Thanks for Temper SE

[saevel]

I know a bunch of non-RDM's are jumping into the forum to express their discontent at not being buffed by RDM again. Just wanted to express thanks from an actual RDM who doesn't want to cycle yet another spell on 4~5 people. Yes I would of appreciated if it worked with the SCH ability Accession, but barring that I believe it was a good attempt at giving RDM a melee buff.

I do not find this spell useless, I will use it consistently along with Gain-STR. I wish you would introduce more enhancements along this line, either self cast buffs or aoe cast buffs, but never another single target buff.

Thanks and have a good day.

[Ragni]

Just wanted to express thanks from an actual RDM who doesn't want to cycle yet another spell on 4~5 people.

And you call yourself RDM? lol

[Daniel_Hatcher]

And you call yourself RDM? lol

/sigh

A RDM isn't a buffer regardless what SE wants to pretend.

BRD, COR even SMN and WHM are better buffers. No AoE = Not a buffer

RDM's spells consist of self-target 99% of the time so they're a self buffer and nothing else.

[DebbieGibson]

/sigh

A RDM isn't a buffer regardless what SE wants to pretend.

BRD, COR even SMN and WHM are better buffers. No AoE = Not a buffer

RDM's spells consist of self-target 99% of the time so they're a self buffer and nothing else.

dumb post.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

dumb post.

Dumb is arguing they are.... what do they get to enhance: Haste.... Phalanx II if you merit it, if that deems a job a buffer people are stupid.

[DebbieGibson]

Dumb is arguing they are.... what do they get to enhance: Haste.... Phalanx II if you merit it, if that deems a job a buffer people are stupid.

haste is 15% reduction in delay. dia3 is 15% atk+ to the whole party. How is that not a buffer job? That's better than a bard can do.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Haste was added lets be honest because they didn't see the need to add another haste and make it self target only.

Look at what RDM gets to buff itself, then what they get to buff the party. They're a self-buffer with Haste.

Dia is an enfeeblement, I never said they didn't enfeeble. That's not buffing a party in reality though.

ETA: I don't mind them being a buffer but there is no denying as it stands RDM is far from what SE claim it to be.

[Ragni]

RDM is called jack of all trades so he is buffer too!

Protect
Shell
Refresh
Regen
Haste
Phalanx

That's enough to call RDM buffer!

And you ppl are happy that you dont need to cast more buffs ? :confused:

[Duelle]

haste is 15% reduction in delay. dia3 is 15% atk+ to the whole party. How is that not a buffer job? That's better than a bard can do.It's not. Call me when RDM can increase Max HP, Max MP, increase physical and magical crit rates, can make people walk faster, can increase baseline attack power, can increase baseline defense (provided defense is fixed to work as it should have since the beginning), increase resistance to critical hits, increases casting speeds, increases magic attack, increase magic defense, can increase all stats by 10%, and grants the ability to drain 6-9% of damage done as HP; all baseline without the need of a subjob and castable on others. Then you might be able to call RDM a buffer job.

I second the OP's sentiment. I'm thankful for Temper and look forward to seeing additional changes to compliment it. Hopefully, some of the changes will favor our melee side. I know we have a review of combat proficiencies planned for later, but there's still much work to be done. *nod*

[Lago]

Temper will be great for career red mages in solo/duo situations, and if that applies to you then there's no reason you shouldn't be happy about that. However, unless it's a part of something bigger that hasn't been announced, like some sort of buff aura or AoE buff transfer, it does nothing to increase our utility in parties, and it's still hard to imagine why someone who has leveled ninja or blue mage would ever choose to fill a melee/support role in a party as a red mage instead. Those are perfectly good reasons to complain.

[Shiyo]

If temper didn't exist, I wouldn't notice a difference.

[DebbieGibson]

It's not. Call me when RDM can increase Max HP, Max MP, increase physical and magical crit rates, can make people walk faster, can increase baseline attack power, can increase baseline defense (provided defense is fixed to work as it should have since the beginning), increase resistance to critical hits, increases casting speeds, increases magic attack, increase magic defense, can increase all stats by 10%, and grants the ability to drain 6-9% of damage done as HP; all baseline without the need of a subjob and castable on others. Then you might be able to call RDM a buffer job.


Oh yeah all that useless shit, you're right.

[Romanova]

A RDM isn't a buffer regardless what SE wants to pretend.




A RDM isn't a buffer regardless what SE wants to pretend.





A RDM isn't a buffer regardless what SE wants to pretend.





A RDM isn't a buffer regardless what SE wants to pretend.





A RDM isn't a buffer regardless what SE wants to pretend.





A RDM isn't a buffer regardless what SE wants to pretend.





A RDM isn't a buffer regardless what SE wants to pretend.





A RDM isn't a buffer regardless what SE wants to pretend.




A RDM isn't a buffer regardless what SE wants to pretend.


Seeing if blood is going to come out my nose....

SE can make the jobs w/e they want.....I just...wow...

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Seeing if blood is going to come out my nose....

SE can make the jobs w/e they want.....I just...wow...

Very good... They can make them want they want. Now read the Manifesto where they tried to claim RDM was this already...

[Romanova]

Very good... They can make them want they want. Now read the Manifesto where they tried to claim RDM was this already...

I buff all the time on rdm....so....

[Rayik]

I buff all the time on rdm....so....

Obvious troll is obvious?

Reminds me of a qoute from Fight Club:
"Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken."

Casting a handful of buff spells, which several other jobs get AoE versions that are more potent, does not make you a buffer. DRK is not a buffer just because they can "buff" themselves with Dread Spikes and Absorb spells.

[Swords]

I buff all the time on rdm....so....

Now compare what RDM's got that other jobs don't already have, have an AoE version of, or something better.

Really my biggest fear about new buffs is the fact we already have a heavy casting load and are almost always busy, but what happens if they continue to give us more more and more single target stuff to cast on party members to make them into these veritable "demi-gods" that SE claims.

Sooner or later a line is going to have to be drawn in order to compromise the amount of buffs we'll have to cast on any given amount of people, because even with extended duration's we're going to hit that brick wall where our casting load is going to outweigh the time we have to actually buff. Which is why many of both the pro and anti melee crowd are pushing some form of AoE type buffs or ability to do so which should alleviate a large portion of our casting loads.

[Romanova]

You guys really need to reread the first three posts before you assume anything about me.

lemme recap for you:

1. I hate buffing as an rdm

2. you call yourself an rdm if you hate buffing?

3. RDM AREN'T BUFFERS EVEN IF SE SAYS THEY ARE

Then I came in and said "wtf?"

No where did I say our buffing is perfect or that we are number 1 or that things don't need to be changed.

We are buffers however, and yes I agree that I think any changes they do to rdm should enhance both our buffing and debuffing abilities.

When I am on rdm most of my time is spent buffing/debuffing. we are buffers.

[Rayik]

You guys really need to reread the first three posts before you assume anything about me.

lemme recap for you:

1. I hate buffing as an rdm

2. you call yourself an rdm if you hate buffing?

3. RDM AREN'T BUFFERS EVEN IF SE SAYS THEY ARE

Then I came in and said "wtf?"

No where did I say our buffing is perfect or that we are number 1 or that things don't need to be changed.

We are buffers however, and yes I agree that I think any changes they do to rdm should enhance both our buffing and debuffing abilities.

When I am on rdm most of my time is spent buffing/debuffing. we are buffers.

Alrighty then. I retract my snark and apologize. *puts snark back in snark case*

[Rayik]

If temper didn't exist, I wouldn't notice a difference.

It's not even in the game yet, of course you don't notice a difference.

[TRiPP]

Agreed with Romanova.
A noticeable increase for buffs would greatly be appreciated as well as debuffs. However I don't know if I'd go as far as 'turning party members into demi-gods' would actually be uh... implemented. Cause everyone else will cry out overpower.

[Lilia]

Buffjobs for me are BRD,COR,SMN,and WHM.
RDM is for me a all in one solo player. But the spells can help the party @ healing,buffs,debuffs,nuke, and...

What for buffs you want? hastega, DAga,.... other buffjobs have the spell.
please Stoneskin2 or Blink2

[Manque]

You RDM's should really check your temper on this one!

badda boom shh

In other news, this RDM was walkin' into a barspell...

[Shiyo]

Now compare what RDM's got that other jobs don't already have, have an AoE version of, or something better.

Really my biggest fear about new buffs is the fact we already have a heavy casting load and are almost always busy, but what happens if they continue to give us more more and more single target stuff to cast on party members to make them into these veritable "demi-gods" that SE claims.

Sooner or later a line is going to have to be drawn in order to compromise the amount of buffs we'll have to cast on any given amount of people, because even with extended duration's we're going to hit that brick wall where our casting load is going to outweigh the time we have to actually buff. Which is why many of both the pro and anti melee crowd are pushing some form of AoE type buffs or ability to do so which should alleviate a large portion of our casting loads.

This doesn't make sense, we have so much free time inbetween haste/refresh cycles as it is with af3 set bonus, af3+2 boots and af3 cape :/

They would have to add like 20 spells for that to even be true at all.

