Bully: it's really bad.

[Insaniac]

Did a little bit of testing.

Recast 5:00 - Surprise surprise!!
Duration ~0:30 - Further testing shows the duration varies. Lasted 20 seconds on a T1 Jeuno VWNM.

Inflicts the mob you use it on with a type of debuff that cause a chance of intimidation against anyone it acts upon.

Has a range of about 10-15 yalms. This is the best thing about the ability. Can be used for claiming.

Intimidation rate solo is just atrocious. On abyssea mobs in 3 attempts I got not a single intimidation. On Gukumatz 0 intimidates. On TW mobs 2 intimidates in 3 tries. 0 intimidates and a shortened duration on T1 VW Gargouille.

Duo testing was extremely limited but seemed no better. I don't know if party size even affects this ability anymore since SE left that out of the description.

A voke from a sch vs bully resulted in 100% vs. 70% enmity.

[Laphine]

meh...

btw can you get to 95 on the test server? would you be able to test for moar DW and crit attack bonus? :p

[Zirael]

Did a little bit of testing.

Recast 5:00 - Surprise surprise!!
Duration ~0:30

Inflicts the mob you use it on with a type of debuff that cause a chance of intimidation against anyone it acts upon.

Has a range of about 10-15 yalms. This is the best thing about the ability. Can be used for claiming.

Intimidation rate solo is just atrocious. On abyssea mobs in 3 attempts I got not a single intimidation. On Gukumatz 0 intimidates. On TW mobs 2 intimidates in 3 tries.

Duo testing was extremely limited but seemed no better. I don't know if party size even affects this ability anymore since SE left that out of the description.

A voke from a sch vs bully resulted in 100% vs. 70% enmity.
That's suprising...I'm still downloading, was going to go brew Shinryu or Dragua and test the procs too. Aquick question for a ray of hope - what about JA animation? Does it make THF shine all over?

[Alpheus]

Thanks for the heads up. ^^

[Insaniac]

The animation is boring too! The only hope for this JA is if the chance of intimidate increase drastically if you are in a full party.

[Insaniac]

meh...

btw can you get to 95 on the test server? would you be able to test for moar DW and crit attack bonus? :pAlready checked lol. Still DW2 at 95 on the test server.

[Laphine]

Already checked lol. Still DW2 at 95 on the test server.

;_;

/sigh

[Alaik]

What has two thumbs and called this the moment SE mentioned bully?

This guy.

[Nebo]

:eek:

/sarcasm

[Arcon]

I only just came home, so no chance to test yet. Honestly, I knew it would suck from the moment it was announced. However, we finally get a decent claim tool, which I didn't consider before. That alone kinda makes it worth it.

[Insaniac]

I only just came home, so no chance to test yet. Honestly, I knew it would suck from the moment it was announced. However, we finally get a decent claim tool, which I didn't consider before. That alone kinda makes it worth it.I don't know if I would say worth it lol. Maybe more like a turd with a silver lining?

[Nebo]

Yeah, I think everyone expected this ability to be stupid.

But the whole "no DW3 at 95" is upsetting. I suppose it's still possible we'll get it 95-99, but I'm not optomisitc.

Its like they have a "THF Fail Ability" button they keep mashing update after update after update.

[Insaniac]

Still needs to be tested in a party setting but I'm not holding my breath on it being good enough to make it on to my home macro page. I'm sure on anything like T3/4 VWNMs even with a full party there's like a 2% chance of it procing.

[Nebo]

Still needs to be tested in a party setting but I'm not holding my breath on it being good enough to make it on to my home macro page. I'm sure on anything like T3/4 VWNMs even with a full party there's like a 2% chance of it procing.

Even if it was, a 30 second duration with a 5 minute recast is retarded. But retarded is the baseline that SE operates on when it comes to THF job abilities.

Retarded functionality, retarded (positional or current enmity target) restrictions, retarded effect durations to go with retardedly long (and shared) recast timers. (Did you check to see if your conspirator/steal/accomplice timer reset?)

This hasn't changed in the better part of a decade....it isn't going to happen now.

[FrankReynolds]

I may have missed it in skimming. Does it share a timer?

[Insaniac]

No it does not.

[FrankReynolds]

Lets start a thief ally and see what happens if people rotate and keep it up full time. :P

[Zirael]

Meh, I wanted to tail tank Hazhdiha and see how many procs I'd get, but it seems no freepop NMs are up. Didn't see ??? for Dragua either. Probably needs dominion fame build up :-/ I'll try to think of something else that could Hundred Fists me.
Got 1 proc on Manigordos (abyssea tiger) and had to log for now.
God, I'd compare this effect to weak Paralyze - you're lucky if it procs once before wearing off. In before SE says it's awesome, because no monster can resist the effect...

[Insaniac]

meh...

btw can you get to 95 on the test server? would you be able to test for moar DW and crit attack bonus? :pJust confirmed Crit Attack Bonus III at level 91. It's another 3%.

[Laphine]

yay \o/ finally good news, we are sure to get another by 99 then~

[Insaniac]

yay \o/ finally good news, we are sure to get another by 99 then~
Yeah!! If there is any justice in the world we will be the only ones who get it too!. I didn't feel like checking if WAR or DNC got the new tier but I will next time I'm on the test server.

[Smush]

no DW3 sucks.....

[Laphine]

well, we certainly will have it by 99. Expecting dw3 now could open dw4 i guess, but dw4 is not something i would see them handing for us.

I'm more worried about a tool to make us forget about /nin. Something maybe akin to third eye and stuff. Bully had this potential, but as usual...

[Shiyo]

I would love not to have to sub nin if I'm going to be fighting something hard or need to actually tank. THF/war is so much more fun and so much more damage than thf/nin ._.

[Karbuncle]

Since people are getting a bunch of Mini-2hr's, THF should get something like a Mini-PD. Since MNK gets a 1min recast Perfect Counter which not only evades an attack but deals Damage, i see no reason THF's "mini-2hr" ability could be on a 1minute timer.

Have it evade a few Attacks similar to Third eye? I would have suggested a "Perfect Parry" Idea, But that was ignored and of course they gave a variant of it to NIN instead. Really those abilities really only help us when we're tanking or solo, which is a very small niche to fill.

Hopefully those aside they give us more party friendly abilities that dont have 5% proc rate and on a 5min timer with 30sec duration.

While I'm at it.

Feedback on Bully:

Its pretty awful. According to initial findings, Its a short duration, long recast, and very weak... Pretty much as i expected. A bonus is that is works on your entire party.

Some Suggestions: Lengthen Effect time, or lower recast. lets be real a moment, its a glorified Paralyze, its not that broken, its not that powerful, its pretty useless no matter what. Can we at least make it somewhat useful and revamp it like follows?

Bully
Recast:2 minutes
Duration: 1 minute (effectively keeping it up only 50% of the time)
Potency: 10~15%?

Comparison to Paralyze I/II which can be kept up 100% of the time on nearly all mobs, has a rather high activation rate with the right gear, and can be cast every few seconds.

I beg you, please do not use the "Well it ignores resists..." excuse like they did with Aura steal =.=a

5minutes Recast, 30 second duration lets you keep this epitome of useless up only 10% of the time! Its not useful! Having something on a mob 10% of the time for a low Effect rate is worthless!

Thank you for reading.

[Nebo]

I don't see myself even wasting a macro for this. Maybe somewhere out of the way if I need to claim something fast.

I can already do this MUCH better with paralyze arrows.

"But, THF's, Its SO AWESOME that it isn't subject to resists!!"

How do people this stupid get paid to develope video games?

[Shiyo]

There's really no reason for this ability to exist, I'm not sure why they keep adding abilities that serve no point and aren't needed AND don't help jobs that could use some help :/

THF having self-survivability without needing to sub NIN would also be awesome. I really really hate subbing NIN.

[Karbuncle]

I don't see myself even wasting a macro for this. Maybe somewhere out of the way if I need to claim something fast.

I can already do this MUCH better with paralyze arrows.

"But, THF's, Its SO AWESOME that it isn't subject to resists!!"

How do people this stupid get paid to develope video games?

If only i lived in Japan and had the proper credentials...

[Atomic_Skull]

THF updates always feel like they got done and at the last minute realized they had forgotten about THF and just knock something out half-ass so they can go home for the day.

[Nebo]

THF updates always feel like they got done and at the last minute realized they had forgotten about THF and just knock something out half-ass so they can go home for the day.

You are missing the point entirely.

THF is SUPPOSED to be weak and its job abilities are SUPPOSED to suck sweaty donkey balls.

TreasurePLacebo Hunter (that just so happens tobe outclassed by every single weakness trigger proc style endgame event that has been introcuded post level cap) is all you should ever have.

Shut up. Sit in the corner and take it.

[Scribe]

lol I can't wait to try out the new stuff

[Babekeke]

Well, so much for being optimistic, and hoping for a 'perfect counter' style ability ><

[SpankWustler]

I love the attitude in this topic. Other forums have topics like "Temper Info" or "Scarlet Delirium Recast" with people being shocked and outraged that their new spells and abilities are disappointing or out-right horrible.

Here, the topic is "Bully: It's really bad" with responses such as "Feedback on Bully: It's pretty awful." If someone assumed it would be good, or suggests it ever will be good, he is promptly corrected by a fellow who knows the truth of things.

You guys are the Buddhist monks of the FFXI world. You understand that all existance is suffering, any "God" (the development team) is just somebody who knows as little as we do but sits behind a bigger desk, and that coming to peace with awfulness is the only way to know tranquility.

[noodles355]

I'm trying to keep a little positive about the ability. Has anyone on the test server managed to try it out in an alliance? Maybe they missed the wording out but the affect is still much greater with a full party/ally. If it is then it could still be useful for chainspell/hundred fisting NMs n stuff.

[Insaniac]

I'm trying to keep a little positive about the ability. Has anyone on the test server managed to try it out in an alliance? Maybe they missed the wording out but the affect is still much greater with a full party/ally. If it is then it could still be useful for chainspell/hundred fisting NMs n stuff.
I couldn't get anymore than 1 person at a time to help me with testing since all people were doing on the test server was loading up with gear and using their free WoE emps for lulz.

[FANCY60]

i still cant get on is the beta at certain times

[Insaniac]

From the looks of the JP forums Bully is getting lowered to 3 minutes and I guess the intimidate rate increases with everyone in your alliance so 18/18 might = boss intimidation. Blind hope has got a hold of my ankle. Hopefully he's not here to drag me into the depths of the rage sea.

I would still like it to be a little better for low man play since it's kinda terrible for that.

[Laphine]

they should at least lower every 5min JA we have to 3min while they are at it lol

[Nebo]

they should at least lower every 5min JA we have to 3min while they are at it lol

Three minutes is still too long a recast for most of the things that have a 5 minute recast currently.

A three minute timer doesn't fix steal, aurasteal, despoil, conspirator, hide, accomplice, (even mug) etc because their base effect duration, functionality, shared recasted timers, etc. are all severely flawed and functionally useless as a result.

It would just be putting more bandaids on shotgun wounds.

3 minute recast with a 30 second duration is not going to fix bully either....

It would need to be something like what Krabnucklehead said: 2 minute recast/1 minute duration and increased potency.

[Zirael]

Three minutes is still too long a recast for most of the things that have a 5 minute recast currently.

A three minute timer doesn't fix steal, aurasteal, despoil, conspirator, hide, accomplice, (even mug) etc because their base effect duration, functionality, shared recasted timers, etc. are all severely flawed and functionally useless as a result.

It would just be putting more bandaids on shotgun wounds.

3 minute recast with a 30 second duration is not going to fix bully either....

It would need to be something like what Krabnucklehead said: 2 minute recast/1 minute duration and increased potency.
I'm starting to lean to 'work with what you've got'. 3min is better than 5, not great but slightly better. Also, look at this affect from this perspective: A 3min Provoke v2: 70% of voke hate, very slight chance of intimidation and 10-15' range. Sounds at least acceptable for claiming NMs (not like there's anything worth claiming these days tho....) and voking off mages (or at least giving them intimidation chance, better than nothing) when they pull hate and Collaborator fails/is down. I'd say PLDs would be jelly of just that, haha.
But seriously, SE, is this all you've got for THF...?

[Phen]

3 minutes with a decent intimidate rate in party isnt too bad for event play(VW/WoE etc). I doubt its allianced based as most things like company sword in the past are rated via party yes? Can probably get an accurate test with 6.


SIDE NOTE: WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE GUESSING HOW THIS WORKS. If you want us to test tell us the parameters dont make us guess. Post it in the info section on test server for things like abilities you want tested and how they currently function on THE TEST SERVER. I shouldn't be trying to figure out if something is enhanced via a certain skill and then if its over/underpowered in that situation- i should just be seeing how it plays out.

