SE, Temper Activation Rate

[Neisan_Quetz]

Unless they change our merit category that isn't going to change 5/5 Slow II being negligible compared to 1/5 Slow 2 at capped dMND.

[Stylin]

Unless they change our merit category that isn't going to change 5/5 Slow II being negligible compared to 1/5 Slow 2 at capped dMND.

I wasn't talking to you. My apologies for not using a quote. At the time I was typing that out you had not yet responded.

[Mageoholic]

You are aware that they are also making adjustments to enfeebling magic, right?

Ill believe that when I see it. As it stands the only issue with enfeebles is mobs immunities to them. Locked out because according to popular opinion RDM would be to powerful otherwise. Considering locking out enfeebles didn't eliminate extreme soloing, this mentality should be scraped. All that has taken place is RDM soloing took a turn from kite/nuke to straight nuke/melee.

On top of this lack of any real impact on soloing (the root reasoning for enfeebles to be greatly resisted/immune) is the fact that not only can a lot of jobs solo effectively (DNC,PUP,DRG,BST,NIN,THF,BLM,SCH,SMN) most if not all can do so better (faster/safer) then a RDM can. From my own personal experience BLM solo's faster and just as safe as a RDM in a nuking role, and DNC absolutely smears anything a RDM hopes to do melee wise.

SE needs to stop not wanting to make RDM a god, they need knock down the walls they have built to house it, then tool it back from there. Otherwise all we are ever going to see are neat tricks like Temper, that mask the overlying issue, and that issue is SE doesn't know how to improve RDM, and that they are to afraid to really tweak it because the community backlash will be so great.

IMHO they need to do similar to what they did in the 2H update, break RDM to the point where it is a god, then tweak it so it fits comfortably. I mean christ look at BLU and how incredibly powerful it has become over the last several months, and look at DNC, two jobs that have had their shackles removed and buffed out the ass, with seemingly no end. Two jobs that also share the mantle of being a Hybrid.

[Kitkat]

trolololo pardon me while I show the inadequacies and deficiencies cause I could not read and basically just said the same thing you did, but also feel the need to insult your place to say anything in the matter.

I love trolls, they take the smallest thing and blow it out of proportion because they think it proves their point. Now you're just being childish. Has nothing to do with Epeen, but I guess for you it does even though it is a relevant point to the entire misinformed reasoning of your whole point of view. I already stated the very same thing you did, but at the same time you once again didn't note any of the similarities which you accuse others of doing.Moving on, nothing left to say to you.

The problem with some of the views or skim reading people seem to be taking out of this is they believe the spell is intended to make rdm front line in -everything- while moaning and groaning that it should have the ability to be cast on others.

My stand: Not what I meant as I stated that a noticeable gap still exists between rdm and jobs who rely specifically on melee accuracy. I don't believe the spell is intended to fit rdm up front, but it does add to a rdm's ability to do so if the situation allows for it (Between the line point: Not so a rdm can melee on HNM/High Tier NM). This isn't a black and white discussion, there are shades of grey where half the points some of you are making don't even apply. In fact it is like telling other jobs they should only do the one thing they are good at.

A whm should only heal because they get big robust cure/curaga/status removal spells and JA.

Blm should only nuke cause they get big nukes and blow things up.

It isn't that way at all unless the character is A.) A bot (gasp) or B.) A secondary character that the person playing only alt+tabs over to so they can do one or two things then hop back to their main character. Any other time a person will do more than just what the job is good at because it is either required or there is room for it.

Abyssea made it to where certain things will only be done until certain conditions are met, but with changes to Dynamis and the introduction of VWNM as well as changes to WoE it is clear SE doesn't want this to be the only thing available to do as they crawl towards 99cap. Not to mention with caps going from 80-90 as more abyssea zones were introduced the earlier ones became extremely easy to accomplish. Most nm's at the start of Abyssea that required decent sized groups now only require 1-2 people and only roughly 4-5 max if going for more than just one !! proc type.

What does all that mean to any of this? That the role of rdm will not drastically change to where you'll see them up front with other DD's, just the opposite. Rdm will still be performing their role as they always have, but in the easier situations I don't see it being out of place that a rdm pulls out a sword and uses melee oriented gear for a change up. There shouldn't be a problem with it especially when "traditional xp" or "tp burn" pt's don't exactly exist anymore. Even when a rdm is invited to one of these there is usually little need to slow/para/dia every mob cause it either dies in 3 seconds or it is being slept by blm, blu, or brd with the group.

Composure and augmented composure gear causes buffs to last longer meaning they don't need to be cast nearly as often as they once did. I can recall a number of times when this was asked for to make rotations less tedious/stressful back when traditional or tp burns were the mainstream of xp. This is as simple as a macro swap out, which isn't any different than any other swap out. The anti-melee nay sayers give every reason why this is bad, but still fails to see that the Rdm is not trying to be a traditional DD, they are trying to be a Hybrid-job capable of DD as it was originally marketed as and was in previous FF games. It was never better at a role than jobs that had that as the primary function of its job. This is just a change to the "Jack of all trades, master of none" build the job was meant to have.

Some state that Rdm's master role is Enfeebling, which I don't see changing in the near future either. Currently though, this role is not very true either as even as the "Master enfeebler" they can not always stick enfeebles and maintain good potency to the spell due to element affinity, resistance, or other such related problems. While SE has stated they plan to adjust this, it has yet to be seen or fully realized as they test additions they have already decided on/instated. That is where Temper and the discussion of it as a capable addition to the melee aspect of Rdm comes into play.

It is to address the concerns that people who enjoy this aspect of play when the situation allows for it can sufficiently add to DD as a hybrid, but not outshine any pure-blood DD while doing it. Hence the effect of the spell, the limited usability of the spell, and the overall low % rate of the spell. I still think it is a nice spell and with further alterations to be affected by enhancing skill tiers it has the capability of giving Rdm the nudge it needs to fit the hybrid role they were initially told the job could fill.

[Kenthedeviant]

Ok I generally don't post here, but there is a lot of misinformation in this thread (this might get lengthy).

2. Lack of weaponskills.

False RDM is privileged with 4 great weaponskills natively

Native
Evisceration- Probably the best non CDC damage weaponskill, and the go to weaponskill for most dagger wielding jobs. Great in abyssea, solid outside of abyssea.

CDC- Obviously great, the best sword WS in the game currently.

Death Blossom- Great Multihit sword WS, with a benefit to casting via the magic evade down bonus, excellent for use as /Mage applying extra damage between casting duties.

AE- A great AoE WS's that is directly boosted by our mage stats, RDM is the best in the game with this WS.

4 very strong and useful WS's all available natively, and all used very effectively, coincidently the listed WS's are also used by the other dagger and sword jobs.


(these forums are so sad.)

Um... Do you even know what the word "natively" MEANS? YOu're right, these forums are sad, especially with contributions like yours.

[Scuro]

There is a difference between debunking and merely responding. You're not providing any evidence as to why Red Mage should be more than what it is other than "But I want it to be a buffer! QQ" In fact, all you've shown is that you're fully aware it's not. I hope you realize that you just painted yourself to be a gigantic hypocrite.

"But the manifesto says..!"

Listen, Square had promised in the past that they were going to bring RDM to the front lines. Camate has already stated (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11518-Job-Adjustment%EF%BD%93-Manifesto-RDM?p=165408&viewfull=1#post165408) that they were looking into enhancing a Red Mages martial prowess. Or is that just a case of Square "appeasing the evil DD RDMs"?

The fact of the matter is you were lied to and you fell for it, hook, line and sinker.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

My proof is an actual Dev Post, yours is some misconstrued way of reading a post as FrankReynolds has pointed out. This job, will not see the light of a DD day, ever. I don't know why people don't see that, the output of the REAL DD classes is far surpassing of RDM, and unless RDM gets some native DD Traits, I don't expect much of anything to come out of RDM in terms of DD. Its just so disappointing that this Temper spell was a self cast only, such a waste for good double attack... At least a BLU would of made good use of it.

