Temper info

[Insaniac]

Forgot to write a lot of the exact info down but:

MP cost - 36
Duration - 3 minutes
DA rate - +5% (lol)

[Rayik]

5%?

Damn.

[cidbahamut]

Links to testing?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Links to testing?

I doubt enough proper tests could be done this quickly, though I do know it is lower than the Joyeuse.

[Swords]

Even 10-20% would be welcomed, though I do hope it's higher than that.

[Seriha]

I have somewhere between 5-10% manually counting hits per attack round. I'm erring toward the lower end, which is unfortunate, but could also see SE treating this like Haste Samba and having a T3 merit add 1-2% per level. Still think the default should be 10% minimum. Those bawwhawwing about useless won't be too far off the mark if it does indeed remain 5%.

[Insaniac]

I have no link to testing because my test materials were a notebook and a pen. I can tell you though that in 512 total attack rounds I DAed 27 times which comes out to 5.27% and yes I was paying very close attention. I promise it's ~5%.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I have no link to testing because my test materials were a notebook and a pen. I can tell you though that in 512 total attack rounds I DAed 27 times which comes out to 5.27% and yes I was paying very close attention. I promise it's ~5%.

Sounds about right to me as well... Personally in my view it's a waste of a spell slot as it stands. I was hoping due to the self-target only it might have actually been worth while... Guess it's best not to get your hopes up.

[Insaniac]

The funniest thing to me is that if you don't use composure with this (I don't know why you wouldn't but just saying) you probably lose as many swings casting the spell as you would gain over the 3 minute duration lol.

[Hashmalum]

So does it stack with enspells?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

So does it stack with enspells?

It appears to.

[Insaniac]

Yes, it does.

[Hyrist]

So, we get a brutal earring, in spell form.

SE needs to stop being afraid of giving more substantial melee buff spells. I understand they're trying to balance it out with everything else we have, but the minimalism is getting a bit too touch and go.

10% would have been acceptable, as that's a native Double Attack trait, but at this rate I'm expecting the developers to go one step WORSE and try to add the remaining 5 into some sort of merit.

Something that's costing us MP and cast time to maintain needs to be more powerful than what's being experienced.

With it not conflicting with Enspells, I can see 10-15%.

If they switch it to to Conflicting with enspells, no lower than 20-25%

[Luces]

Is it Occasionally attacks twice, which is what the spell says, or is it double atk? because the blu phalanx isn't what we as players would normally call a phalanx and it changes the aspect of this spell.

[Insaniac]

Is it Occasionally attacks twice, which is what the spell says, or is it double atk? because the blu phalanx isn't what we as players would normally call a phalanx and it changes the aspect of this spell.That I do not know. I'm not willing to do a sample large enough to prove that one either way.

[Seriha]

I thought I had a Flat Blade DA with no other DA gear on based on TP return, but that might've been me getting hit at the same time I WSed. Bit disappointed with my initial findings, so have been focusing more on the main game for now since I have stuff I can do there.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Is it Occasionally attacks twice, which is what the spell says, or is it double atk? because the blu phalanx isn't what we as players would normally call a phalanx and it changes the aspect of this spell.

That is really disappointing too that BLU would get a better Phalanx spell than RDM who were to first to learn it.

Also I think they should change the text pure damage taken % is not really like a phalanx effect at all.

[saevel]

Well it's called a test server for a reason. Seeing as it's not final yet you might want to send feedback to SE about the potency of Temper.

[Swords]

Aye I thought the whole point of the test server (besides the free bug-testing labor) was to give SE a look on the players perspective on how players would use abilities and spells and receive input on peoples thoughts so they could tweak it.

[Supersun]

This makes me think that Temper might scale up with enhancing gear.

I'd understand the 5% base rate if it was expected to climb at a reasonable pace.

[saevel]

Yes but at what enhancing magic was that 5% cast at? This is why more info is needed other then "guys I did testing and its' only 5%". And is it on-cast or on-hit potency?

So yeah, more info needed but the base rate seems to suck currently.

[Bubeeky]

he already said that the test server automatically caps enhancing magic

[saevel]

he already said that the test server automatically caps enhancing magic
That's not what I was talking about, please learn to read. I assumed all skills were capped for that particular level, but was any additional +enh gear used. We have 60+ enhancing skill available through gear, thus potency scaling can be tested through this method.

[Merton9999]

Sounds like Temper is going the route of SCH's Libra, Animus and Adloquium - new abilities that sound good in concept but are so low in potency that they're barely worth the MP and casting time.

My biggest disappointment with both of these jobs 76-90 is that the levels have been filled with soooo much fluff. I really hope the test server allows some of these things to grow for the better before update time.

So waiting to hear that Spontaneity is a 2% casting time reduction...

[saevel]

Remember this isn't out yet, its on a test server meaning it's still in development. Right ~NOW~ is the time to mention anything you want changed with it, once it goes live SE will be rather reluctant to change it (not saying they wont, but it's easier to change before it goes live then after).

So I say again, if you think Temper is too low then right now make requests for it to be stronger, both in the feedback forum and here in the RDM forum. I've already made a post about it, make your own or add to that one. If SE dev's see enough feedback they'll look into it. Just remember to be nice and constructive, no flaming or snide comments.

[Shiyo]

Blu gets curaga4, doom, phalanx, we get 3-5% DA

np guys

[Shiyo]

Remember this isn't out yet, its on a test server meaning it's still in development. Right ~NOW~ is the time to mention anything you want changed with it, once it goes live SE will be rather reluctant to change it (not saying they wont, but it's easier to change before it goes live then after).

So I say again, if you think Temper is too low then right now make requests for it to be stronger, both in the feedback forum and here in the RDM forum. I've already made a post about it, make your own or add to that one. If SE dev's see enough feedback they'll look into it. Just remember to be nice and constructive, no flaming or snide comments.

Feedback? Remove temper, add an actual useful spell that will be used for things that matter, like a new enfeeble that has high macc/lands on most things or a new JT that enhances the macc of our enfeebles to land on almost anything :/

[Swords]

We do, but seldom do mod's act unless people report them. And while yes there are some trolls on this forum, most at least can put up a decent conversation that is remotely constructive weather or not they agree or disagree with the subject in question.

[Pharaun]

Just curious as to why you think Shiyo is flaming and trolling? I don't see them specifically attacking any poster so they can't be flaming, and they are stating an opinion of what they feel the Rdm job needs, so I don't see that as being particularly troll worthy. You may not agree with the opinion, but it's far, far away from trolling. And quite frankly I think Shiyo is right, Rdm needs something that will actually benefit what they do in party situations i.e. a buff to their enhancing/enfeebling capability, not just something to help them swing their sword more against trash mobs.

[Miitan]

Yo dawg.

We heard you like trolling, so we put a troll inside your troll so you can troll while you're trolling.

[Seriha]

It's one thing to want caster buffs, it's another to blanketly assume the melee camp is dumb as well as any idea toward helping it. Note that she wants to take Temper away to replace it with her ideal and not even attempt to compromise. If the intent is to instigate a negative reaction, mission accomplished.

[Shiyo]

Temper is so weak, and RDM melee is so weak, that the ability might as well not exist. I want them to not waste dev time, or any time at all looking at peoples feedback/editing the spell/etc and instead scrap it entirely and give us something useful.

Also, yeah, tons of trolling/flaming from me clearly :/

[Miitan]

It's one thing to want caster buffs, it's another to blanketly assume the melee camp is dumb as well as any idea toward helping it. Note that she wants to take Temper away to replace it with her ideal and not even attempt to compromise. If the intent is to instigate a negative reaction, mission accomplished.

The thing is, the people in the melee camp aren't 'dumb' as people, but the idea of a melee rdm is dumb as the game currently stands and giving a spell that gives a whopping 5% DA is not helping matters.

Unless they made Temper a 30% activation rate and made it stack with en-spells, rdm melee will still be lol. And no, that wouldn't be 'overpowered', it'd be the minimum as there's such a gap to bridge between a normal melee and a rdm, you'd need something drastic.

[saevel]

Just curious as to why you think Shiyo is flaming and trolling? I don't see them specifically attacking any poster so they can't be flaming, and they are stating an opinion of what they feel the Rdm job needs, so I don't see that as being particularly troll worthy. You may not agree with the opinion, but it's far, far away from trolling. And quite frankly I think Shiyo is right, Rdm needs something that will actually benefit what they do in party situations i.e. a buff to their enhancing/enfeebling capability, not just something to help them swing their sword more against trash mobs.

Which is why you think she's not at troll, she's agreeing with you.

Just read over every one of her posts, their abrasive, rude, antagonistic and in every way the definition of a flamebait troll. She comes on here with the single intention of stiring up sh!t and thus I've put her on the ignore list. If all the people would stop replying to her troll posts then she's fade away.

Now we could get into this protracted debate about pro / con and what not, but you have zero intention of listening or taking anyone else seriously, thus I'll just cut to the end. You desire RDM to never melee and thus would rename the job to "SCH", "WHM-2" or "BLM-2" which is what it basically becomes once your remove the melee aspect. I don't care if it helps you get your DRG / PUP / DRK / SAM Emperion weapon / armor faster, of if it allows you to skip the WHM and just grab a RDM instead for whatever even your trying to put together.

There is a component of the job's design that is neglected / underused, both the RDM player base and SE desire enhance this underused aspect. We don't care if everyone else just wants us to haste them faster.

[Seriha]

The thing is, the people in the melee camp aren't 'dumb' as people, but the idea of a melee rdm is dumb as the game currently stands and giving a spell that gives a whopping 5% DA is not helping matters.

Unless they made Temper a 30% activation rate and made it stack with en-spells, rdm melee will still be lol. And no, that wouldn't be 'overpowered', it'd be the minimum as there's such a gap to bridge between a normal melee and a rdm, you'd need something drastic.

On the whole, we don't expect the spell alone to be the solution to all of the job's martial woes, but as a step in the right direction, it still needs a bit of improvement.

The cumulative equivalent of, "GO PLAY BLU CUZ MELEE RDM SUX!" is not at all constructive, and especially short-sighted when rooted in the belief that a game of numbers can't be tweaked through spells, JAs, and equipment to yield a desired result.

[saevel]

The thing is, the people in the melee camp aren't 'dumb' as people, but the idea of a melee rdm is dumb as the game currently stands and giving a spell that gives a whopping 5% DA is not helping matters.

Unless they made Temper a 30% activation rate and made it stack with en-spells, rdm melee will still be lol. And no, that wouldn't be 'overpowered', it'd be the minimum as there's such a gap to bridge between a normal melee and a rdm, you'd need something drastic.

Then do you want it fixed or not? Decide already because right now there is a very real group of people who do not want it fixed and instead would jump with joy if RDM's Sword / Dagger skill were set to 0. They don't play RDM, have no intention to ever actually use the job and want a return to the days when they can skip out on WHM's and just throw in a RDM instead for their main healer. This talk of melee makes them worried, they were hoping post abyssea that they would get back one of their main healers instead of being forced to use WHM's. It also makes the BLU's worried because as it stands their the games #2 best healers right now, and very soon I can see them start to be forced into a healing role. I can very well see a LS leader telling one of their players "go change to BLU/WHM we need you to heal the DD's, and don't swing that damn sword we need you healing not lol-melee-blu". As the LS leader isn't a BLU nor does he care about the other players it means nothing to him to do this.