[Nebo]

I'm starting to lean to 'work with what you've got'.

Tough to work with what you got when what you got doesn't work :P

But yeah, there is no reason to believe that this level of failure from the developement team to address the real issues, or give new abilities that are anything but functionally useless gimick garbage is ever going to change.

THF is going to be a D-list DD with a bunch of useless abilities and Treasuer Hunter. To want/hope/wish for this to change is to set yourself up for dissapointment and a little anger (I'm guilty, etc).

[Nebo]

3 minutes with a decent intimidate rate in party isnt too bad for event play(VW/WoE etc).

Perhaps in the context of what it is now, but really....what good is a weak ass 30 second duration paralyze on a 3 minute timer?

Sure, 3 minutes is better than 5...but it's still crap. I don't really care what they do to the recast if they don't up the duration/potency.

[Phen]

Perhaps in the context of what it is now, but really....what good is a weak ass 30 second duration paralyze on a 3 minute timer?

Sure, 3 minutes is better than 5...but it's still crap. I don't really care what they do to the recast if they don't up the duration/potency.

Concurred, but we really need some solid numbers for a 6 man group. It is entirely possible its exponential per party member.

[Zirael]

Tough to work with what you got when what you got doesn't work :P

But yeah, there is no reason to believe that this level of failure from the developement team to address the real issues, or give new abilities that are anything but functionally useless gimick garbage is ever going to change.

THF is going to be a D-list DD with a bunch of useless abilities and Treasuer Hunter. To want/hope/wish for this to change is to set yourself up for dissapointment and a little anger (I'm guilty, etc).
Playing a game with 3/4 of the issues stamped with "PS2 limitations" should've taught us to work around annoyances already, hahaha. After what we've been given about Aura Steal awesomeness, I doubt Bully will be adjusted to anything better than it is now. Sure, it's not Impetus, Scarlet Delirium, Blood Rage or even Temper, but at least our own voke. It has always bugged me that being /nin makes you virtually useless in Dragon's Aery :P Don't get me wrong, I think SE could've done better than a mixture of weak Provoke and 30s Paralyze, but I see what they've tried doing there. I won't say it's a success, but kudos for trying. I'm still waiting for that "shining" thing they've promised to THF tho, definitely not this update...
Hey, look at RDMs, they're scratching their heads looking at Temper and thinking to themselves, what the hell happened to their manifesto and buffing people to godlike levels (I'm RDM second, so, yes...).

[Zirael]

Concurred, but we really need some solid numbers for a 6 man group. It is entirely possible its exponential per party member.
Got to wait ~4h more for translation, but there was something there that bonus is affected by number of people on hate list (not even same party/alliance) and 'but there is a cap to that'. Unless I've misread it completely.

[Shiyo]

They should make the proc rate 50-75% or something insanely high, keep the 30 second duration and make it 3-5 min CD. This would make it take skill to use properly, you'd have to time it for when you NEEDED the intimidate. Lowering the cooldown more will just make it a dumb boring no skill ability you just hit everytime the cooldown is up :/

[Phen]

Got to wait ~4h more for translation, but there was something there that bonus is affected by number of people on hate list (not even same party/alliance) and 'but there is a cap to that'. Unless I've misread it completely.
Hmm, i suppose it could be related to that since its an effect on the mob rather than on the player. Need to see if this counts as a debuff that can be erased by things like exuviation as well.

[Arcon]

I'm actually pretty happy with these announcements. I need to do more TH testing (with WS this time!) before they change that. And Bully sounds like it'll be a nice claim tool and even an actually helpful ability for big alliances (zerg situations I suppose, like Feint).

[Laphine]

Yeah i'll probably won't use Bully for its paralyze effect as it stands. But a claim tool and a 3min voke for when i lose hate is kinda interesting.

[noodles355]

3min voke? Does it generate significant enmity?

[Laphine]

insaniac's op. He said it had 70% the enmity of a voke.

[AldielQuetz]

I'm no THF but this is as good a place as any to say this:

Listen Dev's, we know you are working hard, we know this is what you came up with and to have it be so widely rejected as little more than basically useless might hurt your feelings but your player base loves you... Listen to them.

Thank you.

[FANCY60]

im in the uk having trouble getting on the test site after all the downloading and extracting still cant get on any suggestions ppl

[Kitkat]

Yeah, bully is horrible. Most times it doesn't intimidate at all before wearing off and if it does..then it maybe intimidates once or twice. Having a hard time seeing the utility of a ability that hardly functions.

As for FANCY60, what problem are you running into and possibly would be better to post something in the test server section to get help. I know currently the POL shortcut doesn't work, will always give you a network error unless you click Final Fantasy XI. At least it does that to me. Other than that I haven't had any trouble with getting logged on, but a friend of mine says that connection speeds are a little nasty where she is (italy).

[Malacite]

So it doesn't even outright freeze it like when we get hit by Terror?

...

[Komori]

Of course not, it works like the weakest paralyze and wears off in 30 seconds. It's only upside is it may be more potent in an alliance rather than in solo situations. And the recast is 5 mins (maybe moved to 3).

[Bayohne]

The recast time for Bully has been reduced from 5 minutes to 3 minutes, and while active, the effects of Treasure Hunter are more likely to increase. (However, the probability of the opponent being intimidated is lowered in correlation to the number of players involved in the battle.)

The updated data is now reflected on the Test Server, so please give it a shot.

[Nebo]

The recast time for Bully has been reduced from 5 minutes to 3 minutes, and while active, the effects of Treasure Hunter are more likely to increase. (However, the probability of the opponent being intimidated is lowered in correlation to the number of players involved in the battle.)

The updated data is now reflected on the Test Server, so please give it a shot.

Wait...what? They lowered the intimidation rate?

[Mirage]

I don't really understand implementing this ability. What I thought would be given to thief, and what I thought would fit thief pretty well was the ability ninjas got. can't you just give thief Perfect Parry instead? Something like 100% to parry the first attack, 80% to parry the next, lowering chance with each attack, first failed parry makes the ability end. Or have the chance of parrying multiple attacks depend on your parrying skill in some way or other.

[Vold]

The recast time for Bully has been reduced from 5 minutes to 3 minutes, and while active, the effects of Treasure Hunter are more likely to increase. (However, the probability of the opponent being intimidated is lowered in correlation to the number of players involved in the battle.)

The updated data is now reflected on the Test Server, so please give it a shot.So Bully just became the modernized version of JP button? Sorta, kinda. Sweet. Increased TH procs that will result in more drops over a currently unknown, extended amount of time, at the push of a button. I'd buy that for a dollar!

[Alaik]

Wait...what? They lowered the intimidation rate?

I'm telling you, the day they ditch PS2 for PC is going to be the day they decide the PS2 can't support the amount of 0's they want in an activation rate for a THF JA.

[Seha]

lolbully.

-------

[Shiyo]

Yay, the ability is actually usable now and has a point!

[FrankReynolds]

This sounds freaking awful. Did they increase the base intimidation rate at least, before nerfing it for group use? Can treasure hunter go into the 20s now?

[Zirael]

Wait...what? They lowered the intimidation rate?
Same as with Subtle Blow, whenever Treasure Hunter is involved, every other aspect get's nerfed. So as a trade off for better TH upgrade chance you lose intimidation potency. Let's face it, that intimidation rate was junk in the first place, not like your alliance will miss it anyway.
Animated Flourish with better chance of TH upgrade - I'll take it, better than nothing. Now, if only TH3+ had any effect on anything...

[Bayohne]

I think you guys might have missed this aspect of Bully, that was posted by Camate a few days ago:



Depending on how many players are in the battle, the rate of intimidation will increase (*2), so please try it out (of course there is a cap).

*2 If a player outside of the party has generated enmity on the enemy (for example, an outside WHM curing a THF in the party), even players outside of the party will be considered as participating in the battle.

However, to further balance it with a lowered recast, it did receive minor potency adjustments.
*Edit: Sorry, trying to make this really clear!

[Insaniac]

The recast time for Bully has been reduced from 5 minutes to 3 minutes, and while active, the effects of Treasure Hunter are more likely to increase. (However, the probability of the opponent being intimidated is lowered in correlation to the number of players involved in the battle.)

The updated data is now reflected on the Test Server, so please give it a shot.I would be marginally excited if we had any proof of TH procs doing anything. Any chance we can get some info on how TH beyond TH2 works?

[FrankReynolds]

I think you guys might have missed this aspect of Bully, that was posted by Camate a few days ago:



It's not saying it was "lowered", it's stating the above, that the effect has a lower chance of activation based on how many people are involved in the battle. Hopefully this clears it up!

So your saying that it procs more often in larger groups? :)

[Zirael]

I think you guys might have missed this aspect of Bully, that was posted by Camate a few days ago:



It's not saying it was "lowered", it's stating the above, that the effect has a lower chance of activation based on how many people are involved in the battle. Hopefully this clears it up!
The text posted by Camate does not say that intimidation rate decreases as a number of players increases, only that there is a correlation. Everyone assumed it would increase, since if used solo it was proccing 0-2 time within 30s time frame = it couldn't possibly get worse than that...
Thank you for clarification!

[Nebo]

I think you guys might have missed this aspect of Bully, that was posted by Camate a few days ago:



However, to further balance it with a lowered recast, it did receive minor potency adjustments.
*Edit: Sorry, trying to make this really clear!

I don't think anyone missed that. Well, I didn't at least.

My problem is this: A 5 minute recast with a 30 second duration....even it its strongest state was unbalanced too far toward the "useless Job ability" end of the spectrum....like almost every other job ability THF has.

30 seconds is too short a window to make an intimidation ability like bully useful. And most things a THF does now do NOT involve large groups.

So the idea that it was necessary to decrease Bully's potency to lower its absurdly long recast from 5 minutes to 3 is more than a bit silly.

I'm sorry, I'm just tired of hearing the word "balance" in sentences about THF job abilities when all it means is "we aren't giving you a functionally useful form of this ability" i.e.: Aurasteal, Steal, Mug, Despoil, Conspirator, etc, etc.

I don't understand why the developement team insists on creating job abilities that SOUND awesome but have to nerf them into something that isn't functionally useful.

Since the level cap increase, you have done a great job of "balancing" all of the functional utility out of the job abilities you have added to THF. THF NEEDS SOMETHING THAT IS USEFUL

My suggestion: Get rid of the variable potency on bully. Give it a mediumish potency across the board (not horrible for solo, but less than its maximum activation rate for a full alliance). Then, increase the duration to one minute with a 3 minute recast.

[koanyan]

I'm for what nebo say.

A little question I have is why thf is the only job development team think need to be in party to have full potent effect from a ja and not other job.Why that haven't been done for sam,nin,rng,drk ability(new or old one).

[FrankReynolds]

I think you guys might have missed this aspect of Bully, that was posted by Camate a few days ago:

However, to further balance it with a lowered recast, it did receive minor potency adjustments.
*Edit: Sorry, trying to make this really clear!

Any chance that you could explain what ( if anything ) that Treasure Hunter over TH2 does? What was the point of adding that on to this ability?

[Insaniac]

I can feel my rage gland twitching. If the dev team was willing to lower the recast timer of the ability because it wasn't powerful enough.. why at the same time did they lower the intimidate rate? I mean.. what the f*ck? They just made it underpowered in a different way.

SE - "Here's a bowl of week old corn for you to eat."
THFs - "We don't wanna eat that. Can we have some fresh corn?"
SE - "Ok, here. Eat this fresh corn that we put this week old gravy on."

[Alhanelem]

We are soon going to be 20 levels over the long standing 75 cap. Why can't abilities get more badass as we go? Why does a new ability have to still offer little advantage over existing stuff?

[Mefuki]

But, guys, guys.

About Bully:
"...the effects of Treasure Hunter are more likely to increase."

You guys get more TH. That's all you guys should ever want, yes? :P

Looks like TH is why you can't have nice things.

[Insaniac]

Looks like TH is why you can't have nice things.
Too bad the one thing holding us back doesn't seem to actually exist.

[Laphine]

TH is a better raison d'tre for sure. They should just swap the description to "increases TH proc rate". Anyway, this said increase is just as good as the paralyze i bet...

[Karbuncle]

you know, Bitching aside, I'm actually happy they added Something to it. And in case its unclear, I think what Bayohne is trying to say that before, Intimidate would work like this (numbers = Persons in hate list)

1 = 5%
2 = 10%
3 = 15%
4 = 20%
5 = 25%
6 = 30%
7 = 35%
8 = 40%
and so on

But now, Due to reduced recast its

1) 4%
2) 8%
3) 12%
4) 16%
5) 20%

and so on. It still goes up, But the rate of which it goes up is lower than before. (These are fake numbers fyi just an example to explain how i interpreted it).

