MNK/WAR tank I'm confused Please Assist

[Kajikuro]

Ok ive been seeing this whole new way of mnk tanking that i don't fully understand and apparently some people swear by it. MNK/WAR tanking, i don't get it, when i tank on mnk i /nin for the shadows so i don't catch some of the tp moves and stuff like water V and the like. So i don't understand the reason that mnks are using /war to tank now, i can understand on shadow munchers like turul, though i have never fought turul, but other than that shouldnt /nin still be a must? I understand the defense boast as well from /war but i cant see how that gives enough to make it a viable tanking subjob were you could just as easier sub dnc and violent flourish dangerous attacks. to cut things short im not saying that /war doesn't make sense, im just saying that it doesn't make sense to me. So if anyone could tell me the reason for it and some strategies of how to use it i would appreciate it cuz it will defiantly save me some gil

[hiko]

because counterstancing mnk/war deal lot more dmg than mnk/nin and whm can keep him alive
for spells just swap gear in mdt

[Monchat]

mnk/war is for damage dealing, mnk/nin is for tanking. If someone tells you he is tanking as mnk/war he is probably just subbing war for damage and doing it in abyssea, because he doesnt care about the damage he takes ( abyssea, cure V , cure VI, infinite MP etc). Counterstance doesnt block WS, range attacks and magic.

[Gokku]

as explained in / out side abyssea as long as what your tanking cant 1 shot you , or has stun lock monk/war destroys shit.

[Cursed]

mnk/war is for damage dealing, mnk/nin is for tanking. If someone tells you he is tanking as mnk/war he is probably just subbing war for damage and doing it in abyssea, because he doesnt care about the damage he takes ( abyssea, cure V , cure VI, infinite MP etc). Counterstance doesnt block WS, range attacks and magic.


not all true. but nvm.

[Gokku]

not all true. but nvm.
what part of thats not true? if you say /war for club procs your better off /sam

[Cair]

Nothing is going to one-shot you in Abyssea as a Monk that a different sub job would save you from. MNK/WAR is one of the best tanks (as one as well of the best damage dealers) in Abyssea simply because of how easy everything is. If you have a White Mage, there's no need to sub Ninja, especially considering procs (don't know why SAM was suggested at all, the Attack boost from Berserk is more beneficial).

NIN is a good sub for DD tanking in things like Voidwatch where you don't have unlimited MP to keep HP capped with constant cureskin.

[Gokku]

few things , Emp de altepa , cuji , hedged all are more then able to 1 shot any monk and are suicide to try and duo without /nin though emp / cuji you shouldnt be on monk period for.

[Karbuncle]

/WAR is better for tanking inside Abyssea, as well as general DD purposes. because as explained, Nothing's really going to one shot you there, and with a good WHM Support, You'll rarely ever die. You'll get enough Damage mitigation from Physical hits by countering most everything. So long as you have a MDT set you're golden.

/NIN for outside content of course. Tanking that is.

[Cursed]

what part of thats not true? if you say /war for club procs your better off /sam

The part about needing /nin to tank. I haven't subbed NIN as MNK in over a year. Even before Lv.80, we were rapidly drifting away from /nin.

There's a lot more in Monchat's post that is oversimplified or inaccurate/misleading.
I just don't care to start a wall of text post again.

[Gokku]

Gonna break it down

mnk/war is for damage dealing, mnk/nin is for tanking. * this is true if you /nin to dd your doing it wrong in or outside abyssea*

If someone tells you he is tanking as mnk/war he is probably just subbing war for damage and doing it in abyssea, because he doesnt care about the damage he takes ( abyssea, cure V , cure VI, infinite MP etc). * Also true 99% of whms do not have the 7 a tick auto refresh gear or even 5+, most are full timing af3+2 IF that. meaning they will run out of mp in any situation that's not old content outside of abyssea.

Counterstance doesnt block WS, range attacks and magic. 100% correct

and to clear it up if you tanking /war your not "tanking" your holding hate through superior dps , you'd take a hellva lot less dmg and counter just as much /nin "tanking" the same mob but your kill speed/dmg would be alot less. thats like saying war/sam is for dding not tanking , its both because /sam your dps is so high you are tank by default.

[Karbuncle]

Not sure what that last part is for, but if its implying a use for shadows, Shadows dont block all Damage or Magic either. -ga spells and AoE/Magical TP moves. So add that in too!

but for the most part everything else is correct.

[Cursed]

Gonna break it down

mnk/war is for damage dealing, mnk/nin is for tanking. * this is true if you /nin to dd your doing it wrong in or outside abyssea*

If someone tells you he is tanking as mnk/war he is probably just subbing war for damage and doing it in abyssea, because he doesnt care about the damage he takes ( abyssea, cure V , cure VI, infinite MP etc). * Also true 99% of whms do not have the 7 a tick auto refresh gear or even 5+, most are full timing af3+2 IF that. meaning they will run out of mp in any situation that's not old content outside of abyssea.

Counterstance doesnt block WS, range attacks and magic. 100% correct

and to clear it up if you tanking /war your not "tanking" your holding hate through superior dps , you'd take a hellva lot less dmg and counter just as much /nin "tanking" the same mob but your kill speed/dmg would be alot less. thats like saying war/sam is for dding not tanking , its both because /sam your dps is so high you are tank by default.

are you serious in this post?
I can't tell

[Karbuncle]

ITT: You're not tanking unless you're /nin.

[Gokku]

seeing how i more then likely spend more time tanking then any of you on monk yea im serious /war is fine for many situations but in any situation when you need to tank seriously /war will get your shit kicked in

you go monk/war and tank any WoE boss or any Void-watch and you will get fucked up.

to clear it up /nin isnt the ONLY way to tank , but when your mage no longer has atmas 2000mp and 20 a tick auto refresh , its for damn sure the safest.

[Lynchilles]

mnk/war is for damage dealing, mnk/nin is for tanking. If someone tells you he is tanking as mnk/war he is probably just subbing war for damage and doing it in abyssea, because he doesnt care about the damage he takes ( abyssea, cure V , cure VI, infinite MP etc). Counterstance doesnt block WS, range attacks and magic.

Seriously: you have no idea what you are talking about. Please stop posting on the monk forums. Go find another forum.

[Cursed]

I refuse to fall for this XD.
There's no way this is real lol.
not being trolled.

[Cursed]

and to clear it up if you tanking /war your not "tanking" your holding hate through superior dps , you'd take a hellva lot less dmg and counter just as much /nin "tanking" the same mob but your kill speed/dmg would be alot less. thats like saying war/sam is for dding not tanking , its both because /sam your dps is so high you are tank by default.

im not going to argue with you about what you think tanking is, and what tanking actually is. I'm just going to point out that you can't counter with shadow/utsusemi up. Someone who spends a lot of time tanking on MNK SHOULD know that.

This alone, is my response to this thread... if people really have no clue about MNK/WAR tanking, just find a decent MNK on your server and ask him for advice. these threads are too populated with newbies to get decent advice.

[Gokku]

I refuse to fall for this XD.
There's no way this is real lol.
not being trolled.

at least post your thoughts on it, if thats all your have to say your post is a waste of time. you seem to have this mystical way of playing monk id love to hear. please let me know how you tank the following mobs /war : Ushumgal ,Cottus , Sarimanok ,Krabimanjaro , Pancimanci , lorbulcrud ,ogbanabli .. i can keep going but ill settle for a guide on how to tank those /war first

[Cursed]

at least post your thoughts on it, if thats all your have to say your post is a waste of time. you seem to have this mystical way of playing monk id love to hear. please let me know how you tank the following mobs /war : Ushumgal ,Cottus , Sarimanok ,Krabimanjaro , Pancimanci , lorbulcrud ,ogbanabli .. i can keep going but ill settle for a guide on how to tank those /war first

-put brds and refreshII with your whms.
-7mp/tick refresh isn't hard to get. your whms shouldn't be running out of mp with ballads2/3 and refreshII, a decent idle refresh set.
- Get your whms cure potency.
- Get a stun rotation.
- Get your MNKs PDT sets.
- Get a flash rotation

Notice: VW is not all there is outside Abyssea. But with regards to VW, its just better to have a PLD/WAR tank. A lot less stress than a /nin tank.

