Relic WS still bad on the test server

[Zumi]

Well downloaded the test server, tried out my Excalibur did Knights of Round did like 700 damage. Put on my Almace did 5k damage with CdC.

I thought SE said these were getting a buff.

[Tannlore]

Well downloaded the test server, tried out my Excalibur did Knights of Round did like 700 damage. Put on my Almace did 5k damage with CdC.

I thought SE said these were getting a buff.

Might not have been implemented yet, but I certainly hope they get the buff they were meant to get. :(

[Alienmonkey]

Is you Excalibur lv95?

[Mirage]

Does it matter? Even an AH sword can do more than 700 with vorpal blade.

Or did you mean you think the relic WSes would only get good when the relic weapon is at lv95?

[Elexia]

Does it matter? Even an AH sword can do more than 700 with vorpal blade.

Or did you mean you think the relic WSes would only get good when the relic weapon is at lv95?

Probably expected it to blow out Empyreans for some reason.

[Karbuncle]

Does it matter? Even an AH sword can do more than 700 with vorpal blade.

Or did you mean you think the relic WSes would only get good when the relic weapon is at lv95?

Last time they "Buffed' Relic WS, it was only for the level 90 Versions, If they buffed it again, Its not far fetched to assume it will be for the 95 version.

Thats why it matters.

[Zumi]

The level 95 TotM quests aren't implemented yet so no.

[Karbuncle]

Then i think its a bit too soon to freak out >_>

[Mirage]

All right, I wasn't aware the earlier WS buffs were for the upgraded relics only

[Dart]

hey let us relic holders rage!

i'm sure that my catastrophe and cornstarch will still suck -_-

[DebbieGibson]

Well they said they were making them much better. But surely it will be done through magian so I don't see what the problem is.

[Reiterpallasch]

Could try a bigger sample size than ONE as well.

[Urteil]

Could try a bigger sample size than ONE as well.

-----------

Ha.

[Coldbrand]

Camlann's Torment is still ass on the test server too. Along with relic WS some of these need more than more +25% etc. The mods of these WS or what they do altogether needs to be changed. (Guttler's WS is a single hit attack for example, are you kidding? Look at the animation!)

But seriously, I just did a Camlann's with everything I could think of to max the damage. MC/VV/Apoc with all the vit attack str I could squeeze in. Drakesbane STILL outdid it significantly WITHOUT razed ruins! What the Hell!

If you aren't ignoring me can you at least just give me a /nod or something if the devs are looking into this WS Camate?

Edit: The only thing I can really think of that'd offer a big difference in damage is a TP bonus moonshade earring which I don't have yet, but that benefits Drakes too!

[DebbieGibson]

Camlann's Torment is still ass on the test server too. Along with relic WS some of these need more than more +25% etc. The mods of these WS or what they do altogether needs to be changed. (Guttler's WS is a single hit attack for example, are you kidding? Look at the animation!)

But seriously, I just did a Camlann's with everything I could think of to max the damage. MC/VV/Apoc with all the vit attack str I could squeeze in. Drakesbane STILL outdid it significantly WITHOUT razed ruins! What the Hell!

If you aren't ignoring me can you at least just give me a /nod or something if the devs are looking into this WS Camate?

Edit: The only thing I can really think of that'd offer a big difference in damage is a TP bonus moonshade earring which I don't have yet, but that benefits Drakes too!

They said they were already in that huge relic thread.

[Coldbrand]

They said they were already in that huge relic thread.

They mentioned Empyrean WS that are lacking specifically? Could you link me please? I know relic/mythic are covered, my concern is the few empyreans that need help getting left out because of ukko/smite.

[DebbieGibson]

They mentioned Empyrean WS that are lacking specifically? Could you link me please? I know relic/mythic are covered, my concern is the few empyreans that need help getting left out because of ukko/smite.

My bad, I misread. You're correct they said nothing about emp ws.

[Karbuncle]

But a while back in a "Full Break" Thread, They mentioned several WS have planned adjustments.

