[dev1024] Job Adjustments - Scarlet Delirium

[Zoner]

I got accepted to the test server today, so naturally as a DRK main I wanted to see this new ability SE gave us, so here's some info on it

Dark Knight

Scarlet Delirium (Lv. 95)
*Channels damage taken into enhanced attack and magic attack.
*Recast 3 minutes
*Duration 1 minute


Notice the duration in bold, ya 1 min....three words I got for this:
So.Much.FAIL.

[Dart]

at least its a minor step in the right direction.

[NeoLionheart]

at least its a minor step in the right direction.

I don't have much to comment on the new ability at the moment due to not seeing it in action. But, LOL if I had a nickel everytime I've heard that phrase after a drk update....

[Chriscoffey]

I don't have much to comment on the new ability at the moment due to not seeing it in action. But, LOL if I had a nickel everytime I've heard that phrase after a drk update....

Yeah but the sad fact is everytime we move an inch forward in the right direction every other job that DD moves a foot ahead.

[NeoLionheart]

Yeah but the sad fact is everytime we move an inch forward in the right direction every other job that DD moves a foot ahead.

Exactly my point. :P Well on the bright side, at least now we can voice our opinion about it on the test server? Still downloading at the moment.

[Dart]

honestly the LR adjustment was such a huge boon that this was more than I had anticipated. We are really only missing a crit based ws be it empy or normal ws for abyssea purposes. Outside abyssea drk rocks pretty hard. War is still king but we pretty much got bumped up into the top 3-4, the deciding factor being if other dd's are getting ghorn + af3+2 hand marches or not

(inb4 flames of judgement)

[Gallus]

Suggestion to SE (hope you see this):

Change Scarlet Fever to work more like Sublimation. Activate to begin tracking damage taken, activate a second time to apply damage buff for a 1 minute duration. Thanks, that's all.

[Selzak]

Can you explain how the JA actually works so far?

[NeoLionheart]

For the record, Absorb-Attri is pretty cool. Might merit dark seal to see how well they pair together on more resistant mobs.

However I dont understand Scarlet Delirium, do you activate it at 50% HP? At anytime while you are taking damage? Not sure on the best application for this...

[Dart]

yea I'm looking forward to my dark magic build that I lug around to actually be worth a damn again (fuck off for absorb tp nerf). I'm really looking forward to screwing around with absorb attribute.

[Armangetto]

I did some testing on Scarlet Delirium and honestly I couldnt tell if i was doing more dmg or not. I went into Abyssea Grauberg to test it out on the crabs there. Just went in with no buffs other than hp and stat buffs and used Queitus. Its dmg stayed about the same. Earlier I went to Abyssea Altepa used a fanatics, poped soul eater while Scarlet Delirium was active and I still didnt notice any increase in dmg beyond what soul eater gives. This was on the sand sweepers. I dont think soul eater affects it but Ill do more testing.

On side note, break is fun to use. Also with Absorb-Attri I stole a crabs metal shell move, but as soon as it died it wore off. Granted it was like 1 hit away after I stole it. It makes me think the buff stolen from a mob only lasts till the mob is dead or the set timer runs out. Ill do more testing.

[Rezeak]

I tested it annnnd it's up there.... with tactical parry

At most it's +10% DMG it was hard to tell either way u have to lose alot of HP to maybe see an effect is totally fail and in no way useful.

Either way this serves no use to DRK what so ever either wasted dev time on a useless DRK Ability hurts.

Again SE if you are gonna add minimal to useless stuff to DRK just forger i'd rather u save FFXI limited space for decent updates

Anyway heres the math

u can have it up 1/3 of the time then if u can instantly max it out it's a 3.3% DMG boost but in reality this is a 1% boost in DRK DMG at most.

Heres the kicker the TP->DMG or the JA for MAB are far better JAs that this because there sitituational this is like totally useless well maybe 1% useful :P

Side note: I tested on low level mobs. will test on something tougher in a sec ^^

Update tested on Tough mob noticed no difference... i doubt that the ja is a 20% boost as prev post proclaimed i'd say 10% is possible but so hard to notice.

[Cljader1]

fail complete and utter FAILURE!! Its sad to hear

[Cljader1]

three things to fix drk, give us drain 3, dreadspikes II and fix quietus...that is all

[NeoLionheart]

Break is nice, Absorb-Attri is VERY nice (favorite drk addition by far, it's so good). But Scarlet Delirium hasn't impressed me yet, mostly due to not knowing exactly how it works. I heard an idea being tossed around involving a charge system like Sublimation where damage deal to you = charge, then when its full you activate it for whenever you need the damage boost. I would approve of this idea if it was implemented.

[Dart]

I just want one thing for drk, and I honestly don't care about anything else. A solid crit based multi hit ws.

[Urteil]

Break is nice, Absorb-Attri is VERY nice (favorite drk addition by far, it's so good). But Scarlet Delirium hasn't impressed me yet, mostly due to not knowing exactly how it works. I heard an idea being tossed around involving a charge system like Sublimation where damage deal to you = charge, then when its full you activate it for whenever you need the damage boost. I would approve of this idea if it was implemented.

Can you please tell me the following.

Whats the cast time, recast time and mp cost on Absorb-Atrri?

Does using it with Bale Flanchard +2 allow the absorption of three buffs?

[NeoLionheart]

I'll put that on my list of things to do today.

[NeoLionheart]

Even with the bale flanchard +2, it doesn't seem to absorb more than 2 enhancements. Only thing I've noticed is that it always absorbs what you currently don't have already.

[Sophocles]

I was soloing some crabs in Abyssea - Grauberg with Scarlet Delirium and I noticed no real difference with it off or on. The duration seems to only be one minute, which seems like a problem. Is it possible that the damage increases wouldn't come until after a certain time has past that would exceed its current duration because the modifier for attack bonus when hit is too low to be noticed? Maybe the SE developers need to do some more math or increase its duration. But I think there needs to be more ways to increase the damage output. Does this apply to weaponskills? We need an increase to our weaponskills.

I like Absorb-ATR though, but maybe I think it should absorb maybe more attributes (up to 5) depending on one's Dark Magic skill rather than making it cap at 2!

[Nightfyre]

Eyeballing damage isn't going to give us concrete data unless you're willing to do some very tedious parsing, but there is a method that can. /ra damage is basically static at capped pDIF. Find a zone that has both a high-level monster (to damage you) and a nearby low-level monster (to test with). Use a crossbow and compare damage with/without Scarlet Delirium. Tests on magic won't require any special equipment.

I used West Sarutabaruta mandies and T2 VNMs to conduct some brief tests earlier. After taking ~half of my HP in damage, my ranged attacks on the mandies did 13.3% more damage (170 vs 150, possible 35/256 enhancement when accounting for flooring?). Absorb-INT went from 22 absorbed without Scarlet Delirium to 30 with it up and most of my HP lost. I also tried Blizzard III but couldn't seem to get higher than a 3% bonus, didn't get a chance to test magical WS but I do intend to go back and Herculean Slash a few NMs eventually, as well as reviewing my other tests if no further information has arisen from properly structured tests. However, it will be a few days before I can do so.

[Rezeak]

While you can go on about solid numbers or parsing we're talking about how the duration is too short to have any use.

We can all presume the DMG bonus is between 10-20% from all the limiting testing that been done and that's all i need to know to say this ja is useless to incredibly situational.

[Urteil]

While you can go on about solid numbers or parsing we're talking about how the duration is too short to have any use.

We can all presume the DMG bonus is between 10-20% from all the limiting testing that been done and that's all i need to know to say this ja is useless to incredibly situational.

---
Derp. +1

[Melraen]

From what I've seen so far, Scarlet Delirium's duration appears to be extended by the current duration of Souleater when you use it. When I used Souleater then Scarlet Delirium right after it lasted almost a second or so off 2 minutes. I tried waiting about 30 seconds into Souleater before using it, and it lasted around 1 minute 30 seconds. ^^

Edit: Tried it the other way around, with Scarlet Delirium first and then Souleater and it lasted round 1 minute 30 as well... Certainly seems Souleater has some effect on the duration though. ^^; Also, it only appears to extend the duration while you're actually attacking stuff, they both wear at the same time when I try it while not attacking.

[Rezeak]

Here we go ....

Once used it has 1 min to be activated (aka for you to take any DMG)
Once you take DMG you gain the effect which could mean it's not based off total DMG but only the first hit you take
(will try in abyssea)

Maybe i presumed too early with this :P

[Rezeak]

Here we go

Before Crit 146, 136, 147 Infernal Scythe 531

Took 1364 DMG (Meltdown)

After Crit 168, 152, 130 Infernal Scythe 730

Not really enough data from melee but u can kinda see the increase is there

But with I.Scythe it increased DMG by 37% :O

Seems you need to take all the DMG in one hit.

Edit : Have a feeling Day may of proced against that

H.slash 344 (904 taken (26% hp lost) ) H.slash 388 12% inc
H.slash 344 (115 taken ) H.slash 347 1~% inc
H.slash 344 (1298 taken (37% hp lost) ) H.slash 404 17% inc
IScy 316 (1268 taken (28% hp lost) ) IScy 360 14% inc

That'll do for me anyway seem to give a DMG boost based on % Hp lost (Go go Neither Void + SD?)
Either way it seems usless still least we have a strong idea of how it works

btw it is based of 1 hit this was easily tested by using SD then Taking DMG using Elemental WS taking more DMG and WSing agian the 2 WS were the same.

[NeoLionheart]

Seems you need to take all the DMG in one hit.


take all the DMG in one hit.


one hit. Don't think I like the sound of that.

[Urteil]

Don't think I like the sound of that.

Its still shaping up to be the crappiest ability ever.

[Dart]

bully says hi! (lol)

[Urteil]

bully says hi! (lol)


At least bully actually works.

Without having to kill yourself, to make the crap flow.

[Zoner]

bully says hi! (lol)

I got to try out bully vs Shinryu, it was quite awsome, killed it without him managing a single attack

[Nightfyre]

That explains the abysmal results I had with elemental magic, I never took more than ~150 damage (~10% of my HP) in a single hit during those tests. Pretty sure I got hit with a spell for the /ra and Absorb-INT test though.

Quick test using 1k Needles with a max HP of 1580 (63.29% of my HP lost) yielded a 30.86% increase in damage. I'll check spells and magic WS tomorrow.

[Madawc]

1. Try with Plastron equipment, see if it enhances.
2. Try with Dread Spikes up, see if it enhances.

[NeoLionheart]

1. Try with Plastron equipment, see if it enhances.
2. Try with Dread Spikes up, see if it enhances.

+DMG taken equipment? Interesting way to go about it I suppose.

[Madawc]

Numbers inc!

I got a Crossbow and darksteel bolts. constantly pulling off 321 dmg on mobs in North Gustaberg.
Popping VNM "Ground Gruzzler". I wait for him to start cating quake, stone or stonega and I pop Scarlet Dilirum.

Base Rng.Dmg: 321


Base Rng.Dmg: 321

Indmg Outdmg Diff DmgUp% Diff% Diff%/InDmg

487 362 41 12.77 0.0841 0.0262

595 372 51 15.88 0.0857 0.0266

718 385 64 19.93 0.0891 0.0277

955 407 86 26.79 0.0900 0.0281


Damage boost seems to be 8-9% of dmg taken, depending on how much damage is taken. (More dmg more %)

[Rezeak]

Madawc mind posting your HP
from my finding it should be around 1400ish.
Either way i'm pretty sure the buff is based on hp% lost not hp lost

I used damage taken gear in my test and the result still stayed in trend

[Madawc]

Its around 1800.

[Bayohne]

"Scarlet Delirium" features the previously unused ability of turning received damage into a benefit, so we understand that players will take some time to adjust to its effects.

We added Scarlet Delirium as a technical ability that is useful when fighting very strong opponents in new content such as Voidwatch and HNMs.

In many cases, dangerous special abilities and magic that are used by the opponent can be halted by Stun, but there are instances where Stun does not work or cannot be cast due to recast timers. There are also instances where players will have to take the damage from some attacks in order to stop more powerful attacks instead.

With these difficulties and risks involved, instead of raising attack and magic attack stats, damage dealt to the opponent (*1) will receive a direct bonus of certain %(*2).

We have determined that the time period for taking damage while the ability is active at 60 seconds is too short, so we extended the period to 180 seconds.

Also, regarding players’ requests to accumulate the damage received, we thought about this at first, but since this lowers the risk involved, the bonus would have to be reduced in return. Thus, we decided against that and implemented the current specs.

The updated data is now reflected on the Test Server, so give it a shot.

*1 This includes regular attacks in addition to weapon skills.
*2 The maximum limit for this bonus is not 20%. The limit is set much higher, and the closer you are to dying, the more damage is dealt to the opponent.

[Economizer]

Not to pass any actual judgement on the ability, but, a correction:


"Scarlet Delirium" features the previously unused ability of turning received damage into a benefit, so we understand that players will take some time to adjust to its effects.


Afflatus Misery has a limited effect of turning received damage into a benefit. Of course, this effect is based on one hit, and is mainly used for Cura, but it can be used to slightly improve Banish potency as well.

[Nightfyre]

Also, regarding players’ requests to accumulate the damage received, we thought about this at first, but since this lowers the risk involved, the bonus would have to be reduced in return. Thus, we decided against that and implemented the current specs.
It would have to be nerfed pretty hard to give a lower average bonus I think... Yes, there are many monsters with ridiculously damaging attacks, but there's a lot of content where you can't or won't take the kind of high damage needed to unlock this ability's potential. It won't even be worth using most of the time as is and may not even be worth using in the appropriate situations since you'll just cap hate faster and get wrecked or be forced to lower your damage output.

[Madawc]

"Scarlet Delirium" is useless. We will never give DRK anything worthwhile anyway. Go cry emo kids

Thx, this will make my comeback decision more clear ;)

[Madawc]

New numbers tho!



Base Rng.Dmg: 321, 1789 HP

Indmg Outdmg Diff DmgUp% %HPlost

447 359 38 11.8 24.986%

491 362 41 12.7 27.445%



Base Rng.Dmg: 321, 2053 HP

Indmg Outdmg Diff DmgUp% %HPlost

461 356 35 10.9 22.455%

613 365 44 13.7 29.858%


Also: Did convert after I get nuked to get less HP, didnt change a thing.

[Atoreis]

Also, regarding players’ requests to accumulate the damage received, we thought about this at first, but since this lowers the risk involved, the bonus would have to be reduced in return. Thus, we decided against that and implemented the current specs.

How about at least change this to higher damage overwrite lower. It's kinda stupid that you got hit with 20 damage just before 1500 and you will get bonus based of that 20... Higher damage should overwrite lower.

[Urteil]

How about at least change this to higher damage overwrite lower. It's kinda stupid that you got hit with 20 damage just before 1500 and you will get bonus based of that 20... Higher damage should overwrite lower.