[saevel]

Hey no fair, the mod moved the post but left the OTHER post there. The one where a player was asking SE to change Temper to party cast.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13131-reply-to-Thread-dev1024-Job-Adjustments

That post was the entire reason I started this just so that the dev's didn't the impression that the actual RDM's of the game didn't like Temper.

The RDM's like it, its everyone else who wants it cast on them.

[Duelle]

That post was the entire reason I started this just so that the dev's didn't the impression that the actual RDM's of the game didn't like Temper.

The RDM's like it, its everyone else who wants it cast on them.Well, not much is known about the spell to declare it a success or a dud, but I'm hopeful it is a step towards ending the RDM war. :O

[Ruvion]

haste is 15% reduction in delay. dia3 is 15% atk+ to the whole party. How is that not a buffer job? That's better than a bard can do.

Dia is an enfeeb/debuff, not enhancing spell the last time I checked.

[DebbieGibson]

Dia is an enfeeb/debuff, not enhancing spell the last time I checked.

Well it enhances the shit out of the melee's attacks from what I can tell.

[SpankWustler]

Call me when RDM can increase Max HP, Max MP, increase physical and magical crit rates, can make people walk faster, can increase baseline attack power, can increase baseline defense (provided defense is fixed to work as it should have since the beginning), increase resistance to critical hits, increases casting speeds, increases magic attack, increase magic defense, can increase all stats by 10%, and grants the ability to drain 6-9% of damage done as HP; all baseline without the need of a subjob and castable on others.

The funny thing here is that -15% delay for melees and 6-7 MP a tick for mages are better than everything you just mentioned. You listed a veritable cornucopia of stuff that isn't as useful as you think, isn't useful in battle, or isn't useful at all.

That aside, maybe Temper won't be as horrid as the Tier II en-spells and will actually make somebody happy. That happy person won't be anyone I know who plays Red Mage, but it's not like the job is in a bad way currently.

I'm not sure why people act shocked Temper is self-cast only, considering the "new type of en-spell" mentioned and all. I would have been surprised, but happy, if it could be cast on others.

[Swords]

This doesn't make sense, we have so much free time inbetween haste/refresh cycles as it is with af3 set bonus, af3+2 boots and af3 cape :/

They would have to add like 20 spells for that to even be true at all.

I'm speaking generally, not everyone will be fully equipped or have the time to consistently farm for gear. Frankly I'm surprised you have "free time" outside of buffing, debuffing, support-nuking, and backup-curing, but if you have the time to do whatever between cycles, then there's no reason you shouldn't find something to do with that time be it melee or otherwise.

[Economizer]

Temper is a nice addition to Red Mage, probably the best mage melee buff since Auspice pre-nerf. Of course, we'll have to see what the double attack rate is, but I'm hoping it is based on Enhancing Magic skill, and stacks with enspells.

The only way I can see SE making the buff AOE at this point (aside from a bunch of whining) would be to make it so the Red Mage has to hit the mob in order for other party members to be affected. Of course, this could cause problems with party members who have multihit weapons.

SE has sent a clear message to Red Mages interested in occasionally meleeing things. Whether you are soloing an NM, the primary damage dealer on an NM, or are just in an experience party, this buff will find a use for the most resourceful of Red Mages. Maybe now Red Mages can once again show others why they have a feather in their cap.


I'm not sure why people act shocked Temper is self-cast only

Because the "heavy damage" players in this game are ruining the metagame for anyone who wants to have fun doing damage as any class other then the chosen classes. Any hint of what they deem "support classes" being able to do something that isn't soul sucking spell spam or cycling is frowned upon and they scream about how you are playing the job you play wrong.

Any hint of someone finding a workable build to do something interesting, despite working harder to do it is either dismissed, or if it can't be dismissed, it is complained about until they can get the class features that allow the build to be gimped.

I've seen so many people get burned out on playing certain classes because of the way they are told their classes are played. Of course, these days "heavy damage" players just pay another monthly fee so they never have to worry about burning out another person buffing and healing again.

[Eric]

I've said it before, RDM is more enfeebler than buffer. People just abuse the poor guys because they have fast-cast, refresh, and happen to be one of the 2 jobs that can cast haste. (I'm talking about before the level cap increase). Unfortunately, with the way game mechanics work, those two spells are more important than any other buff available.

[Rayik]

Well it enhances the shit out of the melee's attacks from what I can tell.

And Ukko's Fury enfeebles the hell out of a mob's HP, but it's not an enfeeble...

[Shiyo]

I'm speaking generally, not everyone will be fully equipped or have the time to consistently farm for gear. Frankly I'm surprised you have "free time" outside of buffing, debuffing, support-nuking, and backup-curing, but if you have the time to do whatever between cycles, then there's no reason you shouldn't find something to do with that time be it melee or otherwise.

Full af3 takes like a week to get @_@ It's very easy to get too. I nuke or cure inbetween my cycles, I can't melee because I can't carry mage gear AND melee gear, or sub a real sub(/sch) and a melee sub(/nin) so meleeing anything as /sch is pretty much crap.

[Greatguardian]

The whole "You have nothing else to do so you may as well Melee and contribute something" argument is and always has been 110% fallacious. It's just a fallback for people who don't know any better and want to feel like there is absolutely no opportunity cost associated with pulling out a sword and whacking away.

[Rayik]

The whole "You have nothing else to do so you may as well Melee and contribute something" argument is and always has been 110% fallacious. It's just a fallback for people who don't know any better and want to feel like there is absolutely no opportunity cost associated with pulling out a sword and whacking away.

I agree to an extent, but it depends more on your current role in the party. If you are there specifically to perform magery duties, then yes, pulling out a sword and whacking at the mob is counter-productive to your role. You are doing the party a disservice by neglecting some of your duties.

*If the magery duties are already being covered, and the mob isn't "OMG SCARY TP MOVE" kind, then why not add some extra damage?


*Disclaimer: Yes, yes, we all know this situation is less likely in the current state of the game, but does crop up more often than you'd think.

EDIT: Here's a quick and easy example. I joined up with a group just doing simple AF seal NM's. We allied with a BLM and after he got yellow proc, the rest of the party just went to town destroying the NM's quickly. If the proc was attained, there's no immediate danger(zomg cast Cure with a sword in hand! oh noes!), then why not draw a sword and join in?

[Greatguardian]

Because, every single time, you'll do more for the group by doing something else that isn't melee.

Whether it's adding nuke damage, or pulling additional monsters, or handling crowd control, or simply splitting up and fighting a second NM, a Red Mage will always have something better to do than Melee. Always.

If you are seriously sitting there with absolutely nothing to do, go solo an NM or build some lights. Make yourself useful. If you already have a Black Mage and a White Mage there, go solo another NM that drops seals people want. Go farm more pop items while the rest of the group kills the NM. Go do one of the million other things that would contribute more to yourself and your group than whacking away with a sword.

[VraeliaRDM]

Yeah.....Dia reduces DEF of the mob....but it is not a buffer. Only an Enfeeble Spell. Not an Enhancing spell. There's a difference. Learn it.

To be quite frank: Yes, RDMs have a shit load of things to buff everyone with (including self) but, I don't understand why SE doesn't give us some sort of MAX MP Trait. We have so much shit to cast, with so very little MP. (I'm talking about outside of Abyssea events, mind you). I would love to consider a RDM a buffer, if SE would give us more MP to cast more spells with. Or give us a Job Trait 'Cut spell MP Cost by half' or something along those lines.

I don't know how much MP all the other RDMs have but I have around 1k with mine. And it does in fact drain MP to cast every single buff spell for every single person. Any RDM would know this. It's a strain on us. Plus, I don't need to emphasize that we also Enfeeble and Heal. Even with Convert it's bad. And adding more and more spells for RDMs to cast...yeah.....no comment.

I agree with a previous post, we are the Jack of all Trades....but are we the Jack of all MPs? No. To me, that's SMN's department.

OP, I agree with you. I am thrilled to have a spell that is self-target only.

[Romanova]

EDIT: Here's a quick and easy example. I joined up with a group just doing simple AF seal NM's. We allied with a BLM and after he got yellow proc, the rest of the party just went to town destroying the NM's quickly. If the proc was attained, there's no immediate danger(zomg cast Cure with a sword in hand! oh noes!), then why not draw a sword and join in?


If you guys are doing something easy that doesn't take focus, anyone can do w/e they want. I've had PUPs tank trash mobs n' stuff. That doesn't inspire me to run around and say PUPs should be tanks however.

Basically, yes the situation pops up, but those situations aren't really worth mentioning as really no matter what they do to a job you can basically break the "mold" to do w/e you want on simple stuff. easy mobs don't really define a job, because they don't require you to be "at your best".

[cidbahamut]

Yeah.....Dia reduces DEF of the mob....but it is not a buffer. Only an Enfeeble Spell. Not an Enhancing spell. There's a difference. Learn it.

To be quite frank: Yes, RDMs have a shit load of things to buff everyone with (including self) but, I don't understand why SE doesn't give us some sort of MAX MP Trait. We have so much shit to cast, with so very little MP. (I'm talking about outside of Abyssea events, mind you). I would love to consider a RDM a buffer, if SE would give us more MP to cast more spells with. Or give us a Job Trait 'Cut spell MP Cost by half' or something along those lines.

