View Full Version : Temper Fail and...Enhancing Magic? What's that?
Quetzacoatl
08-24-2011, 04:52 AM
The moment it was announced that it was going to be self-targetable only, we have this present.
1.) Refresh isn't needed for Abyssea thanks to Atma of the Minikin Monstrosity.
2.) WHMs can Haste, use AoE versions of Barspells and Protectra/Shell.
3.) Temper can't be used on party members.
4.) What's the point of using Phalanx 2 when no one wants a RDM?
5.) Accession Phalanx/Stoneskin/Etc. is pointless as well when that's not really needed either and is more or less superfluous.
Vision
Support specialists who excel at transforming their allies from mere mortals into demigods with their enhancements, while rendering once-formidable enemies impotent with enfeebling magic.
Square, we want you to talk to us about what this means, because we're not seeing the part about being Enhancing Magic specialists yet.
cidbahamut
08-24-2011, 05:02 AM
In fact, we're seeing design choices that contradict it outright. Want to clue us in as to why our job manifesto and the design team haven't been speaking to one another?
Supersun
08-24-2011, 05:22 AM
They did say that those manifestos weren't necessarily a finalized vision of where jobs are headed.
I'd totally back them if the decided to drop the enhancing bit as it's completely silly to suggest that 2 non self targeting spells let us turn allies into demi-gods when there are 5 other jobs that already buff better then us INCLUDING White Mage.
In return though, if SE should spend the freed up design resources and actually committed to Enfeebling being Red Mages thing in HNM type settings. Make it so enfeebles can actually land and actually influence the fight to any relevant degree besides just making shadows easier to recast.
Daniel_Hatcher
08-24-2011, 05:51 AM
They did say that those manifestos weren't necessarily a finalized vision of where jobs are headed.
I'd totally back them if the decided to drop the enhancing bit as it's completely silly to suggest that 2 non self targeting spells let us turn allies into demi-gods when there are 5 other jobs that already buff better then us INCLUDING White Mage.
In return though, if SE should spend the freed up design resources and actually committed to Enfeebling being Red Mages thing in HNM type settings. Make it so enfeebles can actually land and actually influence the fight to any relevant degree besides just making shadows easier to recast.
I'm sure they said the abilities were not. I don't think they ever said what they saw them as wasn't the final version.
To mess up their Manifesto the very next major update after posting it is a complete joke.
Supersun
08-24-2011, 06:21 AM
Like I've stated before. I'll believe the manifesto as soon as I see it actually happen in the game. I'm not sure why people were putting that much faith in the manifesto in the first place. When has SE ever warranted THAT much trust? I mean I really doubt that SE is planning that far ahead in respects to job balance.
Stylin
08-24-2011, 06:57 AM
Like I've stated before. I'll believe the manifesto as soon as I see it actually happen in the game. I'm not sure why people were putting that much faith in the manifesto in the first place. When has SE ever warranted THAT much trust? I mean I really doubt that SE is planning that far ahead in respects to job balance.
I wish I could like this three times, everybody is blowing this whole thing WAY out of proportion.
Temper should have been a sphere effect. That would give red mages a reason to be on the front line with the melee. Once they're up there they might as well pull out a sword. Obviously red mage melee can never be buffed enough to make it a worthwhile DD or dedicated DD jobs would rightfully call foul, so if SE is serious about RDM becoming situationally useful as a frontliner they need go give a different reason for them to be there. Sphere could have been it.
Shiyo
08-24-2011, 08:33 AM
In fact, we're seeing design choices that contradict it outright. Want to clue us in as to why our job manifesto and the design team haven't been speaking to one another?
Yeah..