[Quetzacoatl]

Temper on BLU would be absolutely *** overpowered and you know it.

/slowclap

[Crimson_Slasher]

All i have to say is if they make rdm a line of spells/ja that push rdm to the delay cap while keeping enspells active, i will personally create a mule on odin to watch scuro defficate bricks and nerdrage all over port jeuno. As it stands to be, whomever has some numbers for CDC ws, if you can rig up a calculator for the ws, try popping in 22+ dex in rdm's favor. Dont recall where, but somewhere on these forums someone said that gain spells will rise sharply by 99, being between 22 and 27? (perhaps 30?!) of a stat boost. That is a substantial boost, and if it can/does push rdm to/above blu raw damages, with ws, then i can personally see rdm allowed to atleast hack into some mobs here or there in the near future just to fell them more quickly. Conversely im sure our lumpy faced galka friend will jump right back on here and through a series of muscle spasms, and countless face to keyboard impacts, will, throught some miracle, manage post some semi-cohierent post about how blu is invited for their damage aspects on nms. The sad reality is its blus like him who while doing sufficient, or even impressive damage, will just result in either feeding far too much tp, or being scolded, having a staff slapped in his hands, and told to "Shut up and proc or heal or GTFO, we need to kill this, not stroke your ego."

Back to what you said scuro when blu was shunned from bird/tp burn parties, know what we called them on my server? "Princess Blus" whom werent invited because frankly, the concept of conserving tp was unthinkable, and while you buttonmashed your damage macros, forced a responsible rdm to throw you yet another haste or refresh because they couldnt behave. And thats what blu has become, the spoiled princess. I'm sorry if you take offense to this kitkat, its my feelings toward blu, not you personally, you are atleast a reasonable person. But Blu is now more of a spoiled princess than ever. Blus outcry that their pretty dress isnt as pretty as other people's so they get lumped onto nigh every piece of gear imaginable, be it mage or light/support DD. They cry that their toys arent as new and enviable as other people's so theyre given new spells with such raw damage potential that its laughable anyone can claim that job balance was even considered upon their implementation between their explosive power, insignifigant cast time, and miniscule mp costs. The princess blus then bawl after all of this that their jewlery isnt as sparkly as others, so now their best and brightest spells come with job traits that frankly many jobs envy. So now with all of this, blu is on a powertrip, staring down from her throne, laughing at all the pesants, feeling as if God themselves has mandated them as the supreme being whom is burdened with the responsibility of educating the stupid masses. This causes arrogance, and the spoiled princess has become a spoiled queen, and frankly, nobody likes a tyrant, so if you do want to keep talking about rdm and its weakness, as well as any other job's weaknesses, dont be surprised if people start a wave to dethrone you, because even as a new dev team, they have shown little to no hesitation to nerf things if it has the potential of abusability, and frankly, i have a feeling the nerf bat is coming, and when it hits, other blus will cope, but you, you're going to fall hard. Hope you will enjoy when you are left in a gutter in your filthy dress, staff in hand, struggling to heal /whm just to cope with new content, because these same rdm players you loathe so much are likely to start watching you with daggers in their eyes, and when it comes down to you playing blu because of your pride, and they all switch to the important jobs, you watch as they lump you in with whm because you can hold a cure staff and can cast haste and self refresh, and turn you into the servant you wish other jobs to be to enhance your game vision.

Again, sorry if that felt hurtful Kitkat, but i know you will be able to cope or make a change, but Scuro is too prideful, and too egotistical to stop being a princess and start being a player whom wants to see all jobs recieve desired content. Course if they do keep going this way, every single melee oriented buff to rdm is going to be met with resistance, there is no doubt of this, and until we are gifted with them all, and it forms a complete picture, its just going to seem like wasted time to all the anti-melee rdm players.

[Kitkat]

Reasonable post shortened for quote purpose only

I in no way feel offended by this as it is true. Prior to 80 cap blu had mediocre dmg potential unless sub /thf when compared to a war, sam, or drk. Blu had no reason to be in a TP burn because they could solo imps to chain 5 relatively easy, and only really shined in things like Limbus or dynamis but little else in a group setting. Now blu is extremely powerful in physical or magical damage and will soon be able to fit a back up healer role even better due to white wind, and tank roles with barrier tusk. Saying blu hasn't gotten a good chunk of SE love like Sam did for so long isn't a long shot at all. I was rdm for years, and one of the first of a handful to take blu to 75 prior to AF even being introduced. The job use to be very inadequate, and even now it has the pitfall of feeding far too much TP on multi-strike spells.

Rdm though, was my first love until HNM had me permanently stuck on the job regardless of what else I had. Now I only bring it out if absolutely necessary, or to have fun on the job with a group of friends from my LS. Apples to oranges, rdm melee is no where near as bad as it once was and I welcome further adjustments that enhance this aspect of the rdm, but like any melee rdm I also know that when on rdm in certain situations I'll still be in the back line. Doesn't mean I still don't want something to enhance my melee when I can come up the the frontline.

Also, temper doesn't need to have the ability to cast on others when you look at just how much haste+da/ta they get from gear and traits already. Thf? 15% DA, 18%TA, 26%haste >.> like they really need 5~10% Occasionally attack twice. Blu? 13~20%da ~3%TA (after update ~8-13%ta option) and 26% haste, not to mention the ability to keep all that and add 5% crit dmg with a total of +13stp...yeah blu doesn't need temper. Especially with more DA gear options coming up from added content. Please go Mary Sue yourself somewhere else if you think differently.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Thankyou for your understanding, im admittedly a little biast against blus because similar to scuro's "Dislike of rdm due to rdm melee" i am a bit at a loss as to the blus that are still crying "MORE MORE MORE!!!" even after getting that heavy strike spell, which there are screenshots clocking in at 8k damage, which even for an empy wielding job, is a stretch, and in some cases, non empy ws jobs have to brew to hit that. I know blu has its flaws, as does every class, but point for point, blu has more going for them than many other jobs across the board. I dont wish to see blu turned into rdm as it once was, but with it easier to jump on a bandwaggon these days due to abyssea, i am beginning to think either the melee leads will see blu as healer #2, or just as likely, a bunch of bandwaggon players will flock to blu, just so they can get gear from events for their main jobs, as many jobs flocked to rdm to get merits pre-abyssea. And once again, i can tell from how you talk, that you will take a forced role, begrudgingly, but in stride, where Scuro will rage out and throw a <Temper> tantrum when he doesnt get his way. I can be known for my temper, especially on rdm melee forums, but i try to keep civil, until the insults start flying that is.

[Karbuncle]

Rather you start the insults or someone else does, Two wrongs don't make a right.

Best thing you can do is continue to keep it civil. Let them fly off the deep end. If you're talking civil/calmly, The only thing they accomplish by raging is making themselves look childish and foolish.

Which is a magnificent way to discredit someone.

[Crimson_Slasher]

While i can agree to that Karbuncle, its also a great way to strengthen your cause, because while you show your fanatical lack of civility, you show that there are individuals whom feel very strongly about the subject, if everyone handled everything in a bureaucratic manner, then we would all be talking like Ben Stein and showing virtually no emotion. Additionally, lack of retaliation against an assault on something we feel strongly about could send off messages that we dont care enough and will just roll over and take it, which is not the case clearly. Two wrongs may not make a right, but there are very few cases where something is completely wrong, and those shades of gray do have bright sides afterall.

[cidbahamut]

While i can agree to that Karbuncle, its also a great way to strengthen your cause, because while you show your fanatical lack of civility, you show that there are individuals whom feel very strongly about the subject
Perhaps, but it still undermines your position in the long run. It stifles constructive discussion and simply makes you look like someone who isn't really worth listening to because you're too busy being angry to take the time to actually sit down and discuss things.