I don't know how much MP all the other RDMs have but I have around 1k with mine. And it does in fact drain MP to cast every single buff spell for every single person. Any RDM would know this. It's a strain on us. Plus, I don't need to emphasize that we also Enfeeble and Heal. Even with Convert it's bad. And adding more and more spells for RDMs to cast...yeah.....no comment.

I agree with a previous post, we are the Jack of all Trades....but are we the Jack of all MPs? No. To me, that's SMN's department.

OP, I agree with you. I am thrilled to have a spell that is self-target only.

How on earth are you having MP problems in this day in age?

[VraeliaRDM]

If you guys are doing something easy that doesn't take focus, anyone can do w/e they want.

I agree. If a group of people are doing something simple and easy, then heck...let everyone gang bang the mob to death.

And put this into consideration, what if the spell Temper can stack with already occasionally attacks twice or so weapons? That there could prove very handy in DPSing for the RDM to get some action in.

Also, if the RDM knows their job well, they know how best to do what is necessary in a simple fight. Regardless if easy or hard. The RDM has to know when exactly to enable Temper. Solo yes, Temper away. But if it would kill a 'simple' mob quicker, then let the RDM do its thing.

I have high hopes for Temper. :)

[SpankWustler]

Yes, RDMs have a shit load of things to buff everyone with (including self) but, I don't understand why SE doesn't give us some sort of MAX MP Trait. We have so much shit to cast, with so very little MP. (I'm talking about outside of Abyssea events, mind you). I would love to consider a RDM a buffer, if SE would give us more MP to cast more spells with. Or give us a Job Trait 'Cut spell MP Cost by half' or something along those lines.

I don't know how much MP all the other RDMs have but I have around 1k with mine. And it does in fact drain MP to cast every single buff spell for every single person. Any RDM would know this. It's a strain on us. Plus, I don't need to emphasize that we also Enfeeble and Heal. Even with Convert it's bad.

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you, a time traveler from 2005! This out-of-sorts soul comes from a time before Refresh II! A dark age when people would wring the blood from infants just to obtain 2 MP a tick Refresh from their equipment! Though it may be impossible for many of you to believe, this individual comes from a time before the race of man knew the irrelevance of maximum MP!

Try to contain your gasps of awe and shrieks of horror as you gaze upon this unnatural phenomenon!

On a slightly more serious note:

Pretty much any job can melee weaker monsters passably nowadays, excluding maybe Black Mage and Scholar. It's far from the most efficient thing to do, but weak monsters are weak so it doesn't matter all that much. I'm not sure if situations where you can literally do whatever and win should also be situations that define jobs, though.

[Tamoa]

To be quite frank: Yes, RDMs have a shit load of things to buff everyone with (including self) but, I don't understand why SE doesn't give us some sort of MAX MP Trait. We have so much shit to cast, with so very little MP. (I'm talking about outside of Abyssea events, mind you). I would love to consider a RDM a buffer, if SE would give us more MP to cast more spells with. Or give us a Job Trait 'Cut spell MP Cost by half' or something along those lines.

I don't know how much MP all the other RDMs have but I have around 1k with mine. And it does in fact drain MP to cast every single buff spell for every single person. Any RDM would know this. It's a strain on us. Plus, I don't need to emphasize that we also Enfeeble and Heal. Even with Convert it's bad. And adding more and more spells for RDMs to cast...yeah.....no comment.


Not sure if serious. :/

[Shiyo]

I can't run out of mp on rdm unless I'm healing people subbing war as a spongy job vs T-VT mobs outside abyssea or chain nuking like a psycho o_O

[Economizer]

Pretty much any job can melee weaker monsters passably nowadays, excluding maybe Black Mage and Scholar. It's far from the most efficient thing to do, but weak monsters are weak so it doesn't matter all that much. I'm not sure if situations where you can literally do whatever and win should also be situations that define jobs, though.

I've heard this from so many people, although usually in less eloquent and less refined ways.

People dismiss any situation that doesn't involve fighting the elder spawn of Cthulhu as "trash mobs" that don't matter. But we still have to fight these mobs for various reasons, such as farming loot, getting experience points, or even clearing out threats before a bigger fight. Does the gameplay we get from doing this evoke the image of jobs when literally fighting a giant enemy crab strapped to a mountain? No, but fighting these mobs is still a legitimate part of the game.

Also, at 75 there were still odd setups and builds where you could find non-traditional damage dealers not only dealing damage, but doing it more successfully then the majority of damage dealers. This was an enjoyable part of the game, and never hurt anyone. What's wrong with allowing people to break class molds on occasion?

I think that Temper will only add to interesting game play, and maybe hurt egos on people who want Red Mage to get back in the kitchen.

[Greatguardian]

Contrary to popular talking points, I doubt anyone's ego is fearful of being bruised by a buff to Red Mage melee. If melee'ing on Red Mage was actually beneficial and more efficient than not melee'ing at some point in the game, I'm sure myself and others would have no problem doing so (and it is, on anything EP or below, in which case myself and others do melee). The discussion has never really been about which way should be better, but rather what is most prudent to do in the given situation.

Melee'ing on anything above EM on Red Mage doesn't work as is, straight up. The only real difference here is that some people wish for the game to change to suit what they feel is the only correct vision for Red Mage as a class, while others are willing to mold themselves and their playstyles to function best within the game as it is. Instead of jamming a square peg into a round hole and demanding that the hole be changed to a square shape, some people just go grab a round peg instead.

Some people, like Saevel and Duelle, call that settling, making do, or other not as pleasant things. I call it being pragmatic. Final Fantasy XI presents you, the player, with a toolkit: The job system. It's up to the player to determine what tool(s) are best for any given job, and how they are best used. If, for some reason, the players insist on being able to whittle a deer with a power drill and circular saw because "that's just what power drills do" and they feel like it, there is only so much that can be done about it. Personally, I'd much rather whittle a deer with a pocket knife.

[DebbieGibson]

Contrary to popular talking points, I doubt anyone's ego is fearful of being bruised by a buff to Red Mage melee. If melee'ing on Red Mage was actually beneficial and more efficient than not melee'ing at some point in the game, I'm sure myself and others would have no problem doing so (and it is, on anything EP or below, in which case myself and others do melee). The discussion has never really been about which way should be better, but rather what is most prudent to do in the given situation.

Melee'ing on anything above EM on Red Mage doesn't work as is, straight up. The only real difference here is that some people wish for the game to change to suit what they feel is the only correct vision for Red Mage as a class, while others are willing to mold themselves and their playstyles to function best within the game as it is. Instead of jamming a square peg into a round hole and demanding that the hole be changed to a square shape, some people just go grab a round peg instead.

Some people, like Saevel and Duelle, call that settling, making do, or other not as pleasant things. I call it being pragmatic. Final Fantasy XI presents you, the player, with a toolkit. The job system. It's up to the player to determine what tool(s) are best for any given job, and how they are best used. If, for some reason, the players insist on being able to whittle a deer with a power drill and circular saw because "that's just what power drills do" and they feel like it, there is only so much that can be done about it. Personally, I'd much rather whittle a deer with a pocket knife.

Just wondering what is your IQ?

[Greatguardian]

Just wondering what is your IQ?

Serious question or trollface? :(

[DebbieGibson]

Serious question or trollface? :(

You make some of the best posts I have the pleasure of reading. Your two analogies in the above post are what prompted me to ask, as they give a very nice 'finishing blow' to what you're explaining. If you were a preacher I would probably go to your church.

[Supersun]

Really? I thought the round peg, square hole was a rather cliche metaphor.

I though everyone's heard that expression at least once.

[Romanova]

I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHO IS WHITTLING THESE DEERS SO I CAN REPORT THEM TO PETA














Yes I know you meant whittle a deer out of wood, but I totally read it as you stabbing a deer with a power tool lol

[DebbieGibson]

Really? I thought the round peg, square hole was a rather cliche metaphor.

I though everyone's heard that expression at least once.

I'm sure there's some people that haven't heard it one single time.

[SpankWustler]

People dismiss any situation that doesn't involve fighting the elder spawn of Cthulhu as "trash mobs" that don't matter. But we still have to fight these mobs for various reasons, such as farming loot, getting experience points, or even clearing out threats before a bigger fight. Does the gameplay we get from doing this evoke the image of jobs when literally fighting a giant enemy crab strapped to a mountain? No, but fighting these mobs is still a legitimate part of the game.

This is a good point. It doesn't make sense to dismiss certain types of content just because they're easy. I just think it's also true that the strengths, weaknesses, and straight-up differences that different jobs possess are more evident against more challenging content.

If Temper is actually potent then I certainly wouldn't complain about a Red Mage engaging normal monsters in Abyssea, bats and stuff in Einherjar, lower level monsters in Dynamis, and other things that are workable with one less back-line bro and one more bro hitting things with things. The capability to do this well might even add more depth to the job for people who felt like making a decent melee set.

Here's the thing that grates my gonad, though. Some of the people who desperately want Red Mage to hit things with things make weird arguments with unrealistic goals in mind. Suggestions like "No more buffs than can be cast on others! Down with all spells useful when fighting anything above Very Tough! Something something 'real Red Mages' something something!" run counter to Red Mage remaining an enjoyable job for the majority of people who play it.