Wait so if I get hit for 1500 damage, and then get hit for 20 damage .5 seconds later.


I get the bonus of 20 damage despite having lost ALL my HP?


What about Drain and Aspir, does this ability effect that too?


THIS IS STILL USELESS.


Limit the cap to 20%, limit it to 15%.





This is really close to being good, please stop making this ability useless SE.


There needs to be cap, and once that cap is reached via taken damage you have that much more offensive ability.

Or that the highest amount of damage recieved for a limited period of time is what the bonus is based on.

What if I have a DoT on? Does that overwrite the previous 1500hp hit?

This is just god damn silly.

[Madawc]

"The limit is set much higher, and the closer you are to dying, the more damage is dealt to the opponent."

This can be misinterpreted. I have tested by getting nuked by 447 dmg and ending up below 100HP. And the DMG is still only proportional to the HP lost.



Base Rng.Dmg: 321

Indmg Outdmg Diff DmgUp% Diff% Diff%/InDmg

487 362 41 12.77 0.0841 0.0262

595 372 51 15.88 0.0857 0.0266

718 385 64 19.93 0.0891 0.0277

955 407 86 26.79 0.0900 0.0281


Base Rng.Dmg: 321, 1789 HP

Indmg Outdmg Diff DmgUp% %HPlost

447 359 38 11.8 24.986%

491 362 41 12.7 27.445%



Base Rng.Dmg: 321, 2053 HP

Indmg Outdmg Diff DmgUp% %HPlost

461 356 35 10.9 22.455%

613 365 44 13.7 29.858%


Base Rng.Dmg: 321, 1737 HP

Indmg Outdmg Diff DmgUp% %HPlost

447 359 38 11.83 25.73

718 385 64 19.94 41.34

955 407 86 26.79 54.98

[Urteil]

Let's say you take 955 damage and gain that bonus of 27%?

If you get hit for 1 damage .01 seconds after it completely resets the bonus right?

[Rezeak]

"Scarlet Delirium" features the previously unused ability of turning received damage into a benefit, so we understand that players will take some time to adjust to its effects.

In some ways yes but there are large flaw in the way you want us to use this.


We added Scarlet Delirium as a technical ability that is useful when fighting very strong opponents in new content such as Voidwatch and HNMs.

In many cases, dangerous special abilities and magic that are used by the opponent can be halted by Stun, but there are instances where Stun does not work or cannot be cast due to recast timers. There are also instances where players will have to take the damage from some attacks in order to stop more powerful attacks instead.

Stun has 20 distance casting range so if i need to stun but a mob uses a powerful attack i don't "have to take the damage from some attacks in order to stop more powerful attacks instead"

Secondly now you are implying that after a Large AoE or such a DRK will gain a 1 min DMG boost which is decent and i will agree the scale of the buff is fine and that hasn't been the issue the issue is when we take this large DMG we should run out range of AoEs and defintly not pull hate... this sytle of play you are trying to encourage is the very style of play the makes WHMs not want to cure DRKs :(.

Like i said before if the intial SD had a DMG reduction feature 20-100%(on teh 1 hit the buff is based on) then it would make being in range a worthwhile thing and it would even push DRK into more than just a stagger job.

Basically the way i see your giving us an ability that allows us to become one of the best DDs on some of the hardest mob forgetting the main things with these mobs is staying alive and linking it to taking DMG without a form of DMG reduction means it works against most party's Strategy and in total adds nothing to DRK in a VW or HNM area this is why we're saying it's useless.

To clarify the duration of the buff is still 1 min but you have 3 mins to take the DMG.

[Rezeak]

Let's say you take 955 damage and gain that bonus of 27%?

If you get hit for 1 damage .01 seconds after it completely resets the bonus right?

Nope if the 955 is the first DMG after u used SD you will keep the 27% buff for the 1 min

[Selzak]

To clarify the duration of the buff is still 1 min but you have 3 mins to take the DMG.
How the hell does this ability work, exactly? I'm still very confused about it. A step-by-step explanation/examples would be very appreciated from anyone with access to it.

[Madawc]

You pop ability, icon is red-circle (absorb mode), after 1 hit, it turnst into a sword icon. From there on you got a +%dmg on melee and magic attacks.

This could just be a job trait IMO that gives a boost to dmg for severly inflicting damage, like the dmg a NIN can nullify...

Having more abilities and spells which "halts" regular swinging is just retarded now...

[Chriscoffey]

Thx, this will make my comeback decision more clear ;)

Hey at least that is an honest reply... it sure feels like it sometimes over the last few years since the newest development team looks at dark knight differently than the first one did.

[Selzak]

Why would they increase the duration of the absorb on that to 180 seconds...? Three minutes to take a single hit, right? Then it turns into the sword icon for 60 seconds?

That just doesn't make much sense...

[Madawc]

Yes, you pop and and wait to get AoE'd. Or "tactically" use it faster then an enemy can WS you directly while tanking.

Either way, it is a stupid way of implementing it. upto ~500 dmg you only get 13% dmg boost. You want atleast 20% for get that minute worthwhile. Should you lose 99% of your HP you are looking at +49% dmg for 1 minute.

If SE had some brains they would make this a Job TRAIT which procs if you lose more then 50% of your HP. Like NINs Migawari: "severely damaging attacks."

[Selzak]

Looks like yet another good idea given a completely impractical and almost unusable application for DRKs to sit on in their long list of abilities and spells, while they sit there thinking about what could have been and watch other jobs do the things they play the job with the intention to do (SAM inflicts plague, WAR does spike damage, BLU helps out with unique enfeebles, THF stuns the enemy with Bully, etc...).

[Muras]

You know... I don't think I want this ability. I don't want to play DRK like this. Can't SE see that this is terrible? This isn't going to help anyone, the DRK or his party. If anything you'll see situations like this:

*Mob begins casting Blizzaga IV*
DRK: Ooooh!
*DRK runs into range*
*Everyone in range eats Blizzaga IV*
Everyone else: Why didn't you stun that!?
DRK: Pft, Scarlet Delirium of course! Derp.

Of course, only terrible DRKs will do that. I myself on the other hand will just never use the stupid ability. I'm not going to endanger myself and possibly my party by purposely acting stupid and getting myself killed. SE is basically asking us to act like idiots with this ability.

I dunno about other players, but I find it a little insulting that I'm being told I can't possibly be playing or doing it "right" because something is new and that it'll take me time to adjust to the effects. This game is 9 years old, and I've been playing since PC launch (October 30th 2003, says so right in my SE account for Rise of the Zilart pack). I also study game design and business in real life. I'm not trying to be elitist, but I'm trying to stress that I and many other players have enough experience to know when something isn't right. It only takes a little imagination to know exactly how to use something, especially in a 9 year old game. Mob AI isn't gonna suddenly change because of this ability. NIN isn't gonna tank any differently. WHMs aren't gonna heal any differently. It's easy to see exactly where this ability has it's uses, and it's not many.

I just don't understand why I have to "risk" so much on DRK for something that isn't even mediocre. I hate this sacrifice and risk theme. DRK is supposed to be a job that's powerful and selfish, the total opposite of sacrifice. It's PLD that's supposed to be sacrificing itself for the well-being of his comrades. I don't think I care what the dev team says, they are wrong. Both in theory and in design. I'm not trying to insult them by saying that though, I have a great respect for them and what they've done... They've made a great game overall. But nobody is perfect, and in this case they're just dead wrong. Case in point: You know their vision of balance is off when they feel taking most or ALL our TP for an ability is a good thing, but if you go in the other direction and give a little TP (Like SCH's Adloquium) all the sudden it's a big problem.

We have many DRKs trying to make it better, with so many great ideas. Even if the Dev team thinks something is overpowered, let's just TRY it in it's "overpowered" state on the test server and find out. That's what the darn thing is for isn't it? Let's try to start from the high end of things and tone it down IF it needs it, rather than starting from the bottom. We'll get better results that way.

At this point it's obvious they're just being stubborn. And I know they ARE trying to listen at least. But please, can't they just give us the benefit of the doubt? I want them to take some of the ideas we've given, overpowered or not, and add them to the test server. Best case scenario is a community rep creates a thread asking for everyone to post fixes and they all come under review by the dev team, and they add them to the test server to see if they're really good ideas or not.

I really believe we won't get any real results unless all us DRKs fight against this sacrifice and risk theme. We've had 15 levels of virtually nothing since 75, soon to be 20. After that, we have only 4 more levels to get something useful. Time is running out. If we want cool and useful stuff like what SAM is always getting, we gotta get rid of the sacrifice and risk theme. If DRK is at 0, and the buff is +1 and the sacrifice is a -1, what do you get? We're still at 0.

[Raucent]

In many cases, dangerous special abilities and magic that are used by the opponent can be halted by Stun, but there are instances where Stun does not work or cannot be cast due to recast timers. There are also instances where players will have to take the damage from some attacks in order to stop more powerful attacks instead.
[/COLOR]

lets see as far as moves we would stun vs take the pain on

Throat Stab
Citadel Buster
Spike Flail
the tonberry Rancor/grudge moves
Comet/Meteor
etc

the only real "heavy damage" spells we cant block

would be NMs immune to it such as some of the NMs in abyssea or some minor use in Campaign Battle/besieged
the only really non stunnable moves we would eat the damage on would be 2hr moves such as Avatar 2hrs (damn you Ogopogo 1% Tidal Wave) or other similar attacks

[Raucent]

gotta agree with ya Muras it would seem that we are getting passed over on several fronts:

their argument on our survivability with Stun wep Bash and Spikes is kind of null, Stun every 45 secs if you are NOT using Hasso/Seigan. Dread Spikes only works against physical attacks up to 1/2 of max HP, Tactical Parry with D rank Parry ... no point in explaining, add to that that we are giving up 25+% of our defense for Last Resort's haste and attack boost.

Drains while useful do also have a longer recast timer than cure and they are completely USELESS on undead or dark resistant mobs

Blood Weapon WAS very potent paired with Souleater agaianst several NMs back in '05 but with current NM's becoming resistant to SE after a few hits its not helpful, add to that that just like Drain it is Useless against any Undead

as far as their whole Sacrifice for a gain idea, I could get behind it if the sacrifice and Gain balanced out with the other jobs power boosts, as you said however there is no way in hell a smart DRK would let heavy AoE damage hit the PT for ANY sort of power boost at the expense of the whole pt

[NeoLionheart]

You know... I don't think I want this ability. I don't want to play DRK like this. Can't SE see that this is terrible? This isn't going to help anyone, the DRK or his party.....

.....SE is basically asking us to act like idiots with this ability.

.....I dunno about other players, but I find it a little insulting that I'm being told I can't possibly be playing or doing it "right" because something is new and that it'll take me time to adjust to the effects.

....I just don't understand why I have to "risk" so much on DRK for something that isn't even mediocre.

.....We have many DRKs trying to make it better, with so many great ideas. Even if the Dev team thinks something is overpowered, [b]let's just TRY it in it's "overpowered" state on the test server and find out.

At this point it's obvious they're just being stubborn. And I know they ARE trying to listen at least. But please, can't they just give us the benefit of the doubt? I want them to take some of the ideas we've given, overpowered or not, and add them to the test server. Best case scenario is a community rep creates a thread asking for everyone to post fixes and they all come under review by the dev team, and they add them to the test server to see if they're really good ideas or not.

I really believe we won't get any real results unless all us DRKs fight against this sacrifice and risk theme. We've had 15 levels of virtually nothing since 75, soon to be 20. After that, we have only 4 more levels to get something useful. Time is running out. If we want cool and useful stuff like what SAM is always getting, we gotta get rid of the sacrifice and risk theme. If DRK is at 0, and the buff is +1 and the sacrifice is a -1, what do you get? We're still at 0. Couldn't of said it better myself, hit it right on the nose.

[Muras]

In many cases, dangerous special abilities and magic that are used by the opponent can be halted by Stun, but there are instances where Stun does not work or cannot be cast due to recast timers. There are also instances where players will have to take the damage from some attacks in order to stop more powerful attacks instead.

I forgot to go into a little detail with this too. Yes, there're moves we can't stun. However, like in the past, our party will often ask melee to be outside of range and only to run in and WS in order to avoid those impossible to stun moves, because getting hit with those AoE is stupid. Just because we have incentive to now ignore this, doesn't mean we're going to do it. This will only hurt DRK. People will get the mindset that it'll be easier to just avoid bringing DRK altogether to make sure someone doesn't try to make use of Scarlet Delirium. Those WHMs will still have to suddenly cure someone they otherwise wouldn't need to cure, you know? MP is precious outside Abyssea. Nobody will enjoy healing me. My drains certainly won't help on "very strong opponents", either.

[Selzak]

They think that we (along with others, like THF namely) just don't understand why the changes they're making are good ideas. It's happened like this for a long, long time. It seems like eventually they'd grasp the fact that they're doing it wrong.

We've given you several years to create a role for DRK to fill, how about you start taking our ideas seriously for a change? Job balance in FFXI has never been well thought out, but at this point it's just atrocious. SE needs to take a fresh look / new angle on more than a couple of the jobs- especially DRK.



The problem is that instead of different jobs filling different roles, you just have jobs that are good and jobs that aren't. Generally, the jobs that are strong can do it all- while the jobs that are weak can't do any of it.

Case in point: the glass cannon BLM will out damage a DRK, and that's fine..but it can also spend 30 minutes soloing things if it wants. SAM will also out damage DRK in many situations, but it doesn't sacrifice a damn thing for it- it even got one of the best survival abilities in the game with Seigan + Third Eye. NIN deals more damage than a party of PLDs put together, and it also tanks better. DRK is supposed to be an offense-oriented WAR, but WAR will put out more damage with one WS than a DRK could hope to dish out while digging through its superfluous bullshit for five minutes. RNG spends tons of gil on consumable items to do its job...and it barely even has one now. The devs have said that they don't want to introduce shit all for THFs to use their staple Steal ability on because "THFs may "exploit" this to sell items to NPCs"...WTF is Steal for if not making gil?

The way that you should go about this is by taking each job, putting them each in a variety of (relevant) situations, and asking- Why would I use this job here?

That should be a natural question when balancing jobs and creating these abilities, but I know that they can't be thinking this way because if you ran that test right now you'd see that a handful of jobs can do various things to different degrees, and handful of jobs can do some things situationally, and a few jobs bring almost nothing to the table.

[Urteil]

I'm just so incredibly disappointed, I have no idea what to say.

I hit the ability and then if I get hit for 25dmg thats it for an entire 3 minutes?

....Wtf?

[Selzak]

I'm just so incredibly disappointed, I have no idea what to say.

I hit the ability and then if I get hit for 25dmg thats it for an entire 3 minutes?

