A Simple Request from Thieves: An upgrade to Thief's Knife.

[Karbuncle]

Hello Thieves, Community Reps, GMs called in to break up the debate.

Basically, I'll keep this Simple as you guys request. Might be able to allow us to upgrade Thief's Knife through Synergy?

It doesnt need to be much of fancy, But it would be a godsend for Thief's in events such as Dynamis and Limbus, or in events where TH is required for multiple enemies in quick succession, where Switching out the weapon is not an option.

THF already takes a hit in Damage, A boost to this dagger should be well within balance specification i hope, Just as a basic Example... Currently Thief's Knife is as follows:

DMG:28 Delay:194
Treasure Hunter +1

Through Synergy (Recipe can be whatever you want so long as its reasonable please :|), You could add something like...

1 of:
DMG:+5~12 (Max: D:40)
1 of :
Delay:-10-18 (Max: D:176)
1 of:
DEX+1~5
AGI+1~5
Accuracy +1~5
Attack +1~5
Evasion +1~5

Which would basically just upgrade it to be on part with level 90~95+ Weaponry. (And keep it not horrible by 99).

Edit: Or it could be a simple Magian Trial upgrade. To level 90 with stats like:

(90)
DMG:38 Delay:180 DEX+2 Attack+2
Treasure Hunter +1

(95)
DMG:40 Delay:176 DEX+3 Attack+5
Treasure Hunter +1

(99)
DMG:41 Delay:175 DEX+5 Attack+5
Treasure Hunter +2

This wouldn't make it the best weaponry, simply allow it to keep up with other weapons as we progress to the 99 cap. I feel Synergy would be a simpler route, but if you made it through magian trial, i would not object.

and yes ,We would be fine with it being "tough" to obtain if it meant you could consider it

I hope you think this can be worked out. Thank you

Edit: Suggestion from Nynja


regarding "overpowered lv70 knives", I dont tihnk it would be difficult to add a level restriction, like so
Thief's knife RARE EX
(Dagger) All Races
DMG: 28 Delay: 194
"Treasure Hunter" +1
Lv. 90: DMG+10 Delay-15 Triple Attack +3
Lv. 70 THF

Up the weapon level and give it a newer name (TK+1?), no big deal. Theres already armor restrictions preventing certain gear to be equipped (novennial stuff, cloaks and headwear, attempting to DW without a main weapon), preventing both TK's to be equipped should be easy.

Magian trials would work as well, since it would keep all TK's equal. I dont think the level really matters since I doubt any thf would sync down to farm stuff?

Edit2: A Simpler, More elegant Solution. By who else but me?


3) Add a Weapon at level 95+ With "Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter +1" thats only active if not Wielding a Thief's Knife. Like...

Raider's Knife
DMG:42 Delay:176
DEX+3 Attack+3
Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter +1

A Good DMG/Delay Weapon with fluff stats, and a latent effect that only works if you dont wield a Theif's Knife. It solves every problem without the need to upgrade a weapon

Edit3: Another More Simple than the above Simple Solution! *Hint hint Reps: This is the one we all like the best*


Add a Piece of ARMOR (Visible or not, Something other than weapon) That has something like...:

Thief's Band
(ring)
Fluffstat(Or not)
Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter +1
Lv.90~+?

Latent Active when Thief's Knife is not equipped. This removes the need to wear a weapon that will nerf us, and will be as convenient as Gloves/Feet currently are (Easily equipped/removed without hurting out DPS so badly)

[Lordscyon]

Treasure Hunter +1 trial dagger wouldnt be a bad idea ^^
Or the Synergy part is not a bad idea anything that is a bonus and not a nerf i support

[Economizer]

Please tell me I wasn't the first person to think of this. >.>

Edit: To avoid a double post, here are some thoughts about the dagger:

If the thing can be Synergized, some random pool augments of triple attack rate, or even a harder to find item recipe for such traits would be a good start.

More importantly, the thing should be sendable to mules, for thieves that want to go farm another knife to sell, since the knife itself is rare.

[Karbuncle]

Hoping they just upgrade the Physical Thief's Knife!

If they gave us a second dagger, then we'd just have to dual wield the two, making it worse, if they upgraded Thief's Knife, it would eliminate the problem entirely :)

Thank you for your support.


Please tell me I wasn't the first person to think of this. >.>

There was discussion about it a long time ago but it was lost in spam of the early days of these forums. It needs to be brought up again LoL.

[Economizer]

Hoping they just upgrade the Physical Thief's Knife

The name might have to be kept the same in order for the rare tag to keep working, so it might stay a "Thief's Knife" or whatever it is called, even to level 90.

[SpankWustler]

A more "SE-Style" update would be to just remove Treasure Hunter from Thief's Knife so a Thief will feel free to use other options. Which, now that I think about it, would accomplish almost exactly the same thing and result in almost exactly the same drop rate.

[Karbuncle]

The name might have to be kept the same in order for the rare tag to keep working, so it might stay a "Thief's Knife" or whatever it is called, even to level 90.

Yah, thats what i want.

[FrankReynolds]

The treasure hunter testing already proves that we don't even need this knife. The coders cant figure out how to make any of thief's other JAs work right, don't distract them. :P

[Arcon]

Don't know if it's just me, but I'd prefer a new TH dagger over an upgraded Thief's Knife. Partly because of the looks, I've been carrying one around for ages. But also because the Thief's Knife is just a regular item, just happens to be one special stat that's getting a boost. I don't see why we should make an exception just for that. Also, I'm not the biggest fan of Synergy, same as most people.

I'd prefer much if it was an NM drop, triggered spawn would be nice, but other version would work too.

[Karbuncle]

Don't know if it's just me, but I'd prefer a new TH dagger over an upgraded Thief's Knife. Partly because of the looks, I've been carrying one around for ages. But also because the Thief's Knife is just a regular item, just happens to be one special stat that's getting a boost. I don't see why we should make an exception just for that. Also, I'm not the biggest fan of Synergy, same as most people.

I'd prefer much if it was an NM drop, triggered spawn would be nice, but other version would work too.

Not that i dont agree.

That would not solve the problem of THF's knife being forced in our hands, It would just be a matter of Mainhand the new one and offhand THFs Knife.

My idea was to upgrade the knife to be acceptable since its pretty much forced in our hand for most events.

[Economizer]

I'd prefer much if it was an NM drop, triggered spawn would be nice, but other version would work too.

It could be a quest to upgrade, with a different skin on the knife (assuming this is possible) after you upgrade it via some NM drop.

The main issue is the whole "another dagger with TH = you still have to use Thief's Knife" thing.

[Atomic_Skull]

No not Synergy. Lets bring back the rarity and badge of honor status that used to be associated with the THF's knife.

Add a BCNM to Sacraficial Chamber that uses a THF's knife as the entry fee. This BCNM is high level difficult fight against all four Sozus. Upon winning the fight the BCNM will drop a Theif's Knife with one of the following augments and drop rates.

90% drop DMG+8 Delay -18

10% drop: DMG+9 Delay -25

2% drop: DMG+10 Delay -32 Treasure Hunter+1

0.5% drop: DMG+11 Delay-44 Treasure Hunter+2

An augmented Thief's Knife cannot be reused to enter the BCNM.

[Arcon]

That would not solve the problem of THF's knife being forced in our hands, It would just be a matter of Mainhand the new one and offhand THFs Knife.


The main issue is the whole "another dagger with TH = you still have to use Thief's Knife" thing.

Same issue with Synergy/ToM. You could still have the base weapon and the upgraded weapon. You can do it now too, why would it be different for the Thief's Knife?

For all I care, they can remove the current Thief's Knife from the game as well. Although honestly, I don't have quite that much of a problem with it, it's an acceptable trade off imo.

[Economizer]

why would it be different for the Thief's Knife?

The name of the item does not change, only the level will. Meaning that you can't have two of the Thief's Knife even if you augment one. With ToM there aren't a lot of examples of same named items with different augments, but they do exist, and you can't have more then one of them at a time.

Basically, augmenting the knife itself and not changing the name would mean that the rare tag is preserved, and more importantly, you don't end up having to dual two of these things just to max out possible TH gear.

Either Trials of the Magians or Synergy will accomplish this in a reasonable manner.

[Insaniac]

No not Synergy. Lets bring back the rarity and badge of honor status that used to be associated with the THF's knife.

Add a BCNM to Sacraficial Chamber that uses a THF's knife as the entry fee. This BCNM is high level difficult fight against all four Sozus. Upon winning the fight the BCNM will drop a Theif's Knife with one of the following augments and drop rates.

90% drop DMG+8 Delay -18

10% drop: DMG+9 Delay -25

2% drop: DMG+10 Delay -32 Treasure Hunter+1

0.5% drop: DMG+11 Delay-44 Treasure Hunter+2

An augmented Thief's Knife cannot be reused to enter the BCNM.
I would burn down buildings. Not even kidding. I spent 9 months camping my Thief's knife every day and it never dropped. Try to put me through something like that again and I will rip faces. Synergy or magian trial or gtfo.

[Insaniac]

Thinking about this a bit more I think the problem would be that you could augment the knife and still use it on your level 70 thf and if you increase the level via magian trials they would be different item IDs and you would be able to DW them.

It would have to be a new dagger with the stipulation "When thief's knife is not equipped: TH+1" kind of like an anti-set bonus or "Cannot equip thief's knife". I would be fine with this since I am also sick of the booorrrrring TK model.

[Laphine]

You know what...maybe have the synergy materials to be gotten out of steal?! 2 birds 1 stone i say lol

[Karbuncle]

Thinking about this a bit more I think the problem would be that you could augment the knife and still use it on your level 70 thf and if you increase the level via magian trials they would be different item IDs and you would be able to DW them.

It would have to be a new dagger with the stipulation "When thief's knife is not equipped: TH+1" kind of like an anti-set bonus or "Cannot equip thief's knife". I would be fine with this since I am also sick of the booorrrrring TK model.

Not so sure, the Oa2x Magian weapons are similar (R), and you cannot own two, and as far as i know, You can't own a Mandau(85) and Mandau(90) or so on. Upgrading Thief's Knife to 90~95 wouldn't allow you to buy another, if anything, The safest and easiest route for SE is Synergy.

Some people hate it, but thats the easiest way to go about it, and the most likely way we'll ever see a buff.

[FrankReynolds]

I personally hate synergy. I have already leveled enough crafts. they should just make the effect work as long as you posses the POS dagger in your current inventory. There are already plenty of daggers to upgrade.

Or, maybe they could add another tier of TH trait and make it negate the effects of the dagger all together. for instance maybe make a maximum base TH that you can start with.

Or better yet, give every job a treasure hunter weapon that only stacks with Thief mains treasure hunter. Let's see how many wars like swapping out ukon for TH every mob. Then lets all agree that it was a cruel joke and be done with it.

[Insaniac]

Not so sure, the Oa2x Magian weapons are similar (R), and you cannot own two, and as far as i know, You can't own a Mandau(85) and Mandau(90) or so on. Upgrading Thief's Knife to 90~95 wouldn't allow you to buy another, if anything, The safest and easiest route for SE is Synergy.

Some people hate it, but thats the easiest way to go about it, and the most likely way we'll ever see a buff. None of the synergy augments increase the level of the item without changing it into an entirely new item. I know SE doesn't want level 70 THF running around with a 40+ damage augmented TK. It would have to be a different dagger with a stipulation of mutual exclusivity with TK. Could be a magian trial, a synth using TK, or just a new dagger entirely.

[Karbuncle]

and if you increase the level via magian trials they would be different item IDs and you would be able to DW them.

This is what i was talking about, It seems here you're saying "If you level it through Magian to 95, You could own the 95 and the 70 version" Which i believe is untrue, as I dont believe you can dual wield Mandaus or Kikoku's, even if they're different levels.

I can't prove it, But i was under the impression this way.

[Economizer]

The easiest way to prove this is to augment something like a Genbu's Shield, and then try to lot another one. I've been under the impression that you can't, considering being able to do something like this would be fairly big news.

[Glamdring]

can't find the thread anymore, but I thought they said a thf knife upgrade was in the works. They said the same thing about my Raja's ring /em checks ring... ok, they don't seem to have gotten around to it yet.

[Arcon]

This is what i was talking about, It seems here you're saying "If you level it through Magian to 95, You could own the 95 and the 70 version" Which i believe is untrue, as I dont believe you can dual wield Mandaus or Kikoku's, even if they're different levels.

I can't prove it, But i was under the impression this way.

Honestly, I didn't consider that. But I know for a fact that you can dual wield certain ToM items, even if they're exactly the same (I think all of the elemental weapons). I don't know what it would be like for Thief's Knife, I'm still not a fan though. As I said, I don't think the trade off is that bad.

[Karbuncle]

Honestly, I didn't consider that. But I know for a fact that you can dual wield certain ToM items, even if they're exactly the same (I think all of the elemental weapons). I don't know what it would be like for Thief's Knife, I'm still not a fan though. As I said, I don't think the trade off is that bad.

The elemental Weapons don't have (R) Tags :3

[Vold]

The easiest way to prove this is to augment something like a Genbu's Shield, and then try to lot another one. I've been under the impression that you can't, considering being able to do something like this would be fairly big news.
From personal experience, you can't get another. If the item is rare, you can't hold but just the one. Ever. Even with augments.

It's terribly depressing to see Byakko's Haidate after haidate dropping to the ground :x

[Atomic_Skull]

I would burn down buildings. Not even kidding. I spent 9 months camping my Thief's knife every day and it never dropped. Try to put me through something like that again and I will rip faces. Synergy or magian trial or gtfo.

Nobody is forcing you to go for the HQ3 drop. You would always get a very good low delay offhand dagger with Treasure Hunter on it.

If it's Synergy it's going to be random too, and probably a lot harder to get a good mix of stats than with this system. The difference here is that instead of a random mix of stats and spamming the furnace in Port Jeuno all day you get 4 predetermined sets of augments in exchange for a difficult BCNM and the risk of loosing a Thief's Knife if you fail. They could also have a "heroic" version of the BCNM that trades off higher difficulty in exchange for a higher HQ drop rate. (by hard I mean really, truly difficult with a high risk of loosing, not just "slightly harder than easy")

Another example:

Normal BCNM

70% drop DMG+8 Delay -18

25% drop: DMG+9 Delay -25

5% drop: DMG+10 Delay -32 Treasure Hunter+1


"Heroic" BCNM

50% drop DMG+8 Delay -18

30% drop: DMG+9 Delay -25

15% drop: DMG+10 Delay -32 Treasure Hunter+1

5% DMG+10 Delay -44 Treasure Hunter+2

[Atomic_Skull]

They should make Treasure Hunter+ work like Movement Speed+, it should cap at the highest value equipped. No more gimping ourselves with useless equipment just because it has TH+ on it. We could just swap in the AF3+2 feet once and be done with it.

[noodles355]

The easiest way to prove this is to augment something like a Genbu's Shield, and then try to lot another one. I've been under the impression that you can't, considering being able to do something like this would be fairly big news.Mandau, Mandau(80), Mandau(85) and Mandau(90) are separate weapons with separate IDs (iirc) and most importantly: no augmentations. Thats the difference between augmented stuff. It's the same item with the same ID and just extra stuff thrown on top. OAT and OA2-4 weapons are the same. The base item is the one base item with one base item ID and the OAT stuff is an augment. Mandau80 isn't an augment of Mandau75, it's a separate weapon. Not saying it would be dual-wieldable with lower level mandau. I don't think anyone is daft enough to try and upgrade a 2nd Mandau to find out. However, you could try with a second Twatstar. If you have an 85 Twatstar and try to upgrade a 2nd one to Lv80 and it says no it's no big deal as you can use the glavoid shells for an Ukon.

[SpankWustler]

I want to say that someone (Byrth, maybe?) tried to make a second Twashtar for his off-hand and the moogle wouldn't allow him to torture himself like that.

Although, I think it has to do with the quest and not the item IDs, since the moogle stopped him cold before he could even slap a certain trial on the would-be Twashtar.

Of course, it's equally possible that I dreamed this after consuming a mixed drink made with prescription decongestants and over-the-counter malt liquor. I can't find the post about it or even remember where I would have seen it.

Edit: To whom it may interest, the drink relieved me of sinus congestion and several other worldly concerns. It tastes pretty much like you'd imagine given the components, however, so I would not recommend it.

[FrankReynolds]

Add a BCNM to Sacraficial Chamber that uses a THF's knife as the entry fee. This BCNM is high level difficult fight against all four Sozus. Upon winning the fight the BCNM will drop a Theif's Knife with one of the following augments and drop rates.

An augmented Thief's Knife cannot be reused to enter the BCNM.

SO make everyone go camp the Tonberry NM again? Maybe if you could reuse the dagger for entry, but having people try to get like 20 of these to make the perfect dagger would ruin it for even the guys that just want to try once. I mean... I know everyone wouldnt try for the perfect dagger, but they still have to camp against the guy who is trying for it.

[Babekeke]

SO make everyone go camp the Tonberry NM again? Maybe if you could reuse the dagger for entry, but having people try to get like 20 of these to make the perfect dagger would ruin it for even the guys that just want to try once. I mean... I know everyone wouldnt try for the perfect dagger, but they still have to camp against the guy who is trying for it.

I'm up for anything that adds a little value to thief's knife again. Not to mention that if you're not aware, Sozu Rogberry is now a forced spawn, and knife is a 100% drop. If this was implemented, the respawn time on the ??? used to pop Sozu might need to be a lower repop than the current 15 mins, nothing more.

[Karbuncle]

I understand the idea of Thief's Knife becoming a status symbol again like it was before the Sozu fix.. But that isn't really my plan. I don't want a 2.5% Chance at getting a dagger that doesn't suck. The idea was to upgrade the Thief's Knife to be acceptable at level ~90+ in terms of damage, since a THF is forced to wear it, which isn't a problem in long battles because you can hit > remove it, But for short battles in rapid succession, it becomes one.

That aside, I don't care about someones damaged E-peen. The concept is, again, to make it a realistic goal for all Thieves. Not to make it mind-numbingly difficult and without reason. Camping Sozu ??? again against the 500 other Thieves on your server and trying to get a pop from those same 500 people would be torture and unacceptable.

I don't want a system where you get sh*t 75% of the time as a consolation prize for winning, and being forced to hit the shark pit again in order to get a more acceptable knife.

The Idea of the upgrade itself is decent (Get item > Enter Solo BCNM > win = Reward) but the Reward Distribution and Item required needs to be something that isn't hinged on a 2% Drop rate off of 5 mobs in 2 zones that have 16 minute repops for an entire Servers population of Thieves.

What that may be i'm not sure, Give me about an hour and I'll help think of something acceptable for all parties.

[Babekeke]

Maybe if the minimum augment stats on it from such a BCNM, were DMG +15, then other stats were simply a bonus. This could mean that initially, you only have to wait for the lag to enter the BCNM with your initial knife. Only the people wanting to enlarge their E-Peen would keep trying to get the extra +3 DMG or +2 DEX or whatever it had to offer, and only they would have to keep going back into the 'shark pit' to get pop item/camp the ???.

Sounds fair to me

[Alaik]

I agree with Spank on the first page. Remove TH+ weapons entirely.

[Economizer]

What that may be i'm not sure, Give me about an hour and I'll help think of something acceptable for all parties.

Anything that doesn't allow someone to use one Thief's Knife and manage - through an amount of work that does not use more Thief's Knifes - to be able to eventually get the best augments possible, is unacceptable.

The Thief's Knife is an item that has actually managed to hold an incredible amount of value over the years and screwing with the economy on this item to fuel someone's ego would only damage the game.

Either Magian or Synergy trials is fine. Obviously, I prefer Magian trials because they reward effort over luck, but some convoluted system where you farm an item, synergize it into a luck based number of BCNM fight items, then do the fight, get a reward that upgrades the Thief's Knife via Magian trials into a higher and higher damage weapon would still be much better game play then destroying Thief's Knifes to fuel someone's petty and childish ego.

Edit: Also, look at how many people actually like the idea of doing the suggested idea of knife destroying BCNMs vs how many people hate the idea. I think the only reason we are even discussing it still is because people hate the idea so much that they have to talk about how horrible it is in order to make sure that even the slightest risk of this horrible idea ever being implemented never comes to pass.

[noodles355]

The problem with the whole idea is that there is no justification for upgrading TK unless you introduce a system to upgrade any weapon. TK is just a weapon. A weapon that we're sadly still forced to use, but still just an ordinary weapon. If you were going to upgrade that then people would start shouting to have all their old 75 weapons upgradeable.

[Babekeke]

people would start shouting to have all their old 75 weapons upgradeable.

Starting with Hagun, no doubt

[noodles355]

Well you can make Hagun through trials of the magian.

[Insaniac]

It's a special case. No other DD is still forced to use a level 70 weapon. Their old weapons were obsolete'd by new better weapons. Anyone who saw Thief's knife was getting an upgrade and was like "I WANT MAH DESTOYORZ UPGRAEDED" probably actually talks like that.

EDIT: I just wanna repeat that I would join the taliban and cut peoples heads off if they implemented anything even close to that BC idea.

[Karbuncle]

It's a special case. No other DD is still forced to use a level 70 weapon. Their old weapons were obsolete'd by new better weapons. Anyone who saw Thief's knife was getting an upgrade and was like "I WANT MAH DESTOYORZ UPGRAEDED" probably actually talks like that.

EDIT: I just wanna repeat that I would join the taliban and cut peoples heads off if they implemented anything even close to that BC idea.

I Mirror this sentiment.

The problem with comparing it to other ~70 Weapons is no other DD-job is forced to melee in an outdated weapon because it helps the job, all of them have gotten upgrades to those weapons in generally every field. There is not a single other comparison. This weapon is forced in our hands rather we like it or not. Unless they impose a Treasure Hunter Limit from Equipment of +1/+2 (I.E hands + Feet, so weapon is free) There is no other solution outside of upgrading it to make it useful enough. (note i said Solution: ignoring it is not a solution <_>)

If you're joining us now, I'm not asking for it to become god of weapons, Only that its more powerful than it is now. I.e Respectable. Any intelligent Thief who's not trying to play devil's advocate will tell you that they feel Thief's Knife needs an upgrade if we're going to be forced to continue to use it.

Truthfully, I have a few options)

1) Upgrade Thief's Knife. Via Synergy, or Trial of the Magians, or some other Quest (perhaps a tie in to the end of the THF AF quests). Make it difficult if you have too, but try not to make it involve camping a new NM or something similar. I.E if you're going to make it "Get xxx drop" have "xxx drop" drop from multiple enemies, Lots of them. Preferably not in dungeons.