A lot of my friends leveled Red Mage as their first job, and not just because it was so useful back in the day. They like the idea of using Black Magic and White Magic. They like having Dia II, Haste, and cures when with melee. They like having lesser nukes, Gravity, and Refresh when with mages. Sometimes, they even like having the option to melee weak monsters to death, which no other job with a decent selection of Black Magic can do. They like that these abilities make Red Mage great in almost any situation. They enjoy the job for what it is and what it does.

Temper as-is is not an inappropriate spell for Red Mage by any means, it's right in line with en-spells. It just confounds me that people who are jubilant not to have the option to cast Temper on others presume to speak for everyone who puts on a red pair of red pants. Plenty of people really like the job as-is.

[SpankWustler]

Some people, like Saevel and Duelle, call that settling, making do, or other not as pleasant things. I call it being pragmatic. Final Fantasy XI presents you, the player, with a toolkit: The job system. It's up to the player to determine what tool(s) are best for any given job, and how they are best used. If, for some reason, the players insist on being able to whittle a deer with a power drill and circular saw because "that's just what power drills do" and they feel like it, there is only so much that can be done about it. Personally, I'd much rather whittle a deer with a pocket knife.

The only thing wrong with this analogy is that whittling a deer using a power drill and a circular saw sounds like it would be amazing. Well, once I learned how to do it with the three remaining fingers on my one remaining hand.

Still, it would be worth it!

[Greatguardian]

Ha, that does sound fun really. I would not envy the person who had to clean up the inevitable mess though!

@DebbieGibson, I'm flattered, thank you :).

[Economizer]

Thank you.


Sometimes, they even like having the option to melee weak monsters to death, which no other job with a decent selection of Black Magic can do.

Hey! Dark Knights have Stun, Sleep, Absorb-TP! :p


Temper as-is is not an inappropriate spell for Red Mage by any means, it's right in line with en-spells. It just confounds me that people who are jubilant not to have the option to cast Temper on others presume to speak for everyone who puts on a red pair of red pants. Plenty of people really like the job as-is.

I have mixed feelings about this. First, not being able to cast it on others is a message on par with making the magian clubs White Mage only. Then, it sucks that Red Mages don't get another chance at buffing other jobs. But would it be AOE if they could? Probably not, considering that the only AOE Red Mage gets is "keep the mobs awake and kill the party-ga!" Still, on that note, if it isn't AOE, it will devolve to every party situation being an endless, soul-crushing cycle of buffs that make it so you can never put out decent melee numbers.

I prefer the currently planned implementation considering the risks of other implementations, but it would definitely serve both meleeing with a Red Mage and being a buffer/enfeebler if the spell was AOE, or had an AOE version Red Mage could use.

No offense to anyone with this next bit, I just like the name:

Temper Tantrum (RDM Lv. 95)
Grants the ability to occasionally attack twice to party members in Area of Effect.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Hey! Dark Knights have Stun, Sleep, Absorb-TP! :p

Black magic or Dark magic?! :)

[saevel]

You know, my recent foray into RDM/DRK has proven that it's quite effect for both melee and casting on big nasties. (Just bring echo's)

The original purpose was they needed things stunned and I'm an epic stunner. I had also just got my Almace and we decided to put the two together and see what happens. In the tank PT, keeping Refresh II on main healers, and refreshing the PLD's as need be. Super buffing myself, throwing out Spot Cure IV's on anyone in the party who wasn't a tank, and sometimes on the tanks if they suddenly hit red / deep-orange HP. Keeping Enspell II on and whacking away, CDCing whenever possible. It actually worked out pretty well, LR lasts 3 min now and is a +15% attack boost, SE is -8% HP but +5% damage on each hit, not as nice as DRK main but as a RDM I can ride it the full 60s without fear. The other "DRK" spells were so-so, having sh!t dark magic skill really hurts their effects, so probably not worth using but I did test them out a bit. Where their effective is if you have to sit on the sidelines with everyone as the Tank + THF build TH, the just spam Absorb spells, doesn't matter if they land all the time or not, You'll build plenty of TP that way along with reducing the mobs stats a little. When the kill order was given I'd let out a LRSE CDC, got some pretty nice numbers that way (1500~2000 usually).

Overall was impressed with the combo, not as offensive as /WAR and /NIN, but more utility and allows us to stun sh!t that needs stunning.

[cidbahamut]

All I heard was "I don't wanna /BLM, I wanna feed the mob TP". Out of curiosity what were you fighting?

[Romanova]

Might I ask if you actually parsed the results to see what your DoT was? I doubt it was anything close to the other melees if you were doing all the other things you were doing (refresh/selfbuffs/cures)

[saevel]

Nope stopped parsing once FFXI stopped being about "who does the most damage". At this point in the game, dealing damage is easy, surviving the NM is now the hard part. Hell most of the fight is a PLD and a THF or two on the NM with everyone off to the side. Once TH 9~10 is build the kill order is given and the NM dies 30~90 seconds later.

This idea of who can beat the hardest on a stone wall with an infinite amount of HP no longer works, heck it only worked for "merits" which has since become a non issue.

[Rayik]

Really? I thought the round peg, square hole was a rather cliche metaphor.

I though everyone's heard that expression at least once.

Honestly, I think that comparison is pretty far off. We're not trying to advocate SCH's swinging greataxes or something else completely out of left field, we're wanting the job to do what the job is advertised to do, and expand on it's capabilities as a whole.

It's a part of the job's "toolkit", like it or not, and if people like GreatGaurdian only play for mathematical perfection and doing what's he's told, then that's fine for him. If you enjoy mage-only, then great! Continue playing how you enjoy, nobody is taking it away from you. Some of us have a different style of play, that should be just as valid, seeing as how we're using "tools" from the same "toolkit."

SE gives us powerful weapons, decent armor, and a plethora of self-only melee buffs; we just want them to be worth a damn. Is that really asking so much?

As has been said a few hundred times in this thread, YES! MeleeRDM in the current form of FFXI is "suboptimal." Hence why we are striving for a fix to an existing facet of the job we enjoy playing. Temper is just one a many tools we have for melee. It just so happens most of our tools don't work. :\

[cidbahamut]

Honestly, I think that comparison is pretty far off. We're not trying to advocate SCH's swinging greataxes or something else completely out of left field, we're wanting the job to do what the job is advertised to do, and expand on it's capabilities as a whole.

Relevant: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Rune_Chopper
Clearly we need more Scholars wielding Great Axes.

[Rayik]

Relevant: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Rune_Chopper
Clearly we need more Scholar wielding Great Axes.

LOL wow, I didn't even realize that SCH was on that. Good find!

[Quetzacoatl]

Instead of jamming a square peg into a round hole and demanding that the hole be changed to a square shape, some people just go grab a round peg instead.

Or you can go bold by grabbing a jigsaw/router and shaving the square peg into a circle peg.

Just sayin'. 8D

[Rayik]

Or, for you magey-mage type RDM's out there, if you want to talk about "optimal" "efficient" and "prudent", why would a party worry about forcing a "hybrid peg" into a "specialist hole", when they can just get a "specialist peg." Okay, those metaphors are awful, but get the point across.

For as much as people talk down about meleeRDM's "sub optimal" nature, I find it hilariously ironic many of the same people don't see how "sub optimal" they are by just being RDM in the first place.

Let's say I'm some random player building a party to go take down some big bad NM that you happen to need dead too, for whatever reason(gear, atma, whatever). Why on earth am I going to pick a RDM over a WHM, BLM, or BLU? What makes mage-only play style so special, that any other actual specialist job can't just replace you with?


Instead of jamming a square peg into a round hole and demanding that the hole be changed to a square shape, some people just go grab a round peg instead.

Really, I think we were the round peg for a special round hole(that sounds so wrong), but over time, the wood has warped and doesn't fit anymore. We just want to restore what was there in the first place.

[Economizer]

Black magic or Dark magic?! :)

Well Sleep is actually Enfeebling Magic... uh...

Dark Knight can get Impact! That's elemental! It counts!

And technically it is all Black Magic! D:

[saevel]

Rayik,

About the only thing RDM currently offers groups is Refresh II and Dia III. Everything else can either be done better, or looks cool but is otherwise useless. CoolButInefficient (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CoolButInefficient)

And when I say useless I mean they will have absolutely zero effect on the outcome of any group battle. You can remove them entirely and the group will still have the same results. Anything that ~might~ of had an effect on the outcome SE will make the monster immune to or otherwise incapable of being harmed by it. Even look at what they did to Saboteur, double the power of Slow II or Dia III was monstrously powerful, so they nerfed it (a 42% boost to everyone's attack made lots of NM battles a joke).

In fact I think that defines the RDM concept in general CoolButInefficient (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CoolButInefficient).

[Romanova]

Nope stopped parsing once FFXI stopped being about "who does the most damage". At this point in the game, dealing damage is easy, surviving the NM is now the hard part. Hell most of the fight is a PLD and a THF or two on the NM with everyone off to the side. Once TH 9~10 is build the kill order is given and the NM dies 30~90 seconds later.

This idea of who can beat the hardest on a stone wall with an infinite amount of HP no longer works, heck it only worked for "merits" which has since become a non issue.

you were the one that came in here saying it was effective. Parsing shows if that is actually true. Or would you prefer we go back to 2005 where we still though melee sucked and blm were WTF awesome because they casted a spell once per fight but that spell did super damage?