OP also forgot to mention Gain spells are self only and unaccessionable while WHM ones are default AOE, and that WHM is getting addle, our newest enfeeble. So much for "rendering once-formidable enemies impotent with enfeebling magic. "
I also have no problem with RDM being an "aura"(or sphere w/e) buffer that just hits the mob to stay in range to give melee's an aoe buff, or just afks in melee range. That's dancers role though imo :X Too bad dancer is getting DD buffs instead of buffs to make it a more useful support job but that's another discussion entirely : D
DebbieGibson
08-24-2011, 09:03 AM
abyssea is over so rdm will shortly be needed again
Quetzacoatl
08-24-2011, 12:34 PM
abyssea is over so rdm will shortly be needed again
It's only over until the fat lady sings.
TRiPP
08-25-2011, 05:14 AM
I don't know, I think we should boycott the player base, after Abyssea. If it does come to a conclusion.
geekgirl101
09-16-2011, 04:17 PM
Refresh isn't needed for Abyssea thanks to Atma of the Minikin Monstrosity.
In some big fights I've had to refresh people, especially mages who nuke their mana away like crazy.
WHMs can Haste, use AoE versions of Barspells and Protectra/Shell.
RDMs can cast Haste faster and their enhancing magic is more superior to WHM's enhancing magic. With RDM/WHM you can cast WHM barspells that are as potent as the RDM version.
What's the point of using Phalanx 2 when no one wants a RDM?
Some tough boss situations my ls was happy to have me as RDM primarily to phalanx the tanks and to aid with proccing spells.
Shiyo
09-16-2011, 05:45 PM
-37 damage is the difference between life and death when NM's are hitting for 400+ damage and WSing for 1k+.
Daniel_Hatcher
09-16-2011, 07:40 PM
In some big fights I've had to refresh people, especially mages who nuke their mana away like crazy.
RDMs can cast Haste faster and their enhancing magic is more superior to WHM's enhancing magic. With RDM/WHM you can cast WHM barspells that are as potent as the RDM version.
Some tough boss situations my ls was happy to have me as RDM primarily to phalanx the tanks and to aid with proccing spells.
Any good WHM /SCH so they're equal.
Swords
09-17-2011, 02:59 AM
RDMs can cast Haste faster and their enhancing magic is more superior to WHM's enhancing magic. With RDM/WHM you can cast WHM barspells that are as potent as the RDM version.
Haste is a flat rate however and is not affected by enhancing skill, so unless the WHM, SCH, whatever is too busy cure bombing DD's who don't understand hate control it becomes rather moot.
saevel
09-17-2011, 10:19 AM
In some big fights I've had to refresh people, especially mages who nuke their mana away like crazy.
RDMs can cast Haste faster and their enhancing magic is more superior to WHM's enhancing magic. With RDM/WHM you can cast WHM barspells that are as potent as the RDM version.
Some tough boss situations my ls was happy to have me as RDM primarily to phalanx the tanks and to aid with proccing spells.
While I like your attitude, Phalanx II has become fail lately. PLD's get their own Phalanx 1, and with how they both scale differently, my 3/5 Phalanx II (full gear swaps) was 1 point weaker then a 90 PLD's capped Phalanx 1 (no gear swaps). At 91+ this will grow worse. Its because of this that I unmerited Phalanx II and put them into Dia III instead, the one spell I found that I used consistently and was never resisted or otherwise mitigated.
All our merited spells should be on scrolls with the merits being +enhances for them. We should get merits that enhanced Dia / Slow / Paralyze / Phalanx / Blind and such.
Neisan_Quetz
09-17-2011, 10:24 AM
5/5 Phalanx 2 is no weaker than Phalanx 1 assuming same skill, which Pld won't have versus Rdm. 3/5 wasn't very good at 75, and by your own admission, that hasn't changed.
saevel
09-17-2011, 10:56 AM
3/5 for the duration, and 5/5 will get weaker as levels go up. At 75 3/5 was better then a Phalanx cast from PLD's native skill, now it's not. There most definitely is a difference between the two at 5/5
Phalanx 1
((Enhancing magic skill - 300) / 29) + 28
Phalanx II
((Enhancing Skill/25) + (3 * Merit) +1)
Each increase in merits increase's the effect by 3, so going fro 3/5 to 5/5 only adds 6 more base, making it 4~5 or so stronger then PLD's. And this was me with 420+ skill vs a PLD who cast in capped skill but no gear swaps. Basically it's not worth wasting 3 tier II merits in, 5 would be downright crazy seeing as you have to give up on something else and can get the EXACT same effect (@90) by going /SCH.