Put another way, there is a chronic lack of healers in this game. Now I'm not talking healing jobs, but players who want to actually heal. Everyone wants to melee, nuke, use JA's / abilities and be engaged in the fight, nobody wants to Cure V, Haste, Cure IV, haste, Erase, Cure V, for the entire fight. So now you have leaders and organizes looking to force whomever they can into being the main healer of a party. This isn't speculation its just a condition all MMO's get into eventually.

[Shiyo]

Why? Melee RDM's scream they don't want to heal, scream they don't want to manage buff cycles, and just want to autoattack mobs and randomly spam enfeebles(i doubt they even do this). They should go to the link I posted. They're obviously playing the WRONG job.

[Pharaun]

Which is why you think she's not at troll, she's agreeing with you.

Just read over every one of her posts, their abrasive, rude, antagonistic and in every way the definition of a flamebait troll. She comes on here with the single intention of stiring up sh!t and thus I've put her on the ignore list. If all the people would stop replying to her troll posts then she's fade away.

Now we could get into this protracted debate about pro / con and what not, but you have zero intention of listening or taking anyone else seriously, thus I'll just cut to the end. You desire RDM to never melee and thus would rename the job to "SCH", "WHM-2" or "BLM-2" which is what it basically becomes once your remove the melee aspect. I don't care if it helps you get your DRG / PUP / DRK / SAM Emperion weapon / armor faster, of if it allows you to skip the WHM and just grab a RDM instead for whatever even your trying to put together.

There is a component of the job's design that is neglected / underused, both the RDM player base and SE desire enhance this underused aspect. We don't care if everyone else just wants us to haste them faster.

And here is why I can't take you seriously, just because someone disagrees with you does not automatically make them a troll. The word troll gets thrown around so much on these forums that I am positive that they don't understand what a real troll is.

It's nice to see that you make a lot of assumptions about me, as far as I can remember I haven't weighed in on the rdm melee debate until today. Honestly I would like for Temper to be a worthwhile spell, and by worthwhile I feel it should be a 10-15% rate and castable on party members, but SE is so afraid of making Rdm any stronger than it already is that they won't give the job any significant buff. Of course you will now call me a troll and put me on the block list as well, so whatever.

edit* Although I will admit that Shiyo's post right below yours if fairly trollish.

[Shiyo]

Temper being castable on party members with 10-15% rate would be incredible :(

[saevel]

And here is why I can't take you seriously, just because someone disagrees with you does not automatically make them a troll. The word troll gets thrown around so much on these forums that I am positive that they don't understand what a real troll is.

It's nice to see that you make a lot of assumptions about me, as far as I can remember I haven't weighed in on the rdm melee debate until today. Honestly I would like for Temper to be a worthwhile spell, and by worthwhile I feel it should be a 10-15% rate and castable on party members, but SE is so afraid of making Rdm any stronger than it already is that they won't give the job any significant buff. Of course you will now call me a troll and put me on the block list as well, so whatever.

edit* Although I will admit that Shiyo's post right below yours if fairly trollish.

Don't need to make any assumptions, you stated your intentions rather plainly. You don't see Temper as a buff to RDM melee capabilities and instead see it as a buff to your other jobs.

What you just said combined with

And quite frankly I think Shiyo is right, Rdm needs something that will actually benefit what they do in party situations i.e. a buff to their enhancing/enfeebling capability, not just something to help them swing their sword more against trash mobs.

Makes your position on motives quite clear.

You fit into the "couldn't care less if RDM got 0 sword / dagger skill" camp. You don't see RDM's swinging a sword as viable and would prefer it if you never saw a RDM melee again.

I've been doing this for 8+ years now, been in this debate for most of that time. There isn't a single argument you can bring forth that hasn't been brought forth before. I know every counter point your going to make and have debunked them all years ago. Everything from TP feeding to damage taken to needing staves even down to the "RDM isn't a DD" which is the fallback agreement that is always used. Which is itself a catch-22, RDM isn't accepted on the front lines and therefor shouldn't get any buffs to put it on the front lines (the argument against being the cause for the argument for).

That all being said you haven't done anything troll worthy yet. Shi first post into the RDM forums were troll flamebait troll posts.

[FrankReynolds]

Agreed. Saevel you are in fact the one who trolled this thread and turned it into an argument about.........trolling. I agree with Shiyo somewhat. I would rather see buffs to current enfeebles, and additions of new ones. I don't really see much utility in this spell for groups, and I don't really want to have to play red mage just like blu. It would be nice if it did a little more for solo play, but honestly I would rather they concentrated on something that is more needed.

[Duelle]

Not really. Saev doesn't randomly post in threads trying to provoke people who are posting on topic.

I've lent my support to the buff Temper thread, and I will lend that same support here. Don't know if anyone has made a bug report on the spell, under the hopes that the spell is bugged and is supposed to scale with enhancing magic skill.

[Jhanaka]

Hello Everyone!

Let's try to get this thread back on topic. While we encourage free throught and opinion, we encourage everyone to follow the Forum Rules and Policies and help keep the threads free of derailment.

Thank you for your understanding!

SGM Jhanaka

[Wolfandre]

If the healers are doing their jobs correctly, TP feeding won't be an issue. Give the RDMs a melee buff or two and let em go to town with a sword or two. Make em enfeeble and toss a cure or nuke around every now and then. I guarantee every RDM will be happy with this solution. It really saddens me that about 95% of RDMs impressive spell list goes unused because of their forced role in party. Temper could really open this up by sliding RDM into an all-around role; can do everything, but just not as good as everyone else who does those things specifically. If Temper is upped to around 25%, let's say, if you slap on /nin and an En-spell, you're dealing quite a bit of damage. Not as good as the jobs that have A+'s and attack stat out the wazoo, but enough to be noticable. All the while, the RDM could help out the WHM if needed, play on an elemental weakness with the BLM, enfeeble (their forte) or toss out a buff or two.

This, as I see it, was the original vision for RDM and it alllllll went downhill when someone found Refresh on a Taisai. Can we go back to this please? I mean, it's how the job was fleshed out in previous Final Fantasy games. BLM always kept it's role. As did WHM, BLU, WAR, DRG, etc. Why can't RDM?

Motion: Increase temper from ~5% static to scale with enhancing magic skill OR a ~20-25% static, ensuring that it adds Double Attack stat, not 'Occasionally attacks twice.'

Discuss.

[Quetzacoatl]

Ugh, it's official. RDM is boned hard this quarter, unless temper gets 20-25% OAT or 10-15% DA in spell form.

[Duelle]

Ugh, it's official. RDM is boned hard this quarter, unless temper gets 20-25% OAT or 10-15% DA in spell form.Bug reports, feedback and all that would work in our favor.. I haven't seen anything from the devs as of yet stating "this is the final version of the spell you'll be getting, so stop talking about it".

[Hashmalum]

First, let me state that I feel that RDM's healing, enfeebling, and yes, melee all need to be buffed. RDM has multiple possible roles and dev attention needs to be paid to all of them. This update fails utterly at the first two and now we know it fails hard at the third as well. We don't want spells that are so weak we can only note that they do anything at all via a parser. Temper with a ~5% double attack rate is simply not worth its casting time or MP. The rate needs to come up quite a bit, but that by itself will not result in RDM being allowed to melee in party situations; Temper also needs a +Subtle Blow trait. Think about it, attacking with multiple weaker hits instead of one larger hit creates TP feed issues and that is why other jobs that rely on multiple hits have some form of Subtle Blow. Monk? Subtle Blow job trait. Ninja? Also Subtle Blow job trait. Puppetmaster's automaton? Getting Subtle Blow in the update. You see my point. A RDM who tries meleeing the mob will catch party aggro as it is, giving us multiple hits will make it even worse.

Of course, there is another way of dealing with it, and that is giving RDM some TP move-reducing enfeebling spells, which would also help with our lagging enfeebles. Virus or (gasp!) even Amnesia would help with both problems. Amnesia would also have the added benefit of making our enfeebling relevant against mobs whose "normal" hits are actually specials like Shinryu, iron giant family, etc; as it is, Paralyze won't cancel their normal attacks and Slow won't affect them either. If Amnesia is too strong for player use, create a new status that has a chance to cancel special moves like Paralyze does spells and normal hits, and/or a status that increases special move readying time and recovery time like Slow does for magic.

[Economizer]

If the healers are doing their jobs correctly, TP feeding won't be an issue.

Maybe on normal, everyday mobs, but most of the new super mobs are much, much harder, if not impossible if there is TP feed. Easiest way to make a healer sad is to needlessly TP feed.

That said, Red Mage solo, RDM + support duo strategies, and maybe even Red Mage main damage dealer (situational) are all opened up by more advanced melee buffs for Red Mage. Temper is just one in a long line of ever expanding tools for a stab inclined Red Mage. As always, situational, and situations pop up for the most resourceful and clever Red Mages.

[saevel]

Maybe on normal, everyday mobs, but most of the new super mobs are much, much harder, if not impossible if there is TP feed. Easiest way to make a healer sad is to needlessly TP feed.

This isn't true at all. All the current "hard" NM's have permanent Meditate effect, and some of them can just WS without ever having TP. Heck ever the "not so hard" NM's like Sobek can WS whenever they want, we've had a NIN backtank it while we waited on someone to go change jobs. Absolutely no damage was done, not even Dia, and Sobek still use'd various TP moves like Tail Roll and Tyrant Tusk. Iron Giants, Demons and Wyrms are just as bad.

Basically SE noticed that we were dodging NM super moves by controlling the TP the monster received, so they did like they usually do and just cheated. Gave NM's permanent meditate effect or just made them WS on a timer, problem solved.

[SpankWustler]

I think giving a monster TP by whacking it has gotten a far worse reputation than it deserves, possibly since it can be hard to separate from "being in range of TP moves" and most things of any challenge have brutal Area of Effect TP moves.

The most difficult monsters nowadays spew forth extreme Area-of-Effect spells and abilities like Paula Deen's kitchen spews forth butter-based comestibles, though, so the case against people unnecessarily engaging stuff still stands.

[Insaniac]

I think giving a monster TP by whacking it has gotten a far worse reputation than it deserves.

I think people twist it to make their point. It's entirely over or understated. However, in the case of RDM the damage to TP feed ratio is unacceptable on just about anything with a moderately annoying TP move. That's not even taking into account the damage taken to damage dealt ratio on anything with an AoE or AoE enfeebles like silence slow para break doom ect. ect. ect. that result in a RDM not being able to do their main job as well as they should be. All this adds up to RDM having no place on the front lines in 95% of situations. They can get an almace and melee on exp mobs but a RDM DDing on anything beyond that is hurting more than helping. Temper could have been 50% DA and it still would only be usable in exp or on extremely weak NMs.

[SpankWustler]

I think people twist it to make their point. It's entirely over or understated. However, in the case of RDM the damage to TP feed ratio is unacceptable on just about anything with a moderately annoying TP move. That's not even taking into account the damage taken to damage dealt ratio on anything with an AoE or AoE enfeebles like silence slow para break doom ect. ect. ect. that result in a RDM not being able to do their main job as well as they should be. All this adds up to RDM having no place on the front lines in 95% of situations. They can get an almace and melee on exp mobs but a RDM DDing on anything beyond that is hurting more than helping. Temper could have been 50% DA and it still would only be usable in exp or on extremely weak NMs.

I agree with all of this, really. I just don't like that "TP feed" is often mentioned instead of "being in range of Paralyzing Silencing Polka-Slamdance that will prevent one from performing one's other works". Especially when the latter is often the far bigger problem.

Yeah, it's really pedantic, but I have to satisfy the autism demon that lives under my credenza or he'll make me count pencils until my eyes bleed.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

he already said that the test server automatically caps enhancing magic

Yes, but the GAIN line when introduced was ~5 at cap when introduced then as the equipment was upped and the new level cap came they got stronger.