Basically, you don't have to parse, you don't have to care about your "l33t" DD. But it's rather silly for you to come in and post that you did good damage without any proof to back it up.

[Rayik]

Rayik,

About the only thing RDM currently offers groups is Refresh II and Dia III. Everything else can either be done better, or looks cool but is otherwise useless. CoolButInefficient (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CoolButInefficient)

And when I say useless I mean they will have absolutely zero effect on the outcome of any group battle. You can remove them entirely and the group will still have the same results. Anything that ~might~ of had an effect on the outcome SE will make the monster immune to or otherwise incapable of being harmed by it. Even look at what they did to Saboteur, double the power of Slow II or Dia III was monstrously powerful, so they nerfed it (a 42% boost to everyone's attack made lots of NM battles a joke).

In fact I think that defines the RDM concept in general CoolButInefficient (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CoolButInefficient).

Exactly my point! I won't argue that our mage side is certainly viewed in higher regard than melee, and has a lot more uses, but if anyone is going to pull the "optimal" card, they are on the wrong forum altogether. Hybrids can't replace specialists, no not even mages.

[Economizer]

but if anyone is going to pull the "optimal" card

Red Mage is the best Haste caster (198% duration, with gear), the best Stunner (but they don't get the spell natively), and a competent Red Mage can make a fight much easier and safer (some of us value having no chance to wipe). Maybe a Red Mage won't make or break if you can do a fight, but I've seen fights go from Incredibly Tough to Easy Prey just by adding a Red Mage.

[Rayik]

Red Mage is the best Haste caster (198% duration, with gear), the best Stunner (but they don't get the spell natively), and a competent Red Mage can make a fight much easier and safer (some of us value having no chance to wipe). Maybe a Red Mage won't make or break if you can do a fight, but I've seen fights go from Incredibly Tough to Easy Prey just by adding a Red Mage.

Agreed, I'm not trying to downplay RDM's capabilities. I'm talking about pure "optimal", as in procs, healing, nuking, etc. I'm not hinting at things we can do well, just the "absolutes", since those get tossed around willy-nilly in these threads.

[Greatguardian]

Calling Red Mage a sub-optimal mage that brings nothing to groups only shows that you (plural) don't know a damn thing about the job and the potential it has in the right hands.

Red Mage is the single best support-class mage in the game, and does the job so damn well that it practically hogs the entire category to itself. Is it the best healer? No. Is it the best nuker? Well, not any more. Can it do a million things at once that bring a massive amount to the group without ever owning a sword? Damn straight. Ignoring its full utility just because your average full teal and/or joyeuse swinging retard wouldn't even be able to fathom its potential is fallacious at best and ignorant at worst.

[Rayik]

Calling Red Mage a sub-optimal mage that brings nothing to groups only shows that you (plural) don't know a damn thing about the job and the potential it has in the right hands.

Red Mage is the single best support-class mage in the game, and does the job so damn well that it practically hogs the entire category to itself. Is it the best healer? No. Is it the best nuker? Well, not any more. Can it do a million things at once that bring a massive amount to the group without ever owning a sword? Damn straight. Ignoring its full utility just because your average full teal and/or joyeuse swinging retard wouldn't even be able to fathom its potential is fallacious at best and ignorant at worst.

Whoa, whoa, simmer down now. So buffing is it then? That's what makes a RDM "optimal"? I don't have COR or BRD leveled, but I hear a lot of strong feedback that they are pretty serious buffers, not to mention what WHM can do, AoE wise. Refresh II is nice, but not necessary. Haste can be done by other jobs, even with just WHM as a subjob. I didn't say RDM brings nothing, I'm asking about what makes RDM so good that a specialist can't do it better?

Again, I'm not saying "RDM sucks", I'm just saying that we can't really argue how sub-optimal one facet of the job is, when the entire job itself is "sub-optimal." I'm not arguing that melee is as good as magic, because it's not. If it were, we wouldn't have 5 threads arguing the same things over and over.

IN my experience, "optimal" play does not want one job that can do multiple things well, it wants specialists that do it the best. That why you don't see a lot of DRK's get called on for red procs, even though they have a LOT of them, just a few less than WAR. Calling one side of the job sub-optimal is ignoring the other's shortcomings.

[Greatguardian]

That was more in response to Saevel than you, really. However I really do tire of hearing the "Red Mage just isn't a good mage" line all the time. It's ridiculous, as it's easily one of the most powerful and versatile jobs in the entire game.

A group of specialists is always better than a group of the same number of hybrids, however, as Duelle and others plainly point out (albeit unintentionally), Red Mage is not truly a hybrid. It is not a melee mage. It is simply a support mage, a different class of mage than White and Black. It's folly to compare what Red Mage can do to White Mages and Black Mages.

Red Mage has the unique ability to do everything at the same time. It has one of the most open and varied gear selections in the entire game. It has the single broadest always-available spell selection in the entire game.

A Red Mage will never be competing directly with a White Mage because Red Mages can do significantly more than just healing at any given time. Likewise, a Red Mage will never be competing directly with a Black Mage because Red Mages can do significantly more than just nuking at any given time. Likewise, you can't compare it with a Bard or a Corsair because it doesn't utilize non-magical buffs.

When I call Red Mage a Support Mage, I don't mean it's an enhancing mage. I mean it's a Party Support class. It fills gaps in existing support and fills a unique role in the party infrastructure. Red Mages aren't just backup healers or refreshers. Since Red Mage is so self-sufficient, they are capable of doing damn near anything the group needs them to do. Against weaker NMs and EM+ monsters, Red Mage is an ideal puller and crowd controller as well as a more than competent soloist. Against stronger NMs, Red Mage serves as a solid backup to the specialized mages while providing unique and powerful buffs to the group and, in some cases where not immune, enfeebling the opponent. I would much rather have a Red Mage and a White Mage against T4 Voidwatch than two White Mages unless the back to back Cure Vs were absolutely necessary.

[saevel]

you were the one that came in here saying it was effective. Parsing shows if that is actually true. Or would you prefer we go back to 2005 where we still though melee sucked and blm were WTF awesome because they casted a spell once per fight but that spell did super damage?


Basically, you don't have to parse, you don't have to care about your "l33t" DD. But it's rather silly for you to come in and post that you did good damage without any proof to back it up.

Except when the "fight" part of the fight is 30s, parsed data would mean absolutely nothing other then to determine Accuracy / Defense and such stats of the NM. Seriously, building TH takes longer on the NM then unleashing on it. So the argument of "deal optimal damage to make fight shorter" doesn't work. Next time I'm at event killer mass mobs I'll parse it, but on NM's it's just not worth it. Especially when the person with the highest "damage" will the PLD and THF's who are on it all the time.

[SpankWustler]

You make a valid point about the parsed data, if I'm right in thinking you're in a large group. One weapon skill and a dozen hits on each monster wouldn't make a very informative data set. I'd like to know which monsters your group is tanking with a Paladin that are squishy enough for a Red Mage to melee, though.

I don't get how anybody can think Red Mage isn't awesome in the back lines. The idea isn't to have unique spells no one else can can cast, it's to have access to a huge variety of spells all the time. Currently, some small groups prefer it over White Mage for Salvage, Limbus and similar content. Not because of Refresh II, but because those enemies are rarely a danger at 90 and stuff like Dia III and Blizzard IV really speed things up.

Red Mage wins out in these situations not by being a better healer, but by being more versatile through use of enfeebling and elemental magic. To me, that's the job finding it's niche perfectly.

[Supersun]

Red Mage wins out in Salvage because Phalanx II.

[Helel]

You "can" do without refresh II, you "can" do without 198% duration haste, you "can" do without any DD whatsoever and just have an aegis PLD swing at something for ages. You "can" do without a WHM if you choose to bring a battalion of cure IV. The list goes on. Just because you can do without something doesn't make it useless; in fact its utility isn't hindered in the slightest. This game, and any game really, is all about efficiency, and RDM will make your group more efficient. There is no other job with refresh II. That alone will make your mages more efficient. Dia 3 is essentially a +15% attack boost to all physical damage.

[Romanova]

Except when the "fight" part of the fight is 30s, parsed data would mean absolutely nothing other then to determine Accuracy / Defense and such stats of the NM. Seriously, building TH takes longer on the NM then unleashing on it. So the argument of "deal optimal damage to make fight shorter" doesn't work. Next time I'm at event killer mass mobs I'll parse it, but on NM's it's just not worth it. Especially when the person with the highest "damage" will the PLD and THF's who are on it all the time.

that's when you start creating controlled situations so you can parse to actually show some data. Basically, if you've got no data on how good it is, a lot of people just aren't going to believe you (or shouldn't).

[saevel]

that's when you start creating controlled situations so you can parse to actually show some data. Basically, if you've got no data on how good it is, a lot of people just aren't going to believe you (or shouldn't).

That is not what you asked, you asked for parsed data from the NM fights I did as RDM/DRK. I'm not stopping the shell to gather data, we don't have time to screw around, too much to do, to little time to do it in. I've tried to gather what I could but it was worthless, varied dramatically from fight to fight (the RDM and all the regular DDs) and the "best" DD's were the PLD's and THF's, every single time. This is one of those things that theory crafting works better then parsing.

