Suggestions(Feedback) for Relic(Weapon) and Mythic Improvement!

[Karbuncle]

Hello!

A While back, It was said by a Rep they had plans to expand and update Relic weapons, and they would like our feedback regarding what each Relic should be updated with to make them more powerful and Unique.

Aside from the Obvious adjustments to some of the Weaponskills (and maybe aftermath...), I created this here so that maybe they can get/see your Feedback in one location. (also because i couldn't find the other thread, and if i recall, its drowned in bickering).

Without further adieu, I bring to you my small suggestion.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Add Weaponskill Stats to the Weapons:
Similar to how Empyrean Weapons all have their main mod as a +stat on the weapon, Can do something similar to Relics, but in a weaker way. I.E right now the level 90Emps have Stat+15, with the next update likely Stat+20.

For Level 95 Relics, They could add Stats+10, I.E Mandau would get STR+10, and so on. This would be a small boost, but would help in a good way.

Add Unique Buffs for each weapon, Perhaps Split Paths for each job:
Similar to Mythic, But also very Different. Mythics Deserve some light too! However, An Example of what i mean is as follows:

(Note These would not become job specific, Simply determine the buffs you would get)

THF-Path
Mandau:
Triple Attack +2% (95)
Triple Attack +3% (99)

RDM-Path
Mandau:
Spell Enhancement Damage +8 (95)
Spell enhancement Damage +12 (99)

something that is special to the Job that can equip it, A small boost varying in power based on a specific path you take it, and so on. However, This also might fall in line more with Mythic buffs as well!

Byrth's List of Suggestions


Final Thought: Add yours!
So don't be shy to make some suggestions, You can also come in and disagree with mine, I know its impossible to stop a topic from going off discussion, But i ask you nicely to refrain from childish bickering.

Feel free to voice your opinion still, Just have to ask :)!

Edit: Suggestions From this thread on Relics:

Universal Idea



H2H Suggestions:



Dagger Suggestions:



Sword Suggestions:



Great Swordr Suggestions:



Axe Suggestions:



Great axe Suggestions:



Katana Suggestions:



Great Katanar Suggestions:



Scythe Suggestions:



Polearm Suggestions:



Club Suggestions:



Staff Suggestions:



Archery Suggestions:



Marks Suggestions:



Horn Suggestions:

[DebbieGibson]

Post more!!

[Karbuncle]

I could! but I'd need to give it some serious thought! ... give me an hour >_>

[Rearden]

Add a unique Song to Gjallarhorn, eg, Massacre Elegy.

Every other Mythic/Relic has gotten a boost at Lv90, enough a boost in most cases to make them on par/better than Empyrean Counterparts outside of Abyssea...except Gjallarhorn.

+3 to all songs (and even if it was +4, +5, etc) is not enough and largely an irrelevant factor. The only time its +40 skill comes into play is for Scherzo (also the same place the +3 currently comes into play, and to a smaller degree with Marches). +3 (+4 w/AF3+2) Ballads are also not a worthy enough boon for a Gjallarhorn with large amount of refresh that can be gained by non-Gjallarhorn BRDs (9/tic) sub-RDM (3/tic) idle (varies, but usually at least 3/tic) and RefreshII (Minimum 6/tic).

tl:dr

-7% Damage Taken on attacks that would consume 75% or more of your HP, or 32/255:Magical Haste is hardly a boon worthy of what the Gjallarhorn is, its relic counterparts, and the time it takes to create one.

Make Massacre Elegy a Gjallarhorn specific song, make Gjallarhorn a worthwhile relic again.

[Runespider]

Aside from boost the WS and aftermath it would be nice if we got new JA with relic/mythics equipped, I think that would really boost them to the top if done right. Maybe the ability to have stronger fulltime versions of zerk/bloodrage :D Yeah that would be silly broken, but the game is broken anyway!

[Ank]

Biggest thing I think is SE just needs to relook at the relic ws, some of them are pretty terrible

[Karbuncle]

Biggest thing I think is SE just needs to relook at the relic ws, some of them are pretty terrible

I'm hoping when they "Revisit" a lot of the Weaponskills for planned adjustments, Relic WS get a strong looking over. They were designed for a different era of play, and need to be updated to fit the new game style!

[Vortex]

Add a unique Song to Gjallarhorn, eg, Massacre Elegy.

Every other Mythic/Relic has gotten a boost at Lv90, enough a boost in most cases to make them on par/better than Empyrean Counterparts outside of Abyssea...except Gjallarhorn.

+3 to all songs (and even if it was +4, +5, etc) is not enough and largely an irrelevant factor. The only time its +40 skill comes into play is for Scherzo (also the same place the +3 currently comes into play, and to a smaller degree with Marches). +3 (+4 w/AF3+2) Ballads are also not a worthy enough boon for a Gjallarhorn with large amount of refresh that can be gained by non-Gjallarhorn BRDs (9/tic) sub-RDM (3/tic) idle (varies, but usually at least 3/tic) and RefreshII (Minimum 6/tic).

tl:dr

-7% Damage Taken on attacks that would consume 75% or more of your HP, or 32/255:Magical Haste is hardly a boon worthy of what the Gjallarhorn is, its relic counterparts, and the time it takes to create one.

Make Massacre Elegy a Gjallarhorn specific song, make Gjallarhorn a worthwhile relic again.