[Kitkat]

From what I see they haven't done anything to the Relic WS, but this is also not even mentioned as part of the testing currently taking place. Simply put: If they aren't stating it is being tested on the server don't assume it is there. There are slots for the next line of ToM on the NPC, but currently no info on what the trial is for or what has to be done.

On a side note apparently someone translated a FFXI related topic on OtBG (though finding it is easier said than done) and it states that mythics Aftermath is getting adjusted as well as a few other things, but other than that I haven't found the post or source to say anything other than that.

All we can do at this point is wait and hope there are changes coming up that we'll be able to test in the near future.

[Atomic_Skull]

They should eliminate the hidden 25% Relic WS damage multiplier on lvl 90 relics and just buff the WS directly in the following way.

All Relic WS become TP=chance to critical hit.

Aftermath duration increased to match Empyreans, and aftermath potency increased.

Change Relic WS to have the same number of hits as their animations. Generally this means 1H relic WS are 4 hit and 2H relic WS are 2 hit. Damage will balance out because 2H relics are much higher DMG than 1H relics. (special case: Knights of Round, Namas Arrow and Coronach should be 2 hits, not one hit. Their animations can be changed to reflect this)

fTP Should be unified at 3.0 for all WS.

Relic WS now have a cRatio bonus of 1.75



Changes not related to WS:

Buff extra damage proc from 5% to 20%

Take a second look at extra effects on weapons and fix those that are useless/detrimental (e.g. change Mandau's Poison additional effect to Plague)

[Kitkat]

I honestly don't think the change of TP mod to Crit chance will fix most of them to be honest. A lot of the Emp WS are just Tp=Dmg with only a few being Ignore def and the rest being crit chance. I'm not saying I don't think that the TP mods don't need to be changed, just that making them all crit chance won't really fix them.

I do agree that they should be adjusted so that the animations match the number of hits done by the WS, but this would also create a problem where the FTP would need to be lowered or the WS would be much stronger than it is. Especially if Mercy Stroke became Crit Chance TP mod. CdC was found to be 2.25fTP and with a 3 hit chance to crit it does upwards of 7.3k damage without brew and on nm's not weak to slashing nor takes more damage at specific points. Currently Mercy Stroke is rather strong, but it isn't as strong as Rudra's storm which still does 3-4k more than peak Mercy Stroke WS damage mainly due to its damage mod being Dex compared to Mercy's Str mod. So once again, a unified fTP mod isn't the answer nor is turning them all into crit chance. They shouldn't have to nerf emp to make them equal to relic either, they just need to fix the TP mod and the fTP of the relics while possibly updating the number of hits. If no change to number of hits occur then a fTP mod adjustment would be the most relevant, not a separately factored damage boost either like what 90 relics got. That didn't really fix the WS in my opinion at all.

[Dart]

They should eliminate the hidden 25% Relic WS damage multiplier on lvl 90 relics and just buff the WS directly in the following way.

All Relic WS become TP=chance to critical hit.

Aftermath duration increased to match Empyreans, and aftermath potency increased.

Change Relic WS to have the same number of hits as their animations. Generally this means 1H relic WS are 4 hit and 2H relic WS are 2 hit. Damage will balance out because 2H relics are much higher DMG than 1H relics. (special case: Knights of Round, Namas Arrow and Coronach should be 2 hits, not one hit. Their animations can be changed to reflect this)

fTP Should be unified at 3.0 for all WS.

Relic WS now have a cRatio bonus of 1.75



Changes not related to WS:

Buff extra damage proc from 5% to 20%

Take a second look at extra effects on weapons and fix those that are useless/detrimental (e.g. change Mandau's Poison additional effect to Plague)

quoted for sexiness and the truth. SE I wish you would read this post

[Atomic_Skull]

I honestly don't think the change of TP mod to Crit chance will fix most of them to be honest. A lot of the Emp WS are just Tp=Dmg with only a few being Ignore def and the rest being crit chance. I'm not saying I don't think that the TP mods don't need to be changed, just that making them all crit chance won't really fix them.

I think you just skimmed my post without actually reading it.


