Why do people hate Hvergelmir?

[Yamimarik44]

Hello all! I'm Yamimarikk from Bismarck, I recently acquired the lvl 85 Hvergelmir Empyrean staff, and I was overjoyed at obtaining this staff finally! I'm lvl 90 SMN main and having an Empyrean weapon for my main job makes me smile! I know I don't have the patience and determination to make a Relic or Mythic Weapon at all, so making an Empyrean for my Summoner actually made me not think twice about ever making Claustrum or Nirvanna. Anyways one thing I don't understand is what people actually have against this staff? I mean for any of the 3 jobs it can be used for, yes we all know that the WS doesn't do any damage, it isn't as formidable as say Ukonvasara or Kannagi, we all get that, and I even understand this myself, I only use this staff for fun, or to show off or even to use in Abyssea with Atma of the Sea Daughter instead of Minikin to switch it up, constantly keeping my MP up through Myrkr. Even WHM's get less sass if they wish to make a Gambanteinn, so I would like everyone's outlook and opinion on this Empyrean weapon and why it's the most loathed Empyrean weapon in the game by those who don't understand it I guess. Reason I bring this topic up is because someone I know has followed all her LS's rules and does events regularly with said LS and yet the LS doesn't wana take the time and effort to make the weapon for her, but are willing to make other Empyreans in a timely fashion for other members.

[Limecat]

Because they tried to pronounce it and ended up bursting into tears after several hours of confusion.

[Bubeeky]

I don't have one myself, but if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it's because the weapon doesn't have magical bonuses like MAB or Perp- or w/e...these days, MP+ is easy to come by and Myrkyr only works if you melee obviously, so I'd imagine that the hate comes from the fact that this big bad mage-specific weapon has decidedly melee-specific benefits.

[Yamimarik44]

Well no, Myrkr is a ranged WS you can use the WS w/ Regain Atma/Regain and get back the MP w/o ever getting too close to the battle, and my point was that it shouldn't be an issue how the user will be using it, if this person followed the LS's rules to a T and is still denied help despite all the work she's done for the LS and what not is that fair? Just because the LS wouldn't see "full" benefits as they may see it from this Staff? Isn't it her choice to choose which weapon she wants to make?

But Thank you very much Bubeeky I appreciate your insight on this, and your feedback which is what I wanted.

[Bubeeky]

Glad to be of help :)

[Kyrial]

Not that I agree with this point of view, but I think that some people might see it as that the weapons for melees (or even the shield or harp) are helping not only the player who is wielding them, but improves their performance when fighting serious stuff with said groups, and thus helps the group as a whole. Whereas weapons like Hvergelmir and Gambanteinn are seen more as weapons that are just for messing around with on your own or with friends, and not something for use in serious fights.

[Yamimarik44]

Not that I agree with this point of view, but I think that some people might see it as that the weapons for melees (or even the shield or harp) are helping not only the player who is wielding them, but improves their performance when fighting serious stuff with said groups, and thus helps the group as a whole. Whereas weapons like Hvergelmir and Gambanteinn are seen more as weapons that are just for messing around with on your own or with friends, and not something for use in serious fights.

Unfortunately I feel this is the mindset of said LS to this person. They don't want to hurry along with her Empyrean weapon, even though she has followed said rules and used said points to obtain lotting and helping rights, and is now being overlooked just because the weapon isn't going to contribute to the LS as a whole. I think though they fail to realize that if they keep overlooking this player, they may lose her as I've heard her wanting to leave the LS and maybe finding a new server as well to play on.

As that's being said, thank you Kyrial for your input on the matter I appreciate all feedback on better understanding why people act this way towards helping friends/LS mates make this staff.

[tfun90]

It's always up to the individual to decide how to spend their capitol with the LS. If they do something I deem worthless, they're still doing everyone else's things next. If they're having a problem converting their capitol into rewards, perhaps they should examine what they bring to the table. If they aren't high attendance, full attention people (constantly afk mid-run), then they should expect slower rewards. Heck, one good attendance streak at the right point in time got me the entire sky god's set and w.legs in a month back when it meant something. Granted I practically led the LS and donated time and triggers for bonus points with co-leads.

I guess my point is that valuable, proactive members have less trouble getting their goods.

[Yamimarik44]

I guess my point is that valuable, proactive members have less trouble getting their goods.

This person is a very active WHM in this LS is always helping and doing what is needed of the LS. That was my point this person helps the LS from what I've seen and what I've been told by other LS members from the LS. What I was trying to get at was, if this person is doing what is told of them and is helpful, and wants to spend their points their way, why should it matter how they do it? Should you not help them out regardless of the reward they seek? As long as they're contributing what needs to be contributed?

This wasn't insightful at all. I'm sorry but I'm trying to find aspects as to why people hate the weapon in general. Not question the player in questions work ethic towards said LS.