Anyway, this was mentioned on the JAP forum, and by the sounds of it using (lolGoogleTranslator) the double attack raises with more skill though it has a cap.

Could be wrong but it's what GoogleTranslator says.

[Runespider]

For temper to be any kind of use it woudl have to give huge acc and attack buffs along with the double attack, as it is the whole melee rdm thing doesn't really work. They would of been better off giving rdm stronger dot spells than this.

Unless of course it can be cast on others, that would make it somewhat useful.

[Duelle]

Yes, but the GAIN line when introduced was ~5 at cap when introduced then as the equipment was upped and the new level cap came they got stronger.

Anyway, this was mentioned on the JAP forum, and by the sounds of it using (lolGoogleTranslator) the double attack raises with more skill though it has a cap.

Could be wrong but it's what GoogleTranslator says.Copy/paste the post, please. I'll do a translation as soon as I get a chance.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Copy/paste the post, please. I'll do a translation as soon as I get a chance.




For temper to be any kind of use it woudl have to give huge acc and attack buffs along with the double attack, as it is the whole melee rdm thing doesn't really work. They would of been better off giving rdm stronger dot spells than this.

Unless of course it can be cast on others, that would make it somewhat useful.

Gear for the most part is and will forever be one of RDM's main problems. If BLU can wear it RDM should be able to it's simple enough. BLU are renowned for it's cloth armour whereas RDM is supposed to be capable of wearing cloth and light armour.

[Swords]

Yeah for some reason SE stopped giving us access to specific types of gear around the time Zeni NM's were implemented. I know some things like the Enkidu harness may have been overpowering at 75, but really it does not make any sense why they started leaving us out of the Scale, Doublet, and Harness since then.

[Duelle]

I was hoping you'd take a couple of hours to get around to it so I could get some sleep, but oh well. =P

次回バージョンアップで導入予定の「ストライ」について、強化魔法スキルによって発動率を上昇させてほしいという声もありましたが、すでにそのような仕組みで導入されています。（もちろん上限はあります。）

Concerning the spell Temper that will be introduced in the next version update...we have heard your requests to have the effect scale with Enhancing Magic Skill, but that system is already in place. (And of course, there is a cap)

また効果については、ダブルアタックということもあり、強化魔法スキル以外にも装備品などの効果と重複させられること、さらにエン系の魔法と併用して使用 可能といったあたりを考慮し、今は少し控え目な値を設定してます。ちょっとそのあたりの準備が手間ではありますが、効果を重複させた状態での使い勝手など をお寄せいただけると助かります。

Concerning the effect of the spell's effects, such as it being a double attack effect, stacks with gear with the effect, can be used with En-spells. We are currently being cautious with how this is being implemented. We'll continue to work on this until it is brought up to our satisfaction. <== I'm a little confused on how to translate this. Maybe it's my lack of sleep, but the second half of the post is basically saying the stacking with gear and values gained from the spell are under evaluation, so to speak. They're being "conservative" and working on it, pretty much. The first part I'm sure of, but that second paragraph deals with a whole bunch of our concerns here, and I wish I could do a better job with it. Maybe by the time I wake up one of the CMs will be here to translate the rest. Otherwise I'll take a second look at it after I wake up. >.>;;;

[Luces]

that question has been answered yes it does. Fact is y'all keep talking about double attack which according to the text it's not, it's occasionally attacks twice. As far as the description goes this is very different then DA and can proc on a DA proc giving you three swings on a turn where should only get 2. So until SE says it's double atk or someone runs a huge sample size with max DA gear /war without any triple atk on and wait and see basically if you atk on the same round as a double atk. But blue mages phalanx isn't the Phalanx we are use to or it could be a bad translation, or it is OA2 like it says, which again it shouldn't need to be said but apparently it is, is not double atk, and should be separate from DA gear.

[Shiyo]

Yay, let's focus dev time on a spell that WILL NOT HELP RDM IN ANY REAL IN GAME SITUATION THAT MATTERS!

Can't wait to melee those VW mobs that almost 1 shot DD's passively with random AOE! That also silencaga, slowga, amnesia, muddle,cursga, paralyga,doomga, and encumber! Yeah, I really want to be in melee range of those!

Can we please use our dev time on making RDM a better BACK LINE SUPPORT JOB as it's intended to be? Thanks.

Cure4 does not cut it on current level90 voidwatch content, we need a cure5 -1 or another cure4 that's on a seperate timer and heals for the same amount. We should not be a worse healer than blu or equal to a /whm. Why did you give BLU curaga4 and cure5 -1, yet haven't given SCH or RDM a single new cure since cure4 9000 levels ago? Completely uancceptable. Level95 voidwatch content with just cure4/3 will be completely lolworthy.

Stop making mobs highly resistant or basically immune to our enfeebles, stop making mobs like ironclads that enfeebles do almost nothing to, stop giving our enfeebles to WHM.

These 2 simple changes would make RDM a very good and desired job again.

[Insaniac]

that question has been answered yes it does. Fact is y'all keep talking about double attack which according to the text it's not, it's occasionally attacks twice. As far as the description goes this is very different then DA and can proc on a DA proc giving you three swings on a turn where should only get 2. So until SE says it's double atk or someone runs a huge sample size with max DA gear /war without any triple atk on and wait and see basically if you atk on the same round as a double atk. But blue mages phalanx isn't the Phalanx we are use to or it could be a bad translation, or it is OA2 like it says, which again it shouldn't need to be said but apparently it is, is not double atk, and should be separate from DA gear.
There is only one form of multi-attack in the game that stacks with DA and that is sea weapon OAT. Chances are if this is OAT it does not stack with DA and if it does not stack with DA then it's actually worse than if it was JUST DA because 5% of your double attacks would be over written by this. And the sample size wouldn't need to be that big. If you don't see a triple attack within 40-50 DAs then there is a very good chance it does not stack.

[Supersun]

that question has been answered yes it does. Fact is y'all keep talking about double attack which according to the text it's not, it's occasionally attacks twice. As far as the description goes this is very different then DA and can proc on a DA proc giving you three swings on a turn where should only get 2. So until SE says it's double atk or someone runs a huge sample size with max DA gear /war without any triple atk on and wait and see basically if you atk on the same round as a double atk. But blue mages phalanx isn't the Phalanx we are use to or it could be a bad translation, or it is OA2 like it says, which again it shouldn't need to be said but apparently it is, is not double atk, and should be separate from DA gear.

Or...you could just see if the spell activates during a WS.

Besides, the buff you receive from it is called multistrike iirc which is the same buff you receive from a berserkers tonic which is double attack.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Well obviously it's not intended that we should always be in the back if they are giving us some melee love.

Beating a dead horse springs to mind...

This fake RDM who only AbysseaBurned RDM has no idea so it's not really worth wasting time, or your breath on them..

[Supersun]

Oh yeah, forgot

[Hyrist]

I think people twist it to make their point. It's entirely over or understated. However, in the case of RDM the damage to TP feed ratio is unacceptable on just about anything with a moderately annoying TP move.

How?

I'd like you to actually think this out for a moment.

If you're arguing that RDM isn't doing enough damage for the TP he feeds, there is only 2 factors your argument covers. Weapon Skill damage, and base weapon DPS.

The two jobs we compare directly to, Paladin and Blue Mage, SHARE the same sword library we do as far as Magian Trials goes, blade for blade. So figure that entire set up we're even with them as far as weapon selection goes. (And we've got some superior ones on occasion with Chimeric Fleurette beating out the current Magian STR sword by a hair depending on target.)

So what makes it so much lower than PLD and BLU? STR? Admittedly, RDM lacks in available STR+, except now we've gotten a function of that available with Gain STR. And we do have a WIDE variety of available Attack+ gear to help with our attack deficiency. If we were to focus it exclusively, RDM is more than capable of bridging the attack gap between these two jobs, especially considering en-spells supplement that. (Though PLD has kept distance now with Enlight in that regard.)

If anything it sounds like your arguing for Attack over Accuracy in gear selection. Which would be an intelligent choice if you're worried about your TP feed like RDM should be. That way, any 'lack' there in RDM Damage isn't contributing to 'TP feed' as you care to worry so much over.

If that adjustment isn't enough for you as far as DPS goes, then your opinion stretches to PLD and BLU's melee as well, which isn't just a problem with RDM now is it? (And before you argue that BLU has it's melee Spells and PLD melee's for hate. BLU doesn't need to melee for it's physical spells, and in that regard, RDM has its nukes.)

Now if you're arguing Weapon Skills, I agree. ALL sword weaponskills need to be adjusted to not be so terrible in general. BLU can bypass this with Chain Affinity, but that tends to leave PLD and RDM both in the dust, and Magical WSes in general are rather lacking. However, SE has stated they intend to adjust WSes, so at this point I'd say that argument is on hold until we see what happens.

I'm not expecting RDM to suddenly be on par with an equally geared BLU in total damage output at all, mind you, but I don't believe the problem is as pronounced as you're claiming it to be. This is more of an issue of debate among choices in RDM's gearing and the over-arching problem with Sword WSes (And RDM not having access to EX ones.) Then it is solely a "RDM" problem.

[Shiyo]

Hyrist I dunno what game you're playing but, in real FFXI the only content you bring RDM's to currently is outside, and it's called voidwatch. You bring RDM's for refresh2, haste, back up cures and enfeebles/procs. Real melee jobs can't even melee these VW mobs without being DESTROYED, they constantly aoe, and have nasty debuffs, binds, silences,etc. Each AOE almost 1 shots real DD's, you do not want the mob getting any TP at all. Only ranged damage works, so you will NEVER closer than ~19 yalms from the mob at any time, ever. You will not be meleeing, ever. The only content RDM is useful for, you will never be within 19 yalms of, why buff RDM melee?

I didn't even mention the fact REAL dd's jobs with access to REAL gear(aka gear above level 75 with melee stats) like NIN THF etc hit these mobs for like 2-10 and have extremely low acc. No way in hell are you going to be doing any decent dmg at all as a RDM with our crap melee gear, plus you'll be making the tanks die faster by feeding it TP when you do hit it :/

They shouldn't be touching melee RDM, it's like buffing WHM melee, completely worthless. Cure4 is too weak on level90 VW mobs, and by 95 it will be a complete joke. We need a real cure and mobs not so resistant to our debuffs if we want our job to be desired again, and not laughed at like lolpup of 2007.

[Supersun]

It's not like they are adding more wings to Walk of Echoes this update where melee damage is generally a good thing.

[cidbahamut]

Isn't that just Campaign 2.0?

[Hyrist]

Hyrist I dunno what game you're playing but, in real FFXI the only content you bring RDM's to currently is outside, and it's called voidwatch.

Really? Then I must have imagined the entire time in Dynamis, Abyssea, Missions, WoE's, Campaigns, etc.

Not everyone has the absolute best jobs available to them for all the content they play.
Not everyone WANTS TO BRING the best jobs available for the content they play.

I think it's you who's playing in the more closed community. Restricted entirely to the most dedicated endgame players who exclude any tactic but the one most approved by said closed community.

Voidwatch is not the sum of FFXI, nor is it the only thing RDM is 'invited' for.

MOST players actually play the jobs they want to play for the content they go to, not the jobs they are told to.

[Shiyo]

You are completely useless inside abyssea, missions can be solod, WOE is lol, campaign is LOL. Dynamis can be solod, rdm does horrible melee damage, the mobs are ep, and many other jobs are better for proccing/THing. You should be pulling, slepeegaing, dispelling, spamming dia, hasting, refreshing, curing inside dynamis.