....Wtf?
Except that the buff only lasts for one minute, apparently. You have 3 minutes to get hit.

Sometimes it takes time for a mob to get through all of your Tactical Parries, you know.


I have a question for the dev team:
If you're making a party for any given situation, and you have a choice of every job (i.e. there are 6-18 of each job lined up and ready for you to pick them), why would you choose DRK? Unless you want a good Arcana-intimidator, does DRK bring anything unique to the table? Does it do anything better than any other job can? Does it strike some balance by doing something almost as well as another job, while negating a weakness associated with another job that does it better?

You should be able to answer that question for every job, and you should sincerely ask it each time updates roll around.

Pretend like you have to play DRK- What have you really gained overall by switching to the offense-oriented magic hybrid of WAR instead of just staying on WAR? Is it worth it with the way those things work? Pretend like you have to play RNG- what should your money buy you? Pretend like you have to play PLD- why aren't you switching to NIN? Pretend like you have to play THF- what should you be able to do?

...Is it really that difficult to do this?

[Urteil]

DRK has no natural evasion and no natural damage mitigation.


Why the hell do I have three minutes to get hit once?


Do they actually think we parry, due to the useless job trait they gave us?


I'm having a hard time believing ANYONE is this stupid.

[Cljader1]

They couldve just gave us Drain III or Dread Spikes II I wouldve be extremely happy with that

[Armangetto]

They need to change it to where you take multiple hits during the absorb phase to hit a dmg cap. While during the boost phase is a set dmg % boost . LIke 20 to 30%. Also they need to change the timers around. The absorb phase should be 1 min/1 min 30 sec, while the dmg boost should be 2 to 3 mins.

Or leave Scarlet Delirium as is but swap the timers, 1 min for absorb phase and 3 mins for dmg boost phase. Either option should fix Scarlet Delirium Imo.

This ANY one hit during the absorb phase for 3 mins is just fucking stupid.

[Urteil]

"Scarlet Delirium" features the previously unused ability of turning received damage into a benefit, so we understand that players will take some time to adjust to its effects.



I think it is sad they don't even know their own game.

[NeoLionheart]

I think it is sad they don't even know their own game.

I think they meant it's unique that it's the only ability that "benefits" from getting hit with an area of effect attack, unlike counter, retaliation, spike spells etc. At least as far as I'm aware.

Does that make it useful and DRK a desirable party member? Don't hold your breath dev team.

[Atoreis]

If SE had some brains they would make this a Job TRAIT which procs if you lose more then 50% of your HP. Like NINs Migawari: "severely damaging attacks."

The way you writing this implying that Migawari is a job trait. I hope you know it's a spell that works for 1 attack and has a 2 min recast?

My idea for Scarlet Delirium is to make absorb phase a 1 minute long and bonus phase should start exactly after absorb phase not after 1st attack you get. Bonus should be based on highest attack you got in the absorb phase so for example:

1. you turn it on
2. You get some hit for 20, 100, 30 ,50, 90 and 40 sec into absorb mode mob did some TP attack for 1000 damage.
3. After 60 sec absorb mode it check highest recorded damage in this case 1000 and make a bonus based on that

This or like someone wrote make the bonus phase 3min with absorb phase of 60 sec. For now this ability should be used just before some high damaging AoE or TP move so I have no idea why SE made it 3min absorb when they want us to use just before the attack lol. Seriously Camate please ask development team about this.

[Madawc]

Yes I know Migawari is a spell, I was pointing to its use. It procs only when a certain amount of damage is dealt. I suggest SD to be made in to a JOB TRAIT which procs if more then 50% of your HP is lost. This proc last for 1min and next proc must wait atleast 3min.

Or the Job Trait could just accumulate damage taken and decay over time. Like a buffer, you fill the buffer up with damage taken and it bleeds off to zero. DmgUp% is proportional to the buffer. Lowering the cap from 49.9% to 30% would be reasonable.

[Chriscoffey]

They couldve just gave us Drain III or Dread Spikes II I wouldve be extremely happy with that

I would like to think dark knight gets to actually be a zerg damage job again before they jacked up everyone else. I am fine with defensive spells/abilities but their power should come first and foremost as they are suppose to excel at damage over warrior. I am just going to keep on playing warrior till SE understands what the first development team did about dark knight.

[Chriscoffey]

DRK has no natural evasion and no natural damage mitigation.


Why the hell do I have three minutes to get hit once?


Do they actually think we parry, due to the useless job trait they gave us?


I'm having a hard time believing ANYONE is this stupid.
They aren't this stupid.. they just hate dark knight.. different team.. different agenda for jobs.

[Kirschy]

After playing with the JA myself, I'm incredibly unimpressed. The idea behind the JA is great. I think a JA that extends the idea of DRK by taking damage while being able to inflict more damage is right on target. The implementation is just poor.

I would much rather have the JA accumulate damage taken, and have a lower output. (I'd also request a duration increase too... keep the JA buff active for 2-3 minutes, and then an extra 2 minutes for downtime. [2 or 3min up, 2min down.])

Attempting to improve DRK damage during endgame fights isn't going to make them any more desirable than they are today. And it's still going to leave them behind other top tier DDs. I strongly suggest a JA like this is reviewed and changed to bump DRK up a top tier damage dealer, while still maintaining a uniqueness from other DD.

[Zoner]

I think SE has yet to realize tactics that has become standard practice in most endgame linkshells


In many cases, dangerous special abilities and magic that are used by the opponent can be halted by Stun, but there are instances where Stun does not work or cannot be cast due to recast timers.

In such a case we Dark Knights, and most front line melee, are considered undesirable because:

1. We feed TP to the monster in question, increasing the number of times uses its "dangerous special abilities" and raises the chance of a full party wipe.

2. Dark Knights often get invited to NMs that need to be stunned, if it is unstunnable, thats one less invite we get

3. The preferred method of dealing with such NMs is a tank (single or dual-tank), healers and ranged attack/magic, or gain TP from a safe distance and only approach NM to weaponskill.


There are also instances where players will have to take the damage from some attacks in order to stop more powerful attacks instead.

In instances dealing with a NM that has a devastating weaponskill that you must keep in close proximity, what will end up happening is an increase of Samurai used to stand next to the monster but facing away until their TP is @ 100%.

Scarlet Delirium's usefulness is truly situational at best. What we were hoping for is something we can use on a regular basis, whether it be farming, meriting, or End Game NMs; something we cannot accomplish with a short duration and asinine stipulation of only the 1st hit being counted.

In FFXIV alpha/beta we testers had forums like this where we voiced our concerns about the direction things were going, the Devs ignored our advice for the most part and stood fast to their "Vision of how the game should be." I think we all know how that ended up...

[Armangetto]

I agree that Scarlet Delirium should be a JA that can be used on a regular basis. It shouldnt be us waiting for a high lvl HNM to use a high dmg spell / aoe/ or tp move for us to even use this ablity.

Just change it to fixed amount of dmg taken <insert amount of hp loss amount here> (50 to 60%?) during the absorb dmg phase or when the 3 min timer runs out.... lol. Then make it a 20 to 30% max dmg boost for the 1 min.(Again swap the absorb duration with the dmg boost duration.)

[Taint2]

Yes I know Migawari is a spell, I was pointing to its use. It procs only when a certain amount of damage is dealt. I suggest SD to be made in to a JOB TRAIT which procs if more then 50% of your HP is lost. This proc last for 1min and next proc must wait atleast 3min.

Or the Job Trait could just accumulate damage taken and decay over time. Like a buffer, you fill the buffer up with damage taken and it bleeds off to zero. DmgUp% is proportional to the buffer. Lowering the cap from 49.9% to 30% would be reasonable.


I agree. Let it stay up for 3min but only proc on large damaging blows/JAs/magic etc. Or let it accumulate. Its just going to piss DRKs off when they pop it and then take 100 points of damage from the mob.

[Selzak]

I sincerely would rather not even have this ability as it is. It'd just be trash sitting in the JA list. I feel the same way about Tactical Parry.

[Urteil]

I sincerely would rather not even have this ability as it is. It'd just be trash sitting in the JA list. I feel the same way about Tactical Parry.


I feel the exact same way too.

[Thanotos]

or maybe they should make it a stance ja, but with a huge boost to damage, so after taking damage the boost never wears off till you are healed, basically keeping in line with the "risk" factor of running in at low hp on an hnm/voidwatch nm and performing a ws, however, this also runs along the same lines as using soul eater at full hp on a ws. Just that soul eater on a one hit ws dmg is bleh at best.

for example if i am sitting at 100 hp, and i can run in and do 6k dmg ws outside of abyssea, i know that is a lil extreme, but you get the idea.

[Chriscoffey]

I feel the exact same way too.

Urteil I saw your post in the sam forums. I tried telling you they hate dark knight lol. This is just total lack of caring for one job and "golden egg" spooning of many others.

[gigasnail]

interesting idea, horrible implementation. also works in direct opposition to our AF3+2 set bonus, such as it is.

[Chriscoffey]

interesting idea, horrible implementation. also works in direct opposition to our AF3+2 set bonus, such as it is.
Well for most updates to dark they sound decent additions but are always implemented as complete fail. I really doubt they adjust this to what the majority agree is what dark knight is meant to be. They have their own ideas about dark knight and it's apparently the back of the bus mentality.

[Quetzacoatl]

After playing with the JA myself, I'm incredibly unimpressed. The idea behind the JA is great. I think a JA that extends the idea of DRK by taking damage while being able to inflict more damage is right on target. The implementation is just poor.

I would much rather have the JA accumulate damage taken, and have a lower output. (I'd also request a duration increase too... keep the JA buff active for 2-3 minutes, and then an extra 2 minutes for downtime. [2 or 3min up, 2min down.])

Attempting to improve DRK damage during endgame fights isn't going to make them any more desirable than they are today. And it's still going to leave them behind other top tier DDs. I strongly suggest a JA like this is reviewed and changed to bump DRK up a top tier damage dealer, while still maintaining a uniqueness from other DD.

Kirschy and I couldnt have said it better ourselves or better than anyone in these forums. Right Now, Square has got to take these notes if we want to see anything good out of this Job Ability. She's a hardcore Dark Knight, and she damn well knows what she's talking about.

It's rather condescending to say that we'll be able to accept one big hit alone, on our HP to boost our damage, and no further damage accumulated will increase our attack and magic attack. Just one hit, that's it, there's no more damage to take after that? For the 3 minutes we have to get hit? No, we can't see this as contributable to endgame tactics for our endgame linkshells. At all.



Well for most updates to dark they sound decent additions but are always implemented as complete fail. I really doubt they adjust this to what the majority agree is what dark knight is meant to be. They have their own ideas about dark knight and it's apparently the back of the bus mentality.

Last Resort Duration increased to 3 minutes was the best thing they have done for Dark Knight so far. Square needs to try and top that with something everyone can be happy with.

[Leonlionheart]

SE:

Look at the battles you've made. Which one is this ability useful on?

DRK needs some huge enmity reduction to make this slightly usable in it's current form, to the point where no enmity is gained during this period of peak DPS if you want it to perform so great when it would cause a DRK to almost assuredly die.

Edit: That's just one suggestion to make this ability usable.

[Returner]

I just want to make a suggestion, and I think this idea is the exact reverse of what SE has in mind but makes alot more sense so hear me out:

Keep Scarlet Delirium as a JA that is 1 minute with recast timer 3 minutes. However, get rid of the 2 phase property.

Instead, make it instantly take away certain % of the HP, maybe 80%, or 90% of the max HP upon activation, and you get the damage boost right away. At the same time, you get a stoneskin effect equal to the HP you just lost.

However, the damage boost will decrease as you take damage from mob, and as your lose your stoneskin from getting hit, your damage boost is slowly reduced proportionally to your stoneskin.

For example, let's say they make it take away 80% of the HP upon activation for a 40% damage boost and you have 1500 HP:

1) Pop JA, lose 1200 HP upon activation, but at the same time creates a 1200 damage stoneskin, damage is boosted to 40%.

2) If you don't get hit, the 40% stays for 1 minute duration.

3) If you get hit, let's say you take 600 damage, it takes away 600 damage of stoneskin, so your damage boost is now 20%. And if you take another 600 damage, your damage boost is reduced to 0 as your stoneskin is completely gone, and the damage boost is gone before the 1 minute is up.

I think this idea is more practical. One, it makes Drk survive longer with the stoneskin feature, but at the same time you need to also watch for the damage you take so you don't lose the damage boost. It goes in the line of the functionality of the party, and makes this JA an aggressive one that you can use in almost any given time and receive a boost.

I don't think it would be too powerful, but that's what the test server is about, we will test it out.

PS: This way, the JA isn't too passive, and you are not waiting to take damage to get a boost. Instead, you don't want to take any damage, tho you are dealing more damage and naturally you should pull hate. So the way it works prevents it from becoming overpowering since your damage boost is reduced when you take damage. And in a good party, where you get a pld to take damage for you, you have stunners to stun mob AoE, all that will benefit a DRK as it will be a very strong DD. As the functionality of the party becomes less and less efficient, and the DRK takes more and more damage, then the JA becomes less attractive. So it all balances itself out. The more I think of it the more I think it is a great idea.

[Urteil]

You do know that BLU has two darkness based nukes.


And we the ALMIGHTY OCCULT ACUMEN CLASS, have yet to get.


1.

[Jar]

You do know that BLU has two darkness based nukes.


And we the ALMIGHTY OCCULT ACUMEN CLASS, have yet to get.


1.

BLU has 4 Darkness nukes after this update and 3 drains including an AoE drain <3

[Urteil]

BLU has 4 Darkness nukes after this update and 3 drains including an AoE drain <3

It all makes sense.

[Cljader1]

wow blu just gets and gets every update, and drks get ill thought out abilities in a "take it or leave it kind of way." Developers did good job with the absorb attribute but is that all, for god sakes how can you call us the masters of dark magic...and guys sit there and gives blm every useful dark ability under the sun, and blu with a line up of dark nukes and dark spells like doom, complete slap in the face. Doom for blu, for real SE....unbelievable!

[Atoreis]

Maybe I misunderstand how it works but I dont understand what you guy mean that DRK will get killed right after he use it. From my understanding you need to take damage to activate it but then you can be healed to full and have bonus stay for 1 min? The way some ppl talk about this implying you need to stay on red after activation to take advantage out of it. Its pretty easy to time this JA before some AoE or spell that you know you will get hit from and just heal yourself after and take advantage of bonus. Tbh its really not that bad like ppl trying to make it to be. Its pretty much free bonus to damage for damage taken that otherwise would gives us nothing. Maybe you guys should play better or something?



I just don't understand why I have to "risk" so much on DRK for something that isn't even mediocre. I hate this sacrifice and risk theme. DRK is supposed to be a job that's powerful and selfish, the total opposite of sacrifice. It's PLD that's supposed to be sacrificing itself for the well-being of his comrades.