Plus I wasn't there as RDM/DRK for melee DD, I was there because we needed things stunned. My assigned roles were Refresh II on PLD x 2 / WHM, Slow II on the NM's and Dia III to speed up the fights. Instead of standing in the back as RDM/BLM doing these things I came RDM/DRK in a melee setup to do these things. Got enough TP so that when the kill order is given I would run forward and LRSE CDC then whack away with everyone else, usually only long enough to get a single WS off before the monster exploded.

Also you realize you realize I'd be "competing" against other Emp wielders, and no matter how much I tweak my build I'll never hit what I could on BLU, much less what the WARs SAMs, DRKs and MNKs hit with their crazy gear.

[Romanova]

I've tried to gather what I could but it was worthless, varied dramatically from fight to fight

how?

You think I'm bashing you and I'm really not, but you come in trying to claim something is decent and when I ask for something more than just "hey I hit some nice WS" then you get all bent out of shape and can't give any answer to it.


I just simply can't believe that if you are curing/hasting/refreshing like you stated that rdm sub anything is going to be worth mentioning at all.

Basically I'm asking proof of your claims that you made it so it was "decent" because I simply don't believe it.

[Greatguardian]

If you have so much to do and so little time to do it, try not bringing so many people to the same NM that you have people sitting around on the sidelines sucking each other's lollipops half the time instead of being productive. Also 2 Paladins.

Edit: Can't even tell what content that's supposed to be on from any of your posts. Are we talking Voidwatch or Abyssea or what?

[SpankWustler]

Edit: Can't even tell what content that's supposed to be on from any of your posts. Are we talking Voidwatch or Abyssea or what?

I'm attempting to use my mystic powers of divination to determine what he's fighting, since he's not mentioning it. Give me a moment to connect with the spirit world.

The monster was described as a "big nasty". Stun was needed. Procs were needed. The main form of damage was apparently physical, with the monster possibly resisting magical damage. It was possibly annoying for a melee job to tank, but I'm less confident of this. The house of Aquarius is currently aligned with the space station. These chicken bones are telling me that I'm a fat loser who ate a dozen hot wings for dinner last night.

I assume he was fighting Apadamek with an outside chance of Orthus if in Abyssea. I don't have enough experience to make a guess about which VoidWatch NM it could be, but something in Abyssea seems more likely with the current information, particularly the time frame in which the monster died after being engaged.

Of course, there's always a chance he's about to say "We were fighting Sobek, the deadliest of all Bugards!" and I'll fall out of my chair laughing.

[Greatguardian]

Very possible. It's just the mention of Paladins and Stuns and whatnot had me thinking it might have been Voidwatch for a moment. The whole "LRSE CDC doing 1500-2000" thing hinted at a lack of Abyssea buffs too. At least, I sure hope so.

I can't imagine bringing that much firepower to bear on anything else. Yet at the same time I really can't quite imagine a Rdm/Drk managing to actually hit anything in Voidwatch either. What in the world is going on here?

[Romanova]

I'm attempting to use my mystic powers of divination to determine what he's fighting, since he's not mentioning it. Give me a moment to connect with the spirit world.

The monster was described as a "big nasty". Stun was needed. Procs were needed. The main form of damage was apparently physical, with the monster possibly resisting magical damage. It was possibly annoying for a melee job to tank, but I'm less confident of this. The house of Aquarius is currently aligned with the space station. These chicken bones are telling me that I'm a fat loser who ate a dozen hot wings for dinner last night.

I assume he was fighting Apadamek with an outside chance of Orthus if in Abyssea. I don't have enough experience to make a guess about which VoidWatch NM it could be, but something in Abyssea seems more likely with the current information.

Of course, there's always a chance he's about to say "We were fighting Sobek, the deadliest of all Bugards!" and I'll fall out of my chair laughing.

you forgot also that the mob died within 30 seconds so it was too fast to bother parsing.

[Supersun]

This game, and any game really, is all about efficiency, and RDM will make your group more efficient. There is no other job with refresh II. That alone will make your mages more efficient. Dia 3 is essentially a +15% attack boost to all physical damage.

So why aren't you inviting a Bard instead?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Because you can't have both since their buffs/debuffs conflict clearly.

[Feliciaa]

Seems like there was a translation error between the Jp and NA RDM manifesto. The JP manifesto says Rdm is great at self buff and enfeebling so temperance being the way it is makes a lot more sense.

Not that I agree with the current state of Rdm. Just pointing that translation out.

Also, this was done with Google translation so its just a really rough idea of what was being said. Lol

[Duelle]

Seems like there was a translation error between the Jp and NA RDM manifesto. The JP manifesto says Rdm is great at self buff and enfeebling so temperance being the way it is makes a lot more sense.You made me curious, so I decided to do a translation:

コンセプト
自己強化と単体強化に優れ、弱体魔法を誰よりも上手く使いこなすジョブ

Concept:
Capable of strengthening self and others to new levels of power (優れ, or sugure, is a conjugation of sugureru or "to excel"), with unsurpassed skill with enfeebling magic.

----

You're right. Temper does go in line with what the manifesto was going for...in Japanese. The rest of the manifesto is close enough, as it mentions the fact that enfeebles are of questionable use against NMs, and will make adjustments to help fix it. The guys that translated the RDM part to English overdid it.

[Shiyo]

Seems like there was a translation error between the Jp and NA RDM manifesto. The JP manifesto says Rdm is great at self buff and enfeebling so temperance being the way it is makes a lot more sense.

Not that I agree with the current state of Rdm. Just pointing that translation out.

Also, this was done with Google translation so its just a really rough idea of what was being said. Lol

Good to know I was right when I said "learn to translate properly" :/

Wow I wasn't serious at all and it was a translation error, hahahaha

Also great at enfeebling? Np - > WHM gets addle. ^_^;;

[Supersun]

Because you can't have both since their buffs/debuffs conflict clearly.

Sure you can have both

But why aren't you inviting another Brd and/or a Corsair instead?

I mean saying that "there is no other job with Refresh II' and Dia III is a 15% attack boost is slightly misleading

Refresh II doesn't stack with Refresh I automatically making any other form of MP regeneration superior and I'd be surprised if someone in the party doesn't already have Refresh I

Saying that Dia III is -15 Defense down isn't looking at the opportunity cost. Someone in your alliance (aka the White Mage) should already have Dia II and since they both can't stack all the Red mage is really bringing is an additional 4.65% defense down and a little extra MP for the White Mage.

Inviting Red Mage to take the spot of a Bard, Corsair, and possibly even a Summoner to JUST support is pretty hard to justify.

Yes, Red Mage brings the ability to do things other than just buff, but inviting them JUST for support over other more specialized support jobs is silly.

[Neisan_Quetz]

That's why we have more than pure support from our main job regardless of sub, otherwise we'd have buffs equal to them. Arguments over melee and melee side being even aside Rdm is a generalist job, the more specialists you bring the less Rdm is going to be viable at the moment, the less specialists you have/need the more viable having a Rdm is. I don't really have a problem with that - only if our enfeebling spells become more viable instead of having a history of being either resisted, or SE creating NMs where they don't matter.

[SpankWustler]

I always wondered about that "demi-gods" bit in the English version. It makes a lot of sense that the other languages used something less zealous.


That's why we have more than pure support from our main job regardless of sub, otherwise we'd have buffs equal to them. Arguments over melee and melee side being even aside Rdm is a generalist job, the more specialists you bring the less Rdm is going to be viable at the moment, the less specialists you have/need the more viable having a Rdm is. I don't really have a problem with that - only if our enfeebling spells become more viable instead of having a history of being either resisted, or SE creating NMs where they don't matter.

Pretty much this. If somebody wants to compare a job with buffs to Bard and watch it fall flat on it's face, Corsair is the go-to option rather than Red Mage. Red Mage is unique in that it fills the support role by filling whatever mage/support position is open.

I think there will be far less complaining if the planned changes to enfeebling and resistances are good, and an incomprehensible tidal wave of complaining if those changes come to pass and are disappointing.

[Duelle]

I always wondered about that "demi-gods" bit in the English version. It makes a lot of sense that the other languages used something less zealous.Notice that the JP version included self-buffing, whereas the English version emphasized buffing others. That's really where the misunderstanding came from.

[Supersun]

Can anyone read any of the other languages. I'm wondering how they translated to other languages it as well, but I don't trust babelfish or something other thing like that.

[SpankWustler]

Notice that the JP version included self-buffing, whereas the English version emphasized buffing others. That's really where the misunderstanding came from.

Hey, any guy who doesn't consider himself to be his own ally has some pretty rough self-esteem issues!

[saevel]

Notice that the JP version included self-buffing, whereas the English version emphasized buffing others. That's really where the misunderstanding came from.

Shh don't disturb that hating, can't you see their having fun frothing at the mouth.
Yes the JP site mentions RDM turning themselves into demi-gods and debuffing the mobs, which is something we do. Others would rather we be pink-mages and buff them, but that is something their going to have to learn to live with.

[SpankWustler]

Shh don't disturb that hating, can't you see their having fun frothing at the mouth.
Yes the JP site mentions RDM turning themselves into demi-gods and debuffing the mobs, which is something we do. Others would rather we be pink-mages and buff them, but that is something their going to have to learn to live with.