You can melee extremely weak/soloable content, that alone says how useful meleeing is.

[cidbahamut]

MOST players actually play the jobs they want to play for the content they go to, not the jobs they are told to.

Most players are also not very good at FFXI.

[Hyrist]

I love how the first counter to being told you're in the minority, is to insult the majority. It really shows what kind of person you really are.

If we're going to be bitter and cynical. Do you really think your 'skill' in the game matters to SE's bottom line? Putting on airs over a PVE MMO with no real end reward (unless you sell your accounts to RMT.) is kinda sad.

People play this game for personal enjoyment, period. Trying to establish yourself into some imaginary pecking order is how you get your kicks, go ahead, but don't pretend like it actually matters.

From the developer's perspective, they try to listen to ALL their players. And if it means having to choke a decision they make that you don't like, that's what you do.

[Insaniac]

tl;drSome of you guys are impossible to talk to. You either talk down to people who disagree with you or instantly label them as trolls. Anyway, PLDs melee for extra hate not damage and BLUs are in melee range to cast their high damage BLU magic. You ussually wont see BLU DD on a lot of the things we dont want RDMs DDing on either even though their output potential higher than what a RDMs is AND BLUs aren't generally depended on for cures or na spells or buffs so when they get stoned or paraed or silenced its not a huge deal. I feel like you were really proud of yourself when you came up with your BLU/PLD/RDM argument but it doesn't make much sense.

[Stylin]

Some of you guys are impossible to talk to. You either talk down to people who disagree with you or instantly label them as trolls.

You make it sound like this is something exclusive to the RDM melee crowd. Hell, it's not even exclusive to Red Mages in general. Welcome to the internet.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Some of you guys are impossible to talk to. You either talk down to people who disagree with you or instantly label them as trolls. Anyway, PLDs melee for extra hate not damage and BLUs are in melee range to cast their high damage BLU magic. You ussually wont see BLU DD on a lot of the things we dont want RDMs DDing on either even though their output potential higher than what a RDMs is AND BLUs aren't generally depended on for cures or na spells or buffs so when they get stoned or paraed or silenced its not a huge deal. I feel like you were really proud of yourself when you came up with your BLU/PLD/RDM argument but it doesn't make much sense.

RDM shouldn't be relied on for those either seeing as how they don't have native access to them.

[Insaniac]

RDM shouldn't be relied on for those either seeing as how they don't have native access to them.
...............

[Shiyo]

Yeah we should all be subbing NIN and meleeing in our awesome af3 with awesome melee stats while wiffing 75% of the time and hitting for 2-10, giving the mob unlimited TP then being 1 shot by a random AOE :D

[Insaniac]

No, we shouldn't be dual wielding because RDM doesn't get that trait natively.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Yeah we should all be subbing NIN and meleeing in our awesome af3 with awesome melee stats while wiffing 75% of the time and hitting for 2-10, giving the mob unlimited TP then being 1 shot by a random AOE :D

Okay, we get it, you don't melee on Rdm or care to ever, but this post is still full of idiocy or shows you've only seen people who fulltime gear meleeing. I'm not going to be jaded and say Rdm melee is good on higher level mobs but the situation you're describing only happens if you're gimp beyond help swinging a bronze dagger or something equally retarded.

You can't whiff and give the mob unlimited TP. If you're getting one shot on rdm/nin meleeing or not, chances are you're doingitrong.

[Shiyo]

Yeah t4 voidwatch mobs don't nearly 1 shot melee, ever!

[Neisan_Quetz]

Apparently you didn't read what I said the first time, go read it again about what I said about stronger NMs. Even then Rdm still has more defensive tools than most melee assuming capped DT sets.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Yeah we should all be subbing NIN and meleeing in our awesome af3 with awesome melee stats while wiffing 75% of the time and hitting for 2-10, giving the mob unlimited TP then being 1 shot by a random AOE :D

Your trolling attempts are getting worse.... try harder.

Interesting fact for you...

RDM with full 50% -DT is better than a DD with 50% -DT... Reason why you ask?! Phalanx, Stoneskin and MDB.

[saevel]

It's ok, shes not an actual RDM, she abyssea burned it.

Of all the jobs in the game, the two hardest to kill are PLD and RDM. PLD's have crazy pdt / mdt sets with their shields, RDM's have crazy buffs. Or did people miss the crazy solo's all those guys were doing, where they stood toe to toe with Bune, a NM that would eat other melee's in seconds (at 75). Or the lv90 Jormy Solo. Although truth be told, these have done more to hurt the job then help it, "RDM is very powerful, we're not sure what we want to do".

[Shiyo]

Brb going to level in onzozo and valley of sorrows again so I be a real RDM

[Rayik]

Brb going to level in onzozo and valley of sorrows again so I be a real RDM

It's a start...

Really, just quit with the "every one who doesn't play like me is wrong" attitude. RDM gets swords. Some people like using them. Deal with it.

[cidbahamut]

It's a start...

Really, just quit with the "every one who doesn't play like me is wrong" attitude. RDM gets swords. Some people like using them. Deal with it.

Can we get a halt on the "every one who didn't level like me is wrong" attitude as well? Getting tired of hearing it tossed around by folks. I know you haven't Rayik, but it gets old hearing such silliness over and over again just like the "everyone who doesn't play like me is wrong" sound bit gets old.

[Rayik]

Can we get a halt on the "every one who didn't level like me is wrong" attitude as well? Getting tired of hearing it tossed around by folks. I know you haven't Rayik, but it gets old hearing such silliness over and over again just like the "everyone who doesn't play like me is wrong" sound bit gets old.

Fair enough.

[saevel]

Can we get a halt on the "every one who didn't level like me is wrong" attitude as well? Getting tired of hearing it tossed around by folks. I know you haven't Rayik, but it gets old hearing such silliness over and over again just like the "everyone who doesn't play like me is wrong" sound bit gets old.
Sorry but no, there is a significant difference between someone who actually leveled with cycles and screaming party leaders, and someone who leveled while AFK or opening box's.

Leveling inside abyssea isn't bad, but she's missing a few years worth of experience before her opinions will carry any weight, and seeing the tone used in her posts it's obvious she has no plans to actually play the job.

[cidbahamut]

I'll grant you that she doesn't really have much to contribute to the discussion, but I still object to your "uphill both ways or No True Scottsman" rhetoric.

[Rayik]

Sorry but no, there is a significant difference between someone who actually leveled with cycles and screaming party leaders, and someone who leveled while AFK or opening box's.

Leveling inside abyssea isn't bad, but she's missing a few years worth of experience before her opinions will carry any weight, and seeing the tone used in her posts it's obvious she has no plans to actually play the job.

*Applauds*

For the record, I Aby-burned my DRG, DNC, and finished off WAR(was already pretty high, just not 75). But, any time I post in one of those forums, it's to ask a question and gain knowledge from the more experienced folk. People who ABy-burn a job as complex as RDM really have no weight to come into a forum and start bad-mouthing experienced players and optional play styles.

[FrankReynolds]

If you were having trouble with cycles and screaming party leaders, its highly unlikely that you are good enough at support / enfeebling to move to the front line and still perform as well. I don't really see why her being a newly leveled red mage should change that for everyone else.

Are you suggesting that red mages need melee boosts more than improved enfeebles buffs etc. because you partied with mean people that yelled at you to "haste moar!" when you were doing just fine? or are you saying that they yelled at you because your actually not good at buffing / enfeebling so you want to melee instead?

In a perfect world how exactly would a %5~ DA rate get you into more parties or make events go smoother? Are you suggesting that groups would invite you to melee, and then get another red to haste / cure / enfeeble / refresh everyone etc.?

[Bubeeky]

If you were having trouble with cycles and screaming party leaders, its highly unlikely that you are good enough at support / enfeebling to move to the front line and still perform as well. I don't really see why her being a newly leveled red mage should change that for everyone else.

Are you suggesting that red mages need melee boosts more than improved enfeebles buffs etc. because you partied with mean people that yelled at you to "haste moar!" when you were doing just fine? or are you saying that they yelled at you because your actually not good at buffing / enfeebling so you want to melee instead?

In a perfect world how exactly would a %5~ DA rate get you into more parties or make events go smoother? Are you suggesting that groups would invite you to melee, and then get another red to haste / cure / enfeeble / refresh everyone etc.?

I think they were just mentioning that because ppl that aby-burn a job don't deal with all that stuff, they stand there and do nothing terribly constructive and suddenly they have a lvl 90 job, then she comes in here telling them in a very attitude-driven, condescending way about certain playstyles and why they are wrong and whatnot.

Furthermore, I don't think Cid/Rayik/whoever else want to melee instead of enfeeble, they just don't want a job that's listed as a jack-of-all-trades to be regulated to a backline buffer, in the same vein as whm or brd...they want to be able to jump in there and be more active. That's my interpretation anyway :)

I think it's already been said that Temper is going to scale, so it's not just 5% anymore, plus it's just simply a step in the right direction from SE to help rdm out in the melee dept :)

[Rayik]

I think they were just mentioning that because ppl that aby-burn a job don't deal with all that stuff, they stand there and do nothing terribly constructive and suddenly they have a lvl 90 job, then she comes in here telling them in a very attitude-driven, condescending way about certain playstyles and why they are wrong and whatnot.

Furthermore, I don't think Cid/Rayik/whoever else want to melee instead of enfeeble, they just don't want a job that's listed as a jack-of-all-trades to be regulated to a backline buffer, in the same vein as whm or brd...they want to be able to jump in there and be more active. That's my interpretation anyway :)

I think it's already been said that Temper is going to scale, so it's not just 5% anymore, plus it's just simply a step in the right direction from SE to help rdm out in the melee dept :)

This is all I've been trying to say. Thank you.

[Shiyo]

Sorry but no, there is a significant difference between someone who actually leveled with cycles and screaming party leaders, and someone who leveled while AFK or opening box's.

Leveling inside abyssea isn't bad, but she's missing a few years worth of experience before her opinions will carry any weight, and seeing the tone used in her posts it's obvious she has no plans to actually play the job.
roflllllllllllll

that's gold, hahahahahahaha

Ty for the laugh, lolol

[saevel]

If you were having trouble with cycles and screaming party leaders, its highly unlikely that you are good enough at support / enfeebling to move to the front line and still perform as well. I don't really see why her being a newly leveled red mage should change that for everyone els

See this argument can never be won, I mention something and the immediate retort is "your doing it wrong so therefor you must suck". Its no longer a rational debate, these posters have turned it into a flame contest on who can come up with the wittier come back.

And this they get added to the ignore list.

[Miitan]

Sorry but no, there is a significant difference between someone who actually leveled with cycles and screaming party leaders, and someone who leveled while AFK or opening box's.

Leveling inside abyssea isn't bad, but she's missing a few years worth of experience before her opinions will carry any weight, and seeing the tone used in her posts it's obvious she has no plans to actually play the job.

Oh dear...

I played with her when she was on RDM back in 2008. We didn't have them there Abysseas in those days.

[Miitan]

See this argument can never be won, I mention something and the immediate retort is "your doing it wrong so therefor you must suck". Its no longer a rational debate, these posters have turned it into a flame contest on who can come up with the wittier come back.

And this they get added to the ignore list.

Translation: I can't cope with people disagreeing with me, so I ignore them.

[saevel]

Oh dear...

I played with her when she was on RDM back in 2008. We didn't have them there Abysseas in those days.

Except people have claimed to have seen her aby chest burning on RDM under 75. So which is it...