Thats a little off too. This ability is exactly being SELFISH and POWERFUL. You intentionally getting hit w/o thinking about it consequences for a party to gain more power for yourself....

when I think of it this ability is extremely powerful in some fights. For example with mobs that have TP moves taking 90-99% of your HP like Throat Stab. 45+% damage boost for 1min, thats pretty amazing. Most VW mobs cast or do AoE for 700-1k damage and it very easy to get hit by one of it even if you stun most of them. Any fight with Astral flow like Kirin or with Mijin Gakure. It will need some time to learn how to time it well but it's really great JA. Only think I could possibly change in it is some minimum amount of damage we need to take for damage to count. IE: It should ignore every damage that is below 20% of total HP for example and be only activated if we get hit by something stronger. That would be ideal and would actually make sense with 3 min absorb phase because for now 3 min absorb phase is kinda stupid, assuming you wont get any damage on DRK for more than 1min is funny.

[Geabrielle]

Scarlet Delirium makes me cry....

That's all I can say about it until I can find some people to pt up and let me get destroyed so I can find some benefit, any benefit whatsoever to bleeding out my life to fly into a rage of hate dervishness and death. I can see the point that Atories is making, but I also ask why would a WHM waste his or her time curing me to full after I do something as stupid as to not back off like any sensible DD would when I'm about to get tooled, for the sake of an extra bonus and so short a duration? Granted with the current way of doing things the mob will be dead in less than a minute anyway, if its trash, which makes the entire JA a moot point. As for tougher mobs, honestly, using Scarlet Failure is going to turn me as a drk into a bigger MP sponge than whatever tank sacrifice my group is throwing in front of Bignasty McDevilfist.

That being said, I'd like to see the duration extended to match the recast at least on the Test Server. This will give we of the DRK community a chance try to make the best of a cancer ridden, slowly dying corpse that is our Job before it's officially implemented ... with we hope some of the fine suggestions being made.

[Atoreis]

Scarlet Delirium makes me cry....

That's all I can say about it until I can find some people to pt up and let me get destroyed so I can find some benefit, any benefit whatsoever to bleeding out my life to fly into a rage of hate dervishness and death. I can see the point that Atories is making, but I also ask why would a WHM waste his or her time curing me to full after I do something as stupid as to not back off like any sensible DD would when I'm about to get tooled, for the sake of an extra bonus and so short a duration? Granted with the current way of doing things the mob will be dead in less than a minute anyway, if its trash, which makes the entire JA a moot point. As for tougher mobs, honestly, using Scarlet Failure is going to turn me as a drk into a bigger MP sponge than whatever tank sacrifice my group is throwing in front of Bignasty McDevilfist.

That being said, I'd like to see the duration extended to match the recast at least on the Test Server. This will give we of the DRK community a chance try to make the best of a cancer ridden, slowly dying corpse that is our Job before it's officially implemented ... with we hope some of the fine suggestions being made.

Well assuming tough mobs like VW. When you already want to finish it after staggering you wont run from it for every AoE and wont stun all AoE either. I honestly have no idea how this is different from souleater. You lose HP to make more damage. In both cases damage you take is unnecessary and it's up to you if you want to turn it on. If you are using normal weapon with souleater you will lose much more HP overall than from let say 50%HP AoE for delirium. The added damage usually wont be bigger then 25% overall. the ratio for HP lost and damage boost is much worse for Souleater too. Only difference is that for delirium you need to lose that HP in one big shot which also is BETTER because WHM doesnt need to focus on you and keep curing for a period of time like with souleater but only need to cure you one time. Lying yourself that delirium requires taking damage that good player should avoid and using souleater at the same time is most paradoxical thing I ever saw.

[Geabrielle]

Souleater is gradual death, rectified with a Regen 4. Delirium is 'make the mob take a bite outta my butt so I can Super Saiyajin Mode rage' .. and by the way HEY WHM CURE6 NAOZ! Alright a little over the top there, but that's the difference and it is big. Also, I never said to use Souleater in conjunction with Delirium, that's just ... stupid. Delirium does require a DRK to take dmg that might be best avoided in -some- situations. Granted, once the VWNM is staggered, no you aren't going to run, especially if it opens with a hate reset after - you know you are dead and accept that. But for other situations it's not truly ideal. That's what I'm saying. Make the situational JA a bit more functional for general situations or it's just going to sit there with Diabolic Eye in a locked trunk never to see the light of day.

[Returner]

The problem with the JA is that it is passive, you have to wait to get hit. Souleater, despite being a very selfish JA, is something you pop it and you are on it right away. I am with you on the notion that yes, taking unnecessary damage is needed sometimes for extra damage, and there is no reason to cry about that notion. It's similar to WARs retaliation, which I believe is one of the most devastating abilities.

The problem with SD is the element of unpredictability. The mob will use ga, will use TP move, and it can all be stunned. So you can pop it and wait a long time for the damage boost to start running. Not to mention you can very easily get hit for a low amount of damage accidentally either due to Stoneskin after a cure, or some thing in the line of Poisonga II. You add all that together with the 1 min duration and 3 minute recast, you can have very low overall boost to your damage even with the best timing etc etc.

It also doesn't change the style of dealing fast and quick damage on the go, something that DRK is unique for. In a zerg situation, you are either CS stunning the mob, or you have perfect defense, so the JA adds practically nothing on the table in term of high end damage on a short time ON THE CALL. Again, if you don't take damage, you don't get any boost. I rather that the JA automatically takes away a big chunk of HP upon activation and you get the boost right away than having to wait to get hit. That would be more in the line of Souleater type of JA.

I like the idea of the JA, but as some have said, the implementation is bad. I believe working it in reverse would make it ideal as I have mentioned earlier.

[Rezeak]

Honestly I've given up on SE with this idea but i would like them just to confirm they know it's useless.

Tho i'd say there would be so many ways it could be tweaked so that it would work well.

Being able to store the DMG bonus for when you need it.
Example: i use ja and take 1.3k DMG that the DMG bonus is stored till i reuse the ja or use a different ja so i can make the most of it.

Going with that idea i give ya this.

Scarlet Delruim: 3 min recast
Duration : 3 mins
Effect : Stores Next DMG taken.
(Stores as a hp%)

Dark reverb : 3 Min recast
Duration : 1 Min
Effect : Uses DMG Taken for DMG%+ (Cap 40% for 99% hp lost)

Negative reverb : 3 min recast
Duration : Instant
Effect : Uses DMG Taken to shed Enmity (Cap -80% Enmity shed for 99% hp lose)

Abyss reverb : 3 min recast
Duration : Instant
Effect : Uses DMG Taken to restore mp/hp (cap +600hp/300mp for 99% hp lost)

Now the values are pretty high but remeber you need to be left with like 100 hp to recieve the cap
If ya lost 25% hp it would be a 10% DMG increase || 20% Enmity loss || 150 hp/75mp

[Atoreis]

The problem with the JA is that it is passive, you have to wait to get hit. Souleater, despite being a very selfish JA, is something you pop it and you are on it right away. I am with you on the notion that yes, taking unnecessary damage is needed sometimes for extra damage, and there is no reason to cry about that notion. It's similar to WARs retaliation, which I believe is one of the most devastating abilities.

The problem with SD is the element of unpredictability. The mob will use ga, will use TP move, and it can all be stunned. So you can pop it and wait a long time for the damage boost to start running. Not to mention you can very easily get hit for a low amount of damage accidentally either due to Stoneskin after a cure, or some thing in the line of Poisonga II. You add all that together with the 1 min duration and 3 minute recast, you can have very low overall boost to your damage even with the best timing etc etc.

It also doesn't change the style of dealing fast and quick damage on the go, something that DRK is unique for. In a zerg situation, you are either CS stunning the mob, or you have perfect defense, so the JA adds practically nothing on the table in term of high end damage on a short time ON THE CALL. Again, if you don't take damage, you don't get any boost. I rather that the JA automatically takes away a big chunk of HP upon activation and you get the boost right away than having to wait to get hit. That would be more in the line of Souleater type of JA.

I like the idea of the JA, but as some have said, the implementation is bad. I believe working it in reverse would make it ideal as I have mentioned earlier.

Yeah but isnt that gambling and difficulties makes things more interesting and excitement? :)

[StingRay104]

Scarlet Delirium is an incredibly situational ability that requires all sorts of prerequisite conditions to make it even marginally useful. Most of the time your gonna be lucky to get hit with anything more than 100 damage so the idea of basing the ability off 1 instance of taking damage is flawed and thus makes the ability useless. The very thought of letting 1k+ aoe damage spells or abilities that could have been stunned go thru because you want to use such an ability is incredibly flawed due to the fact it brings the party to close to a near wipe situation, not to mention it involves monsters that are just as likely to spam the move again or do something worst and thus negate the use of the ability due to party wipe or your death. Finally how often do ideal situations arise for any ability in the game? Seldom if ever, this game is more luck than anything and with an incredibly specific ability like this we aren't gaining anything but another ability like arcane circle/crest and when was the last time we used those? The concept of a sublimation like status on it is currently flawed by the forum base idea of its implementation so I will correct it.

Scarlet Delirium:
Recast: 30 secs
Duration: 2 hours
Description: Upon using this ability all damage taken is recorded until a certain cap is reached. Upon reuse of this ability a 1 min buff will be placed on the DRK giving it a damage boost to both physical and magical damage based on the damage stored.

There now it works as intended, it can provide the DRK an incredibly potent and highly effective buff, as well as make the limits of its use more accessable to the DRK. Yes the 2 hour duration is just for the initial damage drain icon just like sublimation. Best part about doing it this way as opposed to the other is that you completely remove the dumbest stipulation ever presented by SE, first hit only counts, then we can actually get a decent boost and not just a 3 min fail 99.99% of the time.

[Madawc]

Who here would trade Scarlet Delirium for another job ability that would give you +50% Parry rate at the expense of -50%dmg? (Defencive stance). (*Tactical Parry+10 during effect).

[Atoreis]

Who here would trade Scarlet Delirium for another job ability that would give you +50% Parry rate at the expense of -50%dmg? (Defencive stance). (*Tactical Parry+10 during effect).

And who would trade S Delirium for rocket launcher?

[Cljader1]

And who would trade S Delirium for rocket launcher?

Who would trade S Delirium for a bag of Cheetos?

[Urteil]

Who would trade S Delirium for a bag of Cheetos?

I'd trade Scarlet Delirium for a one dollar bag of sour patch kids.

[Quetzacoatl]

You do know that BLU has two darkness based nukes.


And we the ALMIGHTY OCCULT ACUMEN CLASS, have yet to get.


1.

Yeah, I was hoping we'd get a line of Magic Attacks that were Dark Magic versions of Banish/Holy. My suggestions were:

• Dark Magic - Demi / Demi II / Demi III / Scathe: Deals Dark Magical Damage to an enemy.

I would be glad to use these on the back line more often instead of our lackluster Elemental Magic. Yeah, we have a B skill in it, but the damage with Elemental Magic doesn't match our Melee Damage. Why SE didn't think to give us Magic Attack Bonus as a trait beforehand is beyond me.

Not to mention, I don't think I would consider Drain and Aspir to be "Dark Magic Attacks" the same way Banish and Holy are "Divine Magic Attacks." With Holy II coming out, I wouldn't mind seeing BLMs with Scathe II.

Also, where is Dark Celerity!?

[StingRay104]

I'd trade Scarlet Delirium for a one dollar bag of sour patch kids.

can i have some?

[Quetzacoatl]

I think the JP players agree with us NA players on Scarlet Delirium. I was looking through the JP forums about it via Google Translate, and doing a little research brought me here:


現状レッドデリリアムの効果だと、アビ発動後の被ダメが低ければほとんどダメージボーナスなし、だからと言ってHNM等で大ダメージを自分以外が被弾するのをわかっていてスタンなし、もしくは与TPおかまいなしに突っ込んで行ってWSを誘発等するのは盾役＋ヒーラーから見るとちょっとしんどいかもと思います・・・多分PTの火力UP以前の問題かも。（乱獲時ならなおさら大ダメージを受けることもすくなそう）

と思うので、レッドデリリアムのポテンシャルを活かすなら、、あくまで私感でのフィードバックになりますが、以下のようなアビリティならすごく使いやすくていいんじゃないでしょうか？（アビリティ自体の設計を変えることになるのかもしれませんので、そこはあくまでただの一案ということでご了承くださいね）

レッドデリリアム発動中は被ダメを累積（一定時間）、累積中はダメージUPなし。さらにその被ダメによる累積ダメージを開放できるアビが（例えば学者の机上演習の蓄積→蓄積完了アイコンのようなイメージです）別にあれば、もっと使いやすくなると思います。累積完了から解放するまではしばらくの間（机上演習のように2時間とはいいませんが）累積マークで残ってるとか。ダメージUPは解放時～一定時間持続（例えば1分）とか、そんなイメージだと使いどころが想像しやすかったりします。

暗黒騎士が強くなって欲しいとは思いますが、現状のレッドデリリアムだと、ポテンシャルを活かすためには上手に被弾しないといけない？ような感じを受けますよね・・・・本来のテクニカルさとは真逆行ってる感じがして、このまま実装だとまず使わない（むしろ使うべきじゃない）かも・・・・

Google Translation:



Basically, if i'm reading this right, this post is saying basically all of the ideas and issues we're presenting here: Scarlet Delirium should receive cumulative damage over the course of the duration, with a decaying release with every melee swing or Weapon Skill used. And, being technical with this Job Ability is only going to put the job in an opposite direction of what we want Dark Knights to be able to do for alliance tactics.

This is only an example, but don't take this as a stone-cold representation of what the JPs are saying. I'm not positive that this is the exact context in which this post is presenting, but it looks like it. In fact, here's a better post that summarizes it:


レッドデリリアム

使った後の初弾ダメージ依存だと
使ったと同時にディアガとか来たら目も当てられない(゜ーÅ)
せめてリキャが短ければいいですが、それも微妙となっては
何時使うことを意識したアビなんでしょうか？

希望としては、
①使用時に減っているＨＰ％に比例してダメージアップ
②使用してから上限つきで累積でダメージアップ
①②どちらの場合でも効果時間を２分～３分に延ばして欲しいです。

Google Translation:



Either way, it's safe to say that the JP players aren't happy with Scarlet Delirium either and agree on the idea of Scarlet Delirium taking cumulative damage instead of taking a fixed number damage.

[Atoreis]

I think the JP players agree with us NA players on Scarlet Delirium. I was looking through the JP forums about it via Google Translate, and doing a little research brought me here:



Google Translation:



Basically, if i'm reading this right, this post is saying basically all of the ideas and issues we're presenting here: Scarlet Delirium should receive cumulative damage over the course of the duration, with a decaying release with every melee swing or Weapon Skill used. And, being technical with this Job Ability is only going to put the job in an opposite direction of what we want Dark Knights to be able to do for alliance tactics.