Ukko's Fury:

2 hits, fTP 2.0 STR_60% TP=Crit

Metatron Torment (after proposed change)

2 hits, FTP 3.0 STR_60% TP=crit cRatio*1.75

Rudra's Storm:

1 hit, fTP 3.25~5.5 DEX_60% TP=Damage

Mercy Stroke (after proposed change)

4 hits, fTP 3.0 STR_60% TP=Crit cRatio*1.75



Currently Mercy Stroke is rather strong, but it isn't as strong as Rudra's storm which still does 3-4k more than peak Mercy Stroke WS damage mainly due to its damage mod being Dex compared to Mercy's Str mod.

If you are using heca in your SATA set then the STR bonus is actually better than a DEX bonus.

[Return1]

A lot of people seem to want to pitch relic fixes without actually having relics.

The single hit nature of Relic WSs is a boon, not a shortcoming. This means we can virtually ignore accuracy altogether, adding more WSC mods. Having +1 to fTP is essentially the same as adding an extra hit as well, disregarding the extra tp per hit, it's actually better.

The +25% damage to Relic Weaponskills last upgrade was amazing and closed the gap significantly. In fact, for some noncrit WS Empyreons, the Relics are pretty even, maybe even slightly better. A nice benefit of adding a 1.25 multiplier to the end is that it boosts DA/TA/QA procs, and SE damage for DRKs, whereas a straight fTP boost wouldn't affect those.

If SE at very least adds a 1.50 multiplier Relics should catch up significantly in WS damage, but either making all WSs capable of crits or 1.75 multipliers would make Relics worth it again.

[Frost]

A lot of people seem to want to pitch relic fixes without actually having relics.

The single hit nature of Relic WSs is a boon, not a shortcoming. This means we can virtually ignore accuracy altogether, adding more WSC mods. Having +1 to fTP is essentially the same as adding an extra hit as well, disregarding the extra tp per hit, it's actually better.

The +25% damage to Relic Weaponskills last upgrade was amazing and closed the gap significantly. In fact, for some noncrit WS Empyreons, the Relics are pretty even, maybe even slightly better. A nice benefit of adding a 1.25 multiplier to the end is that it boosts DA/TA/QA procs, and SE damage for DRKs, whereas a straight fTP boost wouldn't affect those.

If SE at very least adds a 1.50 multiplier Relics should catch up significantly in WS damage, but either making all WSs capable of crits or 1.75 multipliers would make Relics worth it again.

This is assuming that relic Weaponskills actually get an accuracy bonus. From my experience... They don't. Relic Weaponskills are painfully underpowered in nearly every way... It's infuriating because we've been promised a "fix" for nearly 7+ years, and the closest we've gotten was a 25% bump to what in most cases would be considered mediocre damage to begin with.

[Atomic_Skull]

A lot of people seem to want to pitch relic fixes without actually having relics.

The single hit nature of Relic WSs is a boon, not a shortcoming. This means we can virtually ignore accuracy altogether, adding more WSC mods. Having +1 to fTP is essentially the same as adding an extra hit as well, disregarding the extra tp per hit, it's actually better.

The +25% damage to Relic Weaponskills last upgrade was amazing and closed the gap significantly. In fact, for some noncrit WS Empyreons, the Relics are pretty even, maybe even slightly better. A nice benefit of adding a 1.25 multiplier to the end is that it boosts DA/TA/QA procs, and SE damage for DRKs, whereas a straight fTP boost wouldn't affect those.

If SE at very least adds a 1.50 multiplier Relics should catch up significantly in WS damage, but either making all WSs capable of crits or 1.75 multipliers would make Relics worth it again.

The suggested 1.75 cRatio multiplier is not a direct damage multiplier, it would make the WS partially ignore level difference like Y/G/K/ Steel Cyclone, Spinning Slash etc. It is similar to (though not precisely the same as) giving the WS an attack bonus. I advocate that rather that just increasing the fTP because it wouldn't necessarily make the WS more damaging (it would do nothing on mobs that were less than T), but would make it more useful on high level mobs.

Single hit with a moderate fTP isn't much of a boon on Mercy Stroke, 9 times out of 10 you end up spamming Evisceration anyway. A 4 hit crit WS with a 3.0 fTP on the first hit would be far more useful to THF.