2) Create a new level 90 Weapon that shares a name with Thief's Knife, allowing you to only hold/own one (is it possible?)

3) Impose a +TH Cap from gear to +1 or +2.

----------------

I like options 1/2, Option 3 is a last resort.

Edit: As mentioned before, Zoraal Ja's Axe (Lvl70 Reward+10%) is the closest comparison i can think of when it comes to an outdated weapon being useful, But its not so much forced in their hands, more of preference.

[Laphine]

i liked a sugestion that went in the general manifesto thread some time ago (i think). Someone thought of a trait for war that it would not lose tp when swapping weapons. We could just extend this to everyone, really. This would open some new cool gameplay tactics, and it certainly fixes the TK curse.

Another thing i just thought of lol: make it so we don't need to equip TH+ shit to get the effect. Could maybe make it so we get the boosts while we have the items in our bag. Insta fix~

[Nynja]

1-to hell with doing a BCM for a .25% chance at getting drop, gfy.

2-Thief's knife is a 100% drop, but if you tried to farm the damn pop item for Sozu, you'll quickly realize it is not 100% drop.

3-Synergy isnt as bad as you're making it out to be...it could follow suit to how all the abjus and sky gear gets upgraded. Trade Knife + X item, attempt synergy, get result. If you dont like the result, you trade that knife + X item, and you try again.

4-regarding "overpowered lv70 knives", I dont tihnk it would be difficult to add a level restriction, like so
Thief's knife RARE EX
(Dagger) All Races
DMG: 28 Delay: 194
"Treasure Hunter" +1
Lv. 90: DMG+10 Delay-15 Triple Attack +3
Lv. 70 THF

Up the weapon level and give it a newer name (TK+1?), no big deal. Theres already armor restrictions preventing certain gear to be equipped (novennial stuff, cloaks and headwear, attempting to DW without a main weapon), preventing both TK's to be equipped should be easy.

Magian trials would work as well, since it would keep all TK's equal. I dont think the level really matters since I doubt any thf would sync down to farm stuff?

[Nynja]

i liked a sugestion that went in the general manifesto thread some time ago (i think). Someone thought of a trait for war that it would not lose tp when swapping weapons.

Yeah I rememeber that post and the poster got laughed off the boards...I believe it was Kingfury...

[noodles355]

My best weapon for my Lv90 Cor is Lv51. Can I get an upgrade to my Vulcan's Staff as well then?

[Karbuncle]

No one's forcing you to use Thief Knife.

You join any decent LS your butt is going to be required to hit everything with your max TH, or you'll be replaced with someone who can/has higher TH. So yes, If you want to play THF in a LS Environment, You're going to be forced to wear that weapon, or you'll be replaced.

so if you don't want to be "Forced to wear it", its do everything alone, or switch jobs, Both i don't feel acceptable.

So i get it, you don't agree with the idea, thats great, but you've said your piece, you've voiced your opinion, and i respect that, Now you're just causing unnecessary trouble. So can you kindly not derail this thread further?

Thank you for understanding. If you actually have something to contribute, feel free to continue posting.

Edit: You edited your post, I feel I'll keep this here though.

Edit2: Fixed stuff, And wanted to say, I like your idea Nynja, Very much so. I'll add it to the OP.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Tell me whats so bad about using your treasure hunter set for the first few hits and then switching to tp gear, so you lose a lil tp its no biggie thf gets mad tp from triple attack and double attack gear/traits. Really I dont see what the issue is. When farming in abyssea i dont even switch gear unless on a nm because they die so fast with the atmas i have equiped, and outside abyssea its almost the same unless its a NM and guess what im not loosing sleep over he 30tp i waste when i change to tp gear from treasure hunter after the first few hits.

[Karbuncle]

Tell me whats so bad about using your treasure hunter set for the first few hits and then switching to tp gear, so you lose a lil tp its no biggie thf gets mad tp from triple attack and double attack gear/traits. Really I dont see what the issue is. When farming in abyssea i dont even switch gear unless on a nm because they die so fast with the atmas i have equiped, and outside abyssea its almost the same unless its a NM and guess what im not loosing sleep over he 30tp i waste when i change to tp gear from treasure hunter after the first few hits.

If you don't know why losing 10~90 TP just to switch weapons, and you don't know how significantly that impacts your damage, let alone how significantly using a THF's knife impacts your damage, I cannot help you or explain it well enough, thusly i will no try.

However do understand, Every THF hear realizes, on longer fights, You can easily hit a Mob and put on full TH, then take the Knife off, the problem is Farming in places like Dynamis or Limbus where every single mob you'll want your fullest TH on, and switching on/off the knife before every kill/fight is where a problem comes in.

[noodles355]

Yes, I removed forced to wear it comment after reading a previous post of yours.

And I've said my piece? Derailing? How is it derailing if i provide a counter argument, or reasoning as to why this wont happen? Did I ever say "I don't want it to be upgradeable"? Please quote me where I said I disagree with upgrading it and I dont want it upgraded.

What's that? You can't find it? Mayhaps it's because I didn't write it. Good job on making an incorrect assumption through failing to read. I said it wont happen (not that I don't want it to) because other jobs will ask for other lower weapons to be upgradeable.

What about my Cor's Vulcan's Staff or Joyeuse or Mkris? When commenting on my previous post you just so happened to miss that out. It's awesome to debate a retracted point that has already been discussed but ignore the main reason of the post.

[Karbuncle]

And I've said my piece? Derailing? How is it derailing if i provide a counter argument, or reasoning as to why this wont happen?

1) Is how you go about "Providing the counter argument" sarcasm and abrasiveness/rude posts. You're making negative tones, rather you see it or not. Your methods are the problem not your message. Surely you see this.

2) Theres a difference between "I want my x weapon to be upgraded, Even though theres already upgrades to it" and "This weapon is gimp and theres no way to replace it, can we upgrade it".


Did I ever say "I don't want it to be upgradeable"? Please quote me where I said I disagree with upgrading it and I dont want it upgraded.

Arguing against something you want, whats your angle? Why be the negative Nancy of the thread? We know what we're asking is a longshot, but we also feels its plausible.


What's that? You can't find it? Mayhaps it's because I didn't write it. Good job on making an incorrect assumption through failing to read.

I'm actually pretty happy You said this, this is the rude abrasiveness Fire-starting BS i was talking about when i asked you not to derail, thanks for saving me the trouble of digging up examples, As you just made one in this very post.



I said it wont happen

K, You said what you wanted too. At this points its not a counter argument to the OP, its you making angry posts because i offended you.

This is not a productive area of discussion, Nothing will come of this. Surely you can see that too?


What about my Cor's Vulcan's Staff or Joyeuse or Mkris? When commenting on my previous post you just so happened to miss that out. It's awesome to debate a retracted point that has already been discussed but ignore the main reason of the post.

Despite this being another example of your "Firestarting rude" Attitude problem.

We're not asking to upgrade old weapons that are still useable into great weapons, We're asking to upgrade a bad weapon We're still forced to wear on the job, so that it doesn't hurt us any further than it needs too.

To try and clarify, Thief's Knife is both Useless and forced in our hand.

Mkris, Joyeuse, and Vulcans are not. These are different examples, as i am not a cor, I can't speak if these weapons are replaced by now, However, None of these weapons are forced in your hand by your linkshell in order to play your job. There is a large difference between those weapons being outdated, and a Weapon thats meant for 70 still forced in our hands at 90 to 99.

We want Thieves' knife because we're still forced to wear it. there is no upgrade to it, there is nothing better to equip for Treasure hunter. Even if there was, it would be a case of "Main hand new Weapon off hand THF knife". Its an outdated weapon we are indeed forced to wear if we want to be on THF.

Again, not a problem on 1 NM fights, a Big problem on Mass farming/Dynamis/Limbus style events

[Economizer]

i liked a sugestion that went in the general manifesto thread some time ago (i think). Someone thought of a trait for war that it would not lose tp when swapping weapons. We could just extend this to everyone, really. This would open some new cool gameplay tactics, and it certainly fixes the TK curse.

Equip multihitter. Get TP. Equip high damage weapon. Use WS. Repeat.

Dual wield would get a massive nerf if this happened. Two-handed weapons would be insanely overpowered.

There are a lot of neat things you could do with this, but in the end, the game isn't balanced around this at all.

[FrankReynolds]

They need to cap Treasure Hunter from gear at +2, and then add Treasure Hunter +1 to all of the final stage Magian Daggers. That would eliminate the need for TK, and people could have a range of choices to use.

Maybe make the trial a side branch with requirements of killing 500 THF type mobs while having Treasure Hunter of a certain level in effect.

[Nynja]

My best weapon for my Lv90 Cor is Lv51. Can I get an upgrade to my Vulcan's Staff as well then?

Does the weapon DMG and Delay play a factor? No...then its fine as is. Though I was expecting someone to bring up weapons like that...

[Karbuncle]

I was hoping to not go the nerf route (Limiting it to +2 from gear), However if thats the only solution they'll give us, i'd take it.

I'd like to avoid nerfs though if possible :X

[FrankReynolds]

I don't really see it as a Nerf, you can still build it up fairly easy. Maybe they could just adjust the likelihood of increase at lower levels to compensate.

[Karbuncle]

I don't really see it as a Nerf, you can still build it up fairly easy. Maybe they could just adjust the likelihood of increase at lower levels to compensate.

Well, Perhaps, I think it would solve the entire problem in the shortest amount of time...

[noodles355]

1) Is how you go about "Providing the counter argument" sarcasm and abrasiveness/rude posts. You're making negative tones, rather you see it or not. Your methods are the problem not your message. Surely you see this.Irrelevant to the point. Up until that post there was no rude messages. I stated other jobs would want the same, and then I stated that I want my vulcan's staff upgraded on Cor. Any abrassiveness afterwards was a response to your "go away" post.


2) Theres a difference between "I want my x weapon to be upgraded, Even though theres already upgrades to it" and "This weapon is gimp and theres no way to replace it, can we upgrade it".There's upgrades to it through other means - non multi-attack weapons with boosts like snapshot or MaB. There is no high level multi-attack weapon for cor melee. It's a weapon who's purpose (multi-attacking for fast TP gain) hasn't been replaced by something that does the same, like TK.

Arguing against something you want, whats your angle? Why be the negative Nancy of the thread? We know what we're asking is a longshot, but we also feels its plausible. It's called playing the Devil's Advocate. Why get your hopes up for something that wont happen? Get over it and move on or look for solutions that are plausible. Don't hang onto your first idea so tightly.

I'm actually pretty happy You said this, this is the rude abrasiveness Fire-starting BS i was talking about when i asked you not to derail, thanks for saving me the trouble of digging up examples, As you just made one in this very post.Your last post said stop derailing, suggresting i had before the last post. There was no previous derailing or flaming. All of this you provoke by accusing me of causing trouble when all I did was provide a reason why this wont happen (thus, you should look for another means).

K, You said what you wanted too. At this points its not a counter argument to the OP, its you making angry posts because i offended you.No, it's me giving you the reason SE wont implament this. It's looking at both sides of the argument to try and understand if it is plausible or not. Then it's you insinuating that I'm trolling and derailing when I make a valid point, just because it's against your idea.

This is not a productive area of discussion, Nothing will come of this. Surely you can see that too?It's not a productive area of discussion? The one single reason it won't be implamented? Nothing will come of it in regards to SE adding this option, sure. But nothing will come of this whole post for that means for the reason I stated.

Despite this being another example of your "Firestarting rude" Attitude problem.From the person who misinterpreted a previous completely civil post and started this whole thing?

We're not asking to upgrade old weapons that are still useable into great weapons, We're asking to upgrade a bad weapon We're still forced to wear on the job, so that it doesn't hurt us any further than it needs too.People gimp themselves for the greater good of the LS all the time. And I know what you're asking for, however the simple fact is that it's still asking for one single pre76 weapon to be upgraded.

To try and clarify, Thief's Knife is both Useless and forced in our hand.

Mkris, Joyeuse, and Vulcans are not. These are different examples, as i am not a cor, I can't speak if these weapons are replaced by now, However, None of these weapons are forced in your hand by your linkshell in order to play your job. There is a large difference between those weapons being outdated, and a Weapon thats meant for 70 still forced in our hands at 90 to 99.

We want Thieves' knife because we're still forced to wear it. there is no upgrade to it, there is nothing better to equip for Treasure hunter. Even if there was, it would be a case of "Main hand new Weapon off hand THF knife". Its an outdated weapon we are indeed forced to wear if we want to be on THF.

Again, not a problem on 1 NM fights, a Big problem on Mass farming/Dynamis/Limbus style eventsAs much as I do agree I would like to see a replacement for TK, I just can't see SE doing it. There is already means to increase TH beyond what Thf Knife gave through AF3 Feet and lvl up procs. If they upgrade thief knife they will be forced to make everything upgradeable.

I'm not against making everything upgradeable with synergy augments. But it shouldn't just be for TK. If you want a boost for TK that the dev team will concider, then you should either ask for 2 new daggers that have TH+1 on it (you can't equip 3 daggers so TK would be replaced) or ask for the option to upgrade any old weapon.

[Nynja]

If they upgrade thief knife they will be forced to make everything upgradeable.

Based on what? TK is a weapon that is used for its extra stats, NOT for its dmg or delay, but its dmg and delay becomes a factor in thf dmg. You cant compare TK to joyeuse or MKris...because you arent using those weapons for dmg, but for TP gain...and if you were using it for DMG you'd use different weapons. You're not using a Vulcan Staff for DMG or Delay, you're not even trying to melee with it, you're using it for the STR+5 and Ratk+15.

And you want some "upgrades" to your Vulcan Staff?
Sagasinger is cor usable and comes with STR+15
The lv89 dagger (acainaces?) comes with Snapshot

Cant have everything in one weapon, nor are we asking for everything on TK. Were just asking if its dmg/delay can be made more respectible, and maybe an extra goodie or two.

[Karbuncle]

Edit: I have a Better idea. Time to activate the SEOFRUILBF. Pointless flame wars are simply best ignored.

(Not you Nynja)

[Economizer]

I was hoping to not go the nerf route (Limiting it to +2 from gear), However if thats the only solution they'll give us, i'd take it.

I'd like to avoid nerfs though if possible :X

It would be an interesting route to take, to say the least. Currently you can get +4 Treasure Hunter from gear effects inside Abyssea, (AF3+2 Feet, AF2 Arm, Dagger, Atma), since Atma sources count as gear. This would effectively be a -1 outside Abyssea (assuming the Kupowers buff doesn't count as gear), and a -2 inside, in exchange for much better damage from Thief.

Of course, upgrading the Thief's Knife itself would probably be easier then changing the code for Treasure Hunter, since the methods to upgrade weapons are already in place. In addition to making good suggestions, we have to also consider implementation difficulty if we ever want to see something implemented in a reasonable amount of time.

Edit: On all this talk about the Vulcan's Staff, perhaps the solution would be a higher level Shield equivalent to Elemental Staves. Still, upgrading the Staff itself is silly and a different debate - if you could just get a weapon with better stats for the Thief's Knife, I'd suggest that, but doing that would result in that weapon and the Thief's Knife being used together. The whole point this thread came up was because of this reality. Getting a better weapon for other stuff is an entirely different discussion.

[noodles355]

Based on what? TK is a weapon that is used for its extra stats, NOT for its dmg or delay, but its dmg and delay becomes a factor in thf dmg. You cant compare TK to joyeuse or MKris...because you arent using those weapons for dmg, but for TP gain...You're not using your TK for dmg, You're using it for TH. Same argument. When you melee with a Joy/mkris, TP gain is the goal, but TP damage is still a factor. Same as using TK.

A better suggestion would be for a dagger set that gives +1 on each or +1/+2 when used as a set. Alternatively to ask for all low level weapons to be upgraded. The problem with the 2nd would be it would involve either too much random shit to be worthwhile (first augment system) or potentially a lot of programming.

[Karbuncle]

Also I should mention, based on Nynjas post, A Thief's goal is to deal damage and land TH. Thief's Knife is a weapon that conflicts with the goal to do damage and is in turn helping the TH Ordeal.

No other job accurately faces that choice, no other job in the game ever faces an instance of "Put on this shitty weapon, or change jobs" that Thief has to do. THF is already a mediocre-grade DD, further sacrificing damage in order to satisfy those people who want TH i feel is a trade we should be able to avoid.

The comparison with Mkris and Joyeuse/Vulcans is irrelivant, No group forces you to wear those weapons in the same way THF is forced to wear Thief's Knife, and at least 1 one of those weapons has a replacement. There is a distinguishable difference between updating a weapon that already has things that outclass it, or yet remain the best in slot, and upgrading an outdated relic that is forced on our hands due to short-sighted planning.

There's a chunk of solution, and as i don't subscribe to the incredibly illogical "Slippery slope" theory of "If you let xxx happen ALL THIS WILL HAPPEN TOO" I reiterate what i can see as solutions.

1) Add Thief's Knife to be upgraded in some form. Raise its level to 90, Or simply add Level stipulations as Nynja Suggested
2) Limit Benefits to TH From gear to a total of +2.

And my latest idea. Which continue to be awesome.

3) Add a Weapon at level 95+ With "Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter +1" thats only active if not Wielding a Thief's Knife. Like...

Raider's Knfie
DMG:42 Delay:176
DEX+3 Attack+3
Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter +1

A Good DMG/Delay Weapon with fluff stats, and a latent effect that only works if you dont wield a Theif's Knife. It solves every problem without the need to upgrade a weapon and all that BS slippery slope logic.

I'm adding this to the OP as the best solution so far.

[Nebo]

I always wished they would make a quest where you could change TK into a key item or somehow have it effect your base TH effectiveness level without having to equip it just to tag first and swap out...

...maybe through adding it's TH value to the current Magian Dagger of your choice via Magian trials by trading a TK to the moogle?

[Economizer]

Raider's Knfie

Knfie? So your solution to the problem is to make Thief have an entirely new class of weapons? I'm sure your thoughts for this Knfie class of weapons also includes lower delays and higher damage ratings then Knifes too! You always want to make Thief so overpowered! :p

[Karbuncle]

Knfie? So your solution to the problem is to make Thief have an entirely new class of weapons? I'm sure your thoughts for this Knfie class of weapons also includes lower delays and higher damage ratings then Knifes too! You always want to make Thief so overpowered! :p

2handed Weapons i say!

for what its worth i blame my brothers tiny laptop keyboard :(

[noodles355]

And my latest idea. Which continue to be awesome.

3) Add a Weapon at level 95+ With "Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter +1" thats only active if not Wielding a Thief's Knife. Like...

Raider's Knfie
DMG:42 Delay:176
DEX+3 Attack+3
Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter +1Or, just add two more high level daggers with either Set: Treasure Hunter +1 or both ith Treasure Hunter +1. High damage dagger. No programming to make a new system. Replaces Thief Knife.
No drama, no problems, no issues at all.

Simple, and works. No need for some new augment system or anything that requires extra programming. Just add two new TH+ daggers.

[Karbuncle]

Then we go to wasting 1 potential damaging spot to wasting 2

Now I'll have to Dual Wield worthless daggers instead of using a Mandau, or Thwast. That wouldn't solve the problem we're trying to address here. :(

[Babekeke]

Knfie? So your solution to the problem is to make Thief have an entirely new class of weapons? I'm sure your thoughts for this Knfie class of weapons also includes lower delays and higher damage ratings then Knifes too! You always want to make Thief so overpowered! :p

Since we're being pedantic, the word you were looking for is than^^ ;p

[noodles355]

Targeting only Empyrean/Relic/Mythic thieves there. No reason why they couldn't have good DPS.
Although I agree a Latent Affect (Not equipping TK) would also work.

To be honest though, as much as I would prefer a stronger knife, I don't find it that much of a issue. The lower DPS has never caused me to fail an event. There is of course the argument for optimisation, however. But if you don't care about that (and not a whole lot do) then so what? As far as your personal damage goes, I have no issue with taking a lower DPS hit for the team.

If they added a method to do it I would welcome it, but I just can't see them doing it. There's too much warped SE logic that will get in the way "If we upgrade it, then we will have to offer upgrades for other weapons too" "You have to make a choice: DPS or higher TH" etc etc.

[Insaniac]

Noodles I wanna be nice to you because you are a fellow THF but your ideas on this subject are terrible and your arguments are beyond weak.

[Karbuncle]

Why'd they nerf our medals :(?

I liked my 4 shiny gold ones. Now i down to 2 again.

[noodles355]

What BC idea?

[MiriOhki]

Not trying to derail anything, but I can't see where the Joyeuse/MKris could qualify for the argument (Both have replacements via Magian trials (2xA Khanda +2 or 2-4xA Parazonium+2), though I can see the Vulcan Staff being an issue, save for one thing: Neither Ranger or Corsair (The usual suspects for VStaff's benefits) get any native staff skill anyway, so you'd be using it just for the STR/RAtt bonuses. Thief's Knife, on the other hand, has neither saving grace. And I personally like the idea of a Synergy upgrade just from a logic standpoint, since the Sky weaponry also is upgradable. It wouldn't stand out as odd, as opposed to the Magian trials since the only magian trials that aren't on new weaponry are on Relics/Mythics. As much as I love and am stuck with my TK, it doesn't seem to fit among that august company. Not that I wouldn't be thrilled if it was a Magian trial (My Synergy's only level 2 at the moment because until recently I couldn't afford to skill it up (Darn expensive fewell...)

[Insaniac]

What BC idea?Sorry got people mixed up. Edited my post to remove the slander.

[noodles355]

Not trying to derail anything, but I can't see where the Joyeuse/MKris could qualify for the argument (Both have replacements via Magian trials (2xA Khanda +2 or 2-4xA Parazonium+2),
Cor can't use Dagger or Sword Magian weapons.

Edit: Also sky gear is endgame content from an endgame event. Thief's Knife is just a drop from a NM and unrelated to any endgame event. If TK dropped from a sky/sea/salvage/etc NM then I'd agree with your point.

[Arcon]

I agree with noodles. Offhanding TH isn't bad in the first place. I still believe THF isn't a real DD, especially not in Dynamis or similar events (Olddyna, that is). But with the TH set knives, you'd still have replaced the Thief's Knife, and still got a useful DD ish set going. Are you mad that you can't use Mandau then? Well, that's like BLMs complaining they can't use Claustrum. Some jobs weren't meant to DD or even melee during certain events. THF has many issues, but this isn't one of them (making TH useful, on the other hand, is an actual issue).