I'm sorry but even tho i like the idea of MAssacre Elegy this would defiantly be to OP, 50% slow is already powerful as is. let's be honest here. Relic or not. i think "from what i seen from Simrugh" it's 75% slow or 100% either way that is very broken to give to BRD.

Honestly, BRD is fine, they do a great job and do it well. G horn just makes it so you don't need to carry an army of extra instruments and all +3 at 90.

only thing they can change with BRD is the meel aspect of it. don't fix what isn't broken. even if i went for a relic g horn would be the only one i'd do.

[Rearden]

So what does a Gjallarhorn offer then?

[Karbuncle]

I think Gjallarhorn does need a little extra something. Right now its just a lot of something BRDs dont need/already can get. Its a nice Instrument, But i also feel its not unique enough, especially when you consider the effort involved in getting one.

Maybe not Masacre Elegy... But something.

Edit: Also have to remember by 95/99 We might see All Songs +4/5, And i dont think Non-Relic instruments will be going past +3.

[Vortex]

So what does a Gjallarhorn offer then?

Nothing? G horn isn't like the rest of the relics, what could you possible give it? +5 songs? i mean...other then more + to songs, what could you give it that wont Op an already strong support job..

[Karbuncle]

Nothing? G horn isn't like the rest of the relics, what could you possible give it? +5 songs? i mean...other then more + to songs, what could you give it that wont Op an already strong support job..

Problem is its as much of an investment as other Relics... So it does need something to set it apart. However, i agree its hard to not overpower, But +4/+5 to songs isn't that bad.

Though, how about brainstorming a completely unique song? I can't think of any, maybe a song that grants "Magic Attack Bonus" to boost its support in Mage parties?

"Sorcerer's Serenade"
Boosts Magic Accuracy and Magic Attack for party members in range.
Minimum (crap skill) = +10 macc/matk
Maximum (best possible?) = +30macc/matk.

Or something similar. a Unique spell.

[Vortex]

Problem is its as much of an investment as other Relics... So it does need something to set it apart. However, i agree its hard to not overpower, But +4/+5 to songs isn't that bad.

Though, how about brainstorming a completely unique song? I can't think of any, maybe a song that grants "Magic Attack Bonus" to boost its support in Mage parties?


"Sorcerer's Serenade"Boosts Magic Accuracy and Magic Attack for party members in range.
Minimum (crap skill) = +10 macc/matk
Maximum (best possible?) = +30macc/matk.

Or something similar. a Unique spell.


If you just want a "Unique" song that is only avilable to relic it would have to be something that greatly extends the duration of songs or other buffs casted on party, similer to how mythic BRD dagger works. that is the only "fair" way i see for g horn.

MAB and MACC are already on COR since they have rolls that do that, so it wouldn't exactly be "exclusive"

[Karbuncle]

If you just want a "Unique" song that is only avilable to relic it would have to be something that greatly extends the duration of songs or other buffs casted on party, similer to how mythic BRD dagger works. that is the only "fair" way i see for g horn.

MAB and MACC are already on COR since they have rolls that do that, so it wouldn't exactly be "exclusive"

Didn't want Exclusive, just unique for the case of BRD, i guess unique wasn't the right word? "something that can only be done with this instrument". I should say.

Maybe Extending Song Duration by ~25%? But then it treads on the Mythic's purpose. you see my conundrum :(

[Rearden]

+4/+5 to songs won't really help make Gjallahorn any more useful than a BRD+RDM combo. It would allow you to save one party spot, but that's really it. Depending on how high it went, it would also allow you cast non-SV marches for the same haste values as a non-Gjallahorn BRD's SV, but again that's really it.

Considering it is the same time investment as an Aegis (40% Magic Damage Reduction OVER 50% Magic Damage Taken Cap for an effective 90% (88.7?) reduction) I don't see how it a) doesn't have a unique song or b) why Massacre Elegy would be broken when held in the same light as other relics

[Vortex]

Didn't want Exclusive, just unique for the case of BRD, i guess unique wasn't the right word? "something that can only be done with this instrument". I should say.

Maybe Extending Song Duration by ~25%? But then it treads on the Mythic's purpose. you see my conundrum :(

Let's be honest here, how many BRDS do you even know with mythic dagger lol. i think it's a great dagger, but the amount of work put into getting a mythic i certainly won't waste it on that dagger, rather it be something else, like yagrush. and most people who do one mythic usualy don't do another in sanity cases.

I guess you would need Massecre Elegy but i don't see it happining, you put say slow 2 and Massacre elegy on a mob it will bascily be swinging once per 30 seconds or something like that.

[Karbuncle]

Yah, But if Gjallarhorn takes what makes Mythic unique, then the Mythic would truly becomes worthless/less sought after.

I mean, I don't feel it a big problem but in SE's eyes it might not be in line with their "Vision" of Mythics.

[SpankWustler]

Add Weaponskill Stats to the Weapons:
Similar to how Empyrean Weapons all have their main mod as a +stat on the weapon, Can do something similar to Relics, but in a weaker way. I.E right now the level 90Emps have Stat+15, with the next update likely Stat+20.

For Level 95 Relics, They could add Stats+10, I.E Mandau would get STR+10, and so on. This would be a small boost, but would help in a good way.

Assuming the weapon skills aren't revised, some weapons would just get junk like +5 MND and +5 CHR for jobs that barely use either. Keeping Relics entirely different from Empyreans is appealing for purely aesthetic reasons, too.

