SURVEY: Anyone but thieves please give some feedback on Thief

[Phen]

tl;dr: There are some questions about thieves on this page please respond if you are not a thief

You may have noticed thieves have been pretty vocal about their abilities to date but so far most of our response has been "that is overpowered."
I really want to hear if other jobs feel these are okay/overpowered job abilities.

Here are the basics of some thief abilities and what they are currently set to stay at:

Trick Attack/Collaborator/Accomplice
1 minute/ 1minute/5 minute
Hate control abilities, trick attack allows the enmity transfer to a target by the next hit, collaborator transfers 25% to the thief from a member, accomplice the same but 50%

Questions:
How often do you use a thief in alliance strategies specifically to manage hate?
How well do they function when managing hate?


Aura Steal/Steal
Recast 5 minutes(Shares with Despoil)
Has a chance to dispel a buff(it can miss) and add it to the thief
with merits the absorb is 100%(it can still miss entirely)
Cant absorb many unique buffs(wamoura haste etc)
Can dispel many things that are practically immune to magic dispel(but not traits)
lowering time or separating the two has been ruled out by the dev team

Questions:
Do you think that lowering the timer to 2-3 minutes would infringe on your job?
Have you ever relied on a thief to use this ability?

Despoil
Recast 5 Minutes(Shares with Steal/Aura Steal)
Gives a status ailment when an item is successfully stolen
Dependent on success, not useable on NM or events(limbus, salvage, ein etc)

Questions:
Have you ever asked a thief to use this ability?
Have you ever known a thief to use this ability?


Treasure Hunter
?____? but increases drop rates?

Questions:
How essential do you consider treasure hunter for most events you do?
How much do you allow thieves to increase drop rates?

I'm begging you guys I have almost never heard someone refer to thief as a decent job, I would really like that to change to "its okay but id rather have a war." So please show the dev team you think about thieves.

[Greatguardian]

I never farm Empyreans without a Thief. TH is the only factor that affects Empyrean Material drop rates. I dare say it's essential for anything where the difference between getting drops and not getting them is a matter of a large, tedious time commitment and a shorter, much more reasonable one.

Aside from that, I'm not sure what more can be said. It's a B-tier DD right next to Ninja, Dancer, Puppetmaster, Ranger, Corsair, and Blue Mage with arguably more inherent utility than some of those jobs. I don't feel that Thief really needs much. Asking people to want you for "More than just TH" is like asking people to want Red Mages for "More than just Refresh". Only using a Red Mage for Refresh, like only using a Thief for TH, is a waste of resources. But that doesn't mean that the jobs don't gain a world of utility by having those abilities.

Edit: Survey questions in order,

I never use a Thief to manage hate aside from Collab after a hate reset
I have no qualms with Thief's performance in the limited hate management role I give it. For the most part, I expect other players to be capable of managing their own enmity without outside assistance.

I don't see how lowering the recast of Steal would infringe on anything I do
I have never relied on a Thief to use this ability, ever.

I have never asked a Thief to use Despoil.
I only see Thieves Despoil when they want to steal something, which is rare.

I consider Treasure Hunter absolutely vital for most events that I do.
I don't understand the question. If you're asking how high I allow Thfs to build their TH level, that is situational. When it saves more time in building pops than it takes to build TH, then I ask to have it maxed. Otherwise, whatever they can get works.

[Phen]

Thanks so much!
The reason I ask about TH is many people already say the thief hitting it for a chance of TH upgrade (vs just SA/TA run in) is not worth the TP feed. Thats beyond the fact that until we are told otherwise testing on TH is showing little difference between TH2 and TH8.

[Greatguardian]

That's only really applicable to me on monsters where TP feed is a big deal, which is rare for me. I'm not the type to roll with 5 DDs banging on things, so a Thief adding some TP while my Monk is sitting there with capped Subtle Blow and Penance is really not a huge deal. Now, if the monster was actually a danger and I was trying to limit TP feed as much as possible, that would be a different story. I simply don't find that necessary on most things with my play style.

With that said, I can definitely see where some people are coming from with TP feed auto-wiping them and such. It is an incomprehensible habit of some to bring as many people as possible to one NM, or to simply have many people and use them all on one NM instead of splitting up. Likewise, I can see how this would be applicable on Voidwatch NMs as well, which are powerful, but are not really affected by TH so I doubt it would matter either way.

[SpankWustler]

In Order, with a few questions combined:

Hate Management Questions: Generally the only time Collaborator or Accomplice are truly needed is after something resets hate on the front-line, which is fortunate for larger groups since it's party-only. For that limited purpose, the abilities work well enough.

Steal Questions: Lowering the timer for Steal would allow it to do nothing more often, which wouldn't particularly hurt my feelers. Any strategy or plan based on Aura Steal is poorly thought out, to say the least.

Despoil Questions: Despoil is pretty horrible. I've never even known anyone who even had a macro for it. I expect someone would die laughing if they were asked to use it.

Treasure Hunter Questions: It depends on the event. It's very useful for things that drop directly from a monster and have less than a 100% drop rate. I can't answer the second one, seeing as I'm not the equation for Treasure Hunter. If I were, I suppose my answer would be, "As little as possible. You remember who coded me a decade ago, right?"

Overall, I'd say Thief is in a good place inside Abyssea. It's a B-list melee with a secondary function that blows the secondary functions of all other B-list melee out of the water. It loses quite a bit of ground when stepping outside Abyssea, as do many one-handed melee. It's possible Thief loses the most, though, given how the job works.

[Economizer]

Even if the difference between TH2/3 and TH8 is 1% per tier above TH3, I'd still want a Thief in the party, although for some events you'd have to weigh the difference (but really, if someone is going to sub THF for the event and it isn't just farming mass creatures, why not bring a THF?).

Treasure Hunter can go to 12, so even if the loot drop boost was a +9% boost from Treasure Hunter 3, wouldn't that be pretty important?

Of course, most of this discussion could be avoided if SE would give some general answers to how treasure hunter works so it can be properly tested. Answers along the lines of "rate affects or does not affect items individually or in groups", "different tiers have different boosts or not", and "rate affects or does not affect either/or drop rate items" would be greatly helpful for testing out this mysterious trait. Alternatively, SE will take this secret to the grave, along side the knowledge of how that one boat spawn NM was originally popped.

Depending on how important the drop rate is, and how strong the mob is, there have been times where we've let the Thief melee the mob solo for extended periods of time.