[Gokku]

im not going to argue with you about what you think tanking is, and what tanking actually is. I'm just going to point out that you can't counter with shadow/utsusemi up. Someone who spends a lot of time tanking on MNK SHOULD know that.

This alone, is my response to this thread... if people really have no clue about MNK/WAR tanking, just find a decent MNK on your server and ask him for advice. these threads are too populated with newbies to get decent advice.

i know damn well what counter does , i also know that there is content out side of abyssea. content were your acc and counter rate are no longer capped , and even content were OMG your acc isnt capped learn to do some content out side of abyssea ive tanked all T1-3 void watch NM's on monk and i promise you there is no way in hell you can do it on /war. they have the abillity to hit to hard to fast and to accurate for your counterstance alone to be enough to save you.

void watch is the only 90+ content outside of abyssea atm that and WoE *another event /war will get you trucked on with monk* and with enough cures any job can tank a mob , THROW MORE CURES isnt always an option.

[Cursed]

THROW MORE CURES isnt always an option.

you say that and yet you're using MNKs for tanking VW NMs....

[Gokku]

you say that and yet you're using MNKs for tanking VW NMs....
i /nin and only require 1 whm , no rdm needed and a brd is a bonus at the most. youve posting with 0 experience about what you claim is correct, im not im posting from the stand point of someone who has

[Karbuncle]

i /nin and only require 1 whm , no rdm needed and a brd is a bonus at the most. youve posting with 0 experience about what you claim is correct, im not im posting from the stand point of someone who has

If we're assuming all Voidwatch? I'd very much like to see you tank Hahava and Voidwrought on MNK with only 1 WHM as your support.

[Cursed]

i /nin and only require 1 whm , no rdm needed and a brd is a bonus at the most. youve posting with 0 experience about what you claim is correct, im not im posting from the stand point of someone who has

I'm not the one wondering why the heck my character won't counter with 3 shadows up.
Gokku>>come at me bro.
Gokku uses perfect counter
1 of Gokku's shadows absorb the attack
Gokku>> wtf i used Perfect counter.

[Gokku]

I'm not the one wondering why the heck my character won't counter with 3 shadows up.
Gokku>>come at me bro.
Gokku uses perfect counter
1 of Gokku's shadows absorb the attack
Gokku>> wtf i used Perfect counter.
Caste ni
wait for 3 shadows
pop pefrect counter
caste ichi
repeat as nessicary OR
pop perfect on the last shadow of ni and regardless of if the mob strips the shadow manually drop it when ichi is 1/2 way cast.

learn to tank on monk

[Gokku]

If we're assuming all Voidwatch? I'd very much like to see you tank Hahava and Voidwrought on MNK with only 1 WHM as your support.

both mobs dont use normal attacks /war /nin would take the same amount of physical damage hence why i said 1-3 (not 4 im not suicidal)

[Cursed]

Caste ni
wait for 3 shadows
pop pefrect counter
caste ichi
repeat as nessicary OR
pop perfect on the last shadow of ni and regardless of if the mob strips the shadow manually drop it when ichi is 1/2 way cast.

learn to tank on monk

thanks for the game breaking advice.

[Gokku]

thanks for the game breaking advice.
also you can invest in a evasion set ride ichi / perfect and save ni for oh shit moments and for after WS's

[Cursed]

:) thanks. i'll do that.

[Gokku]

back on topic for OP , tanking /war works fine in almost all the situations you will encounter. the general *and this is very simplistic* idea of it is to hit the mob harder then its hitting you and to kill it before it kills you with no regard to the amount of damage your taking. this is easily achieved inside abysses by any half competent whm. there is also the addition of /war allowing you to tank in abyssea and providing monk with, i believe only 1, additional club ws to proc with. this does come @ a loss of the chance to proc grello with ninja tools if your fighting a mob were grello is needed. but then you can just yell at the thf and blame it on them.

#1 reason i sub war, inventory space and not carrying around elemental NI tools.

[SpankWustler]

but then you can just yell at the thf and blame it on them.

You're selling this strategy short. It actually works on anything related to drops.

To say what fifty people have already said, but in a less intelligent and less informative fashion:

Damage taken is irrelevant in most of Abyssea, assuming a White Mage who has a functional brain is present. If the White Mage present has 80/20 coarsely ground beef in the shape of a brain, you may run into issues. Damage taken might become an issue against stuff that hits really, really hard and rips Counterstance off like Rani or Raja. Even then, it depends on your level of support.

Don't worry about enmity loss due to being hit, your enmity gain from punching the monster in it's big, stupid face will outweigh that.

Outside of Abyssea, it depends on the monster and your level of support. Warrior sub works fine for lots of stuff, but there's also lots of stuff that will murder you and everyone you have ever cared about.

The goal of this style is to kill the monster faster, because you've killed the dumb thing fifty times already and you'll have to kill it fifty more before you're done.

[MarkovChain]

mnk/war = pussy mobs, DPS
mnk/nin everything that matters (nothing right now, well voidwatch but it's pure fail)

Also I would just like to point out that 99% of the current content is done turning your back or holding damage in some form (gimp weapon, not using ws etc) "until it procs" so /war is essentially useless and only good for the noob bandwagon that subs war because they can. Give me a reason as to why /war is better than /nin in voidwatch so I can have a good laugh. I swear /sam+footwork would be better for tp moves spam. In dynamis /war is better for JA procs obviously (and counterstance is dumb). Yeah it's sad but that's what the game has become. Proc or bust. DPS doesn't matter on anything.

[Monchat]

Going to repeat:

-nobody cares about damage migration in abyssea, generally: you sub war. You don't care about damage taken, you dont care about PDT nor MDT generally unless the mob one shot you or close. I cared before getting the good refresh/DD atmas, thats it. There are mobs that can one shot you with TP moves but its generally covered with fanatics drinks/ fools drinks ( emperador de altepa when low manning for example). For a mob liek grauberg chariot there are easy tricks to avoid 30k discoids ( force discoid every 10% or so for example).

I mean, look at Dragua or indrik for example. Most of dragua damage come from spells and WS ( => counterstance almost useless, will be dispelled anyway), with a 50% cure potency whm with AF3+2 legs and max refresh atma ( 20/tic + gear) you can just mindlessly DD it w/o trying to switch to MDB ( well just shellra V, dont think its even needed tbh) nor PDT, because your whm will instantly cap your HP for zero hate and never run out of MP. For indrik, this guy is doing so much damage but you whm will still keep you at max HP fine ( you have convert and elixirs just in case). You have no real reason to /NIN on it because it is all the more dangerous that you dont kill fast. And if you take to long to blue proc it, You finish it with a fanatics drink, problem solved.

-If I am /NIN in abyssea it is for yellow procs. /NIN also gives you cyclone btw.

-counterstance: at best ~75% damage reduction on melee hits for MNK/WAR. zero reduction from ws, magic, range.

-counterstance for mnk/nin: ( and PC) 100% reduction on melee hits, 100% reduction on single target magic, and absorb 3 hits for physical WS.

I guess all depends what you call "tanking". If holding the focus of a mob, /war for almost eveything because whms have zero enimity-zeroMP-1k-chain spell cure Vs. you are not using defender etc, just DD abilities, DD tamas. Imean you dotn tank in "tanking atma", idk if they even exist..

If tanking migration means damage migration + Mob's focus, like it has always been, /nin for the above reasons.

Btw. /war advantage over /NIN is not "massive" like some of you think, in term of damage: counterstance is neglectible, at best 5%. Why? because you will attack 10 time while the mob attacks once thanks to all the multi hits atma/gear. Additionally, DA+10% + beserk is only +25% damage at best ( probably less due to atmas and cruor buffs). In other words /NIN is doing 20% less dmg than /war only. And the moment the /war has to use PDT MDT frequently, you see the /NIN will win in kill speed AND dmg reduction, as you use defensive gear less often as /NIN.

Those facts are not even new. I mean people who brought BRD and COR in salvage back in the day knew you can bring all your MNK with /WAR and your 2handers full timeing hasso, and be fine, while if you had less MP support, /NIN or hasso pretty much needed.

[Ladycandygem]

-counterstance for mnk/nin: ( and PC) 100% reduction on melee hits, 100% reduction on single target magic, and absorb 3 hits for physical WS.