This is only an example, but don't take this as a stone-cold representation of what the JPs are saying. I'm not positive that this is the exact context in which this post is presenting, but it looks like it. In fact, here's a better post that summarizes it:



Google Translation:



Either way, it's safe to say that the JP players aren't happy with Scarlet Delirium either and agree on the idea of Scarlet Delirium taking cumulative damage instead of taking a fixed number damage.

I hope they wont listen the first one. Bonus decaying with every hit is stupid and always was. Knowing SE if they would implement that it would be -5/10% every swing.

[Rezeak]

Just wondering if we'll get an adjustment like bully did to make SD useful for DRK because atm i see no use for this.

The use that SE has posted works against normal party mechanics.

And the fact they said u need to be in range to stun a mob when you stun is a magic spell so u can cast it outside AoE Range.

[Quetzacoatl]

I hope they wont listen the first one. Bonus decaying with every hit is stupid and always was. Knowing SE if they would implement that it would be -5/10% every swing.

The general point is this:

Square, make this ability receive cumulative damage so we don't have to worry about having to be counter-productive in using this ability. What use would it be if healers are only focusing on the more desired DD jobs in the party, such as WARS, NINs, MNKs, etc.? As long as they're alive, what good is DRK using this ability for if we're purposely -trying- to die using it?

One step closer to death is one step closer to being the worst DD ever: one that is dead.

[Urteil]

The general point is this:

Square, make this ability receive cumulative damage so we don't have to worry about having to be counter-productive in using this ability. What use would it be if healers are only focusing on the more desired DD jobs in the party, such as WARS, NINs, MNKs, etc.? As long as they're alive, what good is DRK using this ability for if we're purposely -trying- to die using it?

One step closer to death is one step closer to being the worst DD ever: one that is dead.

One step closer to death is one step closer to being the worst DD ever: one that is dead.

This is going in my signature.

[Urteil]

The fact that we haven't gotten a reply yet is infuriating and disappointing.

[Gamiina]

Selzak: I sincerely would rather not even have this ability as it is. It'd just be trash sitting in the JA list. I feel the same way about Tactical Parry.


Urteil: I feel the exact same way too.

I Agree with Selzak. They can take "Scarlet Delirium" and "Tactical Parry" and find someone else to unload terrible ideas on.

[Rezeak]

I'm all for them just not adding this to DRK and saving the space for something useful.

[Quetzacoatl]

I'm all for them just not adding this to DRK and saving the space for something useful.

Gotta agree on this one; they're dropping the ball here if they aren't taking our advice.

[Cljader1]

I wish they just take this ability away, please SE just cancel this ability we dont want it

[Cljader1]

I just took a look through the blu spell list and they can learn a spell that gives them 8 blink shadows...yeah that right EIGHT, they have so many useful spells and abilities while we get stuck with TRASH----> Scarlet Delirium I'm looking directly at you.

[Nikashi]

I played around with Scarlet Delirium on the test server, and I, too, was severly disappointed. Please, SE... give us something useful instead of this trash. :/

[Kysaiana]

I know I won't be using this JA ever in the increasingly fewer situations where I actually will be on DRK. I'm almost positive the 2 second JA delay would be better used on a normal melee swing than any marginal gain I could get from using SD even in the most ideal situation. As others have said, this JA either needs to record cumulative damage during the "absorb" phase, or simply not exist at all.

[Chriscoffey]

They just like playing mind games with dark knights... this think positive nonsense is just that mind game 101.

[Nightfyre]

I just took a look through the blu spell list and they can learn a spell that gives them 8 blink shadows...yeah that right EIGHT, they have so many useful spells and abilities while we get stuck with TRASH----> Scarlet Delirium I'm looking directly at you.

It costs 138 MP and has a 90 second base recast. Don't get too excited. I almost never use it.

Still holding out for a change to this JA come update time, but I guess we'll see.

[Cljader1]

It costs 138 MP and has a 90 second base recast. Don't get too excited. I almost never use it.

Still holding out for a change to this JA come update time, but I guess we'll see.


90 second recast that sounds like the recast on some of our spells. But its better than Scarlet Delirium, well anything really is better than Scarlet Delirium

[Raucent]

i think tactical [parry says hello

[Nala]

wow... so many things wrong with the execution of this ja...

i'm with the stance/sublimation school as an approach to making this actually worth while, at the very least the whole "accumulate" phase (if you can even call it a phase seriously the first hit?) should be done away with if they are going to keep it near to its current mechanics, instead of just reading a single attack it should keep a running total that keeps pushing you closer to the cap as you take more damage, should also probably be compatible with soul eater (i could foresee them not counting hp lost due to soul eater as "balancing" it), especially if they want to keep it in line with the risk to benefits theme they got going on DRK atm.

though personally i dont see why dark knight needs to have such silly conditions for dealing damage in the first place... just a thought i had a long time ago back before we had a way to give input to the dev's:

in recent years they implemented a job that could convert TP into things other than damage through JA's why not JA's that worked in the same for mp? or at the very least spells specifically made to enhance a DRK's melee damage, personally im not a dark knight so do forgive me for butting into the middle of this especially with an obscure idea but wanted to hear your thoughts on the concept before i decided to expound.

[Dart]

the ja definitely has possibilities, so saying "take it away" is being overreactionary. I'm sure they'll see our general Q.Q over it and eventually fix it. If not drk is still very strong outside abyssea and they're continuing to fix older things with it. Just be patient guys (and gals?).

[gigasnail]

i've 'been patient' with them for long enough, thanks.

[Dart]

I doubt that you've been more patient than I have with the job.

see what i did there?

[Urteil]

I doubt that you've been more patient than I have with the job.

see what i did there?

I've been more patient than any of you.

How I do that.

[Taint2]

I've been more patient than any of you.

How I do that.


DRK is /facepalm but I'll keep grinding with the job.

[StingRay104]

SE to DRKS: Changes to Scarlet Delirium.

We have decided to change Scarlet Delirium in the following ways, during the 3 min absorb phase we will accumulate all damage dealt to the DRK until the cap is reached, then whenever the GMs get bored they can press a button to unleash the recorded damage onto all the DRKs across the servers, enjoy.

I would accept this over what it currently is considering then we would have proof about how much they hate us.

[Chriscoffey]

I am not sure what else to say that hasn't already been said. I know most of you in here from other forums or from my own server on carbuncle. I just don't get why we could say.. improve our ability then some other job comes in ranting how we should stay right were we are and shut up. I never see that sort of shit their forums but it's accepted they get handed these updates regularly.

[Urteil]

There's no reasoning with them. So we'll just scream louder.


What did 6 years of silence get us?


Oh let me see:


Arcane Crest, Tactical Parry II, and an upgrade to a Tier II Merit Category that made it from being useless to very good.


If SE gives me 20% of what the give BLU perhaps I'd have a more 'patient' outlook on things.

Do you think like Samurai? They can start giving us JA's from other jobs and improve them? Like how they turned Wild Flourish into a better version: Konzen-Ittai.


Everyone from the other job forums needs to stay in their own threads and stop hoping that their White Knighting will get them some kind of a favor with the dev team.



I mean look at Paladin THE White Knight,

for fucks sake, its not doing much better.

[Cljader1]

In the Dark Knight Japanese forum there a thread with 115,000 views I wonder what the topic is...oh and SE didnt reply to that thread either

[Urteil]

I went over and looked over the Japanese DRK forum the best I could.

Its good to know since SE will never listen to us, that some Japanese guy out there in the wide wide world.

Is pretty much saying the exact same things we are.



SO LETS JUST KEEP POSTING FOR EFFECT.

[Finuve]

so the people in general are retarded, either way, SD needs fixed, proccing it when you should be stunning is the worst possible thing SE has ever suggested to us

Ultima Weapon is readying citadel buster, hai guys imma stand right next to it and just take the hit cuz SE thinks that makes sense for how DRK should us an ability

[Darriken]

Stop saying for them not to add it. And also stop saying that its going to make you die faster, because that is not true. As far as I see it, I will only be using it in situations where I'd get hit anyway. Like that comment about citadel buster was just stupid. To any smart DRK, it is not going to make them not stun Ga's on purpose for them to get hit. I'd rather them add it and me get 20% boost to DMG in situations where I would get hit anyway then not have it at all. I don't mind getting hit and only getting 10% where i wouldv'e gotten 0% w/o the new Job ability and it's not like i can't just Catastrophe my HP back up or get a single cure?

[Jar]

this thread.. it is .... kinda boring think SE knows already that we don't like it

overall removal makes it so they cant tweak it and make it what it should have been tho so i disagree with just that :x

also SE is busy and almost never replies in job forums so no shock there.

[Urteil]

this thread.. it is .... kinda boring think SE knows already that we don't like it

overall removal makes it so they cant tweak it and make it what it should have been tho so i disagree with just that :x

also SE is busy and almost never replies in job forums so no shock there.

I like your avatar in the signature, I have no idea what it means but I like it.

[Quetzacoatl]

and it's not like i can't just Catastrophe my HP back up or get a single cure?

That may be fine and dandy for you, but what does this say for DRKs without Apocalypses though?

[Urteil]

That may be fine and dandy for you, but what does this say for DRKs without Apocalypses though?

It says that Darriken doesn't really know how the job works/mechanics and is trying to flaunt his relic as if its an actual solution to a very real problem.

The problem of a borderline useless JA.





I have an Apocalypse and the fact I can just cata my health back is irrelevant to this argument:


And the fact that DRK has to get a relic to be 'good' is total shit, and the entire job shouldn't be punished or handicapped because of a singular weapon it can possess and that most people will NEVER see.

[Rezeak]

And the fact that DRK has to get a relic to be 'good' is total shit, and the entire job shouldn't be punished or handicapped because of a singular weapon it can possess and that most people will NEVER see.

Kclub says Hi!!!

I'm sure SE used that as an excuse to hold DRK back in the past lol.

[Urteil]

Kclub says Hi!!!

I'm sure SE used that as an excuse to hold DRK back in the past lol.

Me too. Me too.

[Saiken253]

I personally think that they should change it(as stated earlier) to a Job Trait that converts to the damage you take over time with a cap(say +30%~40% of the damage you do) that decays over time(either gradual- slow regression like 1% per tic) or each swing(again 1% per swing or every 2~3 swings). When I had first heard of this ability I was rather excited because I thought it would work similarly in this way(though again, knowing my favorite job, this was a hopeful wish at best) because I tank actually quite a bit on drk(and don't die haha). So a job that would help me kill the mob faster was a welcome idea for me.

[Urteil]

Have you guys seen steady wing?

[Cljader1]

well it looks like tommorrow's the big day, and as far as I know this ability as it is in its current state is going too be implemented...all I can say is adleast some of us tried to get SE to improve this stinking ability

[Nikashi]

Yeah, I'm not keeping my finger crossed for anything, but we'll see if they changed anything with SD when they release the update notes...

[Dart]

tbh I'll probably forget that we even have it and never use it.

[Quetzacoatl]

tbh I'll probably forget that we even have it and never use it.

Yep, pretty much. :\

The only thing good we've gotten is Absorb-Attri, so we weren't totally gypped this time. But when it came to Scarlet Delirium, all SE could give us was a big "screw your suggestions; deal with it." Just goes to show that indifference makes a big difference indeed.

[Zoner]

Yep, pretty much. :\

The only thing good we've gotten is Absorb-Attri, so we weren't totally gypped this time. But when it came to Scarlet Delirium, all SE could give us was a big "screw your suggestions; deal with it." Just goes to show that indifference makes a big difference indeed.

and yet SE is bending over backwards for SCH...

[Nikashi]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that SE is drooling over SCH and focusing too much on it, and SCH is my other main. I'm glad they're making some changes to it, but I really wish they'd focus on DRK. DRK was my first job to 75, and has been my first job up to each new cap. Would be nice to see some love for it instead of seeing junk like Scarlet Delirium. It's like Dart and Quetz said; it's just more junk that's gonna be put in the corner and forgotten about.

[Quetzacoatl]

You have to admit though, SCH really needed some tuning up. How often would you bring one into Abyssea?

[Nikashi]

Yeah, SCH was in need of attention, but it seemed like SE was like 'OMG SCH needs to be fixed RIGHT NOW!' with this past update. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but they should've gave other jobs that need attention the same treatment. (Not to the same extent that SCH was, but you get my point.) And, actually, I was on my SCH fairly often inside of Abyssea. Then again, it's the only mage I have leveled, so that could be part of it. I've held my own on SCH inside Abyssea both nuking and healing, though.

[Muras]

I'm in a similar boat. I leveled DRK as my main, but eventually ended up doing BLU and SCH down the road. And I dunno, SCH didn't seem as bad as many people made it sound... It's a very capable nuker and healer. It can nuke as hard or harder than a BLM (under the right circumstances anyways), and as far as healing goes... SCH can easily push out 1k+ Cure IVs with rapture and cure potency gear + Aurorastorm. I've main healed and kept up with the cures without breaking a sweat at all. No MP troubles either, even outside Abyssea. ...Although I still want Cure V.

So yeah, I dunno why SE is so gung-ho about SCH and other jobs. It's like they equate our +72 attack bonus into +72% damage or something. I dunno.

But we should still keep making noise about Scarlet Delirium. I think the Devs just think we're stupid and don't know how to use it right yet, as one of the community reps relayed to us earlier. We need to keep making noise about it now that the update is over so they get the picture; We know how it's supposed to be used, and it still sucks.

[StingRay104]

What happened to all the fervor on the general disscusion board, it seems like everyone has just given up.

[Cljader1]

What happened to all the fervor on the general disscusion board, it seems like everyone has just given up.

You can only shout so long before your voice starts to hurt

[Quetzacoatl]

What happened to all the fervor on the general disscusion board, it seems like everyone has just given up.

SE would rather add more mobs than make Scarlet Delolium Delirium not suck, apparently.

As it currently stands, Scarlet Delirium is to DRK as Defender is to WAR. It's not going to be worth using, even in an HNM situation. =\

[Rezeak]

You have to admit though, SCH really needed some tuning up. How often would you bring one into Abyssea?

SCH isn't in abyssea for the same reason u don't take RDM in
because no cure VI/V means ur an inferior healer

BLM does similar DMG and has all the same staggers we have plue aga III and AM so it trumps scholar

The new additions to SCH really helped it outside but then it wasn't really struggling there anyway (Can still heal, can nuke effectively w/ new af3+2 gear combined with it's reduced mp cost on spells ) not to mention sublimation = 9-11 mp a tick :)

[Khadin]

As is SD is laughable... at the very least SE should make it so it only absorbs on high damage like the nin spell... that would follow through with SEs plan for dark better by basicaly daring a mob to hit you hard and if it does you will hit back harder. also the absorb phase duration would make more sence then. still could use 2 to 3 min on activation phase though

[Erecia]

You guys get an ability with no downsides, and you get it just by leveling up and don't have to pay 3-5 mil for a scroll or wait weeks for the price to drop, when all of the jobs I got received either nothing whatsoever or gained abilities that have huge downsides, and you're still complaining about how much SE hates DRK.