I think a better solution might be to put both accuracy and attack on all Relic weapons. This would go with the theme of "these things are hitting sticks intended for hitting things that are hard to hit properly" and work well with the mysterious absence of an attack or accuracy boost on relic weapon skills.

For example:

Mandau
(Dagger) All Races
DMG: 49 Delay: 176 Attack +35 Accuracy +17
"Mercy Stroke"
Additional effect: Poison
Lv. 90 RDM / THF / BRD

Apocalypse
(Scythe) All Races
DMG: 140 Delay: 513 Accuracy +35 Attack +17
"Catastrophe"
Additional effect: Blindness
Lv. 90 DRK

I guess the main draw-back of this bonus is that it's really boring compared to your suggestion.

Also, the additional effects on many of the weapons should be adjusted if not replaced entirely. Why would a Dark Knight want to blind anything? Why would a Dragoon want to randomly apply a Defense Down which is worse than Angon? Why would Thief, or any other melee, want to apply a 10 HP a tick poison?

[Karbuncle]

Snip!

Also, the additional effects on many of the weapons should be adjusted if not replaced entirely. Why would a Dark Knight want to blind anything? Why would a Dragoon want to randomly apply a Defense Down which is worse than Angon? Why would Thief, or any other melee, want to apply a 10 HP a tick poison?

Aye, When i made the idea for Stats on weapons to effect mods of their prime WS, i was working under the assumption a lot of WS adjustments would make those weaponskills more appealing, and since you already have the weapons on, Giving MND+15 on a Weapon would only help the Relic WS, and not need to sacrifice another slot to build more MND for it, so to speak.

On the bottom part, I agree... Maybe if the Mandau's Poison was 30hp/tic or something powerful, it could really add up to help their DPS (10dmg/sec additional). Those should be rethinked, or just replaced for some jobs. (Swords can stay). Increasing the Potency on some of them might help though. Who knows.

Theres a lot that can be done to improve relics, I'm not sure I could brainstorm a lot outside of commonly wanted stats... Triple Attack, Critical hit rate, Critical hit Damage, Haste, TP Bonus, etc.

I mean Theoretically you could give each a distinguishing buff, Like...




The idea would be to keep Relic weapons "Best Damage" ones, so for Club/Staff, I don't want to add buffs like "Cure Potency" or "Magic Damage"... those should be saved for Mythics. IDK? Some more help?

[DebbieGibson]

brd is already getting massacre elegy

[Karbuncle]

I could have sworn i read they were "Considering" adding it but needed to keep in mind "Balance" and what not?

[Helel]

Yeah, I don't understand why people keep discussing massacre elegy when it was already brought up by the devs in the BRD forum. Based on what they posted, it was pretty obvious that G horn was going to get access to it.


We have plans to. However, when considering the stats, we are planning to make it so this isn’t a song that can be used by just anyone.

[Rearden]

Mainly just so it gets read, potentially, and not forgotten.

[SpankWustler]

The idea would be to keep Relic weapons "Best Damage" ones, so for Club/Staff, I don't want to add buffs like "Cure Potency" or "Magic Damage"... those should be saved for Mythics. IDK? Some more help?

It wouldn't even have to go as far as your examples, really. I think a lot of people would be happy if the changes were stuff as simple as the bow and gun having -enmity added, "Additional Effect: Blind" being moved to Mandau, and Gungnir's additional effect changed to Evasion Down.

The club and staff actually have additional effects that kind of make sense at present, although the staff's additional effect is pretty situational. The club could just be changed to a more Tizona-like effect if other weapons were greatly enhanced.

[VoiceMemo]

For those of you who don't read bard forums, SE has stated that Massacre elegy WILL be added, I quote Camate, "We have plans to. However, when considering the stats, we are planning to make it so this isn’t a song that can be used by just anyone."

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12312-Bard-Job-Manifesto

Whether or not this will be Gjallarhorn only song is a topic of discussion, I for one would welcome it(albeit biased), since I do have Gjallarhorn.

And for those of you bards who don't have Gjallarhorn, I posted info about it in a dynamis post(linking rather than posting wall of text again). In my opinion ALL relics are obtainable by anyone now with dynamis adjustments(even though I DON'T really like them) as long as such person is willing to put in the time and effort.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13059-dev1023-Dynamis-Adjustments/page6

[DebbieGibson]

If massacre elegy is only on ghorn I will have to get a ghorn for brd mule.

[Seriha]

While most have been focusing on statistical improvements, I still feel like methods of acquisition need some tweaks. Both Relics and Mythics are still heavy gil and/or time investments, of which such sentiment fuels the desire for higher stats.

[Atomic_Skull]

First of all dispose of the hidden +25% relic WS damage multiplier on lvl 90 relics. This was a ghetto way to try to fix relics and should be removed.

Make the following changes to Relic weapons:

Number of hits in relic WS now = number of hits in the animation of the WS (currently relic WS are 1 hit) Generally speaking the 1H relics have 4 hit animations and the 2H relics have 2 hit animations, but are much higher DMG weapons so it evens out.

All relics WS become TP=chance of critical hit with 50% base chance of a critical at 100% TP. Combined with the hit # change this would effectively mean that all 2H relic WS would be Ukko's Fury +1 and all 1H relic WS would be Victory Smite +1.

All relic WS have cRatio bonus like Y/G/K

Increase duration and potency of aftermath.