[Shiyo]

http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Sylph/Kozuki

wat

Also level 61 RDM in 2003 on my char "Shalis" named "mayoko" now and I use it as a mule, leveled in onzozo and valley of sorrows etc before I quit, but pretend you know me <3

[cidbahamut]

Except people have claimed to have seen her aby chest burning on RDM under 75. So which is it...

I'll take "New Characters" for 500 Alex.

[Rayik]

So from what you guys say, Shiyo didn't ABy burn? Wow. Aby-burning actually made her posts make more sense.

[FrankReynolds]

At no point did I say "your doing it wrong". I said "If your having trouble doing it to begin with, than adding more tasks to perform (melee) is not going to make you do it better.".

That is not to say you can't do it. The game is meant to be fun. But in order for the rest of your ally to have fun, they need you to not mess things up for them so that you can have fun. I get that we can take a blizzaga 4 to the face better than most jobs, but if we do, who is gonna support the rest of the group while were doing it?

Unless you want them to buff these sort of spells to the point where people actually bring red mage for DD and bring other jobs to support them.... I don't really see how you are going to get a lot of use out of this spell. It would be a lot better if it worked on party members, or if they just gave us something else that would enhance the rolls we are actually expected to play.

[saevel]

So from what you guys say, Shiyo didn't ABy burn? Wow. Aby-burning actually made her posts make more sense.

Someone that ignorant about RDM pretty much means they Aby burned it. Being that ignorant and claiming to not of aby burned it is far far worse. I could understand someone ignorant due to simply not having the experience that comes with playtime, but someone who's supposedly has that experience yet is still ignorant speaks volumes.

Would of been better to of stuck with the aby burned story.

[cidbahamut]

ITT: leveling in Abyssea is relevant to anything ever.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

So from what you guys say, Shiyo didn't ABy burn? Wow. Aby-burning actually made her posts make more sense.

Shiyo was AbysseaBurned according to someone on BG... May or may not have had a character previously that was RDM, who knows!? Personally if I were her I'd rather people think such an ill-informed opinion comes from an abyssea burned job.

[FrankReynolds]

You don't have to have red mage leveled at all to realize that buffing solo melee stats when the job needs so much more, is like polishing a turd.

[saevel]

Anyhow this is definitely off topic, lets please move back on topic before a Mod comes in here. Their watching us you know.

[Shiyo]

Dear SE, RDM is not a melee job. The job is incredibly weak inside abyssea, and could use some slight tweaks to enfeebles/cures/buffs outside. Please adjust these things before you spend time on worthless "fun" buffs to our melee. We need a role in parties so we can get gear before we need buffs to soloing things that give us nothing in return.

This is not 2003 anymore, everyone has multiple jobs leveled with multiple gear sets, it's extremely easy to level and even easier to gear jobs now. It's simply far easier to change to a melee job when someone wants to melee/solo than it is to buff RDM's horrible meleeing abilities to be decent.

No decent group, LS leader, or party leader will ever invite a RDM for their meleeing abilities. please focus on RDM's strengths instead of turning it into something it's not and making the job played by almost no one.

Sincerely, RDM main Kiaru <3

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Dear SE.

Please ignore the post above and below this one.

Thank you!

[cidbahamut]

Dear SE,

Please nuke the Red Mage sub-forum in its entirety.

Thank you.

[Miitan]

Dear SE,

What's for lunch?

Thank you.

[Insaniac]

Change temper into a stance that gives 100% quadruple attack but prevents the RDM from engaging the mob. Then both sides are happy right?

[FrankReynolds]

That sounds an awful lot like what they did already :P

[Duelle]

You don't have to have red mage leveled at all to realize that buffing solo melee stats when the job needs so much more, is like polishing a turd.Because this is the only melee-oriented change the developers will throw at us, amirite?

We all know Temper isn't the cure for cancer. All I can hope for is that the developers build on it with additional melee adjustments rather than sit on the spell.

[saevel]

If you read he's posts they boil down to this "Any update to RDM melee is a waste of space, Dev's should instead give RDM's more buffs so they can cast them on me". Much like the others.

[FrankReynolds]

Because this is the only melee-oriented change the developers will throw at us, amirite?

We all know Temper isn't the cure for cancer. All I can hope for is that the developers build on it with additional melee adjustments rather than sit on the spell.

If you put this spell, or red mage melee in general in a bubble, it is all great news. I have a problem with it because I know how long it takes them to add / improve / implement things (if they ever get around to them at all), and Solo Melee abilities are the least of red mage worries IMHO.

I mean honestly. Its like giving a homeless derelict <red mage> a helicopter <solo only melee spell> .... everyone would love to have their own helicopter<solo only melee spell>... but did you really help that guy? He can't even <melee anything worth a damn> fly it.

[cidbahamut]

Because this is the only melee-oriented change the developers will throw at us, amirite?

We all know Temper isn't the cure for cancer. All I can hope for is that the developers build on it with additional melee adjustments rather than sit on the spell.
If they're going to make any meaningful change to the melee situation it needs to be done in a comprehensive package, not rationed out one update every half a decade. Applying a bandaid when the patient needs a full emergency room followed by reconstructive surgery and months of physical therapy just isn't a good idea.

If something's worth doing, it's worth doing right, and SE has shown time and again that they can't or aren't willing to do it right.

[Cursed]

If you put this spell, or red mage melee in general in a bubble, it is all great news. I have a problem with it because I know how long it takes them to add / improve / implement things (if they ever get around to them at all), and Solo Melee abilities are the least of red mage worries IMHO.

I mean honestly. Its like giving a homeless derelict <red mage> a helicopter <solo only melee spell> .... everyone would love to have their own helicopter<solo only melee spell>... but did you really help that guy? He can't even <melee anything worth a damn> fly it.

I loled irl
well put.

[Duelle]

If you put this spell, or red mage melee in general in a bubble, it is all great news. I have a problem with it because I know how long it takes them to add / improve / implement things (if they ever get around to them at all), and Solo Melee abilities are the least of red mage worries IMHO.You, again, assume this is all we're getting. If Temper is the end of the line for RDM melee, then yes, we have the right to be upset and express that through whatever means we can.

Again, we haven't been told this is all they're doing for our melee side. As I've mentioned before, the devs are supposedly planning to revise weapon proficiencies, and it's not much of a stretch to think they'd look at our lacking sword and dagger skills and give them a bump, coupled with further weapon skill access. We haven't been the only ones asking for this, as the JP players have also been clamoring for this. Their 殴り赤魔道士 thread may not have the views or the number of posts of our melee thread, but the requests are there. If anything it proves the melee camp is comprised of much, much more than Duelle, Seriha, Saev, Swords, Supersun and the rest of the gang.

This is not to mention additional changes that are very possible to help out the front-liners. There are options and possibilities, and our role here is to simply let the devs know that despite the group that wants us in the perceived "rightful" place of buff-bot, there are those who have been wanting more out of this job for a long time. Neither camp is wrong in liking their respective playstyle; after all, this is a sword&magic hybrid job.

[Cursed]

You, again, assume this is all we're getting. If Temper is the end of the line for RDM melee, then yes, we have the right to be upset and express that through whatever means we can.

Again, we haven't been told this is all they're doing for our melee side. As I've mentioned before, the devs are supposedly planning to revise weapon proficiencies, and it's not much of a stretch to think they'd look at our lacking sword and dagger skills and give them a bump, coupled with further weapon skill access. We haven't been the only ones asking for this, as the JP players have also been clamoring for this. Their 殴り赤魔道士 thread may not have the views or the number of posts of our melee thread, but the requests are there. If anything it proves the melee camp is comprised of much, much more than Duelle, Seriha, Saev, Swords, Supersun and the rest of the gang.

This is not to mention additional changes that are very possible to help out the front-liners. There are options and possibilities, and our role here is to simply let the devs know that despite the group that wants us in the perceived "rightful" place of buff-bot, there are those who have been wanting more out of this job for a long time. Neither camp is wrong in liking their respective playstyle; after all, this is a sword&magic hybrid job.

after the coming update there are 4 more levels till new hard cap.
do you think SE is going to squeeze in
-Reflect
-PhalanxIII
-SlowIII
-ParalyzeIII
-Demi
-StoneskinII
-Haste2/Hastega
-RaiseII
-CureV
-GravityII
and a lot more in 4 levels?

What you temper-tantrum RDMs don't realize is "temper" is going to be pretty much it for you.
A last ditch effort from SE to toss RDMs a useless toy.
You will be forever banned to solo play.
DRGs will pity you
PUPs will pity you
BST will refuse to invite you to his animal farm.

[Stylin]

What you temper-tantrum RDMs don't realize is "temper" is going to be pretty much it for you.
A last ditch effort from SE to toss RDMs a useless toy.
You will be forever banned to solo play.
DRGs will pity you
PUPs will pity you
BST will refuse to invite you to his animal farm.

You must be a riot at parties.

[Duelle]

You must be a riot at parties.Naw, man. He can see the future. Hey, how'd the Old Republic do? Even better, is FFXIV still standing? Would like to know if Mists of Pandaria managed to undo the damage to WoW caused by Cataclysm, too. plz respond :O

[Daniel_Hatcher]

after the coming update there are 4 more levels till new hard cap.
do you think SE is going to squeeze in
-Reflect
-PhalanxIII
-SlowIII
-ParalyzeIII
-Demi
-StoneskinII
-Haste2/Hastega
-RaiseII
-CureV
-GravityII
and a lot more in 4 levels?

What you temper-tantrum RDMs don't realize is "temper" is going to be pretty much it for you.
A last ditch effort from SE to toss RDMs a useless toy.
You will be forever banned to solo play.
DRGs will pity you
PUPs will pity you
BST will refuse to invite you to his animal farm.

Interesting detail... They already said there would be a new meirt system for 99. Do you really think if they added those spells you'd be able to learn them all. If they were to be added it'd be through that system as it'd limit the amount you could learn.

Besides like you (PLD's) RDM's like their job no matter how useless it is, again like you (PLD's) and are hopeful good will come by 99.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If they made hastega into a spell I can tell what job will not be getting it. Phalanx II was already uncapped so I don't see them making a third. Rdm is getting Raise 2 next update.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

If they made hastega into a spell I can tell what job will not be getting it. Phalanx II was already uncapped so I don't see them making a third. Rdm is getting Raise 2 next update.

I'd rather Haste II over Hastega, even if it means I'd be needing to cast in on everyone like it is now.

[saevel]

Don't ya like it how eventually every last detractors argument boils down to the exact same lines.

Ultimately none of this matter, SE has already stated their bringing RDM to the front line, and now their going about holding true to their word. Their even listening to feedback and working on things. Its that last part that has the anti-melee crowd in a huge uproar, that SE actually listened. For years the "lolMeleeRDM" group has been assured that SE would ~never~ add anything of significance to "lolMeleeRDM". That just changed and now their going nuts.

I mean we've got mainly PLD's and BLU's coming on here telling us what "RDM" should have and what we should be doing, kinda hilarious. RDM is the only job where I've seen other jobs think they can tell you want to do.

[Rayik]

If you put this spell, or red mage melee in general in a bubble, it is all great news. I have a problem with it because I know how long it takes them to add / improve / implement things (if they ever get around to them at all), and Solo Melee abilities are the least of red mage worries IMHO.

I mean honestly. Its like giving a homeless derelict <red mage> a helicopter <solo only melee spell> .... everyone would love to have their own helicopter<solo only melee spell>... but did you really help that guy? He can't even <melee anything worth a damn> fly it.

