Pray

[Sebi]

Hello, very old WHM here.

Seeing that Cura and Cura II have never been used I'd like to propose a change. Maybe you guys should think about reintroducing Pray and/or Vigor. Like range attacks are forced each round, pray would be the same way. Player would have a delay like a melee's swing. Pray would heal for only a small amount, building up very gradually. Allowing WHM to store mp, if only for a little while. Pray and Vigor should have the distance and rules of cura, very short and very limiting. Self target only. This allows WHM to step forward into frontline while still remaining a mage. Since this JA would be would forced, those who wish to melee may continue to do so.

Just a suggestion~ Thanks

[Kimara]

I like the idea but you could essentially do the same thing /SCH with Regen. Because of that I dunno if they would ever thing about putting something like this in but I would be all for it.

[Ahrana]

This is almost exactly the same as astral favor using carby. While regen effects look good on paper, they rarely get used because they're not potent enough.

[Economizer]

Seeing that Cura and Cura II have never been used

Cura is commonly used for waking up a large group, or dealing with AOE damage if you were lucky enough to have Misery up when it happened. Recently, I've been able to mostly cure the damage from 1000 Needles when duoing with someone doing a trial.

As for a 0 MP cure, the AF3 legs make a good macro piece when casting any -aga style cure, and Cura I/II is the most reliable for this considering the extreme potency and cheap cost.

For Regen effects, what others have said about /SCH is probably your best bet. Regen effects are usually not very strong, and usually mostly useful when farming, or curing someone in the backline who won't get hit again any time soon (and if they do, they deserve it :p).

[Sebi]

This isn't meant to be a regen effect of any kind, but rather a JA AoE form of healing. Building up like the avatar's favor from carbuncle, with each successive use. This should be a unique form of healing for WHMs. Cura is very under used, being that it is enhanced by Misery as you said, people only get lucky that it was up after esuna or something to see any sort of potency. I am not asking for WHM to cure for free but rather a new and faster form of healing (Probably also more fun.)

[Spinecord]

well they have martyr but that sacrifices your hp to heal another party member's hp so i guess martyr is a sort of like pray..

[saevel]

I can see it as like Chakra, cure IV in a can, but for your entire PT. Doesn't use MP and generates next to no enmity, put it on a 5min timer.

[noirin]

well they have martyr but that sacrifices your hp to heal another party member's hp so i guess martyr is a sort of like pray..
true,however martyr only hurts a WHM if they use it without stoneskin up.otherwise the damage occured to them is almost,if not fully,absorbed.same when it comes to devotion.

[Sebi]

I can see it as like Chakra, cure IV in a can, but for your entire PT. Doesn't use MP and generates next to no enmity, put it on a 5min timer.

Definitely not that great of a potency but rather starting from cure I, and gradually building. Since this would have the wait of a range atk. We have to be realistic on it's potency. Sure it would be enhanced by mind but it would make a "unique" whm only form of healing. If whm is to surpass anyone, adding cure VII won't make for a better mage, Nor would a stronger curaga. I can see how they restrict RDMs and SCHs from cure V to keep whm on top but Pray would separate whm from the pool entirely.

Pray isn't to replace any of the already given cures we would still need for the heavy hitters (Voidwatch mobs for example), but on fights where the mob is weak in attack, just like DDs need to change their sets and tanks need to alter their methods of tanking. Whm would be able to relax while being in melee range.

[SpankWustler]

I know it's a different mechanic than Pray being that they're spells, but the Regen line of spells are ideal for the situations you're describing as times when you would use Pray.

[Vortex]

Actually outside cura IIis a great MP saver if you have misery up and fighting something that does alot of aoeing,. i seen good results from it, of course it is situational but it defintly has good uses in the hands of smart whms.



This is almost exactly the same as astral favor using carby. While regen effects look good on paper, they rarely get used because they're not potent enough

Regen 4

Restores 30HP/tick for 20 ticks, or 600 HP healed over 60 seconds.
Cleric's Briault increases the HP healed per tick by 4.
Merits can boost this effect further (+1 to +5)
Does not work with the SCH Stratagem Accession.
Orison Mitts +1/Orison Mitts +2 Increases duration of the Regen family by 10/15 seconds.
Cleric's Briault + Orison Mitts +2 + max merits = 39HP/tick for a maximum of 975 HP over 75 seconds

Regen 3 (since it can be aoed unlike 4)

Restores 20HP/tick for 20 ticks, or 400 HP healed over 60 seconds.
Cleric's Briault increases the HP healed per tick by 3.
Merits can boost this effect further (+1 to +5)
Cleric's Briault + max merits = 28HP/tick for a maximum of 560 HP.

In short regen should never be underestimated if used in the right situations. i shake my head at whms who never use it saying it's "not worth it"

[saevel]

I love Regen II as a RDM, so useful. I wish SE would give us Regen III / IV and a super Regen and just call it a day.

Anyhow, never underestimate Regen. It's awesome on anyone who doesn't need full HP RFN.

[Ahrana]

In short regen should never be underestimated if used in the right situations. i shake my head at whms who never use it saying it's "not worth it"

If regen is "worth it" then you're fighting stuff that is trivial. Against anything that actually hits decently hard you're better off using cure spells. The mp difference between healing 975 hp's with regen IV and cure V is 5 mp (82 vs 87), with the difference being that it casts faster, the hp's are healed now, I give them a stoneskin effect, and it frees up half my group 1 merits for a spell that can be a lifesaver (barspells). I can also cure someone outside of my party.

Regen was a decent tool when leveling up back when we use to fight offensively weak crabs, but with anything that has even medium spike damage it just doesn't do the job.

[SpankWustler]

If regen is "worth it" then you're fighting stuff that is trivial. Against anything that actually hits decently hard you're better off using cure spells. The mp difference between healing 975 hp's with regen IV and cure V is 5 mp (82 vs 87), with the difference being that it casts faster, the hp's are healed now, I give them a stoneskin effect, and it frees up half my group 1 merits for a spell that can be a lifesaver (barspells). I can also cure someone outside of my party.

Regen was a decent tool when leveling up back when we use to fight offensively weak crabs, but with anything that has even medium spike damage it just doesn't do the job.

This is the truest thing anyone has ever said.

I loved the relative level of skill involved in using Regen spells for merit-party-like content back in the day, but they're near-useless now that White Mage is so awesome at casting Cure spells.

[Vortex]

If regen is "worth it" then you're fighting stuff that is trivial. Against anything that actually hits decently hard you're better off using cure spells. The mp difference between healing 975 hp's with regen IV and cure V is 5 mp (82 vs 87), with the difference being that it casts faster, the hp's are healed now, I give them a stoneskin effect, and it frees up half my group 1 merits for a spell that can be a lifesaver (barspells). I can also cure someone outside of my party.

Regen was a decent tool when leveling up back when we use to fight offensively weak crabs, but with anything that has even medium spike damage it just doesn't do the job.

Then you should probably learn how to play whm better, because not everything will do "huge spike damage" and more often then not somone is shadow tanking or nin is main tanking, if they take aoe damage sometimes, regen will give them the hp back without you over curing. barspells are indeed useful, but like most things in this game they are also situational, not everything attacks you with elemental attacks, nothing wrong with regen merits if someone chooses to do them. Not a very valid point.




This is the truest thing anyone has ever said.

I loved the relative level of skill involved in using Regen spells for merit-party-like content back in the day, but they're near-useless now that White Mage is so awesome at casting Cure spells.

yes, because the obvious awnser is to over cure at all times, instead of being intellegent. clear reason why so many whms suck at the job.

[SpankWustler]

You don't seem to get it, so I'll try to explain. With ideal equipment for both cures and regen spells, Cure V restores the same amount of HP as Regen IV for the same amount of MP spent. In addition to that, Cure V restores that HP instantly and provides a strong Stoneskin effect.

Orison Pantaloons +2 restore 5% of HP healed as MP. This is roughly 50~55 MP for a good Cure V. Thus, you expend about 80~85 MP to cast Cure V. The same cost as Regen IV.

For situations where Cure V is not called for, it's likely that Cure IV is a better option than Regen IV for the same reasons that Cure V is better than Regen IV.