I usually just post lame jokes, lamer puns, or stuff about game mechanics; but I feel the need to say this.

Please don't imply that I have the same level of emotional involvement with video game characters in red trousers that some folks may, given the emphatic yet bitter and unhappy tone of some posts I've read here. I'm not sure why, but the idea of being like that is very unsettling to me.

Maybe I'm missing a joke somewhere or misunderstanding the tones sometimes adopted, in which case I apologize.

[noodles355]

I can't stand people who support the self-target aspect of temper with the argument "I dont want to cycle another buff around 4-5 people" for the simple fact that you should have never done that in the first place, and even if temper was able to be casted on other party members, as many have mentioned you would never replace the whm, cor or brd of a melee party at an event. Temper being able to be cast on others would have benefitted two situations:
1) Lowman such as Rdm + DD/Tank or similar
2) Tank parties on harder NMs.

It'd be one more buff to keep up on one or two more people, max.

[Supersun]

Yeah...maybe if Temper is only going to be 1% OaT...

But assuming this spell ISN'T going to be something stupidly low then this spell would have most likely nailed us as the second best buffer right behind bard if it was castable on other people.

I mean Red Mages and Bards would virtually be joined at the hip and we'd be back in a TouA type situation where you wouldn't leave your mog house without having both of those jobs first.

[SpankWustler]

I mean Red Mages and Bards would virtually be joined at the hip and we'd be back in a TouA type situation where you wouldn't leave your mog house without having both of those jobs first.

It's hard to guess, since this is just hypothetical, but I don't see that kind of situation happening again. Large portions of the game have gotten much easier, groups have gotten much smaller, and VoidWatch is so hard that melee might not be engaged for the whole duration or even the main source of damage.

Back in the way-way-before when I played with a lot of people, we'd use full-on "melee damage support" for stuff like Einherjar and sometimes Dynamis. Things like Limbus or Salvage with an alliance split into groups or just one party, not so much.

As for merit parties on pink birds, I really don't understand how anybody on any job could have fond memories of that experience. Melee couldn't use decent food, piercing weapons were the best option for almost any job, and all mages were limited to maybe a third of their spells. I'd say those merit parties were pretty dull for everybody involved, melee included, even though it was faster experience than most things previous.

I'm not really sure what my point is, so I'll just say this. I don't think anyone should be terrified of getting new single target buffs because some stuff in the old days was dull for him or her.

Even in Abyssea which is just punching faces forever, I would not complain about a more slack buff cycle when the group is just farming pop items or something.

[saevel]

Yeah...maybe if Temper is only going to be 1% OaT...

But assuming this spell ISN'T going to be something stupidly low then this spell would have most likely nailed us as the second best buffer right behind bard if it was castable on other people.

I mean Red Mages and Bards would virtually be joined at the hip and we'd be back in a TouA type situation where you wouldn't leave your mog house without having both of those jobs first.

Yep if Temper was even semi-decent it would of been 2007 BRD + RDM in every party all over again. We know that, the detractors know that, in fact they want that, yet somehow we go about this dance where we pretend there isn't ulterior motives to their posts.

[Kaisha]

What would have been interesting is if Temper was castable on others, but overwrote Haste (and vice-versa).

Would be a case where you'd have to balance set delay reduction w/ recast times (if you rely on Utsusemi for instance) vs. chances of additional hits, assuming Temper was potent enough to be noticeable.

Food for thought. More options is always nice.

[Neisan_Quetz]

What would have been interesting is if Temper was castable on others, but overwrote Haste (and vice-versa).

Would be a case where you'd have to balance set delay reduction w/ recast times (if you rely on Utsusemi for instance) vs. chances of additional hits, assuming Temper was potent enough to be noticeable.

Food for thought. More options is always nice.



... Not sure if serious...

[noodles355]

Yeah...maybe if Temper is only going to be 1% OaT...Yeah, no. Even if it was around 20% Cor would still be better. Mainly due to the fact they have anywhere from 10-24% DA as well as a 2nd and often 3rd roll.

[SpankWustler]

Yep if Temper was even semi-decent it would of been 2007 BRD + RDM in every party all over again. We know that, the detractors know that, in fact they want that, yet somehow we go about this dance where we pretend there isn't ulterior motives to their posts.

Corsair can provide round-a-bouts 15% Double Attack and they're rarely in any party, much less every party. Groups getting smaller at the same time that stuff is getting easier generally doesn't lead to more people being shoe-horned in just to provide buffs.

Also, I'm not sure where you guys get the idea that further not-Haste buffs from a Red Mage would make a Bard's marches any better.

[Seriha]

What bothers me is the assumption that pretty much anyone only plays RDM in extreme low-man situations. As is, I'm still in my old linkshell from back in the day where we could've had 20+ people show up for Einherjar, Dynamis, and so on. While such numbers certainly aren't needed, there are times we still enter Abyssea for a specific purpose with a full alliance (usually the sub-groups rotating amongst KI NMs then reuniting at the final mob) with the sole purpose of helping a specific person or three. As is, while some have complained the new content of today isn't hard, it shouldn't be, either, especially with 9 levels ahead of us. And on some level, I see SE taking an anti-lowman approach to some mobs with mobs who do split damage moves (?? Needles, Discoid, etc.), possibly summon multiple adds you just can't kite around indefinitely, and so on. Were Temper party-capable, the only way to really avoid the cycling fate would be to put yourself in the nuking party, but even then you'd likely be cycling Refresh and perhaps Haste to help Stun timers if a rotation is needed. Of course, most leaders probably wouldn't put you there unless you had two other RDMs to cover the other groups. At that point, we basically reintroduce issues of redundancy between ourselves and even WHM. Someone, somewhere will cut corners thinking RDM "good enough" to get the job done, and if true and word spreads, hello expectations. Forget about it if Cure V does indeed enter the picture like some hope.

Either way, what happens at 99 is still a mystery. We can look around and possibly see some foundations being built like with Voidwatch and various Trials, then make educated guesses based on other past content. Far as Temper is concerned, if someone doesn't beat me to it on the test server, it's going to be my first priority to gauge its potency, relationship with DA/WS, and other factors. I want it to be good and not let it get away with being bad if SE did indeed drop the ball toward RDM again.

[SpankWustler]

Far as Temper is concerned, if someone doesn't beat me to it on the test server, it's going to be my first priority to gauge its potency, relationship with DA/WS, and other factors.

Given the "improvement" between Tier I and Tier II En-Spells, this sounds like the right frame of mind to take towards the spell. I'm not sure the potency will be what you're hoping for, but hopefully they'll re-think Temper if it is similar to the Rube-Goldberg's-dabbling-in-Dadaism Tier II En-Spells.

Useless or broken spells aren't good for anybody.

[Seriha]

Pain not having windowed mode on the Test Server...

Anyway, preliminary findings on Temper: Costs 36 MP, is called Multi-Strikes in the buff window, and lasts 3 minutes by default, which can be extended by Composure and such. It stacks with Enspells just fine. I went to Grauberg(A) to whack on some crabs with regen atmas and I feel like the DA rate is somewhere between 5 and 10 percent. Took about 60 hits to kill a crab, and basically had to manually count DAs as they happened, averaging around 5 per fight. I was using Flat Blade for a few of my later crabs to see if the DA would trigger on WS and I think it did, but I also may've been hit at the same time. Sub used at the time was /NIN single-wielding one of my Shamshirs with no DA gear on. Tried a few with my DA Khanda, Atheling, and Brutal and while I naturally swung more, I couldn't tell you if Temper was a factor.

Personally was hoping more for 10-15%, but maybe if we can get some more testimonials floating around we can find out I was either having bad luck or it's more in the 5-10% range.

[SpankWustler]

I'm not sure the common parser works on the test server, either, so good luck with your testing. Testing attack rate with just your eyeballs is a pain, since it's just RECORD DATA UNTIL YOU WANT TO NOT LIVE THEN RECORD MORE.

Maybe you could farm up a 999 delay sword or dagger and just watch your character whack a fortilace while you focus on tallying stuff? That doesn't sound fun at all, in fact much the opposite, but it's the best way I can think to get a very accurate idea of the spell's effect.

[Seriha]

Maybe when I'm less tired I can sit here with a piece of paper and just mark lines while whacking on a fort, but yeah... brain mush.

[Economizer]

Personally was hoping more for 10-15%, but maybe if we can get some more testimonials floating around we can find out I was either having bad luck or it's more in the 5-10% range.

Aside from doubting initial measurements, and the possibility it could be changed, it could be affected by Enhancing Magic skill.

Still, if it is a 10% rate for example (which seems like something they might choose), with the double attack weapon (10%, possibly more with level increase), /WAR (10%), Brutal Earring (5%), Atheling Mantle (3%), ASA Body (2%) and buffs from SMN (~12%) and COR (~24%), you could get about ~30% all the time, and with a party setup, around 66%.

[Atoreis]

Aside from doubting initial measurements, and the possibility it could be changed, it could be affected by Enhancing Magic skill.