100% reduction if shadows are up. Fast attacking mobs or ones that can strip shadows would mean they are not up 100% of the time.



Btw. /war advantage over /NIN is not "massive" like some of you think, in term of damage: counterstance is neglectible, at best 5%. Why? because you will attack 10 time while the mob attacks once thanks to all the multi hits atma/gear. Additionally, DA+10% + beserk is only +25% damage at best ( probably less due to atmas and cruor buffs). In other words /NIN is doing 20% less dmg than /war only. And the moment the /war has to use PDT MDT frequently, you see the /NIN will win in kill speed AND dmg reduction, as you use defensive gear less often as /NIN.


I think you underestimate the difference between /war and /nin for dealing damage.

You neglect the fact that /nin spends time casting shadows. With "all the multi hits", using your estimate, you would be losing around 10 attacks per cast.

And if someone has "atmas and cruor buffs" they are in Abyssea, so probably don't need to worry about PDT or MDT sets, as the whm will just cure them.

There is also Aggressor, which will increase damage and help counter for events where accuracy is not capped.


As usual you should use common sense. Assess the situation and use the appropriate sub job.

[MarkovChain]

Agressor should never be used, ever. lol counter

[Monchat]

why are you comparing a mnk/nin full timing shadows and a mnk/war going all out? I have no idea.

Im saying a mnk/nin going all out vs mnk/war going all out, /NIN loses 20% damage. You are saying that MNK/NIN full timing shadows versus MNK/WAR going all out, loses much mor than 20%? of course, everyone noticed.

If you are taking shadow cast time into account, take the delay, attack, multihit etc penalty from swithcing to defensive gear. ALso just because you are /NIN doesnt mean you HAVE TO keep shadows up. If the /WAR can take hits the /NIN can just cast NI and only that. With marches+haste, 3 hits blocked guarranted every 22 sec and the other hits, if any, absorbed with 400 def is already better than counterstance .

This argument is pointless really, there are situatin for each SJ.

[brayen]

Agressor should never be used, ever. lol counter

Thats either a troll or a terrible mnk

[MarkovChain]

Is this the new rdm melee thread ?

[Ruvion]

Gonna break it down

mnk/war is for damage dealing, mnk/nin is for tanking. * this is true if you /nin to dd your doing it wrong in or outside abyssea*

If someone tells you he is tanking as mnk/war he is probably just subbing war for damage and doing it in abyssea, because he doesnt care about the damage he takes ( abyssea, cure V , cure VI, infinite MP etc). * Also true 99% of whms do not have the 7 a tick auto refresh gear or even 5+, most are full timing af3+2 IF that. meaning they will run out of mp in any situation that's not old content outside of abyssea.

Counterstance doesnt block WS, range attacks and magic. 100% correct

and to clear it up if you tanking /war your not "tanking" your holding hate through superior dps , you'd take a hellva lot less dmg and counter just as much /nin "tanking" the same mob but your kill speed/dmg would be alot less. thats like saying war/sam is for dding not tanking , its both because /sam your dps is so high you are tank by default.

As a career mnk I guess I'll add my 2 cents. /nin and /war are situational. You see alot of /war because there are still noobs out there that think HP tanking is the way to go. While yes, the extra 1k hp is nice, it does nothing to your stats and help you hold hate, just makes you more of an mp sponge for the whm. You also see alot for blue procs. /war gives mnk everything but hexa strike so if you're with a group going for drops, /nin makes no sense.

I personally enjoy /war due to the extra dmg and maybe an extra swing or two. Having brutal, epona's, atheling and apoc/vv atmas I swing like a mad man regardless of /nin or /war. I want to mention this; counterstance may not block ws but guard does, or it may drastically reduce the dmg and a Mnk with capped guard is just so much fun to watch. Guard, counter, guard, counter.^^ can't do that /nin as effectively.

To sum it up, you really just need to be smart. If you're gonna duo something in abyssea, go /nin to save the whm's mp a bit and keep you alive. However, do your homework. If you're going to be fighting something that does nothing but aga, then /nin is useless and you might as well go /war. Thats what I do and end up killing the mob more effectively/efficiently than what I would have trying to keep my shadows up. "oh look, back to back agas, I hate you dragua"

[Dart]

i'll add to the troll fest.

i totally sub /dnc and stun all tp moves with flourish!

or something along those lines. <_<

[Ruvion]

Caste ni
wait for 3 shadows
pop pefrect counter
caste ichi
repeat as nessicary OR
pop perfect on the last shadow of ni and regardless of if the mob strips the shadow manually drop it when ichi is 1/2 way cast.

learn to tank on monk

You do know that perfect counter will remain up with shadows up why would cancel it? What if the mob decides to aga or do an aoe tp move and you still have 45 sec cool down on perfect counter timer? Why are you starting out the fight with Ni up? You do know that ichi overwrites ichi and Ni overwrites both. Save perfect counter for when you need to recast ichi and your timers are down for both. Meh I won't get into teaching you how to really tank as mnk/nin. It's too annoying for the feeble minded. TBH I would much rather have a pld be the main tank for anything outside abyssea. Well it is fun to tank kirin as mnk but only because we used to have to sit back and boost for 2:45 and then chi blast QQ Yes, I've been around on mnk that long! Mnk may get high hp and vit, but the gear and def just doesn't make up for what a pld has. Moral of this story is, be nice to your whms, rdms and brds. They are there to keep you alive and having a mnk/nin main tank isn't always being nice to them.

[Gokku]

honestly i solo'd all of my thf sam nin head seals by bouncing back and forth from bestruk to pallid as monk/blm stunning all GA's and single targets with shoulder tackle/stun. took forever but it beat waiting around in all seriousness dont do this lol just get some friends to help you proc and some th or you will be there for ever.

[Gokku]

You do know that perfect counter will remain up with shadows up why would cancel it?
you cancel the last shadow of ni as a mob attack and it will still take that shadow from ni but your ichi will be up this is assuming the mob doesn't double or triple attack in which case your perfect counter would still allow ichi to go off.

What if the mob decides to aga or do an aoe tp move and you still have 45 sec cool down on perfect counter timer?
see above , also with capped haste generally you can ride ichi until you need to caste ni making the cooldown on perfect irrelevant.

Why are you starting out the fight with Ni up? You do know that ichi overwrites ichi and Ni overwrites both.
because it doesnt matter both give 3 shadows and ill have the timers on both @ 0 anyways.

Save perfect counter for when you need to recast ichi and your timers are down for both.
its just as much of a waste to ONLY use perfect when both timers are down , eventually your going to have both timers down and perfect not up shit happens.

Meh I won't get into teaching you how to really tank as mnk/nin. care to post your gear sets? id love to see what your using. i keep my tp set , inside abyssea vs , outside abyssea vs , pdt , mdt , chakra , evasion sets on me at all times on monk. so id love to see what your carrying / using that makes you such a grand master monk.

[MarkovChain]

I'd love to see how you have room for chakra set just saying. I have an half ass pdt/mdt/eva (cos it's useless doh; thanks easy mode) no chakra gear and I'm 71/80

[Gokku]

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/223548
thats my chakra set , and im @ around 72/80 with just the gear , im missing 4 items to finish my pdt set

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/228624
pdt set missing the 2 earrings . and then the legs / feet debating on just buying the shantoto for 4% on legs instead of making my own +1 legs/feet since im 100 smithing.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/223667
outside abyssea vs my byakkos have 5stp 4crit dmg

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/228690
Eva

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/228692
Mdt

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/228693
defualt tp set

thats most of it.

[Xellith]

MNK/WAR
WHM/RDM

MNK/WAR punch monster
WHM/RDM cure MNK

Monster die

questions?

[Gokku]

whm should be sub sch!

[Deadplaything]

In abyssea there were mobs mentioned that can one shot you Emp de altepa..... Its going to kill you with or without shadows quit trying to come up with excuses on why you still sub ninja in abyssea. Follow the path most taken for Monks.
As far as casting gos spending the time to cast ni on a magic mob when its going to be interupted by your next few hits anyway makes no sense. Also all the mobs who have direct casting and will Ga spell your shadows away. The amount of mobs who have Tp moves that silence you are rediculous. All in all subbing ninja in abyssea is a waste of time and mp and you have plenty of HP if you wernt to lazy to get your Abby of merits, Which most mnks are. Get pdt set a mdt set, Learn to counter get ungimp or play pup by yourself.