[Raksha]

Imagine a DRK in your ls wanted help getting a novio so he could spend all of his time nuking instead of meleeing.

That's kinda how i see hverglemir (oppositely, of course)

[Yamimarik44]

Imagine a DRK in your ls wanted help getting a novio so he could spend all of his time nuking instead of meleeing.

That's kinda how i see hverglemir (oppositely, of course)

That may be your opinion on it, but does that DRK still not have rights to the earring, if they have met the requirements? Maybe they plan on leveling a mage job in the future. Even so I understand about priorities for certain items, but we all know a DRK or LS in their right mind will not do such things. This is different entirely, this is making an Empyrean weapon. Not lotting on something that has gil value as well. If that's how you feel about it, that's how you feel. I'm not 100% sure though that is everyone's way of thinking or really helpful in understanding the issue.

[Raksha]

That may be your opinion on it, but does that DRK still not have rights to the earring, if they have met the requirements? Maybe they plan on leveling a mage job in the future. Even so I understand about priorities for certain items, but we all know a DRK or LS in their right mind will not do such things. This is different entirely, this is making an Empyrean weapon. Not lotting on something that has gil value as well. If that's how you feel about it, that's how you feel. I'm not 100% sure though that is everyone's way of thinking or really helpful in understanding the issue.

I have no comments about any particular person deserving/not deserving any particular item.

You said you wanted people's opinion about hverglemir and I gave mine.

Here's the part I was replying to:


I'm sorry but I'm trying to find aspects as to why people hate the weapon in general. Not question the player in questions work ethic towards said LS.

P.S. Whether the item has gil value or not is irrelevant. All items in this game have some cost associated with them. The point isnt the DRK wanting the item, It's the DRK wanting to nuke instead of melee.

[SpankWustler]

For melee jobs, Empyrean weapons make what they already do better. They make Warriors chop harder, Monks punch harder, and Thieves poke harder. This is always helpful.

For a Summoner, Havartidangler is used in a situational style of play that is tremendously different. Sometimes this style of play helps the Summoner deal more damage and gain more MP compared to traditional methods, but often it's best to play the job traditionally.

For Black Mage and Scholar...STOP THAT! PUT THAT THING DOWN! NO! BAD! QUIT IT! THERE'S NO ELEMENTAL AFFINITY ON THAT STICK AND I NO LONGER LOVE YOU!

That said, at this point it's not like anything in FFXI is hard to damage, so does this really matter? If I were in that group's shoes I'd just help your friend make whatever she wants, because it's not like one more melee Empyrean over one Havartidangler is going to do anything palpable for the group.

[Economizer]

For Black Mage and Scholar...STOP THAT! PUT THAT THING DOWN! NO! BAD! QUIT IT! THERE'S NO ELEMENTAL AFFINITY ON THAT STICK AND I NO LONGER LOVE YOU!

If you are nuking more then 50% more, you are doing more damage with the unpronounceable Empyrean staff then you would be with an affinity staff. But perhaps the aftermath should affect spells and avatars? I can't see putting any affinity on the staff, considering what it is supposed to be for, but with affinity and weather, you can do about 50% more damage per nuke, so occasionally matching this wouldn't be so bad, right?

[Kimara]

I don't hate the staff I'm currently building one at the moment. I am also building a Nirvana but for me it's more of what I want to do for fun. I decided to build an emp mainly because it gave me something to do while having to wait to build my Nirvana with it being a much slower process than building an emp staff.

[Dragoy]

I think it's simply about who the weapons are made for in said Linkshell: The players, or the linkshell itself.

If they claim to make them for the players, and have no certain list agreed upon, or any other rules that members are made aware of, I wouldn't stay there for longer than perhaps a half of a blink of an eye, if they refused to make a certain one for certain player for whatever reason.


That may be just me, though. ^^
Blubb Regards,

[Yamimarik44]

Thank you all for your inputs and concerns on the matter. I really appreciate it all, this person is very close to finishing the staff now. Mostly on her own, with help from friends and such as well. It just bothers me mostly because I've seen many LS's and friends deny help to make this empyrean for their LS mates/friends and it shouldn't be a factor at all. If the LS mate/friend in question has met requirements/helped out a lot you would think helping them achieve their LS/personal goals would matter to you.

@Raksha: I was merely expressing my opinion on the matter of how you stated your opinion, though I might've read into it wrong, and for that I'm sorry. I was looking for people opinions, but I think I should have been more specific and asked for opinions as to why an LS, a general mass of people, wouldn't want to help make this item for an active LS member and deny further help after a certain stage when that isn't how the LS functions on other items of this type. Thank you again for your input.

[tfun90]

Why would a "general mass of people" not want to prioritize a staff Empy? Well then here are the obvious reasons for you since you apparently like to ignore them then wonder why there are no reasons left.