-------------
That being said, I am a little disappointed too, that they continue to feel THFs abilities are too powerful, that any adjustment needs a nerf.

Camate, Bayohne, Can you ask the Development team to stop giving us abilities they consider too powerful that they become limited, useless, or very situational? I mean, Bully was a nice idea, But the recast and duration make it almost useless, its worse than a Circle Effect.

No one uses Circle Effects for anything except the extra damage. So we basically got a universal Circle effect with none of the reasons people actually use it.

There is no reason to use Bully now unless you want to upgrade TH, and I wont ever use it for that until someone tells me the difference between TH2 and TH20 is more than 0.1% drop rate added per level, Because its not worth the 180del added to my attacks, its not worth my DPS loss.

Basically, Thief is an underpowered job, the solution is not giving us a Glorified Paralyze with Lower Proc rate and 10x Less duration on a 20x Longer recast. We don't want an ability "they" consider powerful because of something dumb "It ignores resists bro" when in order to accommodate this apparently "Vast" power, they feel the need to limit its uses incredibly.

Thank you very much guys :)

[Insaniac]

The question is.. is there some area of job expansion that the devs would be willing to explore that would allow them to make JAs that don't suck for THF? I'm starting to accept the fact that they want us to be sub par at everything to balance out our ability to increase drop rates of items at an undetectable rate over the next best option. They clearly aren't willing to change their minds about it or bully wouldn't be so stupid right out of the gate. I'm ready to throw in the towel honestly.

[FrankReynolds]

I have so much angry crap to say about this I don't even know where to start. Screw it.

[Urteil]

Everyone needs to play Samurai and Blue Mage.

[Shiyo]

You forgot warrior and WHM.

[Lordscyon]

Thf need flee2 not bully lol

[Alaik]

We need TH4 that gives a .5% increase to a 1% drop! That makes up for the 1/3 DD output and lack of utility.

[FrankReynolds]

Does anyone think its funny that even though at the top of thief discussion there is a thread with testing showing that Treasure hunter 2 + probably doesn't do shit..... and another thread all about how Thief knife Sucks and people want a better damage dagger, or to get rid of it entirely......

The reps only seem to respond with answers to questions that nobody in here even asked about crappy ass job abilities that everyone pretty much agrees aren't good?

Who the hell asked for more treasure hunter procs?

[Theytak]

Does anyone think its funny that even though at the top of thief discussion there is a thread with testing showing that Treasure hunter 2 + probably doesn't do shit..... and another thread all about how Thief knife Sucks and people want a better damage dagger, or to get rid of it entirely......

The reps only seem to respond with answers to questions that nobody in here even asked about crappy ass job abilities that everyone pretty much agrees aren't good?

Who the hell asked for more treasure hunter procs?

The JP thfs, probably. I know that everything they've decided to give pup this update is based on what the JP pups want, and only what the JP pups want (pet Subtle Blow and overload that doesn't actually happen), as opposed to what the english speaking pups want (useful shit, like fixing the whm puppet's retarded AI). Someone who can read/translate Japanese could check the JP thf forum to be sure, but I'm pretty certain this is the cause. (I feel for you guys, Pup's been the playerbase's buttmonkey for ages, so I can empathize with thf being the dev team's buttmonkey)

[DebbieGibson]

They probably aren't responding to that because TH does work and there is no bug or issue with it at all.

[Theytak]

They probably aren't responding to that because TH does work and there is no bug or issue with it at all.

Prove it.

...oh wait.

[FrankReynolds]

Debbie just trolls threads. Move along. Nothing to see here.


I wish Google translate worked well enough to post on there. I noticed that Wyvern JA got boosted even though all the English forums thought it was freaking amazing all ready. I went on the JP forums and sure enough, they were all complaining that it was weak.

[Zirael]

Debbie just trolls threads. Move along. Nothing to see here.


I wish Google translate worked well enough to post on there. I noticed that Wyvern JA got boosted even though all the English forums thought it was freaking amazing all ready. I went on the JP forums and sure enough, they were all complaining that it was weak.
Someone's THF mule wasn't proccing enough, probably. :(
Sad that up to level95 the ultimate THF accomplishment is full-timing Thief Knife, Assassin's Armlet's and Raider's Poulaines +2. Vajra does not matter, Mandau does not matter, Twashtar does not matter. If you're not using Thief Knife in events you'll be called gimp, idiot and bastard.

And even then a WHM/THF sporting a Taruratu Sash is more relevant than you, since TH3 is as good as it gets for droprates + they can still cure/haste/erase. Not even /thf is needed for Voidwatch, Burning Circle battles, WoE, a lot of Abyssea etc.

Any strategic utility that might've come out of Bully (aka Animated Flourish v2 - it has the same enmity generation and roughly same range, apparently) was thrown out of the window as soon as Treasure Hunter proc rate was put in the mix. You will full time the Bully recast timer for TH procs, because that's all that's left for THF to do. If mages pull hate, you'll have nothing to help them. By the time you run up to mages (IF they are in the same party), target them with Collaborator/Accomplice, they've either used Enmity Douse already or taken enough damage to lose hate anyway (or tanks have done their job and took the situation under control again).

[noodles355]

The FFXI Dev team only listens to japanese players? Wow, that's surprising. Oh wait, concidering every Q&A post by a forum rep is in response to questions by Japanese players translated into english. Rangers complaining about blast shot being a melee WS? Are you fucking kidding me?

It's an absolute joke. It's fucking appaling that FFXI's dev team only listens to feed back from one nationality of players. And what's worse is there is not enough complaining from the other nationalities about it. There needs to be a fucking crusade from english, french, german, american, italian, australasion, finnish and every other nationality that basically says FUCKING LISTEN TO US TOO.

[Theytak]

The FFXI Dev team only listens to japanese players? Wow, that's surprising. Oh wait, concidering every Q&A post by a forum rep is in response to questions by Japanese players translated into english. Rangers complaining about blast shot being a melee WS? Are you fucking kidding me?

It's an absolute joke. It's fucking appaling that FFXI's dev team only listens to feed back from one nationality of players. And what's worse is there is not enough complaining from the other nationalities about it. There needs to be a fucking crusade from english, french, german, american, italian, australasion, finnish and every other nationality that basically says FUCKING LISTEN TO US TOO.someone could always be ballsy and go post in the JP feedback forums in some language other than english, stating that "Hey, I know we're not japanese, but we play FFXI and we have opinions and feedback, too"

[Catmato]

However, to further balance it with a lowered recast, it did receive minor potency adjustments.
*Edit: Sorry, trying to make this really clear!

I don't understand. How could the activation rate possibly be lowered? Now instead of activating 0-2 times every five minutes, it'll activate 0-1 time every three minutes? How does anyone think this JA is remotely useful?

[Airget]

Honestly were people really expecting a godly ability that would allow for a high intimidation rate? Get real lol the concept to make an intimidation ability is really a hit or miss where it's very luck based. If anything it should be a COR JA rather then a THF one.

What if since THF is so caught up on it's TH effect, why not make an ability that increase it's dmg based on the lv of TH on the mob?

"Hunter's Instinct" -Increases damage based on current TH on the mob-
duration 30 second
recast 5 mins
TH=1(2% increase in damage)
TH=10(20% increase in damage)

As for Bully, think of the term Bully, to pick on make fun of and such. So what if instead of an intimidation rate it took hate from all in the part and added it to itself. Then for the 30-45 second duration their attack increases based on the amount of enmity they drained. In this essence the more in party the stronger the ability which would encourage them for team play but at the same time the hate drained is dependent on how much enmity person is putting in.

"Bully" -AoE absorb hate from others to increase att-
Duration 45 seconds
recast 5 mins.

------
But see if you think about it, while people are so focused with how they only seem to be a TH, why don't we consider abilities that work while TH is active on a mob. Heck there are some mobs where TH is pointless so what about JA that lower TH on a mob to perform special tricks. Like in a BCNM, could have a move that lowers TH rate by 1 to increase crit rate against the mob. The TH decay moves would basically be enfeebles you can inflict on the mob, however if you did want some form of balance you could have the % of it working be based on dagger skill, agility and intelligence or something.

I don't play THF but judging from what people are saying I"m pretty confident they would want the above rather then something that gives them the chance to omit one attack phase in a 30 second period.

[Karbuncle]

Really good ideas. My favorite is Lowering Treasure Hunter by 1-2 To perform special things, It not only gives a middle finger to TH (a positive in my book) but it'd help the THF DD, and especially help them in fights where TH Doesn't mean jack! (like Treasure in every fight in the game when its past level 2 :D!!!!)

On a side note


Honestly were people really expecting

We were expecting it to be shit, but not this shit. Look around about the time it was announced, We all Knew it would be utter crap, We were just hoping it wasn't A-Grade Utter crap. lol

[Catmato]

Honestly were people really expecting a godly ability that would allow for a high intimidation rate?

I wasn't expecting something that didn't work, then nerfed to work less.

[noodles355]

It may have been nerfed to work less, but at least it can not work more often!

[Modoru]

First I get the middle finger called
"Despoil", now I get "Bully". Fuck you SE. :C

[Riggs]

[QUOTE=However, to further balance it with a lowered recast, it did receive minor potency adjustments.
*Edit: Sorry, trying to make this really clear![/QUOTE]

O great so they lowered the timer and just made it crap instead, another complete waste of time

[Reaux]

So let us take a tally yes?

We have 2 Stealing abilities with long recast times, with nothing exciting or interesting steal that we cannot get using TH or people /THF can get with little effort.

Steal augmented by merits has a chance, yes chance even at full merits, to steal buff from an enemy. It requires Steal to be unsuccessful , there are many buffs we cannot steal, it does not work on many of the more interesting mobs, it shares a timer with Despoil

Despoil, has a seperate pool of items, and has a chance to debuff an enemy. It chooses the debuff for us based on the mob and item stolen, does not always succeed, requires a 5 minute wait to try again, shares a timer with Steal.

The 2 Steal abilities, SE has said, will not be upgraded with better pools because they do not want THF to have control over a part of the in-game economy. They believe it is unfair for us to make a large profit for an ability, though they continue to upgrade TH and no one is banned from also leveling the job.

Aura Steal will not be changed because they believe the ability would be over powered on a separate timer. However many jobs have the ability to dispel buffs on an enemy with a shorter timer that is independent of a another JA or spell, many of the stealable buffs, outside of duration, can be cast on us by party members, SE has complete control over what we can and cannot dispel already so continuing to do so would not really be an issue to make it not OP. They are also giving the same ability to DRK as a spell, meaning it cannot possibly be OP if another job gets the same ability, unmerited and untied to another ability or spell.

Outside of this we "get" Bully....while the concept is interesting, AoE party intimidate, the duration and proc rate is too low to be useful. It also has a high recast time at the original and new timers for something with such a time to work its magic. The idea that the timer cannot be lowered without lowering the potency is also just silly. We now have a shorter timer for less of a chance of it working?

We have been asking for a long time for better and more interesting abilities outside of TH: simple things like shorter Steal/Despoil timers, separate timers on those JA's, a more interesting/profitable steal pool so we have a reason to use the JA that helps define our class which is to get items and make profit, many of us have said we are fine with lowered TH in an exchange for more DD capability or some other skill to augment our role. It seems you refuse to listen to the rather simple and very loud requests, These have not been happening just recently on these forums, but for years on many other gaming sites. Why are you not listening?

[Xanthe]

Has anyone here actually bothered to test Bully in a large group setting? Beyohne's explanation is very clear that solo we won't see much of an intimidation rate, but with larger groups it will increase. If you were 1 on 1 with someone bullying you, you probably wouldn't be too intimidated, but imagine if it was them and 7 of their friends. The duration *might* need some tweaking, but until the group size potency increase has been tested it's too soon to be dismissing this ability. Something else to keep in mind is that Bully would stack with other intimidation traits and Paralyze, and it would be effective against enemies that are immune to Paralyze to begin with.

[Reaux]

Has anyone here actually bothered to test Bully in a large group setting? Beyohne's explanation is very clear that solo we won't see much of an intimidation rate, but with larger groups it will increase. If you were 1 on 1 with someone bullying you, you probably wouldn't be too intimidated, but imagine if it was them and 7 of their friends. The duration *might* need some tweaking, but until the group size potency increase has been tested it's too soon to be dismissing this ability. Something else to keep in mind is that Bully would stack with other intimidation traits and Paralyze, and it would be effective against enemies that are immune to Paralyze to begin with.

Did you notice that the potency decrease was lowered with more party members? That was the trade off...less intimidate for the ability to add more TH, which nobody asked for, and lowered recast. The last part was the only thing people really wanted.