On hate control, a thief is probably the most effective thing aside from being able to drop hate like Dragoons can, or more so, Black Mages can now. Considering how hard it is to get aggro as a White Mage inside Abyssea, it is rarely an issue. Outside Abyssea, certain fights are certainly easier with a Thief's hate control abilities, if safety is the first concern.

[Karbuncle]

I know you said you dont want to hear from Thieves, But i can be impartial if i try. If you dont want to consider it then feel free to ignore the remainder of my post

[Malamasala]

You may have noticed thieves have been pretty vocal about their abilities to date but so far most of our response has been "that is overpowered."

Well, that is what every idiot and jerk will tell you. I haven't seen a single person actually prove it is overpowered. It is just their general opinions that anything new is overpowered.


How often do you use a thief in alliance strategies specifically to manage hate?

In all honesty, never. DRG though have been used on JoL for hate shedding in the past.


Do you think that lowering the timer to 2-3 minutes would infringe on your job?

It is your typical Blood Pact Timer crap design. I wouldn't even care if it was 1 minute recast. It isn't like any sane person will go "Omg, you dispelled the move I wanted to dispel on RDM. I'm quitting".


Have you ever relied on a thief to use this ability?

Never, but the opposite of having the Einherjar boss aura steal your DRK buff soul eater to drain his own HP was fun times.


Have you ever asked a thief to use this ability?

In all honesty people don't really ask other people to use stuff. I rarely see someone ask a SAM for TP. I rarely see someone ask a SMN for wards. I rarely see someone request a specific WS used (unless triggering). People expect you to know how to play THF and do the right choices on your own. If despoil is good, I'm sure you are using it.


Have you ever known a thief to use this ability?

No, I don't notice such stuff. But I'm sure it falls under the same category as 95% of all blood pacts. Shared timers tend to make anything situationally useful worthless.


How essential do you consider treasure hunter for most events you do?

Get it if you can. It isn't like items can't drop without a THF, and it isn't like it won't help to have one.


How much do you allow thieves to increase drop rates?

Tends to be just killing stuff normally. No extra time given to raise TH to max.


Look on the bright side though. At least your Sneak Attack and Trick Attack do not share timers.

[Dijana]

Personally, I think thfs are invaluable, but only for the TH. Do I think they are a bad job at anything else? Certainly not, but I still dont see any changes that could be possible as OP. I think people just get mad when the job they main doesnt get something they want but other jobs get anything even remotely useful.

Offtopic, a thf named Phen, why is that so familiar to me o.o Are you the same phen I always see in artico's art? lol

[Monchat]

Trick Attack/Collaborator/Accomplice

Tric attack is mostly used for damage, almost never for hate transfer. You dont need a hate control job in todays FFXI because of all the atma bullshit in abyssea. Every dd can maintain the focus of a mob w/o any external help, w/o using defensive skill and abilities, because whms have those infinite MP-zero enimity-for1k~1.5k cures. Collab and accomplice have become useless. I used them from time to time at 75, for example on Ix Mnk when doing with a rdm.




Aura Steal/Steal
Questions:
Do you think that lowering the timer to 2-3 minutes would infringe on your job?
Have you ever relied on a thief to use this ability?

Steal is useless. There are things worth stealing but the steal rate is so low nobody cares ( dynamis mobs). Steal a gold beastcoin? it takes 2 minute to warp in abyssea, buy cruor gear, warp back , NPC it and buy 2 coins with it off the AH. Steal to make profit? lol.... 5 min recast is so bad when you know it has less than 50% success with max steal+ gear.

Aura steal is not 100% and on 5 mn recast, compared to finale and dispel being 10 seconds and they either basically never resist or mobs are imune. Do I need to say more.



Despoil
Questions:
Have you ever asked a thief to use this ability?
Have you ever known a thief to use this ability?

I have ( honestly) never used it...




Treasure Hunter

Questions:
How essential do you consider treasure hunter for most events you do?
How much do you allow thieves to increase drop rates?

Make TH level increases noticable. Untill then I'll be happy with my 90 THF mule that is basically only range attacking the NM and afk until it is dead. Some times in try to improve my TH level through sneak attack and trick attacks when the pop of the NM is hard to get ( +2 upgrade Nms, dynamis NMs), most of the time I dont care.

[Arcon]

I'm also a THF, but I've led plenty of events to know of strategy and what to expect from a job.


Trick Attack/Collaborator/Accomplice
[..]
Questions:
How often do you use a thief in alliance strategies specifically to manage hate?
How well do they function when managing hate?

Specifically? Never. Occasionally nice to keep mages hate a bit lower, for hate reset cases. Not too shabby, but nothing to count on.


Aura Steal
[..]
Questions:
Do you think that lowering the timer to 2-3 minutes would infringe on your job?
Have you ever relied on a thief to use this ability?

No, I would hardly notice it. As would THFs, imo. It's not so useful that I even need SE to lower the recast, especially since Steal is useless itself. I just think their excuse is garbage, as are most of their excuses. I have no idea why they keep feeding us lies, either they don't know any better, which would make them dumb, or they are too lazy/biased/whatever and just don't wanna do it, which makes them liars and frauds. I don't know which is the lesser evil.


Despoil
[..]
Questions:
Have you ever asked a thief to use this ability?
Have you ever known a thief to use this ability?

No and no. Complete garbage, more worthless than Steal, which is sad.


Treasure Hunter
[..]
Questions:
How essential do you consider treasure hunter for most events you do?
How much do you allow thieves to increase drop rates?

For the events that it actually affects (which, sadly, aren't the most interesting ones) I consider it quite useful, although depending on the event not essential.

Abyssea farming, for example, relies on monsters' weaknesses more than Treasure Hunter to be efficient. If you have both, great. That's why I love to tank on THF, especially since it's not all that shitty DD inside Abyssea. However, if people don't have THF, or rather wanna kill faster (MNK or WAR can kill twice as fast, and they're essentially as good as THF tanks), then it's not worth having a THF (unless the triggers are hard to get by, like for higher tier NMs). That's why you also see many WHM/THF in Abyssea. No real sub required and it gives a decent enough value of TH. Replacing the MNK with a THF would give you a < 10% higher chance of drops, gut would kill 100% slower (if not more). So for seal NMs it's not worth it at all.

Then there's plenty of events and NMs that aren't affected by TH at all, Einherjar, certain Salvage mobs, Limbus, BCNMs, etc. So THF are pretty useless for these too, unless they wanna pretend they can tank.


Look on the bright side though. At least your Sneak Attack and Trick Attack do not share timers.

One hell of a bright side.

Edit:
As I said, I'm also a THF, but I play enough other jobs as well, and since I'm a LS and event leader, I'm often in a position to decide strategy and job distribution. And thus I believe my answers are qualified from an objective point of view.