1. It is a toy weapon with similar time/gil/effort investment to truly useful weapons.
2. It doesn't help LS runs to anywhere near the extent that a Kannagi, Ukon, or Verethragna do.
3. It doesn't increase the utility or potency of SMN to the extent that any other melee's empy does for that melee job.
4. I'm not even sure it increases the potency of SMN. Isn't SMN's calling card that they're largely out of AoE range and thus hate free, risk free damage?
5. If I haven't even seen an SMN in events for months, guess whether or not their empy is in demand.

If those reasons don't spell a clear picture to why it is a completionist piece and not a necessary piece, you're in denial about how Empys have effected FFXI, and how your LS really functions.

And before you respond AGAIN with "but it's their points, they can burn them how they want," just don't, because you're in denial over how useful a Hv{tab key} is, too. Alssuming that the "certain stage" reference is about taking that empy to 90, it is a complete waste of time as it doesn't improve the weapon's purpose, which is to recover MP through TP. The LS precedent, assuming that there is one about taking weapons to 90, is not that all weapons are taken to 90, but that Empys worth the effort to 85 are up for discussion about 90. If you thought that all weapons are taken to 90 carte blanche, you were wrong, because 90ing an Empy is no minor feat, and the time would be better spent 90ing something else, or starting another Empy.

Staff is not up for discussion because nobody gives a rat's ass about the SMN's staff's base damage or MP boost. I would find it offensive that someone would even deign to request my time on such a useless endeavor. I don't care what they do for me or the LS or anything else, if event time rolls around and it's time to 90 a staff, we had better be scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of things that people want, because that is pretty damn low.

There are only so many hours in a day, and only so many of them do I wish to waste fulfilling some pipedream about melee SMN. I'd do it for a good friend to 85, but s/he better scratch my back right back.

[Kimara]

Now I'm starting to get confused since when do you need a linkshell to build an emp? We dou'd my husbands katana nearly the entire way. I plan it do the same with the emp staff. 2+ people and you can do most of the NM's unless we're talking about you can't wait a week or two and you need it in a day. If you feel like you're wasting your ls's time, do it yourself.

[Scribble]

This wasn't insightful at all. I'm sorry but I'm trying to find aspects as to why people hate the weapon in general. Not question the player in questions work ethic towards said LS.
I'm all for spending your points the way you want to if you are putting in the work. I would hope everyone will agree, but I think you're missing the point that most people are trying to get across here though. No one hates the weapon. In the grand scheme of which weapons will have the most impact on your LS as a whole in terms of time invested vs performance at events, there are many other options that I would see being a priority over this one.

It's like the difference between buying a new set of tires or a set of those flashy aerodynamic windshield wiper cover thingies. One is for performance and the other is cosmetic. Slapping an aegis or ochain on your paladin will make you a better tank. Slapping a howdjasayit on your summoner will make you look cool in town :cool:

[Yamimarik44]

Why would a "general mass of people" not want to prioritize a staff Empy? Well then here are the obvious reasons for you since you apparently like to ignore them then wonder why there are no reasons left.

1. It is a toy weapon with similar time/gil/effort investment to truly useful weapons.
2. It doesn't help LS runs to anywhere near the extent that a Kannagi, Ukon, or Verethragna do.
3. It doesn't increase the utility or potency of SMN to the extent that any other melee's empy does for that melee job.
4. I'm not even sure it increases the potency of SMN. Isn't SMN's calling card that they're largely out of AoE range and thus hate free, risk free damage?
5. If I haven't even seen an SMN in events for months, guess whether or not their empy is in demand.

If those reasons don't spell a clear picture to why it is a completionist piece and not a necessary piece, you're in denial about how Empys have effected FFXI, and how your LS really functions.

And before you respond AGAIN with "but it's their points, they can burn them how they want," just don't, because you're in denial over how useful a Hv{tab key} is, too. Alssuming that the "certain stage" reference is about taking that empy to 90, it is a complete waste of time as it doesn't improve the weapon's purpose, which is to recover MP through TP. The LS precedent, assuming that there is one about taking weapons to 90, is not that all weapons are taken to 90, but that Empys worth the effort to 85 are up for discussion about 90. If you thought that all weapons are taken to 90 carte blanche, you were wrong, because 90ing an Empy is no minor feat, and the time would be better spent 90ing something else, or starting another Empy.

Staff is not up for discussion because nobody gives a rat's ass about the SMN's staff's base damage or MP boost. I would find it offensive that someone would even deign to request my time on such a useless endeavor. I don't care what they do for me or the LS or anything else, if event time rolls around and it's time to 90 a staff, we had better be scraping the bottom of the barrel in terms of things that people want, because that is pretty damn low.