[Lokithor]

An upgrade to Thief's knife would be great. Using synergy to add random augments would be crap - please don't use synergy. My preference would be to have a stand alone quest for upgrade to an existing thief's knife or, at worst, a Magian trial. Please do not add any additional weapons with TH or we will be forced to dual wield two crappy weapons.

[Karbuncle]

I agree with noodles. Offhanding TH isn't bad in the first place. I still believe THF isn't a real DD, especially not in Dynamis or similar events (Olddyna, that is). But with the TH set knives, you'd still have replaced the Thief's Knife, and still got a useful DD ish set going. Are you mad that you can't use Mandau then? Well, that's like BLMs complaining they can't use Claustrum. Some jobs weren't meant to DD or even melee during certain events. THF has many issues, but this isn't one of them (making TH useful, on the other hand, is an actual issue).

I honest to god can't tell if you're joking or not.

[Arcon]

I honest to god can't tell if you're joking or not.

No .

[Sp1cyryan]

Keep THFs knife the way it is so people don't have an excuse to full time it.

[Karbuncle]

Keep THFs knife the way it is so people don't have an excuse to full time it.

pfft, all the gimps already do >_________________________>

Sometimes in the main hand while offhanding a more powerful weapon.

[Atomic_Skull]

I understand the idea of Thief's Knife becoming a status symbol again like it was before the Sozu fix.. But that isn't really my plan. I don't want a 2.5% Chance at getting a dagger that doesn't suck.

You have a 100% chance of getting a dagger that doesn't suck with my idea. Even the NQ drop would be very good. The HQs would be slightly better but nobody is forcing you to try for those.

[FrankReynolds]

You have a 100% chance of getting a dagger that doesn't suck with my idea. Even the NQ drop would be very good. The HQs would be slightly better but nobody is forcing you to try for those.

Anything that forces me to sacrifice an optimal dagger / gear slot for a TH +1 item is just a side grade, and a waste of time IMO.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Lol, read my post no where in there does it say I fail to understand the tp loss, I stated that I find it acceptable. I think asking for another Thief Knife is too much and thieves should be happy with the dagger as is. In my post I stated why I felt this was ok. Read the post before you speak please I dont appreciate you speaking to me in this maner simply because you feel your side is justified over mine. At no time does my disagreement with you or your disagreement with me indictate a failure to understand the core of the discussion. Get it? Good. thx

[FrankReynolds]

Lol, read my post no where in there does it say I fail to understand the tp loss, I stated that I find it acceptable. I think asking for another Thief Knife is too much and thieves should be happy with the dagger as is. In my post I stated why I felt this was ok. Read the post before you speak please I dont appreciate you speaking to me in this maner simply because you feel your side is justified over mine. At no time does my disagreement with you or your disagreement with me indictate a failure to understand the core of the discussion. Get it? Good. thx

does anyone know what hes talking about?

[DebbieGibson]

Who suggested the JT that increases base damage according to how much TH+ you have equipped?

[Ezekieal]

WIthout reading the whole thread i wanna just say this is a great idea Karbuncle, same with your Evoker Ring suggestion in the smn forums.

Have a sequence of quests getting harder and harder to gradually increase the stats, sounds perfect.

For Thief Knife i would have the final quest change TH+1 into TH+2.

On the gimps mainhanding thf knife, i lol'd

For nm's

Daka +2/Thief Knife then after first TH upgrade > Daka +2/Triplus Dagger

Anywho fingers crossed that they implement this

[FANCY60]

thf as a trial would work but it has to be difficult to attain like the emp weapons where in order to get +2 th, u will need 100 carabosse jem or something

[Karbuncle]

Not that I'm against difficulty but why should a dagger with TH+2 be more difficult to Obtain than a game-shattering Empyrean Weapon?

Lets think logically here. Make it difficult so it can be powerful enough to deserve that difficulty, But at the same time, it doesn't need to be broom-rape. The Weapon won't replace anything we're using now full time, Its not what i want, Simply that it be a bit stronger so when we do use it, Its not a horrible hit to our DoT like it is now.

A lot of good ideas floating around. A Quest involving a tie-in to the end of the THF AF quest could have potential as well. A lot of Colorful characters in the THF AF Quest i liked..

[noodles355]

For nm's

Daka +2/Thief Knife then after first TH upgrade > Daka +2/Triplus Dagger
Am I the only one that held onto Auric Dagger for annoying/difficult TP move NMs?

[noodles355]

thf as a trial would work but it has to be difficult to attain like the emp weapons where in order to get +2 th, u will need 100 carabosse jem or somethingBold: contradictory points. Carabosse is a joke.

[FrankReynolds]

Bleh. I wouldn't care if it was killing 100 mandies outside port windy.......... Unless its better than what I have now for damage dealing, or SE officially announces " This dagger will give ~%50 more drops than Thief Knife", I'm not wasting my time. as long as it goes in that slot and isn't better than what I was DDing with before, its not a real solution.

I would really like to see them tell every other DD class "OK, we decided that your new weapon will have super crappy damage, but an awesome added effect (that may or may not actually work, but you will have to use it just i case.) so you are gonna just have to put it on for the first hit of every fight from now on. Have fun."

Sometimes I wonder if they are confused and think this is just like swapping staffs on a mage job.

The idea of making TK a Key Item is really growing on me.

[Arcon]

Am I the only one that held onto Auric Dagger for annoying/difficult TP move NMs?

No, it's a decent Dagger to DD in still, the Subtle Blow can be a nice bonus if it's relevant.

[Michae]

If they do something like this via ToM they should make it unique to thf and our abilities. Steal 20 bone chips from skeletons on darksday. Land a successful sneak attack against raptors 200 times, Mug 50 dull gems from carabosse or something of that sort. It would def make it more interesting than collecting another 50 whatevers from whoever...snore

[Karbuncle]

Bleh. I wouldn't care if it was killing 100 mandies outside port windy.......... Unless its better than what I have now for damage dealing, or SE officially announces " This dagger will give ~%50 more drops than Thief Knife", I'm not wasting my time. as long as it goes in that slot and isn't better than what I was DDing with before, its not a real solution.

I find going from 10DPS to 18DPS enough of an improvement to be worth my time If im forced to wear it for farming, I'd simply like it not to gimp me toooo much.

But i see your point, Its not a perfect solution... Making it a Key item though a second problem arises, Now you have a Key item, and the ability to wield a Thief's Knife... So you get TH7 instead. Wouldn't fix the problem, As i don't think making a Key Item prevent you from equipping a weapon is something they can program. no harm asking though.'

That being said, I still think the best solution if we were to get one is a completely new level 95+ Dagger that has "Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter+1" thats active when not paired with a Thief's Knife.

I had an idea that, You could do a series of quest that turned your Thief's Knife into "Treasure Hunter IV" Job Trait, but then the same problem as above arises, You can just buy a new Thief's Knife...

[noodles355]

Bleh. I wouldn't care if it was killing 100 mandies outside port windy.......... Unless its better than what I have now for damage dealing, or SE officially announces " This dagger will give ~%50 more drops than Thief Knife", I'm not wasting my time. as long as it goes in that slot and isn't better than what I was DDing with before, its not a real solution.

I would really like to see them tell every other DD class "OK, we decided that your new weapon will have super crappy damage, but an awesome added effect (that may or may not actually work, but you will have to use it just i case.) so you are gonna just have to put it on for the first hit of every fight from now on. Have fun."

Sometimes I wonder if they are confused and think this is just like swapping staffs on a mage job.

The idea of making TK a Key Item is really growing on me.Excuse me if i misinterpret this.
You're saying unless they make a TH+1 knife that replaces Thief's Knife that is on par with a top DD dagger, it's not a solution? Yeah, that's just not going to happen.

[Zirael]

Here's my idea for revamping Thief's Knife:
Change it, so that it loses TH+1 but instead becomes an enchanted item that grants TH+1 status effect.
<1/1 0:10/[00:05:00, 0:10]>
Status effect would stay up for 1h, would be maintained even when weapon is unequipped and as long as you don't change job/zone, let's say. If SE felt really generous, it could even be undisppellable, like Reraise.

The problem with TK is, no matter what other stats you'll give it, it will be still junk compared to wielding Mandau/Twashtar (as an extreme example). You lose aftermath and TP as soon as you swap out Thief Knife for real weapon, which is bad for fights like Arch Dynamis Lord: everyone else is rocking their 300TP aftermaths, you either have to build TP/aftermath from scratch or don't swap out and keep fighting with junk weapon. Even in events like Dynamis or WoE, I doubt any LS leader would allow you to use Mandau/Twashtar over Mandau/Thief Knife, we all know it. We're there to TH b!tch, nothing more.
Bards don't lose TP when swapping instruments (at least I think) and can still use Angel Lyre (or whatever they choose) after buffing party with G.Horn/Daurdabla. Why do we have to lose TP/Aftermath if we want to perform our core function AND do respectable damage? Why do we have to spend the whole of Dynamis/WoE with a junk weapon equipped when we have a pair of relic/mythic/empyrean/whatever?

That's my idea and short reasoning, feel free to dislike/disagree!

Edit:
A permutation of the idea: Introduce an item (or job ability) that gives you status effect reflecting your current TH level. In this case, you equip all your TH+ items, use an item (or even a job ability) to freeze that TH level on your person. After that you can swap out TK and fight for 1h (let's say, could last longer or shorter) with constant TH6 on your person. This way, no changes would need to be done to Thief Knife (eases burden on SE of redesigning the weapon from scratch, introducing magian trials, latent effects etc.).

[Laphine]

I liked your idea Zirael. Seems easier to implement than my idea of making the TH bonus take effect by keeping all TH items on inventory too.

A possible downside would be that everyone could be able to use TK for the charge. Then again, limiting it for THF main should be as easy as making race specific food.

[Zirael]

I liked your idea Zirael. Seems easier to implement than my idea of making the TH bonus take effect by keeping all TH items on inventory too.

A possible downside would be that everyone could be able to use TK for the charge. Then again, limiting it for THF main should be as easy as making race specific food.
Thank you :)
Well, Thief Knife is already 'THF only', so no issues there. As for TH working from inventory, in that case you'd have all other jobs demanding for other items to work from inventory too. And the answer would be: PS2 limitations/game balance.
As a side note, anyone remembers those Diablo II talismans you kept in your inventory that were giving small (or sometimes huge) bonuses to you? One can only dream... (*looks back and remembers his THF's 76/80 inventory spaces...*)
Just let us freeze our max TH level for prolonged time somehow SE!

[Nynja]

thf as a trial would work but it has to be difficult to attain like the emp weapons where in order to get +2 th, u will need 100 carabosse jem or something

What? What?

[Laphine]

As for TH working from inventory, in that case you'd have all other jobs demanding for other items to work from inventory too. And the answer would be: PS2 limitations/game balance.
As a side note, anyone remembers those Diablo II talismans you kept in your inventory that were giving small (or sometimes huge) bonuses to you? One can only dream... !
Yep yep lol. But if we could have effects straight from the inv it would be a small fix to in game macros as well. And yeah, diablo 2 hit me just after i posted it lol.

[FrankReynolds]

Excuse me if i misinterpret this.
You're saying unless they make a TH+1 knife that replaces Thief's Knife that is on par with a top DD dagger, it's not a solution? Yeah, that's just not going to happen.

yes. exactly that. They can just transfer the current Thief Knife into a Key Item, and just have it overwrite the other one (you could wield that piece of crap if you want but it offers no additional effect once you have the Key Item).

If they just add it too a new dagger, all that will do is: give you two crappy daggers to swap, with one being slightly less crappy than the other.

You really wouldn't be pissed if they said "Hey, good job on those 5 different Trials of the Magian daggers that you built. now go ahead an toss em cuz they don't even have a place in your off hand now."?

Even if they add a dagger that "Replaces" Thief Knife, you still have to swap it out if you want to perform at your best. Wouldn't it be better if they made it so you didn't have to swap out daggers at all?

"If you need $10, you ask for $20. You don't ask for $5."

[Lokithor]

What they should do is just change things so that you don't lose TP at all when you swap out a weapon in the off hand. If you think about it, this isn't that unreasonable because WS damage depends on the dmg rating of the main hand weapon only. This would actually open up the game to many more weapon combinations that could be very interesting.

This is quite similar to not losing TP when you swap out ammo. For example, traditional crossbow rangers use holy bolts for TP build and then swap in higher damage bolts for the WS.

Doing this would make the crap damage and delay of the Thief's knife much more palatable.

[noodles355]

What they should do is just change things so that you don't lose TP at all when you swap out a weapon in the off hand. If you think about it, this isn't that unreasonable because WS damage depends on the dmg rating of the main hand weapon only. This would actually open up the game to many more weapon combinations that could be very interesting.Yeah, nothing like swapping out a multi-attacking weapon for WS damage boosting weapon like a str/att, DA+10, TP bonus+100 etc one.

[Arcon]

What they should do is just change things so that you don't lose TP at all when you swap out a weapon in the off hand. If you think about it, this isn't that unreasonable because WS damage depends on the dmg rating of the main hand weapon only. This would actually open up the game to many more weapon combinations that could be very interesting.

This is quite similar to not losing TP when you swap out ammo. For example, traditional crossbow rangers use holy bolts for TP build and then swap in higher damage bolts for the WS.

Doing this would make the crap damage and delay of the Thief's knife much more palatable.

I actually quite like this idea. It would indeed open new options... stuff I've been wanting to do for quite some time. And while I can understand why it erases TP, it wouldn't also be horribly illogical if it didn't. I mean, I went by the argument that every time you change equipment that's in your hands (e.g. weapons), you lose TP. However, you still have to use your hands, and preferably put weapons down, to change other gear on you, so that wouldn't be too bad.

I always looked at losing TP as a means to not abuse TP-gain weapons, to WS in real weapons again. But you pretty much do that anyway with Dual Wielding weapons, because the offhanded weapon isn't very relevant to WS damage. So I think this is actually a nice option.

Also, if we extend it to the sub slot instead of just Dual Wield... /macros in Aegis for MDT set.

[Economizer]

What they should do is just change things so that you don't lose TP at all when you swap out a weapon in the off hand. If you think about it, this isn't that unreasonable because WS damage depends on the dmg rating of the main hand weapon only. This would actually open up the game to many more weapon combinations that could be very interesting.

This is quite similar to not losing TP when you swap out ammo. For example, traditional crossbow rangers use holy bolts for TP build and then swap in higher damage bolts for the WS.

Doing this would make the crap damage and delay of the Thief's knife much more palatable.

This would not solve situations where you quickly kill mobs and have little time to swap out.

Further, this would still break things. Being able to swap out between a Muse and Genbu's, or swapping from a Shield to a weapon to take advantage of the extra hit from DW, or swapping out a strap that gives double attack to one that gives STR.

If you exclude these arbitrarily (even more programing then easily upgrading a knife) from your change (more programing then easily upgrading a knife) that causes balance issues that would have to be examined between the two (yet more dev time).

Then of course, you could swap from offhanding a multihitter to a weapon that gives +20 Attack or +15 Accuracy, or Magic Attack Bonus, boosting the strength of a weapon skill just like swapping out a main hand weapon would.

The basic game mechanics are balanced in the way they are for a reason, and the suggestion of upgrading the dagger was simple, and suggesting something major to fix the issue when it could be fixed by a simple method that is already in place in the game just to avoid agreeing with a simple fix on principal is quite silly. This thread was meant to be a simple fix, not one that involves rewriting major parts of the game code to fix a simple problem.


Yeah, nothing like swapping out a multi-attacking weapon for WS damage boosting weapon like a str/att, DA+10, TP bonus+100 etc one.

WS Damage and TP bonus weapons supposedly don't work in your offhand.

[Karbuncle]

The TP Bonus ones do Work offhand

From Magian trials, not the AH ones.

[Nebo]

WS Damage and TP bonus weapons supposedly don't work in your offhand.

WS Damage +10% Fusetto, doesn't but the TP Bonus + 100 Fusetto does work in offhand.

[FrankReynolds]

lol all mages would want to think they should be at the front line if they could rock DD crap and swap stave's in for casting :P I'm gonna link this post to the RED melee forum and watch them all jizz themselves.

[Karbuncle]

While the idea might be a little out there, Allowing people to switch their sub hand weapon without losing TP May solve a good chunk of the problem.

At this point, I'm just not using my Thief's Knife anymore though... With the miniscule difference between TH5 and 6, its not worth the hit to my DPS. Considering i can upgrade it.

So yah, Imperfect solution, But i've just storage'd the damn thing for now until somethings done >_>

[Arcon]

If you exclude these arbitrarily (even more programing then easily upgrading a knife) from your change (more programing then easily upgrading a knife) that causes balance issues that would have to be examined between the two (yet more dev time).

The programming effort amounts to about the time it takes to remove the line that resets TP.

And about the boni to WS you get from that, how is it different from the 13 other slots you can already change freely, that sometimes provide even larger boni? Att+20? There's better for most jobs. DA+10? For some jobs there's better. Only TP+100 would be exceptional I guess (at least for the WS where TP actually matters).

Would it push dual wielding DDs? Most certainly, is that a bad thing? No, because damage was one of the things people in here always complained about as well. Only dual wielding job that can somewhat DD is NIN, and they're not great at that either. BLU? Their damage comes from magical damage. DNC? They're THF+1 in terms of damage, which is like saying 0+1.

I don't see how this affects game balance so much, and if it does, just adjust the TP Bonus +100 Magian weapons to work from main hand only, that's the only massive damage boost I can see (and not for all WS either). The largest factor for any physical Weapon Skill is base damage, and by that it would still be limited the way it is now, since only main hand base damage is used for WS calculations.

[FrankReynolds]

I still say the easiest way to do this is to cap TH at +2 from gear

[Karbuncle]

That'd certainly fix the problem with least amount of effort involved.

[noodles355]

WS Damage and TP bonus weapons supposedly don't work in your offhand.
I said "WS damage boosting weapons". Weapons with +Att/Str, +DA, etc are weapons that boost WS damage through various means. Did not mean the WSDMG+10% whatever weapons.

[SpankWustler]

Based on the concept that nothing SE plans for Thief really makes sense, here is my suggestion:

Upon trading the Thief's Knife to an Ebon Panel in the depths of sea, it vanishes from your inventory.

Two days later (game days or real life days, it's random), an NPC named "Thief's Wife" begins to follow you around. The Thief's Wife is that Galka with a bald spot and a fu manchu, wearing a full Bronze Subligar set and armed with an Ukonvasara which is never used or even drawn. If you buy another Thief's Knife and attempt to equip it, the Thief's Wife shouts "No Dear!" and such an action will not be allowed.

Your Treasure Hunter upgrade messages will be replaced by shouts from the Thief's Wife, with a +1 bonus taken into account. For variety, the Thief's Wife will shout things like "Treasure Hunter Level 7, Honey Bunny!" and "Good job Sweetums, that's Treasure Hunter Level 11!" By shout, I mean these things will literally appear in the shout channel using normal mechanics with one exception. It is not possible to filter them by any means.

When inevitably nothing drops, the Thief's Wife will perform a /comfort motion with you as the target. A look deep in the Thief's Wife's eyes, however, will let you know that the Thief's Wife still blames you for the absence of a drop. In this way, the process will mirror a real relationship.

So, development team, what do you think? This sounds like it's right up your alley.

[FrankReynolds]

Lmao at your reason for editing.

[Nebo]

Based on the concept that nothing SE plans for Thief really makes sense, here is my suggestion:

Upon trading the Thief's Knife to an Ebon Panel in the depths of sea, it vanishes from your inventory.

Two days later (game days or real life days, it's random), an NPC named "Thief's Wife" begins to follow you around. The Thief's Wife is that Galka with a bald spot and a fu manchu, wearing a full Bronze Subligar set and armed with an Ukonvasara which is never used or even drawn. If you buy another Thief's Knife and attempt to equip it, the Thief's Wife shouts "No Dear!" and such an action will not be allowed.

Your Treasure Hunter upgrade messages will be replaced by shouts from the Thief's Wife, with a +1 bonus taken into account. For variety, the Thief's Wife will shout things like "Treasure Hunter Level 7, Honey Bunny!" and "Good job Sweetums, that's Treasure Hunter Level 11!" By shout, I mean these things will literally appear in the shout channel using normal mechanics with one exception. It is not possible to filter them by any means.

When inevitably nothing drops, the Thief's Wife will perform a /comfort motion with you as the target. A look deep in the Thief's Wife's eyes, however, will let you know that the Thief's Wife still blames you for the absence of a drop. In this way, the process will mirror a real relationship.

So, development team, what do you think? This sounds like it's right up your alley.

If I can Trick Attack my Thief's Wife, I'm down like China Town.

[SpankWustler]

If I can Trick Attack my Thief's Wife, I'm down like China Town.

The Thief's Wife seems to move into position for Trick Attack when you engage a monster, but runs around the monster at Flee speed once the job ability Trick Attack is used. This, along with following the Thief constantly, is the only AI which the Thief's Wife possesses.

This AI is based on popular tactics used by various melee jobs.

[Arcon]

The Thief's Wife seems to move into position for Trick Attack when you engage a monster, but runs around the monster at Flee speed once the job ability Trick Attack is used. This, along with following the Thief constantly, is the only AI which the Thief's Wife possesses.

This AI is based on popular tactics used by various melee jobs.

{lie}. They don't run at Flee speed.

[SpankWustler]

A player experienced at avoiding Trick Attack has spent years honing his craft to perfection. He can make a feint to the left then pull hard to the right, or even back up just barely within melee range to force the Thief out of range. An NPC is incapable of both the malice and forethought needed for such techniques, so I figure a movement speed bonus would balance that out.

[FrankReynolds]

even back up just barely within melee range to force the Thief out of range.

Galka tanks are pro at this.

[Insaniac]

The greatest TA dodge in my humble opinion is the super jump dodge. It not only accomplishes the dodge but also proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that they just did it because they hate you since they could have just waited for you to TA and then super jumped to lose hate.

[Babekeke]

I recently had a NIN back up to a pond so I couldn't TA him. Not on purpose, but still >.>
He moved when I pointed out that I can't swim^^

And some players are now getting so used to letting you Sneak Attack the mob, that they will constantly try to be on the opposite side of the mob from you, even if they just saw you use trick attack before they engaged the mob.

