it is the limitations that SE has imposed on them. IE. making pretty much everything worthwhile immune to them. The stuff we can land them on we do so to a great effect, unless being able slow a mob down enough you can cast stoneskin between melee attacks isn't slow enough.

RDM was also never a great buffer, we have haste and refresh really awesome buffs, but that is about it. Hell the only reason to get Phalanx 2 is effectively moot because PLD can use it on themselves, SCH can AoE the teir one for equal effectiveness, or RDM can /SCH and do the same. RDM is a self buffer, and every one of them works to great effect. Any job can /WHM now and buff the group nearly as good as a RDM, soon any job can /RDM and the only buff RDM would have to itself would be refresh II, which is limited to several jobs of worth to cast it on.

I personally would have rather seen support given to our lacking healing abilities long before the melee side, I feel RDM is in a solid place already DD wise, good on smaller shit, passable on the medium shit, and useless on the toughest stuff, right where it should be.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Phalanx II has the benefit of longer duration, does not require light arts/strategem, and doesn't require being in Aoe range of the mob. Until Paladin gets ~100 or so enhancing in gear I'm going to call their phalanx inferior to Rdm's (apparently a moot point for some people regardless).

Refresh is worth casting on anyone with MP bar Sch main iirc (and still doesn't require losing HP or taking too many hits before it stops working), unless that's what you're calling being limited...

[Swords]

Yeah but there's the catch 22 with that your forced to pick and choose between Phalanx II, Bio/Dia III, and other Tier II debuffs for effectiveness/duration.

And I think what he was referring too is the number of jobs Refresh II needs to be cast on, granted yes all MP users are worth using it on, but only about half the jobs out there use mp, whereas any Job can benefit from Haste in some form or another.

Quick Edit: On a side note some of those said jobs that use MP don't even need refresh regularly, just as needed.

[FrankReynolds]

What the hell are you talking about? Taking the place of another spell. You do know Haste and Refresh recast timers are both near 10 seconds, there is more than enough time to tack in extra spells, how the hell do you think RDM mainhealed TP burns without droping buffs....

I'm talking about them adding this instead of new spells being added ie. instead of refresh III haste II phalanx III slow III Gravity II Addle II ...... I'm not making suggestions, these are just an example of what this spell could have been instead of a %5 DA boost.


Enfeebling is up to snuff, the issue isn't the spells it is the limitations that SE has imposed on them. IE. making pretty much everything worthwhile immune to them. The stuff we can land them on we do so to a great effect, unless being able slow a mob down enough you can cast stoneskin between melee attacks isn't slow enough.


Exactly the sort of things that I would rather see worked on.


RDM was also never a great buffer, we have haste and refresh really awesome buffs, but that is about it. Hell the only reason to get Phalanx 2 is effectively moot because PLD can use it on themselves, SCH can AoE the teir one for equal effectiveness, or RDM can /SCH and do the same. RDM is a self buffer, and every one of them works to great effect. Any job can /WHM now and buff the group nearly as good as a RDM, soon any job can /RDM and the only buff RDM would have to itself would be refresh II, which is limited to several jobs of worth to cast it on.

Again, things they could be looking at.


I personally would have rather seen support given to our lacking healing abilities long before the melee side, I feel RDM is in a solid place already DD wise, good on smaller shit, passable on the medium shit, and useless on the toughest stuff, right where it should be.

I agree with you on this, that's why I think the spell is a waste if it comes in the place of something else.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You can still merit dia to 2 and have 5 phalanx, you won't miss bio if you don't solo. Taking a minor hit in the effectiveness of Slow/Para is something I can live with.

[Stylin]

You are aware that they are also making adjustments to enfeebling magic, right?