[Rosina]

i miss traditional parties and always enjoyed having a thief in my group for nice burst dmg (multi crits = fun), pulling, as well as to help with hate management. I do not think theif is that overpowered.

[Francisco]

How often do you use a thief in alliance strategies specifically to manage hate?

Never. For the record, my job is MNK.


How well do they function when managing hate?

I think the enmity removal abilities are nice if a mage is in trouble for some reason... not going to make much difference on a melee like a MNK or WAR or whatever for more than a minute or so.


Do you think that lowering the timer to 2-3 minutes would infringe on your job?

No, most effects that are removed via Aura Steal are just reapplied to the enemy anyway.


Have you ever relied on a thief to use this ability?

No, mostly relied on Dispel for dangerous effects.


Have you ever asked a thief to use this ability?

No, I don't see any real benefit from it... didn't know about the ailment thing... but I assume a mage will handle the enfeebling anyway.


Have you ever known a thief to use this ability?

Yes, for stealing Murex Spicules when they were like 100,000 gil... but that's about it.


How essential do you consider treasure hunter for most events you do?

Not at all useful for VW (think SE said they'll change this)... not very useful for farming empyrean armor seals... EXTREMELY useful for farming Empyrean weapons... I can't really say much on WoE, as I never had a THF there... I'd want a THF on older NMs like Tiamat though... TH seems a little less relevant on some of the new content since there are other ways to obtain items now (trigger system, items loading from chests)...


How much do you allow thieves to increase drop rates?

Usually the duration of the fight - unless the TP feed/THF damage taken becomes a burden on the WHM. On fights like Chloris, we usually had the THF get off after like TH7 or 8... or 50% health, to avoid being killed by Fatal Scream. (Some LS people were convinced TH resets to 0 if the THF dies.... I honestly don't know if it's true or not).

[Malamasala]

Some LS people were convinced TH resets to 0 if the THF dies.... I honestly don't know if it's true or not

It is not true.

[Bubeeky]

I don't know about overpowered, but I used to duo everything in aby with a thf....I was on whm and he'd basically never get hit....if anything it was a little boring lol. He used collaborator and accomplice quite often, but he relied on haste and max eva and it worked really well.

[RAIST]

Personally, I was a little confused why they made some of the timers shared (that's for all jobs...some things make sense I guess, like DRG's tiered jumps, but others are ???) . I have some THF friends that work hard on hate control duty, and it's kinda 50/50 success rate I guess--never really watched it for the purpose of tracking how effective it is. I can say that there is one particular Girlka THF that has saved my butt several times when a mob turned towards my mages. So, I would say THF IS able to help out with hate control in the right situations. IDK just how they could tweak accomplice/collaborator though...maybe drop accomplice's timer a little so it's more readily available or maybe give each move a higher volatile enmity spike, IDK. Like I said, never really watched them to evaluate how powerful they are in the first place. My THF was stopped at 51 before all these goodies were even added, so I've only used it myself for solo farming in the last few years.

As for TH...always liked to have that around when going specifically for anything. With the crappy random system in FFXI...need all the help you can get sometimes. Would even go do stuff mage/THF sometimes just in case it MIGHT have any impact (I have a tendency to go berserk on Mages and sometiems melee when farming). So, do I/we ask for THF for TH in my circle of friends? ... A LOT.

What really always bugged me about THF (pre-abyssea, and I imagine it still applies post-aby as well)--is how parties never understood how to take advantage of THF in parties. I always got excited when I saw I was going to a party and a THF was going to be there. I would look forward to magic bursts I'd get to do with my BLM....and then they wouldn't even be setting up SATA, much less taking advantage of it for the big spikes in a WS chain--|Thief| |Fisherman| |Please|.... what a waste. IDK how many times I would have to tell the THF's to just go ahead and stick me if I was on a DD that could take the heat for a bit...just so we could get the extra damage.

I kinda look at THF like waiting tables--everyone needs to try it once so they can appreciate all the crap they go through and gain an appreciation of the job so they'll leave them a decent tip. Play THF at least long enough to get a grasp of SATA in action. Once you experience first hand how much work it is for a THF and how they can help control the flow of a party....maybe they will gain more respect/support in their efforts to do what they do best.

[Nebo]

FIrst off, it is no secret that I am a THF main, but I also spent a great deal of time organizing events over the years, spending a LOT of my time on other jobs because there was some other THF mule with max level TH. And that was really all THF was functionally useful for...3 pieces of gear and a job trait.



Trick Attack/Collaborator/Accomplice
1 minute/ 1minute/5 minute
Hate control abilities, trick attack allows the enmity transfer to a target by the next hit, collaborator transfers 25% to the thief from a member, accomplice the same but 50%

How often do you use a thief in alliance strategies specifically to manage hate?

The last time I used a THF to manage hate in a party was really low level experience points parties when FFXI was first released. Remember the ones where SATA Viper Bite was the god of closing Distorition Skillchains and BLM magic Bursts?

But even then, it was more a way of dealing massive damage with the side effect of making it safe by transfering the enmity to your tank. Today, the damage payout is no where near what it was then. It's not worth it for groups to cater to THF's positionally restricted playstyle...so they don't.

I have never asked a THF, nor have I ever been asked to come to any event for the purpose of enmity management.


How well do they function when managing hate?

Trick Attack is really a Damage tool with the added effect of Increasing Treasure Hunter. As an enmity tool with group utility, it is essentially useless. No tanks (DD or PLD or Otherwise) have ever had any trouble REACHING the enmity cap quickly.

Collaborator is somewhat useful for lowman THF tanking. That's really where I see it used and where I use it the most. SE doesn't want THF to tank though.

For the purpose of "enmity management" A party only 25% enmity steal, with a very limited range, on a one minute timer is a like a teardrop in a lake. The ability is too restricted to have any real meangingful impact on enmity outside of lowman situations.

Accomplice is not worth using. A 5 minute recast is way too long for this ability AND it prevents collaborator use for 5 minutes.


Aura Steal/Steal
Recast 5 minutes(Shares with Despoil)
Has a chance to dispel a buff(it can miss) and add it to the thief
with merits the absorb is 100%(it can still miss entirely)
Cant absorb many unique buffs(wamoura haste etc)
Can dispel many things that are practically immune to magic dispel(but not traits)
lowering time or separating the two has been ruled out by the dev team

Questions:
Do you think that lowering the timer to 2-3 minutes would infringe on your job?