I've discovered that there's also a Sneak Attack dodge that other players excell at in areas like dynamis where you roam around killing mobs (like the TE mobs for example). As you approach a mob that is facing away from you, you hit sneak attack and run up to it, knowing full well that as you reach ~6' from the mob, someone's going to hit it with a ranged attack, or voke it so it turns to face you ><

Either way, I'm sure my dogs find it hilarious to see me yelling at my laptop every time I play thf in a pt with at least 1 other melee.

[FANCY60]

putting thf knife into the trial pool would be a great idea but no i wont agree with add th2 on the one item would make it crazy and annoying to aquire as for example if it requires kill 10000 lizards ppl would live in valley or sorrow for ever making ever lizard pop like an nm claim would put alot of ppl off. maybe they can in crease the dmg or amount of hits i.e
@80 2-3 hits
@85 2-4
@90 2-5
@95 2-5 dmg +5
@99 2-8 all this with th1 would be nice

[Karbuncle]

I don't think they'll ever turn THF's knife into a Kraken Club... that is bordering absurd.

Also, Theres not a single trial in the game, even pre-Relic trials, that required 10,000 of something. Further, Those trials you can team up on. Also theres plenty of Lizard mobs in Abyssea to kill as well.

Though, we've moved away from the trial idea... it has its flaws :\

[noodles355]

I still can't see them making an exception when every other trial weapon was either designed for the trials or was a relic/mythic.

[SpankWustler]

putting thf knife into the trial pool would be a great idea but no i wont agree with add th2 on the one item would make it crazy and annoying to aquire as for example if it requires kill 10000 lizards ppl would live in valley or sorrow for ever making ever lizard pop like an nm claim would put alot of ppl off. maybe they can in crease the dmg or amount of hits i.e
@80 2-3 hits
@85 2-4
@90 2-5
@95 2-5 dmg +5
@99 2-8 all this with th1 would be nice

Man, and I thought my joke was an exercise in dark humor.

[Nynja]

putting thf knife into the trial pool would be a great idea but no i wont agree with add th2 on the one item would make it crazy and annoying to aquire as for example if it requires kill 10000 lizards ppl would live in valley or sorrow for ever making ever lizard pop like an nm claim would put alot of ppl off. maybe they can in crease the dmg or amount of hits i.e
@80 2-3 hits
@85 2-4
@90 2-5
@95 2-5 dmg +5
@99 2-8 all this with th1 would be nice

People with ideas like yours should be banned from "posting ideas", because people read them and go "LOOOOOL" and forget about anything. Dont ask for a mile when all you need is an inch, otherwise no ones going to listen.

[FrankReynolds]

No wonder devs never listen. 8 hit Thief Knife ..... I just.........

[Babekeke]

No wonder devs never listen. 8 hit Thief Knife ..... I just.........

...came?

;p

[Concerned4FFxi]

Karbuncle, I don't care if I farm in dynamis with my thief knife in my off hand. I get where your coming from, to me it is an acceptable sacrifice in order to get th6 im giving up tp because of the gear swap. Blms sacrifice tp in order to switch staves for optimal nuking (tp is given to blms when they nuke from the job ability Occult Acumen, while probaly 99% of all blms fail to take advantage of this ja and myself is included it is still a trade off that we accept), granted tp means nothing to blm and alot more to a thief but it is what it is. You want th6, use the knife, you dont, you get th5. I dont like the tp trade off from switching back to my dd or eva sub weapon after I apply treasure hunter 6, it's just that I disagree because I see it as an acceptable trade off that's part of the job.

PS- While we disagree here I wouldn't be upset if the knife gets an upgrade. I just dont want to see it full timed 24/7 unless a person is farming, and in the case of farming its acceptable to either lose tp from a gear swap or to just full time the knife- its what you have to do to in order to get th6. Now im a new monk so I may be wrong, but I trade out some haste/stat gear if im using a tanking/counter stance set for acc/eva, these are the choices that are to be made and the trade offs involved.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Actually i wouldnt mind the raider's knife idea if the damage output was reduced to say 35 (this makes it much better than tk and keeps pace with the new level increases but also makes it slighlty less optimal than other dd knives and maintains its balance). I'd alos like to see that in order to acquire it you need a tk to pop the nm that drops the raiders knife, by trading the tk to the ??? that pops the nm that drops the new knife. Since most if not all thieves own a tk, this wont be a problem and wont impact the economy as much if the new knife drop rate is decent.

[FrankReynolds]

Karbuncle, I don't care if I farm in dynamis with my thief knife in my off hand. I get where your coming from, to me it is an acceptable sacrifice in order to get th6 im giving up tp because of the gear swap. Blms sacrifice tp in order to switch staves for optimal nuking (tp is given to blms when they nuke from the job ability Occult Acumen, while probaly 99% of all blms fail to take advantage of this ja and myself is included it is still a trade off that we accept), granted tp means nothing to blm and alot more to a thief but it is what it is. You want th6, use the knife, you dont, you get th5. I dont like the tp trade off from switching back to my dd or eva sub weapon after I apply treasure hunter 6, it's just that I disagree because I see it as an acceptable trade off that's part of the job.

PS- While we disagree here I wouldn't be upset if the knife gets an upgrade. I just dont want to see it full timed 24/7 unless a person is farming, and in the case of farming its acceptable to either lose tp from a gear swap or to just full time the knife- its what you have to do to in order to get th6. Now im a new monk so I may be wrong, but I trade out some haste/stat gear if im using a tanking/counter stance set for acc/eva, these are the choices that are to be made and the trade offs involved.

SO you don't care if you do shit damage and die a lot as long as a random number that does virtually nothing appears on the screen once in a while? Great! Your invited to none of my runs.

[noodles355]

Actually i wouldnt mind the raider's knife idea if the damage output was reduced to say 35 (this makes it much better than tk and keeps pace with the new level increases but also makes it slighlty less optimal than other dd knives and maintains its balance). I'd alos like to see that in order to acquire it you need a tk to pop the nm that drops the raiders knife, by trading the tk to the ??? that pops the nm that drops the new knife. Since most if not all thieves own a tk, this wont be a problem and wont impact the economy as much if the new knife drop rate is decent.Get TK, pop NM, get new knife, go to auction house, buy TK again. Now you have 2 daggers.

[Karbuncle]

If he's talking about the Raider's Knife i suggested, in this thread, and in my OP.

Its "Treasure Hunter +1" bonus is a Latent effect only active when not wielding a Thief's Knife. So if you did what you described you'd be wasting a dagger.

[SpankWustler]

Now im a new monk so I may be wrong, but I trade out some haste/stat gear if im using a tanking/counter stance set for acc/eva, these are the choices that are to be made and the trade offs involved.

You are wrong.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Ive never seen so many trolls in one tread. I'm not wrong about monk, if I am than post what you would use here. Educate me, help a new monk out, dont just post garbage comments and leave. Anyone can post a comment and not back it up, or mock others without contributing to the debate. I didnt see you suggestiong better. Spank, the fact that you felt you had to be nasty and comment on such a harmless post of mine where I stated I was a new monk shows me that you have no real value to contribute and your only purpose is to insult others. Were you that bullied in High School, or are you still attending? FYI Chralie Sheen is a jerk and not a very good role model. Change your ways before its too late, I'll pray for you.

Its obvious this is not a discussion, some of you are trolling here (very sad), all I see are hate posts, talking shit on peoiple that disagree with you, and a general attempt to belittle others in your own foolish self-absorbed "I'm better than you" 3rd grade attitude. Sad. Your failed attempts to insult those who disagree with you only show that you have no class.

Frankreynolds, your the king of trolls here. Your previous post (not the last one) almost prompted me to respond than, but I thought better of it because I wanted to believe it was just a one time rude remark and I'd leave it at that. Regretfully, after looking at the posts in here and your latest comment, I see your just an ignorant and not worth my time after this.

To the ones who are crude and rude, you know who you are. Its a shame that people like yourselfs were given mouths to speak but never learned proper manors. People shouldn't speak ill of others the first time they meet them. Also, dont open your mouth just because you can unless your contributing to a discusiion. Shame on you trolls, no wonder people leave this game they probably are sick and tired of dealing with individuals like yourselves which have nothing better to do than pick fights and cause trouble. I find some comments in this log seriously childish. Go grow a real pair and start being real men.

Because I dont feed trolls this is my first and last post to those en said angry dwarves that can't stand someone else with a different or disagreeable idea to theirs. Thank God your a nobody in the real world or we'd be more screwed than we already are.

*If your not responding to other people's posts in a rude or condescending manor like Spank and Frank than this message is not directed at you. Please disreguard. To all others besides the intended audience (the troll group) who read this post, I'm sorry you have to see this but it had to be said. I've held my tongue long enough. If you show no respect for others than I have no respect for you and will treat you with disdain.

[Concerned4FFxi]

The raider's knife being suggested by Karbuncle is rare/ex, this would prevent people from making a profit off it (at least in the auction house sense where I understand it was suggested that one could buy a thieves knife and then sell the raider's knife on the auction house and then repurchase a thieves knife and repeat) and disable wielding two of the weapon. Also the latent on the knife prevents thieves from using the orginal thief's knife for treasure hunter and this, and allows only one treasure hunter+1 weapon equiped at one time to have it's treasure hunter active.

[SpankWustler]

Ive never seen so many trolls in one tread. I'm not wrong about monk, if I am than post what you would use here. Educate me, help a new monk out, dont just post garbage comments and leave. Anyone can post a comment and not back it up, or mock others without contributing to the debate. I didnt see you suggestiong better. Spank, the fact that you felt you had to be nasty and comment on such a harmless post of mine where I stated I was a new monk shows me that you have no real value to contribute and your only purpose is to insult others. Were you that bullied in High School, or are you still attending? FYI Chralie Sheen is a jerk and not a very good role model. Change your ways before its too late, I'll pray for you.

Your accuracy should be capped at 95% in a typical haste TP set against stuff you would counter-tank, and you'd be better off changing a constant such as food if it is not. I recommend Pizza +1 over Sushi unless you're fighting something really evasive. At any rate, if your hit-rate is capped at 95% as it should be than more accuracy isn't going to help your counter rate.

As for the evasion gear, that's only useful if you're soloing or if your healer has coarsely ground 80/20 beef where his or her brain once lay. So, you can maybe open up some inventory space there.

Well, assuming that you're level 90 and stuff. Everything is situational, but I hope this has been helpful in some way. Honestly, you weren't too far off in this case and it's cool that you went to the effort. Keep punching stuff!

I didn't feel that I had to be nasty, however, I did actively choose to be in this situation. You consistently suggest changes to FFXI which indicate an inadequate understanding of game mechanics and would make the game less pleasant for many people. I don't mind the former bit, Final Fantasy XI is just a game and it's not like the in-game stuff is terribly informative. The way it leads into the latter bit really grates my gonad, though.

If someone said he could fix your car by gluing a dead cat to the head-rest of the driver's seat, how would you address him even if he were sincere and meant well?

[FrankReynolds]

Frankreynolds, your the king of trolls here. Your previous post (not the last one) almost prompted me to respond than, but I thought better of it because I wanted to believe it was just a one time rude remark and I'd leave it at that. Regretfully, after looking at the posts in here and your latest comment, I see your just an ignorant and not worth my time after this.


Really? You post about how Thief Knife is fine how it is.... and then in your next post your mad because I didn't jump on board with the 8 hit Thief Knife?

OK, so instead of "trolling" and saying that I'm mean.... Explain to me why you think that an 8 hit Thief knife as described by fancy is a reasonable upgrade. Why should we think this makes sense. Why should I not laugh at that idea?

After your done with that, go ahead and explain why you think that that idea is compatible with your belief that swapping Thief Knife is fine how it is.

Because I'm not OK with how Thief Knife is now, and I believe People who are OK with substandard damage are bad for the job image.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Well, thank you for the constructive feedback. Spank, I spoke with a mnk in my ls recently and he told me basically what you just said, except I appreciate the food input.

Frank, I appreciate your last post it opens the floor up to discussion. Im not sure if you read my other posts, theres 5 of them, heres some of what was said:

I don't care if I farm in dynamis with my thief knife in my off hand. I get where your coming from, to me it is an acceptable sacrifice in order to get th6 im giving up tp because of the gear swap or the shitty thief knife tp gain. Blms sacrifice tp in order to switch staves for optimal nuking (tp is given to blms when they nuke from the job ability Occult Acumen, while probaly 99% of all blms fail to take advantage of this ja and myself is included it is still a trade off that we accept), granted tp means nothing to blm and alot more to a thief but it is what it is. You want th6, use the knife, you dont, you get th5. I dont like the tp trade off from switching back to my dd or eva sub weapon after I apply treasure hunter 6, it's just that I disagree because I see it as an acceptable trade off that's part of the job.

I wouldn't be upset if the knife gets an upgrade. I just dont want to see it full timed 24/7 unless a person is farming, and in the case of farming its acceptable to either lose tp from a gear swap or to just full time the knife- its what you have to do to in order to get th6.

I like the idea of a Raider's knife, I guess at this point thats almost what is suggetsed by the tread poster. So in summary I'm saying I dont like the thief knife but I accept it for th6 trade off, if it gets upgraded or replaced as suggested in this thread I just dont want to see it as a powerful universal off-hand weapon, I'd prefer that it had some balance. However, at this point I have to ask SE what they think, because looking at the af3+2 feet, now i dont full time them in my haste build but they get alot of action because of the agility mod and evasion boost, and they have treasure hunter. So its possible SE is rethinking the way treasure hunter gear is being used and maybe they want to see the next generation of treasure hunter gear to be more than just a thief's knife, maybe they want it to be full timed i dont know.

have i started singing a different tune- yes, just a little. I'm allowed to reconsider my possition in whole or in part. In this case I'd be up for changes or replacement to thief knife if it wasnt done to make the new weapon over-kill.

[Lokithor]

I'm going to shamelessly repeat a point I made earlier in this thread. Keep the crappy thief knife the way it is. Just change mechanics so that you don't lose TP when swapping an off hand weapon. In addition to solving the thief's knife issue, it would bring a whole new dimension to weapon selection and the dynamics of battle for dual wielders.

[Nynja]

Equip Kraken Club, TP to 100, Change sub weapon and WS, change back to Kraken club...

Great idea.

[Arcon]

Equip Kraken Club, TP to 100, Change sub weapon and WS, change back to Kraken club...

Great idea.

Yes, switch to that amazing dagger to do 5 more points of damage during WS. Clearly this idea is massively imbalanced.

I pointed out before that the only weapons that should be considered overpowered are the TP+100 Magian weapons. The solution is simple, just make that effect work only on the main hand, like with other TP bonus weapons. And honestly, considering the other possible buffs these days, even that wouldn't be the end of the world.

[noodles355]

If you make the TP+100 weapons main hand only, you're going to piss off a lot of people who spent time on that trial.

[FrankReynolds]

Make a Magian trial that combines the Thief Knife and Raiders Boomerang into one throwing item. problem solved.

[Arcon]

If you make the TP+100 weapons main hand only, you're going to piss off a lot of people who spent time on that trial.

True, although it doesn't seem like SE has trouble pissing off their userbase. Just look at relics.

[SpankWustler]

Make a Magian trial that combines the Thief Knife and Raiders Boomerang into one throwing item. problem solved.

Kupo! Bonjour, mademoiselle! To combine your Thief's Knife and Raider's Boomerang, bring me a Block of Yagudo Glue, a Block of Animal Glue, a Pot of Honey, a Box of Sticky Rice, and a shockingly sticky Sin of Indulgence! Itadakimasu! Kupo!

[Lokithor]

Yes, switch to that amazing dagger to do 5 more points of damage during WS. Clearly this idea is massively imbalanced.

I pointed out before that the only weapons that should be considered overpowered are the TP+100 Magian weapons. The solution is simple, just make that effect work only on the main hand, like with other TP bonus weapons. And honestly, considering the other possible buffs these days, even that wouldn't be the end of the world.
This.

While you will be able to fine tune WS damage by choosing the sub on the fly, the effect would not be that great over just keeping the sub used to generate the TP - the variation in stats is not that big and not that much different than stat variation achieved in other gear slots. It will, though, bring lots of variation to those who like to tinker AND allow you to dynamically use weapons for other effects, such as TH, without dramatically losing damage due to resetting your TP.

And for the 2-handers out there that will QQ, let them change grips without TP loss.

[Insaniac]

It would be too overpowered. It wouldn't be insane but being able to switch between add effect, crit, haste, pdt, str/att, dex/acc, agi/eva, TP bonus, and multi-hit would be too much. There is meant to be a trade off between stats on your offhand. You can go full damage or you can go utility. The problem with TK is that the utility isn't worth the trade off.

A higher DPS dagger with a "When Thief's Knife is not equipped: TH+1" effect is the only solution.

[FrankReynolds]

It would be too overpowered. It wouldn't be insane but being able to switch between add effect, crit, haste, pdt, str/att, dex/acc, agi/eva, TP bonus, and multi-hit would be too much. There is meant to be a trade off between stats on your offhand. You can go full damage or you can go utility. The problem with TK is that the utility isn't worth the trade off.

A higher DPS dagger with a "When Thief's Knife is not equipped: TH+1" effect is the only solution.

or you could do this:

Make a Magian trial that combines the Thief Knife and Raiders Boomerang into one throwing item. problem solved.

[noodles355]

I don't think SE will like the logic of making a random Magian Trial just for thieves. SE likes groups and patterns, don't forget.

[Nynja]

Yes, switch to that amazing dagger to do 5 more points of damage during WS. Clearly this idea is massively imbalanced.

I pointed out before that the only weapons that should be considered overpowered are the TP+100 Magian weapons. The solution is simple, just make that effect work only on the main hand, like with other TP bonus weapons. And honestly, considering the other possible buffs these days, even that wouldn't be the end of the world.

You'd be surprised how much damage gets contributed from your offhand, its a lot more than "5 more points of damage"

[Arcon]

You'd be surprised how much damage gets contributed from your offhand, its a lot more than "5 more points of damage"

Not more than from the other 13 pieces of equipment that you can swap freely. I just don't quite understand the rage, if you remove the TP Bonus, those offhand weapons have no stats that you can't get on almost every other piece of equipment. Admittedly, STR/Att Kila may also be a pretty large boost, but there's single items in other slots that do almost the same (even more, for certain jobs).

And from a logical standpoint, if you can change 13 other pieces of equipment several times a second, then changing your off hand weapon to weapon skill is not gonna break the game.

Would it boost current damage? Sure. By an insane amount? No. Now if that's good or bad you can decide for yourself. And remember, this would easily solve the current TH problem better than any suggested alternatives (maybe trials, which wouldn't happen though, as noodles pointed out before, and personally I would hate anyway).

[Nynja]

Ok, you missed the point when I made my original statement, so I'll try again


Just change mechanics so that you don't lose TP when swapping an off hand weapon.

Equip Kraken Club, TP to 100, Change sub weapon and WS, change back to Kraken club...

Do you understand the words that are commin outta my mouffff?

[Arcon]

Do you understand the words that are commin outta my mouffff?

No .

[noodles355]

Don't nobody understand the words that are coming out of yo mouth man.

[FrankReynolds]

You don't have Kraken Club for Thief? Pssshhh.... GIMP!


Can't wait to hear that.

[Karbuncle]

Being able to freely switch your offhand without loosing TP would be nice, Something tells me that code is soo deep into the spaghetti code that it could never be undone.

Still think the best Solution outside of my Raider's Knife Example is limiting TH Bonus from gear to +2, So we wouldn't ever need the weapon if we had hands/feet.

[Babekeke]

or you could do this:

Make a Magian trial that combines the Thief Knife and Raiders Boomerang into one throwing item. problem solved.

No, because then you can still do that trial and then get a new TK to equip in off-hand, completely NOT fixing the problem.

[FrankReynolds]

No, because then you can still do that trial and then get a new TK to equip in off-hand, completely NOT fixing the problem.

they could just give it the same id as thief knife so that you couldn't hold em both. call it a raiders throwing knife or something.

[noodles355]

The easiest suggestion, as mentioned (and apologies if I dismissed it earlier) is just to release a dagger with Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter +1m Laten activatd when Thief's Knife is not equipped. With the TH proc system, it would bemuch easier to test the latent than it would ahve been previously.

[FrankReynolds]

I just don't see the point in changing it at all if it still requires me to swap out my dagger.

[noodles355]

I believe the argument is people would generally be ok for a small hit to their DoT in exchange for TH+1 but aren't happy with the big hit to their DoT they trade for TH+1 that they currently deal with.

[FrankReynolds]

I know, I just believe that if somethings worth doing, it's worth doing right. Why half ass fix it?

[Karbuncle]

I know, I just believe that if somethings worth doing, it's worth doing right. Why half ass fix it?

Asking them to create an item that shares an ID with another item that is a combination of two separate items is incredibly far fetched, and i would even debate impossible for them to do, as no other item in this game appears to follow anything remotely similar to that type of coding.

Beyond that, with SE, Its naive to expect a solution that perfectly solves every aspect of the problem that doesn't involve nerfing in some way. What ideas we toss out are suggestions for a middle ground, Not a Fking NERFBAT that the THF's knife currently is, But not the RELEASETHEKRAKEN Knife either.

We're pretty much settling, I don't expect an expert solution to this, In fact i pretty much expect "We aren't doing anything because you can Upgrade TH now, So we dont wanna waste time on it"... which, Honestly, Isn't a bad solution albeit a bit lazy.

I Can't demand them to give us a Second farking Mandau-THF-Hybrid Knife to be the perfect off-hand weapon of god... So i ask for a middle ground, Something OF LEVEL 95+ With Similar DMG/Delay of daggers of that level so the impact on our DPS is not as severe as it is now, Like Noodles explained.

I would gladly except a Kraken Knife if they'd give it to us. Anyway, As for "whyhalfassit", Its because Even if the Dagger only had 10 more base damage, Its still a huge improvement over what we currently have, and I'm the kind of man who'd take Something over nothing.

Yah IDK, To sum it up, Your solution just seems a bit out there, Its so bad I honestly think you're messing with us just to poke fun >_>

[Karbuncle]

I just don't see the point in changing it at all if it still requires me to swap out my dagger.

In events like Dynamis or Limbus with multiple enemies in large numbers, Switching out your daggers every fight will make you lose significant amounts of TP, really hurting our overall DPS.

This is where we're asking for a solution.

I mean, Theoretically they could give us a Piece of Armor like... a ring... "Thief's band" with Latent:TH+1 similar to my Raider's Knife Suggestion... This way it would just be an Armor that can be freely swapped out whenever, and remove the use for Thief's Knife.