Now if SE would change it to a scroll and give is "enhances phalanx effect", merits, then I might be interested.
Neisan_Quetz
09-17-2011, 11:06 AM
How is it getting weaker? Using those formulas 5/5 phalanx 2 comes out to exactly the same as phalanx 1 with same skill, so either I'm missing something, or the formulas aren't quite correct.
EDIT: Figured the issue, Pld has 280 base skill at 90 with no swaps, so they're using the below 300 skill formula while Rdm is using the above 300 skill formula. So it's actually going to improve less for Pld with the level increase (adding 40 skill is +2 damage mitigation for Pld).
Didn't you already state you're not always going /sch yourself? The only sacrifice I consider worth noting is 1 merit in paralyze 2, which is negligible at best.
Phalanx 2 was never worth it below 4 merits imo.
saevel
09-17-2011, 11:20 AM
How is it getting weaker? Using those formulas 5/5 phalanx 2 comes out to exactly the same as phalanx 1 with same skill, so either I'm missing something, or the formulas aren't quite correct.
EDIT: Figured the issue, Pld has 280 base skill at 90 with no swaps, so they're using the below 300 skill formula while Rdm is using the above 300 skill formula. So it's actually going to improve less for Pld with the level increase (adding 40 skill is +2 damage mitigation for Pld).
Didn't you already state you're not always going /sch yourself? The only sacrifice I consider worth noting is 1 merit in phalanx 2, which is negligible at best.
Phalanx 2 was never worth it below 4 merits imo.
Also PLD's do get some +enhancing skill gear, so factor that in.
The point was that I would have to go 5/5 to match or barely beat what they get naturally, the improvement isn't worth losing out on Slow II / Dia III. And my two most used subs are /DRK and /SCH, /DRK for whenever a set of moves needs stunned and /SCH for when they don't. Considering I can get the exact potency of 5/5 Phalanx II by going Accession Phalanx 1, what little worth those 5/5 had was just lost. Now if SE made it so that Phalanx II at level 1 had the same potency / duration as regular Phalanx and only got stronger, then I'd be more interested.
Neisan_Quetz
09-17-2011, 11:28 AM
For 90 Cap -
280 base +16 merits + 28 in gear - 324 enhancing skill on Pld, 28 damage mitigation
Rdm - 341 + 0 merits + 79 in gear - 420 skill, 5/5 merits is 32 damage mitigation.
Rdm Phalanx 2 at 5/5 is ~12% better than Paladin unless I got my numbers mixed up.
saevel
09-17-2011, 11:32 AM
For 90 Cap -
280 base +16 merits + 28 in gear - 324 enhancing skill on Pld, 28 damage mitigation
Rdm - 341 + 0 merits + 79 in gear - 420 skill, 5/5 merits is 32 damage mitigation.
Rdm Phalanx 2 at 5/5 is ~12% better than Paladin unless I got my numbers mixed up.
You did, its FOUR damage difference. As in look at my previous post about it being at best 4~5 higher.
Your using half of your Tier II merits for ... FOUR points less damage, that is less then insignificant.
Neisan_Quetz
09-17-2011, 11:37 AM
Yup, my number was wrong, it's 13% better, which would make Phalanx 2 merits better than Slow 2 and Para 2 merits above 1.