Increase double/triple damage proc rate from 5% to 20%

Optionally: review added effect on relic weapons and change the useless/detrimental ones like Poison to something useful.

[Atomic_Skull]

(Note These would not become job specific, Simply determine the buffs you would get)

THF-Path
Mandau:
Triple Attack +2% (95)
Triple Attack +3% (99)

RDM-Path
Mandau:
Spell Enhancement Damage +8 (95)
Spell enhancement Damage +12 (99)

something that is special to the Job that can equip it, A small boost varying in power based on a specific path you take it, and so on. However, This also might fall in line more with Mythic buffs as well!

Final Thought: Add yours!
So don't be shy to make some suggestions, You can also come in and disagree with mine, I know its impossible to stop a topic from going off discussion, But i ask you nicely to refrain from childish bickering.

Feel free to voice your opinion still, Just have to ask :)!

They don't need to add paths they could just add job specific stats like the Shigeto bow.

I still think my fixes would be better as they are system related changes that don't require any change to the items.

[Atomic_Skull]

Biggest thing I think is SE just needs to relook at the relic ws, some of them are pretty terrible

Relic WS are all basically identical.

fTP 3.0 stat_60% 1 hit. TP = aftermath duration.


A few of them like Yoichinoyumi are fTP 2.7 instead of fTP 3.0

[Atomic_Skull]

Assuming the weapon skills aren't revised, some weapons would just get junk like +5 MND and +5 CHR for jobs that barely use either. Keeping Relics entirely different from Empyreans is appealing for purely aesthetic reasons, too.

I think a better solution might be to put both accuracy and attack on all Relic weapons. This would go with the theme of "these things are hitting sticks intended for hitting things that are hard to hit properly" and work well with the mysterious absence of an attack or accuracy boost on relic weapon skills.

For example:

Mandau
(Dagger) All Races
DMG: 49 Delay: 176 Attack +35 Accuracy +17
"Mercy Stroke"
Additional effect: Poison
Lv. 90 RDM / THF / BRD

Apocalypse
(Scythe) All Races
DMG: 140 Delay: 513 Accuracy +35 Attack +17
"Catastrophe"
Additional effect: Blindness
Lv. 90 DRK

I guess the main draw-back of this bonus is that it's really boring compared to your suggestion.

Also, the additional effects on many of the weapons should be adjusted if not replaced entirely. Why would a Dark Knight want to blind anything? Why would a Dragoon want to randomly apply a Defense Down which is worse than Angon? Why would Thief, or any other melee, want to apply a 10 HP a tick poison?

You are probably not aware of this but the added effect on relics is related to the items the goblin requests to make the first stage. For example he asks you for a canterella (a very potent poison made from an orc liver) on the first stage of Mandau. Changing the added effects wouldn't really make sense in relation to the quest storyline if it were changed to some other random effect.

[Soidisant]

They could make Relics ignore level correction and/or PDT. Maybe make them only be subject to halved level correction and/orPDT. That would give them a decent boost against the harder NM's

Up their 'Occasionally deals 2-3x damage' from ~8% to ~20% and make it proccable on WS'es. Also make them all 3x damage.

Up the +25% WS damage to +50% at 95 and possibly +100% at 99. Or give them worthwhile modifiers. We all know the crit WS'es like Ukko's Fury are ridiculous but even stuff like Torcleaver's 4.75/5.75/6.5 makes Scourge's 3.0 and Catastrophe's 2.75 look pitiful. Even a 50% boost pegs them lower than Torcleaver's 100% FTP.




I'd say have them do more job specific stuff but since some of them are dual jobs, that makes it tricky.

[SpankWustler]

You are probably not aware of this but the added effect on relics is related to the items the goblin requests to make the first stage. For example he asks you for a canterella (a very potent poison made from an orc liver) on the first stage of Mandau. Changing the added effects wouldn't really make sense in relation to the quest storyline if it were changed to some other random effect.

Yeah, I never made that connection until now. I assumed he just lied and ate some of the random stuff he asked for, because goblins are weird.

It always surprises me how much story is involved in older FFXI content.

[Winrie]

I've always had a firm belief in time spent should equal higher profit, since the release of empys that has seemed to be defied and went backwards. Honestly I'd like to see mythics be the top caliber weapons considering the difficulty and time it takes, relics would be second up and lastly empys. Mythics should gain special job specific aftermaths like perhaps smn mythic at 99 aftermath could grant a 50% mp cost reduction for bloodpacts based on what tp you ws at, or burtgang could grant a heavy potent sentinel effect with an enmity up effect per action you do in the aftermath timeframe. Other suggestion would be to allow the 99 weapons to grant you access to a unique ability or spell only obtainable via the relic or mythic at 99. Yes I mean like ghorn having massacre elegy and say like nirvana having a special bloodpact for the avatars, Amano maybe granting access to something like mediate 2 or an advanced hasso. Giving apoc a ja that forces any ws to crit. Idk silly ideas but I think they would fix relic and mythic issues and make the content worth pursuing again. But yeah don't forget to give them some attributes or maybe some nice attack stats on the weapon. Lol jus my ideas

[Creelo]

Just wanna say that Gjallarhorn will probably NOT be getting "All Songs +5" at the lvl 99 Cap since it doesn't follow the path that it's currently been on. I would be truly shocked if it did anyways.

This next update will probably only see an additional Skill boost (+5 Wind/Singing each) and an additional Chr+2 (For Chr+10 Total).