[Xanthe]

Did you notice that the potency decrease was lowered with more party members? That was the trade off...less intimidate for the ability to add more TH, which nobody asked for, and lowered recast. The last part was the only thing people really wanted.

I think you mean to say that the overall potency was decreased in order to balance a lower recast. The potency still increases in proportion to the number of people with incurred enmity both inside and outside the party/alliance, though likely at a reduced rate as well. Karbuncle already outlined this with his "fake numbers" here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13766-Bully-it-s-really-bad.?p=187685&viewfull=1#post187685).

[FrankReynolds]

I think you mean to say that the overall potency was decreased in order to balance a lower recast. The potency still increases in proportion to the number of people with incurred enmity both inside and outside the party/alliance, though likely at a reduced rate as well. Karbuncle already outlined this with his "fake numbers" here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13766-Bully-it-s-really-bad.?p=187685&viewfull=1#post187685).

Somehow I see this not being used. Any time where the group is big enough for this to be useful (if it even gets good in big groups.) is going to against a monster that you don't want the thief spamming a ghetto provoke on in between sneak attacks and trick attacks.

[Nebo]

Has anyone here actually bothered to test Bully in a large group setting? Beyohne's explanation is very clear that solo we won't see much of an intimidation rate, but with larger groups it will increase. If you were 1 on 1 with someone bullying you, you probably wouldn't be too intimidated, but imagine if it was them and 7 of their friends. The duration *might* need some tweaking, but until the group size potency increase has been tested it's too soon to be dismissing this ability. Something else to keep in mind is that Bully would stack with other intimidation traits and Paralyze, and it would be effective against enemies that are immune to Paralyze to begin with.

Even in best cast scenario before, if it was as effective as a potent RDM paralyze with 18+ people (which it isn't, especially on HNM style monsters where the intimidation rate was even lower), 30 sceonds duration with a long recast is too short a window of opportunity to be made useful.

[Lokithor]

I'm not on the test server to try anything out but I get the feeling that people are misinterpreting what SE is saying when they say the rate of intimidation increases with the number of party members. Especially when coupled with Camate's confusing post "However, the probability of the opponent being intimidated is lowered in correlation to the number of players involved in the battle".

I believe the intimidation effect did not change with the number of party members. It is simply that each party member has an equal chance to intimidate the mob. Therefore, the net effect is a higher overall rate of intimidation with higher numbers of party members. If a single player has x% chance to intimidate, then each party member also has an x% chance to intimidate. This is why the effect seems so lame when tested by single thfs. It was probably linear - each additional member had exactly the same chance to intimidate. Adding 1 member added an additional x% net intimidation rate.

Now with the lowered recast, the effect for additional party members is no longer linear. Where before, each player had a x% chance of intimidation, it is probably now x% only for single member party, and lowered % of intimidation for each additional member. For example, with 2 members, it might be 0.8*x (for each person). For 3 members, it might be 0.8*0.8*x% and so on.

[Nebo]

I'm not on the test server to try anything out but I get the feeling that people are misinterpreting what SE is saying when they say the rate of intimidation increases with the number of party members.

I don't think anyone is misinterpreting that.

IE: The the base rate effect was only stonger in a group becuase there were more people there to have a chance at intimidating.

They have, in fact, now lowered that chance to intimidate (which was already pretty low for NMs...the only place you'd really need/want somrthing like this) in correlation to the number of people present in order to justify (to themselves) lowering the recast to 3 minutes (which is still too long for a 30 second ability).

So the effect itself, still has an opportunity wondow that is much to short, and is now weaker than it was before we were complaining about it.

See the problem?

[Lokithor]

I don't think anyone is misinterpreting that.
Thank you for your insightful contribution to my post.

[Nebo]

Thank you for your insightful contribution to my post.

You are most welcome :D. Thank you for your insightful contribution to this thread!

[Lokithor]

You are most welcome :D. Thank you for your insightful contribution to this thread!
Ninja edits!! Your edits now add to the discussion.;)

Regardless of how the effect works, the whole Bully JA is definitely in the "Wot?" category.

In particular, adding a TH effect to the newly nerfed Bully really shows that SE doesn't get it. Thfs don't want to be just TH whores. LS Thfs will now be required to always ride the Bully timer to pump up the placebo.

[Nebo]

Ninja edits!! Your edits now add to the discussion.;)

Regardless of how the effect works, the whole Bully JA is definitely in the "Wot?" category.

In particular, adding a TH effect to the newly nerfed Bully really shows that SE doesn't get it. Thfs don't want to be just TH whores. LS Thfs will now be required to always ride the Bully timer to pump up the placebo.

I'm actually all for more ways to actively increase treasure hunter, and to somehow make that tied to active melee combat. I like that they added this to Bully, but we'll have to test it to see if it is a meaningful increased chance. (but yeah this is also kind of "meh" because the effects of "Increased Treasure Hunter Effectiveness level" seem to be very minescule.)

I like ideas that I see flowing around about a Damage boost being tied to TH level...

I would take that a step further with an increase of the chance to raise treasure hunter effectiveness level based on the level of damage the THF does. Lower Damage = less chance, Better damage = increased chance.

This way, better Thieves with better weapons (relics/empyreans etc), gear and a greater understanding of their melee aspect will be, in fact, better at iraising Treasure Hunter effectiveness than a THF mule with 3 pieces of gear...The Best DD THF, THE best Geared THF , THE most skilled THF would be one in the same with the best Treasure Hunter THF.

...Add to that a damage bonus for the THF based on the current Treasure Hunter level = TH whore job fixed.

You could do all sorts of things with our current abilities to compliment this as well:

Steal: Instead of stealing crap items, raisesTreasure Hunter effectiveness level by one
Mug: Instead of stealing gil, raises Treasure Hunter Effectiveness level by 2.
Bully: Increases the chances of raising the Treasure Hunter effectivenes level.
Perfect Dodge: Grants an increased chance to raise treasure hunter effectiveness level and grants a greater damage boost based on Treasure Hunter Effectiveness level.

etc etc....you wouldn't even need to lower their recast timers.

...All of a sudden every THF ability has synergy with its core functions.

[RygaenYuui]

If the Dev team wants to give us skills to make us more marketable for large groups, then great; the gaming mechanic to where we actually fit in or become marketable to alliance pt mechanic is the questionable side of all of this myriad of dilemma...if we're supposed to be managing enmity, increasing drops, and doing spike damage, the bridge to get there has been burnt more than once.

[Nynja]

So Bully sucks in what its supposed to do. Look at the bright side: 8 years later, thf has a native claiming JA, good enough for me :)

theres probably going to be gear that "augments" bully as well.

[Nebo]

Has anyone else noticed a difference in Treasure Hunter Procs under bully? I haven't noticed a difference at all...as a matter of fact I haven't been able to get TH to proc under bully yet at all....but then again the effect only last a very short duration sooo...yeah.

It does not appear to be any sort of meaningful increase that would even do anything in 30 seconds or less.

[Mefuki]

Hey, Airget's idea on page 10 is pretty good. He might be onto something!

[Zirael]

Hey, Airget's idea on page 10 is pretty good. He might be onto something!
Thief's Wife would never allow such a thing. :(

[noodles355]

Make the intimidation of Bully powerful in a large group, remove the TH bonus upgrades, keep the timer at 3 minutes.
THAT would have been a useful ability. You pop it on dangerous HNM 2HRs like 100 Fists or Chainspell.

SE have once again showed they have absolutely no idea what they want thief to do. They need to make up their fucking minds.

Bully was intended to be a JA that intimidates the enemy, to follow the debuffing aspect of their thief job vision. But then they went and added an increased TH effect to it. It will no longer be used as a debuffing ability but as a means to increase TH. Well done.

Seriously, the japanese thief forum must just only be saying "we don't care about anything other than TH. give us more ways to increase TH". Well I think it's about time SE stopped only listening to ONE PART OF THE PLAYERBASE. How in god's name can they justify only taking feedback from japanese players whilst completely ignoring European, North American, Australasian and any other nationailty? It's absolutely fucking appaling.

[Shiyo]

Make the intimidation of Bully powerful in a large group, remove the TH bonus upgrades, keep the timer at 3 minutes.
THAT would have been a useful ability. You pop it on dangerous HNM 2HRs like 100 Fists or Chainspell.

SE have once again showed they have absolutely no idea what they want thief to do. They need to make up their fucking minds.

Bully was intended to be a JA that intimidates the enemy, to follow the debuffing aspect of their thief job vision. But then they went and added an increased TH effect to it. It will no longer be used as a debuffing ability but as a means to increase TH. Well done.

Seriously, the japanese thief forum must just only be saying "we don't care about anything other than TH. give us more ways to increase TH". Well I think it's about time SE stopped only listening to ONE PART OF THE PLAYERBASE. How in god's name can they justify only taking feedback from japanese players whilst completely ignoring European, North American, Australasian and any other nationailty? It's absolutely fucking appaling.
I don't think this is true at all, every JP player I've encountered has said cor is "ROLL JOB ONLY" yet they keep buffing COr's DD. I also don't know of any JP RDM's who even think of meleeing or any JP player who has ever considered RDM a melee job at all, yet they're buffing RDM melee.

[Nynja]

Thats because they placed X jobs to Y nationalities:
RDM falls under NA feedback, THF falls under JP feedback.

[Shiyo]

<__< LOL

If that's true(I know it's not still funny), then I'm quitting RDM.

[Karbuncle]

Whatever the reasoning or excuse, Is abundantly clear despite Camates and others best effort, The suggestions they send from the NA/EU/Etc Forum get thrown into a trashcan as the devs JPONRY everything. the Q:A Questions make that clear.

Its clear some of the things we ask for are a bit insane, But after compiling a lot of ideas in this section, a lot of the suggestions seem very reasonable. Small things like allowing SA and TA to force a crit from any direction, but only receive DEX/AGI boost in correct position. Or widening the SA range to simply "Being out of sight" Like it was originally intended. Buffing Mug/Steal/Despoil, or at least splitting steal/despoil timers, and so on.

As far as RDM melee and Temper go, I think that spell has been in the .dats for some time, they probably didn't have a RDM update, and said "fk it lets add temper" and threw it in in the last minute (Hence why it had a farking 5% proc rate, probably designed back in 2004 When that would have been gamebreaking).

[Byrth]

I'm fairly sure Temper is new, actually. I'm not sure SE actually listens to anyone at all when they make the Q&A. They may just be inventing both halves.

[Insaniac]

I think they use our mutual ignorance against us. The JP forums are probably saying "WRY ONRY RISTEN TO ENGRISH PRAYERS!?" When in fact they are just ignoring everyone.

[Arcon]

I'm fairly sure Temper is new, actually. I'm not sure SE actually listens to anyone at all when they make the Q&A. They may just be inventing both halves.

I've been thinking that for some time.

[Karbuncle]

I'm fairly sure Temper is new, actually. I'm not sure SE actually listens to anyone at all when they make the Q&A. They may just be inventing both halves.

Could have sworn, way back when i got altanaviewer, there was a Temper-esque spell somewhere in the White Magic Dats. I guess I could be wrong :(

That being said, Some of the questions asked really are just... IDK.

Also, I feel like half/all of the abilities they released were released purposefully bad, so when they "updated" them it felt like they were listening to us and doing something :P

I don't.. really believe that, Its too cynical, Just thought it funny.

[FrankReynolds]

I don't think the JP forums wanted treasure hunter either. But they don't complain about how fake it is like us, so the devs probably figured it would shut them up if they added it (I don't see any testing on there, so they may actually think this is a buff). I have read through a bunch of JP forums with Google translate, and a lot of the adjustments and questions are directly from the JP forums (ie. boosting the wyvern damage down effect that everyone in the English threads thought was great all ready.)

[SpankWustler]

What if since THF is so caught up on it's TH effect, why not make an ability that increase it's dmg based on the lv of TH on the mob?

"Hunter's Instinct" -Increases damage based on current TH on the mob-
duration 30 second
recast 5 mins
TH=1(2% increase in damage)
TH=10(20% increase in damage)

I just skimmed and missed this earlier, but something like this would be amazing. Even if it only affected critical hits or had a similar limitation, it would still be an amazing ability. One of Thief's main problems currently is that it's abilities don't work as well together as they once did, so Treasure Hunter providing a bonus to damage would be great.

I'm not sure it's an issue of SE only listening to one part of the community so much as one guy on the development team being less bright than the rest, or maybe the team as a whole having limited experience with certain jobs. At any rate, I doubt anything is intentional and I strongly suspect some dude on the Japanese forums who really enjoys Thief is screaming "WHY DO WHITE PEOPLE LIKE TREASURE HUNTER?!"

[Karbuncle]

I want to Expand on Airget's Idea... Because it really is quite lovely.