As someone who used to go BRD/SCH quite a bit to things like Nyzul Isle to have both light and Dark based dispel...no. I don't think actually GIVING THF the functional ability to dispel instead of restricting aurasteal into functional uselessness would infringe on any job.

If anything, I think groups would welcome the additional dispel. Things like Glavoid that need multiple dispels spammed etc.


Have you ever relied on a thief to use this ability?

No. You can't rely on a THF to use this ability. (I know several THFs that don't even have it unlocked it in favor of 5/5 Assassin's Charge and 5/5 Feint). The recast timer is absurdly long for a dispel ability, which just means you will dispel an effect that the monster will reapply 10 seconds later. The effect dispelled cannot be spcified (which is the case of all dispels but this is especially an issue because aurasteal is on a 5 minute recast). Aurasteal can miss. It can steal an item instead of dispelling an effect.

There are too many ristrictions and random factors tied to Aurasteal for it to be relied upon for anything. They would have to lower the recast timer to something like 30 seconds for Aurasteal to be really useful at all.


Despoil
Recast 5 Minutes(Shares with Steal/Aura Steal)
Gives a status ailment when an item is successfully stolen
Dependent on success, not useable on NM or events(limbus, salvage, ein etc)

Questions:
Have you ever asked a thief to use this ability?

No.


Have you ever known a thief to use this ability?

I know a few that tried it when it first came out. But as soon as they realised that it only stole the same kind of useless items as Steal and inflicted a sort of random enfeebling effect (based on one of a few items to steal that is a random variable you have no control over)...I have never seen anyone use it in battle to attempt to take advantage of the enfeebling effect.

That, and it also shares a timer with Steal and Aurasteal. That alone is a reason I would never use it.



Treasure Hunter
?____? but increases drop rates?

Questions:
How essential do you consider treasure hunter for most events you do?

I'm still doing a lot of things inside Abyssea right now as I took a long break from the game.

The only things TH is needed for are Empyrean Weapon Upgrade items. Glavoid Shells etc.

For everything else, the weakness trigger system has a much more significant impact on drop rates than Treasure Hunter Does. If I run with my low man group, we make sure we have our weakness triggers generally covered before someone even thinks about coming THF. That is how "essential" TH is inside abyssea.

I can Kill Turul with just myself on THF (TH7-10) and a WHM....but I'm not going to see a Loki's Kaftan if I don't bring a Blue weakness trigger. New events like voidwatch rendering Treasure Hunter useless, etc.

(I can't help but be angry about this. Every event SE is adding weakness triggers to unlock drop rates, and for these events, THF is a third string afterthought for drops or not useful at all.)


How much do you allow thieves to increase drop rates?

I let them Sneak Attack and Trick Attack till their heart's content. But unless the THF is tanking, meleeing full time to enhance Treasure Hunter effectiveness level is generally not allowed on hard mobs.

Then again, though, if the THF is tanking, he is not enhacing treasure hunter effectiveness level as effectively as he could if he were riding SATA timers either.

[Alaik]

This thread is great, even if I'd put money on it not doing jack. Oh, well, not true. They might make bully a 10% intimidation chance for 30 seconds instead of a 5%.


(Sarcasm for those who can't catch that)

[Alhanelem]

Not going to answer all the questions but I'm not a thief and aura steal still seems weak to me. You never hear anyone say "oh, we need a THF with aura steal." Yes, as the devs pointed out, it can dispel effects on some monsters on which normal dispels do not work. But such situations are few and far between, and the recast is still too long for it to be useful.

[Khiinroye]

Trick Attack/Collaborator/Accomplice
1 minute/ 1minute/5 minute
Hate control abilities, trick attack allows the enmity transfer to a target by the next hit, collaborator transfers 25% to the thief from a member, accomplice the same but 50%

Questions:
How often do you use a thief in alliance strategies specifically to manage hate?
How well do they function when managing hate?


The thief will occasionally try to collaborator or accomplice a mage who pulls hate, but we don't rely on them for hate control. Trick attack is used for attempting to proc TH upgrades.



Aura Steal/Steal
Recast 5 minutes(Shares with Despoil)
Has a chance to dispel a buff(it can miss) and add it to the thief
with merits the absorb is 100%(it can still miss entirely)
Cant absorb many unique buffs(wamoura haste etc)
Can dispel many things that are practically immune to magic dispel(but not traits)
lowering time or separating the two has been ruled out by the dev team

Questions:
Do you think that lowering the timer to 2-3 minutes would infringe on your job?
Have you ever relied on a thief to use this ability?


We don't rely on thfs to use the ability to dispel; we usually have both Dispel and Finale available for difficult enemies, so resistances almost never play a factor in dispelling. A 2-3 minute timer wouldn't infringe on jobs that can dispel.



Despoil
Recast 5 Minutes(Shares with Steal/Aura Steal)
Gives a status ailment when an item is successfully stolen
Dependent on success, not useable on NM or events(limbus, salvage, ein etc)

Questions:
Have you ever asked a thief to use this ability?
Have you ever known a thief to use this ability?

No and no.



Treasure Hunter
?____? but increases drop rates?

Questions:
How essential do you consider treasure hunter for most events you do?
How much do you allow thieves to increase drop rates?

For non-blue proc or chest drops, we always bring a thf for TH. For easier drops, like the 3rd stone or 2nd empyrean upgrade drop, we'll just go with whatever TH we manage to get before it dies after the desired triggers. For rarer drops, we wait for TH 10+. For voidwatch, we don't bring a thf, because we have a rng for marksmanship, archery, and ranger JA triggers. We typically don't have trouble capping alignments, so TH has no effect on drops at that point.

[Economizer]

You never hear anyone say "oh, we need a THF with aura steal."

You never hear anyone say "oh, we need a WHM with Martyr" either... not that this "argument" would be a good reason to buff or nerf Aura Steal.

For mobs that resist dispel, I usually ask for a Blue Mage to be honest, especially if it is a soulflayer. Thief has so many other uses that I think that I wouldn't care if they didn't have Aura Steal at all.

[Alhanelem]

You never hear anyone say "oh, we need a WHM with Martyr" either... not that this "argument" would be a good reason to buff or nerf Aura Steal. Not by itself, no. But when an ability is optional and must be earned, and deemed not worth getting or not adding anything to the job, it should be revised until it does. it doesn't need to be revised into a totally essential function, but it should be revised to the point where its actually as good in practice as the developers think it is in theory.

The point of the "you never hear anyone say this" statement is simply to iullustrate that the ability currently isn't even treated as desirable, much less necessary or useful.


Thief has so many other uses that I think that I wouldn't care if they didn't have Aura Steal at all.Which is the whole point. It should be useful enough that you would at least be interested to know if they have it when you look for a THF.