[FrankReynolds]

I think you must be having a bad day. Replacing an item with another is extremely easy to code. they do it with tons of Magian items. You trade in X item and X amount of another item and receive a different item in return. They then add a line that says something like: if item(Raiders Whateveritscalled) = true then()....;

There are probably a million other spots in the code where they can copy it from, and just change the item name.

I don't want a perfect dagger. I want an item that goes in a different slot and negates the need for that dagger, or makes it so you don't need to equip an item at all, like a Key Item, or something that is in effect anytime its in inventory. If you ask them for a better Thief Knife, you will in all likelihood end up with 2 Thief Knifes that you have to equip. I try to not suggest things that allow for misinterpretation by the reps. I'm terribly afraid that this is gonna get translated into "we want 2 thief knifes".

[SpankWustler]

I mean, Theoretically they could give us a Piece of Armor like... a ring... "Thief's band" with Latent:TH+1 similar to my Raider's Knife Suggestion... This way it would just be an Armor that can be freely swapped out whenever, and remove the use for Thief's Knife.

Something like this really sounds like the best solution. It should be easy to code, it gives people another item to work towards, and it fixes the problem completely and forever since that would be a swappable slot.

Of course, given that it's SE, I'm sure it's not actually easy to code.

"Yeah, adding the LootMonger's Lutefisk-flavored Long-johns just made Absolute Virtue spawn in Port Windurst."

"Oh, what's he doing?"

"He is...well...he is buying a level 1 sword and leveling Red Mage. And somehow, he just made a post on the forums advocating melee enhancements for Red Mage."

"Does he have better grammar than that 'Rosina' person who makes the translation team scream at each other and cry under their table?"

"Somewhat. It's pretty much exactly the way he talks in-game, so it's just a smidgen north of incomprehensible."

"Add the LootMonger's Lutefisk-flavored Long-johns now, and we'll work the bugs out before the December update. Let's take off early today."

[FrankReynolds]

....the LootMonger's Lutefisk-flavored Long-johns

No matter what it is, this should be the item name.

[Laphine]

I liked this latent idea a lot too. Giving that to a different equipment piece fixes the dps issue because a th dagger will probably be sucky in comparison to what's the best out there on dps terms. Also, a ring doesn't affect our dps like a weapon choice does, and there is also the option of giving it a secondary dps stat. I mean, even if we gave such stat to the weapon, its damage and delay will be what make or break it.

[Karbuncle]

I'm going to add the Armor idea to the OP, as i think we can agree that its the best solution short of a nerf.

[Lokithor]

Make the armor item lv 95, RA EX and have it obtained through a quest that involves consumption of a thief's knife in order to maintain the value of the knife on the market.

[Classikal]

Not that i dont agree.

That would not solve the problem of THF's knife being forced in our hands, It would just be a matter of Mainhand the new one and offhand THFs Knife.

My idea was to upgrade the knife to be acceptable since its pretty much forced in our hand for most events.

The thing is, you recommended magian trials as a possible way to upgrade the TK. If they did do it that way, it would most likely end up w/ a +1 or a +2 next to the name. Therefore allowing you to offhand a 2nd TK.

And most LS would probably be forcing alot of THF's to do that. If you wanted to keep Treasure Hunter" only in the offhand, it would more than likely have to be done with synergy, or not at all.

I for one hate using TK, but understanding it's value, I bite the bullet as needed.

[Nynja]

You make it sound like its impossible to code a restriction disallowing the equipping of TK and "TK+1"....see: grips, Novennial gear, cloaks, expendible thrown ammo/ranged (cant equip raider bommerang and thew bomblet)

[Nebo]

I would rather they made it a piece of gear than a weapon. I like the idea that I saw of a ring with "Latent effect: Treasure Hunter +1" and that latent is not equiping TK.

It doesn't matter how good a new dagger is, it will still end up being a situation where it is inferior to other daggers and we'll be swapping it anyway.

If they do decided to address this in some way, I would much rather we weren't tied to the weapon slot for TH enhancing as a part of the solution...but that's just me.

[Karbuncle]

The thing is, you recommended magian trials as a possible way to upgrade the TK. If they did do it that way, it would most likely end up w/ a +1 or a +2 next to the name. Therefore allowing you to offhand a 2nd TK.

Haven't suggested Magian trials in like, 12 pages... I mean really. So far the best solution we have is a Piece of Armor with a latent effect that is TH+1 when THF's knife is not equipped. Solves the problem from every possible angle.

I keep the other stuff in the OP simply as a means of choice, if SE is like "no no, not that" i want the other options to be there so maybe they'll chose one..


And most LS would probably be forcing alot of THF's to do that. If you wanted to keep Treasure Hunter" only in the offhand, it would more than likely have to be done with synergy, or not at all.

Synergy was also suggested. By me. Something we've moved away from a bit, as its not a perfect solution.

So far, as you neglected to mention, the best option is what we've stated above. a piece of Armor (Thus,, can be switched out at will with no TP lost) that has a latent that only works when THF knife is not equipped.

Literally solves every possible problem. Which is why its the only one most of us actually agree on.

[Retsujo]

I'm no THF, but as far as I can recall, THF's new TH "proc" system procs whatever TH you have equipped when you first give enmity to a monster. From there you have a chance to proc TH a tier higher, up to Lv10. I may be mistaken, but can't you unequip all TH gear after gaining a value of enmity and it still be that tier of TH?

I KNOW this works once you've proc'd TH into that first tier higher than you have equipped, but - assuming you have traits/gear up to TH6 - can't you just hit it and it have TH6? If I'm right, then having a piece of gear with a latent of TH while not wearing Thief's knife would be a little silly. Just hit the monster once then change weapons. TP shouldn't really be an issue with THF.

[Nebo]

I'm no THF, but as far as I can recall, THF's new TH "proc" system procs whatever TH you have equipped when you first give enmity to a monster. From there you have a chance to proc TH a tier higher, up to Lv10. I may be mistaken, but can't you unequip all TH gear after gaining a value of enmity and it still be that tier of TH?

I KNOW this works once you've proc'd TH into that first tier higher than you have equipped, but - assuming you have traits/gear up to TH6 - can't you just hit it and it have TH6? If I'm right, then having a piece of gear with a latent of TH while not wearing Thief's knife would be a little silly. Just hit the monster once then change weapons. TP shouldn't really be an issue with THF.

10/10

I lol'ed.

[Arcon]

TP shouldn't really be an issue with THF.

That is the entire issue and it's the sole reason why this thread was created. This stuff is "TH mechanics 101", everyone here knows that, but that has nothing to do with the problem at hand, which is losing TP on swapping weapons. Many people in here feel that infringes on their already very scarce DD rights.

[Falseliberty]

I'm no THF, but as far as I can recall, THF's new TH "proc" system procs whatever TH you have equipped when you first give enmity to a monster. From there you have a chance to proc TH a tier higher, up to Lv10. I may be mistaken, but can't you unequip all TH gear after gaining a value of enmity and it still be that tier of TH?

I KNOW this works once you've proc'd TH into that first tier higher than you have equipped, but - assuming you have traits/gear up to TH6 - can't you just hit it and it have TH6? If I'm right, then having a piece of gear with a latent of TH while not wearing Thief's knife would be a little silly. Just hit the monster once then change weapons. TP shouldn't really be an issue with THF.

u think its ok to lose your tp?

if any other job here had to lose there tp there would be outrage

in before we are thfs and thats our job.
/old fart rant mode on
we was invited to pts back in the day cuz we closed distortion,did big damage and controlled hate and had a decent time keeping up with dot and SC with other DD

I remember when war wasnt wanted in XP pts cuz its not an "advanced job.. didnt have good SC options" but i knew better and met sum great wars that showed me rampage and the other things they got.
/old fart rant mode off

and yeah get rid of thf's knife SE. All its ever done is make drama, create bots to camp it and nerf our dot

[FrankReynolds]

.......... something stupid

I know that nobody has time to read alllllllllll the posts, but please try to at least read the first one.

[Retsujo]

As I said, I'm no THF and only stated an idea/opinion from a standpoint outside of career Thieves. I obviously don't 'get it' which is why I asked ^^;

I also wasn't thinking about multiple mobs in succession, just the big, long fights against one mob at a time. Now I understand :D

[CapriciousOne]

If you don't know why losing 10~90 TP just to switch weapons, and you don't know how significantly that impacts your damage, let alone how significantly using a THF's knife impacts your damage, I cannot help you or explain it well enough, thusly i will no try.

However do understand, Every THF hear realizes, on longer fights, You can easily hit a Mob and put on full TH, then take the Knife off, the problem is Farming in places like Dynamis or Limbus where every single mob you'll want your fullest TH on, and switching on/off the knife before every kill/fight is where a problem comes in.


1. I dont understand why one needs to switch out the knife in the first place since most of a ws damage is done with the weapon in main hand which i imagine isnt the Thief Knife in the first place. The offhand weapon only attacks after the ws is executed anyway.

2. if you near 100% tp why the hell are you such an idiot and dont just use Dancing edge at 100% tp then perform the switch if u need to greatly reducing the tp loss in the first place. Especially isnce tp only affects accuracy and not damage.

3. if damage is really such an issue if your main weapon dmg is like 45 and thief knife is like 28 than u are still doing like an average of 36dmg/weapon. sure it isnt as good as say two daggers with the same damage but it is barely noticeable unless you fighting nm that are paladin with high defenses like nm crabs or something so wtf is everybody whining about? plus you could always use meat mithkabobs to increase damage further as well not to mention the other attack and strenght boosts as well

4. You really dont need to equip the thief knife at all with the mod they made to theif main job where ur TH effectiveness increases with more consecutive hits landed so investing in more accuracy gear could also be an alternative solution though they are rather few but dont sushi foods or something boost that as well? Also the effectiveness remains as long as u stay in the zone as well doesnt it if i remember correctly like composoure and phalanx of RDM

In any case i'm just saying, lol

[FrankReynolds]

1. I dont understand why one needs to switch out the knife in the first place since most of a ws damage is done with the weapon in main hand which i imagine isnt the Thief Knife in the first place. The offhand weapon only attacks after the ws is executed anyway.

2. if you near 100% tp why the hell are you such an idiot and dont just use Dancing edge at 100% tp then perform the switch if u need to greatly reducing the tp loss in the first place. Especially isnce tp only affects accuracy and not damage.

3. if damage is really such an issue if your main weapon dmg is like 45 and thief knife is like 28 than u are still doing like an average of 36dmg/weapon. sure it isnt as good as say two daggers with the same damage but it is barely noticeable unless you fighting nm that are paladin with high defenses like nm crabs or something so wtf is everybody whining about? plus you could always use meat mithkabobs to increase damage further as well not to mention the other attack and strenght boosts as well

4. You really dont need to equip the thief knife at all with the mod they made to theif main job where ur TH effectiveness increases with more consecutive hits landed so investing in more accuracy gear could also be an alternative solution though they are rather few but dont sushi foods or something boost that as well? Also the effectiveness remains as long as u stay in the zone as well doesnt it if i remember correctly like composoure and phalanx of RDM

In any case i'm just saying, lol

Going from 45-36 damage is actually pretty bad. Also, that's not how treasure hunter works. Everyone here is very clear on what the stats of the dagger are, and how to swap out a weapon. The point of the thread is that doing so is detrimental to job performance (however insignificant you may think it is, it is still a detriment). If any other job had this sort of situation suddenly imposed on them, there would be torches and pitchforks outside the home of the developer that did it. Its a minor improvement to a job that could use some love. It wouldn't hurt any other job. It wouldn't be hard to design. It would however show that the devs do actually care a little.

[Insaniac]

1. I dont understand why one needs to switch out the knife in the first place since most of a ws damage is done with the weapon in main hand which i imagine isnt the Thief Knife in the first place. The offhand weapon only attacks after the ws is executed anyway.

2. if you near 100% tp why the hell are you such an idiot and dont just use Dancing edge at 100% tp then perform the switch if u need to greatly reducing the tp loss in the first place. Especially isnce tp only affects accuracy and not damage.

3. if damage is really such an issue if your main weapon dmg is like 45 and thief knife is like 28 than u are still doing like an average of 36dmg/weapon. sure it isnt as good as say two daggers with the same damage but it is barely noticeable unless you fighting nm that are paladin with high defenses like nm crabs or something so wtf is everybody whining about? plus you could always use meat mithkabobs to increase damage further as well not to mention the other attack and strenght boosts as well

4. You really dont need to equip the thief knife at all with the mod they made to theif main job where ur TH effectiveness increases with more consecutive hits landed so investing in more accuracy gear could also be an alternative solution though they are rather few but dont sushi foods or something boost that as well? Also the effectiveness remains as long as u stay in the zone as well doesnt it if i remember correctly like composoure and phalanx of RDM

In any case i'm just saying, lol
This is the kind of post that I don't even know if I should reply to.

1. Depending on the offhand you are using you could be losing out on any number of things. TP bonus, STR/DEX +10 acc att crit damage triple attack et. ect. Very important things.

2. The problem comes in when you are fighting things that are often dead before you hit 100% and a stacked WS would 1 shot.

3. This is nonsense. The DPS hit you take from off-handing a TK is massive.

4. This is so insanely incorrect. I don't know why you are posting here when you don't have the slightest clue how TH works.

[Arcon]

This is the kind of post that I don't even know if I should reply to.

Posts like his are a great injustice. Either you reply, which is wasting your breath on someone who doesn't deserve any, or you don't, and a post like that stays in front, which is an insult to everyone else's intelligence. I only wish whoever even reads part of his post realizes, that this forum sadly doesn't require half a brain to sign up on.

[Vold]

1. I dont understand why one needs to switch out the knife in the first place since most of a ws damage is done with the weapon in main hand which i imagine isnt the Thief Knife in the first place. The offhand weapon only attacks after the ws is executed anyway.

2. if you near 100% tp why the hell are you such an idiot and dont just use Dancing edge at 100% tp then perform the switch if u need to greatly reducing the tp loss in the first place. Especially isnce tp only affects accuracy and not damage.

3. if damage is really such an issue if your main weapon dmg is like 45 and thief knife is like 28 than u are still doing like an average of 36dmg/weapon. sure it isnt as good as say two daggers with the same damage but it is barely noticeable unless you fighting nm that are paladin with high defenses like nm crabs or something so wtf is everybody whining about? plus you could always use meat mithkabobs to increase damage further as well not to mention the other attack and strenght boosts as well

4. You really dont need to equip the thief knife at all with the mod they made to theif main job where ur TH effectiveness increases with more consecutive hits landed so investing in more accuracy gear could also be an alternative solution though they are rather few but dont sushi foods or something boost that as well? Also the effectiveness remains as long as u stay in the zone as well doesnt it if i remember correctly like composoure and phalanx of RDM

In any case i'm just saying, lol

Okay, let's see here...


http://files6.fliiby.com/images/_thumbs/tn_bxf2whqlgj1.jpgSay whaaaaaaaaaaa

[CapriciousOne]

This is the kind of post that I don't even know if I should reply to.

1. Depending on the offhand you are using you could be losing out on any number of things. TP bonus, STR/DEX +10 acc att crit damage triple attack et. ect. Very important things.

2. The problem comes in when you are fighting things that are often dead before you hit 100% and a stacked WS would 1 shot.

3. This is nonsense. The DPS hit you take from off-handing a TK is massive.

4. This is so insanely incorrect. I don't know why you are posting here when you don't have the slightest clue how TH works.

1. From the original post I was under the impression that the TK wasn't being equipped for the entire duration of the fights. I also was making an assumption that a person would go for direct accuracy and attack boost over STR/DEX since only half of the stat actually goes to attack/accuracy anyway therefore more expensive to me but I suppose it still can be effective when str is compared to vit or dex to agi. I also made the assumption that triple attack % would be merited as well as critical hit and a person would have access to Assassin Charge so those wouldnt be as much of an issue. My fault for making those assumptions. In additon I dont really use anything that boost stats beside the pepto bismal armor from abyssea so I'm USED to doing WITHOUT those things on the regular.

2. Ok good point but I usually just dont ws and save the tp until reaching a decent mob to use it on then WS, then switch but that may not work for everybody I suppose.

3. Again making another erroneous assumption of being in the party and other ppl are still dealing damage along side with you. In the grand party damage/attack round 9 dmg/ attack round isnt that bad and even solo with thief high evasion and probably all the other evasion gear i'm sure many other ppl have as well. Again my fault for assuming but I guess i'm one of those ppl that have grown comfortable with dealing less damage and enduring longer battles as a result but not everybody has the stomach or patience for that so my mistake.

4. I was confusing how TH actually works versus how I would like it to work and have been lobbying for this change to TH alot lately. In any case I wasnt talking about the TH trait itself but the new effectiveness increases that raises TH 3 to 4 to 5 and so on if you are main thief without any equipment like the TK. Again sorry if I wasnt clear/specific enough.

[CapriciousOne]

Posts like his are a great injustice. Either you reply, which is wasting your breath on someone who doesn't deserve any, or you don't, and a post like that stays in front, which is an insult to everyone else's intelligence. I only wish whoever even reads part of his post realizes, that this forum sadly doesn't require half a brain to sign up on.

........NVM [Ignore the ignorant]

[FrankReynolds]

1. From the original post I was under the impression that the TK wasn't being equipped for the entire duration of the fights. I also was making an assumption that a person would go for direct accuracy and attack boost over STR/DEX since only half of the stat actually goes to attack/accuracy anyway therefore more expensive to me but I suppose it still can be effective when str is compared to vit or dex to agi. I also made the assumption that triple attack % would be merited as well as critical hit and a person would have access to Assassin Charge so those wouldnt be as much of an issue. My fault for making those assumptions. In additon I dont really use anything that boost stats beside the pepto bismal armor from abyssea so I'm USED to doing WITHOUT those things on the regular.

2. Ok good point but I usually just dont ws and save the tp until reaching a decent mob to use it on then WS, then switch but that may not work for everybody I suppose.

3. Again making another erroneous assumption of being in the party and other ppl are still dealing damage along side with you. In the grand party damage/attack round 9 dmg/ attack round isnt that bad and even solo with thief high evasion and probably all the other evasion gear i'm sure many other ppl have as well. Again my fault for assuming but I guess i'm one of those ppl that have grown comfortable with dealing less damage and enduring longer battles as a result but not everybody has the stomach or patience for that so my mistake.

4. I was confusing how TH actually works versus how I would like it to work and have been lobbying for this change to TH alot lately. In any case I wasnt talking about the TH trait itself but the new effectiveness increases that raises TH 3 to 4 to 5 and so on if you are main thief without any equipment like the TK. Again sorry if I wasnt clear/specific enough.

1. There is no assumption that will change the fact that equipping thief knife for however short of a duration == less damage.

2. Your hurting your damage even more by doing this.

3. Other people being in your party doesn't make it OK to suck.

4. Less TH is less TH no matter how you slice it. Starting out at a lower number will always mean you end at a lower number.

Please delete or change your posts. We really don't want anyone reading them and thinking that is how things work.

[Arcon]

You basically said that you assumed everyone doesn't mind being gimp. You assumed wrong. And..


........NVM [Ignore the ignorant]

.. that's not ignoring.

[Insaniac]

1. From the original post I was under the impression that the TK wasn't being equipped for the entire duration of the fights. I also was making an assumption that a person would go for direct accuracy and attack boost over STR/DEX since only half of the stat actually goes to attack/accuracy anyway therefore more expensive to me but I suppose it still can be effective when str is compared to vit or dex to agi. I also made the assumption that triple attack % would be merited as well as critical hit and a person would have access to Assassin Charge so those wouldnt be as much of an issue. My fault for making those assumptions. In additon I dont really use anything that boost stats beside the pepto bismal armor from abyssea so I'm USED to doing WITHOUT those things on the regular.

2. Ok good point but I usually just dont ws and save the tp until reaching a decent mob to use it on then WS, then switch but that may not work for everybody I suppose.

3. Again making another erroneous assumption of being in the party and other ppl are still dealing damage along side with you. In the grand party damage/attack round 9 dmg/ attack round isnt that bad and even solo with thief high evasion and probably all the other evasion gear i'm sure many other ppl have as well. Again my fault for assuming but I guess i'm one of those ppl that have grown comfortable with dealing less damage and enduring longer battles as a result but not everybody has the stomach or patience for that so my mistake.

4. I was confusing how TH actually works versus how I would like it to work and have been lobbying for this change to TH alot lately. In any case I wasnt talking about the TH trait itself but the new effectiveness increases that raises TH 3 to 4 to 5 and so on if you are main thief without any equipment like the TK. Again sorry if I wasnt clear/specific enough.You know very very little about THF and this game. When you see a topic like this that you don't really understand, instead of taking the time replying to it using your gut you should learn about the conversation we are having before you decide to take part in it and end up being wrong on a level that is rarely seen.

[CapriciousOne]

1. There is no assumption that will change the fact that equipping thief knife for however short of a duration == less damage.

2. Your hurting your damage even more by doing this.

3. Other people being in your party doesn't make it OK to suck.

4. Less TH is less TH no matter how you slice it. Starting out at a lower number will always mean you end at a lower number.

Please delete or change your posts. We really don't want anyone reading them and thinking that is how things work.

1. No arguments here totally agree
2. I disagree if the mob is so weak that using a ws can one shot it with the ws and also preventing th from procing on the mob then to me that is a viable solution since it will probably be dead in like 30 seconds anyway for the nexxt mob. You are effectively saving that damage for the next mob and still giving a chance to maximize drops.
3. Assuming one is dual wielding going from 80 damage between 2 daggers to 71 damage from 2 daggers is hardly sucking and is still considerably contributing to killing the mob and building tp all the same unless either of the weapons have some sort of latent or additional effect like "occassionally attacks 2 -4 times" and that isnt even counting the natural triple attack with or without merits.
4. That is why I wish they expand the effectiveness effect of main thief to the entire zone and not just the mob like how composure where it only wears off after 2 hrs or when you zone so people can just do away with the knife altogether

As for the rest of that I will neither delete or change any of my posts as nothing I said is politically incorrect, racist, sexist, agist, derrogatory, hate speech or anything else protected by law and well simply put you dont run me. Take it up with the mod or something because that is the only way it is getting changed or deleted. -_-

[noodles355]

How you play down "You only lose a bit of DMG" is beyond me. Also how are you going from 80DMG to 71DMG? Swapping out a STR Kila+3 to a Thief's Knife loses 17DMG and 10STR. The 10STR will equate to another 2-3DMG meaning you're losing 19-20DMG, and the 17DMG on the weapon means you drop 2 weapon ranks on that offhand wepon. That is absolutely huge. Playing it down so much like you are suggests you have done no research into how the game works.