When all you have to offer is rage and confrontation, you aren't worth listening to. That goes for both sides of the debate.

[Rayik]

Deleted. Too late to the party to matter.

[Juxtaposition]

Temper on BLU would be absolutely shit-faced overpowered and you know it.

/slowclap

Hahaha you think adding some DA to a job would overpower it hahahah

[Rayik]

You guys can pop that BS all day, but the fact is that when you are on the front line poking and taking damage, you are not curing, hasting, slowing, paralyzing, blinding, diaing, addling, poisoning, refreshing etc. like you are supposed to be. Hell if you cast any of that shit you completely lose all dd efficiency and purpose on the front line due to constant casting. and thats not even taking into account that you are casting in swords now. Give it up and request that SE give us something that helps us with our enfeebling and buffs like they said they would. Quit being childish and trying to act like everyone needs to be doing that crap.

SE has already made a stance that they are bulking up our melee. Talk about "give it up" and "acting childish." It's not a theory anymore, RDM melee is a play style preference for many Red Mages. If the numbers were so small and niche as you try to paint "us" out to be, there would be no melee boost. Period. The fact that they went as far as to give us gear, self-only spells, JA's, etc, should be more than enough for you mage-only fascists to take your heads out of your rears and leave the rest of us alone. It's a preference for crying out loud. Don't like it? Don't do it.

Some of us find RDM melee fun. Wow, let's fight about it.

Nobody is taking your staff away from you.

And really, I've been on the front lines melee'ing, curing, hasting, refreshing, dia'ing all day, just fine. Just because you put zero effort into something, if you don't lift a finger to make something out of it, of course it's going to be worthless to you.

[cidbahamut]

Sorry Ray, but I gotta pick your post apart and reel you back in before you go over the deep end.

SE has already made a stance that they are bulking up our melee. Talk about "give it up" and "acting childish."

Valid


It's not a theory anymore, RDM melee is a play style preference for many Red Mages. If the numbers were so small and niche as you try to paint "us" out to be, there would be no melee boost. Period.

I challenge you(or the mage enthusiasts) to present evidence of these numbers. It's all hearsay and personal experiences with nothing substantive that we can point to and say "here is the exact divide within the community and X is clearly more popular than Y across all servers". Until we have that data, that argument cannot be made.



The fact that they went as far as to give us gear, self-only spells, JA's, etc, should be more than enough for you mage-only fascists to take your heads out of your rears and leave the rest of us alone. It's a preference for crying out loud. Don't like it? Don't do it.

Uncalled for.

Preference is a personal choice, it carries no weight of correctness or superiority or even viability. Someone could have a preference for wielding staves on Paladin but that doesn't mean that preference should be cultivated at the expense of development man-hours.

Asking people to stop heckling you, that I'm ok with. There's too much resentment and bitterness surrounding these discussions.



Some of us find RDM melee fun. Wow, let's fight about it.

Yes let's. On other forums this might be acceptable, but here we know the devs are listening and both camps have good reason to fear the other side getting the dev's ear because then the job will evolve with their input influencing the devs.



Nobody is taking your staff away from you.

No, but with the limited man-hours of a reduced development staff working on an old game, there is the very real fear of neglect, which is just as crippling.



And really, I've been on the front lines melee'ing, curing, hasting, refreshing, dia'ing all day, just fine. Just because you put zero effort into something, if you don't lift a finger to make something out of it, of course it's going to be worthless to you.
The problem is that aside from damage, Red Mage doesn't add much by being on the front lines and they can already add that damage in the form of nukes. Additionally to melee competently you have to give up a large chunk of inventory. Nukes provide respectable damage the same as melee, but do not suffer from the opportunity cost since a lot of the gear for nuking also functions for the rest of what Red Mage is already providing, thus offering more flexibility in gearing. The more flexibility you have in your gear, the more you can accomplish while on Red Mage.

[Rayik]

Dangit Cid, I was on a roll! lol

I can't provide the numbers on exactly how many RDM's wanted melee boosts, but considering the absolute lethargy the dev team has had involving anything RDM related since before even Abyssea, the fact that they have taken the time to do something should show there was at least enough demand to grab their attention. Even the JP playerbase has been clamoring for it from what I hear(can't quote it, I can't read japanese). So, it's sort of just saying the existence of a sizable boost says how much of a demand there is. Getting new self-only spells that are specifically for melee(Temp, Gain-STR, DEX, etc) should tell you that there is indeed a sizable demand. Far more than some of the mage-only enthusiasts would lead you to believe.

And yes, nuking can provide a sizeable amount of damage, but how many nukes are you getting off while cycling through spells? And this just brings us back to the question of why even have a RDM in the party; if I want someone standing in the back nuking, I can think of a job I'd rather have, that can still provide cures and buffs /whm(BLM, anyone?).

It's situational; some mobs, magic damage from nuking is ineffective. Some mobs are weak to weapons(qutrubs, for example), so weapon damage would be more ideal I would think. Also, consider melee doesn't carry the casting time and mp cost that nuking does; I can still cure, buff, and enfeeble, with melee attacks slipping through in between(and during) the spells being cast.

Melee 100% of the time is not optimal, and isn't even what a lot of us are asking for.

And again, SE is already working on new and fixing old enfeebles. So again, nobody is taking your staff away from you.

[Karbuncle]

While i can agree to that Karbuncle, its also a great way to strengthen your cause, because while you show your fanatical lack of civility, you show that there are individuals whom feel very strongly about the subject, if everyone handled everything in a bureaucratic manner, then we would all be talking like Ben Stein and showing virtually no emotion. Additionally, lack of retaliation against an assault on something we feel strongly about could send off messages that we dont care enough and will just roll over and take it, which is not the case clearly. Two wrongs may not make a right, but there are very few cases where something is completely wrong, and those shades of gray do have bright sides afterall.

Entirely too pessimistic point of view in my opinion, and a little unimaginative.

You can have a passionate, interesting, and serious discussion without dropping F-bombs, Calling eachother idiots, and raging like someone with Intermittent Explosive Disorder coming off their meds.

Theres a right way to debate your topic, and theres a wrong way. Needless anger? The wrong way. Just because you don't crack wise about someones mother during an argument doesn't mean your argument loses validity.

[Mageoholic]

some times idiots just need to be told they are idiots.

[Hyrist]

Sorry Ray, but I gotta pick your post apart and reel you back in before you go over the deep end.

Just be aware other people are around to do the same courtesy to you, cid. You are just as prone to heated debate an insults as the rest of us.



Yes let's. On other forums this might be acceptable, but here we know the devs are listening and both camps have good reason to fear the other side getting the dev's ear because then the job will evolve with their input influencing the devs.

An what is bad about further developing an otherwise neglected aspect of the job? If anything I hope it is a sign that they won't forget their more casual base when developing the new endgame. Right now, Voidwatch doesn't have a broad appeal, not nearly when compared to how effective Abyssea was. (Though admitted, Abyssea was wide in scope.)

Red Mage has always been conceptually a hybrid job with more leanings towards it's magic side. And you're arguing against the further development of it, why? Because you're afraid it will take the job in an undesired direction when the whole of endgame itself is still mostly an unknown? As you've acknowledged, Melee is part of the job that will not go away. The question I pose to you is, why not develop it further and give it a specific role in which it is acceptable by the community?

As you said, the development eyes are here, but more importantly, the eyes of the community at large are directed this way as well. There's an opportunity here to carve a niche for Red Mage's martial side that will stem the arguments once an for all, and help develop a proper course for feedback in development.

The debate shouldn't be 'No don't give RDM any melee updates.' or 'It's a waste of development time.' It should be an argument of the whens and hows. And then progress into developments that feed those whens.