[Glamdring]

Thief can be an excellent DD, and is one of the best means of hate control (when you are in a situation where anyone cares anymore)... if the other players will cooperate. There's alot of jobs like that, pld with cover, bard when trying to buff groups seperately (yes, I know bard can single target a spell, but he might be trying to hit 2 people, not 1).

As with alot of these type of abilities they require the party to cooperate with positioning, AND to hold the mob in 1 place; difficult to do when all anyone but the thief is worrying about is maxing out a DPS parser. SA and TA cannot work except by luck if either of the above factors is not present, Accomplice requires that the target be in range which usually puts the target (generally a squshier player) in AoE harm's way.

as to your questions about Aura steal and Despoil (which seem targeted at their Debuff properties, not item acquisition), thief is expected to use them, but noone DEPENDS on them due to their low percentage; in other words, nice if it works but we don't cry if it doesn't (the thief might tho'). On the subject of thief debuffs you missed Feint but that's ok, since most thieves don't seem to use it either, and honestly you'll have better luck with a dancer for that anyway.

TH is almost essential if you are farming a direct drop, but out the window if it is a casket drop, a !! drop, etc. Unfortunately, the rising TH doesn't really seem to have an appreciable, measurable effect on success rate... at least beyond TH3.

By no means is thief an over-powerred job in the current game environment. If anything, they are overshadowed on just about anything they can do by other jobs. Dnc or nin mains are better eva tanks and I think both have Thf beat from a DD standpoint with the possible exception of those unpredictable times triple attack seems to proc on every swing. TH can be accomplished by a bst with Yuly which also increases DD from your TH source AND makes the aggregate HP in the 6k+ range from that 1 player even before adding atma, cruor buff and healing foods/abilities into the equation, thus increasing survival. While they are the best at manipulating hate, the fact remains that hardly anyone bothers to control hate anymore so all their abilities in that regards are irrelevant.

Truth be told, while thief is in a decent area ability-wise, current play style is killing them. As always, that means you will see alot of solo thf out there, regardless of what they have to bring to the party.

This answer is from a 90 thief... who never really plays it anymore because my bst and dancer both do it better.

[Glamdring]

You never hear anyone say "oh, we need a WHM with Martyr" either... not that this "argument" would be a good reason to buff or nerf Aura Steal.

For mobs that resist dispel, I usually ask for a Blue Mage to be honest, especially if it is a soulflayer. Thief has so many other uses that I think that I wouldn't care if they didn't have Aura Steal at all.

Bard works well on the dispel resistant as well. I used to get alot of calls for my brd when soulflayers were on the menu.

[Ahrana]

Short version:

Thief is one of the first jobs we get after required jobs are filled, but we generally only ever have one. The gap that they fill is treasure hunter, but it's rarely necessary to bring more then one.

[Jar]

Aura Steal is useless and not asked for because there are so many other jobs that can dispell

why everyone is crying that DRK gets an absorb spell is beyond me Your job is in a real nice state to be bitching about something no one uses...

The hate thing THF can do it. it's not broken at all, and if buffed to move more hate around they will only lead to it being OP outside of abyssea.

you have unparalleled EVA and that's why you cant do Crazy damage you lose out on DD ability for survivability


also to GG dont put BLU and PUP in as weak <3 they are in the list of OP jobs in the game right now.

[Insaniac]

I just wanna say a couple things.

Regarding TH procs and +1 gear being a 1% increase to drop rates. This, based on drop rates I've been recording for the last couple months, is a mathematical impossibility. In reality it either works in a way that we have no comprehension of or it is a much much much lower increase.

Now I would like to explain my concern with THF. THF is the exact same job it was at the 75 cap save Critical att bonus and the fact that for a TP dump fight you can now /sam or /war and still DW which is a welcome change. Beyond that we have been given pure garbage. I don't think THF is a terrible job I just think it has been treated unfairly in the job growth department.

New stuff
Despoil - one of the worst, most useless JAs in the game. I wouldn't even have this macroed if it didn't share a timer with steal.
Conspirator - Used only cause it's there. No real noticeable bonus
Bully - Holding judgment til the test servers come up tomorrow but it sounds terrible.

TH3 and procs- In my opinion these are just a miniscule increase (in the range of 1-2%. procs included) that SE added as a placebo effect to keep THFs getting invites. I've been DBing carabosse with WHM/BLM and NIN/THF simply because I don't feel like changing from NIN/WAR to THF/NIN is worth the effort and time. I have seen no noticeable decrease on the drop rate of gems or PIs for the KI NMs. If THFs only real job is TH then it needs to absolutely crush the TH ability of every other job in the game which is does not. TH12 might look nice but in reality it should just be called TH-waste of 15 minutes.

Compare all that to new abilities and spells that other jobs have received and the gap in growth is undeniable in my opinion.

Adjustments
Increase of Hate Removal JAs range from 7 to..... 14.... cool.

SE has fixed a lot of broken things and buffed some things that should not have been buffed. In all of that fixing and buffing this is all THF got. THF has the highest% of useless JAs of any job in the game and they haven't even touched them. Mug and Steal are actually what one would expect to define a THF and they are relatively useless. Enmity stealing JAs are sometimes nice in a pinch if you are low manning but in situations where they would actually be truly needed (mostly talking about voidwatch) they are very underpowered in the department of keeping hate off of someone and very overpowered in the department of capping a THFs hate when he doesn't want it and forcing them to take a dive to prevent problems.

I also needed to reply to this:


Aura Steal is useless and not asked for because there are so many other jobs that can dispell
This we agree on.


why everyone is crying that DRK gets an absorb spell is beyond me Your job is in a real nice state to be bitching about something no one uses...The issue is that SE told us a month ago that this would be overpowered for THF. None of us are upset that DRK is getting it. To me it makes sense but it means that SEs excuses about aurasteal are complete BS. People don't like being BSed.


The hate thing THF can do it. it's not broken at all, and if buffed to move more hate around they will only lead to it being OP outside of abyssea. I don't agree with this. The problem is more with the hate system than the JAs themselves. Separating the timers, making them work across party, and giving THF a hate dumping ability would put THFs hate control power right where it needs to be imo.


you have unparalleled EVA and that's why you cant do Crazy damage you lose out on DD ability for survivabilityNIN and DNC both easily cap evasion and have much more survivability and damage capabilities. Then you have MNK with survivability and extreme damage. Most of this only applies inside abyssea. Outside on anything that matters THFs evasion amounts to very little and is not a justification for gimping any other aspect of the job. On top of that no one asked to do extreme damage on THF.