[Arcon]

How you play down "You only lose a bit of DMG" is beyond me. Also how are you going from 80DMG to 71DMG? Swapping out a STR Kila+3 to a Thief's Knife loses 17DMG and 10STR. The 10STR will equate to another 2-3DMG meaning you're losing 19-20DMG, and the 17DMG on the weapon means you drop 2 weapon ranks on that offhand wepon. That is absolutely huge. Playing it down so much like you are suggests you have done no research into how the game works.

Not only that, this is still Lv95. At 99, and further down the road, more better daggers will be available. However, the fact that Thief's Knife has TH on it won't change. Which means, to get the most out of TH, we'll be forced to gimp our damage more and more with every further update. He's completely understating everything without any evidence at all.

[FrankReynolds]

1. No arguments here totally agree
2. I disagree if the mob is so weak that using a ws can one shot it with the ws and also preventing th from procing on the mob then to me that is a viable solution since it will probably be dead in like 30 seconds anyway for the nexxt mob. You are effectively saving that damage for the next mob and still giving a chance to maximize drops.


If it dies in 30 seconds, you are not procing any treasure hunter increases after the initial hit. If it take longer to kill, you should have wsed.


3. Assuming one is dual wielding going from 80 damage between 2 daggers to 71 damage from 2 daggers is hardly sucking and is still considerably contributing to killing the mob and building tp all the same unless either of the weapons have some sort of latent or additional effect like "occassionally attacks 2 -4 times" and that isnt even counting the natural triple attack with or without merits.

See noodles post below


4. That is why I wish they expand the effectiveness effect of main thief to the entire zone and not just the mob like how composure where it only wears off after 2 hrs or when you zone so people can just do away with the knife altogether

At least we agree that the knife sucks.


As for the rest of that I will neither delete or change any of my posts as nothing I said is politically incorrect, racist, sexist, agist, derrogatory, hate speech or anything else protected by law and well simply put you dont run me. Take it up with the mod or something because that is the only way it is getting changed or deleted. -_-

I didn't tell you to change / delete it because it was derogatory, inflammatory (although judging by the responses it is to thiefs), racist, or sexist. You should delete / change it so that other people don't get the impression that it is true, and end up looking silly on another thread by repeating it. However, if you just like evoking angry responses and spreading fodder, by all means continue. Just know that everyone wants you to stop.

[CapriciousOne]

You basically said that you assumed everyone doesn't mind being gimp. You assumed wrong. And..



.. that's not ignoring.

I guess I need to rephrase that for clarity sake. What I am saying is that not every has access to or even want or feel a need for the best armor to get things done. Sure it probably would be best and wise but that doesnt exactly mean it is necessary to have. I guess I am just a glutton for pain though and don't expect others to endure what I do but I like experience near death victories myself and feel like I earned the kill instead of flat out owning mobs.

And that was apparently a failed attempt at humor BUT considering the lengthy post I had typed up before I deleted it and just posted that it kind of is ignoring him for me considering that fact.

[CapriciousOne]

How you play down "You only lose a bit of DMG" is beyond me. Also how are you going from 80DMG to 71DMG? Swapping out a STR Kila+3 to a Thief's Knife loses 17DMG and 10STR. The 10STR will equate to another 2-3DMG meaning you're losing 19-20DMG, and the 17DMG on the weapon means you drop 2 weapon ranks on that offhand wepon. That is absolutely huge. Playing it down so much like you are suggests you have done no research into how the game works.

Sorry I didnt respond sooner as I didnt see this post way down here. If one is referring to the individual damage you are dealing yes 17 dmg is alot of damage but come on most of the time you will only use the dagger for a few hits anyway before unequipping it for it to not really be that big of an issue. The only thing I will say and admit is I am unsure of what happens when u unequip the dagger after procing to a higher TH level. For instance if with the dagger equip I am at TH4 and I proc to TH level 5 then unequip the dagger will the TH level reset? I never noticed this because usually I never unequip the dagger in the first place if the goal is to increase the chance of a specific drop. Again I am probably more willing to accept the lower damage trade of to increase my chances of the drop so I dont have to be bothered with that mob again if I dont have to than other people so I can understand people wanting to unequip the dagger back for more damage. An alternative would be to increase your attack with meat mithkabobs but not everybody has cooking that high i imagine or want to either.

In any case I was including the fact of have Triple attack rate merited up, as well as miscellanenous gear and having assassin's charge for on demand triple attack as well. For the most part auto attack is nothing but a "place holder" for WS where the real damage is dealt anyway which is what everybody want to do anyway. Because I image most ppl just want to Dancing Edge, Evisceration, and Rudra's Storm their way to victory, the auto attack damage dealt is less of an issue anyway since the tp gain rate kind of averages its way out with the exception of "occasionally attack" stuff and latent effect stuff where the damage increases. The overall auto attack damage dealt is still relatively high when you factor in all those things especially when you are dual wielding and triple attack has the chance of procing for each equiped weapon.

Look I get it everybody wants the most base damage possible but correct me if I am wrong even to this day people still dont exactly consider thief as a "True Damage Dealer" anyway and daggers still have the lowest base damage of all weapons at the same level anyway so wtf is anybody crying about anyway? In addition if we talking about abyssea mobs..... really? With all the atmas and bs that crank up overall damage ... seriously? In any case it isnt about how much you indivdually deal to the mob anyway and people need to put their egos to the side and remember it is about the team working to defeat a common threat. Oh and I didnt even factor in Sneak and Trick attack either since I mainly solo and rarely use it. OOh and omg almost forgot in abyssea how the faster you kill mobs the higher level the mob respawns though there is probably a limit to it that I am not aware of and knowing SE style.

I guess I am just a little more willing to make trade offs and deal with things as they are than maybe other people are and that is why it "seems" as if I down play stuff to you guys as I have a higher tolerance for certain things than other people. For instance if I know the mobs strongest move only deals 600 damage even if it critcal hit I am more willing than most people to leave my around liek 750/1400 hp than others as I know I have the tp to heal back up fast. In fact I get kind of pissed of people use thier mp to heal me before that point, LOL. Guess I probably would be better off as a Paladin then huh, lol.

Oh in additon to all that but you can agree to disagree if you like but if keeping and maintaining damage was important wouldnt you be better off with a "lowers defense+15" dagger anyway than a str and attack stat boost since essentially reducing the mob defense essentially increases not just your damage but the party damage as a whole anyway? I mean everybody is so busy with the "who has the biggest $%%^ contest" over damage that is more important improve the PARTY overall damage than the whole "look at me look at me and the damage I do" bs that they forget about the party. Geez let go of your egos and focus on the party and just take the hit already. The party wont die because the output of the party goes from 550damage per attack round to 533damage from swapping out one little dagger.

[CapriciousOne]

1. If it dies in 30 seconds, you are not procing any treasure hunter increases after the initial hit. If it take longer to kill, you should have wsed.



2. See noodles post below



3. At least we agree that the knife sucks.



4.I didn't tell you to change / delete it because it was derogatory, inflammatory (although judging by the responses it is to thiefs), racist, or sexist. You should delete / change it so that other people don't get the impression that it is true, and end up looking silly on another thread by repeating it. However, if you just like evoking angry responses and spreading fodder, by all means continue. Just know that everyone wants you to stop.

1. Yea it is always a judgement call that is never really easy to make. Sometimes it is a good call sometimes it not such is life.

2. Yea I saw and replied. LOL I'm pretty sure people wont like it but that just how I see things so I'm sure there will be plenty of detractors.

3. Well yes but I was thinking more along the lines as the Treasure Hunter implementation stinks. If it was up to me I would keep the traits as it is as I have no problem with the trait itself and how it works. My concern is how the Treasure Hound effectiveness is implemented an being limited to just the current mob which is the real source of the problem. Personally I think this would be better:

Name: Connoisseur

Increases Treasure Hunter effectiveness and lowers evasion.

Obtained: Thief Level 55
Recast Time: 15:00
Duration: 30-90 minutes
This would prevent it from being accessable as support job and increase drop rates from levels 55-90 when Treasure Hunter III becomes available which is really where all the good stuff to raise your crafts up start to become a factor. It would do just like composure and the effectiveness level wouldn't reset until you zoned. This would render the knife useless yes but then people can quit crying about it and use thier better weapons all the time.

4. Ok well in my short life so far, one thing I have learned is that just is no pleasing people and no really "right" way to say things. Some people will always be offended no matter how you preface or phrase what you say. Even still if there is a right way to say something it still wont change the fact that what is being said will still hurt none the less so at this point in my life I really dont see the point in wasting the energy trying to do that for annonymous people on a forum that I never see in game anyway. While I'm not here to cause a riot, I damn sure am not hear to stroke people egos, kiss a$$ or manage people emotions and reaction to what I say that is their job as a "Mature" adult, NOT MINE.

In any case, despite what it may seem or how it is interpreted some people are determined to see things a certain way no matter how contradictory the evidence presented before them is so save yourself the stress and ignore it.

[CapriciousOne]

You know very very little about THF and this game. When you see a topic like this that you don't really understand, instead of taking the time replying to it using your gut you should learn about the conversation we are having before you decide to take part in it and end up being wrong on a level that is rarely seen.

Seriously why are you talking to me like I care what you have to say. I just love how you assume I dont "understand" THF and this game. Personally I could argue that you and alot of people dont understand THF, this game, RPG and so on and so on but I won't because, believe it or not, I really dont like to assume people are incompetent until they prove it to me. At most my interpretation of all the TH testing stuff I have seen on here an other sites like allakazham or however that is spelled is nice but is still more or less theory and guessing because the only conclusive reason and logic of how TH really works is only really known by SE and unless they put out a full statement specifying the details and conditions of how it works, everything anybody has to say is just theory and nothing more. I havent seen any clear cut statements like this directly from the proverbial horses mouth and that is the only word that matters to me. Until that time as far as I'm concerned I could care less to be honest of how it works because to me the fact is that IT CAN BE BETTER AND SHOULD.

[noodles355]

Sorry I didnt respond sooner as I didnt see this post way down here. If one is referring to the individual damage you are dealing yes 17 dmg is alot of damage but come on most of the time you will only use the dagger for a few hits anyway before unequipping it for it to not really be that big of an issue.If you unequip it after one strike then you will lose TP. If we even assume best case scenario for your argument: Every mob you gain 100%TP and WS once killing the mob - then you'll lose 2 rounds of TP for every WS. (TP return from WS without TK equipped, and then one round of TP with TK equipped, before unequipping again). That's a significant loss in DoT. That's best case scenario. What happens if you kill the mob with melee strikes after WS and end up with 50TP? Do you ditch the 50%TP in order to re-equip the knife? Start doing that and you sacrifice killspeed. Sacrifice killspeed and you end up killing less mobs in that time frame which will infact lead to less drops than if you'd just killed them quicker having a real DD dagger equipped fulltime.

The only time when it is effective to equip TK for the first hit and switch it out are NMs which ill take several rounds of WS to kill.

In response to the rest of your post - TH level remains at the max level. If you equip full TH gear for one hit, then unequip it (or die) then the TH remains at the highest level and TH procs will increase from the highest level.
Secondly, OA2-4 Dagger is a very bad offhand unless you're Aeolian Edge cleaving. It has horrible DPS which offsets the increased WS frequency. The problem with additional effect weapons is the randomness of their effect coupled with low proc rates on any mob that actually matters, and fodder mobs dieing so quickly that a normal Str/Att dagger would equal or better it overtime (as effect probably wont proc on every mob you kill).

In summary:
Your recent arguments seem to be centralised around the idea of "I'm happy with being mediocre". Good for you, it's your monthly fee. But this topic is obviously for people in a different boat - people who aren't happy doing the bare minimum and want to do the best they can. If you don't care to improve yourself, why are you here at all? Upgrading Thief's Knife would be that improvement that people who want to play their best would appreciate. It would also not negatively affect people like you who are happy being mediocre. With that in mind, why argue against it?

[CapriciousOne]

If you unequip it after one strike then you will lose TP. If we even assume best case scenario for your argument: Every mob you gain 100%TP and WS once killing the mob - then you'll lose 2 rounds of TP for every WS. (TP return from WS without TK equipped, and then one round of TP with TK equipped, before unequipping again). That's a significant loss in DoT. That's best case scenario. 1. What happens if you kill the mob with melee strikes after WS and end up with 50TP? Do you ditch the 50%TP in order to re-equip the knife? Start doing that and you sacrifice killspeed. Sacrifice killspeed and you end up killing less mobs in that time frame which will infact lead to less drops than if you'd just killed them quicker having a real DD dagger equipped fulltime.

2. The only time when it is effective to equip TK for the first hit and switch it out are NMs which ill take several rounds of WS to kill.

3. In response to the rest of your post - TH level remains at the max level. If you equip full TH gear for one hit, then unequip it (or die) then the TH remains at the highest level and TH procs will increase from the highest level.
Secondly, OA2-4 Dagger is a very bad offhand unless you're Aeolian Edge cleaving. It has horrible DPS which offsets the increased WS frequency. The problem with additional effect weapons is the randomness of their effect coupled with low proc rates on any mob that actually matters, and fodder mobs dieing so quickly that a normal Str/Att dagger would equal or better it overtime (as effect probably wont proc on every mob you kill).

In summary:
4. Your recent arguments seem to be centralised around the idea of "I'm happy with being mediocre". Good for you, it's your monthly fee. But this topic is obviously for people in a different boat - people who aren't happy doing the bare minimum and want to do the best they can. If you don't care to improve yourself, why are you here at all? Upgrading Thief's Knife would be that improvement that people who want to play their best would appreciate. It would also not negatively affect people like you who are happy being mediocre. With that in mind, why argue against it?

1. I think I mentioned this in an earlier post to Frank about this being a judgement call based on the situation but usually I always keep whatever left over tp for a ws then switch weapons soon after the ws so at max it is usually only like a 15 tp lost which is acceptable for me but maybe not others. Even at worst case scenario, if it >=50% i keep it even if only for healing using CW3 then switch else I keep it for the next weaponskill then switch. This however is not what is being done from reading other post they are doing exactly what you state and completely dropping that accumulated tp to switch to the knife.

2. This is basically what I am expecting to be going on anyway in all these post as regular mobs arent tough enough to survive long enough for decent amount of procs unless solo or low man anyway. Apparently this may not be happening as well according to other post if it is they are severly overpowered for the nm in question to be killing them that fast.

3. Ah good that is what I thought I just never really payed too much attention to it solo because procing is rarely an issue unless people are trying to farm on mobs extremely below thier current level. With this said now though only makes my point even more in that if you have all the gear to increase Treasure Hunter effectiveness and get a proc one can just use the tp at that point and unequip the knife for the remainder of the battle then requip for the next battle.

Now I'll be honest and fair I am a bit lazy to go through with all that is required for those occassionally attack weapons and stuff because I refuse to spend so many hours out my day camping one mob so I dont have one and wouldnt know about those weapons proc rates specifically, however other additional effect weapons I see differently. I dont know how accurate or reliable the article i read was or even where i read it, but it seems that int and mnd has some factor in procing additional effects on weapons. One of the things that lead me to this is that as RDM when dual wielding I seemed to get far more procs than I do with thief with the higher stats their and finished up trials relatively fast even without weather present, at least by my standards it was fast.

4. LOL wow you people and your interpretations are hilarious but it is ok. Ok let me try this again my arguments are based upon the following:
a. everything has a trade off
b. despite the trade offs there is a priority of one over the other.
c. A and B are know entities and the party is being conducted in a fashion that reflects the priority or goal in mind.
d. People care more about the party achieving its objective than how flashy, kick ass, and important the individual output is to the party.

Apparently that doesnt seem to be the case on most of these boards it is usually about outshining other jobs and other pure ego-centric bs. Also it is clear to me that if a mob is dying so fast that you cant even get one proc off it then there is just too much manpower on the mob to start with if obtaining the most loot is the objective as slower kills equal more procs thus more items. I am not actually against the idea as much as I am trying to establish a more productive alternative route to just making a dagger stronger. Even with a stronger dagger it still wont change the fact the effect is only good for the current mob being attacked and then the effect has to be restarted on a new mob. My argument is that instead of just a stronger dagger with only the TH effect on it, why not make it a job ability, the details of which i mentioned earlier and have the effect stay active like composure for the duration you and the party is in the zone, making weapon switching irrelevant as well as improving the overall farming rate for the party as a whole?

In any case if one isnt crazily overpowered with too many people in a party that the mob dies almost instantly and one has the other TH item which I think is O-hat or some other (I forget and havent started on it) thief knife isnt really needed anyway to be honest. Also, ( I wish i could remember where I read this stuff) TH effectiveness increases are closely tied to being able to consistently land blows on mob implying accuracy may help this to proc more often so wouldnt one want an evasion down dagger for that reason, assuming that information was accurate in any way shape or form?

Also I was wondering if more than one thief is in the party and both proc treasure hunter effectiveness levels are they exclusive to the theif or does it apply to the entire party? For example Thief A has TH3 and Thief B has TH4 ok. If Thief B procs to TH5 and later thief A also procs will the TH level remain at 5 or be increased to 6 or does Thief A need to proc again to get it up to 6 (I think I remember TH6 being possible been a while since I did any farming)? If it does increase to 6 when Thief A procs then well you can see where I am going with this hopefully.

In any case I just like to get the job done in any way shape or form and try to find ways to work within the limitations or around it if possible. I dont see that as "being happy with being mediocre" as much as trying to be as resourceful as possible and find ways to get the job done PERIOD, whether I have the best armor, weapons, main/sub combination or anything else. The bottom line is everybody is trying to have thier cake and eat it too which is to be expected I suppose but there are trade offs and concessions that need to be made at times and if lower damage for better drops is what one of those are then so be it.

[noodles355]

1. It's more than 15TP. If you read my last post which you quoted, I covered this: it's 9-15TP from your WS return, then 9TP from your attack round in thief's knife, before swapping back to a real knife - for at least 2 rounds of TP. I did state that above, you quoted it, yet ignored it. If you have excess TP at the start of a fight, what is the cut off limit? What if you have 30TP? Lose 3-4 attack rounds of TP? Or make 7-8 attack rounds with a gimp DPS weapon? Either way it's a loss in DoT resulting in slower kills which means (As has been stated many times) lower drops over time.

3. See my second point, and in fact 90% of the psots replying to you. It's only worthwhile for NMs where you WS more than 2-3 times. For fodder mobs the killspeed you lose by either fulltiming, or swapping in knife once per fight (as outlined multiple times above) will have a greater negative effect on your drops than the +1 TH will have positive. This is why all the best thiefs have stopped using Thief's Knife at all in dynamis coin farming.

4. Your little A>B>C>D thing is actually backing up our argument. People bring thf for TH for drops. Increasing killspeed by using a proper dagger = killing more mobs = getting more drops. As has been mentioned over and over again, it's a bigger increase than the reduced kill speed you suffer by equipping TK every fight. Unless you're bringing like a full party or alliance to farming fodder mobs which is a waste.

As for the rest of your post, I dont see why you needed to go off on some eletist/ego/epeen essay. It's irrelevant and just sounds like you venting and trying to justify your mediocrity.
As I said before, if you are content being mediocre then that's your perogative. It's your monthly fee, play how you want. But others of us enjoy trying to do the best we possibly can. That's our choice, paid for by our monthly fee. Who are you to bitch about it?

Your argument about "instead of making it a weapon, make it an ability" - it's another suggestion. However people have not taken issue with that. People have taken issue with the "it's not an issue, it's not a big DoT loss" statements.

As stated before, you have obviously done very little research at all, and coming into a long discussion with numerous posters having done lots of research into the game and how it works and basically going against them with no supporting arguments is annoying. "only losing 15TP", "going from 80-71 dmg is nothing" "O-hat has TH on it" - and you want us to take you seriously?
Had you taken the time to type Treasure Hunter into Wiki, you would have gotten the answers to your double-thief question, and also to the "do you need to keep it on" question. This again just shows that you have come in ehre without any research whatsoever.

Your closing paragraph continues to ignore the point people have been trying to make throughout this whole conversation. Let me bold it for you: Lowering your damage lowers your drop rate by decreasing killspeed on fodder mobs you farm. You seem to think that you need to equip Thief's Knife to increase drop rates. But you don't. Decreasing your killspeed by equipping Thief's Knife negatively effects your total drops over a period of time (for example, 2 hours in dynamis). Had you done any research at all prior to coming in here and posting, you would understand that.

Go away, do some research then come back when you know what you are talking about and people will take you seriously. If you struggle with that then ask for help, people will always be willing to offer advice to those willing to learn as long as they put in the effort. But if you're going to turn up here arguing with forum regulars and asking questions that could be found in under 1 minute on a wikia search then no one is going to care.

[CapriciousOne]

A1. It's more than 15TP. If you read my last post which you quoted, I covered this: it's 9-15TP from your WS return, then 9TP from your attack round in thief's knife, before swapping back to a real knife - for at least 2 rounds of TP. I did state that above, you quoted it, yet ignored it. If you have excess TP at the start of a fight, what is the cut off limit? What if you have 30TP? Lose 3-4 attack rounds of TP? Or make 7-8 attack rounds with a gimp DPS weapon? Either way it's a loss in DoT resulting in slower kills which means (As has been stated many times) lower drops over time.


B. 3. See my second point, and in fact 90% of the psots replying to you. It's only worthwhile for NMs where you WS more than 2-3 times. For fodder mobs the killspeed you lose by either fulltiming, or swapping in knife once per fight (as outlined multiple times above) will have a greater negative effect on your drops than the +1 TH will have positive. This is why all the best thiefs have stopped using Thief's Knife at all in dynamis coin farming.

C. 4. Your little A>B>C>D thing is actually backing up our argument. People bring thf for TH for drops. Increasing killspeed by using a proper dagger = killing more mobs = getting more drops. As has been mentioned over and over again, it's a bigger increase than the reduced kill speed you suffer by equipping TK every fight. Unless you're bringing like a full party or alliance to farming fodder mobs which is a waste.

As for the rest of your post, I dont see why you needed to go off on some eletist/ego/epeen essay. It's irrelevant and just sounds like you venting and trying to justify your mediocrity.
As I said before, if you are content being mediocre then that's your perogative. It's your monthly fee, play how you want. But others of us enjoy trying to do the best we possibly can. That's our choice, paid for by our monthly fee. Who are you to bitch about it?

D. Your argument about "instead of making it a weapon, make it an ability" - it's another suggestion. However people have not taken issue with that. People have taken issue with the "it's not an issue, it's not a big DoT loss" statements.