There are only so many hours in a day, and only so many of them do I wish to waste fulfilling some pipedream about melee SMN. I'd do it for a good friend to 85, but s/he better scratch my back right back.

LULZ get over yourself, someone didn't get what they wanted in their LS obviously!!

[Elinae]

he's absolutely right. when you're in a linkshell doing empy's, you can have all the points you want towards whatever weapon you're after. if your empy doesn't speed up future empy farming by any reasonable amount, you're going to be a lower priority than the NIN/MNK/WAR that are after their weapons. heck, my Twashtar is on the backburner in my current LS because i always come BLM, so me having my dagger won't do anything at all for the rest of the group. the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one.

[Dragoy]

I'm glad I never ended up into a Linkshell that precedes the needs of the many over the needs of the few, so to speak. I always helped players with everything, and anything, if I could. It's not like it's a new thing, though, and that's likely why I never did 'end-game' much since most of it seemed really unfair.

As I mentioned before, I guess it's about whom these things are really made for.

When I help people, I don't care at all what it is; the goal for me is to make the player happy, which in turn, gives me joy. It is awfully disheartening how things seem to be now, and again, it's nothing new, but I do think it is more 'in the front' since all of this is more accessible than the equivalent(s) was/were before.


I'm not far from going into ramble_mode, so I'll stop it while I can!
As a conclusion: It's just sad.

[Soranika]

I have an LS leader who /tell me on several occasions that he wasn't going to pull the LS to help me get my hvergelmir because it wasn't "useful" to the ls over the last two months, yet mostly through the use of LS and Yamimarikk, I got mine. Why? I'm one of the very few reliable WHM in the LS who turn out to events. Use of the extra body for holding KI and other purposes (like being a dedicated WHM against ones personal choice of job) is fairly more beneficial than an angry WHM who ends up leaving the LS.

In many of these cases, we've helped LS members farm emp weapons for jobs they don't even join the events on so the point is moot.

It shouldn't be about what's useful to the LS to begin with though. It took barely two hours two help a random guy trio dragua for his 90 emp weapon. His goal was 5 scales at least a day. We got him 12. A good pull with just three people if you ask me. LSs for that are about helping each other on a larger scale, especially when many of the key DD already have 85 weapons.

Side note, I've for one found a HUGE use for Hvergelmir in a low man setting helping ls and random members doing things after subbing out MM with Sea Daughter. Regen effect during the day time for avatars? Lovely. Outside abyssea, I'm still trying to find a purpose for it away from solo activities, but might stick with using elemental staves to keep the perp cost away. For SCH... the staff insures you never run out of MP, even with sublimation. Adloquium ftw.

[Kimara]

I have an LS leader who /tell me on several occasions that he wasn't going to pull the LS to help me get my hvergelmir because it wasn't "useful" to the ls over the last two months, yet mostly through the use of LS and Yamimarikk, I got mine. Why? I'm one of the very few reliable WHM in the LS who turn out to events. Use of the extra body for holding KI and other purposes (like being a dedicated WHM against ones personal choice of job) is fairly more beneficial than an angry WHM who ends up leaving the LS.

In many of these cases, we've helped LS members farm emp weapons for jobs they don't even join the events on so the point is moot.

It shouldn't be about what's useful to the LS to begin with though. It took barely two hours two help a random guy trio dragua for his 90 emp weapon. His goal was 5 scales at least a day. We got him 12. A good pull with just three people if you ask me. LSs for that are about helping each other on a larger scale, especially when many of the key DD already have 85 weapons.

Side note, I've for one found a HUGE use for Hvergelmir in a low man setting helping ls and random members doing things after subbing out MM with Sea Daughter. Regen effect during the day time for avatars? Lovely. Outside abyssea, I'm still trying to find a purpose for it away from solo activities, but might stick with using elemental staves to keep the perp cost away. For SCH... the staff insures you never run out of MP, even with sublimation. Adloquium ftw.

Sounds like it's time for a new LS. On a side note though you don't need a whole ls's help to get the staff, or any of the emps for that matter. Most of the mobs you can duo until the level 90 ones, and even some of those are possible to duo.

[Soranika]

Sounds like it's time for a new LS. On a side note though you don't need a whole ls's help to get the staff, or any of the emps for that matter. Most of the mobs you can duo until the level 90 ones, and even some of those are possible to duo.
You're right. I've considered jumping several time, even going to another server since friends quit or went else where but I justified my reason to stay because I got my +2 stuff for 4 jobs fairly quickly (at least I consider it to be) and now it would just be plain inappropriate to now that many of the goals I set when I joined have been met. I dunno...

And you're right. Yet I avoid many pick up/random parties for some very obvious reasons. LSs tend the be the safer, efficient way to get things done if they're well organized instead of dealing with random people or flaky 'friends'. Then again, higher risk of drama and what not in LSs...