[darkvision]

If we're assuming all Voidwatch? I'd very much like to see you tank Hahava and Voidwrought on MNK with only 1 WHM as your support.

i'd love to see this as well, coz i know doe sure it would be a nightmare to do, since shaddows are going to be down majority of the time

[Deadplaything]

I actually did "Better than one" assault the other day it was surprising how much I missed with all my merits and acc, Abyssea does make us lazy.

[MarkovChain]

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/223548
thats my chakra set , and im @ around 72/80 with just the gear , im missing 4 items to finish my pdt set

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/228624
pdt set missing the 2 earrings . and then the legs / feet debating on just buying the shantoto for 4% on legs instead of making my own +1 legs/feet since im 100 smithing.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/223667
outside abyssea vs my byakkos have 5stp 4crit dmg

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/228690
Eva

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/228692
Mdt

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/228693
defualt tp set

thats most of it.

Even though it's not the subject your "outside ws set" is fail. STR > all except for DA and TA.

[Gokku]

Even though it's not the subject your "outside ws set" is fail. STR > all except for DA and TA.
except for the fact VS is a crit hit ws and without RR outside of abyssea your crit rate takes a massive drop. my "massive fail" is -5-15 str for an additional 8% crit rate while closing the D dex gap that occurs outside abyssea.

[Diasetsu]

except for the fact VS is a crit hit ws and without RR outside of abyssea your crit rate takes a massive drop. my "massive fail" is -5-15 str for an additional 8% crit rate while closing the D dex gap that occurs outside abyssea.

Ya know you have Dex-11 between Hands and Belt right? If you knew what you were talking about, and actually trying to close that gap, you'd use at the very least Black Belt, augment a Warwolf Belt, or swing dex +13 on waist alone and use a Pipilaka Belt. You aren't helping dDex with that set. But you are right that STR isn't the end all for VS outside of Abyssea.

[Gokku]

i know im not capping Ddex, the bonus from byakkos dex out does the minus of using heafoc / belt while still offering a straight 70-80dmg increase on all ws.

put it this way i have all the gear nessisary to make any change to my monk / VS set if someone can post some solid math disproving my set vs another set ill make the changes.

[Diasetsu]

An augmented Shura Kabuto+1 should beat out that mask ya use to start. Also for any Voidwatch or higher level Dynamis NMs accuracy is going to factor into WS also. There is no way that you are anywhere near acc cap with that setup on any mob that's worth using a different set than what you'd use inside Abyssea. I haven't seen any hard data on VS crit bonus at 100%TP etc., but knowing base crit rate for what you mainly use that set for would help to further give you suggestions on what to adjust. Those Haidate might not be helping you as much as you think compared to str pants. Obviously str+6 haidate are very nice, but I don't expect or demand anyone having random pool agumented awesomeness.

[Gokku]

ive thought about getting kabuto+1 and trying for aug's on it only 1 cursed kabuto-1 gets sold a month on our sever so its gonna be a bitch to catch it on AH. after looking at what i can get with perfect aug's im definitely going to start saving up tatters / hunting for -1.

[Monchat]

your crit damage +4% most likely loses to usukane haidate, definatly to hachiryu. Hell a calmecac is better. If you have 15% crit hit rate, this stats improves your damage by 4% 15% of the time, by nothing 85% of the time, not factoring accuracy. If you assume acritical hits is 1.8 times a normal hit, you get

(0.15*1.04*1.8+0.85*1.0)/(0.15*1.8+0.85)=1.0096=+0.96% damage. Not much. say you WS in ~170 STR, that brings about 84 WS mods if the 0.83 factor is still valid. +5 STR gives you now +3 DMG. 377 skill give 44 DMG, +35 from weapon. Your new DMG is 35+44+87=166. Old damage is 163. 166/163=1.018=+1.18%, so yeah, a basic shura haidate is better ( outside abyssea), let alone usukane haidate, calmecac trousers or hachiryu haidate. Now if teh +5 STR only give you +2 DMG then the 10 attack on usukane fill the gap nicely.

No, your are not getting high dDEX with that gear, and 15% crit rate is already assuming your are far above monster's AGI.

Outside of abyssea the general rule is multi hit > STR > crit % or dmg. Exception is leg because hachiryu>usukane>calmecac>???.

Dont bother with DEX build outside abyssea, you won't succeed, you'l sacrifice too much multi hit or STR. Also personally I try to keep my accuracy comparable in melee and WS, heafoc and bier belt dont help with that, even though they are the best in abyssea.

[Diasetsu]

Don't forget you have Impetus 60% of the time also, pushing avg crit rate up. I'm pretty sure generic shura doesn't beat byakko. Even though as Impetus's crit dmg bonus increases, it devalues Byakko's +4.

[Gokku]

how does it devalue it , since your not capping crit dmg+?

[Diasetsu]

Let's say a crit hit is 100dmg. You have no other sources of crit dmg bonus except byakko's haidate. Crit dmg is now 104, or a 4% increase. Now let's say you have a bonus 16 from impetus, crit damage is 116 before haidate. Adding Byakko's would increase that dmg from 116>120 or a 3.45% dmg increase for crits.

[Monchat]

i know im not capping Ddex, the bonus from byakkos dex out does the minus of using heafoc / belt while still offering a straight 70-80dmg increase on all ws.

put it this way i have all the gear nessisary to make any change to my monk / VS set if someone can post some solid math disproving my set vs another set ill make the changes.

crit damage is the worse because your crit rate is low. I'll show you on an exemple how your byakko compares to usukane legs, with more details since VS gives an actual base critical hit rate boost at 100% TP.

assume : 21% DA (brutal,epona,/war,atheling) 3% TA (epona)
critical : 10% base on Victory smite, 10% from ddex, merits, before leg.
critdamage : 0 base
STR: 140 base str
1.3 pdif (2.3 on crit) at which point 4 att is about 1% damage up

byakko : gives +1% crit rate due to +10 dex compared to usu legs and 4 crit dmg.
( (0.03*2+(1-0.03)*0.21)*2.25+(0.03*2+(1-0.03)*0.21)+3)*(76+11+0.85*0.6*140)*( 0.21*2.3*1.04 +0.79*1.3)=1721.636211

usukane :
( (1+0.03*2+(1-0.03)*0.21)*2.25+(1+0.03*2+(1-0.03)*0.21)+3)*(76+11+0.85*0.6*145)*( 0.20*2.3 +0.80*1.3)*1.03=1767

Your byakko is at best useful during impetus where you'll average 20% critrate however the higher critdmg boost probably makes it less interesting too. Did the math : when accounting for impetus you average ~20% base crit so 30% on Victory smite and I think +10% crit damage. Therefore the difference is now

byakko : ( (1+0.03*2+(1-0.03)*0.21)*2.25+(1+0.03*2+(1-0.03)*0.21)+3)*(76+11+0.85*0.6*140)*( 0.31*2.3*1.14 +0.79*1.3)=2071

usukane :
( (1+0.03*2+(1-0.03)*0.21)*2.25+(1+0.03*2+(1-0.03)*0.21)+3)*(76+11+0.85*0.6*145)*( 0.30*2.3*1.10 +0.80*1.3)*1.03=2119

[MarkovChain]

how does it devalue it , since your not capping crit dmg+?

Decreasing returns ¿ Also the fact that impetus makes you cap critdmg at times implying byakko will be useless in these situations.

[Gokku]

Decreasing returns ¿ Also the fact that impetus makes you cap critdmg at times implying byakko will be useless in these situations.
unlike the other post , markov whats the crit dmg + cap?

[MarkovChain]

it caps at 100%. Also I'd like to point out that your total dex according to the gear you posted is base + 6, so your are likely to get zero % crit rate from byakko. You need to equal or exceed the target's AGI+7 to gain one crit hit rate. In other words your base DEX must exceed the target's AGI which your are not even doing most likely unless low level mobs.