I don't like that Regen is very rarely a relevant spell anymore either, but it's not. Yelling at a math equation doesn't change the result of that equation.

[Economizer]

In addition to that, Cure V restores that HP instantly

Additionally, Regen takes a lot of time to cast, especially for a White Mage who only has sped up casting times for Cures and status removal spells. Aside from being bored and toying around, or perhaps making sure I always have a strat timer from /SCH counting down by using Celerity + Regen IV every two minutes, casting Regen is a slow affair when you are main healing.

[Bubeeky]

It's been said before but it bears repeating....regen isn't worth casting anymore...takes too long to cast, too long to get the full effect, no cureskin on it, and it's too expensive for what it is, MP wise.

[Kimara]

It's been said before but it bears repeating....regen isn't worth casting anymore...takes too long to cast, too long to get the full effect, no cureskin on it, and it's too expensive for what it is, MP wise.

I'd say for most cases in Abyssea this is true, I use regen a lot though. Especially when it comes to Salvage, or when i'm duoing something with Saith on his nin.
Regen is still worth casting, you just have to know where ^^. Back on topic I still think pray is a good idea just unfortunately not needed with the current abilities we have.

[Bubeeky]

Pray is one of those abilities that's really nice in theory, and in practice for a single player ff game, it's fantastic...but in an MMO, it really loses something (in my opinion :))...I'd rather have like an aoe regen or something....I'd totally use a regenga type spell :)

[Bubeeky]

I just had a thought for a whm JA...how about a JA that acts kind of like the sanctuary spells in DnD? 30 sec duration, 5-10 min recast, for the duration of the JA, we couldn't attack, but we couldn't be attacked in any way...we could take damage from aoes cast on others, but we couldn't be the target of attacks, JAs, WSs, spells, etc, so we'd basically be protected from all harm for like 30 secs where we could unload heals without regard for enmity or danger or w/e....anyway, just a quick thought, opinions please :D

PS yes, I am a DnD nerd :o

[SpankWustler]

I just had a thought for a whm JA...how about a JA that acts kind of like the sanctuary spells in DnD? 30 sec duration, 5-10 min recast, for the duration of the JA, we couldn't attack, but we couldn't be attacked in any way...we could take damage from aoes cast on others, but we couldn't be the target of attacks, JAs, WSs, spells, etc, so we'd basically be protected from all harm for like 30 secs where we could unload heals without regard for enmity or danger or w/e....anyway, just a quick thought, opinions please :D

I loved the Sanctuary spells in the Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale games. "Oh, these things attack me when I take this Pointy Pole of the Profane Protuberance +2? I know how to deal with that..."

I think this sort of ability would be good for White Mage, in fact, far better than something to just lower enmity. If something untoward were to happen, we could activate Sanctuary and continue to cure people as required while things were being sorted out. Definitely a ten minute recast to mirror Enmity Douse, since it would be an "emergencies only!" kind of thing.

[Ahrana]

Then you should probably learn how to play whm better, because not everything will do "huge spike damage" and more often then not somone is shadow tanking or nin is main tanking, if they take aoe damage sometimes, regen will give them the hp back without you over curing.

There are probably people out there that can teach me how to play white mage, but by reading your argument I know that you're not one of them. Even if something doesn't do "huge spike damage," you simply don't gain much by casting regen and waiting the 75 seconds it takes to have full effect. A much better option, at least in my opinion, is curing the damage directly with a cure spell. Even if they are nin or /nin, as you suggest most people are now adays, then this is generally preferable because the stoneskin effect can help them get shadows back up, as opposed to just hoping that they don't get hit again. And if something is wiping shadows once, chances are they're going to wipe them again before regen runs its course.




barspells are indeed useful, but like most things in this game they are also situational, not everything attacks you with elemental attacks, nothing wrong with regen merits if someone chooses to do them. Not a very valid point.

They are situational, just like regen. The difference is that barspells tend to be a useful in fights where incoming damage is considerable, and regen is useful in fights that are trivial. I won't naysay someone that gets regen merits because a lot of people enjoy playing content where they are useful, but the regen spell just isn't useful for end game content. Blah blah maybe salvage, or you could use phallanx instead and take no damage.


yes, because the obvious awnser is to over cure at all times, instead of being intellegent. clear reason why so many whms suck at the job.

If you're over curing with cure then you're over curing with regen. "Being intelligent" in this case is using a inferior tool in situations where you could use a superior tool, just because you're trying to make the inferior tool useful.

The real use of the regen spells way back when was so you could get an extra tick or two of mp when healing. You cure a tank back up to full, throw your highest tier regen spell on them, and you were hoping that bought you enough time so that you could kneel down for 10 or 20 extra seconds. People tended to fight monsters that didn't require a lot of status cures, or else you had a backup healer to cover them while the whm was healing.

Regen was never a tool that replaced curing when fighting non-trivial content.

[Bubeeky]

Very well said Ahrana :D I totally agree about the barspell merits...when I was meriting whm, I thought about meriting regen, but someone basically pointed out to me what you said...barspell merits will help to negate more damage than regen could ever cure, even with maxed merits...and that's even more true today with the added help of the AF3+2 set bonus.

[Economizer]

If something untoward were to happen, we could activate Sanctuary and continue to cure people as required while things were being sorted out.

More like the MPK button. Diaga + Sanctuary. Watch for twenty seconds then decide whether or not you want to warp out. Or sub BLM, d2 the tank, Diaga the mob for good measure, then pop Sanctuary and sit laughing for a good fifteen seconds before Warping out.

[Vortex]

There are probably people out there that can teach me how to play white mage, but by reading your argument I know that you're not one of them. Even if something doesn't do "huge spike damage," you simply don't gain much by casting regen and waiting the 75 seconds it takes to have full effect. A much better option, at least in my opinion, is curing the damage directly with a cure spell. Even if they are nin or /nin, as you suggest most people are now adays, then this is generally preferable because the stoneskin effect can help them get shadows back up, as opposed to just hoping that they don't get hit again. And if something is wiping shadows once, chances are they're going to wipe them again before regen runs its course.

Yea you are right, because you are obviously unteachable. if i have to sit here and explain to you how to use regen then all hope for you is lost. i never said "use it all the time" perhaps you should try supporting outside abyssea where things are actually challanging. since you aren't pamperd with mp and you can just spam any cure to top off hp.

While regen is restoring there hp you have time to do other things like haste the dds, tanks cure other members, etc. while the hp is filling up the person with regen, not stand there and wait for there hp to drop so you can cast a cure and pat your self on the back.






They are situational, just like regen. The difference is that barspells tend to be a useful in fights where incoming damage is considerable, and regen is useful in fights that are trivial. I won't naysay someone that gets regen merits because a lot of people enjoy playing content where they are useful, but the regen spell just isn't useful for end game content. Blah blah maybe salvage, or you could use phallanx instead and take no damage.

WHM does not get phalanx, unless of course the dumb asses who choose /rdm over /sch. as i said above, try content outside abyssea, regen will overtime save you mp, but you need to not be stupid. learn when to use it correctly, during periods where somone is not taking MANY hits. obvisouly useing regen on something that is using hundred fist or constant triple/double attack is not going to help, but you aren't reading between the lines. regen is never nor will ever be useless to a whm who knows what they are doing




If you're over curing with cure then you're over curing with regen. "Being intelligent" in this case is using a inferior tool in situations where you could use a superior tool, just because you're trying to make the inferior tool useful.

Yes, regen is "over curing" gradual Hp recovery is over curing, are you stupid? or just in denial. again, i can explain to you how gradual hp recovery is diffrent but if you lack the intellect to tell the diffrence i can't help you, tank takes 400 aoe damage once every 1 minute but not taking any more damage in between them, regen will give them the hp back, or you can just sit there and over cure him wasting mp. You need to learn the diffrence between "inferior" and "superior" because it would only be inferior to people who only know how to press a cure macro and call it a day, that is not playing whm that is just being a mindless, cure bot.


The real use of the regen spells way back when was so you could get an extra tick or two of mp when healing. You cure a tank back up to full, throw your highest tier regen spell on them, and you were hoping that bought you enough time so that you could kneel down for 10 or 20 extra seconds. People tended to fight monsters that didn't require a lot of status cures, or else you had a backup healer to cover them while the whm was healing.