What's your melee gear set look like? Are your melee skills capped? Hmmm?

Not so much replying to Frank directly, but just using his comment as an example. I ask because I see a lot of detractors say how worthless melee is, then they have squat for gear or skills for it. Of course it's going to be worthless if you've put zero effort into it!

I've had the prviledge of melee'ing alongside some other RDM's recently(no parse, trash mobs in Aby), and the anti-melee stigma is so harsh, most RDM's are scared to even bother making an attempt at doing it well. I see so many RDM's melee with uncapped skill, in MAGE GEAR, and then sulk about how worthless it is.

If my WAR was doing WS's in Haste gear, it'd be pretty worthless too.

All I'm asking is, have you tried it? Have you put forth a shred of effort into making it worthwhile? Or did you simply follow the status quo, just read message boards, do what you were told, stood in the back, and buffed everyone else like a good doggie...

I'm not saying RDM melee at the moment is anything great, but it's decent, and only getting better. If SE pulls through with the WS adjustment like I'd like to think they will, I think people will be singing a different tune. New gear(that sword looks badass), new spells like Temper and possible adjustments to Enspells, possible access to WS like Vorpal Blade, yeah, I think it's at least a possibility that RDM melee can be decent.

If not, then I will happily eat humble pie, and end my crusade. Seriously.

[Rayik]

Don't ya like it how eventually every last detractors argument boils down to the exact same lines.

Ultimately none of this matter, SE has already stated their bringing RDM to the front line, and now their going about holding true to their word. Their even listening to feedback and working on things. Its that last part that has the anti-melee crowd in a huge uproar, that SE actually listened. For years the "lolMeleeRDM" group has been assured that SE would ~never~ add anything of significance to "lolMeleeRDM". That just changed and now their going nuts.

I mean we've got mainly PLD's and BLU's coming on here telling us what "RDM" should have and what we should be doing, kinda hilarious. RDM is the only job where I've seen other jobs think they can tell you want to do.

Agreed. The thing that kills me about this. Absolutely kills me, is that this entire anti/pro melee thing is nothing more than an argument over preference. Individual, personal play style. People get so wound up in how everybody else "should" be playing that they have the nerve to step onto your porch, and tell you how to plant your garden... What color to paint your house...

Get off my lawn.

If someone's play style has a negative impact in a group setting, then it's that group's problem... Not yours. Don't want to melee on RDM? Then don't do it. Simple. If you enjoy a mage-only play style, then continue enjoying it. Nobody is taking that away from you.

[saevel]

Ray,

No they haven't tried it, of the few detractors that are actually RDM's, none of them have put forth effort to make a melee build due to the stigma attached. This is why it's pointless to try to argue against them, their arguing out ignorance and you can't argue with an ignorant person.

[SpankWustler]

Really, "Red Mage melee suks u hit 4 1-10 damange lulz" is a lame argument. Red Mage has a pretty similar TP set to Blue Mage, mostly falling behind in the weapon skill gear department. It's certainly not going to compare to a Warrior, Monk, Dragoon, or the like; but pretty much any job can engage fodder as well as certain Notorious Monsters and perform tolerably nowadays and an Almace-equipped Red Mage certainly isn't at the bottom of the pack.

Meleeing on Red Mage is often ill-advised because it's such an awesome mage, not because it's magically more awful than other mediocre melee jobs in spite of having similar numbers.

[saevel]

If someone's play style has a negative impact in a group setting, then it's that group's problem... Not yours. Don't want to melee on RDM? Then don't do it. Simple. If you enjoy a mage-only play style, then continue enjoying it. Nobody is taking that away from you.

This is why I keep recommending everyone to just ignore the trolls, eventually they'll go away. I entertained each one of them until their arguments broke down to "RDM isn't a DD, your melee is the suckz so the dev's should spend their time on giving ~MY~ job a melee update not yours", then they got added to the ignore list.

[Rayik]

Ray,

No they haven't tried it, of the few detractors that are actually RDM's, none of them have put forth effort to make a melee build due to the stigma attached. This is why it's pointless to try to argue against them, their arguing out ignorance and you can't argue with an ignorant person.

I wouldn't say all of them are being ignorant. Some players, Greatgaurdian comes to mind, really only look at RDM, like he said, as a set of tools to use in the game. They have no preconceptions about what the job was supposed to be, and only see what it's top-layer, surface only usefulness is. And that's fine; they see what the job does well, and only want to do that. Rather than explore other possibilities or experiment, they are happy just focusing on the superficial role the job was put into by the community. They found what works, and works well, and just want to keep doing that.

The problem is, that's not all the job is capable of, but you'd never know, because a lot of those complacent players are scared of anything causing any ripples in the water. They're scared they might be called on to do something besides stand in one spot and cycle spells. Someone proposes another use(gasp! a hybrid job!) and they go apesh**, shouting down anyone who attempts to disrupt that little niche they enjoy.

Not me. I like to try different things, and experiment. I like to find a use for everything. If it exists, even if it sucks, I want to make it not suck. I'm not interested in the status quo; that's boring to me. We already know that "stand in the back and buff cycle/heal" works, so there's no new ground to find there. No trails to blaze. No challenge. It's boring. Years of pink bird parties in Aht Uhrgan areas killed my attention span for that kind of play. I'm very scatter-brained; I enjoy the challenge of standing toe-to-toe with a big nasty mob, and keeping buffs cycled, and keeping people alive. Not everybody likes that, but I do.

But hey, that's their preference, and it's not my place to take that away from them. Everyone pays a monthly fee for this game; you play your way, I'll play mine. Trust me to be intelligent enough to know when certain play styles are inappropriate. If I am in your pt, and I'm hurting our effectiveness, let me know and I'll change up.

It's one kind of play style, and for only certain appropriate times in the game. We're not asking to rewrite the entire job. People need to worry less about how other people play.

[Rayik]

This is why I keep recommending everyone to just ignore the trolls, eventually they'll go away. I entertained each one of them until their arguments broke down to "RDM isn't a DD, your melee is the suckz so the dev's should spend their time on giving ~MY~ job a melee update not yours", then they got added to the ignore list.

There is some good discussion going on, but you have to sift through the trolls to find it. Cidbahamut and I seem to be on opposite sides of the debate, but I frequently quote him and agree with him(I assume "he") because he does bring good info and honest contributions to the discussion. I don't have to agree 100% with someone to respect them, and I respect Cid.

Greatgaurdian is another one. GG is a very intelligent and experienced RDM. You have to sort of block out his condescending tone, but there's good info there. GG and I got nose-to-nose a few times, but I definitely respect that player's opinion and read what he has to say. There are other's but I can't remember all the names.

The trolls who simply kick in the door, shout "hurrdurr u sux gimme buffs lol" get added to the ignore list. Or they just get ignored altogether. I only actually have 2 people on my ignore list, one of which only posted in this forum maybe once or twice.

If anything, these debates in the RDM forum have at the very least helped me focus on why I want to play the way I do, and help me see what obstacles the game presents, up close and personal. For all the negativity and shouting going on, I want to melee on RDM more than ever.

[saevel]

"hurrdurr u sux gimme buffs lol"

That's exactly what Cid did when he first entered this debate, back when we were asking SE for some sort of "Melee" update. Maybe he's changed, doubt it though. I don't even read his posts on alla much less here.

[cidbahamut]

That's exactly what Cid did when he first entered this debate, back when we were asking SE for some sort of "Melee" update. Maybe he's changed, doubt it though. I don't even read his posts on alla much less here.

This is why you will never contribute anything useful to this discussion. Because rather than actually have a discussion, you're content to put everyone who disagrees with you on your ignore list.

Then you repeatedly make posts about it to rub it in in a manner designed to provoke a hostile reaction, all the while putting on airs of taking the moral high-ground. That my friend is what we call trolling.

[Shiyo]

If he ignores everyone who disagrees he'll eventually always be right :D

[Kitkat]

As it stands the spell was placed there, in what appears to be, a way to enhance rdm melee since there has been a lot of discussion in the forums of people debating and conversing on how Rdm Melee is possible, but currently is lacking due to unstable gear or buffs. Temper is a step in the right direction to remedy this, but at the same time I don't think it is good enough to satisfy what the majority of Rdm melee players want.

About the only time I pull out rdm anymore is if it is absolutely needed, or I just want to mess around on it. I'll say this though: Over the past few years SE has been working to increase the Melee aptitude of rdm which can be seen through what has been given to the job. Composure to increase melee accuracy, Chant du Cygne is a huge performance boost for the job in damage output, and now Temper. Given the nature of the job and what it could do without these options I'm not sure what the problem is specifically.

I don't expect rdm to ever get good enough buffs/options to be as good as a normal frontline DD, but I think SE is at least trying to amend the job so it has front line options if a player so desires to do so with the job. I would like to see temper to be a little more noticeable after casting it on yourself or even have a more noticeable scaling to it. Without parse and a large sample in varied skill ranges it is hard to say if it currently does scale unless you want to spend all day with a pen and pad counting every single round and 2nd attack without other DA/TA gear on.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I see there is also some decent equipment for "lolMeleeRDM" in the next update as well the Japanese can use in the test server.

[Supersun]

I see there is also some decent equipment for "lolMeleeRDM" in the next update as well the Japanese can use in the test server.

Such as? :D

[Insaniac]

I see there is also some decent equipment for "lolMeleeRDM" in the next update as well the Japanese can use in the test server.
Wut? wutwutwutwut

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Such as? :D

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/25020/any-good-news-from-the-test-server

There is a lot of items in here that have been found.

I should note, not great by no means but hey, take what you get. Also a new Stoneskin+ earring and haste belt..

[Stylin]

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/25020/any-good-news-from-the-test-server

There is a lot of items in here that have been found.

I should note, not great by no means but hey, take what you get. Also a new Stoneskin+ earring and haste belt..

Hands Ex Rare Lv94
Defense27 MP+50 DEX+8 Dark defense+50 Haste+4%
WAR, MNK, RDM, THF, DRK, BRD, NIN, BLU, COR, PUP, DNC

Feet Rare Lv92
Defense22 AGI+8 Parry+8 Store TP-3 Haste+4%
RDM, THF, RNG, NIN, COR, DNC

I'd say that's pretty incredible, especially those shoes.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Haste+6 acc+6 evasion+6 waist
PDT-4 convert 2% of damage to MP waist

AGI+8 parr+8 stp-3 (this makes a lot of sense SE) haste+4 feet
int+12 macc-4 feet

mnd+15 cure +10% cure casting -10% body
mnd+16 cure+12% cure casting -12% body
mnd+17 cure +15% cure casting -15% MDB+7 body

int+4 mab+4 "addle"+6% (wtf) back
cure+4% back

agi-4 attack+8 store tp+3 ring

MP+20 Received Protect/Shell effect up earring
INT+3 Mag.Atk+4 Element Magic+4 earring

Mag.Acc-3 Mag.Atk+9 neck

Defense17 MP+50 MND+4 shield

There's a second haste sword including the one shown in the released vid, with no tp drain and only 2% haste.

[Stylin]

Actually, after looking it over, the +4 feet won't do anything for my build. Even if I had a +6 belt I'd be 1 point short from being able to drop the Goliard Saio.


Feet Rare Lv92
Defense20 Accuracy+8 Kick Attack+3 Subtle Blow+8 Haste+2%
MNK, WHM, RDM, THF, PLD, BST, BRD, DRG, SMN, BLU, COR, PUP, DNC

With THESE shoes I'd be able to completely drop Dusk completely. As an added bonus I get more Subtle Blow. Kinda funny, just the other day I was looking for a way to squeeze some SB into my TP build.