[Dart]

you got placebo hunter, what more do you need?

oh yea evasion~

You can't possibly compare nin vs thf evasion wise. Traits put thief in an entirely different league. Anyone who's done any prolonged tanking on both jobs should know this. Dnc is a bit different that I'll agree with you on (but thief is still the clear cut winner).

[tinydog]

in our alliances we use thf's for Treasure Hunter procs; blue, red, sometimes yellow procs; main tank; they make great NM claimers/pullers do to flee; and as a blm when my emity douse is on cooldown accomplice saves the day. they also can steal buffs. oh and always good to have a thf when farming pop items.

[SpankWustler]

in our alliances we use thf's for Treasure Hunter procs; blue, red, sometimes yellow procs; main tank; they make great NM claimers/pullers do to flee; and as a blm when my emity douse is on cooldown accomplice saves the day. they also can steal buffs. oh and always good to have a thf when farming pop items.

You have an amazing sense of humor.

[Insaniac]

you got placebo hunter, what more do you need?

oh yea evasion~

You can't possibly compare nin vs thf evasion wise. Traits put thief in an entirely different league. Anyone who's done any prolonged tanking on both jobs should know this. Dnc is a bit different that I'll agree with you on (but thief is still the clear cut winner).Yonin + a couple pieces of evasion gear puts NIN on the same level as THF. THF has a higher potential when you include gear but if you are full timing an Ohat you are doing it wrong. It's not about the most evasion it's about hitting cap and ninja can hit cap very easily on 90% of the things THF can hit cap on. I have both jobs and I play them all the time.

Edit: Oh yeah add in that a NIN can debuff most things it's soloing or duoing and NIN survivability is wayyyyyy beyond THFs.

[Saefinn]

My THF is level 1 and I've never ever played it, so excuse any ignorance on THF as a job.


How often do you use a thief in alliance strategies specifically to manage hate?
How well do they function when managing hate?

I can't say I pay attention enough to specific JAs to be able to answer the first question accurately. But normally I see THF stratagise when they lose hate, but don't seem to find it that difficult when geared right - normally I just see a blur of attacks and Utsusemi coming from the THFs I normally have tank. Most of the time I see a THF lose hate it's when it has been reset.

As a mage I love that they can steal my hate. I manage my own emnity as a SCH - I slap on Atma of the Merciless Matriarch for superior enmity descrease based on weather and just keep my weather spells up (on top of my -enmity gear). Libra allows me to keep an eye on my %age but for a number of reasons you can gain hate and somebody with provoke will find it difficult to get it off of you. Even if they do, I have to hold back on curing and nuking until my hate comes back down. THF can steal my hate so that's not actually a problem. Especially awesome if hate has just been reset.



Aura-Steal

Do you think that lowering the timer to 2-3 minutes would infringe on your job?
Have you ever relied on a thief to use this ability?

Short answer - No and no.

Long answer -

Would it infringe on my jobs? Not at all.

VS Dispel (my SCH and COR)-
Aura-Steal doesn't proc yellow.
Aura-Steal can be more effective.
But Dispel can be spammed. Mob puts spikes up, THF Aura Steals, mob puts spikes up again, you've got to wait 3 minutes to remove them, your RDM(/RDM) or SCH(/RDM) could be spamming dispel. COR gets 60 seconds (unmerited) recast per Quickdraw charge (total for 2) and Dark Shot hasn't replaced Dispel.

VS Buffs (my SCH and COR)-
People in your party can buff you when you're the THF, so they're not going to be replaced and with people selecting your buffs at least it's less random and there's fewer restrictions and also their buffs are met with much short recasts. 60 seconds is the recast for COR if unmerited and if he's not got an XI roll in effect. 3 minutes on Aura steal I don't think is going to hurt. Aura steal will no doubt be useful, but doesn't render anybody useless, it's not as if it's significant enough to make THF overpowered in any way.

vs DRK 95 (my DRK...obviously)-
Next update, DRK is gonna get Absorb-Attri, which sounds like their very own aura-steal. I think THF and DRK can live side by side still, both jobs fulfill different roles and well, a lot of jobs share similar abilities anyway without stepping on each other's toes. Again COR gets its own Dispel, yet it isn't intruding on the Dispels of RDM and SCH nor does it intrude on Sleep or Repose by having Light Shot. It doesn't intrude on RNG by being able to WS on its gun either.

In summation, I don't think anybody's going to say, "I'm going to invite that THF because he can Aura steal every 3 minutes".

Despoil

Have you ever asked a thief to use this ability?
Have you ever known a thief to use this ability?

No and No. I go /RDM to land enfeebles if there isn't a RDM present, I think people expect anything RDM would be enfeebling the mob, though I don't see people ever ask for people to enfeeble, which is a shame because they still work on NMs. I don't know how effective despoil is, I can't say its ever been a necessity.



Questions:
How essential do you consider treasure hunter for most events you do?
How much do you allow thieves to increase drop rates?

I like to low man a lot of content with friends, meaning my parties don't have procs covered, so it could be a simple set up of THF, MNK, WHM or THF, DRK, BLM or even just THF and SCH so I consider TH to be essential as it's meant to increase your chances . We let THF increase drop rates as much as they can. At least 3 people I team up with love THF to pieces, so that's a bonus.

A THF should be there to help your get your booty, if we stopped a THF from helping us get more treasure then there'd be something wrong with us.

[Jar]

The issue is that SE told us a month ago that this would be overpowered for THF. None of us are upset that DRK is getting it. To me it makes sense but it means that SEs excuses about aurasteal are complete BS. People don't like being BSed.

I don't agree with this. The problem is more with the hate system than the JAs themselves. Separating the timers, making them work across party, and giving THF a hate dumping ability would put THFs hate control power right where it needs to be imo.

NIN and DNC both easily cap evasion and have much more survivability and damage capabilities. Then you have MNK with survivability and extreme damage. Most of this only applies inside abyssea. Outside on anything that matters THFs evasion amounts to very little and is not a justification for gimping any other aspect of the job. On top of that no one asked to do extreme damage on THF.

DRK ability will be easily resisted and has Elemental affinity meaning that anything that resists dark magic (quite a few things) will resist it

Hate inside of abyssea is Stagnate and hard to control because everyone has so much HP this messes with how enmity is deteriorated making it so everyone is always caped.


THF's EVA isnt something you all should play down so much you have a serous advantage with it.

[Nebo]

THF's EVA isnt something you all should play down so much you have a serous advantage with it.

Because hitting the evasion cap is hard for DNC or NIN? No. The cap is the cap. NIN and DNC can reach it very easily.