[CrAZYVIC]

Answering only the OP

I will explain you easy why monk is a good tank in abbysea.

i will take as reference some NMs in abbysea. This NMs are very popular because they drop seals

Warbler

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Warbler

Funereal Apkallu

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Funereal_Apkallu

Wherwetrice

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Wherwetrice


Nonno

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Nonno


Why i choice this NMS? This Nms are almost imposible tank them with a blink tank even with Gnarled horn / Cloack and dagger / Sand emperor atmas and full eva gear. "This Mobs still hiting you pretty nice"

Vs this NMs the /nin tanks have a lot of problems. Here is where Monk/Warrior show the true potencial.

Having the Feet from dynamis. This one

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Melee_Gaiters_%2B1

Using atmas Gnarled Horn / Razed ruins / Sanguine scythe.

You will be hiting the 83% counterstance rate.

50% Ja counterstance + 13% Counter rate Monk lv 81. +10% From the Gaiters and 10% Gnarled horn atma.

You can Use Berserk, Stawart tonic and yellow curry bun before the fight. "And you will be countering the 8/10 attacks from the mob you are fighting making you a beast". This is the reason for Monk/War is very good in abbysea.

Now. There another situation where you will be asked. Come monk for tank enemies VERY dangerous. This enemies usually can do 2500 - 3k damage and 1 shot Good geared PLDS.

A good monk using HP gear and HP food and a nice set of atmas. Can hit 5000 HP. This is pretty enough for EAT TP moves dangerous, agas, etc. A good example

Tanking the Caturae creature like Rani, Raja, etc. This mobs are very dangerous and can hit 2500 - 3500 damage. So a good monk with 5k hp will be enough for tank them

Another good example is http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Apademak

Apademak Is super strong, i saw him Hit 3500 PLDS with Bar thundra, Magic damage reduction gear, shell and atma war lyon. A monk with 5000 hp will be enough for eat all his ultra strong tp moves. In this situations is where you will be asked come tank as monk. But usually the people use monk for farm seals, for farm coins and in some situations for tank this kind of enemies.

[MarkovChain]

Don't make me laugh on judging monk on how you can tank NMs in abyssea. You don't tank anything in abyssea unless you purposely *choose* to fight it in a dumb way. Apademak is best brewed period. There is no excuse for not having brews as they are easily gotten or "easy mode no thanks" because you already mentionned atmas in your strategy. I'm all for the "let kill this NM without x" but first you should apply it to atmas because they are also gamebraking. Kill apademaks without brew and atma on neither you or your mages then maybe we can have a clear idea of why monk/war rocks (or sucks, in this case). What makes you kill (no tank) most high tier NMs in abyssea is either brew or atmas, no the job itself. Soon as you remove infinite refresh on your WHM you'll be asking for refresh2 ballad and marches for your shadows because your monk/war dies in 3 hits.

[Cursed]

Don't make me laugh on judging monk on how you can tank NMs in abyssea. You don't tank anything in abyssea unless you purposely *choose* to fight it in a dumb way. Apademak is best brewed period. There is no excuse for not having brews as they are easily gotten

"Gotten"...
on topic, no. Just no. I'm 49 Apedemaks into my Lv.90 Almace and haven't brewed a single one.
And yes, Brewing annoys the sh!t out of me. Half the people I know can't function properly in game during the times I need them to focus; VW. They're too used to the "oh snap..we're failing... brew it bro"

Saw some vets friggin wipe to Khim with 9 people because they've been turned into total chodes due to brews.

[hiko]

Apademak is best brewed period.

everybody doesnt have only one friend and few alts monojob, and then might want to yellow it

[Greatguardian]

To be fair, killing on the scale of Apademak Horns, it is significantly more time-efficient to farm cruor, farm pops, and brew 7-8 at a time with Sanguine Blade or Wildfire.

Otherwise though, y'all are just responding to Pchan. Y u do this?

[Monchat]

To be fair, killing on the scale of Apademak Horns, it is significantly more time-efficient to farm cruor, farm pops, and brew 7-8 at a time with Sanguine Blade or Wildfire.

Otherwise though, y'all are just responding to Pchan. Y u do this?

So you agree with pchan, but you make an attack to him because its not ok to agree with him. Flash news: everyone already figured out chain brews saves a lot of time, excepts people who think breing X NM is a waste of a brew, as if cruor was a rare currency.

If anyone tells me wasting brew to get 75 dragua scales is stupid, ill tell them it only took me 12 hours to get 75 scales (combined in 2 farming sessions). Some people think they are god because they kill all their 50 dragua the right way!! Oh wait, they used atmas and cruor buffs, lol. WHo cares about those NMs? they are piss easy. Dragua 10min duo/trio at most. So Im saving like 50x10mn+KI farming time, thats why brews are good.

This reminds me of Fishing back in the days. There were fishers who thought only real fishermen got their 10000 moat carp ( or whatever the number is) on their own. People who got them off the AH were level 100 before the guy who fished his carps was lv 50 lol.

[Alderin]

Save VW to the PLD's.

Sure T1-T3 can be done on a MNK. Have done quite a few even as /SAM for half the fight (due to a non-ochain PLD dying). However as mentioned, if you want a stress-free VW run - let the PLD's tank.

Why /SAM? People have heard of meditate & dusty wings right? General consensus is to use a COR as DD's TP source while you wait for hints on procs. Half of the time you are sitting there with 300% TP. Sekkanoki > combo > shoulder tackle > dusty wing > backhand blow. That's 3x procs covered in a few seconds. Not to mention Meditate.

As for the whole /war vs /nin debate. Outside abyssea > just use NIN or PLD. Can be done on MNK but I would hardly call it "ideal".

Aside from that - people have not mentioned the massive enmity reduction you get from going /nin due to the lack of Provoke & DPS. When you have a BLM standing there trying to proc or manaburn something to death - you need that extra means of turning the mobs head rather then Utsusemi etc.

As for the various people that obviously doesn't know what a tank is :

A tank is a player that has pulled hate and is being wacked on by the mob. Hell, I have seen a WHM tank & hold turul for a solid amount of time while the rest of the PT finally got to him after roaming the rest of the zone.

[Greatguardian]

So you agree with pchan, but you make an attack to him because its not ok to agree with him. Flash news: everyone already figured out chain brews saves a lot of time, excepts people who think breing X NM is a waste of a brew, as if cruor was a rare currency.

If anyone tells me wasting brew to get 75 dragua scales is stupid, ill tell them it only took me 12 hours to get 75 scales (combined in 2 farming sessions). Some people think they are god because they kill all their 50 dragua the right way!! Oh wait, they used atmas and cruor buffs, lol. WHo cares about those NMs? they are piss easy. Dragua 10min duo/trio at most. So Im saving like 50x10mn+KI farming time, thats why brews are good.

This reminds me of Fishing back in the days. There were fishers who thought only real fishermen got their 10000 moat carp ( or whatever the number is) on their own. People who got them off the AH were level 100 before the guy who fished his carps was lv 50 lol.

What? I'm not allowed to acknowledge when Pchan says something that is functionally correct while also maintaining that he is a ginormous, flaming troll that no one on any board should ever really reply to 95% of the time? Note: I said reply. I didn't say agree. Pchan gets things right on occasion, and when he's right he's right. That doesn't mean replying to him is a good idea the vast majority of the time.

I thought the lack of a double standard was supposed to be a good thing.

[MarkovChain]

Aside from that - people have not mentioned the massive enmity reduction you get from going /nin due to the lack of Provoke & DPS. .

Provoke is a mediocre enmity boost lol. Aslo why don't you mention the massive amount of enmity that you don't lose due to utsusemi ? There is only one thing that matters in VoidWatch : damage taken. Procing ? What. All the gear sucks, and if you ever find something worth getting that is not AHable, well try in low man until you finally proc it. It could change in the future but right now, as well as for level 95 gear according to dat miners, nothing is worth gathering 15 ppl on regular basis to maximize the ratio stones/items. Therefore it's better to farm your own item and then quit VW. The only decent piece I saw in the dats where a pdt back for monk (yeah ! .. err nvm who cares) and you have 50% chance that it it will be from woe. The other gear that doesn't suck are cure potency gear, that are a great boost to ..rdm, and we all know that rdm is a great healer (sarcasm).