The biggest goal for most melee enthusiasts is that there is an acceptable 'role' for frontline within groups. Not ALL groups, mind you, but a good deal more than what's being seen as acceptable on the forums at least. Gameplay is a different story and people are far more lenient there, in my experience.




No, but with the limited man-hours of a reduced development staff working on an old game, there is the very real fear of neglect, which is just as crippling.


This argument would hold weight, ANY weight at all if it didn't come into testing at the exact same time as Spontaneity. If anything what this argues is a lack(or loss) of patience. If there is any doubt that RDM is going to come into its own in terms of being caster, it is more due to the lack of overall faith in Square Enix as a company to fill the bill, and has little to nothing to do with the Melee debate in general.

Tacking it into the debate itself is a straw-man argument. There is nothing preventing the development of both aspects of the job, or even intertwining the two, which would be my preference.


The problem is that aside from damage, Red Mage doesn't add much by being on the front lines and they can already add that damage in the form of nukes. Additionally to melee competently you have to give up a large chunk of inventory. Nukes provide respectable damage the same as melee, but do not suffer from the opportunity cost since a lot of the gear for nuking also functions for the rest of what Red Mage is already providing, thus offering more flexibility in gearing. The more flexibility you have in your gear, the more you can accomplish while on Red Mage.

Again, I disagree. If you're separating Potency from Accuracy in your enfeebles, Nuking actually costs you a decent amount in possible gear pieces, especially in accessory slots. Right now RDM has a poor representation of INT base enfeebles to justify the use of an INT based gear set, and only gear it mainly to accompany Nuking as well. However M.Atk serves no other purpose than nuking itself (Except for magic based WSes, which is more an argument for fixing magical WSes to matter more), and maxing out said stat can cost a good amount of gear slots on its own. Granted, not as much as TP and WS set.

But here in lies the difference between nuking and Melee. While it is currently more gear intensive, it is also more sustainable than Nuking everywhere outside Abyssea. Nuking is still a large MP investment, even with Refresh II and 6+ Refresh in idle gear. Nuking is also TIME intensive. Nothing prevents you from interrupting your melee to toss out a sudden cure, refresh a Debuff, or in the super-rare cases you're meleeing /drk or /blm, toss out a much needed stun (suppose you can do that /dnc too with violent flourish.) However, if you're caught casting a nuke when you're in need for this, the best you can do is take a knee and hope you can stand back up enough to cast in time to cure.

In situations in which you can casually contribute damage without substantial risk, Melee typically wins out over nuking. The issue is of course the risk involved, not really the gear involved at this point, though RDM stands to benefit from getting more Hybrid or attack orientated gear, that's for sure.

I'd like to see a more varied endgame, honestly. Something that encourages more hybrid play up until a boss fight. This way RDM can start on in swinging, then swap out gear to the mog sack/satchel real quick to pull out the needed mage gear for bosses, or even separate the two instances but keep them related (currency earned in a fodder run goes to costs of boss pops for a boss run.) That way we're tackeling more in depth problems than simply "Oh hey this monsters waaay too hard for light damage jobs to be swinging at it."

For Example:
I LIKE the New Dynamis stagger system, honestly. Playing RDM/DNC (If I'm not /sch for status removals or /blm for crowd control) is amazing to work on procs. Having more people in the thick of things for JA and WS procs actually helps, and the fact that I'm a lower damage scale actually means that when heavier DD's hold off, I can work the monster up to try to get in the highly desired "!!".

If the future of endgame works more along those lines I'd be more happy in using both aspects of my Job. But I've no illusions about developing our support and enfeeble aspects further for Bosses. I'm fine with that concept. But there's no need to get in a holler about developing the melee side, especially if endgame tends to be more varied, which I sincerely hope it does.

[Karbuncle]

some times idiots just need to be told they are idiots.

I disagree :D!

But thats okay in the end.

[cidbahamut]

Dangit Cid, I was on a roll! lol

I can't provide the numbers on exactly how many RDM's wanted melee boosts, but considering the absolute lethargy the dev team has had involving anything RDM related since before even Abyssea, the fact that they have taken the time to do something should show there was at least enough demand to grab their attention. Even the JP playerbase has been clamoring for it from what I hear(can't quote it, I can't read japanese). So, it's sort of just saying the existence of a sizable boost says how much of a demand there is. Getting new self-only spells that are specifically for melee(Temp, Gain-STR, DEX, etc) should tell you that there is indeed a sizable demand. Far more than some of the mage-only enthusiasts would lead you to believe.

See, it's that lethargy that has me worried, since I don't trust SE to hand out a balanced set of updates that appeal to everyone. The fear is that they'll shift their focus to finally enhancing melee and the mage side (and subsequently Red Mage as a whole) will suffer for it. If not through active nerfs then certainly through the same kind of neglect they showed melee for years.

Temper is the only thing so far that's clearly designed as a melee update. Gain STR and DEX are simply the continuation of an already existing line of buffs. We knew they were coming and their arrival does not signify anything more than that.

Lastly, demand is only an indicator of popularity, not of something's worth. Earth Staff/turtle Paladins were popular for a while but that didn't make them good. Make the case for the usefulness of your playstyle, but don't confuse popularity for merit, especially when most of FFXI's population wears their pants on their head.



And yes, nuking can provide a sizeable amount of damage, but how many nukes are you getting off while cycling through spells? And this just brings us back to the question of why even have a RDM in the party; if I want someone standing in the back nuking, I can think of a job I'd rather have, that can still provide cures and buffs /whm(BLM, anyone?).

Depends. Shit's situational.



It's situational; some mobs, magic damage from nuking is ineffective. Some mobs are weak to weapons(qutrubs, for example), so weapon damage would be more ideal I would think. Also, consider melee doesn't carry the casting time and mp cost that nuking does; I can still cure, buff, and enfeeble, with melee attacks slipping through in between(and during) the spells being cast.

Melee carries no mp cost or casting time, but what it does carry is a prohibitive TP:damage ratio. We're still going to end up back at the time old mantra of "Shit's situational", that will never change.

Nitpicking: melee attacks don't actually occur during casting, it's just how the animation plays out.



Melee 100% of the time is not optimal, and isn't even what a lot of us are asking for.

And again, SE is already working on new and fixing old enfeebles. So again, nobody is taking your staff away from you.
I'm happy to add Temper to my arsenal for when I go Dark Ring farming, but I don't really consider it to be a major addition to our job. It's a fun little toy to help out on mauling fodder mobs, but we could already pull that off fairly well.

SE said they would fix enfeebles, but they also said they're pretty ok with how things have been in regards to damn near every NM having a ton of immunities to said enfeebles, so I am understandably concerned in that regard. I'd also like to point out again that lack of active removal of functionality does not preclude the possibility of neglect(as evidenced by Red Mage's melee situation for the last eight years).

[cidbahamut]

Just be aware other people are around to do the same courtesy to you, cid. You are just as prone to heated debate an insults as the rest of us.


[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]



If anything I hope it is a sign that they won't forget their more casual base when developing the new endgame.

Since when do you design endgame content with casual players in mind?

[Rayik]

See, it's that lethargy that has me worried, since I don't trust SE to hand out a balanced set of updates that appeal to everyone. The fear is that they'll shift their focus to finally enhancing melee and the mage side (and subsequently Red Mage as a whole) will suffer for it. If not through active nerfs then certainly through the same kind of neglect they showed melee for years.

True, but what choice do we have? None of us are SE developers. None that I've seen, anyway. We can prattle on and on about what each of us think the job is, or the direction we think is best, but none of us are actually handling the game's development. Yes, our feedback on this forum is the closest we're ever going to get, but we have no choice but to let SE do their thing, and give feedback accordingly. If anyone really distrusts SE more than that, why would they still play this game?



Temper is the only thing so far that's clearly designed as a melee update. Gain STR and DEX are simply the continuation of an already existing line of buffs. We knew they were coming and their arrival does not signify anything more than that.