Because abyssea has spoiled many players, people are used to near limitless mp so they can just cure 5 - cure 6 - cure v - cure 6 no matter how much HP the person is missing and not worry about it, outside you cannot do that or get a swift dry mp pool. i don't recall ever needing a back up healer, in my entire whm carrer, sure it helps but very few situations i couldnt handle, the ONLY exception was probably odin back in the 75 days since most mp went to rebuffing due his constant dispeliing.


Regen was never a tool that replaced curing when fighting non-trivial content.

I never said it replaced curing, i am stating it is always useful when used correctly, but you have to be good at whm to know these things, WHM has been my main for the past 6 years, i have done enough on it during HNM ls days to know what works and what dosn't no i don't regen everything, everywhere, i know when to use it and not to use it. so don't sit here trying to explain to whm fundamentals when i clearly seem to know them better then you do.

PS i actually have cure cast time and barspell merits, i simply stated there is nothing wrong with somone meriting regen, barspells will still serve there porpuse with or without merits. merits just makes them stronger obviously.

again, these are things with whm you actually need to be smart. when you can do more then spam cure macros only you may see it. Sure i can teach you whm, but you have to be willing to learn, no one has ever complaind about how i play whm, with the exception of few retards who had the mentaility of a 8 year old. nor would ever shell i'v been in constatnly asked me to be whm all the time if i didn't. if you don't agree with how regen work then that is you, but do not insult me just because i clearly know something you havn't figured out yet.

again so you can help figure it out on your own let me tell you the diffrence

barspells reduce the damage from elemental attacks

Regen gradually restores Hp over time

why you are comparing the 2 are beyond me they do 2 diffrent things, and like i just explain they are used in diffrent situations, if you are fighting a blm mob spaming spells then barspells will shine, if you are fighting a mob that does no elemental attacks but physcial damage and sometimes aoes barspells will not help you, regen will in the hopes that it's not constatly spaming aoe moves. do you see the diffrence? if you can learn the diffrence you may actually become better at whm.

Try to respond in a better way then "i spam cure only so regen is useless" responses. i take whm seriously enough.

[Mirage]

Well, this thread has made me seriously consider dropping my regen merits in favor of barspell potency. Maybe not right now, but definitely when I get my af3+2 pants.

[Vortex]

Well, this thread has made me seriously consider dropping my regen merits in favor of barspell potency. Maybe not right now, but definitely when I get my af3+2 pants.

you should, but it's actually a better idea to use relic pants not af3 legs, the +20 to barspells will help more often then a very low set proc chance, i use +1 relic legs while the rest of the slots are af3 debatable with af3 hands vs augur.

[Gael]

Motenten did some maths about it (topic here : http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/24734/barspell-test)

And his conclusions are :
Augur's Gloves are +5 Enhancing Magic skill, which *might* give you +2 barspell resistance, which might reduce damage in the long term by maybe 1%.

Given that you are using relic pants (per my post above), you'd have the option for 4/5 AF3 set otherwise. If you use Augur's instead, that means 3/5 AF3 set.

3/5 should give a 4% proc rate, while 4/5 should give a 7% proc rate. That reduces average damage from 96% baseline to 93% baseline, or an average of a 3.1% damage reduction. There's basically no way possible that Augur's Gloves would beat the set bonus.

The only reason to use Augur's Gloves for barspells is because you only have the AF3+1 hands.

And ya, he also confirm the fact that af 2 legs > af 3 for bar spell

[Ahrana]

You made the assumption that I'm only talking about abyssea, yet I never mentioned inside abyssea specifically. Additionally, the point about being pampered with mp in abyssea is moot; I've stated multiple times that the difference in mp costs between comparable regens and cures is negligible assuming the caster has access to both af3+2 pants and af2 body. The comment about sitting there waiting to spam cure really doesn't make any sense either, since you should be doing that regardless. Fact is that if you use cure you will have additional time to do these tasks because of all the -cure casting time equipment/merits available.

The question about regen is what is the benefit for using it over a equivalent mp cure that casts quicker?


WHM does not get phalanx, unless of course the dumb asses who choose /rdm over /sch. as i said above, try content outside abyssea, regen will overtime save you mp, but you need to not be stupid. learn when to use it correctly, during periods where somone is not taking MANY hits. obvisouly useing regen on something that is using hundred fist or constant triple/double attack is not going to help, but you aren't reading between the lines. regen is never nor will ever be useless to a whm who knows what they are doing.

Regardless of sub white mage will never be able to use phalanx on someone else, that was more of a comment of "take a redmage for your healing if you're fighting trivial stuff." As far as /rdm vs /sch, they're both good subs depending on personal play style. Using /rdm as a sub gives a white mage more raw mp and gives full time access to dispel (mab, fast cast, blah blah), while /sch gives more utility with light arts + stratagems and more timely bursts of mp with sublimation. Both are excellent subs for white mage, and while I do tend to use /sch most of the time I find that /rdm (and occasionally /blm) is equally useful.

But your comment about using regen for occasional hits from light to moderate AoE damage makes me wonder what content your talking about. The problem I have with this, outside of you saying again that I'm a whm noob, is that you don't know when a person is going to be taking a lot of hits, AoE or otherwise.


Yes, regen is "over curing" gradual Hp recovery is over curing, are you stupid? or just in denial. again, i can explain to you how gradual hp recovery is diffrent but if you lack the intellect to tell the diffrence i can't help you, tank takes 400 aoe damage once every 1 minute but not taking any more damage in between them, regen will give them the hp back, or you can just sit there and over cure him wasting mp. You need to learn the diffrence between "inferior" and "superior" because it would only be inferior to people who only know how to press a cure macro and call it a day, that is not playing whm that is just being a mindless, cure bot.

"Over curing" is using healing in excess of what the target needs to get back to full hp's, which can happen just as easilly with regen as with cures. Once again the mp difference between curing and using regen is negligible if the caster has af3+2 pants. If the person that I just cured gets hit again before the Solace stoneskin effect wears off then I just blew your regen mp efficiency numbers out of the water. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to understand.


Because abyssea has spoiled many players, people are used to near limitless mp so they can just cure 5 - cure 6 - cure v - cure 6 no matter how much HP the person is missing and not worry about it, outside you cannot do that or get a swift dry mp pool. i don't recall ever needing a back up healer, in my entire whm carrer, sure it helps but very few situations i couldnt handle, the ONLY exception was probably odin back in the 75 days since most mp went to rebuffing due his constant dispeliing.

I never said it replaced curing, i am stating it is always useful when used correctly, but you have to be good at whm to know these things, WHM has been my main for the past 6 years, i have done enough on it during HNM ls days to know what works and what dosn't no i don't regen everything, everywhere, i know when to use it and not to use it. so don't sit here trying to explain to whm fundamentals when i clearly seem to know them better then you do.

I'm an old G white mage, so don't try to pull that card on me. I'm talking being able to tell the difference between blaster and chaotic eye based on sound because you leveled up on toramas old school. While I don't play white mage at every event I do I have played every event as white mage, and I play white mage more then any two of my other jobs combined. With that in mind, we can put the entire "noob abyssea white mage" argument to rest now.

But since we're on the topic of HNM's, let me ask you what end game content you would actually use regen on? I'm not going to hope that regen heals enough hp's before the person gets hit again for sky NM's, sea NM's, most limbus runs, ground kings, ToAU kings, T2+ VMN's, most ZNM's, salvage NM's, Dynamsis, Einherjar, or Voidwatch NM's.

So out of anything that could be considered "end game," the only situations where regen would be useful is...sky/sea regular hall trash, weak limbus monsters and early salvage? What am I missing that catapults regen into a position where it can be compared to cure without it getting laughed off the table?

I'd also like to take this time to say that if a white mage is healing light/medium AoE damage that misery + cura + esuna can often blow any other mp efficiency out of the water, and that curaga can often be near a free spell with af3+2 pants.


PS i actually have cure cast time and barspell merits, i simply stated there is nothing wrong with somone meriting regen, barspells will still serve there porpuse with or without merits. merits just makes them stronger obviously.

The reason that the merits are important to the conversation is that without them regen doesn't get anywhere close to cure V's potency, and without that efficiency number to hang your hat on the regen argument becomes laughable. So besides just arguing the efficiency numbers it also becomes a question of opportunity cost of getting regen merits vs barspell merits.