Thats all i got.

[Babekeke]

I actually see 1 reason to use bully... Dynamis. We finally have a reliable JA to proc the JA dynamis mobs. If this then allows us to increase TH easier, then great. I've only done 3 dynas since the update, but in all 3, steal has never landed, and I'm always /nin for pulling, so I can't proc on the JA mobs.

(The fact that steal hasn't landed is unsurprising really since I have 0 steal + gear)

[Arcon]

I've only done 3 dynas since the update, but in all 3, steal has never landed, and I'm always /nin for pulling, so I can't proc on the JA mobs.

Does it have to land to proc? I guess it does raise the chances a little, but 3min recast doesn't help much.

[Karbuncle]

Does it have to land to proc? I guess it does raise the chances a little, but 3min recast doesn't help much.

I'm 99% positive in order for Steal to proc, It either has to Successfully steal a Coin, Or Actually Absorb a Buff (Dispel wont work, Only Absorbing it from my experience)

But a Missed steal, and by extent, mug, Cannot proc. So both rather useless. So is a JA on a 3 minute timer. Still better off subbing DNC if your goal is JA mobs. >.O.

[Zirael]

I'm fairly sure Temper is new, actually. I'm not sure SE actually listens to anyone at all when they make the Q&A. They may just be inventing both halves.
On some JP Q&A (google translate) I saw quotes of specific people's posts and then Dev's answer. This does not get converted into EN, because original posts are in JP, so no point.
As for not listening, at least just after any version update SE monitor many forums in search of exploits/bugs people found (remember how fast 99999 Cures were fixed? or Nyzul weapons giving aftermath?). So they are aware what is being said. Taking it into account is another matter.
Things like 5 years later SE saying "we will look into PUP Damage Gauge & Scanner being bugged" can give you an estimate on how much patience and hope you'll need to have.

[Zirael]

I actually see 1 reason to use bully... Dynamis. We finally have a reliable JA to proc the JA dynamis mobs. If this then allows us to increase TH easier, then great. I've only done 3 dynas since the update, but in all 3, steal has never landed, and I'm always /nin for pulling, so I can't proc on the JA mobs.

(The fact that steal hasn't landed is unsurprising really since I have 0 steal + gear)
Don't get me wrong, I'm not jumping at you, but why /nin? As /dnc you don't lose that much survivability and in return you can help with step/flourish staggers. These days with my friends we go in and split into two teams: THF/DNC+PUP/DNC+RDM/WHM(cure/haste only) and THF/DNC+DNC/SAM. And we're still doing very fine (consistent 80-110 coins per person). To Beaucedine Glacier we even go without the RDM (well, she has access now, but cities are less crowded so we stick there these days). I bet your group brings at least 1 competent mage, so give it a shot.

[Zirael]

I'm 99% positive in order for Steal to proc, It either has to Successfully steal a Coin, Or Actually Absorb a Buff (Dispel wont work, Only Absorbing it from my experience)

But a Missed steal, and by extent, mug, Cannot proc. So both rather useless. So is a JA on a 3 minute timer. Still better off subbing DNC if your goal is JA mobs. >.O.
I've never seen Mug proc (I ride the timer anyway, why not...), as for steal, I -think- it procced yesterday while dispelling Protect. Usualy I just ride the timer, but I might start paying more attention. I get a proc from it like once a week or so. My friend doesn't bother and just spams it on whatever for that extra 0-2 coin per 2 hours.

[Karbuncle]

Yah, Mug Cannot proc, since it technically has 100% miss rate because Dynamis Mobs don't have gil.

Proc'ing on a Dispel and not absorb i couldn't recall, so i went with my gut (since the only time i remember it procing was when i stole a NIN's Utsu). But procing with just dispel is probably likely.

Shame how wonderfully useless Steal is... Even using it every single time the timer is up, I get maybe 1 extra coin a run.

[Zirael]

Yah, Mug Cannot proc, since it technically has 100% miss rate because Dynamis Mobs don't have gil.
[..blabla..]
Shame how wonderfully useless Steal is... Even using it every single time the timer is up, I get maybe 1 extra coin a run.
Wait, wait! Did you just say procs >>> THF abilities and job traits? Blasphemy!
:p

[Nebo]

Wait, wait! Did you just say procs >>> THF abilities and job traits? Blasphemy!
:p

Yeah its pretty awesome actually. They give us more Treasure Hunter updates to try and shut us up, but with each update they make Treasure Hunter less and less useful.

;)

[Babekeke]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not jumping at you, but why /nin? As /dnc you don't lose that much survivability and in return you can help with step/flourish staggers. These days with my friends we go in and split into two teams: THF/DNC+PUP/DNC+RDM/WHM(cure/haste only) and THF/DNC+DNC/SAM. And we're still doing very fine (consistent 80-110 coins per person). To Beaucedine Glacier we even go without the RDM (well, she has access now, but cities are less crowded so we stick there these days). I bet your group brings at least 1 competent mage, so give it a shot.

We go whm nin/war dnc/nin and thf/nin. So far we only did Xarcabard, idk if the towns are any easier, but the demons hit like a truck, and not having utsusemi for EES on rng mobs would be suicide (for a Taru at least).

[Byrth]

I go DNC/NIN + WHM/THF dualbox and pull 120 coins per run not including 100s as long as I can avoid spacing out and wiping. I get a 100-piece about every 2~3 runs, so call it 150 coins per run. 1.5mil per run on my server, also known in some circles as 150 Alexandrite.

[Zirael]

We go whm nin/war dnc/nin and thf/nin. So far we only did Xarcabard, idk if the towns are any easier, but the demons hit like a truck, and not having utsusemi for EES on rng mobs would be suicide (for a Taru at least).
Hmm, makes sense. I find fighting demons a bit impractical due to RNGs and NINs AoE attack. The plus side, TEs are easy as hell to get. Since you mention EES, can I ask you, do you turn your back (put on full EVA equipment) on JA mobs and spam steps and Violent Flourish until proc? If enemies don't get hit, they don't 2-hour, which makes alot difference with MNK and RNG. Not fighting to kill it as soon as possible might sound contrary to killspeed=morecoins, but not triggering Hundred Fists or EES can save you alot MP and TP from Waltzes. Also nin/dnc would help you proc faster.
Not really a secret anymore, so here are some famous camps to try out, if you fancy: Beaucedine Glacier orc camp J7/J8, Bastok behind Auction House, San d'Oria main plaza in front of Auction House, Windurst tunnel just as you enter zone. Only downside is, some TEs in cities require sleepga or sac pull, or pet aggo-pull. Have fun!

[Zirael]

Will have to wait for official translation, but from what my JP friend is telling me, the TH upgrade chance got scrapped and instead you can SA from any direction while Bully is up. A JA useful for alliance play, a JA useful for solo. At least with this I'll make some use of it.

Now, if only SE changed intimidation chance from 0-1 per 30s to something like 0-0.1 and made it a 60s recast ability as a trade-off... :rolleyes:
Any takers?

[Laphine]

they should scrap bully completely lol

[RygaenYuui]

The wonderful thing about even using steal+ gear (I have the entire set of items excluding Bartholomew's knife), is that the skill is still highly unreliable as far as successful item steals are concerned. And i think it is level based; there's no other attribute that really affect the success rate of steal.

[FrankReynolds]

The wonderful thing about even using steal+ gear (I have the entire set of items excluding Bartholomew's knife), is that the skill is still highly unreliable as far as successful item steals are concerned. And i think it is level based; there's no other attribute that really affect the success rate of steal.

I did dynamis for like a year with no steal gear, then got bored and built a set. after 6 months I decided that I had a better chance of losing a coin due to full inventory than I had of stealing an extra coin. So I stored it all. Its that good.

[Arcon]

I did dynamis for like a year with no steal gear, then got bored and built a set. after 6 months I decided that I had a better chance of losing a coin due to full inventory than I had of stealing an extra coin. So I stored it all. Its that good.

/confirm. I still have so many Steal-pieces cluttering up my /sack, and even I don't know why. I didn't use them in a long time (and even if they would help, enemies have nothing worth stealing anymore).

[Nebo]

/confirm. I still have so many Steal-pieces cluttering up my /sack, and even I don't know why. I didn't use them in a long time (and even if they would help, enemies have nothing worth stealing anymore).

I was just thinking that myself, I have all of the +steal pieces in my mog sack...I guess maybe I've been wanting ot /toss it actually but I'm affraid that the moment I do, they'll pull a fast one on me, make steal worth a damn and rabbit charm prices will skyrocket again.

[Nebo]

Will have to wait for official translation, but from what my JP friend is telling me, the TH upgrade chance got scrapped and instead you can SA from any direction while Bully is up. A JA useful for alliance play, a JA useful for solo. At least with this I'll make some use of it.

Now, if only SE changed intimidation chance from 0-1 per 30s to something like 0-0.1 and made it a 60s recast ability as a trade-off... :rolleyes:
Any takers?

Link to that post: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13092-【シーフ】-dev1024-ジョブ調整について?p=189532&viewfull=1#post189532

Very interested to hear this translation.

Even it they did scrap the TH boost, being able to Sneak Attack while tanking more often is a boost to TH enhancing as well.

[Insaniac]

The JP post is pretty hard to understand via google translate but if that is the case it might be the best JA THF has gotten since Trick attack. I'm kinda pumped. I hope it's what it sounds like. I'm already running over the possibilities in my head.

[Nebo]

Effects during "blindsided" is enabled from the enemy behind the other.

Is what I got from google translate...which I'm hoping does not mean that we still have to be behind someone else to land sneak attack....but I am very afraid that this might be what it means :confused:

[SpankWustler]

The weirdness of pronouns and linking verbs and pretty much everything in relation to context within the Japanese language makes it really hard to know anything other than "it makes Sneak Attack work more better". It would be idiotic for the ability to make Sneak Attack into Trick Attack, but hey, when just-retarded-enough-to-sort-glass-for-living is par for the course...

Anyway, I just replied to it by quoting the ability and effectively saying "Thanks for the food!" because I'm fat and that's the only Japanese phrase I actually know the moon-squiggles for. So I hope it's actually good!

[Karbuncle]

Not going to lie, If they change Bully to allow SA to work from anywhere during its effect, the ability just went from "crap" to "wtf awesome".

It will be a complete 180 in my book... I will be truly astounded and happy :X

[Motenten]

I get this from Google:


The effect of the back of the enemy from outside, "surprise" is in effect.

Where "surprise" is Sneak Attack. Using other translation tools, it works out to roughly:

"The effect of Sneak Attack will also work when not behind the enemy."

or possibly, will work *except* for when behind the enemy; not sure on that. I suppose if you're gonna bully someone, they should see the attack coming...

So seems legit.

[FrankReynolds]

This would Friggin great if its true

[Karbuncle]

If its changing it from "Working behind it" to "Working While in sight of it" i like it...

Not only does it open up SA from a solo perspective. It also gives you the ability to SATA from the front on mobs that can't be hidden from.

[Insaniac]

Consider also that the effect will probably apply to anyone fighting the mob. So with 2 THFs you would have a ton of window to do unhindered SATAs and this would also be a great indirect party buff if anyone is ???/THF. Particularly SAM/THFs who will be able to take advantage of SA and overwhelm at the same time.

[Vold]

I'll take SA over TH any day. Though I imagine SA TH proc will not exist when not behind the enemy as a trade off. I see that coming a mile away. You know, because things have to have a trade off.

[Zirael]

Yes, if anyone /thf could take advantage of this (SATA-WS on tanks like in good old Byakko fights), that's a very welcome party buff for THF as well. Would help all those DDs in Voidwatch WSing and getting their heads ripped off immediately after.
Hell, by accident SE might have probably stumbled on one of those promised 'hate management tools' from manifesto with this.

[Laphine]

i'm really not this excited. It's just once every 3min. One in 3 SAs. DNCs can still force crit within 1.5min with pretty much no restriction.

[Vold]

i'm really not this excited. It's just once every 3min. One in 3 SAs. DNCs can still force crit within 1.5min with pretty much no restriction.Be that as it may, THF still has one force crit per minute with TA when tanking. You're looking at 2 DNC crits vs 4 for THF every 3 minutes. This is relevant because THF isn't going to be soloing what DNC does anytime soon. THFs are going to have a partner to TA on.



I've never had a downer attitude about dnc getting a force crit anyway. What I do have a downer attitude with is everything DNC has received in the effort to make it an attractive end game job and not just a fun side job. They haven't used their imagination because they're unwilling to or whatever(giving DNC THF dagger WSs, for example) and the result is a superior dagger job over THF in every way that really matters except it doesn't get TH3+. And in most cases any TH at all with /nin. I'm not saying THF has to be #1 but I don't want it to be a distant second, either. But it is. The only reason to use THF right now is for TH3 that's near useless unless the NM in question has a lot of HP and even then we aren't sure just how well TH12 performs in the grand scheme of things. That's just terrible.