Gotta nitpick you a little bit. Gain-Str and Dex are a LOT more than "just a continuation;" they give you a bonus to melee stats. I consider that a melee buff. Gain-Mnd and Int will surely help spell casting, but Gain-Str is absolutely a melee buff. Unles I'm missing something involving Str and spellcasting...




Lastly, demand is only an indicator of popularity, not of something's worth. Earth Staff/turtle Paladins were popular for a while but that didn't make them good. Make the case for the usefulness of your playstyle, but don't confuse popularity for merit, especially when most of FFXI's population wears their pants on their head.

If it's an indicator of popularity, as you say here, then what does that say for the melee crowd? We're popular all of a sudden? Not a bad thing from my perspective.



Melee carries no mp cost or casting time, but what it does carry is a prohibitive TP:damage ratio. We're still going to end up back at the time old mantra of "Shit's situational", that will never change.

Nitpicking: melee attacks don't actually occur during casting, it's just how the animation plays out.

Once our prohibitive TP:damage output ratio comes a little closer, you're saying melee will be viable? I think this hinges largely on the WS adjustment portion of the update. If it works in our favor, if we gain access to WS like Vorpal Blade, then those in addition to having magian/empyrean weps, STR/DEX boosting spells, DA, all that shiny new haste gear, new swords, etc sounds like a pretty good recipe for melee output to me. The +AGI on that new sword also adds to Subtle Blow, also that drain-tp effect further lessening the prohibitive TP we dish out.



I'm happy to add Temper to my arsenal for when I go Dark Ring farming, but I don't really consider it to be a major addition to our job. It's a fun little toy to help out on mauling fodder mobs, but we could already pull that off fairly well.

SE said they would fix enfeebles, but they also said they're pretty ok with how things have been in regards to damn near every NM having a ton of immunities to said enfeebles, so I am understandably concerned in that regard. I'd also like to point out again that lack of active removal of functionality does not preclude the possibility of neglect(as evidenced by Red Mage's melee situation for the last eight years).

Well, if SE indeed leaves the existing enfeeble immunities/ridiculous resistances in place, maybe it's time we tried something different in a group situation to compensate? Just sayin, it might be time to switch things up a bit.

[Rayik]

Since when do you design endgame content with casual players in mind?

Maybe when a MMO is getting close to a decade old, and getting new players is very important?

EDIT: When most of the rest of the game's Endgame content has already been made more casual?

[cidbahamut]

Gotta nitpick you a little bit. Gain-Str and Dex are a LOT more than "just a continuation;" they give you a bonus to melee stats. I consider that a melee buff. Gain-Mnd and Int will surely help spell casting, but Gain-Str is absolutely a melee buff. Unles I'm missing something involving Str and spellcasting...

Nah. I was trying to point out that while they do benefit melee considerably, those spells were not designed specifically as an update to RDM's melee capabilities. They're simply part of a line of general purpose utility spells. It'd be like saying Black Mage getting Blizzard V was a buff to their ice damage. While it's technically true, it's just a logical progression of what's already been laid out previously.




Once our prohibitive TP:damage output ratio comes a little closer, you're saying melee will be viable? I think this hinges largely on the WS adjustment portion of the update. If it works in our favor, if we gain access to WS like Vorpal Blade, then those in addition to having magian/empyrean weps, STR/DEX boosting spells, DA, all that shiny new haste gear, new swords, etc sounds like a pretty good recipe for melee output to me. The +AGI on that new sword also adds to Subtle Blow, also that drain-tp effect further lessening the prohibitive TP we dish out.

I don't know that resolving the TP:damage ratio would actually change things. It's not that it's the sole thing preventing us from taking to the front lines, it's that it provides a major risk for doing so. Since we can do our maging from the backlines, it makes more sense to be there if our sword swinging provides more risk than reward. But again, we as a community still don't have a standard for measuring that. Heck, I'm not convinced that even zero TP per hit would be enough to place us at the front(short of having an alliance of RDMs guffawing at NMs without regain).

It's the age old problem of having to protect the mages because they're so much more valuable than the disposable meat shields that populate the front lines. It's partially a community problem, but it's also a problem of game mechanics and it's very difficult to tell where one half of it ends and the other begins, which makes it a very difficult problem to solve. But hey, I'm not a game designer so it's not my job to figure out how to make that happen, all I can do is offer up my opinions.



Well, if SE indeed leaves the existing enfeeble immunities/ridiculous resistances in place, maybe it's time we tried something different in a group situation to compensate? Just sayin, it might be time to switch things up a bit.
Maybe, but I think all that would realistically accomplish is banishing RDMs to the mog house with the letters "lolRDM" carved into our foreheads. I don't think any of us want that.

[cidbahamut]

Maybe when a MMO is getting close to a decade old, and getting new players is very important?

EDIT: When most of the rest of the game's Endgame content has already been made more casual?

I'd say there's a difference between designing content to be more accessible to players in general(yay for no more 24 hour spawn window nonsense), and designing events specifically for casual players.
Also there's probably a distinction to be made between events and end-game events.

[Rayik]

Nah. I was trying to point out that while they do benefit melee considerably, those spells were not designed specifically as an update to RDM's melee capabilities. They're simply part of a line of general purpose utility spells. It'd be like saying Black Mage getting Blizzard V was a buff to their ice damage. While it's technically true, it's just a logical progression of what's already been laid out previously.

Ok, I see where you're coming from with the rest of your post, but this is killing me. You can't count the new Gain spells separate from being a true melee buff and then turn around and say they buff melee, but it doesn't count because they were going to anyway previously? We got swords 8 years ago, I think that predates the Gain spells considerably in the "logical progression of melee" thing. Gain-STR is a new spell that's self only, and boosts melee, right there alongside Temper. Logical continuation or not, it is what it is, and those two together are a considerable boost for melee.

We're saying the same thing, just seems like classifying them differently for some reason.

[Rayik]

I'd say there's a difference between designing content to be more accessible to players in general(yay for no more 24 hour spawn window nonsense), and designing events specifically for casual players.
Also there's probably a distinction to be made between events and end-game events.

Abyssea is about as casual as it gets, was completely new endgame content, and in addition SE completely revamped Dynamis and removed the level cap from CoP and several nation missions. I think that's a pretty glaring approach to making endgame content more casual. I haven't done Voidwatch yet, so I really can't comment on it.

[cidbahamut]

Probably.

I'm imagining the paper-napkin design session where the developers sat down and it didn't go "hey let's buff RDM melee by giving it a line of stat boosting spells and two of those spells will boost melee stats". I imagine it more as "hey let's give RDM a cool line of new spells. Boosting base stats would be cool and useful for a bunch of different tasks and fits their theme of 'doing everything'. Oh and it'll make the melee crowd happy too, so everyone wins.".

[cidbahamut]

Abyssea is about as casual as it gets, was completely new endgame content, and in addition SE completely revamped Dynamis and removed the level cap from CoP and several nation missions. I think that's a pretty glaring approach to making endgame content more casual. I haven't done Voidwatch yet, so I really can't comment on it.

Voidwatch will kick your ass. It's Endgame content with a capital 'E'.

[Ophannus]

Considering THF's Bully and SCH 2hr spells and 2hr were revamped TWICE so far it's safe to say that when Camate posts about RDM's new ability/spell feedback, Temper should be getting a substantial boost in potency as well as a large reduction in Spontaneity's recast. /pray

[Ophannus]

Gain-STR is a negligble melee boost at best, it's just happenstance that it helps melee but we were bound to get it anyway in line with the other Gain-Stat spells. Gain-STR is about +18 STR with good enhancing skill and will probably end up being around 20-25 at 99. That's nice and all but STR isn't very useful in melee damage calculations if your pDIF isn't capped. Considering RDM's sword skill is low and we lack any native +Attack boosting abilities, the +STR really doesn't increase the damage much of our pitiful little sword swings. If it was Gain-Attack and gave us +50-100 attack then we'd be talking melee boost. But +base stats hardly help DD since our accuracy and attack ratings are atrocious in addition to us having much of melee gear aside from Nashira/Expansion augmented gear and a few pre75 pieces. I wouldn't mind SE producing a new set for mages that enhances melee abilities, make it a synergy recipe. Pieces could have tons of +Haste/Acc/Att/ and maybe even an 'enhance sword enhancment spell+X"

[Kitkat]

Yes, VWNM can be tediously hard on some of the fights not to mention striking weak-points while doing it to build your chance at getting items/key items in an area that is relatively limited. I've yet to try the new ones, but heard they will require crowd control tactics to be used again unless you'd rather just wipe.