And the lvl 99 upgrade would basically just make "All Songs +3" into "All Songs +4." This is similar to the lvl 85 Gjallarhorn upgrade to 90 (Only upgrade then was to "All Songs +3").

This is why Gjallarhorn's current relic path is so dull, it hardly offers anything more than extra space. Massacre Elegy would be quite welcomed.

[Vold]

I'm sorry but even tho i like the idea of MAssacre Elegy this would defiantly be to OP, 50% slow is already powerful as is. let's be honest here. Relic or not. i think "from what i seen from Simrugh" it's 75% slow or 100% either way that is very broken to give to BRD.

Honestly, BRD is fine, they do a great job and do it well. G horn just makes it so you don't need to carry an army of extra instruments and all +3 at 90.

only thing they can change with BRD is the meel aspect of it. don't fix what isn't broken. even if i went for a relic g horn would be the only one i'd do.Advice to you and everyone who thinks it's 2005 still: You let SE worry about balance and what is and isn't overpowering. Yo' butt has one job: Tell them what you expect to see for 2-300 million gil or the time equivalent.

One idea of many: Utsusemi San on katana. I'd do that quest whether it was relic or Mythic, no matter the cost. I would run over babies on my way to the starter NPC. I would call Chuck Norris a pussy to his face. I would watch paint dry for a month straight. I would watch the Opera on a daily basis. I would do damn near anything for Utsusemi San. As things stand, I wouldn't even wash a damn car to own a Kikoku. Just sayin'

[Tigeriris]

Yes, I for one hope they add Massacre Elegy to Ghorn only. Even if Massacre Elegy is/could be broken, its well worth the 200M or so gil.

As for Apocalypse I think SE should make Catastrophe's Haste not Equipment haste and allow it to surpass the haste cap, just as they have for Aegis and Burtgang.

[Concerned4FFxi]

i agree +3 vs. an extra song is just easy math, redo the relic for brd

[Insaniac]

As a relic owner I'm a bit amazed at some of the suggestions. They are far more than I would have ever asked for. AnywHay.. here's what I would do.


across all relics:
1) Continue with the ftp increases.
2) Change the 2-3x damage to 3x on all weapons
3) Increase the relic proc rate from 5-7% to 10%
4) Add att to the 2h and acc to the 1h weapons
5) Change the aftermath duration to at least 30s per 100tp

Now individual changes

Spharai
Continue enhancing counter.
Change final heaven into a crit WS. Ascetic fury +1 if you will
Change the aftermath to - Enhances martial arts

Mandau <3
Increase the aftermath crit rate by 5 or 10%
Change the ftp on MS to increase with TP similar to RS.

Excalibur
Increase the proc rate of the add effect
Increase the regen aftermath to something like 30-50 a tick.

Ragnarok
Make scourge crit
Change the mods on scourge to 40% STR 40% INT

Guttler
Increase the aftermath to +25% att and have it effect your pet as well.

Bravura
Allow Metatron to crit

Apocalypse
Change the aftermath to magical haste
Change the mods on Cata to 40% STR40% INT

Gungnir
Change Geirskogul mod to 60% STR
Add an effect to Geirskogul that refills your wyverns HP
Change the attack down to not overwrite angon or make it equally as good.

Kikoku
Make metsu a 4hit WS as it's animation suggests
Increase the potency of the para effect to the same level as fully merited Para II
Change the aftermath to Increases DW effect by 5 or 10%

Amanomurakumo
Change the aftermath to a 2-3/tick regain effect.
Increase Kaiten ftp with TP similar to Fudo

Mjollnir
No clue honestly I don't really see a better melee whm option so leaveit as it is

Claustrum
There's really nothing I can think of to do with this weapon. The only option I see is giving it all affinity acc/att +5 and -5 avatar perp cost.

Annihilator
I think this gun is actually pretty good as it is. With the new TA ability a Anni RNG should be able to go balls out with very little fear of pulling hate.
Maybe change Coronach mods to 40% STR 40% AGI

Yoichinoyumi
Reduce the static enmity to the same level as gun.

Gjallarhorn
Probably getting Massacre Elegy. Sounds good enough to me.

Aegis
Aegis is boss. Leave it be.

I may try and come up with something for mythics later.
Should paste all the suggestions into the OP so they don't get lost.

[Chriscoffey]

Yes, I for one hope they add Massacre Elegy to Ghorn only. Even if Massacre Elegy is/could be broken, its well worth the 200M or so gil.

As for Apocalypse I think SE should make Catastrophe's Haste not Equipment haste and allow it to surpass the haste cap, just as they have for Aegis and Burtgang.
I wish that would be the case considering what you stated above. It would put dark back up as great spike damage job like they were before. The idea about it being magic haste is somewhat viable but with brd and dancer combos it is capped on most DD jobs so having its own category would make it a specialty to the job itself.

[Insaniac]

I wish that would be the case considering what you stated above. It would put dark back up as great spike damage job like they were before. The idea about it being magic haste is somewhat viable but with brd and dancer combos it is capped on most DD jobs so having its own category would make it a specialty to the job itself.

Making apoc DRKs the only job in the game able to surpass the haste cap would be beyond broken. The difference between 80% and 90% haste is a 50% increase in damage. Easily capped gear haste + 25% JA haste with desperate blows means you would only need non-SV marchs and WHM haste to be at 90% delay reduction for a full 3 minutes. That's 3 minutes of a 140 damage 51 delay weapon. That means swinging twice a second. No 2hrs needed. It's asking too much.

