Draw in for PLD?

[GlobalVariable]

I had an ability idea for paladin. An ability that is similar to the move certain enemies use on us: Draw In. Yank the enemy to the paladin and reduce everyone's hate by an amount EXCEPT the paladin. Everyone else loses some, paladin gains some.

This would be really fun the next time a certain blu rips hate off me and runs around like a chicken with her head cut off. *YANK* my mob! You can't have it!

Note this wasn't meant as a "how to fix pld" thread, I just thought it'd be cool. Thoughts?

I kind of wish I hadn't used the language "like draw in". It kind of implies depop-repop at this position and I think a kind of reverse knockback is a better mechanic and was how I imagined it. And it was all about the hate steal not crowd control and draw in was usually nailing the whole group.

[JagerForrester]

"I'm the protector, you should fight me!" *Gank!
Yeah, I like it. I wouldn't even mind giving the paladin just an "emnity absorb" ability such as that.

[Martel]

I'd love this. Particularly if it could be used on multiple enemies. But unlike mob draw in, I'd like it if it put them a few yalms in front of me rather than directly on top of me. Getting large amounts of mobs to stay in front of me, where I can shield block, can be a pain in the ass.

[Lordstygian]

seems like cool ideal

[Erador]

I think it's pretty fantastic. I say they should go for it =P

[GlobalVariable]

I don't think multiple targets at once would work very well and SE would be less likely to implement it as an AoE. The mobs would immediately try to rearrange themselves the same way they do if I pull a bunch, more than a few makes them wander all over each other. This also acts as a mini voke and lowers party members hate in my original idea (a partial not full but nevertheless a hate wipe), I can't see them doing that for more than a single claimed target for us.

Lets stick to single target grabbage and if it goes well we can try and talk them into a 2nd tier/AoE later.

[Martel]

It's that very same random running around that I'd want to use this to prevent. It's quite possible to get massive(15~) numbers of mobs to stand all in one little pile in front of you. But its hard to do, and you usually have drag them along a wall or terrain feature of some sort that they can't move on top of.

If the Draw in put them all in exactly the same spot, in melee range of me, I'm not sure they'd need to move at all. If things did work out like that, it would make mass pulling and AoE burning a lot simpler. Although.. that'd be one ungodly pile of chests.... <,<;

Now, as much as I'd like this, AoE or not, I think it's very unlikely that SE will give us anything that allows us to directly move a mob. It's potential for abuse is just so high.

Although a lot of that depends on its recast. If you can spam it, then you could just keep pulling the mob away from the players with hate while they ranged/nuke DD, effectively "draw-in kiting".

If you can't spam it, it's use becomes pretty limited. Sure you can pull a mob away from someone for a second, but its just gonna go after then again. Those few seconds might save then, or it might kill them as soon as it reaches them again. The attached mini-voke might keep the mob on you, but if you couldn't get hate in the first place I doubt that's going to make the difference. Which makes it about as useful as cover. Maybe a bit more since it wouldn't matter who had hate(so you don't waste the recast only to have hate shift seconds later...), or if they were in your party.

I have a few thoughts on balancing draw-in for player use... but I need to think em over some more. They'd still cause issues I don't think SE would like much.

So, it'd be fun to have, but the difficulty in balancing its usefulness with its potential for abuse makes it unlikely that we'll get any form of draw-in.(Prove me wrong SE! <,<)

[GlobalVariable]

Been my experiance the little sobs won't stop trying to separate even if it means going up walls or strafing me for 10 minutes straight. If its 2-5 they try to line up side by side, more than that they tend more and more to re-overlap and then re-adjust over and over. Bad luck?

I doubt something like this would have a short enough recast for abuse.
Sure you can pull a mob away from someone for a second, but its just gonna go after then again.Did you miss the part about lowering the other persons hate? Pretty useless to move mob without that yeah, since the other person would still have all of their hate and it would run right back.

I kind of wish I hadn't used the language "like draw in". It kind of implies depop-repop at this position and I think a kind of reverse knockback is a better mechanic and was how I imagined it. And it was all about the hate steal not crowd control and draw was usually nailing the whole group. So I really opened a can of worms huh.

[Martel]

Been my experiance the little sobs won't stop trying to separate even if it means going up walls or strafing me for 10 minutes straight. If its 2-5 they try to line up side by side, more than that they tend more and more to re-overlap and then re-adjust over and over. Bad luck?

I've had reasonable success at getting them all to stay put by slowly dragging them along a wall(or other impassable obstacle) and watching for when they settle. But the more mobs you get the harder that is.


I doubt something like this would have a short enough recast for abuse.

I did mention that the recast would be one of the limiting factors. But increasing the recast also decreases the ability's usefulness.While an ability of this sort would be cool, I'd prefer they implement it in a manner that actually makes it useful.


Did you miss the part about lowering the other persons hate?

I did address that, briefly.

"The attached mini-voke might keep the mob on you, but if you couldn't get hate in the first place I doubt that's going to make the difference."

However I thought you'd described the the CE reducing attribute as a mini-voke, implying that it was a rather small reduction. And considering the massive chunks of enmity a single good WS can yield, a small reduction would be recovered very quickly indeed.

Looking again, I see you said a mini-voke AND enmity reduction, meaning a small increase for the pld, and a reduction of an unspecified amount to others. My apologies, I combined the two.

If the CE reduction for others is of a respectable amount(25%~
perhaps?) then this could buy you a reasonable amount of time even at capped hate situations.


I kind of wish I hadn't used the language "like draw in". It kind of implies depop-repop at this position and I think a kind of reverse knockback is a better mechanic and was how I imagined it.