[Neisan_Quetz]

23% haste with DW body is better than goliard the last time I was comparing sets.

[Stylin]

I'm not always dual-wielding, so it's really a matter of context. Thanks for reminding me I need to finish ACP though. :)

[Neisan_Quetz]

I have one and can't use it since no Zelus :/ Payment issues and bad timing have caused interruptions in my group's gatherings.

[Swords]

There's a second haste sword including the one shown in the released vid, with no tp drain and only 2% haste.

You missed this too.

Sword Rare Lv94 D57 Delay228
MP+25 Cure+10%
WAR, RDM, PLD, DRK, BLU, COR

[Neisan_Quetz]

I really don't see the use since if I'm meleeing I typically don't care enough about curing to gimp my offhand, and have a Surya's if I need to cure. Good for Blu with augmented Genbu's Shield for support curing or something.

[Doombringer]

well, that and an augmented genbus shield might put a dent in the whole being married to staffs problem, but yah i'm not sold...

we DID however, get some cure potency in other slots... switchable slots.. so that'll be cool.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The body and back means I won't need to waste add-on augments on cure potency at least >< Not too sure what I'm going to do with the pants after PDT though... might just leave move speed on it for whm I guess.

[SpankWustler]

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/25020/any-good-news-from-the-test-server

There is a lot of items in here that have been found.

Thanks for the link. There's a lot of amazing stuff for all jobs.

There seems to be a general theme of "Stuff can be equipped by any job that could maybe, possibly, sometimes use it." which is nice to see. I also like that almost none of it is EX, considering a large chunk of it it will probably come from those chests of insurmountable sadness provided by VoidWatch.

[Economizer]

I also like that almost none of it is EX, considering a large chunk of it it will probably come from those chests of insurmountable sadness provided by VoidWatch.

Good for being able to get stuff, but the drop rates will probably be bad enough that it will cost a few million gil, so people morning the death of being able to buy everything were obviously wrong.

I wonder if the new movement speed boots for THF/RNG means Herald's and Crimson legs will get an easier to get counterpart.

Still, that means Red Mage, Paladin, Dark Knight and Samurai are getting new haste belts, and even the pet jobs got a 5%/5% pet Haste belt.

[Malacite]

tl;dr

Does it stack with double/triple attack at all? Proc on WS?

Or just a flat out 5% proc rate that functions like Joyeuse OAT? Please don't let it be joyeuse style...

[Hyrist]

Or just a flat out 5% proc rate that functions like Joyeuse OAT? Please don't let it be joyeuse style...

So far I haven't gotten it to proc on WS so you're likely talking Joyeuse Style.

I really do hope the upload the updated version to the Test Server before they release it.

[Seriha]

Did some plodding on the Test Server curious to see if things had changed. My targets were Glen Crabs in Grauberg[A]. I did 2 sets of 10 mobs, first full-timing Enhancing gear, second in melee gear with no other DA sources on. I was RDM/BLM, so no DA trait there.


Temper: 459 Enhancing full-timed.

Crab 01: 6/34 = 17.6%
Crab 02: 4/34 = 11.7%
Crab 03: 6/30 = 20.0%
Crab 04: 5/39 = 12.8%
Crab 05: 6/35 = 18.1%
Crab 06: 4/41 = 09.7%
Crab 07: 3/35 = 08.5%
Crab 08: 1/35 = 02.8%
Crab 09: 4/31 = 12.9%
Crab 10: 7/45 = 15.5%

Total: 46/359 = 12.8%


Temper: 459 Enhancing on-cast, 392 on-strike.

Crab 01: 5/36 = 13.8%
Crab 02: 5/45 = 11.1%
Crab 03: 6/41 = 14.6%
Crab 04: 4/41 = 09.7%
Crab 05: 5/43 = 11.6%
Crab 06: 8/46 = 17.3%
Crab 07: 7/48 = 14.5%
Crab 08: 7/30 = 23.3%
Crab 09: 6/44 = 13.6%
Crab 10: 4/42 = 09.5%

Total: 57/416 = 13.7%

Inclined to say the spell's improved, and that its potency is hopefully determined on-cast as opposed to on-strike. If we want to assume that and combine the two tallies, 13.29% would be the current estimated proc rate at 459 skill.

[Neisan_Quetz]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13838-SE-Temper-Activation-Rate?p=183938&viewfull=1#post183938

Only post I could find states it stacks with equipment etc. so I'm standing by it's either Jailer effect or straight DA unless I hear clarification.

[Seriha]

I'll hop to Mis[A] and see if I can get a DA proc on some Flat Blades. Mandies should eliminate any random TP from taking damage like I suspected happened the first time I tested Temper on crabs.

Edit: Yup, first Flat Blade yielded 7 TP and 300 damage, while subsequent ones gave 6 and did between 150-200. Think it's safe to call it actual DA at this point.

[saevel]

I'll hop to Mis[A] and see if I can get a DA proc on some Flat Blades. Mandies should eliminate any random TP from taking damage like I suspected happened the first time I tested Temper on crabs.

Edit: Yup, first Flat Blade yielded 7 TP and 300 damage, while subsequent ones gave 6 and did between 150-200. Think it's safe to call it actual DA at this point.

Thanks Seriha, you just saved me a ton of time. Guess we're gotta figure out the scaling formula now. Although looking at your numbers it kinda looks like the Gain-stat formula but different scaling factor.

5% @300, +10 skill = +0.5%
(459-300)/10 = 15.9 * .5 = 7.95 + 5 = 12.95

It's well within the margin of error, but need more testing at much lower enhancing magic to figure it out. If you have time could you beat up mobs with the lowest enhancing magic you can get?.

[Seriha]

I'm 90 capped with full merits, so I'm probably not the best guinea pig for that kind of thing. Was kind of mind numbing manually counting, too. For future testing, I'd suggest whomever nab a ceremonial dagger and pick on Zvahl forts. If they've got a parser, it'd be a lot easier to AFK and come back to the results.

Though, now that I think about it, if they keep the test server up, could manually cap PLD to 85 or somewhere around 300 and it'll actually lower your Enhancing skill. Just hop back to RDM then and could try the above. Not seeing little crystals by our name, however, so I'm thinking things are down for now.

[Hyrist]

You could just level up and do it in the actual game now. For me once we figure the location of the scroll and I get my level up to Par I can update my parser and give it a shot. My skill is a good bit under-leveled still, so we'll have a point of comparison.

[saevel]

They probably reset the test server after the update, makes sense. We'd have to reapply and re-transfer our characters.

I'm in the same boat, 90 capped enh merits, but I got something like 60+ worth of gear. Should be enough for me to test the lower end of the scale.

[Seriha]

They put a post up saying the test server's down until they decide to use it again. So yeah, guess fun mode's done for some. :P

[Hyrist]

More interested in trying to find out where they hid the Temper scroll...

[saevel]

We check the usual venders?

[Kitkat]

Heard reports of it dropping for HKC50-Nest of Nightmares in Monarch Linn.

[saevel]

Any info on Gain-STR?

Guess we need to go around checking every NPC squirreled away in every corner. I hope it's not a battle field only drop, that'll get expensive quick.

[Hyrist]

Sadly I think we're probably going to see those spells there too. This is the final stretch for levels past this point so SE figures some effort should be put into getting the spells.

Still. I'm going to be testing out these battlefields. I'd rather not be at the mercy of the market for them, not to mention fights like these is what I enjoy the most.

[Hyrist]

Wiki posted up this bit which makes me wonder:

"Only affects main weapon, which means an off-hand weapon, for example: Bloody Rapier, can still proc its ability, in this case Drain. "

Is this verified? If so, source?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I knew I forgot to check something on the test-server.

[Hyrist]

I mean If so I'm not all that concerned, really. I've always tended to have a lighter damage multi-hit weapon on my offhand for fodder, and I can just main hand /drk,war,blu,nin else-wise. But I'd rather have the info cite it's sources when it's new. Because, honestly, there's no developer word on it anywhere, heck, I can't even find the forum where anyone says it, and it kind of conflicts what they said about "It stacks on top of everything."

[Seriha]

Only reason I could see an idea like that popping up is how Temper was referred to being similar to similar to an Enspell, of which we know T2s exhibit that particular behavior. My testing didn't involve dual wielding (with a special weapon), so I couldn't really say either way. As is, I had someone in the Bug section try to tell me Temper was affected by day and TP and that he felt it needed time to "build" for procs. With the numbers I'd posted, I fought 3 mobs per cast on the first set, then 3-4 on the second. So there was no indication of any of those things, really.

Can never rule out someone trolling just because of lolrdmmelee too.

[saevel]

Wiki posted up this bit which makes me wonder:

"Only affects main weapon, which means an off-hand weapon, for example: Bloody Rapier, can still proc its ability, in this case Drain. "

Is this verified? If so, source?

If functions on WS and therefor this can not be true. The current game mechanics wouldn't allow for it.

Temper is basically just +DA, its a third earring with DA+X inside it. So unless someone has a large test set to prove otherwise, ignore anything to the contrary. Also wiki (all of them) have proven HORRIBLE sources this past year. There is no longer any effort to keep them clean, lots of vandalism and trolling going on.

[Ophannus]

The only saving grace for Temper is if it scales MASSIVELY past a certain Enhancing Skill level similar to how Gain-Stat spells only give +5 below 310 skill. Once you hit 310 skill, Gain-spells give +1 more stat every 10 levels of Enhancing Magic. Maybe the same will be for Temper. Maybe after we hit 410 Enhancing, we get +1%DA every 10 enhancing magic? Seems plausible since almost every Enhancing spell scales somehow with Enhancing Magic except Blink or Aquaveil. But both Gains and Temper start at a value of 5 so maybe that's a clue that Temper will increase past a certain tier?

[saevel]

The only saving grace for Temper is if it scales MASSIVELY past a certain Enhancing Skill level similar to how Gain-Stat spells only give +5 below 310 skill. Once you hit 310 skill, Gain-spells give +1 more stat every 10 levels of Enhancing Magic. Maybe the same will be for Temper. Maybe after we hit 410 Enhancing, we get +1%DA every 10 enhancing magic? Seems plausible since almost every Enhancing spell scales somehow with Enhancing Magic except Blink or Aquaveil. But both Gains and Temper start at a value of 5 so maybe that's a clue that Temper will increase past a certain tier?

Umm dude did you just completely MISS the last few pages?

Seriha already did some base testing, and from what we see id DOES scale like the Gain spells. 13% so far that we know of is reachable.

[Ophannus]

Really? When I tested it on the test server with 460 enhancing skill I didn't parse any improvement...

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It didn't in the beginning, but then they updated the server with the scaling-version.

[Ophannus]

Ah that explains it then. I wonder why they ninja patched it instead of telling us formally here on the forums...

[Doombringer]

they did say they were gonna do it here on the forums, though i dunno if they announced WHEN they did it.

more importantly.. where does this scroll come from?! i've heard of the blm scrolls dropping in WoE and hknm battles... but nothing on temper or even gain-str.

it's tearing me apart!!!!

[Hyrist]

Yeah, actually I got word on that. It's a kcnm in monarch lin. Nest of Nightmares.

Also drops from chest in WoE Conflux 10, both according to AH.

Scrolls are starting to fill in now, but I won't be buying quite yet as they're asking for a mil for it, and there's already 4 in Odin's AH.

[saevel]

Yeah the first wave of opportunists, wait for them to pass then the price will fall.

[Ophannus]

I don't have it yet but wiki lists it as Fire Elemental. On the test server it was Light Based, was the icon changed to a red one? Maybe the Temper we had on the test server was a placeholder then if that's the case.