And just for sake of completeness, once you start comparing mp cost of regen with a hp healed value of only 850 it gets blown out of the water by cure spells.


again, these are things with whm you actually need to be smart. when you can do more then spam cure macros only you may see it. Sure i can teach you whm, but you have to be willing to learn, no one has ever complaind about how i play whm, with the exception of few retards who had the mentaility of a 8 year old. nor would ever shell i'v been in constatnly asked me to be whm all the time if i didn't. if you don't agree with how regen work then that is you, but do not insult me just because i clearly know something you havn't figured out yet.

If your shell asks you to come white mage then it's probably because they know you'll come white mage without crying about it, just like my linkshell often asks me to come white mage. That in itself isn't validating your stance on regen.


again so you can help figure it out on your own let me tell you the diffrence

barspells reduce the damage from elemental attacks

Regen gradually restores Hp over time

why you are comparing the 2 are beyond me they do 2 diffrent things, and like i just explain they are used in diffrent situations, if you are fighting a blm mob spaming spells then barspells will shine, if you are fighting a mob that does no elemental attacks but physcial damage and sometimes aoes barspells will not help you, regen will in the hopes that it's not constatly spaming aoe moves. do you see the diffrence? if you can learn the diffrence you may actually become better at whm.

I'm comparing the two because you get to pick one (assuming you pick -cure casting time first). Without the regen merits the topic of regen mp efficiency becomes laughable, and I still consider it to be laughable even with them. But this is the question of opportunity cost: you only get to pick one, so which one with you get more or better use out of? That's why you can compare the two, because they form a character customization choice where you can only maximize one.


Try to respond in a better way then "i spam cure only so regen is useless" responses. i take whm seriously enough.

Ok, to sum up:
AF3+2 pants makes the mp efficiency negligible between the two. If the solace stoneskin is on when the person is next hit then it pushes the mp efficiency argument in favor of curing.
The mp efficiency argument can only be made if the person takes regen merits over barspell merits. Otherwise cure blows regen out.
Cure heals all the hp's instantly, and it casts much faster then regen.

While this may be harder to quantify, another issue with regen is more support classes outside of abyssea. If someone is missing a ~cure 3 worth of hp's, many redmages and bards that I do things with will top them off, which makes throwing the regen in the first place a waste of mp.

So with that concise set of reasons that cure is better than regen, I'm asking you what you are specifically fighting that makes regen such a useful tool. Educate me.

[Mirage]

you should, but it's actually a better idea to use relic pants not af3 legs, the +20 to barspells will help more often then a very low set proc chance, i use +1 relic legs while the rest of the slots are af3 debatable with af3 hands vs augur.
No i mean, when I get the AF3 pants upgraded, that's when I'll start using as much MP on a cure 5 as a refresh 4. When using barspells, i would swap in the appropriate items anyway, of course. I don't have relic pants anyway cause i think dynamis is terribly boring.

[Aleste]

...
"Over curing" is using healing in excess of what the target needs to get back to full hp's, which can happen just as easilly with regen as with cures. Once again the mp difference between curing and using regen is negligible if the caster has af3+2 pants. If the person that I just cured gets hit again before the Solace stoneskin effect wears off then I just blew your regen mp efficiency numbers out of the water. I don't understand why this is such a hard concept to understand.

The reason that the merits are important to the conversation is that without them regen doesn't get anywhere close to cure V's potency, and without that efficiency number to hang your hat on the regen argument becomes laughable. So besides just arguing the efficiency numbers it also becomes a question of opportunity cost of getting regen merits vs barspell merits.

And just for sake of completeness, once you start comparing mp cost of regen with a hp healed value of only 850 it gets blown out of the water by cure spells.

Ok, to sum up:
AF3+2 pants makes the mp efficiency negligible between the two. If the solace stoneskin is on when the person is next hit then it pushes the mp efficiency argument in favor of curing.
The mp efficiency argument can only be made if the person takes regen merits over barspell merits. Otherwise cure blows regen out.
Cure heals all the hp's instantly, and it casts much faster then regen.

So with that concise set of reasons that cure is better than regen, I'm asking you what you are specifically fighting that makes regen such a useful tool. Educate me.

^Just a little math to support this;

Regen IV w/ full merits and gear (relic body+af3+2 hands) heals 975HP over 75 seconds for 82MP, with ~ 4.5 second casting time.
This gives an approximation (assuming no overcure) of 11.89 HP/MP.

Cure V w/ appropriate gear (~+49%pot, capped skill+merits, +70MND gear) heals 1,092HP w/ 382HP stoneskin for 68MP, with ~ 1.3 second casting time.

Assuming no cure and stoneskin, 5.61 HP/MP
Assuming full cure and no stoneskin, 16.06 HP/MP
Assuming full cure and stoneskin, 21.68 HP/MP


Of course personal mileage may vary depending on gear and the quantity of overhealing...

[Vortex]

^Just a little math to support this;

Regen IV w/ full merits and gear (relic body+af3+2 hands) heals 975HP over 75 seconds for 82MP, with ~ 4.5 second casting time.
This gives an approximation (assuming no overcure) of 11.89 HP/MP.

Cure V w/ appropriate gear (~+49%pot, capped skill+merits, +70MND gear) heals 1,092HP w/ 382HP stoneskin for 68MP, with ~ 1.3 second casting time.

Assuming no cure and stoneskin, 5.61 HP/MP
Assuming full cure and no stoneskin, 16.06 HP/MP
Assuming full cure and stoneskin, 21.68 HP/MP


Of course personal mileage may vary depending on gear and the quantity of overhealing...

I didn't bother anymore with her posts, it is apprently that this player will stay a waterd down, abyssea addicted whm, who does not understand the full aspect of whm, it is actually my fault for thinking whms actually take the job serious enough, and keeps trying to explain shit to me that i have already known, so with that being said i didn't bother reading anymore of her posts, as once i started it was just the same BS. if he/she wants to stay a standerd i only use half my abilites whm then so be, just thankful i don't have to watch thier display. the most retarded thing is he/she keeps comparing regen and actual cures to me like i don't know the ####ing diffrence. this player is beyond my help. some things are just better left alone.


So Ahrana if you are reading, i am done with you. Never had a problem curing, never had a problem using regen. if you need to explain to me the shit i already knew before you probably even leveld whm, then it is just turning into a insult, when you want to actually know some pointers you can speak to me. but for now, i am not getting into this.

once again

REGEN IS FOR GRADUAL HP RECOVERY AT SET INTERVEALS WHEN USED APPROPRIATLY CAN SAVE YOU MP

CURING IS A SET INSTANT HP RECOVERY Good god are you that retarded that you don't know the diffrence? it is clear you are not yet advanced at whm yet to understand these type of advanced actions, come back when you better understand the job.

oh and a bit of advice, you may want to stay away from things outside abyssea as it may be to difficult for you to handle.

[Ahrana]

I didn't bother anymore with her posts, it is apprently that this player will stay a waterd down, abyssea addicted whm, who does not understand the full aspect of whm, it is actually my fault for thinking whms actually take the job serious enough, and keeps trying to explain shit to me that i have already known, so with that being said i didn't bother reading anymore of her posts, as once i started it was just the same BS. if he/she wants to stay a standerd i only use half my abilites whm then so be, just thankful i don't have to watch thier display. the most retarded thing is he/she keeps comparing regen and actual cures to me like i don't know the ####ing diffrence. this player is beyond my help. some things are just better left alone.


So Ahrana if you are reading, i am done with you. Never had a problem curing, never had a problem using regen. if you need to explain to me the shit i already knew before you probably even leveld whm, then it is just turning into a insult, when you want to actually know some pointers you can speak to me. but for now, i am not getting into this.

once again

REGEN IS FOR GRADUAL HP RECOVERY AT SET INTERVEALS WHEN USED APPROPRIATLY CAN SAVE YOU MP

CURING IS A SET INSTANT HP RECOVERY Good god are you that retarded that you don't know the diffrence? it is clear you are not yet advanced at whm yet to understand these type of advanced actions, come back when you better understand the job.

oh and a bit of advice, you may want to stay away from things outside abyssea as it may be to difficult for you to handle.