Hmm, yeah. I like that better too. A depop-repop would cause all kinds of problems. everyone loses target, gets force-disengaged and just generally pissed off. Just dragging the mob to you is a much better idea.


And it was all about the hate steal not crowd control and draw was usually nailing the whole group.

Yes, I seem to have rather spectacularly missed the point there. The thread title was about draw-in, and that's the aspect of this I found the most interesting. So I focused a bit too much on that, I think.


So I really opened a can of worms huh.

I don't think you did. You gave me something interesting to think about and I posted my thoughts on that. Thanks for giving me something to fill a bit of this FFXI bereft void with. <,<; If I sounded offended, accusing, angry, or anything of that sort, I apologize. That wasn't my intent.

[GlobalVariable]

If the CE reduction for others is of a respectable amount(25%~
perhaps?) then this could buy you a reasonable amount of time even at capped hate situations.
That's along the lines of what I was thinking. % or a fraction, possibly the pld's increase in relation to their decrease rather than a fixed amount; I figured if SE liked the idea of it they'd make the hate changes worthwhile.

There is one other major thing to prevent this happening. There may be programing reason behind tractor using a depop-repop mechanic like draw in, which I've wanted them to change for years. It may be that such an effect is simply to difficult to be worth the needed code and why tractor works the way it does.


I don't think you did. You gave me something interesting to think about and I posted my thoughts on that. Thanks for giving me something to fill a bit of this FFXI bereft void with. <,<; If I sounded offended, accusing, angry, or anything of that sort, I apologize. That wasn't my intent.I kind of thought I wasn't communicating well / made it sound to different from what I actually meant.

Pardon my million edits, I can't seem to type today @.@

[Martel]

If draw-in, or dragging the mob to you, is too difficult to program for, perhaps they could just tell the mob that you're on top of the hate list and have it run to you. Preferably in front of you. <,<

[lathos]

pld voke should hold hate better it really sux that u can voke the dam thing every 30 secs and cure 40 times and still have the hate bounce around llike that this sounds like a good ability give us a way to do what were sposed to even if a blm cast whatever spell i should be able to hold hate regardless as a pld aka true tank

[JagerForrester]

Yeah, maybe PLD's should have an innate Provoke ability plus the "emnity absorb" ability I threw out there. (Absorbs emnity from the party like Blood Saber absorbs HP from enemies). It would get us away from subbing /WAR just for Provoke and allow us more combinations to play around with and still keep us as the dominate tank job, like a real dual-wielding PLD tank or a GSD/Staff PLD/SAM tank.

[Neisan_Quetz]

pld voke should hold hate better it really sux that u can voke the dam thing every 30 secs and cure 40 times and still have the hate bounce around llike that this sounds like a good ability give us a way to do what were sposed to even if a blm cast whatever spell i should be able to hold hate regardless as a pld aka true tank

VE from Voke decays until after 30 seconds you're pretty much back to where you started.


If draw-in, or dragging the mob to you, is too difficult to program for, perhaps they could just tell the mob that you're on top of the hate list and have it run to you. Preferably in front of you. <,<

It's not like I don't know, this doesn't happen already...

[Judge]

actual "draw in" reset your characters map position.

In the same way players can do it w/o much effort from SE.
Anyone who has ever goofed off in palborough mines knows this.
You can make an insanely large train and run to the elevator. once you activate the elevator the game draws all monster directly to you and directly on top of eachother. looks as if it is only one monster sometimes. being able to do this would definalty help with shield blocking lol but unlikely SE would add something like this.

Imagine the "i dont leave this room" NM's ppl could drag around. Faffy for example.

[Doombringer]

cool idea, kinda makes me wonder why pld doesn't have something like this already.. that being said i agree that the ability to just move mobs at will might be a bit broken.. remember that first av kill? would be pretty easy to do stuff like that with a pld teleporting mobs to the other side of walls and what have you.

why not, instead... some kind of guaranteed attention grabber.. that works outside of the enmity system. kinda like how provoke works in PvP. hate doesn't matter, you're targeting the guy that provoked you. so for whatever duration, that mob is forced after the pld. gives time to regain normal enmity, and prevents the "don't run, you'll just die tired" situations.

[Evilvivi]

Doing damage is a guaranteed attention grabber.

[GlobalVariable]

Just like before, posts assuming it would work like mob draw in. I should never have used the words "draw in" in the OP or thread title people are just going to keep assuming you can spam or drag mobs through walls etc...And yes we all know doing damage creates better hate go compete with a self skillchain for upwards of 8k damage and tell me pld can compete on DD'ing for hate. Pld needs another tool to perform its function (hate control) in the presence of party member who flat out cap their hate.

[Greatguardian]

It doesn't matter if PLD can compete with the damage a real DD deals, as long as PLD can deal enough damage to cap its own hate then they're both at capped hate. Pretty much anyone can get capped hate in Abyssea by blinking if they want to. Even Outside, as the content there is level 75, it's not very difficult.

[GlobalVariable]

as long as PLD can deal enough damage to cap its own hate then they're both at capped hate When a DD caps hate PLD becomes useless becau- *stops explaining*

You know what? By explaining this I'm getting off my own topic, the JA was never a "how to fix pld" (though I did intend it to be useful) but quips about damage for hate are bringing up paladins damage potential. Listen, I don't care if someones idea of fixing pld is making it do more damage, or if they think pld is fine as is. This isn't the thread for it. Please, just leave it out of here guys. In fact it'd be nice if you'd let the thread die, I did a crappy job explaining it anyway.