[Chriscoffey]

Making apoc DRKs the only job in the game able to surpass the haste cap would be beyond broken. The difference between 80% and 90% haste is a 50% increase in damage. Easily capped gear haste + 25% JA haste with desperate blows means you would only need non-SV marchs and WHM haste to be at 90% delay reduction for a full 3 minutes. That's 3 minutes of a 140 damage 51 delay weapon. That means swinging twice a second. No 2hrs needed. It's asking too much.
Considering just how back a dark knight is with a scythe at this point it would probably take that to put them up to the damage that other DD jobs now experience with increased DA rates, TA rates, etc etc. You are trying to compare this to jobs that have been OP because of critical hit weaponskills. Catastrophe isn't exactly a powerful weaponskill by itself but has great attributes. I can easily do double to triple my dark knights damage with my warrior so why is a 50% increase with their relic weapon so OP?

[Insaniac]

I don't know how to explain it any better. Having 90% haste 60% of the time and 81.5% haste the rest of the time or full time 90% if you have a DNC is utterly broken when the highest any other 2h DD can hope to reach without a DNC or SV marches is 71.5% (+2.5% for SAMs I guess) full time. You're looking at 100tp every ~3 seconds with LR up. 1 Mississippi 2 Mississippi 3 Mississippi.. an apoc DRK just swung 6 times for 350-700 damage did a cata for 1500-2000 and cured himself to full. Your war has swung twice. Maybe I do know how to explain it better.

[Atomic_Skull]

Considering just how back a dark knight is with a scythe at this point it would probably take that to put them up to the damage that other DD jobs now experience with increased DA rates, TA rates, etc etc. You are trying to compare this to jobs that have been OP because of critical hit weaponskills. Catastrophe isn't exactly a powerful weaponskill by itself but has great attributes. I can easily do double to triple my dark knights damage with my warrior so why is a 50% increase with their relic weapon so OP?

Haste doesn't increase attack speed, it decreases your delay. That's a very important distinction.

[Insaniac]

Haste doesn't increase attack speed, it decreases your delay. That's a very important distinction.

Looking back at my first post I did explain that wrong. What I should have said was that it would be a further delay reduction of 50%. Effectively doubling damage when you go from 80% to 90% haste since you would be attacking twice a second instead of once.

[Chriscoffey]

I know to be honest i was using apocalypse before when it was 93.3% im just trying to get it back up there lol seems you wont let me have my fun. I just think scythe WS are so much weaker due to the critical aspect that it takes alot more DOT damage to make up for the damage difference by DOT vs WS of the other DD jobs now.

[Soidisant]

You have to remember that DRK's are getting Scarlet Delirium next update too and if that has any sort of decent duration then it will go a good way to putting us back on par. I know that outside of Abyssea I am not more than 20% behind even the Ukon WAR's on parses in random stuff like Einherjar/KS99/etc.

If Apoc haste is allowed to go beyond cap then it will potentially put every non-apoc DD in the shade. So realistically I don't think that is the way to go. Any relic buff will have to be universal in the sense that all relics gets boosted equal-ish even if what they get is unique.

[Byrth]

I made some kinda-technical suggestions here a while ago (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/3658-Relic-Adjustments-The-balancing-act?p=51414&viewfull=1#post51414).

[Insaniac]

I made some kinda-technical suggestions here a while ago (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/3658-Relic-Adjustments-The-balancing-act?p=51414&viewfull=1#post51414).Heh, I looked for this post a little but didn't see it. I thought I only stole the thing about geirskogul draining HP for your wyvern. Looks like some of your other ideas may have stuck with me subconsciously lol. Either that or they made enough sense that we both thought of them.

[Byrth]

Either that or they made enough sense that we both thought of them.

I think this happens a lot, lol. Like how SE "implemented my Aegis idea," which was probably actually just them thinking of it themselves because it made sense.

I really hope the same thing happens with Apocalypse. Changing it to be a separate form of Haste (or even just Magic Haste) would let an Apoc DRK get 75% Haste about 3/4 of the time as long as they have a mage, even with Seigan up. It fits perfectly with their niche.

[uptempo]

I think this happens a lot, lol. Like how SE "implemented my Aegis idea," which was probably actually just them thinking of it themselves because it made sense.

I really hope the same thing happens with Apocalypse. Changing it to be a separate form of Haste (or even just Magic Haste) would let an Apoc DRK get 75% Haste about 3/4 of the time as long as they have a mage, even with Seigan up. It fits perfectly with their niche.

I'd be very happy if they did that to apoc.

[Chriscoffey]

I would like it to be a separate form of haste if anything was to change about it. I could take off most of my equipment haste gear and use the dark knight af3 instead or at the very least better stats instead of stacked haste for equipment. I normally have a bard and mage haste when im playing on dark so having the extra option to change up my magic/equipment haste would be beneficial.

[Tigeriris]

I still believe it should be separate from any type of haste we already get and it should break the "delay" cap. Yes, it could be all sorts of broken. But we must have forgotten things like Aegis-Ukon-Verethragna being already broken.

SE gives Aegis MDT past the cap, no one says much other than yayyy woot! But Heaven forbid they let Apoc break the haste cap, otherwise all the other DD's will be crying. Also even if it becomes broken, I think that 928 out of the hundreds of thousands of players who have an Apoc deserve it.