I don't take from Camate's post that the boost will be substantial, but that it will still have the ability to be boosted to accommodate the fact that everything else enhancing based generally gets stronger as the skill goes up for rdm and that like some of these spells there will be an upper cap to keep it from getting too strong. Knowing SE I expect 5% base increase to 10% generously, or as blu recently learned about their Double attack trait only being 7% instead of the perceived 10%, a more realistic low end cap of 7~8%. I say this mainly due to how strength of enhancing magic spells has scaled down as the cap continues to rise. Phalanx beyond 300 skill has a similar equation to 5/5 phalanx II (which I assume is only to keep it balanced with Phalanx II since if it didn't change Phalanx would be up around 40 mitigation by now while II would start lagging behind by 320 tier).

Edit: Dat mining on test server shows that they are adding new alternatives to dusk+1 hands/feet, neck options and a few other items that will go towards complimenting rdm melee, but it is yet to be seen how easy/hard these items are to get at this point. Nothing shown that is specific to rdm much like enhancing sword was or other +enspell dmg options they added also (which is rather limited if I recall correctly).

[Hyrist]

I'd say there's a difference between designing content to be more accessible to players in general(yay for no more 24 hour spawn window nonsense), and designing events specifically for casual players.
Also there's probably a distinction to be made between events and end-game events.

A difference that needs to be blurred, in my opinion.

I have to wonder what your specific idea of 'endgame' is. Is it just tier based monsters you fight over and over again? As I Stated before in other forums, I find that sort of endgame rather boring and monotone. You can have many difficult bosses you can fight ,but it starts to degrade into the same old tank and spank with various "oh, but you have to hit this specific weakness." It lacks a lot about what I liked in Final Fantasy in general, where it was the players that were outnumbered, not the monster.

Not that I say they should abolish that direction, but to reinvest some time back into the Dynamis/Einherjar/Walk of Echoes/Salvage, bit where there were weaker monsters to handle first, or like Assaults/Campaign Ops where there was actual objectives that needed to be met. These situations could lend itself both to the casual player and more to the martial aspects (up until the bosses).

It's possible to make such an endgame accessible to the casual player yet still have the difficulty and rewards craved by the hardcore endgame base as well. It's really not all that hard, actually.

Here's one for you:

A lesser currency can be gained by doing 'fodder runs' in an arena setting that could use any particular zone. The currency can be used to buy mid-tier upgrades or temp items to assist performances in the run, as well as 'passes' to hop in the arena for boss fights which are done as separate runs. The higher the 'tier' mob, the higher currency cost.

Bosses drop trophies (key items that drop for everyone) that can be exchanged for high end gear. And the best of the gear require trophies form an entire series of mobs, rather than just one particular boss.

To spice things up, you can have some monsters in the fodder run be immune to magical damage, or physical damage, or have specific (and random) objectives to each run. (Think Nyzul Isle with a bit more depth.)

It's not hard to create a system that entertains both aspects. The idea here is to keep the appeal broad.

Endgame shouldn't be something reserved specifically for the hardcore base. And while it's nice to have the HNM system on a forced-pop basis, that only appeals to one category of possible endgame, and it really narrows the scope of play that was burst wide open by Abyssea.

I don't see that as intelligent game design. When you make a change that profound, you kinda need to follow through with it. I don't mind that the Hardcore Players got their hard fights back. In fact, I like it. But keeping the concept of 'endgame' broad will keep more players around.


Anyways, we're getting off topic. There are parts of the game (Granted, some of the older content.) in which RDM's frontline performances do work to benefit due to decreased difficulty and the resulting lower performance needs. There's nothing wrong with developing this further to make the martial aspects of the job more viable.

It would be something optional, but at least acceptable.

[FrankReynolds]

Ok, I see where you're coming from with the rest of your post, but this is killing me. You can't count the new Gain spells separate from being a true melee buff and then turn around and say they buff melee, but it doesn't count because they were going to anyway previously? We got swords 8 years ago, I think that predates the Gain spells considerably in the "logical progression of melee" thing. Gain-STR is a new spell that's self only, and boosts melee, right there alongside Temper. Logical continuation or not, it is what it is, and those two together are a considerable boost for melee.

We're saying the same thing, just seems like classifying them differently for some reason.

I have to chime in here, perhaps add some clarity. Gain-Str was added as a natural progression of spells. They didn't add it because Red mage needed some melee power. They added it because it was next up in that line of spells.

When they added Gain-CHR, they weren't just trying to come up with a clever way to keep people from knowing they wanted to boost red melee power.

While I can't know for sure if SE really wants Red to be a melee class.... I can guarantee you that they didn't add that line of spells as a specific means to Boost melee, I just happens that that is one of the things it does.

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees on STR being a melee stat. I think cid takes issue with it being used as an indicator of what red mage is supposed to become.

[cidbahamut]

A difference that needs to be blurred, in my opinion.

Your opinion doesn't count for much, Mr. I-Don't-Have-Time-To-Play-This-Game.

[Hyrist]

Again, you resort to insults when you can't come up with a good counter.

Are you going to come up with an intellectual reply to the topic or just try to anger me?

My playtime has absolutely nothing to do with this topic except for my leanings towards having this game be more accessible to those who cannot dedicate a regular schedule to the game. My idea makes up for that fact by instead of providing random rewards, making a system that allows for clear progression towards a goal regardless of play frequency. Those who play more would still progress faster given the system I've listed above, but those who live erratic schedules would not be subject to either getting lucky or getting nothing, or, in cases of more organized shells, constantly being at the rear of the list due to having a life outside FFXI.

It actually takes the DKP system and applies it directly into an in-game mechanic and keeps it in context to the event at hand. It also helps regard the RNG troubles that this game is notorious for.

[SpankWustler]

NeoDynamis is going to be full of weak monsters, with a few really hard ones here and there.

The new tiers of VoidWatch are going to be nothing but really hard monsters.

Before this, there was Abyssea and the initial tiers of Voidwatch. A similar dichotomy.

This seems like a fair indication that SE wants to maintain the status quo. Some stuff with fodder mixed in and some stuff with only huge monsters that hate all life and want to snuff it out with unpleasant status effects and area of effect attacks.

Works for me, as long as I never have to spend four hours a day cleaning my house due to boredom that is due to waiting on a dragon again. Although, that spot at the back of my over has never been so free of gunk before or since.

[Swords]

To spice things up, you can have some monsters in the fodder run be immune to magical damage, or physical damage, or have specific (and random) objectives to each run. (Think Nyzul Isle with a bit more depth.)



I could get behind the idea of a random immunity like this, it makes me think of how the enemies are in Diablo II on Hell or Nightmare mode would just randomly have some immunity and could seriously screw you over if you weren't versatile.

[Hyrist]

NeoDynamis is going to be full of weak monsters, with a few really hard ones here and there.

The new tiers of VoidWatch are going to be nothing but really hard monsters.

Before this, there was Abyssea and the initial tiers of Voidwatch. A similar dichotomy.

This seems like a fair indication that SE wants to maintain the status quo. Some stuff with fodder mixed in and some stuff with only huge monsters that hate all life and want to snuff it out with unpleasant status effects and area of effect attacks.