[wish12oz]

Hey Pchan, can you explain your sig to me, I don't understand what exactly you are referring to when you say "learn to test"
Are you saying 70 WS is enough? Not enough? Are you saying there is no difference between 15 and 20? What are you saying?

[Rearden]

I think it's sad Pchan put his mule on a different SE account just so he could troll as Pchan and Monchat

[Vortex]

I think it's sad Pchan put his mule on a different SE account just so he could troll as Pchan and Monchat

i don't think you were supposed to blow his cover, now he won't have a pretend freind, y u do dat???

[Kam]

All the gear sucks, and if you ever find something worth getting that is not AHable, well try in low man until you finally proc it. It could change in the future but right now, as well as for level 95 gear according to dat miners, nothing is worth gathering 15 ppl on regular basis to maximize the ratio stones/items. Therefore it's better to farm your own item and then quit VW. The only decent piece I saw in the dats where a pdt back for monk (yeah ! .. err nvm who cares) and you have 50% chance that it it will be from woe. The other gear that doesn't suck are cure potency gear, that are a great boost to ..rdm, and we all know that rdm is a great healer (sarcasm).
You said Abyssea sucked and was trash, then I saw you come back and spend 24/7 in Abyssea with 4 mule accounts between you and your friend. While I agree that the VW drops available now aren't enough motivation to get into it, post patch you're flat out wrong. There are tons of pieces that are clearly VW drops and it will be laughable to see you unable to obtain them with your only one friend and 4 mules you need to kill anything (yes, I have watched you, you never do anything without MNK THF WHM RDM BLM BRD rofl).

[Monchat]

Not sure I understand your logic. Doing thing with 6 people is stupid yet VW is cool? Who farm seals/gems w/o BLM BRD and THF +whm+dd at least? Soloer who have no friends? You forgot to add NIN to the list for red procing.

[Gokku]

look dont argue with pchan its like feeding a troll just let him post his hypocrisy and move along.

[Kam]

Not sure I understand your logic. Doing thing with 6 people is stupid yet VW is cool? Who farm seals/gems w/o BLM BRD and THF +whm+dd at least? Soloer who have no friends? You forgot to add NIN to the list for red procing.

My logic being RDM and BRD are entirely OTT that only noobs need. I neither specified they were farming seals or gems and nowhere said 6 PEOPLE either (2 people, 6 accounts). Pchan, I assume because of his attitude to others and delusions of grandeur that make him think he's elite, let alone good, has only Mdkuser to play with and the mules they have and when it comes to VW they will not be able to do a thing is what I am saying.

[Gokku]

kam just so you know .... that IS pchan he has 2 accounts.

[MarkovChain]

You said Abyssea sucked and was trash, then I saw you come back and spend 24/7 in Abyssea with 4 mule accounts between you and your friend. While I agree that the VW drops available now aren't enough motivation to get into it, post patch you're flat out wrong. There are tons of pieces that are clearly VW drops and it will be laughable to see you unable to obtain them with your only one friend and 4 mules you need to kill anything (yes, I have watched you, you never do anything without MNK THF WHM RDM BLM BRD rofl).

Post patch drops suck. Which are you considering as decent ? I'm only interested in MNK and WHM personnally. I saw a neck with att and kick attack damage + however there are two sources that contradict each other, one putting monk on the job list and not the other one. The vast majority of seems to be flat out fail. The gear we do know will come from VW (+synergy) are the ones with HQ version and the best I saw was a head gear for 3 jobs and a body with a wierd spelling "pdt -8% and converts damage to TP+14%". I've seen an update saying it reads converts damage to TP +14 and only for the HQ while the NQ has +10 I think. What does this means ? It's probably crap not even worth macroing. I don't see SE giving melee a body that converts 14% of the damage taken to real TP, it would mean getting hit with 400 damage gets you 56 TP ...

Also, I'm not sure why you are angry at mdk and me (like gokku and the BG butthurt crowd), but It's common knowledge that all VNMs are right now 6-able. I know BG like to kill big NMs since back to dragon's aery era and it made them feel superior but hey it's over and VW is definitely not hard nor on the same scale as say einherjar as far as skill goes. The next VU will make the current ones jokes for one and the next paths will probably be easily farmable. Problem is there is no real reason to do it. This is the first boomerang from the monopolity of abyssea. Voidwatch has been designed is 1 day.

But maybe you can develop on what you think will be good gear from voidwatch ?

Also no our jobs setup are typically

verex2 MNK, relic + daurdabla brd, daurdabla brd, RDM, WHM. For VW we use SMN instead of RDM. We used to use THF but I facepalmed on TH3+ being a complete joke.

EDIT : yes you can probably find something decent for some job (I saw cure pot gear for non WHM). However until whm doesn't have monopolity on cure 5 all other cure jobs will suck. We all know what it means when SE say they want to specify SCH or RDM in a different way than WHM. It means that for the rest of the game life SCH and RDM will not be useful, that noone will want to go out of their way to farm gear for them, and that abyssea gear will prevail and keep WHM number one. Give RDM cure V then we can discuss about voidwatch gear not sucking.

[Kam]

I'd bother to copy pasta all the good, blatantly obvious, VW gear if I thought it would mean anything to you but let's face it, your mind is set and you're gonna be angry and shallow minded about it til you NEED the gear, EXACTLY like Abyssea. Am I wrong?

[Kam]

kam just so you know .... that IS pchan he has 2 accounts.

If by 2 you mean 3-4. I know exactly who and how pchan is, everyone is WRONG and gimp til he has to face the facts and obtain said gear.

[MarkovChain]

So what gear do you think is awesome, or even decent, please tell us. I think you have no clue yourself and that you are a sheep that follows what your LS leaders tell you to do. You know, old dynamis, old HNMs, I bet you were doing that at 75 w. This reminds me of the people that farmed ixion cerberus or khimaira at 75, and TBH, I think SE released VW for this kind of people. Only crap drops and at best a one million item to split between 10.

[Kam]

Toci's Harness Rare Exclusive
Body
DEF:60 STR+13 DEX+13 Accuracy+10
Attack+10 "Double Attack"+3%
Sphere: Haste+2%
Set: "Triple Attack"+3%
Lv95 MNK THF BST RNG NIN BLU COR PUP DNC

Heka's Kalasiris Rare Exclusive
Body
DEF:51 MND+17 "Cure" potency +15%
"Cure" spellcasting time -15%
Adds "Refresh" effect
Sphere: Enhances "Fast Cast" effect
Set: Adds improved "Refresh" effect
Lv95 WHM BLM RDM BRD SMN PUP SCH

Mekira Meikogai Rare Exclusive
Body
DEF:70 VIT+17 Damage taken -8%
Converts physical damage taken to TP +14
Sphere: "Double Attack"+3%
Set: Haste+8%
Lv95 WAR PLD DRK BST SAM DRG

There will be a R/Ex version of this with much higher stats (HQ is STR+16 Attack+30):
Mekira-oto
Head
DEF:40 STR+15 Attack+25
Elemental weapon skill damage
increases depending on day
Set: Haste+8%
Lv95 WAR PLD DRK BST SAM DRG

Just a few examples of what we KNOW will drop from VW before it's added. This is where you excuse yourself from getting most of it because you only play MNK and THF and claim WAR SAM etc are pointless, when the truth is that you don't play them because you can't obtain the gear.

Oh and as for current VW drops the body pieces for mages is the best for Enhancing Magic, the best nuking body for RDM inside Abyssea and most likely outside because of the accuracy (inb4 RDM is now useless etc). Keep excusing yourself from needing the best gear Pchan, it makes you look awesome.

[MarkovChain]

You said it RDM is useless so thanks for explaining the arguments before I mention them. Why would I care about nuking on RDM when I could level BLM get full AF3+2 in ~2 days and be better at pretty much anything except refreshing ?


Toci's Harness Rare Exclusive
Body
DEF:60 STR+13 DEX+13 Accuracy+10
Attack+10 "Double Attack"+3%
Sphere: Haste+2%
Set: "Triple Attack"+3%
Lv95 MNK THF BST RNG NIN BLU COR PUP DNC


For monk this body doesn't stand a chance against AF3+2 wether WS or melee. You never wondered why SE put 15 str and 15 attack as well as 15 accuracy on AF3+2 and this body is inferior in all those stats ? Nevermind the increase impetus part or the MA art decrease !