NIN also has the added bonus of native enfeebles and the ability to sub /dnc for self cures.

DNC/NIN also has much, much greater survivability tools than THF/anything.

Evasion is not an advantage for THF over these jobs in terms of survivability. Because that is the ONLY thing THF has in the survivability equation whereas NIN and DNC (and other jobs) have a lot more tools to survive than a THF does.

Add to that Aga's, AOEs that rip through our paper thin defense, TP moves that have inherant accuracy bonuses....THF is not at the top of any survivability list simply because of evasion.

[Xellith]

Hate inside of abyssea is Stagnate and hard to control because everyone has so much HP this messes with how enmity is deteriorated making it so everyone is always caped.

Not really true. While I do believe that HP plays a part in enmity (I believe SE said that once) - its not the main reason why hate gets capped. Hate gets capped with people performing actions and hate accumilating either quickly or over time. Hate on a target is not shared between all party members. Each member has their own hate. This means that if all PT members cap hate that the monster is going to bounce around.

Case and point:
Throw 6 THFs that dont suck at Simurgh. I GUARANTEE that it will bounce around from THF to THF every time one of them swings at it - even if they miss.

Once Hate is capped - it will slowly deteriorate. Swinging at it will cap this up once again. The amount of HP you have isnt really the determining factor in why people keep hate once they have it. Its part of the equation yes. But its not the key reason by a long stretch.

THF's EVA isnt something you all should play down so much you have a serous advantage with it.

[Greatguardian]

Max HP is part of the equation to determine how much CE is lost when taking damage. I think that might be what he's talking about. The higher your max HP, the less Enmity you lose per point of damage taken.

[Insaniac]

DRK ability will be easily resisted and has Elemental affinity meaning that anything that resists dark magic (quite a few things) will resist it. Even if you are right and it is easily resisted, which is a pretty wild assumption, you still get neathervoid every 5 minutes which makes it absorb 2 buffs making it instantly better than AS. Dunno why you are focusing so much on this anyway. No one is saying DRK shouldn't get this spell and if it's as bad as aura steal then I would fully support making it better. Something tells me though that it will be lightyears ahead of AS right out of the gate.

[Arcon]

A THF's evasion is superb, DNC can't come anywhere near it, NIN can occasionally, if they're sacrificing other things for it. Reaching cap on NQ mobs, maybe (including NQ NMs), anything above that is not easy to do. Evasion is the only thing THF has going for it right now, however, they can't put it to amazing use. Maybe inside Abyssea, but outside of Abyssea they can hardly use it to tank, because they do practically no damage, and thus have trouble keeping hate, at least on mobs worth mentioning.

[Karbuncle]

A THF's evasion is superb, DNC can't come anywhere near it, NIN can occasionally, if they're sacrificing other things for it. Reaching cap on NQ mobs, maybe (including NQ NMs), anything above that is not easy to do. Evasion is the only thing THF has going for it right now, however, they can't put it to amazing use. Maybe inside Abyssea, but outside of Abyssea they can hardly use it to tank, because they do practically no damage, and thus have trouble keeping hate, at least on mobs worth mentioning.

Not to mention evasion is their only Defense, and that don't sit well with Magic or Magical TP moves (even with MDT sets). Evasion tanking only gets you so far :X

That coupled with having literally no hate tools and poor damage output, that EVA isn't going to good use unless you're solo, in Abyssea, or simply evading AoE physical attacks :D

[Insaniac]

A THF's evasion is superb, DNC can't come anywhere near it, NIN can occasionally, if they're sacrificing other things for it. Reaching cap on NQ mobs, maybe (including NQ NMs), anything above that is not easy to do. Evasion is the only thing THF has going for it right now, however, they can't put it to amazing use. Maybe inside Abyssea, but outside of Abyssea they can hardly use it to tank, because they do practically no damage, and thus have trouble keeping hate, at least on mobs worth mentioning.I really don't get where this is coming from. DNC has 20 less evasion skill and 12 less evasion from traits. 1 evasion dagger and a torero torque makes up for this and then you have fan dance so when you do get hit you take very little damage. NIN only has 7 less skill and no evasion bonus (if not subbing dnc or thf) but then you add Yonin which I believe is assumed to be +30 evasion, extra shadows and a magian katana and again you're on the same level. On any NM that is easy enough to evasion tank, a NIN and DNC can reach evasion cap almost as easily as THF by only making minor gear sacrifices. Even if THF has a higher potential it doesn't matter once evasion is capped which NIN and DNC can both easily do on pretty much any NM that any of them would be tanking. NIN technically can evade more than a THF if you count shadows as evading an attack.

Don't get me wrong. I think our evasion is lovely but it's not really a trait exclusive to THF. Even PUP can cap pretty easily on a lot of stuff and they have a permanent, semi-retarded, WHM that they get to duo with.

[Karbuncle]

PUP Actually has higher EVA than DNC, PUP has second best EVA in the game after Traits.

PUP Gets EVA bonus IV, which is 13 over III, and PUP has B EVA, DNC has B+, a difference of (As of level 90) 6. So PUP has roughly ~8 EVA on DNC (since skill over a certain point for EVA works like acc/atk and only gives 0.9)

So when you take into account a WHM pup with Cure VI, Even PUP has more survivability, solo, than a THF. So In terms of raw survival, NIN, DNC, and PUP (eva jobs) have huge advantages over THF. Pure EVA isn't as grat as ya'll make it seem.

Also to clarify:
NIN has Debuffs, and can sub DNC without losing shadows, and gain EVA traiits
DNC has All that DNC jazz, and can sub NIN for shadows
PUP has WHM Frame for a slew of things

[Insaniac]

I was not aware of pup getting EB5. Throw some Usukane on that b!tch and it's good to go. And dont forget that those Automatons toss enfeebs too.

[Laphine]

isn't it EB4? 5 is what THF probably has. If another job also gets the highest rank on this JA more rage to come lol. And DNC also has EB4 and closed position to boot.

[Karbuncle]

isn't it EB4? 5 is what THF probably has. If another job also gets the highest rank on this JA more rage to come lol. And DNC also has EB4 and closed position to boot.

THF has VI, We had V at 70.

Between 80~ or so PUP got V and we got VI

[Laphine]

we had 4 at 70 o.o

[Karbuncle]

I'll be damned, You are correct. I had to double check myself on Wiki.

That being said, Aside from the Number, everything in my post above is correct, in terms of EVA Values and what not, Just got the Trait Number wrong.

[Insaniac]

Except that DNC has slightly better evasion than PUP.