THF will shine as the job it's supposed to be when it's JAs and traits stop sucking i.e. when SE stops with the being overly petrified of balance being in favor of the player. Like steal working more often than never on higher level monsters. Mug nabbing more gil than the time it takes to reuse. TH3 working normally and not a total skip out of the norm just to keep old school drop rates in check and for TH procs to be of some worth. How about hide working on everything. Despoil being removed for the worthless gimmick that it is in favor of something worthwhile and Empyrean gear adjusted to reflect, or at the very least make it relevant instead of not at all.

Point for me is, if the job did what it's supposed to do I might be happy with it. But it doesn't because SE has this idea in their heads that if it did it would wreck chaos on the economy and cause the end of the world or something. So we can't have that. We can't be super nice DPS because we wield daggers. We aren't dancer. We aren't BRD. So what we're left with is the best Treasure Hunter ability which is gimped because SE doesn't want the end of the world to come. So here we are, with our thumbs up our butts wondering if we're ever going to get anything worthwhile out of this extra leveling to 99 besides better gear. SE is so stumped right now with jobs that they're even giving TH away to them in an effort to make them desirable for end game. So I don't expect this situation for THF to improve anytime soon.

[noodles355]

Waiting for Camate to translate before I get my hopes up. Please post soon Camate, I want to get my hopes up.

[Nynja]

Anyone complaining about this change needs to have their balls cut off...because there is NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, bad about it.

1-native claiming JA, not quite 16 distance like voke, but its a native claiming JA
2-ability to SA in the face every 3 minutes. (you can STILL do two SA's in the face with some crafty timing, pop SA, count to 50, hit, SA hit)

[noodles355]

*count to 40.

Just sayin' :p

[Nebo]

Anyone complaining about this change needs to have their balls cut off...because there is NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, bad about it.

1-native claiming JA, not quite 16 distance like voke, but its a native claiming JA
2-ability to SA in the face every 3 minutes. (you can STILL do two SA's in the face with some crafty timing, pop SA, count to 50, hit, SA hit)

I hope you are right....still waiting on that English translation though :(

[Alaik]

Inb4 the SA buff is an additional 1% DEX to dmg ratio or straight +50 dmg to the end damage total (Not weapon damage)

[Karbuncle]

I doubt it'll be bad. The way the translation sounds makes me quite hopeful. It will also give me hope they do in fact listen to us...

Just the thought of being able to drop a SA/WS while tanking, even once every 3 minutes just ... well it makes me happy. very happy. and i truly hope that the translations are correct here.

Still, I find today THF Is actually pretty boss for Voidwatch... They aren't the RUN IN AND FIGHT battles, its fought almost completely as Run in > WS > run out, THF Really shines in those situations because they run in > SA > TA > Run out causing a good deal of damage.

I like how all of this sounds.

[FANCY60]

bully is only worth is when soloing or claiming mobs but do we really need it, i dont think so

[FANCY60]

and after testing in sever i havent changed my mind

[Laphine]

How is it only soloing if the potency is increased with more ppl?

I was never complaining about this change. Any positive change is good anyway. It's simply not "OMG WOOT FINALLY SOME LOVE!". The dps change with this will be minimal. I'd much rather have a higher performance while still locked with positioning restrictions (making sa/ta epeen more) or have 100% performance all the time (making sa/ta always hit).

[Karbuncle]

I'll take being able to SATA a tank up to twice per 3 minutes, and the possibility for SATAWS as well over what it was.

They're giving us an inch here, Lets not ask for the mile, this is a compromise i can work with. This is a far better improvement to this JA than any of us could have hopped for. If it turns out it does allow SA from any direction, it opens up some significant possibilities for spike damage in events like Voidwatch which is basically a giant spike damage fight... (hint: you don't melee).

So ... Lets try not to appear too ungrateful.

[Vold]

How is it only soloing if the potency is increased with more ppl?

I was never complaining about this change. Any positive change is good anyway. It's simply not "OMG WOOT FINALLY SOME LOVE!". The dps change with this will be minimal. I'd much rather have a higher performance while still locked with positioning restrictions (making sa/ta epeen more) or have 100% performance all the time (making sa/ta always hit).I agree but still, THF spike damage is it's bread and butter. It's just a little bit better than a minimal adjustment but sure, in the grand scheme of things it's not really improving group oriented activities. Any group that knows wth they're doing doesn't give their thieves any problems with their SATA business.

It is a huge adjustment for the THF tank, though. Our WS damage suffers greatly when not stacked with SA. For someone like me for example who typically runs to a spot somewhere to farm something and will spend extended periods doing so, this change will make life considerably easier over time. It's not sliced bread 2.0 but with the addition of it it could lead to sliced bread 2.0 eventually and that's far more important than the actual SA adjustment for Bully(assuming true), SE finally giving in to the fact that Bully was extremely lack luster for the THF job. We already have 2 support dagger jobs. Let THF stay the DD of the bunch and not turn it into another support deal.

[Camate]

Morning! Sorry to make you all wait at the edges of your seats for what has been posted about Bully. Hope you all had a good labor day weekend.

Last week we added an effect to Bully that would make it easier to increase the effect of Treasure Hunter.

Based on feedback we received about this, we decided to go a different route and add an effect we felt would make you all a bit happier.

The changes to the effects are described below:


•Bully (THF lvl.93 Recast time: 3 minutes Effect Duration: 30 seconds)
Intimidates target
While under its effect: Possible to use Sneak Attack when not behind an enemy.

[FrankReynolds]

HAH! Thats more like it! Thanks guys :)

[Karbuncle]

Morning! Sorry to make you all wait at the edges of your seats for what has been posted about Bully. Hope you all had a good labor day weekend.

Last week we added an effect to Bully that would make it easier to increase the effect of Treasure Hunter.

Based on feedback we received about this, we decided to go a different route and add an effect we felt would make you all a bit happier.

The changes to the effects are described below:


•Bully (THF lvl.93 Recast time: 3 minutes Effect Duration: 30 seconds)
Intimidates target
While under its effect: Possible to use Sneak Attack when not behind an enemy.

It makes me so happy you're glad I don't know where you live.

Because i would go there and hug you, and never stop, at first it would be nice, then it would get kinda awkward. But I still wouldn't let go.

Edit: Also my weekend was fantastic. I sat at home and did nothing. Just like i planned :D
Edit2: I feel a restraining order coming on.

[Mefuki]

Wow, awesome! Congrats Thf, you finally got something you've been asking for.

[Phen]

I am moved to cry twin waterfalls T_T. I imagine a bunch of people in the different THF AFs hugging each other like the end of a war or something. Its almost like .... the test server is serving a function! :D

though obligatory dont let your guard down for them doing something terrible soon, we dont have luck like this hahahaaaaabloobloobloobloo

[Absolutezero]

Awesome, here's to more rudra's. Might even merit sa now...

[Valisk]

Why does it sound like some people think that Bully is giving us an additional critical attack every 3 minutes? You guys do realize that it allows us to use Sneak Attack from any direction so we are still under that 50 second - 1 minute constraint.. I just see some posts that indicate we get an extra critical every 3 minutes but that's not the case. Just means that every 3rd SA, we don't have to run behind the mob to perform it. A welcomed change nonetheless.

[SpankWustler]

Morning! Sorry to make you all wait at the edges of your seats for what has been posted about Bully. Hope you all had a good labor day weekend.

Last week we added an effect to Bully that would make it easier to increase the effect of Treasure Hunter.

Based on feedback we received about this, we decided to go a different route and add an effect we felt would make you all a bit happier.

The changes to the effects are described below:


•Bully (THF lvl.93 Recast time: 3 minutes Effect Duration: 30 seconds)
Intimidates target
While under its effect: Possible to use Sneak Attack when not behind an enemy.

This is awesome. Here is a picture of a dog in a bumblebee costume as an inscrutable token of my inscrutable thanks. (http://www.insidesocal.com/bargain/DogBeeCostume.jpg)

[Monchat]

so a SA-hide effect even if you have enimity on the target. ok. not too impressing.

[Reaux]

Morning! Sorry to make you all wait at the edges of your seats for what has been posted about Bully. Hope you all had a good labor day weekend.

Last week we added an effect to Bully that would make it easier to increase the effect of Treasure Hunter.

Based on feedback we received about this, we decided to go a different route and add an effect we felt would make you all a bit happier.

The changes to the effects are described below:


•Bully (THF lvl.93 Recast time: 3 minutes Effect Duration: 30 seconds)
Intimidates target
While under its effect: Possible to use Sneak Attack when not behind an enemy.


You're starting to get it, but not quite there yet.

[Riggs]

Why does it sound like some people think that Bully is giving us an additional critical attack every 3 minutes? You guys do realize that it allows us to use Sneak Attack from any direction so we are still under that 50 second - 1 minute constraint.. I just see some posts that indicate we get an extra critical every 3 minutes but that's not the case. Just means that every 3rd SA, we don't have to run behind the mob to perform it. A welcomed change nonetheless.

Most life long thf's spend the vast majority of their time soloing, now we get to use sneak attack while soloing, sweet

[Arcon]

Most life long thf's spend the vast majority of their time soloing, now we get to use sneak attack while soloing, sweet

This .

[Vold]

Why does it sound like some people think that Bully is giving us an additional critical attack every 3 minutes? You guys do realize that it allows us to use Sneak Attack from any direction so we are still under that 50 second - 1 minute constraint.. I just see some posts that indicate we get an extra critical every 3 minutes but that's not the case. Just means that every 3rd SA, we don't have to run behind the mob to perform it. A welcomed change nonetheless.Maybe you need to read more into the posts and do less of the speed reading. From a technical point of view a THF tank(or whatever case that might have hate focused on the THF)is getting an extra forced crit every 3 minutes, and up to 2 if they time it right.

We're not saying it's magically providing another forced crit on top of SATA, we're saying that because we can SA from any direction it's giving us forced crits when before we didn't have the option due to SA requirements.

[Smush]

Morning! Sorry to make you all wait at the edges of your seats for what has been posted about Bully. Hope you all had a good labor day weekend.

Last week we added an effect to Bully that would make it easier to increase the effect of Treasure Hunter.

Based on feedback we received about this, we decided to go a different route and add an effect we felt would make you all a bit happier.

The changes to the effects are described below:


•Bully (THF lvl.93 Recast time: 3 minutes Effect Duration: 30 seconds)
Intimidates target
While under its effect: Possible to use Sneak Attack when not behind an enemy.

Im so excited about this its great. i didn't expect something like this to happen but so glad if you guys go through with it. Thanks a bunch really looking forward to the update now ^^.

[Ophannus]

Why is this so amazing? It's a 30 second duration and 3 min recast which means at best 1 free SA. While soloing this is good, but for HNM this is meh considering it's not too hard to SA behind the mob. Also does this mean they removed the 'easier to proc TH effect" from Bully?

[Smush]

here is just a idea.
but in the future maybe you guys can make conspirator a TA version of this new effect where you dont have to be behind a person just a idea ^^.

[Darkwizardzin]

Why is this so amazing? It's a 30 second duration and 3 min recast which means at best 1 free SA. While soloing this is good, but for HNM this is meh considering it's not too hard to SA behind the mob. Also does this mean they removed the 'easier to proc TH effect" from Bully?

Most likly yea they did remove the "easier to proc" effect from it to replace it with this new effect (not much of a loss anyway.... 90% of the people who posted here about it were screaming hate about it)

imo Im glad to see an update where 70%~ of the thfs are happy with it for a change.

[Insaniac]

In 1 week bully has gone from pure garbage to one of the best JAs THF has. Anyone not happy with this change is just trying to be unhappy.

[FrankReynolds]

In 1 week bully has gone from pure garbage to one of the best JAs THF has. Anyone not happy with this change is just trying to be unhappy.
This makes me very happy. For solo / Duo this is amazing. For groups its also pretty damn good.

[Arcon]

Why is this so amazing? It's a 30 second duration and 3 min recast which means at best 1 free SA. While soloing this is good, but for HNM this is meh considering it's not too hard to SA behind the mob. Also does this mean they removed the 'easier to proc TH effect" from Bully?

HNM like Fafhogg, where you can just go behind the mob and SA, right? Soloing/Duoing is where it's at for most people. So this is great for that. And it's not "at best 1", it's "at least 1, at best 2" free SA.

[Laphine]

In 1 week bully has gone from pure garbage to one of the best JAs THF has. Anyone not happy with this change is just trying to be unhappy.

lol yeah, i'll give you this. I still hope we see more tweeks tho! 1min duration (Yes,please.)!