Mekira Meikogai Rare Exclusive
Body
DEF:70 VIT+17 Damage taken -8%
Converts physical damage taken to TP +14
Sphere: "Double Attack"+3%
Set: Haste+8%
Lv95 WAR PLD DRK BST SAM DRG


There are better -dt bodies and I'm putting money on the "convert damage" capping at 100 damage taken. Crap. It doesn't even have melee stats on it so it's a macro only. Until someone shows what it does I'd like to know how you can conclude it's awesome.



There will be a R/Ex version of this with much higher stats (HQ is STR+16 Attack+30):
Mekira-oto
Head
DEF:40 STR+15 Attack+25
Elemental weapon skill damage
increases depending on day
Set: Haste+8%
Lv95 WAR PLD DRK BST SAM DRG

I suppose you won't use it for elemental damage ? Correct me if I'm wrong but ukko's is 2 hit so double attack or crit hit rate work fully on all hit. AF3+2 head is
STR+8 VIT+8 Accuracy+14 Attack+14 Critical hit rate +3% "Double Attack"+4%

is lacking 7 str and 11 attack. Due to the very high base damage on the empy, and high mods, 7 str is essentially crap as boost :
base (131) + fstr (14) + 0.85*0.6*150=221.5 base WSC. Adding 7 str is a boost of 1.5% in damage. 10 attack on WAR mean almost nothing, I mean berserk RCB etc exist. Now assume the 10 attack are still usefull and that with the few attack you get from the 7 str difference you manage to reach +1% per 4 attack, you get maybe +3% damage from the attack.

so this body is ~ +4.5% damage compared to an AF3+2 head with no crit or DA.
DA can proc on both hits equally, crit too. 3% crit is about +3% damage already. +4% DA rate is a bit less than 4% : if you ws with 30% DA already, which is likely, that's 3% boost.

conclusion : AF3+2 head is better than this crap by about 1.5%... And I didn't count the accuracy boost that will happen for the second hit...

=> AF3+2 or bust.


Lv95 WAR PLD DRK BST SAM DRG

good - bad -bad - bad - bad - bad. kay ?



when the truth is that you don't play them because you can't obtain the gear.

The truth is that the gear sucks and that noone does it.

[Kam]

1. That first body is the best Mercy Stroke and Rudra's Storm body outside Abyssea, no SA or TA because I know you're not going to try and pretend THF stacks them often in 2011. Among, I'm sure, other uses.
2. Really? Please show me either a PDT or MDT body for Warrior or Paladin with higher than 8%, not forgetting that Retaliation tanking this should produce ridiculous amounts of TP and therefore be the best DD body also, despite the lack of any other melee stats.
3. I posted it mostly for SAM, I guess you can write that off as an irrelevant job if you like, I'll give you that one.
4. RDM is still the best Salvage healer, for example, while YOU may have capped Salvage gear that doesn't make you right.

I'll continue this argument after the patch when we find out which other pieces are from Voidwatch.

[MarkovChain]

1) THF is not a DD, it's there to poke TH, look @ my RDM comments (and in case of VW, facepalm)
2) PLD body is better because of +HP... WAR don't care about pdt, if they would they should also not use their stance nor berserk or agressor for instance. WAR is there for DD, if they take too much damage switch to monk.
3) SAM look at RDM
4) Wait so because RDM is helpful 20 min into salvage we should be farming 60 NMs to farm outdated gear because SE once decided to put salvage gear to trash ?

If SE decides tomorrow to actually fix THF ( Bully is their fix so far lol) or RDM ( cure V, we don't get it yet, we got a rdm melee spell essentially worthless), pld (still sucks, including voidwatch, pld needs damage +) then maybe we can discuss. It's not me saying that I don't like the jobs so that I don't farm the gear. It's me saying that you will never find anyone willing to spent their playtime upgrading jobs that SE purposely decided to make gimp at something. In the case of thf and sam it is gimp at DD and in the case of rdm it is gimp at healing. If tomorrow SE decides to release gear in voidwatch that is an improvement for the top 6 jobs, then we can discuss? I'm sorry it's not the case atm.

WHM is an overpowered mage job = the reality of the game.
2 DDs not sucking = reality of the game
THF being a TH whore = reality.

PS : this is me talking like this on RDM, even though my level 75 RDM had extremely good gear. SE destroyed RDM.. There was a time where duoing THF + RDM was pretty productive in many thing. Due to TH3+ sucking a basic MNK/NIN+WHM/THF is a lot better.

[Shadowsong]

Jeez, I think that last post gave me eye cancer.

THF isn't a DD? Who have you been playing with? Voidwatch is bad? This is my first experience with pchan, is he trolling?

[Gokku]

no hes 100% serious. but sadly not 100% wrong nore right, to most people thf isnt a DD and very few thfs you encounter could even be called more then dead weight * hello all the thfs on carby without max TH gear wtf *

honestly my thf isnt a "DD" its a dyna th and proc whore and sack puller.

[Greatguardian]

Jeez, I think that last post gave me eye cancer.

THF isn't a DD? Who have you been playing with? Voidwatch is bad? This is my first experience with pchan, is he trolling?

He is incapable of not trolling. You're better off just not paying any attention to him or his mule sock puppet accounts.

Edit: And he plays with himself. And one friend. And that's it. Two people, 4 mules.

[Shadowsong]

The biggest thing that confused me was PLD using HP gear.

[Gokku]

well his argument with pld having a better body is semi incorrect af3+2 body does cap out @ 10% DT , BUT thats if a pld can get that much hate over all a static 8% will do you better with that extra tp bonus going alot farther even if it caps @ 13 tp or w/e a hit.

[CrAZYVIC]

Thief have all arsenal, gear, Job abilities and strong WS. For be a great Deal damager.

Even having all this and post abbysea. Depends of the player mentality the way thief will be used.

Examples: People is lving monk for tank only, they dont have plans of parse his monk in einjerhar or dynamis. People only lv up whm for use that only in abbysea, with infinite mp and for low man with friends NMS, they dont have plans for take a main heal in dynamis or in einjerhar. The same problem is with thief, people just lv up that for tank weak NMS and TH.

If is a player with Thief career. The thief willl be a great deal damager.

In abbysea a skilled Thief, can keep up in damage with any competent DD Warrior included. (Talking about people know what is doing, swaping gear, having haste capped, having good atmas. Not talking about full pinky, or full perle gear DDS)

Outside of abbysea, in einjerhar, dynamis, limbus. a Skilled thief can Keep up but not outparse a equal skilled player using Two handed job.

Sadly but outside of abbysea a 4 hit build sam, a 5 hit build drk, war and drg are superior than DW jobs.

[Rearden]

Thief have all arsenal, gear, Job abilities and strong WS. For be a great Deal damager.

Even having all this and post abbysea. Depends of the player mentality the way thief will be used.

Examples: People is lving monk for tank only, they dont have plans of parse his monk in einjerhar or dynamis. People only lv up whm for use that only in abbysea, with infinite mp and for low man with friends NMS, they dont have plans for take a main heal in dynamis or in einjerhar. The same problem is with thief, people just lv up that for tank weak NMS and TH.

If is a player with Thief career. The thief willl be a great deal damager.

In abbysea a skilled Thief, can keep up in damage with any competent DD Warrior included. (Talking about people know what is doing, swaping gear, having haste capped, having good atmas. Not talking about full pinky, or full perle gear DDS)

Outside of abbysea, in einjerhar, dynamis, limbus. a Skilled thief can Keep up but not outparse a equal skilled player using Two handed job.

Sadly but outside of abbysea a 4 hit build sam, a 5 hit build drk, war and drg are superior than DW jobs.

I bolded the only factual portion of your statement

[Psxpert2011]

Ok ive been seeing this whole new way of mnk tanking that i don't fully understand and apparently some people swear by it. MNK/WAR tanking, i don't get it, when i tank on mnk i /nin for the shadows so i don't catch some of the tp moves and stuff like water V and the like. So i don't understand the reason that mnks are using /war to tank now, i can understand on shadow munchers like turul, though i have never fought turul, but other than that shouldnt /nin still be a must? I understand the defense boast as well from /war but i cant see how that gives enough to make it a viable tanking subjob were you could just as easier sub dnc and violent flourish dangerous attacks. to cut things short im not saying that /war doesn't make sense, im just saying that it doesn't make sense to me. So if anyone could tell me the reason for it and some strategies of how to use it i would appreciate it cuz it will defiantly save me some gil


I'm sorry that your post went neglected and after awhile derailed into other subject which are of no concern. We're speaking and I'm on the same boat as you Kajikuro, I can get a bit confused about what make Mnk a good tank like Paladins are.