E. As stated before, you have obviously done very little research at all, and coming into a long discussion with numerous posters having done lots of research into the game and how it works and basically going against them with no supporting arguments is annoying. "only losing 15TP", "going from 80-71 dmg is nothing" "O-hat has TH on it" - and you want us to take you seriously?

Had you taken the time to type Treasure Hunter into Wiki, you would have gotten the answers to your double-thief question, and also to the "do you need to keep it on" question. This again just shows that you have come in ehre without any research whatsoever.

F. Your closing paragraph continues to ignore the point people have been trying to make throughout this whole conversation. Let me bold it for you: Lowering your damage lowers your drop rate by decreasing killspeed on fodder mobs you farm. You seem to think that you need to equip Thief's Knife to increase drop rates. But you don't. Decreasing your killspeed by equipping Thief's Knife negatively effects your total drops over a period of time (for example, 2 hours in dynamis). Had you done any research at all prior to coming in here and posting, you would understand that.

F. Again you are going solely from the prospective of specific drops but not overall drops which would include crap you not looking for as well. Slower kill = higher TH proc = increased rolls for drops / mob = higher drop rate. You are basing every based on a specific drop rate for a specific item when often times different people need different items even from the same mob. If that is what every body is concerned about then just say the hell with the knife altogether and just kill as many mobs as fast as possible and STFU. Then there is no need to worry about tp loss at all or upgrade it now is there?

Go away, do some research then come back when you know what you are talking about and people will take you seriously. If you struggle with that then ask for help, people will always be willing to offer advice to those willing to learn as long as they put in the effort. But if you're going to turn up here arguing with forum regulars and asking questions that could be found in under 1 minute on a wikia search then no one is going to care.

A. No I read your post correctly because the question you asked is what do I do if I have 50 TP left over and I answered that and you just misread it. Second to wind up with over 50 tp after a ws would require triple attack and your offhand hit to connect in the same attack round which is a rarity at best. On average especially at 100 tp Dancing Edge only connects 3 out of 5 hits for about 15 tp unless one is using the tp bonus+100 dagger to get max acc at only 100 tp. The other thing you miss is i generally wont swap weapons at all if i have more than say 25 tp. I only swap out weapons directly after a ws. In fact I have the swap in the same macro as the ws i tend to use. Keeping the tp you have left over in transition to a new mob would help minimize the loss in kill speed bc soon after you start the battle you could open with a DE doing 600-1000+ damge at the start of battle easily. From what i'm seeing you are assuming that TK is in the main hand when I am not and most ws damage is done with the main hand weapon which should be the higher damage weapon in the first place. If one is using DE and Evisceration Damage is already maxed out at 100tp and the remaining tp only affects accuracy/crit hit respectively

B. Exactly my point why is it being use for anything other than a NM in the first place?

C. Actually I think I said that earlier that the dagger isnt really need anyway beyond that of setting the initial value from which it starts before somebody went off on a tangent about how a thief with a higher tier TH will be used to replace you etc etc but I knew this already and is a non issue for me. I dont even use the knife anymore anyway. For me at least my inventory fills quite fast when the killspeed is reduced as I am getting more multiple drops per mob. The real issue is still what level are the mobs being killed in respect to the party members involved. at level 95 I doubt there are many mobs higher than everybody in the party which is why stuff get killed so fast bc most of the mobs being faced can actually be soloed or even duoed probably. The faster the mob dies the lower the level TH can reach which is why I suggested to reduce the killspeed in the first place to give more of a chance of multiple drops on each mob. I mean it not like in this day and age of all the updates that anybody is really hurting or having difficulty in gaining experience these day for it to matter anyway.

D. This statement was made because of one reason: I am not focusing on the single person damage output but the collective party damage output per attack round against the mob. The fact of the matter is with most parties thief will also be hasted. In addition the weapon in your main hand is primarily used to calculate ws damage and TK should be in offhand anyway making it a non issue for WS damage which the primary reason for auto attack anyway. You still gain tp at relatively the same rate so will WS at about the same rate. Most people rely on WS damage to take huge chunks of HP off a mob. In other words it is not like TK is lowering the damage output of your WS so it isnt a big loss. Also if TP is really an issue there is plenty of tp store and bonus stuff to help. I also dont hesitate to use whatever finishing moves I have to give back tp after a ws to regain lost tp as well.



E. Personally I dont give a crap how you or anybody take anything because 9 times out of 10 it wont be how I meant it anyway despite my best efforts, not that I been making much effort. However anyone takes it is fine by me.
Like i also said a person on average will only average only gain 20 or so tp after DE or evisceration unless triple attack kicks in on the offhand hit and assuming one is dual wielding that 2 or 3 attack round is only a mere what 10-15 seconds at best big whoop or more like maybe 8-12 with haste spell and gear.

F. Again you are going solely from the prospective of specific drops but not overall drops which would include crap you not looking for as well. Slower kill = higher TH proc = increased rolls for drops / mob = higher drop rate. You are basing every based on a specific drop rate for a specific item when often times different people need different items even from the same mob. If that is what every body is concerned about then just say the hell with the knife altogether and just kill as many mobs as fast as possible and STFU. Then there is no need to worry about tp loss at all or upgrade it now is there?

I have done research on it before but do I keep up to date about every development as they happen no and often times it takes forever before anyone does or I care enough to do it myself. Second I wasnt directly asking anybody anything it was more of a pondering or rhetorical question but I thank anybody who has taken the time to answer it. Often times I just dont remember what I read about the "question" being posed which is mostly just me thinking out loud.

[FrankReynolds]

A. No I read your post correctly because the question you asked is what do I do if I have 50 TP left over and I answered that and you just misread it. Second to wind up with over 50 tp after a ws would require triple attack and your offhand hit to connect in the same attack round which is a rarity at best. On average especially at 100 tp Dancing Edge only connects 3 out of 5 hits for about 15 tp unless one is using the tp bonus+100 dagger to get max acc at only 100 tp. The other thing you miss is i generally wont swap weapons at all if i have more than say 25 tp. I only swap out weapons directly after a ws. In fact I have the swap in the same macro as the ws i tend to use. Keeping the tp you have left over in transition to a new mob would help minimize the loss in kill speed bc soon after you start the battle you could open with a DE doing 600-1000+ damge at the start of battle easily. From what i'm seeing you are assuming that TK is in the main hand when I am not and most ws damage is done with the main hand weapon which should be the higher damage weapon in the first place. If one is using DE and Evisceration Damage is already maxed out at 100tp and the remaining tp only affects accuracy/crit hit respectively

B. Exactly my point why is it being use for anything other than a NM in the first place?

C. Actually I think I said that earlier that the dagger isnt really need anyway beyond that of setting the initial value from which it starts before somebody went off on a tangent about how a thief with a higher tier TH will be used to replace you etc etc but I knew this already and is a non issue for me. I dont even use the knife anymore anyway. For me at least my inventory fills quite fast when the killspeed is reduced as I am getting more multiple drops per mob. The real issue is still what level are the mobs being killed in respect to the party members involved. at level 95 I doubt there are many mobs higher than everybody in the party which is why stuff get killed so fast bc most of the mobs being faced can actually be soloed or even duoed probably. The faster the mob dies the lower the level TH can reach which is why I suggested to reduce the killspeed in the first place to give more of a chance of multiple drops on each mob. I mean it not like in this day and age of all the updates that anybody is really hurting or having difficulty in gaining experience these day for it to matter anyway.

D. This statement was made because of one reason: I am not focusing on the single person damage output but the collective party damage output per attack round against the mob. The fact of the matter is with most parties thief will also be hasted. In addition the weapon in your main hand is primarily used to calculate ws damage and TK should be in offhand anyway making it a non issue for WS damage which the primary reason for auto attack anyway. You still gain tp at relatively the same rate so will WS at about the same rate. Most people rely on WS damage to take huge chunks of HP off a mob. In other words it is not like TK is lowering the damage output of your WS so it isnt a big loss. Also if TP is really an issue there is plenty of tp store and bonus stuff to help. I also dont hesitate to use whatever finishing moves I have to give back tp after a ws to regain lost tp as well.



E. Personally I dont give a crap how you or anybody take anything because 9 times out of 10 it wont be how I meant it anyway despite my best efforts, not that I been making much effort. However anyone takes it is fine by me.
Like i also said a person on average will only average only gain 20 or so tp after DE or evisceration unless triple attack kicks in on the offhand hit and assuming one is dual wielding that 2 or 3 attack round is only a mere what 10-15 seconds at best big whoop or more like maybe 8-12 with haste spell and gear.

F. Again you are going solely from the prospective of specific drops but not overall drops which would include crap you not looking for as well. Slower kill = higher TH proc = increased rolls for drops / mob = higher drop rate. You are basing every based on a specific drop rate for a specific item when often times different people need different items even from the same mob. If that is what every body is concerned about then just say the hell with the knife altogether and just kill as many mobs as fast as possible and STFU. Then there is no need to worry about tp loss at all or upgrade it now is there?

I have done research on it before but do I keep up to date about every development as they happen no and often times it takes forever before anyone does or I care enough to do it myself. Second I wasnt directly asking anybody anything it was more of a pondering or rhetorical question but I thank anybody who has taken the time to answer it. Often times I just dont remember what I read about the "question" being posed which is mostly just me thinking out loud.


We get it. You just came in here to piss people off and start an argument. Good job. Major bonus points for slipping in the O-hat thing. That was genius. You will never win this argument, so congratulations on finding a place to forever argue and annoy. FYI, people like you who have no idea how Treasure Hunter work, and love to force their opinions on people are the reason that we have to use that piece of crap dagger, even in situations where its really not necessary.

On a funny side note, you should go to the war or sam forums and try telling them that your swapping out your Great Axe / Great Katana after every WS on war or sam to reset your TP, and see how long it takes people to start calling you names. Then explain to everyone that is just a little TP, and thiefs do it all the time, so whats the big deal?..... Bonus points for posting screen shots of peoples responses.

[Insaniac]

Seriously why are you talking to me like I care what you have to say. I just love how you assume I dont "understand" THF and this game. Personally I could argue that you and alot of people dont understand THF, this game, RPG and so on and so on but I won't because, believe it or not, I really dont like to assume people are incompetent until they prove it to me. At most my interpretation of all the TH testing stuff I have seen on here an other sites like allakazham or however that is spelled is nice but is still more or less theory and guessing because the only conclusive reason and logic of how TH really works is only really known by SE and unless they put out a full statement specifying the details and conditions of how it works, everything anybody has to say is just theory and nothing more. I havent seen any clear cut statements like this directly from the proverbial horses mouth and that is the only word that matters to me. Until that time as far as I'm concerned I could care less to be honest of how it works because to me the fact is that IT CAN BE BETTER AND SHOULD.
I'm not assuming anything about you. I can say for a fact that you don't know enough about damage math or treasure hunter to take part in this conversation and have anything but a negative impact. All you did was come in here and spout some nonsense and it got everyone riled up. You are wrong on a similar level to that of using peanut butter as tooth paste. The good news is the thread is alive again with people who all agree that you have no idea what you are talking about so maybe it will get some attention.

[noodles355]

[COLOR=#006400]A. No I read your post correctly because the question you asked is what do I do if I have 50 TP left over and I answered that and you just misread it.You may have read it, but you misunderstood it. 50TP was one example, you replied to that one example but not to the general problem it addressed which I then further expanded upon. It was one example to show the general problem. Quite why you decided to take that as an absolute, replying to exactly 50TP, I just do not know.


On average especially at 100 tp Dancing Edge only connects 3 out of 5 hits for about 15 tp unless one is using the tp bonus+100 dagger to get max acc at only 100 tp.Holy fuck. You are a complete moron. I'm done trying to be civil with you, you're a giant retard.

[noodles355]

For everyone else's amusement I took the liberty of quoting the most funny and retarded comments into one post for us to laugh at:

In any case if one isnt crazily overpowered with too many people in a party that the mob dies almost instantly and one has the other TH item which I think is O-hat or some other (I forget and havent started on it) thief knife isnt really needed anyway to be honest.

On average especially at 100 tp Dancing Edge only connects 3 out of 5 hits for about 15 tp unless one is using the tp bonus+100 dagger to get max acc at only 100 tp.

If one is using DE and Evisceration Damage is already maxed out at 100tp and the remaining tp only affects accuracy/crit hit respectively

The faster the mob dies the lower the level TH can reach which is why I suggested to reduce the killspeed in the first place to give more of a chance of multiple drops on each mob. I mean it not like in this day and age of all the updates that anybody is really hurting or having difficulty in gaining experience these day for it to matter anyway.

the weapon in your main hand is primarily used to calculate ws damage and TK should be in offhand anyway making it a non issue for WS damage which the primary reason for auto attack anyway. You still gain tp at relatively the same rate so will WS at about the same rate. Most people rely on WS damage to take huge chunks of HP off a mob. In other words it is not like TK is lowering the damage output of your WS so it isnt a big loss. Also if TP is really an issue there is plenty of tp store and bonus stuff to help.

Like i also said a person on average will only average only gain 20 or so tp after DE or evisceration unless triple attack kicks in on the offhand hit and assuming one is dual wielding that 2 or 3 attack round is only a mere what 10-15 seconds at best big whoop or more like maybe 8-12 with haste spell and gear.

Slower kill = higher TH proc = increased rolls for drops / mob = higher drop rate. You are basing every based on a specific drop rate for a specific item when often times different people need different items even from the same mob. If that is what every body is concerned about then just say the hell with the knife altogether and just kill as many mobs as fast as possible and STFU. Then there is no need to worry about tp loss at all or upgrade it now is there?

[TybudX]

http://www.iwatchstuff.com/2008/08/05/jackie-chan.jpg

[CapriciousOne]

You may have read it, but you misunderstood it. 50TP was one example, you replied to that one example but not to the general problem it addressed which I then further expanded upon. It was one example to show the general problem. Quite why you decided to take that as an absolute, replying to exactly 50TP, I just do not know.

Holy fuck. You are a complete moron. I'm done trying to be civil with you, you're a giant retard.

LOL at being civil with me when the fact is I have been doing nothing but be civil with everybody on here but whatever the tp for that specific weapon skill affects the accuracy of it and the likely hood of all 5 hits landing without the help of say SA or TA, the baseline accuracy. TP bonus by itself calculates the damage of the ws as if it was being executed at 200tp and tp bonus +100 does the same with an additional 100 tp bonus for a total of 200 tp bonus so the ws would execute as if it was being done at 300tp, how is that not understood?

I also responded to that specific 50 tp response you gave because the fact is my response is different upon changing circumstances I dont live by a one size fit all situations mentality. That general problem you posed is a non issue for me because of that mentality and is a non issue for me as a result whether its 10, 50 or 85 tp. In any case any additional tp is just used to heal me or a party member so that I can start fresh or switch to another weapon like I do all the time when changing the ws trial on which i'm currently working. In any case fuck you and just continue to have your little problem crying over a few lousy tp or dmg when there is multiple ways to make up for that lost and overall it doesnt affect the party ability to get the job done all that much. I myself dont care all damage is good damage and is more damage dealt than if they werent there at all and every little bit helps to kill the mob.

[noodles355]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/006/491/stop-posting-animated.gif?1311979054

[CapriciousOne]

We get it. You just came in here to piss people off and start an argument. Good job. Major bonus points for slipping in the O-hat thing. That was genius. You will never win this argument, so congratulations on finding a place to forever argue and annoy. FYI, people like you who have no idea how Treasure Hunter work, and love to force their opinions on people are the reason that we have to use that piece of crap dagger, even in situations where its really not necessary.

On a funny side note, you should go to the war or sam forums and try telling them that your swapping out your Great Axe / Great Katana after every WS on war or sam to reset your TP, and see how long it takes people to start calling you names. Then explain to everyone that is just a little TP, and thiefs do it all the time, so whats the big deal?..... Bonus points for posting screen shots of peoples responses.

Well frank you just proved my earlier point you are going to see things how you going to see it no matter what I say to the contrary and that is ok I expect no less of people these days. I simply expressed my views on the issue and what I felt would be a better alternative to resolve what I felt was the real issue with Treasure Hunter, the overall randomness of procing to improve the effectiveness of the trait. The bottom line is whether it is a thief in 2011 or 1830 thief are always searching for a way to maximize their haul and I dont feel this is accurately reflected in the game.

Funny thing to me is that everybody here assumes they know exactly how Treasure Hunter works as if they are the ones who spent the man hours creating the formulas and implementations of it in the game to make these assertions which they didnt. Sure one can speculate based on numerical tabulations of drops of how it SEEMS to affect the drop rate but that isnt the same as saying "treasure hunter works by applying xyz to abc and dividing by 123 and round down" Again short of SE giving the true formula of this so we can see exactly where the trait comes into play and the degree it plays anything anybody say is just that SPECULATION. One cant even really confirm or deny the possibility that weather/day doesnt have any effect on the Treasure Hunter job trait at all or any more than the day/weather against the elemental weakness of the mob itself, yet apparently you guys know best despite none of you work at, with, or for SE?

Another thing you fail to noticed is I NEVER SAID YOU HAVE TO USE IT ESPECIALLY WHEN I DONT EVEN USE IT MYSELF. I merely gave suggestion on if you insist on or are insisted to use it by your party some possible solutions to help deal with the tp loss but ultimate to JUST ACCEPT the fact you will lose tp anyway you cut it. Simply saying you pick one or the other, damage or drop, as it is now until SE does something about and pretty much STFU about it. That was all I was saying and giving my explanation of why I feel that way. It not the best solution to the problem but for not is pretty much the only solution if one must use it.

It isnt my fault you people act like a bunch of brats because somebody opinion may seem so far fetch to you and you decide to act like jackasses getting all "offended" and bs over a GAME and my opinion of a particular aspect of the game that hardly seems a real issue to be whining about anyway. Simply put if you want maximum spoils as it is today you solo and deal with the damage loss and keep the damn knife equipped. If you afraid you'll get owned because you not skilled enough to get the job done with that much of a reduction in damage then ditch the fucking knife. IT REALLY IS THAT DAMN SIMPLE.

Oh and just because you have a few 100 morons nodding "uh huh ok" doesnt make what is being said right. I have always believed in this one quote and it has always held true from my experience:

"WHAT IS POPULAR IS NOT ALWAYS RIGHT, WHAT IS RIGHT IS NOT ALWAYS POPULAR" you all might be wise to remember that, but somehow I doubt it.

[noodles355]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/006/491/stop-posting-animated.gif?1311979054

[SNK]

"WHAT IS POPULAR IS NOT ALWAYS RIGHT, WHAT IS RIGHT IS NOT ALWAYS POPULAR" you all might be wise to remember that, but somehow I doubt it.

It doesn't apply in FFXI tho.

[CapriciousOne]

It doesn't apply in FFXI tho.

acutally it does just many people just really believe in thier own hype and arent willing to consider anything else. There is always multiple solutions to a problem it is just a matter of what a person is willing to tolerate that determines if and how well it would work. To be honest the biggest problem with this game is the player base than the actual game itself for which is why I prefer to solo than be bothered with parties most the time. It get boring doing the same thing the exact same way ALL THE TIME. I find the lack of creativity in rather annoying. Seem everybody is just trying to shove the same drivel down everybody throat and ridicule anything to the contrary. In any case I said what I feel I need to say people can take it how they want laugh, be offended, respond, or ignore. I dont want or need anybody to agree with what I'm saying it was just food for though and nothing more and look at the overreaction. Its sad really guess now I understand why parents make a big fuss over stuff like social communities and stuff because of assholes like them.

[Insaniac]

ITT: I'm not wrong. I'm different.

[Greatguardian]

No, the "problem" you're talking about is most definitely with the game if the best way to do something is miles better than alternative ways to do things.

Know what the difference between a buffed player with no Haste gear (55% total) and a buffed player with Haste gear (80% total) is? A factor of 225%. As in, one player is dealing more than twice as much damage as the other. You damn well better believe people are going to get smashed if they're not wearing Haste gear.

Welcome to FFXI. Conform or be less than half as effective as the guy next to you.

[FrankReynolds]

Well frank you just proved my earlier point you are going to see things how you going to see it no matter what I say to the contrary and that is ok I expect no less of people these days. I simply expressed my views on the issue and what I felt would be a better alternative to resolve what I felt was the real issue with Treasure Hunter, the overall randomness of procing to improve the effectiveness of the trait. The bottom line is whether it is a thief in 2011 or 1830 thief are always searching for a way to maximize their haul and I dont feel this is accurately reflected in the game.

Funny thing to me is that everybody here assumes they know exactly how Treasure Hunter works as if they are the ones who spent the man hours creating the formulas and implementations of it in the game to make these assertions which they didnt. Sure one can speculate based on numerical tabulations of drops of how it SEEMS to affect the drop rate but that isnt the same as saying "treasure hunter works by applying xyz to abc and dividing by 123 and round down" Again short of SE giving the true formula of this so we can see exactly where the trait comes into play and the degree it plays anything anybody say is just that SPECULATION. One cant even really confirm or deny the possibility that weather/day doesnt have any effect on the Treasure Hunter job trait at all or any more than the day/weather against the elemental weakness of the mob itself, yet apparently you guys know best despite none of you work at, with, or for SE?

Another thing you fail to noticed is I NEVER SAID YOU HAVE TO USE IT ESPECIALLY WHEN I DONT EVEN USE IT MYSELF. I merely gave suggestion on if you insist on or are insisted to use it by your party some possible solutions to help deal with the tp loss but ultimate to JUST ACCEPT the fact you will lose tp anyway you cut it. Simply saying you pick one or the other, damage or drop, as it is now until SE does something about and pretty much STFU about it. That was all I was saying and giving my explanation of why I feel that way. It not the best solution to the problem but for not is pretty much the only solution if one must use it.

It isnt my fault you people act like a bunch of brats because somebody opinion may seem so far fetch to you and you decide to act like jackasses getting all "offended" and bs over a GAME and my opinion of a particular aspect of the game that hardly seems a real issue to be whining about anyway. Simply put if you want maximum spoils as it is today you solo and deal with the damage loss and keep the damn knife equipped. If you afraid you'll get owned because you not skilled enough to get the job done with that much of a reduction in damage then ditch the fucking knife. IT REALLY IS THAT DAMN SIMPLE.

Oh and just because you have a few 100 morons nodding "uh huh ok" doesnt make what is being said right. I have always believed in this one quote and it has always held true from my experience:

"WHAT IS POPULAR IS NOT ALWAYS RIGHT, WHAT IS RIGHT IS NOT ALWAYS POPULAR" you all might be wise to remember that, but somehow I doubt it.