[Phen]

It also every 3 minutes means you dont have to worry about someone hitting hate back and it spinning(thats pretty common). Also the TH loss is probably to make up for the fact that even solo you can now get the enhanced TH proc rate from SA which is probably as effective as bully was. This is really functional now, also the original intimidate(even minor) on top of that.

[Insaniac]

This makes me very happy. For solo / Duo this is amazing. For groups its also pretty damn good.

I agree 100%. For once a 3 minute timer is actually justified. This JA would be amazing without the intimidation effect and ghetto claim tool aspect. I'm super happy about this. Hopefully this is the first good news in a series. =)

[Valisk]

Maybe you need to read more into the posts and do less of the speed reading. From a technical point of view a THF tank(or whatever case that might have hate focused on the THF)is getting an extra forced crit every 3 minutes, and up to 2 if they time it right.

We're not saying it's magically providing another forced crit on top of SATA, we're saying that because we can SA from any direction it's giving us forced crits when before we didn't have the option due to SA requirements.

Speed reading huh? Maybe you should stop speed posting and think about what you're writing before sending it. First of all, don't say "we're" like you're speaking for everyone because I've seen at least 3 posts speaking of an additional hit or Sneak Attack hidden effect. Secondly, I wasn't talking about those saying we can now SA once every 3 minutes when we otherwise wouldn't be able to. I'm referring to those who are implying that Bully allows us to force critical in addition to SA and TA.

[Insaniac]

lol yeah, i'll give you this. I still hope we see more tweeks tho! 1min duration (Yes,please.)!

I'm sure we will see merits/gear to either increase the duration or lower the recast. Hopefully not intimidation rate! Start taking notes now devs!!

[Nebo]

Speed reading huh? Maybe you should stop speed posting and think about what you're writing before sending it. First of all, don't say "we're" like you're speaking for everyone because I've seen at least 3 posts speaking of an additional hit or Sneak Attack hidden effect. Secondly, I wasn't talking about those saying we can now SA once every 3 minutes when we otherwise wouldn't be able to. I'm referring to those who are implying that Bully allows us to force critical in addition to SA and TA.

Where did anyone say they thought that Bully was a force crit JA?

Edit: Also, I'm pretty stoked about this change. AS for the TH enhancement effect being removed, being able to Sneak Attack (for increased chance when solo) more often is just as good (if not better).

Edit 2: The question also remains: will ANYONE one hate be able to land SA from any angle under Bully effect (as its an effect placed upon the mob) or will it just be the THF that gave the effect?

hmmm.

[Tiberius]

I am quite pleased with the change for Bully. I thought it was going to be a crap ability (and it was), but this is pretty good, even if it is only every 3 minutes. Maybe this could be added to Merits someday to further increase usefulness.

[Nynja]

Edit 2: The question also remains: will ANYONE one hate be able to land SA from any angle under Bully effect (as its an effect placed upon the mob) or will it just be the THF that gave the effect?


Should be easy enough for anyone on the test server to try it out.

[Alaik]

so a SA-hide effect even if you have enimity on the target. ok. not too impressing.


You don't get it. It's an actual buff, even if it's minor. Do you realize how LONG that's been?

We get worthless shit or nerfs. This is our first good buff in a very long time. So of course we're happy.

[Volkai]

Morning! Sorry to make you all wait at the edges of your seats for what has been posted about Bully. Hope you all had a good labor day weekend.

Last week we added an effect to Bully that would make it easier to increase the effect of Treasure Hunter.

Based on feedback we received about this, we decided to go a different route and add an effect we felt would make you all a bit happier.

The changes to the effects are described below:


•Bully (THF lvl.93 Recast time: 3 minutes Effect Duration: 30 seconds)
Intimidates target
While under its effect: Possible to use Sneak Attack when not behind an enemy.

My THIEF ("Guess what? You got it for free. Are you proud of yourself?") is only in the mid 40s, but is very, very happy to see this. Now it might be possible to use Sneak Attack while soloing without relying on Sleep Bolts!

[Quetzacoatl]

Why is this so amazing? It's a 30 second duration and 3 min recast which means at best 1 free SA.

Forced Crit on Rudra's Storm while THF Tanking says hello.

[SpankWustler]

When I think about how the category III or whatnot merits will generally work, this sort of thing goes through my head:


I'm sure we will see merits/gear to either increase the duration or lower the recast. Hopefully not intimidation rate!


Hopefully not intimidation rate!


intimidation rate!

[Kari]

Part of me is glad THF got SOMETHING even RELATIVELY useful.
The other part of me is ugh because of the recast.

Either way, I'd really like to see THF get something good enough to make me want to go THF to an event.
When I do go THF, it's for TH usually.
Otherwise, SE isn't giving THF anything to make me want to stray from DNC more than I have to.

[Babygyrl]

Morning! Sorry to make you all wait at the edges of your seats for what has been posted about Bully. Hope you all had a good labor day weekend.

Last week we added an effect to Bully that would make it easier to increase the effect of Treasure Hunter.

Based on feedback we received about this, we decided to go a different route and add an effect we felt would make you all a bit happier.

The changes to the effects are described below:


•Bully (THF lvl.93 Recast time: 3 minutes Effect Duration: 30 seconds)
Intimidates target
While under its effect: Possible to use Sneak Attack when not behind an enemy.


Loveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee this :D!!!!!!

[Nynja]

The other part of me is ugh because of the recast.

Its 3 bloody minutes....

[Ezekieal]

Finally something useful :D

For too long Thief has been getting poor updates, seems like the devs are finally beginning to understand how people play Thief now.

Happy days!

[Tashan]

Congrats THF :D

[Longshot]

I don't mind the recast at all. 2 Min would be pretty powerful, every other SA being able to land even while solo. Anything less than that and you could just make SA itself not require being behind the enemy. I am pretty happy with 3 min.

I wouldn't be against sweetening the pot a bit, maybe something like while bully is in effect THF's critical attack bonus gets a boost or even critical hit rate?

[Insaniac]

I could think of a lot of things I would add to it but I don't think we should push our luck lol. Now that bully isn't garbage we should go back to complaining about the JAs that still are!

[Reaux]

I am happy they listened to us on this one finally. It took a lot of QQing and screaming to get it but finally we got something far more useful than we what was originally intended, especially after the initial change to extra TH proc they wanted to give us. This now makes it more useful for solo/small groups as well as party play.

The 3 min recast still feels a little long for only a 30 sec duration, otherwise the ability to intimidate and SA from any able is pretty nice. I wonder if we will get gear that increases the duration/effect or recast of it?

[FrankReynolds]

I am happy they listened to us on this one finally. It took a lot of QQing and screaming to get it but finally we got something far more useful than we what was originally intended, especially after the initial change to extra TH proc they wanted to give us. This now makes it more useful for solo/small groups as well as party play.

The 3 min recast still feels a little long for only a 30 sec duration, otherwise the ability to intimidate and SA from any able is pretty nice. I wonder if we will get gear that increases the duration/effect or recast of it?

I'm happy as hell too, but honestly I wouldn't care if it was 10 second duration if they lowered the recast (prays for merits).

[noodles355]

I'd be pretty happy with 1/3 SAs being from any angle. That is a very significant boost to your damage. I'd even go as far as saying being able to make it 2min so you could do every other SA would actually be a bit overpowered and undermine the whole point of Sneak Attack. A 3rd of your SAs dont have to be from behind. That is powerful.

[Babekeke]

This is awesome, but the pessimist in me can't help but think that too many people are loving this, so it's bound to be nerfed. 10 min recast sounds about what SE feel we actually deserve.

I think while soloing NMs, I'll be turning my back for 30 secs every 3 mins to make sure I get 2 SAs in to boost up the TH (because I can). Then there's always hide for every other non-bully'd SA if fighting a sight only NM XD 5/6 SAs when soloing /drool^^

[Arcon]

I'd be pretty happy with 1/3 SAs being from any angle. That is a very significant boost to your damage. I'd even go as far as saying being able to make it 2min so you could do every other SA would actually be a bit overpowered and undermine the whole point of Sneak Attack. A 3rd of your SAs dont have to be from behind. That is powerful.

Can be up to 66% of your SAs even, even with constantly SAing, depending on the situation. Although harder to do when soloing, that is true.

Edit:

This is awesome, but the pessimist in me can't help but think that too many people are loving this, so it's bound to be nerfed. 10 min recast sounds about what SE feel we actually deserve.

It's kinda funny, but the reason so many people like it is not because it is actually an amazing ability, but because our standards have been so low for such a long time that we take anything we can get and are happy about it.

[Karbuncle]

I dunno Babek, Something tells me they'll do Bully right this time, and keep it at 3 minute timer/30sec Duration. On a side note, anyone wanna brainstorm our level 99 Merit choices?

Conspirator Effect - Increases Accuracy by 2, and Subtle Blow by 2 (useless)
Despoil Effect Duration - Increases Despoil debuff duration by 3 seconds (useless)
Bully - Increases Intimidation rate by 2 (Useless)

Thats the pessimist in me. The positive in me hopes for

Tier 1
Conspirator Duration: Increases Duration by 10s
Bully Recast: Reduces Recast by 5s
Collaborator Recast: - Reduces Recast by 3s
Accomplice Recast - Reduces Recast by 15s
Quadruple Attack - Increases Quadruple Attack by 1

Tier 2
Stealth(JT) - Increases Sneak Attack potency by 2% per level, and adds a 3% Attack boost per level.
Framework(JT) -Increases Trick Attack potency by 2% per level, and adds a 3% Attack Boost per level.
Plunder(JT) - Adds a Stun Effect to Mug. Additional Merits reduce Recast by 2:30
Full Assault(JA) - Next Weaponskill gain the ability to ignore defense.* Additional Merits increase amount ignored by 5%.

*Full assault: Recast 5min - Amount ignored base = 30%. Capped merits = 50%

[FrankReynolds]

I dunno Babek, Something tells me they'll do Bully right this time, and keep it at 3 minute timer/30sec Duration. On a side note, anyone wanna brainstorm our level 99 Merit choices?

Conspirator Effect - Increases Accuracy by 2, and Subtle Blow by 2 (useless)
Despoil Effect Duration - Increases Despoil debuff duration by 3 seconds (useless)
Bully - Increases Intimidation rate by 2 (Useless)

Thats the pessimist in me. The positive in me hopes for

Tier 1
Conspirator Duration: Increases Duration by 10s
Bully Recast: Reduces Recast by 5s
Collaborator Recast: - Reduces Recast by 3s
Accomplice Recast - Reduces Recast by 15s
Quadruple Attack - Increases Quadruple Attack by 1

Tier 2
Stealth(JT) - Increases Sneak Attack potency by 2% per level, and adds a 3% Attack boost per level.
Framework(JT) -Increases Trick Attack potency by 2% per level, and adds a 3% Attack Boost per level.
Plunder(JT) - Adds a Stun Effect to Mug. Additional Merits reduce Recast by 2:30
Full Assault(JA) - Next Weaponskill gain the ability to ignore defense.* Additional Merits increase amount ignored by 5%.

*Full assault: Recast 5min - Amount ignored base = 30%. Capped merits = 50%

I like the positive merits better. Approved.

[Nebo]

I guess this is our answer as to whether or not they are ever going to add a trait or change Sneak Attack to line of sight instead of directly behind.

[noodles355]

for general damage purposes I definitely wouldn't turn for 30secs to get 2 SAs off, but for TH upgrades that is pretty awesome when tankking.

[Xellith]

You should just let us use sneak attack from any angle.

[Laphine]

Some reasons i think this is a kinda lousy dps increase:

-First, SA/TA contribution to our damage is very low inside abyssea. We can use this JA at best at 66% of SAs (1 precharge + 2). This is only on the start of a big fight or after long waits. 33% performance is more of a rule. So, what's already a small boost gets even smaller.

-If we are not inside abyssea, then we are probably not tanking, which means we can use sa/ta anyways (well, truth be told, we can sa/ta inside or outside, tanking or not, so long there are other melees).

-Outside abyssea sa/ta is meaningful. This JA even at 66% performance is very nice, and it's a great epeen tool to start a fight(if the mob lives the first saws round that is). I don't see many situations where we want to kill as fast as possible anymore tho. We want procs and procs and procs, be it TH or !!. A single SARudra can remove 50% HP or more of a VT demon on neo dyna, this can be bad if we still don't have a !! up.

Anyways, a positive boost is positive, and this sure is groundbreaking for us.

[Karbuncle]

One of the better things i can think of with Voidwatch, Is this also opens up the possibility to SATA a tank. SATA > Rudra's every 3 minutes or so...

That, and if its a Debuff on the Enemy... SAM/THF SA > WS with Overwhelm bonus in Voidwatch. Sexy. It has party oriented buffs too.