Still, if it is a 10% rate for example (which seems like something they might choose), with the double attack weapon (10%, possibly more with level increase), /WAR (10%), Brutal Earring (5%), Atheling Mantle (3%), ASA Body (2%) and buffs from SMN (~12%) and COR (~24%), you could get about ~30% all the time, and with a party setup, around 66%.

Rofl. Unless that would be your mules none will put RDM to a pt with COR SMN and put DA buffs on him and let him melee lol. Suddenly from solo melee toy you want to make it a base for melee RDM in ally? lol at /war in party too ...

[saevel]

[Comment deleted by Moderator]

The test server just copies your character data over? If so I might be able to throw together some tests at high enhancing magic. I'm praying it's on-cast potency and not on-hit, that would suck.

[Supersun]

There might be an quicker way to test Temper's potency though I doubt anyone has the gear and the assistance required to do it.

Instead of auto attacking for hours and hours while parsing the results of the spell to try and find the level of double attack it has you could instead try the opposite instead and work from 100% double attack down.

With atmas, a Corsair, a Summoner, a Warrior, /War, DA gear, and DA weapons any job has the potential to break 100% double attack. From there you can work your way backwards slowly removing any double attack gear until you reach the point where you no longer double attack with a 100% rate.

Much more tedious and demanding, but unless double attack has some cap that I don't know about you should be able to find the exact DA value the spell gives with this.

From there you can then also test if enhancing magic increases the potency of the spell. From the 99% DA point that you find just equip your full enhancing set to cast the spell and see if you are still at a 99% DA rate.

Not gonna lie though, I'll be impressed if anyone pulls that off.

[saevel]

There is a much easier and simpler method to go about this simple test.

Absolutely no DA gear or buffs at all, Onion or other low single digit sword or club + shield. No bonus enhancing magic gear, just cap at whatever level your at in the test server. Cast Temper, beat on craps in the past until you have 300 attack rounds worth of data, very important that you track attack rounds. Total Hits / Attack Rounds = Base Temper value. Repeat with maxed enhancing gear, that should give you a clue if it scales or not and to what degree.

[Supersun]

I really doubt that 300 rounds would give you a big enough sample to be able to determine if enhancing gear increases the DA potency given that if it does change at all it'll only be by a couple percent.

I mean I'm no statistician, but wouldn't an extra 1-2% still fall within the margin of error for only 300 rounds?

[noodles355]

What bothers me is the assumption that pretty much anyone only plays RDM in extreme low-man situations. As is, I'm still in my old linkshell from back in the day where we could've had 20+ people show up for Einherjar, Dynamis, and so on. While such numbers certainly aren't needed, there are times we still enter Abyssea for a specific purpose with a full alliance (usually the sub-groups rotating amongst KI NMs then reuniting at the final mob) with the sole purpose of helping a specific person or three. As is, while some have complained the new content of today isn't hard, it shouldn't be, either, especially with 9 levels ahead of us. And on some level, I see SE taking an anti-lowman approach to some mobs with mobs who do split damage moves (?? Needles, Discoid, etc.), possibly summon multiple adds you just can't kite around indefinitely, and so on. Were Temper party-capable, the only way to really avoid the cycling fate would be to put yourself in the nuking party, but even then you'd likely be cycling Refresh and perhaps Haste to help Stun timers if a rotation is needed. Of course, most leaders probably wouldn't put you there unless you had two other RDMs to cover the other groups.You still wouldn't replace a cor or brd in the DD party. There is no space for Rdm in an alliance DD party. You keep ignoring the fact that Temper would have to be an obscenely high % of OAT to be worthwhile enough to out-buff a Cor (who can give you 10-20% DA ontop of 2-5 regain and/or 20-40% Attack) or a Brd (Marches, 'nuff said.).

Everyone needs to stop saying it's a good thing it doesn't target others because it means you would have to cycle it around 4 people because that will never happen. You will not replace the whm, brd or cor in an event DD party. Where do you most often find yourself on Rdm in the alliance? In the tank party or in the Add/misc party. Temper being able to target other people would benefit the tanks in an alliance and the 1-2 melees in a low man situation. That's it. Once again: You would never be cycling it around 4 DDs in your party because as a buffer Cor and Brd would still be better.

[SpankWustler]

I really doubt that 300 rounds would give you a big enough sample to be able to determine if enhancing gear increases the DA potency given that if it does change at all it'll only be by a couple percent.

I mean I'm no statistician, but wouldn't an extra 1-2% still fall within the margin of error for only 300 rounds?

300 is a pretty okay sample size (though still a long way from ideal) for determining a "base" rate, but not really how skill or anything else affects the spell. If the rate is low as Seriha has noticed thus far then the effect of more skill would probably be in increments of 1% and that will be fun with a capital EFFFFF for some poor soul to figure out.

It's nothing that couldn't be learned by leaving one's computer on over a few nights after teaching one's cat how to cast Temper every so many minutes, but letting one's cat play on the test server in any fashion does not seem wise.

I'm not sure if going down from 100% Double Attack would work too well until a base rate is determined, since you'd have to wait to NOT double attack to know the amount had gone down and it's not possible to remove Double Attack 1% at a time. However, it would be an easier way to test what, if anything, affects the spell.

Edit: Unless my morning-time-math is off, you would need to hit something well over 5000 times to narrow down the effect within a percentage point, and thus determine how enhancing magic or anything else would effect it. I can not imagine any living soul performing such a task by hand and retaining his or her will to exist.

[Insaniac]

The test server auto caps your enhancing skill. I did a test with around 500 swings and got almost exactly 5%.

[SpankWustler]

I did a test with around 500 swings and got almost exactly 5%.

Some people say that Red Mage is meant to enhance others. Some people say that Red Mage is meant to enhance itself.

The Development Team has corrected the whole lot of us. Red Mage is meant to enhance no one.

[Lollerblades]

I'm sure more stuff will be added to try and balance everything out, patience is a virtue :)

[Luces]

The main problem is we still give to much tp for our damage, all temper really does is boost our ws damage/frequency, which it also does to the mob. We are constricted by the gear we have to wear for haste that gives very little addition to our small DD power. All the other jobs with B's in there main weapon have pets, and leaves almost no room for subtle blow/agi. If we want to maximize our damage per hit even then we are considerably weaker then many jobs, who can also use sword by, our gear selections and natural sword skill. All in all we are weakened mainly by our natural B Sword combat skill level with access to very little other sword +, blue having 19 more sword skill naturally, and access to 11 more sword skill, by armor, that they use and additional 5 more if they want(16 total) in gear and already have an A- in the skill. Blu and sch, can both self skillchain now, smn, blue and sch can all do AOE buffs, sch and smn actually are able to cycle while blue has once every 10 min by merit but it's there at least. If we get lucky and SE does make it 10% like the war JT and if it will stack with enspells, then it's a great solo spell but unless your an Almace wielder who's gone through heck and back for the best armor for rdm(that's quite crappy in actuality),or if your are solo/duo/trio, otherwise you will most likely have to stand back line. Though SE this is not 2004 anymore and rdm can't fight and hold a mob for 11 hours, because you made them rage, so fear of making a rdm overpowered like that should no longer exist. Party wise unless your doing VWNM any mage or ninja will cap slow, and para t1 all at the same lvl as rdm easily(30%), rdm can cap slow and para 2 at 50%, 20% more then the t1, but if your doing this on nm's you will need at least a mind atma and +2 body so if you meeleing most likely your aren't capping your debuffs(so not much of big change over not having a rdm) or you aren't maximizing your damage(build tp to slow, don't hit enough, don't do enough damage for you to hit the mob, ect...), nor your actual usefulness. Also to get blind II equal to a ninjas mid level blind: ni; a rdm must have Blind II(base -15; capped -30) merited at least once, and then be able to cap it to equal a ninja's Kurayami: ni,(which is a flat -30). outside abyssea rdm shines with slow/para- II. I have my Almace I'm very happy about this spell, my friends who don't couldn't really care because they aren't feeding any less tp, the new sword however is a huge improvement to RDM dd and will be a must for any rdm so that you can actually wear some DD gear and get some subtle blow(from the agi).

*Edit* also the text on temper says- grants the ability to OA2. not double attack. so doing a 100%DA test should not work as OA2 is separate from that also using any double or triple atk gear/atmas could throw off your results because if i'm not mistaken(which I could be it's been a while) OA2 can also proc on the same round as a DA or TA or was that just the jailers weapons? this is the main reason I considered it being extremely useful for almace because then a double atk and oa2 could proc on a CDC and make for some lovely numbers.

[Duelle]

I'm sure more stuff will be added to try and balance everything out, patience is a virtue :)To me this translates as "Enhances Temper" gear, which we don't want given current inventory woes.

The better question to make would be if we should take the spell description at face value or whether they were trying to be fancy about it again since they didn't want to say "Grants the Double Attack trait" in the description. Please post feedback on the spell itself to get some answers, as well. Hopefully Camate or the other CMs can get the devs to respond to this one, because if Temper is bugged or just lacking in design, now is the time to fix it.

[saevel]

I'd be wary of "gear" enhances, it worked out really well for Berserk, Warcry, Defender and various other duration JA's out there. Just imagine a set of gloves that read,
DEX +5
INT +5
"Enhances Temper" +5

The effect would make Temper 10%, at the expense of losing 4% haste.

We don't want this.