[Doombringer]

it's light

[Kuvo]

I recently got this spell and a Chimeric Fleuret. I gotta say I do enjoy it. When farming and soloing I either /dnc or /nin. I mainhand Joytoy sub Chimeric coupled with a brutal earring + temper + haste and a good selection of haste gear. It makes for a fun time. Deadless to say even at an additional 5% double attack from temper it can add up with coupled with better gear then I have.

But I do hope they either increase it to a standard 10% or make it meritable. Overall I'm not too picky with it. Nice spell to add in our buffs. IMO

[Seriha]

You should really be main-handing the Fleuret, there, as it'll apply the D51 to your WS over Joyeuse's D35.

[Hyrist]

But I do hope they either increase it to a standard 10% or make it meritable. Overall I'm not too picky with it. Nice spell to add in our buffs. IMO

Level your enhancing, 5% is the base value, after 300+ Skill it begins to increase.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Isn't it currently with capped Enhancing, and all the gear 12~14%?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Needs more testing.

[Kuvo]

You should really be main-handing the Fleuret, there, as it'll apply the D51 to your WS over Joyeuse's D35.

If i do that will i lose the latent on the joyeuse? I'll give it a shot and see what happens.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You can offhand joytoy and keep the OAT effect. Although it really is an aged weapon, I'm fairly certain even Mageblade is better damage outside (due to Apoc it loses really badly inside).

[Stylin]

If i do that will i lose the latent on the joyeuse? I'll give it a shot and see what happens.

Joyeuse doesn't have a latent effect. You still get the OAT while it's in the off hand though.

[saevel]

Isn't it currently with capped Enhancing, and all the gear 12~14%?

So far @456 its 12.5 ~ 13%

Fairly positive at that number. Outside that I don't know. The 300 = 5% + .5 per 10 was just a guess of mine based on the results and how I know SE likes to reuse old formulas. It's MP cost and behavior also point towards it being similar to the Gain spells.

Haven't had time to strip gear and test. Unfortunately we're gonna need to find a way to test it at 330~380 enhancing magic as most of us who would do this thing already have it capped and merited.

[Ophannus]

Guessing it'll probably cap out around ~15%ish at 99 assuming 7 skill per level multiplied by 4 levels= 14.5ish%

[Shiyo]

You should really be main-handing the Fleuret, there, as it'll apply the D51 to your WS over Joyeuse's D35.

Should be using a dagger and offhanding joyuese. Evis > lol savage blade.

[Lilia]

hmm... dagger... Death Blossom>evis>salvage for me :)

[Doombringer]

eh... death blossom IS better than savage blade, but evisceration SHOULD be even better than that, and if your in aby it's not even close. if your evisceration is under performing it prolly has something to do with your personal dagger vs. your personal sword. rdm does have a pretty short and sad list of daggers. i was stuck with blau dolch all the way until twilight knife, whereas anyone can put together a respectable sword through the magian trial elemental paths.

[Lilia]

maybe anything is wrong, i have a trial sword and twilight dagger and blossom do more dmg as evis in and out abyssea.
so i use sword main and dagger offhand.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I did as well inside once (have DB beating evis), then I ate food and all was made right in the world.

[Kuvo]

Joyeuse doesn't have a latent effect. You still get the OAT while it's in the off hand though.

Oh no i meant was according to the wiki the latent effect on the Chimeric when main handed only applies to the main weapon. But if you sub the chimeric it will apply to both main and sub no matter if that weapon is multi hit. So if i just main hand the chimeric then i'll lose the double attack boost. Either way i guess the joytoy is dated and i need to focus on getting a different weapon. I do like dagger but nothing fantastic IMO other then twilight to pick from. I don't have DB yet still working on climbing the floors in nyzul. Anyway thanks for the info.

[Swords]

I thought they fixed that with the Chimeric where it effects the weapon hand only?

[Doombringer]

the LATENT effect on the chimeric (the double attack) works on any hand, regardless.

the additional enspell damage however, only effects it. wether you mainhand it or offhand it.

so no, there is no reason to ever offhand the chimeric in favor of mainhanding the joyeuse. ever. at all.






ever.

[saevel]

eh... death blossom IS better than savage blade, but evisceration SHOULD be even better than that, and if your in aby it's not even close. if your evisceration is under performing it prolly has something to do with your personal dagger vs. your personal sword. rdm does have a pretty short and sad list of daggers. i was stuck with blau dolch all the way until twilight knife, whereas anyone can put together a respectable sword through the magian trial elemental paths.

It would be an interesting set of numbers. 5+1 hit Evis with a D40 dagger at 30% DEX WSC vs 3+1 hit DB with a D57 Sword at 50% MND 30% STR. Back at 75 both DB and Evis averaged out the same for me, I think now it would be in favor of DB outside aby (absolute no contest inside due to RR madness). I blame our lack of dagger options for it. If we had the Magian daggers then we could create a set of DEX / STR daggers and be done with it.

[Economizer]

Back at 75 both DB and Evis averaged out the same for me

In my experience, damage rating has little to no effect on Aeolian Edge, so I think the thing to compare to Death Blossom would be that (basically assuming a sub without advanced Sword WS access). So, if it isn't too troublesome, what has been your experience between the damage of AE and DB?

Edit: While I was under the impression Death Blossom was magical (apparently I can't read the description on the wiki despite looking at it a dozen times :() the point I originally wanted to make still stands - when deciding on sword vs. dagger for weapon skill access when you are /NIN or /DNC, which is the better weapon skill, AE or DB?

[Neisan_Quetz]

DB is a physical weaponskill. It's Savage blade with an extra hit and better ftp mostly, and a fairly weak -magic evasion effect which varies by TP.

[saevel]

In my experience, damage rating has little to no effect on Aeolian Edge, so I think the thing to compare to Death Blossom would be that (basically assuming a sub without advanced Sword WS access). So, if it isn't too troublesome, what has been your experience between the damage of AE and DB?

Edit: While I was under the impression Death Blossom was magical (apparently I can't read the description on the wiki despite looking at it a dozen times :() the point I originally wanted to make still stands - when deciding on sword vs. dagger for weapon skill access when you are /NIN or /DNC, which is the better weapon skill, AE or DB?

Yeah lol, its ok we all do it sometimes.

Death Blossom is slightly weaker then Swift Blade but otherwise the same. 50% MND 30% STR 1.25 fTP and three hits.

Aeolian Edge is aoe wind damage, and the "D" value on your weapon has absolutely zero effect on it. A Onion dagger will produce the same AE damage as a Mandau.

Base D is LV+2, then add WSC, multiply by fTP and tack on fINT.

fINT = 8 + (ΔINT*M) were M=.5

For all the older WS's fINT capped at 32 (24+8), but the newer ones with bigger M values don't seem to cap, or it's ridiculously high.

Many of the newer ones have a different M value. Sang Blade is 2.0, Primal Rend and True Flight both are 2.0 and use a different stat (PR is CHR vs INT, TF is AGI vs INT). The rest are unknown.

Multiply by all the percentage multiplies in sequence.

Damage = (( Lv+2+WSC ) * fTP + fINT ) * Resist * Elemental Staves * Weather * MDIF * Magic Damage Adjustment

Typically physical WS's will do more damage then magical ones, as we have no ammo equitable staves. BUT there is a catch, physical WS's attack values cap at a relatively low amount vs magical ones. We haven't found a cap for MDIF yet, even under brews adding more MAB seems to add more damage. Still resists factor heavily in reducing magic WS viability, and while adding accuracy helps in your melee hits for TP it doesn't help in landing magic WS's without resists.

[Economizer]

That was beyond helpful, considering all the information. I hate to sound ungrateful though, but you didn't really answer what your experience has been between the two. I know anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much when comparing numbers, but it is pretty much what I was looking for in this case.


Still resists factor heavily in reducing magic WS viability, and while adding accuracy helps in your melee hits for TP it doesn't help in landing magic WS's without resists.

I think the question here is if Magic Accuracy can lower the resist rates on magical weapon skills (I would guess that it can). If that was the case, short of SE finally releasing the magic affinity shield for all jobs I've been wanting, or increasing damage and hoping for no resists (like wearing a Magic Attack Bonus sword or shield, or off-handing something that works in the offhand with TP Bonus - not sure there are any for Red Mage though), the best option might be to offhand a weapon that gives a ton of Magic Accuracy.

Murgleis (mACC+25) comes to mind, although getting a Mythic weapon just to offhand it is pretty silly (plus it would probably do more in the main). After that you have stuff like the Magian Trail sword with mACC+15, and other gear. Considering that some mixing of stats would probably be better, an Antares might help more (mACC+10, MAB+10), but how much resist rates could (possibly) be affected by Magic Accuracy is a bit of a toss up while having more TP generation (like from the OAT weapon, or a Joyeuse) seems to be a solid option in comparison.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I think it's stripped of all stats in the offhand like relics anyway.

[saevel]

Personal Experience is for Daggers, Evis > Aeolian Edge by far. @85 I was able to get 450~500 outside abyssea with AE in my nuking set. If I used Martials Dagger then I can make it go higher, but your TP damage will suck. Evis I can hit 700+ easily, higher if its a T or below monster. DB I haven't tested in a long time, I'll probably do some of that later. CDC is by far my best WS though, every RDM should making getting access to that a priority. And honestly short of SE giving us access to the EX weapons skills (Vorpal) our sword WS really takes a hit. Evis would beat out DB if we had access to better daggers.

Also to answer your question, yes magic accuracy helps magic WS. It's a generic stat, it effects all spells cast, enspells, and even any additional effects from ammo / weapons you have. This is why I full time the Mag Acc +8 chakram.

[Neisan_Quetz]

My best DB outside was like 1.1k, but it was a EP mob iirc. Inside I think I did 1.2kish on a golem in uleg.

[Seriha]

I've done like 1400 with Joyeuse main-hand, but definitely some DA procs afoot. Either way, a good DB should beat AE on individual mobs, while fighting 2+ would likely favor AE.

[Economizer]

I think it's stripped of all stats in the offhand like relics anyway.

I thought that the Relics and Mythics kept their visible stats in the offhand, but lost Aftermath and hidden stats.


CDC is by far my best WS though, every RDM should making getting access to that a priority.

Thanks for your answer in general, but for a specific reply... Of course CDC is going to be your best weapon skill. :p

I'm still kinda sad that the Empyrean Club doesn't have a damaging WS. The WS it does is like SE suddenly decided that White Mage was going to tank someday. I don't suppose you are an expert on White Mage melee too? I could use some number crunching between Mjollnir and Gambanteinn... actually I'm off the the White Mage forums to ask. :(

[Neisan_Quetz]

Pretty sure relics lose all stats, Kikoku I am almost 99% confident becomes statless in the offhand. They lose hidden damage boost as well.

[saevel]

I thought that the Relics and Mythics kept their visible stats in the offhand, but lost Aftermath and hidden stats.



Thanks for your answer in general, but for a specific reply... Of course CDC is going to be your best weapon skill. :p

I'm still kinda sad that the Empyrean Club doesn't have a damaging WS. The WS it does is like SE suddenly decided that White Mage was going to tank someday. I don't suppose you are an expert on White Mage melee too? I could use some number crunching between Mjollnir and Gambanteinn... actually I'm off the the White Mage forums to ask. :(

Mjollnir entirely.

SE gave WHM the best 1H WS in the game along with the highest DMG 1H weapon in the game. Only thing stopping WHM is a critical lack of gear, they have even less then RDM does.