[SpankWustler]

On a side note, anyone wanna brainstorm our level 99 Merit choices?

Conspirator Recast - Lowers the recast of Conspirator by 10 seconds.
Despoil Potency - Increases the potency of Despoil effects by 2.
Bully Potency - Increases the intimidation effect of Bully by 2.
Treasure Hunter Increase Rate - Increases the frequency at which Treasure Hunter increases by 1%.
Resist Gravity Potency- You thought it couldn't get any worse, but we made it worse just for you.

[Karbuncle]

Conspirator Recast - Lowers the recast of Conspirator by 10 seconds.
Despoil Potency - Increases the potency of Despoil effects by 2.
Bully Potency - Increases the intimidation effect of Bully by 2.
Treasure Hunter Increase Rate - Increases the frequency at which Treasure Hunter increases by 1%.
Resist Gravity Potency- You thought it couldn't get any worse, but we made it worse just for you.

My original "negative" idea had Despoil Potency.

You know, its sad as we joke, These fake merits are probably the shit we'll get.

[Mirage]

One of the better things i can think of with Voidwatch, Is this also opens up the possibility to SATA a tank. SATA > Rudra's every 3 minutes or so...

That, and if its a Debuff on the Enemy... SAM/THF SA > WS with Overwhelm bonus in Voidwatch. Sexy. It has party oriented buffs too.

If it is a debuff on the enemy and works like that, it also means a different thief's bully could let for example a thief that tanks to perform yet another SA WS right in someones face, or for two thieves to SATA a tank two times each per 3 minutes, 4 if well timed. That's a potential 8 SATAs on a tank in 3 minutes, with just two thieves!

Now if hate just didn't cap so easily...

-edit-
Re-reading Camate's description of it though, it looks like it is a self-buff, rather than a mob debuff. I hope it ends up being a mob debuff, that would benefit thieves, and other players, a lot more.

-edit, again-
Actually I hope the name is changed. The effect seems good now, but I never really thought the name was a good choice. I'm not a native english speaker so I'll let someone else come up with a cool sounding and fancy name. Damned be my limited vocabulary.

[FANCY60]

i think its a start worth having anyhow. thanks SE for once

[Babekeke]

Conspirator Recast - Lowers the recast of Conspirator by 10 seconds.
Despoil Potency - Increases the potency of Despoil effects by 2.
Bully Potency - Increases the intimidation effect of Bully by 2.
Treasure Hunter Increase Rate - Increases the frequency at which Treasure Hunter increases by 1%.
Resist Gravity Potency- You thought it couldn't get any worse, but we made it worse just for you.

And when the Devs skim through the posts looking for ideas for our merits, they just see these and then the sacrasm is lost in translation...

"And people kept quoting them, so they must have liked them!"

:D

[Mirage]

I'd like to merit steal down to 2 minutes, then aura steal would be somewhat useful!

On a more serious note, I'd also like to be able to merit down accomplice and collaborator, to like idk, 2 minutes for accomplice, 30 seconds for collaborator? It is a really nice "SAVE THE MAGE" button when I'm duoing with like a blm or something, and it would be nice if it was usable more often.

[Alpheus]

Given the new effect it's been given i think a more suited name for it would be Bravado.

bra·va·do/brəˈvädō/
Noun: A bold manner or a show of boldness intended to impress or intimidate.

Since it's quite a bold display to be able to SA a mob in it's face

[Laphine]

the japanese name translates to deceive on google. I suppose that's fitting..

[Alpheus]

the japanese name translates to deceive on google. I suppose that's fitting..

^
or that lol

[Shiyo]

Morning! Sorry to make you all wait at the edges of your seats for what has been posted about Bully. Hope you all had a good labor day weekend.

Last week we added an effect to Bully that would make it easier to increase the effect of Treasure Hunter.

Based on feedback we received about this, we decided to go a different route and add an effect we felt would make you all a bit happier.

The changes to the effects are described below:


•Bully (THF lvl.93 Recast time: 3 minutes Effect Duration: 30 seconds)
Intimidates target
While under its effect: Possible to use Sneak Attack when not behind an enemy.
This ability is really nice and actually useful, TY! Love the change.

It still needs some minor tweaking though imo, a 30 second duration and 3 minute cooldown is far too long for something like that.

[noodles355]

It's at worst 1/3 of your Sneak Attacks. That's not far too long a cooldown. Seriously, some people wont be happy until they make SA and TA just force critical with their DEX and AGI boosts from any position will they?

[Nebo]

I would be pretty happy if they modified Trick Attack to work from anywhere (not behind another person) via bully or some other method and added a trait

...or reversed the nerf that restricted the angle on Sneak Attack to "Directly Behind."

I mean, why can't I "Sneak Attack" a monster if he is not looking at me and focusing on someone else (or if I'm behind a party member and the monster can't see me)?

[Nynja]

seriously...shut up. Bully is useful now, leave it at that instead of asking for more, which YOU KNOW SE will perceive as "they dont like this either, k lets change it to something else".

just, shut up. In fact, lock the thread OP if you can.

[Laphine]

well considering up until now they were able to progressively increase the utility on bully, i wouldn't cry if they dumped this new concept completely to give us something even better.

[Nebo]

seriously...shut up. Bully is useful now, leave it at that instead of asking for more, which YOU KNOW SE will perceive as "they dont like this either, k lets change it to something else".

just, shut up. In fact, lock the thread OP if you can.

lol. I don't think you have anything to worry about. The vast majority og THFs have had nothing but positive things to say about this latest change.

...now if only they'd update the test server so I can try it out....

[noodles355]

lol. I don't think you have anything to worry about. The vast majority og THFs have had nothing but positive things to say about this latest change.Yeah, it's only the retards who don't realise that 1/3 of your sneak attacks is a big deal. Problem is SE seems to listen to retards more than good players. This can be seen through rdm melee.

[Nynja]

"waahhhh this new change is still garbage, its only for 30 seconds on a 3 minute recast...THREE MINUTES is waaaay too long wtf"...
seriously

[Insaniac]

I would totally lock it if I could =P

[Babekeke]

Yeah they removed the ability for OPs to lock their threads about 2 months ago.

I figure that the people who are complaining that 1 in 3 is still not enough, are 'pink' and would never dream of tanking or soloing anything (other than farming). Unfortunately now that anyone with a half decent LS can get 5/5 +2, there are idiots running around in the best gear now too, not just in pink. This makes them harder to spot.

[Karbuncle]

I agree Babeke.

I know i happen to have far better gear than probably half the THF's posting here, Up to and including Mandau shortly, I've actually heard of Macros and use them vastly, and i happen to think this adjustment is absolutely brilliant, You know why?

Just like Nynja more or less said, Sure, Its only 1 in 3, But what was it before? Oh right, 0 in 3. My bad. I can see how this is such a terrible improvement. Maybe we should go back to 0 in 3, that'd work. Lets give Bully its TH upgrade back since this SA thing is soooo terrible

What else can they realistically ask for? Even if its 1/3 (At best 2/3) its still 100/200% Better than what we could do before,and while it will not fix THF overnight/alone, Its a magnificent boost and one of the best Update's to DD THF has gotten since Assassin (and arguably, Feint).

Again, It won't fix THF overnight, But this is a Fix we've been asking for, in fact "A JA or JT That allows you to SA from any direction" has been asked for for a very long time here, Its in my Master Compilation thread even, and now it can be checked off.

Frankly, half of the people asking for that JA Expected SA to not get any DEX boost as a nerf to it, we just got a completely unimpeded Frontal SA 1/3 or 2/3rds of the time depending on the situation.

this ability and realize it went from completely shit to amazingly useful practically overnight, and we can stop asking for shit for it now. Now we play the waiting game for level 99.

They've given us our Inch in the DD department, Ask for the mile at level 99 and beyond. Just because we hit 99 doesn't mean job adjustments will stop coming (We got a lot at level 75)

[Corvin]

I never understood the problem with THF if u were good at the job, Thief is one of the few DD's i see doing more that 2k on VWNMS someone explain to me please.

[Karbuncle]

Big number syndrome and/or other DD's are terrible.

[Nebo]

I never understood the problem with THF if u were good at the job, Thief is one of the few DD's i see doing more that 2k on VWNMS someone explain to me please.

THF has a fundamental lack of attack/accuracy for HNM, so we start weaker to begin with.

It's mostly that we have to rely on Sneak and Trick Attack to see those kind of decent numbers from WS. All of our HNM WS are garbage unstacked.

SA/TA present a certain set of restrictions:

The recast timers are a pretty big bottleneck for damage, especially when you start adding haste into the picture.

Due to the positional requirements/running around and dynamic battles (more of an issue in casual play, big group events, exp than HNM etc) even the best of us will not be able to land them or make use of them 100% of the time as timer's allow.

This is less of a positional issue for larger VWNM which are actually "tanked" so it is easier to move around. But Treasure Hunter is pretty useless there, and it's all about staggers. So balls to the wall damage is not really the point any more.

The WS disadvatange is that most other DD's do not have timers to wait on or positional requirements to fulfil in order for their WS to not suck. Then things like low native ACC/ATT, no subtle blow etc.

But THF was never meant to be on that level. A good THF is something to behold. There aren't many, so when you see one do something you haven't seen other THFs do...its like "What are these guys TALKING about? THF is AMAZING."

But this is really just a product of an amazing player...not that THF is an amazing DD job. That amazing player would do crazy amazing damage on a better DD job. But no one plays THF JUST because they wanted to be a DD. There's more draw to it than that.

The problem, I find, is that the gap right now is very large. As easy as it is for every DD to cap gear haste and stack more from other sources, the damage boost from SA and TA is far too low to stay competetive (if they even connect or it is possible to make use of them).

Like it or not THF IS a DD, part of its utility is tied to the damage it does. If our damage is too lacking, so is our utility....


Specializing in covert actions, Thieves (THF) aim for the perfect opportunity to attack the enemy

One of the key issues is right here. The last time THF learned a "perfect opportunity to attack" type ability was level 30. These abilites were designed around group dynamics that no longer exist.

People seem to forget that THF used to be an AMAZING DD in exp parties (one of the best, actually). Closing a monsterous SATA VB distortion skillchain for mages to magic burst was one of the best things around.

The damage payoff for making SATA lines and catering to THF's positional playstyle was quite large.

Fast forward to present day: No one makes skill chains on purpose and even our weaponskills combined with sneak attack and trick attack don't measure up to other DD's regular WS's.

The damage payoff is no longer worth catering to THF's positional playstyle of DD....so groups don't do it anymore.

And yet, SE still won't let go of this "THF MUST be useless without a group" mentality.

[noodles355]

Stop underselling this as "only pinks like it" because its ignorant,Uh, Babekeke said that only pinks were complaining about it, pretty much the complete opposite. Read it again:

I figure that the people who are complaining that 1 in 3 is still not enough, are 'pink' and would never dream of tanking or soloing anything (other than farming). Unfortunately now that anyone with a half decent LS can get 5/5 +2, there are idiots running around in the best gear now too, not just in pink. This makes them harder to spot.

[TybudX]

Holy hell, how did I miss this thread? Yay us! I'm not usually one to get involved with the white knight side of these things, but holy crap does even a small buff to THF feel good. And to think there's people who think 5% DA isn't good enough!


THF merit stuff

Personally, I would be happy if they reworked Hide so that it worked on NM/HNM quality mobs, and then had recast- merits for it at 99. It would give THF another tool to SA in a group setting, possibly combined with TA. Better than that, it would actually allow THF to dump aggro in a group setting, making Collaborator much less useless than it currently is. Something simple but effective. Say, 5 merits to get it down to 2:30. It's more synergistic with how SE seems to want THF to function.

I'm sure there's something obvious I'm missing some obvious function in my sleep deprived state, but considering what Bully just became I don't think doing what I stated above is out of the question.

[Karbuncle]

Uh, Babekeke said that only pinks were complaining about it, pretty much the complete opposite. Read it again:

Lies!

Lies and Slander.

Edited to reflect.

[Babekeke]

Lies!

Lies and Slander.

Edited to reflect.

I was just replying to your top thread when I noticed that you must have edited it since I went to the page... no longer telling me to hold my tongue ;p

For the record, you weren't on the list of people I was referring to :D

[Insaniac]

Played with Bully 3.0 on the test server. It works as promised. No hidden "does not stack with WS" or "dex bonus is halved" clauses. The effect is still a mob debuff so I'm gonna assume for now that anyone will be able to SA from anywhere as long as the effect is up. The only downside is that in at least 10 uses of the JA solo I did not get a single intimidate on EP mobs. I'm not gonna complain though. The intimidate is now the sideshow and SA from anywhere is the main attraction.