All I ask for is an example of when you would actually get utility out of regen, and all I get in response is a bunch of knee jerk insults. It's like trying to explain a great axe X-hit build to a die hard rampage warrior.

I'll go QQ to myself, but I won't hold it against you. I'll start waving to you in game so you know we can still be friends.

[Vortex]

All I ask for is an example of when you would actually get utility out of regen, and all I get in response is a bunch of knee jerk insults. It's like trying to explain a great axe X-hit build to a die hard rampage warrior.

I'll go QQ to myself, but I won't hold it against you. I'll start waving to you in game so you know we can still be friends.

Ok, fine, (even tho i already explained it) here is example so simple even you will understand.

You cure someone, immedinatly regen them after, that is one example.

you are standing there for more then 30 seconds-1 minute not curing, but they occasionaly take damage you regen. it
will refill them before they actually take damage again. that is another example.

like i already said it, it is situational, i never once said "hey, regen all the time every battle"

ONCE AGAIN, this is MAINLY for outside use. in abyssea it really dosn't matter since MP is near limitess

regen is obviously NOT recommended for mobs that attacks furiously and with very little delay.

You are saying "well regen is useless" which is not true.

i am VERY critical of other whms. i am not priding my self being the best by any means, but i have played this job long enough to understand how it works, even if my words do not seem "nice" but doing things liek solo healing dynamis Alliances and trying to keep more then 6 people alive has FORCED me to find ways to save mp, and regen helps tremendously at the right sitations, yes it isn't always needed, but it is there and it helps.

there, that is as nice as i'm going to be about it only because your post wasn't filled with "scream regen sucks scream"

so there you go. and sure, go ahead and wave, i actually would like to see your set, just to even see if you are a comeptent whm one day.

[SpankWustler]

You're still missing the point, which is exactly the same MP efficiency that you're talking about. Unless you're half-naked due to being in Salvage, a good Cure spell will likely be more MP efficient than a Regen spell due to Orison Pantaloons +2 and Orison Bliault +2. This is especially true for a fellow without Regen merits.

Nobody is saying that Regen spells are bad. Cure spells are just super-awesome now, and Regen spells have obviously not received the same benefits. This has reduced the usefulness of Regen spells greatly by making Cure spells relatively more useful.

You would have been right if it were this time last year. You're not right now, and you're yelling at a math equation.

[Vortex]

You're still missing the point, which is exactly the same MP efficiency that you're talking about. Unless you're half-naked due to being in Salvage, a good Cure spell will likely be more MP efficient than a Regen spell due to Orison Pantaloons +2 and Orison Bliault +2. This is especially true for a fellow without Regen merits.

Nobody is saying that Regen spells are bad. Cure spells are just super-awesome now, and Regen spells have obviously not received the same benefits. This has reduced the usefulness of Regen spells greatly by making Cure spells relatively more useful.

You would have been right if it were this time last year. You're not right now, and you're yelling at a math equation.

oh ok, i guess if something has unremovable poison and bio you'll continue to cure spam instead of canceling it out or greatly reducing the damage tick the person is taking, i am not going to keep going through this, it's like trying to explain toa BLM why the other elements are useful to blm aside thunder and ice only, i don't expect WHMs to be know how to fully play it and i never will, but this is pricicly why 99% of whms cannot survive outside abyssea. i guess this is just one of those problems ill have to let go. and as the old saying goes, if you want something done right, you have to do it your self.

[SpankWustler]

oh ok, i guess if something has unremovable poison and bio you'll continue to cure spam instead of canceling it out or greatly reducing the damage tick the person is taking, i am not going to keep going through this, it's like trying to explain toa BLM why the other elements are useful to blm aside thunder and ice only, i don't expect WHMs to be know how to fully play it and i never will, but this is pricicly why 99% of whms cannot survive outside abyssea. i guess this is just one of those problems ill have to let go. and as the old saying goes, if you want something done right, you have to do it your self.

Whether HP loss is coming from Bio, Poison, melee hits, spells, or some individual whimsically using a Frenzy Sallet in his or her idle set; that does not effect the MP efficiency of Regen spells VS various Cure spells.

I primarily use Regen when it is the most MP efficient choice available, since the spell line has almost no benefits other than MP efficiency. At present date and time, a Regen spell is not often the most MP efficient spell so I rarely use it.

There are times other than "It's Salvage and I'm not wearing any pants." when the Regen line can be useful, but they are few and far between. The spell line is no longer the staple which it once was.

[Vortex]

Whether HP loss is coming from Bio, Poison, melee hits, spells, or some individual whimsically using a Frenzy Sallet in his or her idle set; that does not effect the MP efficiency of Regen spells VS various Cure spells.

I primarily use Regen when it is the most MP efficient choice available, since the spell line has almost no benefits other than MP efficiency. At present date and time, a Regen spell is not often the most MP efficient spell so I rarely use it.

There are times other than "It's Salvage and I'm not wearing any pants." when the Regen line can be useful, but they are few and far between. The spell line is no longer the staple which it once was.

If you say so. like i said, i don't expect much out of others whms, so to each his own. i consider this matter closed. Regen should never be underestimated, period.

[Economizer]

that does not effect the MP efficiency of Regen spells VS various Cure spells.

SpankWustler, you can say this again and again and you will continue to get the answer that you are a terrible White Mage that doesn't understand and can't survive outside Abyssea, despite evidence to the contrary. You might even get called names over it, like Ahrana did. At this point, we're clearly explaining a clear point and being told in rude and abusive language that we are bad White Mages. Just keep preaching the math and ignore dismissive people.

[Vortex]

SpankWustler, you can say this again and again and you will continue to get the answer that you are a terrible White Mage that doesn't understand and can't survive outside Abyssea, despite evidence to the contrary. You might even get called names over it, like Ahrana did. At this point, we're clearly explaining a clear point and being told in rude and abusive language that we are bad White Mages. Just keep preaching the math and ignore dismissive people.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

i'm not being rude i am trying to explain how you can expand your playstyle, you probably should learnt he difference between "rude" and "facts, [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

"evidence to the contrary."
you're a funny guy, even i don't use regen that often perhaps you should learn how to read more careful i know it's very difficult but you can do it, where i said it is situational, do you understand what that means?
my entire point to this whole dumb debate was that it is not useless


[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

[SpankWustler]

I'm not saying that Regen spells are totally useless. I'm saying that Regen spells are not nearly as useful as they were because of the increase in Cure MP efficiency, and that this is a big change in mechanics worthy of note. It's very likely big enough that it is worthwhile to change one's strategy and possibly merits in response.

Currently, Regen spells are still very useful when Cure spells aren't super-duper MP efficient due to a lack of equipment. I personally still use Regen IV at times outside of Abyssea because, honestly, my equipment is pretty awful thanks to my last hiatus (I have Orison Pantaloons +2, but I can't get my cure potency quite high enough to get really efficient numbers yet and I do not yet have Orison Bliault +2).

I still recognize, however, that with an ideal set equipped Cure IV and Cure V pretty much obsolete the Regen line of spells. I like the Regen line of spells a lot, so this is a disappointment for me, but math is math and numbers are numbers.

I'd really like for someone who knows more about ideal gear for curing than myself to run the math for Cure IV efficiency while taking the Stoneskin effect and Orison Pantaloons +2 into account. I did some quick and dirty napkin math without even saving anything in notepad and probably getting some numbers wrong, which came out to around 13.6 HP / MP but I'm sure there's a more accurate number out there.

There are definitely times when Cure V isn't needed, that much is very true.

[Vortex]

I'm not saying that Regen spells are totally useless. I'm saying that Regen spells are not nearly as useful as they were because of the increase in Cure MP efficiency, and that this is a big change in mechanics worthy of note. It's very likely big enough that it is worthwhile to change one's strategy and possibly merits in response.

Currently, Regen spells are still very useful when Cure spells aren't super-duper MP efficient due to a lack of equipment. I personally still use Regen IV at times outside of Abyssea because, honestly, my equipment is pretty awful thanks to my last hiatus (I have Orison Pantaloons +2, but I can't get my cure potency quite high enough to get really efficient numbers yet and I do have Orison Bliault +2).