Works for me, as long as I never have to spend four hours a day cleaning my house due to boredom that is due to waiting on a dragon again. Although, that spot at the back of my over has never been so free of gunk before or since.

These kind of systems are find to a degree, but the problem is any value in gear is reserved for those who go all the way up in the difficulty tiers which can get rather annoying for those who have to measure the time invested verses the rewards.

That and it doesn't address the desires for a more battlefield approach, as I described earlier.

@Swords. Yeah, there doesn't seem to be enough battlefields that spice it up in a way that can't be predicted and turned into a grind. That sort of random flair always made things active and worthwhile.


*enters into battlefield*

-Destroy Flans!
- Don't Destroy the Bombs!

(bombs are suddenly immune to dark based sleep and have Regain.)

[Crimson_Slasher]

I will say, nyzul island is my favorite event, that said, we can hope dungeon crawl is lined up like that, with some sort of..."DUNGEON MASTER" whom randomly assigns rules and then places adventurers into battle against semi-randomly generated mobs.

[Ameglemorine]

It probably took like 30 seconds to "develop" this spell.

Lolz, I totally agreed!

[saevel]

Gain-STR is a negligble melee boost at best, it's just happenstance that it helps melee but we were bound to get it anyway in line with the other Gain-Stat spells. Gain-STR is about +18 STR with good enhancing skill and will probably end up being around 20-25 at 99. That's nice and all but STR isn't very useful in melee damage calculations if your pDIF isn't capped. Considering RDM's sword skill is low and we lack any native +Attack boosting abilities, the +STR really doesn't increase the damage much of our pitiful little sword swings. If it was Gain-Attack and gave us +50-100 attack then we'd be talking melee boost. But +base stats hardly help DD since our accuracy and attack ratings are atrocious in addition to us having much of melee gear aside from Nashira/Expansion augmented gear and a few pre75 pieces. I wouldn't mind SE producing a new set for mages that enhances melee abilities, make it a synergy recipe. Pieces could have tons of +Haste/Acc/Att/ and maybe even an 'enhance sword enhancment spell+X"

Wtf are you smoking. The purpose of STR is to boost fSTR not boost attack, more attack is a side effect not the primary cause. For low DMG / low delay weapons (dagger / sword) fSTR immensely effects damage potential. The lower your delay and the more attacks you get per unit of measurement, the more important fSTR becomes (until its capped). I'll illustrate.

LV 90 Almace
DMG 61 Delay 224
fSTR cap +14 (rank 6 weapon)

LV 90 Khanda +2 (DA 10)
DMG 55 Delay 252
fSTR cap +14 (rank 6 weapon)

To get +14 fSTR you would need 56 (14 * 4) more STR then the target has VIT, unless your fighting TW's this isn't going to happen on RDM outside abyssea. And thus more STR will ALWAYS be good for RDM. Now how much does capped fSTR improve those weapons ?

61+14 = 75, 75/61 = 1.229, 22.9% improved Damage over Time (DoT).
55+14 = 69, 69/55 = 1.254, 25.4% improved Damage over Time (DoT).
476 combined delay * .70 (30% DW) = 333.2 [334] * .90 (10% DA from sword) = 300.6 delay per attack round. 300.6/2 = 150.3 delay per swing.

75+69 = 144 DMG with capped fSTR, 144/2 = 72 DMG averaged per swing.
61+55 = 116 DMG with no fSTR, 116/2 = 58 DMG averaged per swing.
72/58 = 1.241, 24.1% increase in damage averaged per swing from capped fSTR.

Now lets use Ukon,
LV 90 Ukon
DMG 131 Delay 482
fSTR cap of +22, rank 16 weapon. Requires 88 more STR then the target has VIT, no WAR will have this on anything not TW outside abyssea in TP gear (73 required after the weapon's STR is counted). Thus more STR will always help WAR outside abyssea.

131 + 22 = 153/131 = 1.167, 16.7% increase in Damage over Time from capped fSTR.
Now since this is a 2H weapon I don't need to factor in DW or other non-haste based delay reduction.

That huge GAXE gets a 16.7% damage bonus from having 22 fTR (88 extra STR) while the swords above get a 24.1% damage bonus from only having 14 fSTR (56 extra STR), or 17 STR less then the WAR. Now lets go a bit deeper, the swords are getting that 24.1% bonus every 150.3 delay (once each swing) while the GAXE is getting its 16.7% damage bonus once every 482 delay.

482/150.3 = 3.206, basically the sword is swinging %320 faster then the GAXE for 2.1 times less damage (153/72). Everything else being equal the sword would win DPS (WS is a different situation). Now WAR's obviously have more attack / accuracy, haste (Hasso) and DA/TA for reducing average delay further.

Now I'm not comparing WAR to RDM, merely using their weapons to demonstrate that STR favors lower damage / faster weapons more then it does higher damage / slower weapons. STR is like enspells, it's calculated per hit with no respect to how fast your hitting and is a static value that doesn't scale well with higher DMG.

In short, I have +17 Gain-STAT now at 426 enhancing magic, the update between 90 and 95 is +7 skill per level for 461 skill (assuming no other gear), that equals a +21 STR bonus. 21/4 = 5.25 fSTR, we get +5 DMG for free with a 25% chance of +6. Assuming the skill scaling remains the same, then 99 will be 28 more skill or 489 skill for +23.9 STR. That is +5 with a 75% chance of +6, or if you can get 1 more enhancing magic for 490 skill you end up wtih +24 STR and +6 fSTR all the time.

So yeah Gain-STR is immense, it's fricking huge. I would take Gain-STR over Gain-DEX anyway, unless your fighting something weak enough to put you over 20 dDEX. Now if we got +crit damage gear and a ton more +DEX on +Haste gear, then Gain-DEX might be looked at for bumping our crit rate up (dDEX 40 to 50 is +10% crit rate).

[saevel]

Ok what the heck are people referring to as "end game" anyway? I keep hearing it mentioned and that somehow RDM's melee is worthless because we can't melee on "end game" mobs.

Considering I've meleeing on just about every "mega boss" other then PW (I'm too busy taking care of people to have time for meleeing, and I need to stay alive at all costs to keep the mages alive), I really don't understand the whole "RDM can't melee on end game" angle. Now this being said, on anything dangerous I'm usually /DRK now for denying the NM's super mega move of doom (if it's possible to do), so I'm not DWing. I stand in the back WITH EVERY OTHER MELEE and support the mages, tanks and our THF's as TH is built to 9~10 (we've seen 11 once). Once this is done, the fight proceeds in one of two ways.

First the leaders give a "kill it now" order, in which case all the melee's (including me) rush to the NM and proceed to rip it a new defecation orifice. I'm already prebuffed prior to this happening, the leaders communicate to me right before they do this and I use Saboteur Dia III (20~25% defense down due to NM stupid resistance) for a 29% bonus to everyone's attack. We all rush in, I use LR SE and proceed to CDC and ride SE until its dead. Everyone goes nuts and the NM dies 30~60s later.

The second method is if a NM has some sort of super mega death move that can kill all the DD's super fast. What the leaders do then is call in groups of melees 2~3 at a time and let them whack away for a bit, then swap in others (including myself). The idea is not to have all your DD's in range in case the NM use's "mega death move" and kill's any non-tank near it. This ensures the healer's aren't suddenly overburdened with 6~10 people in critical HP. As a RDM I tend to survive just about everything they throw at me and can keep myself alive near indefinitly. I've actually short term tanked things by cycling (Stoneskin -> Blink -> Cure IV -> Cure IV -> Stoneskin (aquaveil if it was used up previously), I can't do it forever but It'll prevent NM's from killing me if I pull hate due to a hate-reset move.