I hate the people that play this job. So much.

[Taint2]

I had a 98% damage proc SD today. Damage went from 400 a swing to 680. Super lucky but when it happens it can be pretty badass.

[Nikashi]

Scarlet Delirium - Everything went better than expected?

I personally didn't care for it on the test server, but I haven't got to play around with it on my own server. Work's keeping me from getting the merits I need for my LB. ; ;

[Urteil]

You guys get an ability with no downsides, and you get it just by leveling up and don't have to pay 3-5 mil for a scroll or wait weeks for the price to drop, when all of the jobs I got received either nothing whatsoever or gained abilities that have huge downsides, and you're still complaining about how much SE hates DRK.

I hate the people that play this job. So much.

As if scroll prices even matter because within 1-2 months they'll be stable and cheaper.


Samurai got a great ability.

Blue Mage got one too.

Red Mage has no downside.

Black Mage either.

Bully is fantastic.

You're full of shit.

[Chriscoffey]

You guys get an ability with no downsides, and you get it just by leveling up and don't have to pay 3-5 mil for a scroll or wait weeks for the price to drop, when all of the jobs I got received either nothing whatsoever or gained abilities that have huge downsides, and you're still complaining about how much SE hates DRK.

I hate the people that play this job. So much.
All the while you are riding out warrior and still just as naive about dark as every other poster that comes in spouting "emo dark". How about you try out the dark comparing it to your other jobs before starting this path of ignorance. I have every job that i care to level up and, as such, I can comment on the various pros/cons of each from my perspective opinion. The only damn reason any of the melee having critical hit weaponskills outside abyssea see such lower numbers is due to the fact they fail at critical builds. This blind sheep following ideology gets old.

[Returner]

Erecia, you have no idea about the gap between WAR and DRK even outside of abyssea. The reason WAR and MNK don't get any upgrade is because they are already considered overpowering (SE stated that themselves). I would rather pay 2-3 millions to buy a spell that is as useful and a clear upgrade like Thunder V, Blizzaja, or Comet for BLM, than getting Scarlett Delirium for free and receive no obvious benefit outside of some very limited situations. I appreciate your SEA mission guides back then if you are that Erecia, but in term of this issue, you can't be any further from reality. This was the JA that all ppl hope to bring DRK to par to WAR, but unfortunately this leaves DRK just short of that. Some minor adjustments would make it so much better but the point is that SE refuses to take any of the suggestions.

DRK in general is a job that is weak against weak mobs due to the fact that attack is overkill against those mobs and that our WS in general do not have high ceiling because of the modifier and no critical. And this JA especially gives DRK nothing against those weak mobs because you won't be taking one devastating hit from those weak mobs. I am guessing SE is aiming this towards HNM, but you would stun any devastating moves or simply stay out of range so it is again "limited". I don't doubt in perfect world this JA would be awesome, but in practice, it is at most a 1-5% increase in our overall output. For some of us, this is the only new offensive JA since lvl 75, and we really expect something better.

[Urteil]

Why don't they just give us cool versions of Abyssal Drain, and Abyssal Strike like Zeid has.

[Finuve]

You guys get an ability with no downsides, and you get it just by leveling up and don't have to pay 3-5 mil for a scroll or wait weeks for the price to drop, when all of the jobs I got received either nothing whatsoever or gained abilities that have huge downsides, and you're still complaining about how much SE hates DRK.

I hate the people that play this job. So much.oh look another WAR that has no idea what they are talking about

[Jar]

All the while you are riding out warrior and still just as naive about dark as every other poster that comes in spouting "emo dark". How about you try out the dark comparing it to your other jobs before starting this path of ignorance. I have every job that i care to level up and, as such, I can comment on the various pros/cons of each from my perspective opinion. The only damn reason any of the melee having critical hit weaponskills outside abyssea see such lower numbers is due to the fact they fail at critical builds. This blind sheep following ideology gets old.


and the Bull shit posts start ..................

you can only gear for crits so much and no amount of gear in this entire game will even do what Raized ruins does, and thats speaking for just RR one atma............. out of three....



and not going to reply to the obvious troll above this.

[Zoner]

and the Bull shit posts start ..................

you can only gear for crits so much and no amount of gear in this entire game will even do what Raized ruins does, and thats speaking for just RR one atma............. out of three....



and not going to reply to the obvious troll above this.

I'm sorry to tell ya Jar, but your the troll in this case

[Dart]

Give me raging rush on drk and I'll make it work in any situation and work very well.

had some fun with SD while doing animated shield for some friends. Timed it just right 5-6 times (shield bash only did about 1300 to me in my pdt gear, leaving me with 400ish hp) after that holy crap did I start to hit hard. If you don't suck you can make this ability work until they hopefully fix it, and if they don't I'll make it work regardless. It's another tool, stop your bitching and suck less people.

[Taint2]

Give me raging rush on drk and I'll make it work in any situation and work very well.

had some fun with SD while doing animated shield for some friends. Timed it just right 5-6 times (shield bash only did about 1300 to me in my pdt gear, leaving me with 400ish hp) after that holy crap did I start to hit hard. If you don't suck you can make this ability work until they hopefully fix it, and if they don't I'll make it work regardless. It's another tool, stop your bitching and suck less people.


Yeah i've found the ability to be quite useful, did a bunch of WoE yesterday, with all the 1500 AoE spam in the new fluxes i was getting some very nice SD procs. Should work well in VW too.

[Chriscoffey]

Give me raging rush on drk and I'll make it work in any situation and work very well.

had some fun with SD while doing animated shield for some friends. Timed it just right 5-6 times (shield bash only did about 1300 to me in my pdt gear, leaving me with 400ish hp) after that holy crap did I start to hit hard. If you don't suck you can make this ability work until they hopefully fix it, and if they don't I'll make it work regardless. It's another tool, stop your bitching and suck less people.
Critical hit weaponskills with the proper fTP and mods make leaps and bounds damage over higher modified weaponskills. Once you realize that you are capping out attack or at least minimum gains compared to stats or crits/DA/TA rates it really sheds new light upon what you can do. I don't need any atma to build a critical build Jar. That is where you and every other melee that believes they understand criticals outside abyssea fail. There are numerous gear pieces that jack up your rate and when combined with other DA/TA pieces its quite overwhelming what you can do outside. I am not listing all this gear because if you even have an ounce of research you would have realized what I already know already about these critical weaponskills.

[Jar]

Critical hit weaponskills with the proper fTP and mods make leaps and bounds damage over higher modified weaponskills. Once you realize that you are capping out attack or at least minimum gains compared to stats or crits/DA/TA rates it really sheds new light upon what you can do. I don't need any atma to build a critical build Jar. That is where you and every other melee that believes they understand criticals outside abyssea fail. There are numerous gear pieces that jack up your rate and when combined with other DA/TA pieces its quite overwhelming what you can do outside. I am not listing all this gear because if you even have an ounce of research you would have realized what I already know already about these critical weaponskills.

Think this guy got wooshed


also enter key forum-ed much?

[Chriscoffey]

Troll much buddy because unless you can argue anything against what I'm presenting you are just another troll clouded in your own hole in the ground. For the record you are in the minority in most of your views about dark just as a reminder. If you can't attack my stance at least you have the dignity to attack my paragraph structure. Well played ad hominem lad well played indeed.

[Urteil]

Give me raging rush on drk and I'll make it work in any situation and work very well.

had some fun with SD while doing animated shield for some friends. Timed it just right 5-6 times (shield bash only did about 1300 to me in my pdt gear, leaving me with 400ish hp) after that holy crap did I start to hit hard. If you don't suck you can make this ability work until they hopefully fix it, and if they don't I'll make it work regardless. It's another tool, stop your bitching and suck less people.

My perfect ability to execute it doesn't change the fact its a poorly thought out ability.

And sucks.

[Dart]

I had a 2k+ crit on animated bow with it. This is bad how?

[Urteil]

I had a 2k+ crit on animated bow with it. This is bad how?

Unpredictable, niche use, requires perfect timing in a niche situation. Only useful on targets that hit you for nearly all your hp.

Would be nice to have the ability just be 'good' without all the other situational BS tied to it.

Palisade isn't situational.

Spontaneity isn't.

Bully isn't.

Manafont isn't.

Unbridled Knowledge isn't.

You get the point.


A straight 30% damage boost to your next WS every 3 minutes would have been better. Make it take 15% of our max hp, I don't care.

Oh look another idea thats 5x better than Scarlet Delirium, wow this is hard.

[Chriscoffey]

Unpredictable, niche use, requires perfect timing in a niche situation. Only useful on targets that hit you for nearly all your hp.

Would be nice to have the ability just be 'good' without all the other situational BS tied to it.

Palisade isn't situational.

Spontaneity isn't.

Bully isn't.

Manafont isn't.

Unbridled Knowledge isn't.

You get the point.


A straight 30% damage boost to your next WS every 3 minutes would have been better. Make it take 15% of our max hp, I don't care.

Oh look another idea thats 5x better than Scarlet Delirium, wow this is hard.
It has became dark's concept now to just accept half thought out abilities to make the best of them because that is as good as it gets.

[Urteil]

It has became dark's concept now to just accept half thought out abilities to make the best of them because that is as good as it gets.

I don't accept that, so I haven't given up my right to express my negativity.

If people want to give up and accept a good dicking, great, but I won't placidly agree that its alright.


Ever.

[Dart]

assumption, the mother of all looking like a moron on forums. Who here said that we've accepted it? No one posting here has, what we're doing is making the best of what we have atm.

[Taint2]

I'm sold on it and been using it effectively since the update. I would like to see it on a 3min timer, miss timing it and then having to wait 5min is my biggest gripe.

[Chriscoffey]

assumption, the mother of all looking like a moron on forums. Who here said that we've accepted it? No one posting here has, what we're doing is making the best of what we have atm.
I didn't assume anything. I look at the posted rhetoric against SD and what i see is a handful of people complaining and the rest of you "accepting" it in a situational setting. That is not an assumption on my part but the conclusion of forum truth to this complaint we have with the ability currently. Does name calling make you feel more superior to anyone here? I wonder if you and Taint have no mathematical basis to stand on sometimes and make this shit up as you go.

[Jar]

Troll much buddy because unless you can argue anything against what I'm presenting you are just another troll clouded in your own hole in the ground. For the record you are in the minority in most of your views about dark just as a reminder. If you can't attack my stance at least you have the dignity to attack my paragraph structure. Well played ad hominem lad well played indeed.


and the Bull shit posts start ..................

you can only gear for crits so much and no amount of gear in this entire game will even do what Raized ruins does, and thats speaking for just RR one atma............. out of three....


......................................................................................................

[Chriscoffey]

I am talking about outside abyssea which you knew already. I guess I need to baby quote myself so you can understand it better Jar. Just so you know YES you can get enough critical build to reach the rate of at least 1 of those atma and more. You can't very well get the combined rate of GH/RR.

Claymore grip 3%, zahak's mail 3%, 5% merits, Rancor collar 5%, hecatomb leggings 3%, dex/agi 20% (max), light earring 1% crit. That is 40% critical hit rate. RR is 30% and GH is 20%. Those are the most commonly used atma so i would guess that is a really close rate to the atma. You can add warrior's blood rage on top of that for another 20% and it's 60% outside abyssea.

I guess i am wrong in thinking that you can potentially be at an abyssea level critical hit rate for WS and another reason why people fail at research like yourself.

[Jar]

I am talking about outside abyssea which you knew already. I guess I need to baby quote myself so you can understand it better Jar. Just so you know YES you can get enough critical build to reach the rate of at least 1 of those atma and more. You can't very well get the combined rate of GH/RR.

Claymore grip 3%, zahak's mail 3%, 5% merits, Rancor collar 5%, hecatomb leggings 3%, dex/agi 20% (max), light earring 1% crit. That is 40% critical hit rate. RR is 30% and GH is 20%. Those are the most commonly used atma so i would guess that is a really close rate to the atma. You can add warrior's blood rage on top of that for another 20% and it's 60% outside abyssea.

I guess i am wrong in thinking that you can potentially be at an abyssea level critical hit rate for WS and another reason why people fail at research like yourself.

RR gives DEx and Crit damage also witch is no made up for in that set.

hows your attack in all that gear bro and how about WSC?

there is alot more than just crit rate to stuff gimme a sec to math out this bullshit ill edit it in in a min:



( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP * PDIF
D = 144 (95 empy for lulz)
fSTR = (144/9)+8 for cap str- monster vit formula ((your STR - monster VIT)+4)/4 109 vit because you have 100+ str
mob has vit to match
WSC = (STR)*0.6
fTP=2.0 first hit +1.0 for 2nd+ 1.0 for doubles(+0.1 for belt/gorget)
PDIF is attack/monster DEF in this we will asume over 800 def
because even EXP mobs in abyssea have 600ish
some VW mobs have more than 800 much more even this is also where crits
come in. cap for Pdif is 2.25 for 2handers and crits add +1 to that meaning 3.25

now math time.
ukko's has a base crit rate of what 30-40%? i heard it caps crit with just RR meaning like 40ish ill opt it to 30% tho to help this crit build guys case.

set at HERE (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/231635)
((144 + (((103 + 47 - 108)+4)/4)=|24(caped)|)+((103+47)*0.6)= |90|)
Base damage in your set is 258
258*(2+1.27)= 843.66
now is the fun part.

you have 17% in gear lets just say your capping Ddex 37%+30%+5%=72%
also anything worthwhile will be 5 levels higher than you(most are more) 5*0.05= Cratio
Attack = 8 + Skill + trait +Floor(STR*0.75)+food+berserk
at 95 A+ is like 400skill so Attack= (8+400+20+Floor(150*.75)+150)*1.25 = 695
695/800=0.86875
dia and angon now 800*.70
695/560=1.2410714285714285714285714285714
now cratio reduces pdif by 25% 5*.05
1.24*.75=0.93
now adding in avrg crit pdif boost
0.93+.72=1.65

1407.45 is overall damage. ill do str/attack build tomorrow got a skill up pt invite

[Chriscoffey]

You said that "you can only gear for crits so much and no amount of gear in this entire game will even do what Raized ruins does" which in fact if you are 50 dex/agi for the 20% critical boost it's the same with a higher critical hit rate than RR. You also can have the 20% boost from blood rage which is only 10% less.