It's not opinion. You are absolutely wrong. You are obviously aware that you are wrong and just posting to get the last word and further the debate about ..... nothing. everyone agrees that you are wrong. They don't agree because they all like each other. Most of us don't. They don't agree because they have watched too many TV commercials telling them to. They don't agree because the government is making them. They don't agree because it's the cool thing to do. They agree because you don't know what you are talking about.

No amount of rhetoric, silly quotes, or dime store philosophy is going to make your "opinion" hold true. It is your opinion. It is not the truth. It is just an opinion....and a poor one at that.

[CapriciousOne]

It's not opinion. You are absolutely wrong. You are obviously aware that you are wrong and just posting to get the last word and further the debate about ..... nothing. everyone agrees that you are wrong. They don't agree because they all like each other. Most of us don't. They don't agree because they have watched too many TV commercials telling them to. They don't agree because the government is making them. They don't agree because it's the cool thing to do. They agree because you don't know what you are talking about.

No amount of rhetoric, silly quotes, or dime store philosophy is going to make your "opinion" hold true. It is your opinion. It is not the truth. It is just an opinion....and a poor one at that.

I know exactly what i'm talking about even you guys dont, cant, or won't follow my explanation of it and its only your OPINION that I dont know what I am talking about because YOU fail to understand it because you cant spend one minute stepping out of your own comfortable boring mindset of "HOW THINGS SHOULD BE DONE" as opposed to "WHAT OTHER WAYS CAN THE SAME THING BE ACCOMPLISHED" to see if it is even viable even if it doesnt necessarily suit your style before you even shoot it down. Regardless if it the Thief forum, or Red mage or any other forum it is the exact same bs nevertheless. Hell most of the changes SE proposed to jobs prior to releasing in the official update was shot down and described as "useless" before anybody actually had it in hand to see how it works and how it could be used with other know abilities and were so adamant about it as well. The thing that is really is killing this game isnt the game itself it is the bullheaded inflexible and unresourceful playerbase that pushes people away. I would just suggest SE just shut this crap down but that would only mean you jerk offs would just migrate to and destroy other good games as well. I rather have you guys isolated in one place then spread your mayhem.

[Insaniac]

What you posted had nothing to do with play style. You posted some things as facts that were 100% wrong and now you are playing the victim acting like you posted an opinion about how things should be and people jumped all over you for not conforming. You said you don't lose much by off handing TK. 100% wrong. You posted that TH works in some outlandish way which was 100% wrong and then tried to play it off like that was an idea you had one day that somehow replaced the truth of how TH actually works. I'm not talking about how much it increases drop rates which is still speculative. I'm talking about the cold hard facts that we absolutely know for 100% certain which you did not and from what I can tell still do not understand. If you put half the effort into learning game mechanics that you do into making long winded posts arguing about some vague concept of open mindedness we would all be much better off.

[FrankReynolds]

I know exactly what i'm talking about even you guys dont, cant, or won't follow my explanation of it and its only your OPINION that I dont know what I am talking about because YOU fail to understand it because you cant spend one minute stepping out of your own comfortable boring mindset of "HOW THINGS SHOULD BE DONE" as opposed to "WHAT OTHER WAYS CAN THE SAME THING BE ACCOMPLISHED" to see if it is even viable even if it doesnt necessarily suit your style before you even shoot it down. Regardless if it the Thief forum, or Red mage or any other forum it is the exact same bs nevertheless. Hell most of the changes SE proposed to jobs prior to releasing in the official update was shot down and described as "useless" before anybody actually had it in hand to see how it works and how it could be used with other know abilities and were so adamant about it as well. The thing that is really is killing this game isnt the game itself it is the bullheaded inflexible and unresourceful playerbase that pushes people away. I would just suggest SE just shut this crap down but that would only mean you jerk offs would just migrate to and destroy other good games as well. I rather have you guys isolated in one place then spread your mayhem.

See... thing is, there's a huge hole in your "everyone is just mean and closed minded" theory. Your method of wasting tp and fighting in crappy gear has been tested, documented, and proven to suck. We aren't just shooting down your ideas out of spite. The resourcefulness you call in to question should be your own. there are spread sheets and tests linked all over this website that have been created by the closed minded unresourceful. You are the one who is not resourceful enough to look them up and understand them. There are plenty of different ways to achieve most goals. Not all of them are good (ie. the ones you have described).

[Nynja]

I've fought Behemoth solely from SA/TA strikes...most I got was TH10, and it took close to a half hour, and I didnt get the KB item either.

[SpankWustler]

I know exactly what i'm talking about even you guys dont, cant, or won't follow my explanation of it and its only your OPINION that I dont know what I am talking about because YOU fail to understand it because you cant spend one minute stepping out of your own comfortable boring mindset of "HOW THINGS SHOULD BE DONE" as opposed to "WHAT OTHER WAYS CAN THE SAME THING BE ACCOMPLISHED" to see if it is even viable even if it doesnt necessarily suit your style before you even shoot it down. Regardless if it the Thief forum, or Red mage or any other forum it is the exact same bs nevertheless. Hell most of the changes SE proposed to jobs prior to releasing in the official update was shot down and described as "useless" before anybody actually had it in hand to see how it works and how it could be used with other know abilities and were so adamant about it as well. The thing that is really is killing this game isnt the game itself it is the bullheaded inflexible and unresourceful playerbase that pushes people away. I would just suggest SE just shut this crap down but that would only mean you jerk offs would just migrate to and destroy other good games as well. I rather have you guys isolated in one place then spread your mayhem.

No amount of indignation is going to add Treasure Hunter to Optical Hat or make killing stuff in Dynamis or Abyssea more slowly a good idea.

Part of being flexible and resourceful is knowing what to keep and what to throw away. Just as a camper doesn't pack up his or her camp fire every morning so he or she can suffer horrible burns throughout the day; the best way to use Thief's Knife is most often not to use it.

The thing is...people WANT Thief's Knife (or something similar) to be a viable option again, and this is where it gets funny. You're posting about people not considering all options, while making an argument against a presently near-useless option being made worthwhile.

Well, unless you only use Thief for fighting Fafnir until he makes like a proper Southern belle and offers you a cup of sweet tea. I guess Thief's Knife is still just awesome if that's the case.

Edit: I love how Nynja made a post about how drops are still disappointing even with tons of Treasure Hunter, in the very situation I mentioned as one somebody might currently choose to use the Thief's Knife.

Shine on, disappointing drop rates. Shine on with a dark un-light that destroys all hope.

[CapriciousOne]

1.No amount of indignation is going to add Treasure Hunter to Optical Hat or make killing stuff in Dynamis or Abyssea more slowly a good idea.

2. Part of being flexible and resourceful is knowing what to keep and what to throw away. Just as a camper doesn't pack up his or her camp fire every morning so he or she can suffer horrible burns throughout the day; the best way to use Thief's Knife is most often not to use it.

3. The thing is...people WANT Thief's Knife (or something similar) to be a viable option again, and this is where it gets funny. You're posting about people not considering all options, while making an argument against a presently near-useless option being made worthwhile.

Well, 4. unless you only use Thief for fighting Fafnir until he makes like a proper Southern belle and offers you a cup of sweet tea. I guess Thief's Knife is still just awesome if that's the case.

Edit: I love how Nynja made a post about how drops are still disappointing even with tons of Treasure Hunter, in the very situation I mentioned as one somebody might currently choose to use the Thief's Knife.

Shine on, disappointing drop rates. Shine on with a dark un-light that destroys all hope.

1. Why does everybody keep repeating this when I made it blatantly clear of my uncertainty of the name of the hat I was referring to. I said O-hat because that is the only hat item I remember having a discussion with a buddy who no longer plays anymore a while ago and it was the easiest hat for me to remember because lots of people used to talk about that and I just forgot the reason why especially since I rarely hear it mentioned any more. I was wrong about the name of the hat big fucking deal quit beating a dead horse like a geek already.

2. The keyword in that entire sentence is USEFUL. What item(s) any two people find USEFUL is totally dependent on the individual goals of the person being ask and how well they feel that item helps them to achieve that goal. That being said what two people find useful isn't universal. Even still if two people do find the same items useful that doesnt necessary mean they see it as necessary to have and actually use. Sure I find plenty of items on AH that COULD be useful but I dont work to get them because I've found ways to get what I need done without it.

3. I am not against people wanting the knife. All I was saying is that the knife is still useful as is if one has the stomach to deal with the reduce damage which most peopld just dont have. If a person really wants the drop they need to just accept the damage reduction and STFU otherwise ditch the knife. Also as far as I'm concerned even with a boost in the base DMG the knife will still be useless as far as my play style beyond the initial activation of it because the proc to make the level higher is still random and as the tier continues to go up the proc rate to raise it higher gets less and less. In otherwords I prefer to try and get the highest proc level as much as i can on each mob with slower kills to accomplish this which again differs from everybody else is fine. My personal issue is all the bullshit criticizing because I'm not the always in the hurry kill kill mode many people are in constantly. I personally like long drawn out fights myself to a degree. Killing shit fast is rather boring especially when it a NM that supposed to be all super strong and shit but at the same time I shouldn't require a timesheet to be punched to kill a mob either. I dont care if you or anybody like, agree or approve, that just me.

4. In a earliery post I'm sure you missed, I made it clear I dont even use the thief knife. In fact every since they implemented the whole thief effectiveness increases for main thief my Thief knife has sat in storage every since. I routinely fight mobs near and even above my level with my fellow present so the battle takes longer and I can get more procs and not have to worry about switching out weapons and losing tp just for that damn knife.

[Lokithor]

FGS everyone, give it a rest. This debate has all the intelligence, wit and dynamics of a grade school playground argument where each child believes they need the last word.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

[Karbuncle]

My Doctor diagnosed me with a Brain Tumor after reading the last page.

Thanks guys.

[SpankWustler]

My Doctor diagnosed me with a Brain Tumor after reading the last page.

Thanks guys.

I choose to read this as "My doctor read the last page, and it filled him with such sadness and anger that he gave me a brain tumor using the power of his medically trained mind."

[Babekeke]

Where is big Billy Goat Gruff when you need him?

[CapriciousOne]

FGS everyone, give it a rest. This debate has all the intelligence, wit and dynamics of a grade school playground argument where each child believes they need the last word.

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

Thank you for being about the only mature one on here. It is obvious I made mistakes in explaining my reasoning behind things and that is fine as I'm only human, but this whole "I am the authority on this topic and you are not" attitude is complete bs. I am more of the attitude that if I'm going to be bothered to party I am there for the sake of the party and not my own ego. If I have to take a hit in dps by equipping the knife to improve drop rates for the party then I will gladly do so and just keep the dagger equipped at all times. I understand that isnt for everybody but that is just fine for me. My damage alone will not completely kill the overall damage out and kill rate of the party if I am the only one taking the dps hit.

Despite whatever I said it was NEVER EVER meant as hey this is the only way or even the best way just an alternative way. Anyone and everyone can TAKE IT or LEAVE IT. All this overreaction name calling and insulting was really uncalled for really. I mean if anyway has the time to really be offended by anything I said, if I was them I would really re-evaluate the time being spent in playing this game, reading this forum, and see that I am obviously neglecting the rest of my life or there is something seriously wrong inside me that I'm taking people post so seriously to even be offended by it. Alas not everybody is me unfortunately. Sad thing I was even starting to respect Frank at one point for not being that way til I felt that had change but it doesnt matter. Me respecting him is probably about as important as any of you respecting my viewpoint no matter how off the grid you think is so that to is acceptable and no skin off my back.

In any case from what I seen in game and on these forums about the interaction of players about differing points of views from anything other than what has been "established" is what I feel is killing this game off and scaring off new players who would otherwise be comitted to the game. The percieve inflexibility or unwillingness to veer outside the "COMFORT ZONE" is amazing to me but not shocking. Its your money and you play how want I get that but if you really love this game and want it to continue to grow and prosper so that you can keep playing for years to come one might reconsider. Otherwise done be suprise if FFXI as well as FFXIV 2.0 doesnt get better and degrades to point they all get shut down. To each his own but I will continue to play solo and occasionally help any beginner who seem to seriously like the game and encourage them to try many different things to find what suits them and not just go with the status quo because everybody else says they should. I've seen people waste plenty of gil and the time to get that gil because of stuff like that and seen first hand what it does to people and them want to play after it. Guess that isnt important on here though.

[FrankReynolds]

Back on topic: Lets have a quest to convert the Thief's knife into a key item. Let's not tie it to any wonky Craft System, or NM that will be retardedly over camped. Let's add some story line.

[SpankWustler]

Let's add some story line.

In the bowels of the Gunpowder Room or the Marital Aid Room or some other room where Cid toils day and night on inventions to better the land of Vana'diel by blowing up the worst bits of it, a dubious discovery has been made.

"These Lutefisk-flavored long-johns," Cid says, "attract all nearby loot to any Lootmonger who happens to be wearing them. In fact, the damned things have tried pull out and collect my Goblin-bone false teeth seven times just today."

After taking a moment to hammer his Hell-forged dental appliance back in place for the eighth time since this morning, Cid adds, "If you help me out with something, I'd be happy to let you have them."

[FrankReynolds]

In the bowels of the Gunpowder Room or the Marital Aid Room or some other room where Cid toils day and night on inventions to better the land of Vana'diel by blowing up the worst bits of it, a dubious discovery has been made.

"These Lutefisk-flavored long-johns," Cid says, "attract all nearby loot to any Lootmonger who happens to be wearing them. In fact, the damned things have tried pull out and collect my Goblin-bone false teeth seven times just today."

After taking a moment to hammer his Hell-forged dental appliance back in place for the eighth time since this morning, Cid adds, "If you help me out with something, I'd be happy to let you have them."

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Lordscyon]

Our daggers really don't have alot of hit damage it feels like we poke the mob with a stick.

[noodles355]

1. Why does everybody keep repeating this when I made it blatantly clear of my uncertainty of the name of the hat I was referring to. I said O-hat because that is the only hat item I remember having a discussion with a buddy who no longer plays anymore a while ago and it was the easiest hat for me to remember because lots of people used to talk about that and I just forgot the reason why especially since I rarely hear it mentioned any more. I was wrong about the name of the hat big fucking deal quit beating a dead horse like a geek already.And yet you deny it when I call you out for doing no fucking research whatsoever.
1) O-hat doesn't have TH on it.
2) No hat has TH on it.
3) This infomation would have been easilly found yourself by visiting ffxi.wikia.org/Treasure_Hunter.

You asked about if multiple Thf's affect TH's increase: Visiting that same Wiki page would have answered this.

You asked if your TH level goes down after unequipping TH gear: Visiting that same Wiki page would have answered this.

You have absolutely no idea how damage is calulated or how weaponskills work from your "At 100%TP Dancing Edge only llands 3/5 hits for 15% max TP return". Whilst more complicated, if you had searched "Calculating Physical Damage" it would have given you a starting point.

You stated your mis-infomation about Dancing Edge, and about the DMG loss from equipping Thief's Knife being minimal as absolute fact - they're not. You were wrong.

Why do you come in here, post wrong things as fact without researching anything? It's not fucking hard to google "ffxi wiki treasure hunter". I'm going to call you double-digit from now on because you definitely have a below-average IQ.

[noodles355]

And the most amazing thing is how you continue to post after every single poster has told you you are wrong, or to shut up, or both. Get the hint double-digit.

[Arcon]

Hemmingway would be proud.

Not sure about that, but Hemingway sure would. And so am I. <3

[Morgantisthedon]

I skimmed over this post. i realy see no reason you have to upgrade th dagger. Once you enlighten th u can swap off you junky boots hands and your off hand dagger via macro swap. Sure you lose tp when you swap. But the added effect of a better weapon after th is highlighted is better imo after this. Fact is this is one reason I love this game you can get the most out utalizing swaps for advantage other than wearing a full time gear and not swapping. And yes th will go up from your last enlightened point. It only needs to be sparked to start and you build from there. Plus everything I saw and tested shows that after th enlightened it goes up and no more need of th gear. Why they say have your highest th thief always enlighten the th and build from there.
Overall you want th on a mob wear your th gear then swap it once u enlighten it once. Sure you lose out on best gear and wpn in off hand but you put th on a mob. Small sacrifice i think till its enlightened then you can swap that stuff away for better:cool:

[Arcon]

I skimmed over this post.

You should have read it carefully, maybe then you would have seen what it was actually about?

[SpankWustler]

Not sure about that, but Hemingway sure would. And so am I. <3

The dude was so committed to terse language that he removed one of the M's from his own name. That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

[Morgantisthedon]

nope i read it ... most post's are blah not sitting here reading 24 pages of spam about a thf knife thats just fine for what it does. You want th gear u where th stuff then swap. is simple. i want guard gear i wear guard gear... sure there better but you are wearing it for utility of th not to beat stuff up with. Thus even if its weak it procing th is what matters even if it was a lv 1 piece gear with th. I would pop on start then swap it out.

It is very simple I believe and think Th gear shouldnt be full time ever. Doesnt need to be and If that is your boat to float then its fine. If i wantr th on something Ill take the lose of damage or w/e and use that for my th procing till i do then swap on something better. Same idea whould be if i macro in all my steal gear. Its situaltion not ment to be fulltime. Macro swap = core of equipment perfection.

[Greatguardian]

Man, it's pretty sweet that Dancing Edge can get 25% TP back when it lands all 5 hits. My Asuran Fists must have really shitty Accuracy, I've never gotten more than 20% TP back from that 8-hit WS in my life.

At least his username is pretty dead on.

[Protip 1: A 6-hit Dancing Edge returns 13 TP, assuming you're getting 4.8TP/hit in TP phase]

[Protip 2: The TP mod for Dancing Edge only adds an Accuracy Bonus, not a penalty. If you have capped or near-capped acc already, extra TP is worthless]

[Protip 3: Don't post RL card unless you have pics to back it up, and a life story about how many hours a week you spend at the gym. Personally, I work out about 15 hours a week. How about you?]

[Arcon]

[Protip 3: Don't post RL card unless you have pics to back it up, and a life story about how many hours a week you spend at the gym. Personally, I work out about 15 hours a week. How about you?]

I already had to give one retard-speech today, I won't shy away from another one for that guy.

[FrankReynolds]

nope i read it ... most post's are blah not sitting here reading 24 pages of spam about a thf knife thats just fine for what it does. You want th gear u where th stuff then swap. is simple. i want guard gear i wear guard gear... sure there better but you are wearing it for utility of th not to beat stuff up with. Thus even if its weak it procing th is what matters even if it was a lv 1 piece gear with th. I would pop on start then swap it out.

It is very simple I believe and think Th gear shouldnt be full time ever. Doesnt need to be and If that is your boat to float then its fine. If i wantr th on something Ill take the lose of damage or w/e and use that for my th procing till i do then swap on something better. Same idea whould be if i macro in all my steal gear. Its situaltion not ment to be fulltime. Macro swap = core of equipment perfection.

Thanks for the recap on how TH gear works. This thread is about making a new dagger that works better. Not about how the current one works. Not about whether you think we need one. Please stop derailing the thread.

[Arcon]

nope i read it ... most post's are blah not sitting here reading 24 pages of spam about a thf knife thats just fine for what it does. You want th gear u where th stuff then swap. is simple. i want guard gear i wear guard gear... sure there better but you are wearing it for utility of th not to beat stuff up with. Thus even if its weak it procing th is what matters even if it was a lv 1 piece gear with th. I would pop on start then swap it out.

It is very simple I believe and think Th gear shouldnt be full time ever. Doesnt need to be and If that is your boat to float then its fine. If i wantr th on something Ill take the lose of damage or w/e and use that for my th procing till i do then swap on something better. Same idea whould be if i macro in all my steal gear. Its situaltion not ment to be fulltime. Macro swap = core of equipment perfection.

Someone just said that a few pages ago and we collectively tore them a new one, and they're still leaking all over this thread (as you can witness yourself). And it's not because it's wrong. It's not. Not at all. That was never the issue. And that is the problem. You just don't get what the issue is, what this thread is about. If you wanna come in here and spread your wisdom, a solution to all our problems, you better read what the problem actually is, this is borderline insulting. Do you really think all the thieves in here are so retarded that they don't know that they can't swap out TH gear after they land a hit? I'm not even gonna tell you what the problem is, because we've explained it, in detail, to the last three retards who came in here and I won't do it again for every new retard who's too lazy to read a thread. If you don't wanna read it, then don't, no one's forcing you to. But don't comment on something if you don't even know what the fucking topic is about.

[Phen]

nope i read it ... most post's are blah not sitting here reading 24 pages of spam about a thf knife thats just fine for what it does. You want th gear u where th stuff then swap. is simple. i want guard gear i wear guard gear... sure there better but you are wearing it for utility of th not to beat stuff up with. Thus even if its weak it procing th is what matters even if it was a lv 1 piece gear with th. I would pop on start then swap it out.

It is very simple I believe and think Th gear shouldnt be full time ever. Doesnt need to be and If that is your boat to float then its fine. If i wantr th on something Ill take the lose of damage or w/e and use that for my th procing till i do then swap on something better. Same idea whould be if i macro in all my steal gear. Its situaltion not ment to be fulltime. Macro swap = core of equipment perfection.

So your in dynamis after you cast your first spell on each mob as blue mage you reset all your spells and suffer the no spells penalty. Rinse and repeat for every monster you kill in dynamis. That sounds like a dumb idea doesnt it? Because you would be effectively setting back your damage by a lot. The lose of tp in situations where you kill multiple monsters for a job like thief hurts its capability in the same way. Thats what we are talking about, read the thread!

[Greatguardian]

I already had to give one retard-speech today, I won't shy away from another one for that guy.

Speeches are less fun than pics and stories about clubs, though. I wish I could post what I'm referring to on this site, but it would get moderated so fast.

[noodles355]

I love people who play the RL card. True Fact: Those of us who actually have a great RL don't feel the need to brag about it to people online.

[SpankWustler]

I'm all up in the club...

http://newyork.seriouseats.com/images/20110822-epicerie-boulud6.jpg

...gaining half a cup size on my man-boobs.

[Skirata]

Hi everyone!
Thank you all very much for posting your comments here. There were some very good opinions and ideas that were put up in this thread so far. I'm sure the development team have some good ideas now on what THFs would like to see in the future about the Thief's Knife. However this thread has become off-topic and we will be closing it now. Thank you again and take care.