[Karbuncle]

Except that DNC has slightly better evasion than PUP.

are you speaking about some Ability or merit? PUP still has better Evasion that DNC After Evasion Bonus is considered.


PUP Gets EVA bonus IV, which is 13 over III, and PUP has B EVA, DNC has B+, a difference of (As of level 90) 6

that is still accurate. One is 335EVA(PUP) and DNC is 341, After Evasion Bonus job traits, PUP comes out roughly 7 Evasion ahead.

Again, Unless you're speaking about some other Merit ability o.o?

Edit: Closed Position, I guess if they merit that ~3 times they come out ahead if they're tanking.

[Atomic_Skull]

DNC gets Assassin's Charge +1 and mini Sneak Attack.

PUP gets Evasion Bonus 1-4

DRK is getting Aura Steal +1

RNG is getting Trick Attack +1


THF should be given Attack Bonus 1-5 and Accuracy Bonus 1-3 to compensate for those jobs taking their stuff.

[Phen]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone so far!

I do want people to consider more non-abyssea responses because we area headed away from atmas and buffs to fill out things. With RR and Apoc a Thief plays considerably different than it does outside.

Oh also I encourage some other jobs to do this, its incredibly informative the voidwatch notes have been really interesting.


oh:


Offtopic, a thf named Phen, why is that so familiar to me o.o Are you the same phen I always see in artico's art? lol
Thats me. Artico is my wife actually.

[Phafi]

Q-How often do you use a thief in alliance strategies specifically to manage hate?
A-Not anymore as people can recap their enmity in 1-2 weaponskills should they need to
Q-How well do they function when managing hate?
A-Not as well as when Collaborator/Accomplice were added, it is not "needed" for most fights at all anymore as say, if a BLM pulled hate, a melee usually is able to swing at the mob to recap their enmity before the monster even gets out of attack range.

Q-Do you think that lowering the timer to 2-3 minutes would infringe on your job?
A-I do not think that this would drastically alter the job in any manner, maybe this could be tried on the test server that is opening and could be monitored there and have some players fool around with this?
Q-Have you ever relied on a thief to use this ability?
A-Nope.

Q-Have you ever asked a thief to use this ability?
A-I forget thief has this ability most of the time.
Q-Have you ever known a thief to use this ability?
A-Maybe
Ex: <Phaffi> Hey, have you ever used despoil on something useful? NMs?
<Thief> No, oh god no, ???? no.
<Thief> I don't even think steal is useful on NMs

Q-How essential do you consider treasure hunter for most events you do?
A-Even with a treasure hunter, you can still have a streak of bad luck and walk out with nothing more than you would have without a thief.
Q-How much do you allow thieves to increase drop rates?
A-Waste my valuable Visitant Status waiting on something, that still ends up coming down to luck to increase when we can just pop the NM again right after? Seems pretty silly.

[Insaniac]

are you speaking about some Ability or merit? PUP still has better Evasion that DNC After Evasion Bonus is considered.



that is still accurate. One is 335EVA(PUP) and DNC is 341, After Evasion Bonus job traits, PUP comes out roughly 7 Evasion ahead.

Again, Unless you're speaking about some other Merit ability o.o?

Edit: Closed Position, I guess if they merit that ~3 times they come out ahead if they're tanking.It's not on wiki but DNC supposedly gets EB4 around level 90 so with their slightly higher skill they beat out pup by a little.

[Insaniac]

Waste my valuable Visitant Status waiting on something, that still ends up coming down to luck to increase when we can just pop the NM again right after? Seems pretty silly. Praise Jeebus.

[Yugl]

Questions:
How often do you use a thief in alliance strategies specifically to manage hate?
How well do they function when managing hate?

I know I've used Collab/Accomp extensively in certain situations. I don't recall which, but that's probably because I'm recalling NM specific circumstances. Perhaps hate reset mobs or when the THF should be tanking I think.


Aura Steal/Steal
Questions:
Do you think that lowering the timer to 2-3 minutes would infringe on your job?
Have you ever relied on a thief to use this ability?

Only to the extent that my only role is dispelling. Given the choice, TH+Dispel > Solely dispelling. I have requested that the THF use Aura Steal to take Shinryu's Regain, but relied is excessive. That said, there's very little that you can say, with certainty, you rely upon during battle. For instance, a MNK-WHM-BRD battling Pantokrator certainly wouldn't rely on the BRD in any urgent sense given that MNK and WHM can duo the NM comfortably.


Despoil
Questions:
Have you ever asked a thief to use this ability?
Have you ever known a thief to use this ability?

No and no.



Treasure Hunter
Questions:
How essential do you consider treasure hunter for most events you do?
How much do you allow thieves to increase drop rates?

I would consider TH essential for any event where TH affects the drop rate of important items. This includes farming Empyrean weapons, certain blue!! items such as Tiara, and old content. I allow the THF to be the near-sole DD on the mob depending on the NM and time constraints. For example, against ground NMs, I will allow a THF to be the sole DD insofar as it does not compromise victory. In abyssea, time taken to kill the NM deters from making another pop, so if I plan to make a new pop relatively soon (Empyrean Weapons, VNMs, AF+1/2 items), then I will probably wait for roughly TH9 or so. For other NMs where I don't plan on making second pop soon (Pantokrator), I'll allow more time to build TH.

[Rezeak]

Questions:
How often do you use a thief in alliance strategies specifically to manage hate?
How well do they function when managing hate?
Not much since hate cap makes things a joke
Only hate control i've seen that's useful is the hate stealing from RNG & SCH & BLM

Questions: (aura steal)
Do you think that lowering the timer to 2-3 minutes would infringe on your job?
Have you ever relied on a thief to use this ability?
For aura steal if it was 1 min it wouldn't hurt anyone i'm sure i mean RDMs can dispel every like 10 secs lol not to mention the buffs stole arn't gonna turn THF into a god


Questions: (Despoil)
Have you ever asked a thief to use this ability?
Have you ever known a thief to use this ability?
Relying on something unrelible is dumb lol

How essential do you consider treasure hunter for most events you do?
How much do you allow thieves to increase drop rates?
Extremely in stuff outside abyssea if it takes days to farm a pop then why would you say no to better chances
Even in abyssea it's noticeable tho will speed things upeither way we try to never leave jueno without one.


How i feel about thfs TH makes them essential the hate system atm is messed up which imo screws with THFs alot honestly if ya gave THF a way for Tanks to evade hate resets then this would make up alot for the hate system failings.
and aura steal being overpowered is BS lol mob can recast buffs and you can't remove the insane buffs from mobs anyway.