There's bias toward ninjas being the tank of choice and also leaning into low-maning partys because people don't want the drama a the wait of normal party set-up (which this MMO was originally intended for). If these subject that really don't help the OP escalates and becomes a troll-fest, just post your own thread.

My opinion agrees with /war being situational aswell as /nin. There's nothing that's better than other unless you count the rest of your party in support. I want to build up my Mnk for Guarding/Countering so I can tank too. I don't want to rely on /nin unless the situation ask for it (see Gokkus post for details). /Nin doesn't make you a better tank, your just prepared for what's coming because shadows are your friend in the situation. I couldn't care less if Ninja was compared over Paladin because it's not a tank. The proper gear and skills ordains you to hold hate, take dmg and stay alive. If you(the OP) can build up your mnk and learn and get the gear and skill you h2h and guard, no matter what sub you have on, you can be a great tank. Play the way you want but study it and take some of the advice from the experience people here.

Please respect the topic at hand and stop derailing the subject. I want to wish the OP much luck and hope you found your answer already. If the OP is satisfied and found his answer, you should be able to 'LOCK' this thread. Good luck!

[Monchat]

1. That first body is the best Mercy Stroke and Rudra's Storm body outside Abyssea, no SA or TA because I know you're not going to try and pretend THF stacks them often in 2011. Among, I'm sure, other uses.
2. Really? Please show me either a PDT or MDT body for Warrior or Paladin with higher than 8%, not forgetting that Retaliation tanking this should produce ridiculous amounts of TP and therefore be the best DD body also, despite the lack of any other melee stats.
3. I posted it mostly for SAM, I guess you can write that off as an irrelevant job if you like, I'll give you that one.
4. RDM is still the best Salvage healer, for example, while YOU may have capped Salvage gear that doesn't make you right.

I'll continue this argument after the patch when we find out which other pieces are from Voidwatch.

You've got to admit, if that's the only decent gear we get tonoght from the update there will be many angry players lol. I'm holding my breath and hoping for the AF2+2 to not suck and whatever comes from WoE to be good [ and I know we do not get AF2+2 tomorrow]. But if you remember back a the lv 80 update, after 10mn of reading the DAT mining threads everyone realized the new stuff replaced 80% of the 75 gear, and they were not small side grates, most great boosts ( and all were Ab-vision gear that is largely irreleveant now).

[MarkovChain]

Looks like the BG crowd is trying to spread wrong info on forums since yesterday btw. They refer to an obscur JP blog where the guy says getting 1/12 on armor plates per kill will suck and mentions it as a proof of HMP (heavy metal plates) coming from VoidWatch, while in reality the blog doesn't show any pic of HMP dropping (does however show a hi potion drop,a mantis eye and a fire crystal in the pool). POIDH ? lol.

It could come from there or not, but really, facepalm on the bullshit info.

[Monchat]

Apparently that war/pld/etc body from voidwatch of fail, dat mined on the test server data, gives +1.4% TP[probably a multiple translation error]. lol.

[MarkovChain]

I checked again the dat results and SE deserves a giant big five ; for monk there is the neck ATT+9 increases Kick damage seems interesting and definitely superior to rancor bare uncapped acc. If uncapped acc there are much better option anyway. We only need to know where heavy metal plates come from now.

[Monchat]

I saw head and back items that I thought were good evasion piece until I realized that the WoE back item and head are better/equal.

totally underwhelming. Keep thinking real content and gear will come every month through new updates, but I think that is just the FF14 syndrome, wb tanaka.

[MarkovChain]

I think they wanted to make alternative gear for some jobs like SCH/BLM/RDM for their cures but they slightly neglected the part where getting WHM to 75 is better and faster. The melee gear, at least for monk, is underwhelming. One might be usable in uncapped accuracy but really.



Toci's HarnessRareExclusive
DEF:60 STR+13 DEX+13 Accuracy+10 Attack+10
"Double Attack"+3%
Sphere: Haste+2%
Set: "Triple Attack"+3%

You are getting maybe 1% crit rate, 0.5% hit rate, losing 6 attack, 2 STR but gaining 3% DA, losing 5 MA. Obviously it has to be used outside of impetus. It's apparently with another body which has dex 12 haste 6%. On the head slot you gain 1% crit 3% hit rate and lose 7 STR, plus if you equip the set you are missing a few kickattacks (not much). The lack of STR on those piece evens with the crit% gain. 5 MA lost seems on par with 2% DA gained and the attack difference. Seems indeed like a small increase "over full AF3+2 outside impetus" as motenten explained in the other thread (I think). But then for uncapped acc it must not be compared to full AF3+2 ... bleh.

The most fail part I think is that it is AH able and that the profit makers will be synergists.

[Cowardlybabooon]

I haven't read everything in the thread, and I know the OP was a few months ago, but I figure I'll post anyways :-). Most people seem to have the jist of the concept down. Basically, get yourself a Verethranga and full AF3+2, get all the Abyssite of Merit, and Abyssite of umm fortune? (forgot name but they give +10 all stats to each one). If you have a whm, everything just becomes silly easy, even the NMs you may think couldn't possibly be easy, they will be. When your WS does 6-7k most of the time, and the aftermath has you hitting 800-900 a significant amount of the time, the mobs just die, so those extra hits from counterstance and double attack are worth the damage taken because the mob dies so much faster. Thanks for listening :-)

[Ruvion]

You do know that perfect counter will remain up with shadows up why would cancel it?
you cancel the last shadow of ni as a mob attack and it will still take that shadow from ni but your ichi will be up this is assuming the mob doesn't double or triple attack in which case your perfect counter would still allow ichi to go off.

What if the mob decides to aga or do an aoe tp move and you still have 45 sec cool down on perfect counter timer?
see above , also with capped haste generally you can ride ichi until you need to caste ni making the cooldown on perfect irrelevant.

Why are you starting out the fight with Ni up? You do know that ichi overwrites ichi and Ni overwrites both.
because it doesnt matter both give 3 shadows and ill have the timers on both @ 0 anyways.

Save perfect counter for when you need to recast ichi and your timers are down for both.
its just as much of a waste to ONLY use perfect when both timers are down , eventually your going to have both timers down and perfect not up shit happens.

Meh I won't get into teaching you how to really tank as mnk/nin. care to post your gear sets? id love to see what your using. i keep my tp set , inside abyssea vs , outside abyssea vs , pdt , mdt , chakra , evasion sets on me at all times on monk. so id love to see what your carrying / using that makes you such a grand master monk.

I haven't checked this forum in months and honestly forgot it about. I am referring to why you would cancel perfect counter, not your shadows ><

[Patters]

I haven't read everything in the thread, and I know the OP was a few months ago, but I figure I'll post anyways :-). Most people seem to have the jist of the concept down. Basically, get yourself a Verethranga and full AF3+2, get all the Abyssite of Merit, and Abyssite of umm fortune? (forgot name but they give +10 all stats to each one). If you have a whm, everything just becomes silly easy, even the NMs you may think couldn't possibly be easy, they will be. When your WS does 6-7k most of the time, and the aftermath has you hitting 800-900 a significant amount of the time, the mobs just die, so those extra hits from counterstance and double attack are worth the damage taken because the mob dies so much faster. Thanks for listening :-)

He's back from the dead with an extra "O" in his name!

[Greatguardian]

Do you, like, not know what a Fanatic's Drink is?

Well, you deleted your post anyways I guess.

[Patters]

Do you, like, not know what a Fanatic's Drink is?


Not to argue but a fanatic's is not always available.

[Greatguardian]

It should be up at least 80% of the time minimum. The other 0-20% isn't going to one-shot a Monk most of the time either.

[Patters]

Although I have learned from past posts that 99% of the time, Greatguardian is right. Listen to this guy. lol