EDIT: In terms of percentage increase over Pld's, compared to 1 it's better all the time regardless of sub, and doesn't require a specific sub and blowing 1 of only 2 strats per 2 mins on said sub.
saevel
09-17-2011, 11:57 AM
Yup, my number was wrong, it's 13% better, which would make Phalanx 2 merits better than Slow 2 and Para 2 merits above 1.
EDIT: In terms of percentage increase over Pld's, compared to 1 it's better all the time regardless of sub, and doesn't require a specific sub and blowing 1 of only 2 strats per 2 mins on said sub.
Its FOUR *** damage, did you not get that or are you being deliberately obtuse. Four as in the monster hits the PLD for 196 damage instead of the monster hitting the PLD for 200 (in that case its a 2% increase not a 13%). Your wasting half of your Tier II merits for such a small increase, there is a reason why it's considered so *** like Blind II.
Neisan_Quetz
09-17-2011, 12:00 PM
Compared to incredible increase of more slow merits? Those are pretty much, completely ignorable after the first merit, Paralyze 2 isn't any better as it's also 1% per merit.
Ophannus
09-18-2011, 06:29 PM
Precisely why RDM sucks. We're the best enfeeblers in the game but only if you count our merit spells since other jobs have allllll of our enfeebles except Grav which is also useless. That's like making Cure6 merit spells for WHM but giving Curagas and Cure 5 and Na's to other jobs.
Kitkat
09-19-2011, 03:28 AM
This was on of my complaints about enhancing magic effects scaling after cap rose above 75. The spells didn't seem to reflect well due to new conversion equations. By 95 with capped enhancing+gear+merit (16) the bar spells gain a whole 35 resistance. Mitigation from Phalanx hardly climbs at all, and same for enspells, stoneskin requires gear to enhance the spell to gain additional absorption (all combined give +100 capping out at 450). I would half expect another Scaling adjustment to be made to these spells again to make the scaling even worse meaning the higher rank in enhancing becomes almost negligible to where it soon becomes only 1 point difference every 40 skill which is about the difference in skill by 95.
I think if anything SE needs to take a look at the scaling first off so that the different ranks each job has will have noticeable differences before trying to add any type of passive trait or straight-out JA that increases enhancing magic. Composure is nice, but as skill goes over the 400, nearing 500 with gear it is obvious that there really is no difference between ranks in this category let alone reason to keep using +skill gear when casting when it is such a large tier gap.
I mean the Phalanx debate is reason enough. I mean come on...4 point difference when rdm has that much more enhancing over a pld is really quite sad.
noodles355
09-19-2011, 06:43 PM
Re: Enhancing magic scaling, yeah it's pretty wank. They could just scale it better, or perhaps they could release higher tier spells. Stoneskin II, Aquaviel II, Phalanx III, etc.
Also, our self-target spells like Gains, bars, enspells and such... Not extending them to party members sucks.
Right now, the best barspell in the game comes from WHM. Why? They are healers, not buffers. The strongest Barspell should come from a buffing job like Rdm.
I'm all up for other jobs having AoE versions of Rdm's buff spells at a lower potency but when their AoE versions are actually stronger than a "buff and debuff specialist" then something is wrong. Surely the trade off for making the spell AoE should be having a weaker affect?
Also, I believe someone posted on the forums somewhere that the manifesto was mis-translated to english and was in fact meant to say "Transforming themselves from mere mortals to demi-gods" and not "transforming their allies". I could be wrong though.
saevel
09-19-2011, 07:45 PM
Basically the JP one states making one self into virtual demi-gods while supporting the party by weakening the enemy. During the English translation they got the phrasing wrong and it turned into support others and while making them demi gods and weakening the enemy. RDM never was a buffing job, Haste and Refresh do not a buffer make. Haste just happens to be the most potent buff in the game, with Cure IV being all that was required to keep a group of four melee's alive.
Daniel_Hatcher
09-19-2011, 08:02 PM
As a side note, I really hope they raise RDM's Enhancing Skill to at least A-.