I still recognize, however, that with an ideal set equipped Cure IV and Cure V pretty much obsolete the Regen line of spells. I like the Regen line of spells a lot, so this is a disappointment for me, but math is math and numbers are numbers.

I'd really like for someone who knows more about ideal gear for curing than myself to run the math for Cure IV efficiency while taking the Stoneskin effect and Orison Pantaloons +2 into account. I did some quick and dirty napkin math without even saving anything in notepad and probably getting some numbers wrong, which came out to around 13.6 HP / MP but I'm sure there's a more accurate number out there.

There are definitely times when Cure V isn't needed, that much is very true.

got to love when a mod buctchers your post because the truth was to hurtful to someone and they decided to cry.

in anycase as a whm you would have to be ready for any sitation, weither they realized this fact or not regen was there to save mp, 6 is never used outside because it is to much MP and often over cures someone, 5 and 6 aren't THAT far apart, you're better with 5 in most cases if your set is decent. i'm not going to keep expalaning how to use regen properly, as it's apprent that if i make someone QQ they go running to a mod, it is something that should come natural to whms when playing the job i hardly use it my self but i don't really do any heavy content outside abyssea as opposed to7 5 days. but i'll toss it in there when needed. guess we need actual challanges now.

[SpankWustler]

got to love when a mod buctchers your post because the truth was to hurtful to someone and they decided to cry.

in anycase as a whm you would have to be ready for any sitation, weither they realized this fact or not regen was there to save mp, 6 is never used outside because it is to much MP and often over cures someone, 5 and 6 aren't THAT far apart, you're better with 5 in most cases if your set is decent. i'm not going to keep expalaning how to use regen properly, as it's apprent that if i make someone QQ they go running to a mod, it is something that should come natural to whms when playing the job i hardly use it my self but i don't really do any heavy content outside abyssea as opposed to7 5 days. but i'll toss it in there when needed. guess we need actual challanges now.

I was referencing Cure IV, since it is more appropriate when someone is missing less HP but needs a cure anyway. Cure VI is pretty much useless outside of Abyssea, and provides the only way to run out of MP within Abyssea.

[Vortex]

I was referencing Cure IV, since it is more appropriate when someone is missing less HP but needs a cure anyway. Cure VI is pretty much useless outside of Abyssea, and provides the only way to run out of MP within Abyssea.

oh 4, i miss read it >.> yea 4 can very efficient if you're potency is caped. unless they are in red hp 4 can get the job done, even in abyssea in some cases.

[Mirage]

Well guys, if Aleste's math is wrong, you guys disagreeing should just show us where and why, and this whole argument would be over!

[SpankWustler]

Well guys, if Aleste's math is wrong, you guys disagreeing should just show us where and why, and this whole argument would be over!

I agree with Aleste's math totally. I'd actually like to see the numbers for more spells because it looks like a good Cure IV beats the line Regen by a noticeable margin as well (not by NEARLY as much as Cure V, but it should come out ahead unless I really mucked things up).

I was referring to my own scribblings in notepad when I mentioned suspect math, since I didn't account for FFXI's relentless flooring process.

[Aleste]

:: Warning :: This post contains mathematics; TL;DR section at the end

Hrmm... there was me hoping to crush that argument... but alas~

As far as efficiency numbers go...

Regen 3, 20/tick, 64 MP, 5s casting time
Regen 3 (no gear, no merits - 400hp) 6.25 HP/MP
Regen 3 (no gear, merits - 500hp) 7.81 HP/MP
Regen 3 (gear, no merits - 575hp) 8.98 HP/MP
Regen 3 (gear, merits - 700hp) 10.93 HP/MP

Regen 4, 30/tick, 82 MP, 5s casting time
Regen 4 (no gear, no merits - 600hp) 7.31 HP/MP
Regen 4 (no gear, merits - 700hp) 8.53 HP/MP
Regen 4 (gear, no merits - 825hp) 10.06 HP/MP
Regen 4 (gear, merits - 975hp) 11.98 HP/MP

Low Quality WHM Cures
(601 power)

Cure 3, 252HP (88SS), 46 MP, 2.5s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 5.47 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 7.39 HP/MP

Cure 4, 508HP (177SS), 88 MP, 2.5s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 5.77 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 7.78 HP/MP

Cure 5, 885HP(221SS), 135 MP, 2.5s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 6.55 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 8.19 HP/MP

Cure 6, 1096HP(274SS), 227 MP, 2.5s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 4.83 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 5.28 HP/MP

High Quality WHM Cures
(811 power)

Cure 3, 306HP (107SS), 27 MP, 1.25s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 11.33 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 15.96 HP/MP

Cure 4, 621HP (217SS), 49 MP, 1.25s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 12.67 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 17.10 HP/MP

Cure 5, 1093HP(382SS), 68 MP, 1.25s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 16.07 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 21.68 HP/MP

Cure 6, 1452HP(400SS), 155 MP, 1.25s casting time
Full cure and no stoneskin, 9.37 HP/MP
Full cure and stoneskin, 11.94 HP/MP

With 'gear' for Regen being Cleric's Briault and Orison Mitts +2.
'Low Quality WHM' for cures being Nobles body, Light Staff, AF3+1 head = 27% Potency
'High Quality WHM', /sch +49%pot, capped skill+merits, Orison Bliaud +2, Orison Pantaloons +2, +70MND gear




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hate math and TL;DR:

If you're a junk WHM;

Regen4(merits) 8.53
Cure5 (SS) 8.19
Regen3(merits) 7.81
Cure4 (SS) 7.78
Cure3 (SS) 7.39
Regen4 (no merits) 7.31
Cure5 (noSS) 6.55
Regen3 (no merits) 6.25
Cure4 (noSS) 5.77
Cure3 (noSS) 5.47
Cure6 (SS) 5.28
Cure6 (noSS) 4.83

If you're a pro WHM;

Cure5 (SS) 21.68
Cure4 (SS) 17.10
Cure5 (no SS) 16.07
Cure3 (SS) 15.96
Cure4 (no SS) 12.67
Regen 4 (merits) 11.98
Cure6 (SS) 11.94
Cure3 (no SS) 11.33
Regen 3 (merits) 10.93
Regen 4 (no merits) 10.06
Cure6 (no SS) 9.37
Regen 3 (no merits) 8.98

[SpankWustler]

Awesome. That goes above and beyond anything I asked for, and I'm very appreciative of seeing it all sorted out. Thanks a ton.

[Aleste]

No problem, I was going to draw a graph, but then I couldn't be bothered.

I'm actually quite surprised at the efficiency numbers, I'll probably start using Regen less now ~.~;

[Vortex]

Awesome. That goes above and beyond anything I asked for, and I'm very appreciative of seeing it all sorted out. Thanks a ton.

see what sorted out, what was already known and still had nothing to do with what was being said?

[Economizer]

The Regen spells really need revamped to be honest. Meriting them is a waste these days, and unless you are toying around or not wearing your gear, they are a waste of MP.

At this point, you are a terribly geared White Mage if Regen is MP efficient for you, and letting members sit in yellow MP just to use the spell is risky behavior. Playing safe and playing MP efficient are generally the indicators of a good White Mage.


Hrmm... there was me hoping to crush that argument... but alas~

I'm somewhat disappointed you didn't include Regen in that list. It can be useful for keeping people eating poison pots or charging Sublimation at full HP, although in the second case, they should have access to the spell themselves. Without gear/merits: 8.3 HP/MP, geared/merited: 22 HP/MP; /sch 9.6 HP/MP, gear/merit/sch: 25.3 HP/MP.

Of course, there aren't many situations where waiting this out would be a good idea. Also, Stoneskin can give something like 12-17HP/MP depending on gear/sub, which is a valid choice when self healing if casting time isn't an issue, but if it is, Regen is likely to be something you don't want to cast either. I highly doubt at this point there is a lot of good reasons to cast Regen aside from the ones mentioned here by me, and the handful mentioned by SpankWustler. The math backs up any logical points that could be made.

As a final side point, I decided to see if Regen was better for a well geared Scholar using Perpetuance (15.63 HP/MP) vs the numbers you gave for a well geared White Mage casting Regen III (10.93 HP/MP) and the numbers are very clear. This makes me wonder why Scholar didn't get Regen IV, since they're more of the DOT guys then White Mage...