[Atomic_Skull]

I still believe it should be separate from any type of haste we already get and it should break the "delay" cap. Yes, it could be all sorts of broken. But we must have forgotten things like Aegis-Ukon-Verethragna being already broken.

90% haste would be broken in a way that makes Ukon look underpowered. Stop asking for this because it's not going to happen.

[Insaniac]

I still believe it should be separate from any type of haste we already get and it should break the "delay" cap. Yes, it could be all sorts of broken. But we must have forgotten things like Aegis-Ukon-Verethragna being already broken.

SE gives Aegis MDT past the cap, no one says much other than yayyy woot! But Heaven forbid they let Apoc break the haste cap, otherwise all the other DD's will be crying. Also even if it becomes broken, I think that 928 out of the hundreds of thousands of players who have an Apoc deserve it.
You can have 90% haste if my Mandau gets permanent non-directional sneak attack.

[Malacite]

As far as Mythics go, I think the best thing to do would be to change the Aftermath to how people originally suspected it was going to work.

That is, rather than getting different effects at each stage, grant a lesser combination of all 3 effects at each level of TP, with the duration and effect strength of the AM going up at 200 and 300 TP. Several of them need their job-enhancements revised as well - Glanzfaust for example is a complete, utter joke. Meanwhile Kenkonken is still, IMO, better than even Verethragna as it allows for near-limitless maneuver spamming without fear of Overload.

Yagrush is pretty amazing, but I feel it could really use a bit of Cure Potency. Say 10~15% max at 99? That way it still wouldn't beat out Surya's +2 for straight up cures, but you could still keep it as a full-time option (especially if you get a lucky Genbu's Shield augment)

The main problem with the DD mythics in general is that they simply are not aggressive enough. Relics & Empyreans are supposed to out damage them, but I still feel that they could use a tweak either to the aftermath or job boosts that enable the DD's equipping them to be much more aggressive than they might be otherwise.


As for relic weapons, they're already pretty nice. The weapons themselves are still a force to be reckoned with (especially the 2 handers) and only really lose out to Empyreans for the most part because of the aftermath. To balance this, increasing the WS strength I think would be the best approach so that the damage more or less evens out a bit (though if I'm not mistaken, Empyreans *are* meant to be the best of the best, or "Gods among weapons" as SE put it at Vanafest)

[Insaniac]

So, this list was a little harder to come up with because there is very little known about some of these weapons but here goes anyway.

First off, make them easier to get FFS.

All these weapons from the start have been more about utility and not raw damage. Unfortunately That just doesn't work when your jobs only real duty is doing damage. The aftermaths on these weapons add a whole new dimension to play style and as easy as it would be to say they should get OAT on every level of aftermath I think that would kinda take something away from them so I'm gonna try to work around that. Level 4 increases to their "augment's ???" are pretty obvious so I will leave those out.

Warrior - Conqueror
Any GA needs some way to at least hold a candle the raw damage of Ukon. KJ just needs to do more damage. There's no way around it that I can see.

Monk - Glanzfaust
Should end up being solid by the time the fTP increases and level 4/5 augments are added.

White Mage - Yagrush
Amazing already

Black Mage - Laevateinn
Start tacking on m.acc and keep increasing mab.

Red Mage -Murgleis
Finish at 99 with +50 m.acc assuming magian staves are still +5 affinity
Add Enspell damage +20
Drastically improve the effectiveness of Death Blossoms m.eva down. Make it easier to land on NMs and have it floor any mobs mobs magic evasion against any spell they aren't completely immune to.

Thief - Vajra
Increase Mandalic stabs fTP to 3.0 3.25 and 3.5

Paladin - Burtgang
Continue down it's current path.

Dark Knight -Liberator
Add "enhances stalwart soul". Maybe an extra 20%? Have "enhances absorb spells" affect the new buff stealing spell by increasing it's base to 2 buffs absorbs and 3 buffs with nethervoid.

Beastmaster -Aymur
Kinda makes sense for BST but because most pet TP moves do junk for damage and TP bonus really doesn't do much how about change the TP bonus to an equivalent damage multiplier on physical TP moves. That would be double sic/ready damage with the level 90.

Bard - Carnwenhan
Ehhh this dagger does pretty much what's advertised but it's kind of underwhelming. Maybe increase the m.acc to 50 on the level 99 so you can use it for enfeebs on stronger mobs instead of hq/magian staves.

Ranger - Gastraphetes
I just don't know on this one. How do you fix a crossbow when no RNG in the world uses a crossbow?

Samurai - Kogarasumaru
I don't know what this weapon does..

Ninja - Nagi
This is SEs tanking katana. Unfortunately doing a beastly Blade: Hi kinda laughs at +20 enmity. Kamu's fTP should be increased to 3.0 and the blind effect needs to be very potent (think 5/5 blind II) and accurate enough to land on HNMs reliably.

Dragoon - Ryunohige
Boss

Summoner - Nirvana
Boss

Blue Mage - Tizona
Expiation isn't going to compete with Chant in melee situations so maybe turn this into the sword you use when you are using magical blu spells? Add a full spectrum +3 m.att/acc affinity.

Corsair - Death Penalty
As long as leaden salute keeps getting fTP increases I think this gun will turn out fine at 99.

Puppetmaster - Kenkonken
Boss

Dancer - Terpsichore
Working as intended. Continue fTP increses.