I am just stating you are very much wrong in thinking you can't be at those levels outside abyssea. You fail to realize each mob will be different along with each mob having different attack variances that you need to determine when fighting. This isn't a end all be all situation merely me showing you that YES you can be at/close to the RR atma level.

There are times you can't cap out criticals on HNM and you need to know their AGI. There are times you can sub in DA/TA rates over mods and up your DOT. There are times you can go full bore critical builds for higher damage and time efficiency.There are many times now of which most melee are capping attack so you don't need as much for minimum gains. I reiterate the fact that you must be a weak melee to not understand these systematic variances to know what gear changes are when and where. Figure that tidbit of information out and JUST MAYBE you stand a chance against a good melee.

[Jar]

most melee are capping attack

you are f$@*ing batshit crazy

[Cljader1]

This ability is crap it really is, situational at best...I have got a boost from it in woe but it still stupid as hell...it should just be a straight boost, really its only ok in low man groups when drks are allowed to engage...all in all it still remains a half as ability that require bs for benefits and other job dont require bs for there abilities to work

[Soidisant]

I agree with Dart and Taint's stance. This ability is far more useful than we were giving it credit for pre-update. Ok, it's not game breakingly awesome but I still get use out of it every time it is up against anything moderately difficult.

Few examples. We did Animated Scythe/Great Axe/Hammer/Shield and I was generally getting hit for anywhere between 700 and 1500 when it kicked in. The end result was 2.5-3.5k Catastrophes and a 2.1k crit on Animated Shield.

Last night at VW on any mob that we could melee on SD would generally activate on anything from 500-1000+. And mobs where I died wasn't a result of being gung ho on DRK, it was a result of VW being ridiculously melee unfriendly as all melees were dropping dead.

Even if you only get nailed by a 400-600 AoE, the boost still ends up being 12.5-20% boost which is hardly terrible.


Yeah a boost would be nice but SD is nowhere near as bad as everyone was making out when you were saying delete it.

[Chriscoffey]

This ability is crap it really is, situational at best...I have got a boost from it in woe but it still stupid as hell...it should just be a straight boost, really its only ok in low man groups when drks are allowed to engage...all in all it still remains a half as ability that require bs for benefits and other job dont require bs for there abilities to work
This pretty much sums it up for the 1,000th time.


you are f$@*ing batshit crazy

If you had read the rest of that you maybe would have understood what i meant about other melee being close or capping their attack against mobs on the game. At this point "having capped attack or reaching" gives minimal gains compared to other equipment which can be used for a higher DOT rate. You haven't did anything other than insult me with your ignorance so far so keep on playing Blu and sucking at that too.

[Jar]

keep on playing Blu and sucking at that too.

so you boast about bullshit statements about WAR in a DRK forum and than pick fun at BLU...

cute..

also 17% crit rate is equal to a .17 boost to PDIF with out +2 feet on war meaning on any mob with 500 def you it is akin to adding about 90 attack that you could have had in gear with STR, atk, double attack, crit damage feet.

there are a few pieces of crit gear that DO beat the attack/STR counterparts but overall stacking just crit rate is counterproductive.

also dont BS back, math or stop talking.

[Chriscoffey]

Nothing I have posted is bullshit. You are just too naive and ignorant to acknowledge anything I say. This is the reason why you will never get better. Do you understand the concept of having closer attack to cap equating out to minimum gains in DOT/power vs other stats/mods? Why are you talking about warrior af2 feet when you originally said that no job could get the power of a RR atma. I apparently proved you could so you changed over to something entirely different. Do you also jump around tangent remarks to feel better about yourself being wrong?

Stacking criticals in pratical USE does work (watch this quote here) DEPENDING ON THE MOB AND SITUATION (<---SEE WHAT I DID THERE READ THAT A FEW TIMES). I try to compare each piece to what I could be using vs other slots and adjust accordingly. Try researching how criticals work with dex/agi so you can understand this statement. Also try researching what critical tier levels are for X dex = Y critical hit rate as you add more. I hate ignorance and you my friend are the epitome of such a thing. I can only offer i kick your ass at a parse.

Take the challenge and I move after I get my apocalypse complete or you shut up. Check YES ( ) or NO (). That is your choices in this matter. Much easier to see who is wrong than talking smack on this forum buddy. I think warrior would be a great job to use in this little matter. Einherjar would be a great event to go to for this. I would say dark knight but as I know you don't have apocalypse it would be futile. We are on the subject of criticals so much it would be a great "You are wrong" challenge. I am waiting for your reply and quite enthusiastic if you are willing to say YES to me.

EDIT: I am 20 Jadeshells away as I don't have much time to play lately. Just so you know my status.

[Dart]

something, something, monkey shit fight at the zoo, something.

[Chriscoffey]

Dart you are so mean sir.. so. very .. mean to me... <-- /emo quote.

[Dart]

i just want you two to stop and lets go back to our emo JA discussion.

[Chriscoffey]

i just want you two to stop and lets go back to our emo JA discussion.
Listen man I'm just ready to go the distance to prove myself. That is the only way you can with some people. The issue with SD has been addressed. I can easily use this ability just like i use weapon bash to stun moves with precision and situational use. I just don't think our dark knight job should have to do this considering most other job abilities are beneficial most of the time. I honestly believe at this point the less we even talk about dark knight the higher chance something gets fixed but even then I still have my doubts about that.

[Jar]

Listen man I'm just ready to go the distance to prove myself..

try posting a number or two than

math works wonders to prove your point when the whole games math.

[Chriscoffey]

try posting a number or two than

math works wonders to prove your point when the whole games math.
What is better than physically showing you what I am talking about rather than argue about it. Surely Jar you wouldn't argue against a parse which is math in action right? I am betting even if i moved there and destroyed you that you would STILL come up with some excuse as to why I won but as Dart mentioned this is a derailed subject to this topic. I told you what i was willing to do. It's up to you to say YES or NO.

I am using math in a physical form in person to prove something to you where you can't deny it over and over like you have every other posted sentence.

[Jar]

I am betting even if i moved there and destroyed you that you would STILL come up with some excuse as to why I won

I am using math in a physical form

Not a single number was said....................

fuckin bored of this now..

gimme something at least to chew on and math out this is just like im talking to a teenage girl who wants to go to the party no matter what i say .......

Edit: changed quote to stuff i laughed at.

like a kid saying ill come beat you at this but i wont do 5 min of 9th grade algebra to talk back.

and the math in physical form that's quite the way to say you don't know shit.

[Chriscoffey]

I have given the math already and even said I would physically come to your server and prove it. Man up and say YES or NO not intimidate me with your ignorant troll rhetoric. I have listed sets and variables and even said that certain things are situational depending on the mob you are fighting. What more should i suggest because I can't very well list every single set that I have or would use unless i know what we are fighting. Do you understand now or should i start with my ABC's first? If you can't give me that answer than i accept you don't know what the hell you're talking about and scared to parse against me.

I am very serious about coming there. I know that no matter what math i list you will troll me into oblivion and furthermore IF you had a clue about melee in general you would know to ask me about certain mob attributes vs what i would use. You are more like the girl not answering me directly about saying yes or no and trying to run around in circles about the matter.

EDIT: And your stupidity is one like scientist saying there is no way in hell that something could move faster than the speed of light and ONCE its proven with CERN they now have neutrinos that apparently do. That is the difference between your hypothetical ignorance and proven science in action. Give me an answer unless you are scared to be proven wrong in person.

[Chriscoffey]

With that last comment being said.. i shall refrain from derailing this topic anymore.

[Soidisant]

Listen man I'm just ready to go the distance to prove myself. That is the only way you can with some people. The issue with SD has been addressed. I can easily use this ability just like i use weapon bash to stun moves with precision and situational use. I just don't think our dark knight job should have to do this considering most other job abilities are beneficial most of the time. I honestly believe at this point the less we even talk about dark knight the higher chance something gets fixed but even then I still have my doubts about that.


The majority of the time you don't have to use it with precision. It lasts 3 minutes so you can just have it up full time and then if you get hit it activates. And on stuff like VW you are going to get hit at some point and it's going to be for 400+. You can't stun everything and they generally have a lot of AoE moves.

Like T1 Jeuno VW Cherufe last night I just had SD up full time and at point Cherufe would either get a melee swing off on me for 400+ or Crippling Slam would not play nice and go through 3 shadows doing 1000+. Absorb Attribute was also insanely nice as you could absorb Boiling Blood Haste/Berserk. The end result was that I beat the 90 Ukon WAR every pop we did (and we did 12). The result was the same on the 1 T1 Jeuno Roc we did too.

This ability is far from crap. On anything that hits moderately hard that you can melee, it's really good. On stuff that you can't melee so well on it's still ok because all melees die pretty quick so at least when you are alive you're doing substantially more damage.

The only time it really sucks is on weaker mobs that don't hit hard enough to give a worthwhile boost.

[Urteil]

The majority of the time you don't have to use it with precision. It lasts 3 minutes so you can just have it up full time and then if you get hit it activates. And on stuff like VW you are going to get hit at some point and it's going to be for 400+. You can't stun everything and they generally have a lot of AoE moves.

Like T1 Jeuno VW Cherufe last night I just had SD up full time and at point Cherufe would either get a melee swing off on me for 400+ or Crippling Slam would not play nice and go through 3 shadows doing 1000+. Absorb Attribute was also insanely nice as you could absorb Boiling Blood Haste/Berserk. The end result was that I beat the 90 Ukon WAR every pop we did (and we did 12). The result was the same on the 1 T1 Jeuno Roc we did too.

This ability is far from crap. On anything that hits moderately hard that you can melee, it's really good. On stuff that you can't melee so well on it's still ok because all melees die pretty quick so at least when you are alive you're doing substantially more damage.

The only time it really sucks is on weaker mobs that don't hit hard enough to give a worthwhile boost.

If you aren't using it with precision then I don't see how it would not be crap, perfect execution is hardly a saving grace, but we'll count it. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because anybody having this ability up full time is doing it wrong.




However you seem to be highlighting and agreeing with all the things that are wrong with it:

This ability only works when people are playing inefficiently and is more of an afterthought/gamble, then a tactical decision to increase one's performance.

Unreliable.

Works against basic party mechanics for damage mitigation and death prevention.

Niche use; not usable on everything like every other JA is. It could easily be made to be worthwhile on all targets.

Luck based, especially if having it up full time (I don't see how this ability is any good at all if you are full timing it.) There's too much that go wrong, getting pot shotted for 200 dmg as opposed to getting hit for a large %.

Getting hit for nearly all your health means you didn't stun and are doing it wrong, or somebody didn't stun.

*****In the chance that the move we are talking about is impossible to stun then you are relying on luck or Jedi mind powers to predict an incoming attack, because its instant and not preventable.

If you are beating people in a parse then I'd assume you have hate, last time I checked DRK parries like a person with Parkinsons and has the evasion of a Brick wall.



--------
This boner the dev's have for super large situational use, sucks.

So basically the only thing you said that makes sense is "Absorb Attribute is insane."

I agree.

[Soidisant]

Having it up full time is not doing it wrong. It's situational. For a lot of mobs the only hits you are going to take are AoE and unless it's diaga or something, they are all pretty damaging. So timing it is actually detrimental for those mobs because the recast timer isn't ticking down whilst you're waiting to take damage.

For example T1 Jeuno VW mobs.

Cherufe - Only Crippling Slam hits you and is unstunnable
Tawaret - Only hits you if you have hate
Yatagarasu - Only Dread Wind hits you which will get off from time to time
Agathos - Ridiculously melee unfriendly
Goji - Dark Orb / Dark Mist / Bloody Claw which it spams so can't just stun
Gugalanna - Only Mow and Lethal Triclip hits you if shadows fail but this is generally really melee unfriendly

So basically, 5 out of 6 of them you are best off just fulltiming it. 3 out of 4 if you're only counting the stuff you'd feasibly melee (Taurus may be feasible but we only did 1 kill and none of the melees could be bothered going back to change from SAM sub to NIN sub)


And so what if DRK evasion/parrys sucks? The last time I checked, a WAR is going to get slapped around just as much apart from Ukko's doesn't cure them yet Catastrophe does cure me. Yes I had hate but did I die? No. And it wasn't because I was cure spammed, I was actually cured the least out of the DD's. I just blink tanked them. Well actually I was SAM sub for the Roc and still didn't really get hit even when tanking.

And you keep saying it goes against party mechanics. If you are in range, you are going to get hit by AoE at some point. Just because I have Scarlet Delirium, doesn't mean I won't throw on PDT or try stun damaging moves. I'm not suddenly going to go 'Oh look a 1k+ move, I'll pop SD and not bother with PDT'. Of course I'm going to put on PDT/MDT and/or try stun it still. Scarlet Delirium just gives me a boost if the move does goes off which it will from time to time.

EDIT: And yes I agree it is not useful on everything but it is useful on the mobs that matter at the moment so I'm reasonably happy with it. The mobs where it sucks are generally either trash mobs or mobs where all melees are rubbish.

[Zoner]

I honestly feel sorry for the healer in Soidisant's group...

[Soidisant]

You realise that the LS WHM's prefer me on DRK over other DD's because I don't MP sponge as much as the other DD's right? And I have WAR levelled so they could easily shift me onto that instead. Hell every single one of our WHM's has an empy DD job so they could even get me to WHM and go DD themselves.

[Alkimi]

I'm usually the one healing him and it's never an issue. The SAMs and WARs require much more healing just because of Catastrophe. Not sure how you can feel sorry for us, if you're staggering voidwatch NMs regularly then you pretty much have infinite MP anyway. What else am I going to cure, the Aegis PLD who takes next to no damage from anything?


This ability only works when people are playing inefficiently and is more of an afterthought/gamble, then a tactical decision to increase one's performance.

Unreliable.

Works against basic party mechanics for damage mitigation and death prevention.

How is doing more damage being inefficient? Melee DDs will take damage, that's why WHM was invented. If you want to use your 'party mechanics for damage mitigation and death prevention' then just use summoners, but enjoy taking 3 times as long to kill stuff.

[Chriscoffey]

Yes but you are comparing apples to oranges. You have the benefit of a relic with a drain to heal your HP where most darks don't. You can't really sit back and compare then say everything is fine when getting that kind of benefit. Both mnk and war abilities benefit them no matter their weapon. The job abilities should be pushed out as a benefit to all who play the job not just a select few. I have had very few mages that actually let me do my thing full blast with dark because they said I was being a MP sponge and no amount of reasoning would convince them otherwise.

Some people get spam healed because they are idiots and others need spam healed because they are pushing the absolute limits of the job. It just depends on who it is and the situations they are in. I can't comment for everyone playing but i do know most mages bitch if they have to cure anyone because they are for the most part lazy to use MP.