It really sucks that any job /sch can match them.
saevel
09-19-2011, 08:15 PM
Seriously man, I live for Enhancing magic.
It's why i think any buffs / modifications to the RDM job should be through enhancing spells. We should have spells that raise our melee power, and spells that raise our magic power. Give us a spell that jacks up our MAB, but overwrites / is overwritten by Temper. Also why I push for a super HoT or other heal via enhancing magic spell. There is so much untapped developer potential there, could create entirely new dynamics by just adding enhancing spells that alter our stats. The ability to add 20 STR alone is freaking epic, that really hasn't set into peolple's heads yet but it will, along with the 20~25 DEX and INT we'll be getting next time.
Crimson_Slasher
09-19-2011, 09:25 PM
Actually another new idea for enhancing heal magic, we could take a bit of calculator work into the situation and make a heal that works THROUGH buffing, and can share it with sch likewise. Why not create a regen or cure based spell that restores hp based upon the number of buffs (abyssean ones excluded) the caster or reciever have in effect. For example if caster, with a regen, it could be say 5hp per tic (or a flat 60 hp if cure), and if the rdm has stoneskin, haste, refresh, regen, aquaveil, blink, icespikes, gain-x bar-elm, bar-status, enspell, and whatever else we decide upon, that is 11 buffs, so at 5/buff/tic that equals 55hp per tic (or 660HP if a cure based spell) , but has the steep cost of needing to maintain a number of self buffs, and cure potency may not affect it, as for enhancing magic, the potency of the multiplication could be based upon the enhancing calculation, and it could be independant of cure potency gear (creating less shackle to the staffs)
Swords
09-20-2011, 01:17 AM
While not a bad idea, but considering what people want RDM to be versus what RDM is trying NOT to be I think something like that would throw us back into the same situation as before only this time putting more stress on a WHM or other mages to keep things like bar spells, gain spells, auspice, and junk buffs on players at all times to enhance that cure potency. If there was a diminishing scale to it like say like 200hp for 2 buffs, 300 for 3, 350 for 4, 400 for 5, and +25 for each buff up to 10, then +10 from there on, or a hard cap like 500hp, it might diminish the power enough where people won't try thoroughly abuse the mechanics.
Anucris
09-20-2011, 03:35 AM
Whomever was right about rdm phalan 2 being stronger than pld but rdm phalanx 1 is better than rdm phalanx 2 with capped merits. I think this scaling is ok because it's more potent casting the one that targets urself. SE could use this strategy more. Make spells like temper be pt member targetable but increase the potency when cast on self. I think this is a great idea. Hmm what else could we add it to. . .
Neisan_Quetz
09-20-2011, 04:17 AM
Did you look at the formulas? They're both the same at 420 skill.
Anucris
09-20-2011, 04:30 AM
I like that idea slasher. But let's add haste to the mix and add 1% more haste per 5 buffs. Now DD want rdm haste more cause it will likely be 2% higher. I would def count cure potency on ur curing spell. The regen is nice. Add this with my previous post and bam rdm r the ideal buff masters for tanks. Xtra haste low proc temper good regen. I would leave bars and protect/shell to the whm and still only be backup cure. That cure spell could have a longer delay than other cures.
And on enfeebled SE could just make mobs that r immune to para/ blind/ slow be susceptible the the tier 2 version. Make spells like silence wear off after 15-20 seconds or something and last 5 seconds less each additional cast. Spells like ailence are completely useless in abyssea I don't think I've battled a magic casting NM that was succectible to it. Make break land short duration like a stun. Why give us spells if they won't work?
Anucris
09-20-2011, 04:40 AM
Did you look at the formulas? They're both the same at 420 skill.