So I've yet to see the whole "RDM's can't melee HNM's" angle. We don't die easily, seriously we don't.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

The thing I don't get is, if this won't allow RDM's to melee "end-game" and will only buff the solo play then why are people throwing their dummies out of their pram so much.

SquareEnix already said that new spells were coming for RDM, along with the Enfeebling fix but they wouldn't be able to do it this update due to the time it takes...

So just let people be happy-ish about Temper, it would have taken them a small period of time to make it as it literally was a spell that just granted the Double attack trait while active to add to an update where they'd have had little to add for RDM.

[saevel]

The thing I don't get is, if this won't allow RDM's to melee "end-game" and will only buff the solo play then why are people throwing their dummies out of their pram so much.

That's the thing, RDM doesn't need anything to be able to "melee in end game", they already can. It's simply looking at the problem from a different point of view. There is currently nothing keeping a RDM from meleeing other then community pressure and cognitive dissonance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

It's a really good term / theory to describe the current state of RDM in FFXI. There are many people who absolutely believe a RDM should never pick up a sword and lolMeleeRDM. No amount of explanation, demonstration or evidence to the contrary will change their beliefs. It's because if they did stop and actually see where we're coming from their preconceived notions would go way and they'd be faced with the very real truth that they were wrong. This is an extremely uncomfortable feeling and attacks the ego, thus subconsciously their mind rejects the idea out of hand in order to protect the ego.

I've demonstrated how to do it years ago, practically wrote books on the subject. Everything from gear setups to potential sub combos for different situations, and even situations where you should not melee at all. The situations are not "end game" but rather in any situation where your available time is taxed to the limit and thus there simply isn't enough time to melee. When your cure bombing people and spamming -na magic / erase (/SCH) / dispel / with the occasional Haste / Refresh, AND running around to take care of business, then it would most likely not be wise to melee. Basically if your stuck playing a mini WHM, then it would be prudent to keep the staff on and do mage work, your keeping people alive. But if your not playing mini WHM, there is very little reason to NOT melee, they make echo's for a reason.

[Rayik]

The anti-melee crowd doesn't seem to realize, the game is going to get continual updates. Even after we hit 99, there will be more changes and more updates for as long as the game is alive. Everyone is panicking like this is the "big one"...

Let us have our Temper and Gain-STR, WS adjustments and gear. You'll get your mage-only toys soon enough.

[Rayik]

That's the thing, RDM doesn't need anything to be able to "melee in end game", they already can. It's simply looking at the problem from a different point of view. There is currently nothing keeping a RDM from meleeing other then community pressure and cognitive dissonance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

It's a really good term / theory to describe the current state of RDM in FFXI. There are many people who absolutely believe a RDM should never pick up a sword and lolMeleeRDM. No amount of explanation, demonstration or evidence to the contrary will change their beliefs. It's because if they did stop and actually see where we're coming from their preconceived notions would go way and they'd be faced with the very real truth that they were wrong. This is an extremely uncomfortable feeling and attacks the ego, thus subconsciously their mind rejects the idea out of hand in order to protect the ego.

I've demonstrated how to do it years ago, practically wrote books on the subject. Everything from gear setups to potential sub combos for different situations, and even situations where you should not melee at all. The situations are not "end game" but rather in any situation where your available time is taxed to the limit and thus there simply isn't enough time to melee. When your cure bombing people and spamming -na magic / erase (/SCH) / dispel / with the occasional Haste / Refresh, AND running around to take care of business, then it would most likely not be wise to melee. Basically if your stuck playing a mini WHM, then it would be prudent to keep the staff on and do mage work, your keeping people alive. But if your not playing mini WHM, there is very little reason to NOT melee, they make echo's for a reason.


Sounds like a lot of people rode the merit-pt gravy train and never got off. Rode that train straight to Abyssea-ville. The game is a lot bigger than a couple HNM's.

[Hyrist]

saevel Sometimes you make me want to hop to your server for a bit and see how you get it done.

Maybe I should make a mule that hops servers and takes a look at various RDMs in the game and chronicle how they play. I bet there's a different style for every one.

[Crimson_Slasher]

That could be cool, hell even a interview, screenshot, and make a cool little webpage for it, vanity shots and all.

[Hyrist]

I won't get too grandiose about it but I think it's a good idea to do once in a while. A full comparison on what each player enjoys the most about it, and how they work with the difficulties both mechanical and social, surrounding the practice.

If it goes well, might make it a regular thing.

Well, as regular as I can get anyways.

[SpankWustler]

I won't get too grandiose about it but I think it's a good idea to do once in a while. A full comparison on what each player enjoys the most about it, and how they work with the difficulties both mechanical and social, surrounding the practice.

"Well, sometimes a friend comes over while I'm playing Final Fantasy XI...I try to obscure my computer screen with my torso and tell him or her that I'm watching fetish videos of a lady in a latex clown suit smothering kittens with a pillow taped to her shoes. After that, the friend usually doesn't look at the screen closely enough to find out that I'm actually playing an MMORPG. In this way, my dorky secret remains safe."

Oh, I guess you mean social within FFXI...

[saevel]

saevel Sometimes you make me want to hop to your server for a bit and see how you get it done.

Maybe I should make a mule that hops servers and takes a look at various RDMs in the game and chronicle how they play. I bet there's a different style for every one.

Depends what your current end game affiliation / LS is. Are you in one?

Currently I'm in Avalon
http://avalon.guildwork.com/
http://www.ffxiah.com/linkshell/Lakshmi/KnightofAvalon

We're very member focused, if a member wants some piece of gear we'll find a way to get it for them. It's how I got full +2 Emp armor on most of my jobs as well as getting my Almace. Whenever a member joins they get Main / Sub jobs (LS picks main based on need, you pick sub based on desire) and then you pick an Emp weapon you want. Anyhow because we're not a H2H Blue only LS we use two PLD's as our tanking team, so our tactics are different then all the (MNK + WHM + THF ONRY) groups out there. Inside abyssea I'm almost always BLU, sometimes WAR (if we need red !!) or if we're set for jobs then I'll just come whatever. Outside abyssea is where I'm almost always RDM, usually /DRK for stun. My job outside is to support the two tanks and healer, keep the BLM's alive whenever possible, do battle raise's, Keep Slow II / Dia III on the NM, and then deal damage in whatever form is best at that time. Sometimes this involved me nuking from afar, and sometimes its me rushing in with all the other melee's and lighting a NM up. In all situations I have to judge when it's prudent to do each action and keep things moving forward. Saboteur Dia III has become a favorite for VWNM's, after white proc you have a good chunk of time and the more damage that is dealt the biggest boost you get to spectral alignment. Within one to two procs we can cap alignment in all categories and that's when the kill order is usually given, unless it's an incredibly dangerous NM.

[Hyrist]

Depends what your current end game affiliation / LS is. Are you in one?


Nothing dedicated, just a social that does events and helps with gear.

I haven't had the playtime for it to be a wise choice to get knee deep in a dedicated 'endgame' LS for quite a long time ,as my living arrangements had gone through a lot of chances over the years.

Currently I'm employed in the evenings except Friday and Saturday which are long day mornings. Kinda kills my availability.

[saevel]

Nothing dedicated, just a social that does events and helps with gear.

I haven't had the playtime for it to be a wise choice to get knee deep in a dedicated 'endgame' LS for quite a long time ,as my living arrangements had gone through a lot of chances over the years.

Currently I'm employed in the evenings except Friday and Saturday which are long day mornings. Kinda kills my availability.

I'm in a similar situation. I have a full time day, 10am to 7pm KST from mon to fri. Along with a social life to maintain, friends and a serious relationship with my GF. The real kicker for me is because I'm in South Korea, my play times are completely out of whack with the rest of the English speaking population. I abhorred "end game" for years and mostly did things with friends who were in the same TZ as me, eventually most of the quit. Thankfully Avalon is a EU mostly shell, events are at 3am my time, which if I'm careful with my sleep schedule I can make.