[Soidisant]

Yes but you are comparing apples to oranges. You have the benefit of a relic with a drain to heal your HP where most darks don't. You can't really sit back and compare then say everything is fine when getting that kind of benefit. Both mnk and war abilities benefit them no matter their weapon. The job abilities should be pushed out as a benefit to all who play the job not just a select few. I have had very few mages that actually let me do my thing full blast with dark because they said I was being a MP sponge and no amount of reasoning would convince them otherwise.

Some people get spam healed because they are idiots and others need spam healed because they are pushing the absolute limits of the job. It just depends on who it is and the situations they are in. I can't comment for everyone playing but i do know most mages bitch if they have to cure anyone because they are for the most part lazy to use MP.


A DRK going all out is not going to MP sponge any more than any other DD apart from when Souleater is up and it eats solace SS for several swings first anyway. Every other DD in range is going to take that AoE damage too. The only difference is that the DRK is getting a much needed boost out of it.

For comparison, a WAR has to have hate to get use out of Retaliation. A MNK has to have hate to get use out of Counterstance. They don't get those bonuses fulltime and both require sacrifices that increase the chance of dying. Just like Scarlet Delirium.

Edit: And by fulltime I mean they won't have hate 100% of the time rather than recasts.

[Chriscoffey]

Yeah and i agree with that however they also get restraint and impetus which requires not having hate and is along the same lines as what SD should have been for dark. Those are just extra abilities IF they have hate as dark has decreased defense by a considerable margin already plus once LR is active you are getting beat down.

This means you are getting more cures than needed by a mage because of your lowered resistance factor and you have to decrease your DOT rate to either lose hate to another DD or just tank it with a physical down set which also decreases your DOT. This in turn means you need apocalypse to make it effective for curing which most dark knights do not have.

This is something I tried to stress with idiot BLMs before not using - enmity and just going all out on a HNM without balancing out hate issues with power. I mean they consider doing 200 more damage and getting 1 shotted more elite than nuking the full time and never getting hate. I always found that stupid game play.

[Taint2]

Its a good ability get over it. Where is sucks (fodder mobs) it doesn't matter, where it shines it is a good boost. Most of the people complaining aren't using it or are using it wrong. Its not as mindless as restraint,impetus,counter,retaliation maybe thats where the issue is.

[StingRay104]

Soidistant says SD works great and I outparse all the other dd's.

Chriscoffey says I feel sorry for your whms if your fulltiming it

Soidistant says my whms love me because i'm awesome, trust me SD isn't as bad it makes my Catastrophes do great drains.

Alkimi says Hi i'm the whm and I can speak for all the ls whms in the ls when I say we love SD and DRKs on mobs because we don't cure as much. Seriously its so nice when they Catastrophe huge amounts of hp to themselves while keeping up high damage. We hate wars and sams because they aren't as good as DRK.

Chriscoffey says Ah the plot thickens, so the your concept is Apoc DRK makes SD work better, as in we need to all have just one weapon in order to negate all the negative of this one ability whereas jobs like mnk and war can benefit fulltime from impetus and restraint with no negative effects? Are you lazy or just stupid?

Stingray104 says If you think that having incredibly situational JAs is beneficial to the job then lets start doing so to other jobs for instance lets make afflatus solace get its bonus off of only the first cure spell and then last only 1 min. Wow this is fun lets make restraint be up for 3 mins and then after first hit is landed if it crits then it goes into a 1 min buff otherwise you wasted the ability, seems kinda pointless but sure why not. I got it lets make all AOE spells also hit players that'll be awesome, and best part is it can make SD actually more useful.

I can go on and on about Scarlet Diarrhea, sure it can be used, but name 1 other job ability that has such extreme criteria in order for it to be useful. They should have done it the sublimation way I suggested or the afflatus way that others have suggested, that way it could truly be beneficial no matter what you were facing, plus it actually follows the theme of DRK's take damage to kill the crap outta you concept.

[Soidisant]

Sure they got Restraint and Impetus. And what did we get? Our Last Resort duration increased six fold. Now what adds more damage. Restraint, Impetus or an extra 150 seconds of Last Resort/Desperate Blows. I'm fairly certain it is the third option.

Yes you get far more use out of Scarlet Delirium if you have an Apocalypse but taking that out of the equation is like taking Ukon/Vere out of the equation for WAR and MNK. But if you take away Ukko's Fury from WAR's or Victory Smite from MNK's then there isn't a great deal of damage difference between DRK, WAR and MNK. Apocalypse makes DRK a ton better in exactly the same way that Verethragna and Ukonvasara do for WAR and MNK.

A parse between a non-empy/woe WAR, DRK and MNK would be pretty close if it was a level playing field (i.e. outside Abyssea). Part of DRK's problem was that other DD jobs got monstrous Empyrean WS'es and DRK did not, at least not inside Abyssea. And because everyone still has that lolDRK mentality from Abyssea, we are seen as terrible DD's outside Abyssea when that is not the case at all.

[Zoner]

Sure they got Restraint and Impetus. And what did we get? Our Last Resort duration increased six fold. Now what adds more damage. Restraint, Impetus or an extra 150 seconds of Last Resort/Desperate Blows. I'm fairly certain it is the third option.

Yes you get far more use out of Scarlet Delirium if you have an Apocalypse but taking that out of the equation is like taking Ukon/Vere out of the equation for WAR and MNK. But if you take away Ukko's Fury from WAR's or Victory Smite from MNK's then there isn't a great deal of damage difference between DRK, WAR and MNK. Apocalypse makes DRK a ton better in exactly the same way that Verethragna and Ukonvasara do for WAR and MNK.

A parse between a non-empy/woe WAR, DRK and MNK would be pretty close if it was a level playing field (i.e. outside Abyssea). Part of DRK's problem was that other DD jobs got monstrous Empyrean WS'es and DRK did not, at least not inside Abyssea. And because everyone still has that lolDRK mentality from Abyssea, we are seen as terrible DD's outside Abyssea when that is not the case at all.


Are you really comparing a relic Apocalypse to the free candy that's practically given to War known as Ukonvasara?

[Soidisant]

Because Relics are hard to get when you can duo 250 currency a day? If you really wanted a Relic, you could get 500 currency a day easily now. And the prices will probably drop now with how easy CoP Dyna made currency to get.

Ok a Relic may be slightly harder to get than an Ukon but the difference definitely isn't that big anymore. I wish it was because I hated how easy Empy's were to get but Relics really aren't much harder to get now.

[Jar]

it doesnt even show that half of you are 95 drks <.< stop bitching

[Chriscoffey]

Because Relics are hard to get when you can duo 250 currency a day? If you really wanted a Relic, you could get 500 currency a day easily now. And the prices will probably drop now with how easy CoP Dyna made currency to get.

Ok a Relic may be slightly harder to get than an Ukon but the difference definitely isn't that big anymore. I wish it was because I hated how easy Empy's were to get but Relics really aren't much harder to get now.
My friend arcanes got his Uko in a day of playing. You can't even get a relic in a day and that's IF you even had all the currency farmed up. The ONLY reason the difference isn't as big is because people who had relics raised hell and didn't just accept things as it was. This is along the same lines as SD where a few of you believe the rest of us should shut the hell up BUT would accept a better change if SE decided too.This is nothing short of hypocrisy.

[Soidisant]

So your friend killed 41 NMs, farmed at least 25+ Glavoid pops and then killed those 25 Glavoid's all in the same day? Believeable.

Yes we wouldn't complain if Scarlet Delirium was improved but the critical part is this. Does it need improving? No. It does not warrant the huge QQ fest and general throwing your toys out of the pram, even being as extreme as saying it should be deleted. It comes across terribly snd makes DRKs look like whining children who are just upset they are not the outright best DD. With the way some people talk it's like they want an AH DRK to beat an Ukon WAR.

[Urteil]

Because Relics are hard to get when you can duo 250 currency a day? If you really wanted a Relic, you could get 500 currency a day easily now. And the prices will probably drop now with how easy CoP Dyna made currency to get.

Ok a Relic may be slightly harder to get than an Ukon but the difference definitely isn't that big anymore. I wish it was because I hated how easy Empy's were to get but Relics really aren't much harder to get now.

The above might be true Jem and despite quoting you I am not directly attacking you below, and even if it is easier it really isn't. . . Caladbolg. Its much different and is still and undertaking.






Every Dark Knight in this thread using their relic as the standard to balance the job:

"Scarlet Delirium is good, I have a relic. Go get one. Makes the ability great! I can heal myself!"

No other job does this, no other job expects this.

Relics are easy now? Empyreans are easy now? Everything is easy now? Where does this stop?

Its not 'that' easy, I don't see as many Apocalypse as I do Caladbolgs.

And now when its convenient we tear down the 'pedestal' that relics occupy simply to prove our point do we?

Bullshit.






Its not about being the best DD, its not about doing the most melee damage. God knows I am not a proponent of DARK KNIGHT DOIN DA MOST MELEE DEEPS.

Honestly if this was true . . . who's going to fucking play warrior, that's all they have! Let them have it!

Its about shit making sense, its about the ability not having piss poor execution.





Niche use. Situational.

Do you think that championing an ability that is half-baked at best and requires a 200m gil weapon to be functional is logical, dare I say 'fair' or even contain a shred of sense?

A weapon that (and this is being generous) probably less than 3% of the population will ever see?


It shouldn't be so specialized when ever other job is handed SOLID GOLD. Is it so much to ask for a minor tweak that makes it viable to a broader audience?

Why didn't they just put Scarlet Delirum on Apocalypse?!








And if you really feel that its feasible to attack my ability play Dark Knight execute its abilities or use it in a myriad of situations; Think again.

Come to my server, I'll pay for your transfer.

I can give you a proper thrashing and beat you around like a ping-pong ball and expand upon the capacities and show you how little you truly understand the holistic and full-on application of your beloved Vana'Diel profession.

The simple fact that a weapon that could honestly be considered a thing that defines the 1% as being a legitimate basis to balance a job is staggering and it is of my opinion that you need some sense knocked into you.








Tanking, Group, Aftermath Executable, DD set, and WS sets. Wow, life is so hard, its so tough to play this job.

PvE is so tough - you truly have mastered a rotation that only few could hope to master, the constant switching between PDT and DD and WS sets.

Let's be real: The hardest thing about it is timing your WS so you don't overTP.

And there you have it folks, the /hardest/ thing by far to do in PvE, and on that record let's balance Dark Knight around Apocalypse!




Go back to the waterfall, flip off the Elvaan and throw it back into the river.

[Soidisant]

Why on earth do you need an Apoc to make use out of it?

Ok without Apoc you cannot easily cure back the HP but that doesn't mean you cannot use it. People bring up the argument that it makes it harder on WHM's which I do not buy. Yes, the WHM's have to cure you without Apoc but if it was not you there taking damage as a DRK, then it would be another DD there instead taking the exact same damage.

When I don't go on DRK, my LS don't suddenly go 'Oh we won't fill that DD slot up', they put another DD in that slot instead who will then still be meleeing away in AoE range and taking damage. The exact same damage that a non-Apoc DRK would take if they were in that position. It makes it no harder on the WHM at all.

And Calad is still a fantastic weapon. It's hardly like it gets absolutely trounced outside of Abyssea. A Calad DRK can more than pull their weight DD wise outside Abyssea, especially in low support situations or when DD's are /NIN making Desperate Blows a more significant advantage.

[Chriscoffey]

So your friend killed 41 NMs, farmed at least 25+ Glavoid pops and then killed those 25 Glavoid's all in the same day? Believeable.

Yes we wouldn't complain if Scarlet Delirium was improved but the critical part is this. Does it need improving? No. It does not warrant the huge QQ fest and general throwing your toys out of the pram, even being as extreme as saying it should be deleted. It comes across terribly snd makes DRKs look like whining children who are just upset they are not the outright best DD. With the way some people talk it's like they want an AH DRK to beat an Ukon WAR.
I will say that i was a bit misleading and he started at the VNM portion of the trial so not all the NMs. It wouldn't take more than a day to do the NMs up to that point but you are indeed right in saying its not a full trial amount. We could argue the semantics of how easy one is over another but none of them are hard to get they just take more time to complete.

I don't know of anyone who even with the millions of gil to buy currency that could buy it fast enough considering the amount in general it takes. You posting that it's easy to get 500 currency a day is quite asanine like me not mentioning he started at the VNMs. That is going to be a LS event based amount and unless everyone has agreed to do X weapon then you are looking more like 70-200 range going solo/low man.

Mythics are by far the harder of the 3 no doubt about that at least in requirements. Relics are going to take you 2 months and empyrean 2-3 weeks with slight help or take time depending on how many help and efficiency.

[Soidisant]

Actually, I wasn't trying to mislead. Before the latest update I agree that total would be impossible lowman but with how CoP zones are now it's entirely possible. We entered Tav last night as WHM DRK NIN THF and got 289 currency (no 100's) and that was entering blind with no information about how the zone had changed. We only tried proccing half the mobs and were not farming efficient mobs (i.e. mobs that we could proc 100% of the time). I'm confident if we entered with the same set-up again, we could get 500+ if we entered solely aiming to get as much currency as possible.

Basically in CoP zones now there are huge clusters of mobs that will always be JA/WS/Magic proccable (I.e. whole camps of WS mobs or JA mobs instead of a mix like city dyna). So you could target WS proc mobs and Aeolian them down or target JA mobs and spam DNC JA's on them. And they haven't had their level changed since 75 cap so they're pathetically weak. And they don't 2hr like beastmen. If you don't use SJ's you can also get 100's off normal mobs.

And when I said 500 a day, I meant farming half and buying half. You'd struggle to get 500 duo farming I think. 200-300 duo is 100% consistently possible though because people are already regularly doing it.

[Chriscoffey]

Well are those 100s off the jobs a glitch or something that will stay? If not then i know where I'm going to complete my apocalypse and thanks for the info. I haven't been playing much since i have been working my ass off lately.

I also see how you could construe how relics are easy now. That is a bit pathetic they made them that easy but still not quite as easy as empyrean.

[Dart]

considering the last stage of empy. I'm not sure we can lump them into "empy are easy" with 100% accuracy. I wonder if empy's will be trolled like relics originally were. 2000 cata kills for +basedmg. I can see them doing that with this update. 1500 metal plates for more base dmg and a couple more to the stat of each weapon. It would be fitting in a way.

[Dart]

it doesnt even show that half of you are 95 drks <.< stop bitching

GET OUT MAIN JOB LVL95 BLU! >O

[Taint2]

100s are 100% drop from a White !! proc in CoP zone.

[Jar]

100s are 100% drop from a White !! proc in CoP zone.

wHITE PROC IS LIKE A RANDOM 1% CHANCE THO..

[Dart]

maybe i'm a lucky bastard but it seems more like 5-10%. But your sentiment is still true.

IT SUCKS