This is assuming that relic Weaponskills actually get an accuracy bonus. From my experience... They don't.

All physical WS have an accuracy bonus to the first hit.

[wish12oz]

Camlann's Torment is still ass on the test server too. Along with relic WS some of these need more than more +25% etc. The mods of these WS or what they do altogether needs to be changed. (Guttler's WS is a single hit attack for example, are you kidding? Look at the animation!)

But seriously, I just did a Camlann's with everything I could think of to max the damage. MC/VV/Apoc with all the vit attack str I could squeeze in. Drakesbane STILL outdid it significantly WITHOUT razed ruins! What the Hell!

If you aren't ignoring me can you at least just give me a /nod or something if the devs are looking into this WS Camate?

Edit: The only thing I can really think of that'd offer a big difference in damage is a TP bonus moonshade earring which I don't have yet, but that benefits Drakes too!

OMG lets all freak out because DRG has a very good WS that is easy to acquire!!!!

[Return1]

The suggested 1.75 cRatio multiplier is not a direct damage multiplier, it would make the WS partially ignore level difference like Y/G/K/ Steel Cyclone, Spinning Slash etc. It is similar to (though not precisely the same as) giving the WS an attack bonus. I advocate that rather that just increasing the fTP because it wouldn't necessarily make the WS more damaging (it would do nothing on mobs that were less than T), but would make it more useful on high level mobs.

Single hit with a moderate fTP isn't much of a boon on Mercy Stroke, 9 times out of 10 you end up spamming Evisceration anyway. A 4 hit crit WS with a 3.0 fTP on the first hit would be far more useful to THF..

The 1.75 I'm proposing would be a straight multiplier tacked on the end, just like the 1.25 currently is. It'd be better than a cRatio boost for most cases.

Very few WSs have a large initial hit fTP value (over 1) if they have more than 2 hits. Also, evisceration is only used when SA/TA is down in Abyssea. A multihit with a total fTP of 4.2 with all hits landing is weaker than a single hit with an fTP of 4.2 when given the same WSC, because the multihit requires far more accuracy, and thus has less WSC. SATA also makes the single hit preferable to THF and (lol)/THF.

Making all physical WSs capable of criting would fix A LOT of imbalance in this game.




And yes, as an Apoc holder I can confirm Relic WSs do get the ACC bonus on first hit, just like every physical WS in the game.

[Kitkat]

I did read what you posted, but I see you're basically doing the same thing you accuse me of. Your proposal will break relic WS more, hell Mercy would become the new evisceration and no longer even need SA which to me is very broken. Don't need another 4 hit crit dmg WS that has a 3.0 ftp on first hit. People want them to be equal, not overpowered/unbalanced.


If you are using heca in your SATA set then the STR bonus is actually better than a DEX bonus.

The Str set for Mercy is not comparable to the Dex set for Rudra's storm, but is still the best set for Mercy Stroke, that is the only point that I was making. Also, you can't say a Str Bonus is better than a Dex Bonus for base SA/TA either as that is inaccurate when looking at the individual functions of the abilities. However, this is not a thf discussion thread it is a relic weapon thread so I won't go any further off topic than that.

[Return1]

I did read what you posted, but I see you're basically doing the same thing you accuse me of. Your proposal will break relic WS more, hell Mercy would become the new evisceration and no longer even need SA which to me is very broken. Don't need another 4 hit crit dmg WS that has a 3.0 ftp on first hit. People want them to be equal, not overpowered/unbalanced.


What? MC should be equal to Evisceration? Where's the first 4 hit WS with a starting 3.0 fTP? What are you talking about?

Relics should be THE STRONGEST ONE THERE IS! SE also said they planned to make Relics the strongest, Mythics focus on Job Specific boosts, and Empyreans the easymode alternative to Relics and thus a bit less powerful. That's how it should be too from an effort and reward stand point.

[Karbuncle]

Dunno, They said they planned on Balancing the Difficulty of the weapons so in the end its all about the same effort.

Apparently the level 95 trial for Empyreans requires you to obtain 1,500 of some new item. Easy mode for Empyreans has been turned off.