[Vortex]

Edit: forget it, it's not worth the trouble anymore, it feels like trying to teach a mouse to play fetch, carry on.

i'll have to accept that WHM is to hard for certain people. and these forums proved it.

[Mirage]

Why, do you disagree with mathematics?

I'm sorry, but no matter how much you disagree with 2+2 equaling 4, it will always equal 4.

[Vortex]

Why, do you disagree with mathematics?

I'm sorry, but no matter how much you disagree with 2+2 equaling 4, it will always equal 4.

Sigh. Yes, because saying Regen is not useless is disagreeing with mathmatics. why do i even bother? the math he posted was irrelvent and had NOTHING to do with my main point i was making. but reading comphrehesion is pretty hard as well,

its more like you telling me 2+2 equals 4 and i'm talking about biology.

[Jerbob]

Wow, this is a depressing read. I love Regen and it's not good to see these numbers. Regen has got to be at tip top efficiency levels or it's just not going to be worth the long casting time or risk in most situations.

I agree with the "Regen overhall" crowd. Even before I knew it was inefficient to use I had problems with Regen. Perhaps something like this:

1. Increase potency and duration linearly with Afflatus Solace and Misery stored power to a point where higher tier Regen is roughly 1.5 times the efficiency of Cure, comparing like for like in terms of gear/merits.
2. Tie Regen to Afflatus Solace in a similar way to Cure stoneskin effects - "Pause" the regen effect when the target is at full HP and either resume the effect when damage is taken, or "store" the regen ticks and restore them in a lump.
3. Reduce casting time by 25%.

Something like this would hit all of Regen's problems - (1) the efficiency, (2) the issue with people curing over the top as well as "pre-emptive regen" on tanks, and (3) the difficulty in using Regen in situations where we've got to be fast. Tying 1 and 2 to Afflatus stances keeps Regen a WHM speciality, regardless of what SCH wants everyone to believe, and provides us with more unique tools when RDM and SCH inevitably (and deservedly) get access to their Cure 4.5 or Cure V.

[Aleste]

Sigh. Yes, because saying Regen is not useless is disagreeing with mathmatics. why do i even bother? the math he posted was irrelvent and had NOTHING to do with my main point i was making. but reading comphrehesion is pretty hard as well,

I really hate writing long posts, so I'll be blunt.

Cure 3, and cure 5 in misery are vastly more efficient than Regen 4 WITH MERITS. In solace cure 3 is 1.5 TIMES more efficient, and cure 5 is TWICE as efficient. This is NOT accounting for the time taken to cast the appropriate spells, and the decreased time you'll spend mid-cast where you cannot quickly react to any changes in the situation.

Regen spells only ever had the efficiency going for them at the time of release. At the time they were the most efficient healing spell around, however its efficiency has barely increased with the release of Orison Mitts +2. However, with the release of Afflatus Solace, Orison Pantaloons +2 and Orison Bliaud +2 this has changed. Hell, there have been more cure cast time- gear released with each passing version, pushing us towards better, quicker and more efficient cure spells.

Over curing has become a bit of a null issue in correct gear, even if you over cure by ~50% with cure 5 in the above mathematics you will STILL end up with a higher efficiency than Regen 4 (with gear AND merits).

Don't get me wrong, Regen spells DO have a very VERY rare situational use and the only MP EFFICIENT time to cast it is when you're stark naked or when you have (specific pieces of) gear stripped from you.


i'll have to accept that WHM is to hard for certain people. and these forums proved it.

Yes, you are a lost cause... almost every poster in this thread seems to have a better understanding of white mage than you.

[Mirage]

Sigh. Yes, because saying Regen is not useless is disagreeing with mathmatics. why do i even bother? the math he posted was irrelvent and had NOTHING to do with my main point i was making. but reading comphrehesion is pretty hard as well,

its more like you telling me 2+2 equals 4 and i'm talking about biology.

Well then, when is regen useful? When you want a fast cure? No. When you want an MP efficient cure? Not really, with decent gear, it is less MP efficient. When you want to be able to quickly react to changing situations? No, regen has a much longer cast time than Cure spells, even before you add gear/merits that reduce cure casting time

Please explain in a convincing manner when it is that regen is a better choice, because you haven't properly done so yet.

If all the effects of the Regen spells are done better with other spells, then there is no word that fits regen better than "useless".

If perhaps Regen spells were nearly instant cast, with a very short recast timer, or at least a *single* property that was better than the cure spells, then it could be situationally useful again.

[SpankWustler]

Sigh. Yes, because saying Regen is not useless is disagreeing with mathmatics. why do i even bother? the math he posted was irrelvent and had NOTHING to do with my main point i was making. but reading comphrehesion is pretty hard as well,

its more like you telling me 2+2 equals 4 and i'm talking about biology.

Since you seem to be incapable of expressing yourself through any method of communication other than juvenile insults, I'll just guess at the idea you so desperately want to express through adult language.

Are you trying to say, "Regen is useful when you really, really want everyone's HP to stay white without casting a lot of Cure spells" ?

[Mirage]

We should get a regen 5 with a 30-35 hp/mp ratio. That would be kinda cool I guess. Oh and of course accessionable.

[Feynman]

All this begs the question though. How long, on average, does it take a post to sway horribly away from the OPs original point? We could do an average across the entire forum. Find the average in both time and number of posts. Bet both would be a low number!

However, this was very informative. I haven't really leveled WHM (43) but need to be working on it some for sub soon. As someone who works in a heavily mathematically related field I'm easily swayed but numbers and good data. Thanks Aleste for the work putting your list together!

[Aleste]

In fairness, it's not horribly off-topic, the OP was talking about a cumulative healing over time effect which then turned into a regen discussion.

Either way, I'm in favour of stronger regen gear rather than strengthening our cures. Hell, even tweak it so that higher healing magic skill grants additional potency to it so that multiple jobs (rdm and sch) get a buff out of it.

It's a little sad considering that one of our staple spells has been left in the dust.

[Malacite]

tl;dr

Sucks to Pray, give us Blessing instead :D

[Vortex]

my reading comphrensible is very horrible and i did not read or understand what you were talking about i will make up some stupid, retarded post because in order to make my self feel better and keep swaying this topic in a direction to insult you as much as i can with false accusations and crap i make up, hopefully this following sentence will make me look even more childish: Since you seem to be incapable of expressing yourself through any method of communication other than juvenile insults, I'll just guess at the idea you so desperately want to express through adult language.

Are you trying to say, "Regen is useful when you really, really want everyone's HP to stay white without casting a lot of Cure spells" ?

Fixed for accuracy, i am done with this discussion, and your half-brained, dumb post just proved further that people like you just jump to and belive whatever you want to, i could explain it, but then i will get another "since you are acting the way i am" post so forget it, i don't know where this topic will go now but this matter is considerd closed. cast whatever you want, do whatever you want. don't care.

On topic.

Seems we would need a different approchwith cumulitive healing sort of like helix spells with large bursts of Hp recovery but with longer ticks. since regen is little to difficult, oh excuse me "Not effective" for certain people i guess it is time for something new.

[SpankWustler]

I apologize for the harsh tone of my post. That was hypocritical of me and I probably just wrote in such a way because my head was pounding this morning. Sorry.

Can you explain in clear language when you would use Regen for a reason other than MP efficiency, please?

[Mirage]

How many ticks it take for all the hp to be regenerated doesn't really change the MP efficiency. Of course, if that's incorrect, please explain why.

I'm still hoping you can show us an example where regen is a better choice than a normal cure in a fight that is hard enough to actually matter. All I'm seeing is you getting mad at people because they don't take your word for it when you say regen is useful without giving any good examples or mathematics to back it up.

[Vortex]

I apologize for the harsh tone of my post. It was hypocritical of me and I probably just wrote like that because my head was pounding this morning. Sorry.

Can you explain in clear language when you'd use Regen for a reason out of MP efficiency, please?