My bad. Ur right I didn't realize there was a seperate formula for over 300 enhancing. That's dumb not like rdm got awesome def and vit they should just use the under 300 formula so it would be like -32 for phalanx 2 and -40 for phalanx because I still liked my idea. What did u think of it u didn't comment on that
Neisan_Quetz
09-20-2011, 06:44 AM
If Phalanx 1 is buffed Phalanx 2 should be buffed, what's the point of a Tier 2 weaker than the Tier 1? We already have that in enspells. None of Rdm's Tier 2 spells from merits should be worse than the Tier 1 (regardless if it takes 5 merits to do so...), you're asking for the equivalent of defender merits.
Kitkat
09-20-2011, 07:33 AM
Personally, as someone else mentioned, I would love to see Phalanx II removed as a Tier II, made a scroll, and instead give a "Enhances Phalanx Effect" merit option. With NM's hitting a tank for upwards of 200+ on standard attacks, and upwards of 1000 on TP moves, it isn't too much to ask that Phalanx goes up to 40 or 50 dmg mitigation range. Heck, even taking into account the Ironclad in Ule. Range getting stronger with each 2hour until it hits for over 1k each attack should be proof enough this isn't an outlandish request.
Additionally, this could be made into an all encompassing merit option where it affects Spikes, Enspell, Phalanx, and Aquaviel buy increasing the potency of these type of Enhancing spells (Don't misread and think I mean a merit option for each spell, I mean it to cover all of these spells equally through one merit option). This would go a long way into giving Rdm a distinct place using the unique spells available to them. About the only spells that seem to be scaling well for rdm at the moment appears to be Gain-attribute spells so I wouldn't want the merit option to affect these.
The reasoning behind this would be to place rdm back in a usable role outside of refresh/haste/back up support roles while also enhancing the self buff aspects. So it benifits them in both a PT backline and a hybrid melee (demi-god) aspect.
saevel
09-20-2011, 08:54 AM
My bad. Ur right I didn't realize there was a seperate formula for over 300 enhancing. That's dumb not like rdm got awesome def and vit they should just use the under 300 formula so it would be like -32 for phalanx 2 and -40 for phalanx because I still liked my idea. What did u think of it u didn't comment on that
He's being a bit dishonest actually. Its only the same at 5/5 Phalanx II, basically you have to use half of your tier II merits in order to beat out what a PLD does naturally.
Neisan_Quetz
09-20-2011, 09:16 AM
I wasn't being dishonest, I mentioned that in my post.
Anucris
09-21-2011, 11:01 PM
The point neisan was to have spells that r cast on yourself be stronger than ones cast on pt members. The reason it's a tier 2 spell is because it's pt member targetable not because it's stronger. I wouldn't mind seeing them just buff phalanx 1. This could also help pld a lil more perhaps. And why only limit it to enspells they should take the idea to most rdm spells.
Neisan_Quetz
09-21-2011, 11:09 PM
Buffing Phalanx 1 does almost nothing for us outside of solo and being married to /sch, it would be a bigger benefit to Pld and /rdm (Sch), why should I care about a buff to only Phalanx 1? If anything it should be either a) Both should be buffed or b) We should be allowed more merit points in Category 2.
Anucris
09-22-2011, 02:36 AM
Oh in that case I vote for B. But ur still only talking about phalanx. I was talking about red mages identity as opposed to being the debuffer that NM's r immune to. I just couldn't see em buffing phalanx 2 for fear of some kinda abuse. The reason I suggested phalanx 1 was because rdm r rather squishy Neway once SS wears. So no real abuse there. Just helpful. And this all stemmed from wanting temper to be pt castable and having tue activation rate be increased when cast oneself. Or like when rdm cast haste on himself being 1-2% higher than when cast on pt member. Sure this mainly enhances rdm as solo except for making spells like temper pt castable. I was talking about making them very good enhancers while tweaking and improving their enfeeble. Thus changing their identity a bit from just casting blind/para/slow whichever the NM isn't immune to and phalanx to adding more enhancing options for pt members and improving their physical skills through spells beyond what others get. An A- rank with sword would also be very welcome with these additions.