Edit:


Empyreans:
- 1500x plates of heavy metal

[Return1]

Not true, if it's as easy to get these plates as it is to find geodes or currencies, Empyreans are still a fucking joke to make.

[uptempo]

How do you know they won't come in pouch's like alex you have no idea if easy mode has been turned of yet unless im missing something.

[Karbuncle]

Not true, if it's as easy to get these plates as it is to find geodes or currencies, Empyreans are still a fucking joke to make.

We won't know until the update comes. Something tells me its not going to be easy though. I'm really thinking "Random Drop from Voidwatch Pyxides from specific NMs". The only saving grace would be if they're purchasable like ABC's and Dynamis Currency.

Edit: But Hey, Keep your hopes up that it'll continue to be easy mode. Don't let me crush your optimism.

[uptempo]

Hell for all we know you might be able to buy the heavy plates.

Edit//

Seen you also said that in your other post.

[Kitkat]

What? MC should be equal to Evisceration? Where's the first 4 hit WS with a starting 3.0 fTP? What are you talking about?

Relics should be THE STRONGEST ONE THERE IS! SE also said they planned to make Relics the strongest, Mythics focus on Job Specific boosts, and Empyreans the easymode alternative to Relics and thus a bit less powerful. That's how it should be too from an effort and reward stand point.


Way to misunderstand then jump all over my case when I was talking to atomic_skull. Didn't even mention anything related to your post prior to mine either. I am not disputing that Relic should be stronger, I am disputing the fact that turning it into another evisceration-type WS with a 3.0ftp is unbalanced/overpowered. The ws should be boosted yes, but it should not be changed in such a way that it unbalances the jobs that can use it. That is stupid.

So as far as I'm concerned, as a relic owner also, the biggest help to the weapon would be a higher boost latch-on, or a TP=Dmg mod+Slightly higher boost latch on, a alteration of the hidden to proc more often (10~15%), and the possibility that when offhanded the visible stats actually work like every other weapon with latched on stats in offhand. Turning it into Crit Chance fixes imbalance between emp and relic, but at the same time would become unbalanced without a fTP change considering some of the jobs that can use the weapons also especially if they fix it to make strikes = animation shown. Can't have your cake and eat it too..SE is known for this.

[Alhanelem]

They should eliminate the hidden 25% Relic WS damage multiplier on lvl 90 relics and just buff the WS directly in the following way.

All Relic WS become TP=chance to critical hit.

Aftermath duration increased to match Empyreans, and aftermath potency increased.

Change Relic WS to have the same number of hits as their animations. Generally this means 1H relic WS are 4 hit and 2H relic WS are 2 hit. Damage will balance out because 2H relics are much higher DMG than 1H relics. (special case: Knights of Round, Namas Arrow and Coronach should be 2 hits, not one hit. Their animations can be changed to reflect this)

fTP Should be unified at 3.0 for all WS.

Relic WS now have a cRatio bonus of 1.75



Changes not related to WS:

Buff extra damage proc from 5% to 20%

Take a second look at extra effects on weapons and fix those that are useless/detrimental (e.g. change Mandau's Poison additional effect to Plague)
Why not take this a step further and just give every job a weapon skill "delivers an 8fold attack, crit varies with TP"?

[Sama]

How do you know they won't come in pouch's like alex you have no idea if easy mode has been turned of yet unless im missing something.

Abyssea made FFXI shines again because everything is easy. Thus I don't think that's gonna happen; if the lvl95 upgrade goes like alex then people will leave the game.

At least i'm hoping it's not going to be like that...

[Return1]

1500 alexandrite is now a joke.

The only reason people quit alex before is because Salvage was such an abysmal failure when it first came out, and 30,000 alex was needed.

1500 Currency/ABC/Alexandrite type item would be an easier trial than most 90 trials were.

[Atomic_Skull]

Also, evisceration is only used when SA/TA is down in Abyssea.

As a Mandau THF I can tell you from personal experience that Evisceration is used almost full time because the mob spins like a top making SATA more likely than not to miss.