During certain NMs with bad, unremovable poison or bio ( i mentioned this before ) during phases where if i know mp will drain quickly so i can use the lesser cures more often then higher cures (cure 3-4) while regen tops off the hp that was missing if they are not taking constant damage, The uses are rare but they are there and obviously very situaional, tho i am used to 75 days where it was a god send and i stuck to my method of playing whm for years, main thing is i refuse to let abyssea "spoil" my playstyle, it has worked fine for me since, and i wish to keep it when things happen outside again, and yes it has died down since then but i still use it when it's needed.

WHM is not a hard job, most people can get away with the "cure till the mob is dead" playstyle and that is honestly what is ticking me off. but i grin and bare it.

Obviously i raged, but i hate when people say certain spells are "useless" or "not worth it" because they fail to try or actually use it correctly.

Never said i "replaced" regen with cures. i am not dumb and just regen with somone in yellow HP or about to die.

there. that all you needed?

[SpankWustler]

During certain NMs with bad, unremovable poison or bio ( i mentioned this before ) during phases where if i know mp will drain quickly so i can use the lesser cures more often then higher cures (cure 3-4) while regen tops off the hp that was missing if they are not taking constant damage, The uses are rare but they are there and obviously very situaional, tho i am used to 75 days where it was a god send and i stuck to my method of playing whm for years, main thing is i refuse to let abyssea "spoil" my playstyle, it has worked fine for me since, and i wish to keep it when things happen outside again, and yes it has died down since then but i still use it when it's needed.

WHM is not a hard job, most people can get away with the "cure till the mob is dead" playstyle and that is honestly what is ticking me off. but i grin and bare it.

Obviously i raged, but i hate when people say certain spells are "useless" or "not worth it" because they fail to try or actually use it correctly.

Never said i "replaced" regen with cures. i am not dumb and just regen with somone in yellow HP or about to die.

there. that all you needed?

Thanks for taking the time to explain in detail.

While I'd personally just let people stay a little below full and cast Cure III more often to save a few more MP, I can understand how Regen could be useful in that situation and that sounds totally kosher.

I've met enough Cure V/Cure VI/AFK VII White Mages to understand some of your rage, I guess. I don't know what makes healing jobs in FFXI so hard to play, but I've encountered plenty of folks in-game who think status ailments age like a particularly smelly European cheese.

It's always a bad idea to totally dismiss any spell in White Mage's spell list, other than maybe Diaga, since the job has roughly two billion niche spells for two billion niches. Actually, Diaga is my favorite spell.

[Vortex]

Thanks for taking the time to explain in detail.

While I'd personally just let people stay a little below full and cast Cure III more often to save a few more MP, I can understand how Regen could be useful in that situation and that sounds totally kosher.

I've met enough Cure V/Cure VI/AFK VII White Mages to understand some of your rage, I guess. I don't know what makes healing jobs in FFXI so hard to play, but I've encountered plenty of folks in-game who think status ailments age like a particularly smelly European cheese.

It's always a bad idea to totally dismiss any spell in White Mage's spell list, other than maybe Diaga, since the job has roughly two billion niche spells for two billion niches. Actually, Diaga is my favorite spell.

Because whm requires you to pay attention and think to be good at it. and a surprising number of players have a hard time with these concepts, which is why DNC and SCH or not popular or you get that one idiot saying "this job sucks" because they are the 2 jobs that require ALOT of thinking to be good at. it's just how this community is. nothing you can do about, general rule with most players is if it's easy it's popular, which is why SAM and MNK were bandwagoned to hell because they require very little thinking, and are just mainly auto attack ---> press a macro. i hate that in this game but what can you do?

If you have ever played Demon's souls that type of fighting engine is what i wish FF had, you can't just "run up and attack" in that game or you will go no further then the 1st stage.

[Economizer]

It's always a bad idea to totally dismiss any spell in White Mage's spell list, other than maybe Diaga, since the job has roughly two billion niche spells for two billion niches. Actually, Diaga is my favorite spell.

That would totally have been relevant if anyone explaining why Regen is an MP inefficient way to cure people actually said there was never a use. You came up with a few niche reasons it should be used, I came up with a few niche reasons it should be used, and other commentators came up with a few niche reasons it should have been used, but those were ignored in favor of telling us we are crappy White Mages who don't know how to play the job.

Also, Diaga is not my favorite spell, but it is my most MP efficient one for wiping shadows.

[SpankWustler]

Also, Diaga is not my favorite spell, but it is my most MP efficient one for wiping shadows.

Oh, I use it for wiping something, but it's not shadows!

Actually, that's a good point about Diaga. I've always used Banishga every time entirely out of habit, since I'm in the frame of mind that I'm getting rid of the shadows so I can sleep something with Repose even when that's not the case.

As for the rest, I tend to be a jerk due to chronic pain so I often make a conscious effort to think positively about what motivates people, the chances of something just being a misunderstanding, etc. Even on the internet when it doesn't really matter that much, I find it to be very good practice.

So, I'd like to think that Vortex just went a bit overboard, in a big part because of me misunderstanding the extent to which he or she was advocating Regen.

[Vortex]

That would totally have been relevant if anyone explaining why Regen is an MP inefficient way to cure people actually said there was never a use. You came up with a few niche reasons it should be used, I came up with a few niche reasons it should be used, and other commentators came up with a few niche reasons it should have been used, but those were ignored in favor of telling us we are crappy White Mages who don't know how to play the job.

Wrong, but since the matter is droped, ill let you keep whatever helps you sleep at night.


Also, Diaga is not my favorite spell, but it is my most MP efficient one for wiping shadows.

Your sarcasm is neither funny nor intellegent, it''s kids like you that keep arguments going for no other reason then you need something to nit pick, like when i displayed a word that was true for you a few posts back you went and cried to a mod because your feelings got hurt, grow up.



So, I'd like to think that Vortex just went a bit overboard, in a big part because of me misunderstanding the extent to which he or she was advocating Regen.

It wasnt just you, most of what i said seemd to have been misunderstood, and some pople like economizer simply belive what they want and give passive aggresive responses because they are immature. but in this case i'd have to be the bigger person.

[Ahrana]

It wasnt just you, most of what i said seemd to have been misunderstood, and some pople like economizer simply belive what they want and give passive aggresive responses because they are immature. but in this case i'd have to be the bigger person.

Pot, meet kettle.

[Vortex]

Pot, meet kettle.

do you know what that means? because it does not apply to me in any way, unless you just felt like raising your post count by 1.

[Ahrana]

do you know what that means? because it does not apply to me in any way, unless you just felt like raising your post count by 1.

I think you just proved my point more elegantly than I could have.

Or else you're just a troll, and after rereading this thread I think it's completely possible. I'll still wave to you in game though <3

[Vortex]

I think you just proved my point more elegantly than I could have.

Or else you're just a troll, and after rereading this thread I think it's completely possible. I'll still wave to you in game though <3

that you just wanted a +1? i guess i did prove it .

Post count+2

whatever helps you sleep at night. btw try out a dictionary. it is already clear you are a troll. but yea, have a nice day.

you don;t really have to wave, it will just make me feel bad and the exact same as a sloberring cross eyed kid waving at me and smiling.

[Xero]

You misspelled Dictionary.

[Vortex]

You misspelled Dictionary.

Nice nit picking, thanks for proving my point, what flavor cookie would you like?

i even edited it since it was that important to you.

[Aleste]

>.>;

So much for an intelligent discussion on regen-esque effects and how they should be buffed due to inadequate scaling of it's potency against newly released gear...

SE, we've seen a vast quantity of gear released in the form of cure potency and cure cast time-, and yet, almost nothing in the form of enhancements to regen.

One of our staple spells, known for it's HP:MP efficiency has been far outclassed by the cure series of spells which have almost double the efficiency.

Are we getting regen V before balances across the regen spells are made or is there a reason why regen spells have been neglected?

[Bubeeky]

I would use regens more often if they functioned more like regen in FFVII, where it wasn't in intervals, but a continuous increase in your hp over the duration of the spell...I doubt they could implement that style of regen exactly, but they could make the healing intervals cut in half...I'd suggest a JA that does something like halves the duration of regens for twice the power or something, but I'd prefer just a change to the spells as imo they are meant to be like afterthought cures that we don't really have to focus on.

I'd also like to see regen's casting time and spell cost reduced (possibly scaling casting time and/or mp cost with healing magic skill?) so they are more mp efficient and thus more worth using than just cure bombing everything.