And nobody gives a damn about making the mob point in a particular direction for SATa anyway because it's not worth wasting time on when you have a couple MNKs doing the hundred crack fist of the north star on the mob.


I did read what you posted, but I see you're basically doing the same thing you accuse me of. Your proposal will break relic WS more, hell Mercy would become the new evisceration and no longer even need SA which to me is very broken. Don't need another 4 hit crit dmg WS that has a 3.0 ftp on first hit. People want them to be equal, not overpowered/unbalanced.

Why should a weapon that takes years to upgrade be merely equal to a weapon that takes a few weeks?

More broken than Ukko's or Victory Smite? I find that hard to believe.

Even if being able to do good damage without SATA is "broken", (which I don't believe to be true), it is a Relic not an Empyrean, it not like we're going to see thousands of them flooding the servers like we have with emps. They are much, much more difficult to obtain.

[Alhanelem]

The only reason people quit alex before is because Salvage was such an abysmal failureAbyssmal faliure? how do you figure? Lots of people did salvage and got gear that was, at the time, some of the best for at least one of the jobs in each set.

[Atomic_Skull]

Why not take this a step further and just give every job a weapon skill "delivers an 8fold attack, crit varies with TP"?

As long as the quest to unlock it is commesurate with the Relic weapon upgrade quests I don't see why not.

[Return1]

Abyssmal faliure? how do you figure? Lots of people did salvage and got gear that was, at the time, some of the best for at least one of the jobs in each set.

Shortly after the buzz from Salvage's release, most salvage groups died off. The Reward to effort ratio was awful. Seeing numbers like 1/256, 1/560/ 1/130, 1/300 as commonplace for some 35s, and the fact that some dropped from some mobs that might not even spawn, on paths that required you to sacrifice shots at gear for other, people quit in droves, the loot system was a total failure. It was the worst loot system in the entire game.

Then the 0-5 Alexandrite a run? Yeah, fuck that. SE knew they fucked up big, they expected a lot more people to be doing salvage and the small amount of alex from each group to create a large Alexandrite pool. Pre-pouching and drop rate boost, a mythic would have taken 20 years if all the salvage groups, that survived longer than a month, on my server did salvage every day and combined all their alex together.

I wouldn't be surprised if more Salvage gear came post mog bonanza and certainly post drop rate update when the system became MUCH better.

[Coldbrand]

OMG lets all freak out because DRG has a very good WS that is easy to acquire!!!!

Or how about I'm in the middle of busting my ass to finish Rhongomiant and I want to use Camlann's Torment when I'm done with it? You can be such an ignoramus sometimes that it's almost impressive in a deranged sort of way. At least your signature no longer breaks the forum borders to make you stand out as much.

When you finish any relic/mythic/empyrean weapon, that should be the WS that's optimal to use with that weapon. I don't think that's a particularly disagreeable statement.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Camlann's > Drakes > Light, there you get to use your WS.

[Leonlionheart]

Shortly after the buzz from Salvage's release, most salvage groups died off. The Reward to effort ratio was awful. Seeing numbers like 1/256, 1/560/ 1/130, 1/300 as commonplace for some 35s, and the fact that some dropped from some mobs that might not even spawn, on paths that required you to sacrifice shots at gear for other, people quit in droves, the loot system was a total failure. It was the worst loot system in the entire game.

Then the 0-5 Alexandrite a run? Yeah, fuck that. SE knew they fucked up big, they expected a lot more people to be doing salvage and the small amount of alex from each group to create a large Alexandrite pool. Pre-pouching and drop rate boost, a mythic would have taken 20 years if all the salvage groups, that survived longer than a month, on my server did salvage every day and combined all their alex together.

I wouldn't be surprised if more Salvage gear came post mog bonanza and certainly post drop rate update when the system became MUCH better.

There are a ton of Mythic builders now compared to then. Gil is easier, Salvage is easier, there's no reason for the diehards not to get them at this point. If you can complete the other requirements, you can get the alexandrite.

Drop rates increased pretty well in Salvage now; I do it often and enjoy it very much.

[Alhanelem]

I persoanlly found salvage to be one of the more fun events from a gameplay standpoint at the time.