Scholar - Tupsimati
Needs to do something else. The only unique stat on it is the -20 enmity/weather thing. Pretty underwhelming. Maybe it could increase rapture and ebullience effectiveness by 50% making them +75% and +60% respectively.

Honestly for what they are I think mythics need less adjustment than most relics.

[Yinnyth]

My opinion is that all 3 classes of these weapons should maintain their individuality and not really cross boundaries. Empyreans are high damage weapons with ridiculously strong unique weaponskills(some deserve a small boost though, imo) and a 2x damage aftermath. If you want to change relics or mythics to be essentially that; strong weapons, even stronger WS and aftermath, then you're going about it wrong.

Relics are the strongest base weapons in the game, have an added effect, relic proc, a bonus to attack(1h) and/or acc(2h), and a relatively underwhelming unique WS with a relatively underwhelming aftermath. So to make relics more powerful without crossing boundaries, you should:
1. increase the frequency and power of relic procs
2. vastly increase the base damage on the weapons
3. vastly increase the power and frequency of the added effect
4. trigger the relic's aftermath when using any WS, not just the relic WS

Mythics are the weakest of the endgame weapons for sheer damage, but serve to broaden or deepen the utility of a job outside their ability to deal damage. So to fix mythics, one should:
1. Grant a unique spell and/or job ability to any player who wields the mythic
2. Broaden the weapons to enhance/augment even more job abilities and job traits(yes, meaning more than just freaking mijin boost)

[Byrth]

Well, I don't know enough about individual mythics to propose specific adjustments and they've gotten buffs on the way to 90 that we probably don't know about. However, I can copy-pasta the top of my relic post and adjust it for Mythics!

General/weapon stat solutions:
* Remove the offhand limitation from Mythics. (Mythics currently lose all their stats and enhancements besides damage and delay when offhanded)
* Allow Mythic Aftermath level 2 and 3 to overwrite themselves.
* Allow Relic and Mythic aftermaths to coexist.
* Apply Mythic aftermath to both hands. (You're weaponskilling to give yourself a buff. Why shouldn't that buff apply to both hands?)
* Allow TP Bonus equipment (like Moonshade earring) to affect aftermath duration.

[DebbieGibson]

First off, make them easier to get FFS.


If Vajra was the best weapon for thf, you would have it would you not? I don't think they need to be any easier to get(nor do I hope they will be made easier, something in this game has to stay difficult), they just need to be better.

[Rakshaka]

Nirvana (99):
Able to cast "Bahamut"

[Tigeriris]

But Heaven forbid they let Apoc break the haste cap, otherwise all the other DD's will be crying.

QFT

Thank you guys/gals for proving this.

On another note since the game has already been broken in "godly" ways, I think all relics/mythics should be boosted to some ridiculous amounts of broken(in their own ways) purely due to the amount of time/gil it takes to make.

[Chriscoffey]

QFT

Thank you guys/gals for proving this.

On another note since the game has already been broken in "godly" ways, I think all relics/mythics should be boosted to some ridiculous amounts of broken(in their own ways) purely due to the amount of time/gil it takes to make.
Hey if SE gives apocalypse its own haste and allows it to pass up haste cap i would gladly love them forever. I would LOVE to see other DD actually emo because they aren't the top tier DD anymore considering dark knight is so far behind with these critical hit WS now.

[Karbuncle]

Updated OP with a few suggestions i seen here. If i missed some tell me.

[Insaniac]

If Vajra was the best weapon for thf, you would have it would you not? I don't think they need to be any easier to get(nor do I hope they will be made easier, something in this game has to stay difficult), they just need to be better.
Depends on how much better you are talking about. Back when it was 90mil + quests I would have done a Varja if I had use for it but now it's 300mil plus quests. Relics used to be 0 quests plus ~250mil in currency vs. Quests + 90mil.. it kinda balanced out. Now you don't have to directly spend more than 50k gil on a relic and you never had to pay anything for an empyrean. Mythics need the same treatment.

[DebbieGibson]

Depends on how much better you are talking about. Back when it was 90mil + quests I would have done a Varja if I had use for it but now it's 300mil plus quests. Relics used to be 0 quests plus ~250mil in currency vs. Quests + 90mil.. it kinda balanced out. Now you don't have to directly spend more than 50k gil on a relic and you never had to pay anything for an empyrean. Mythics need the same treatment.

The best weapon in the game. If it was the best, many more people would be doing it. But yeah like you said it's very unbalanced between mythic:relic. I wish I had done mythic back when alex was 3k/ea :/

[Insaniac]

The best weapon in the game. If it was the best, many more people would be doing it. But yeah like you said it's very unbalanced between mythic:relic. I wish I had done mythic back when alex was 3k/ea :/ Not a lot of people have 300mil to spend. There would be far fewer relics if it weren't for sponsorship. Some mythics are the best or situationally the best weapons in the game and there are still very few of them due to the actual requirement that you spend 300mil. Even when they were 90mil there were very few of them being made. 30k alexandrite needs to be something a dedicated player can obtain within 6 months without spending millions and millions of gil. That's all I meant by making them easier to obtain. You can't really make a weapon powerful enough to reflect the current difficulty of obtaining a mythic over that of an empyrean.

[Byrth]

I've always thought that including the "Quests" portion of a Mythic when determining their price didn't make much sense. I know plenty of people that completed all the other requirements for a mythic ages ago, when they weren't even "serious" about going for a mythic and were just doing it with their friends. If you have a few people like that on your server buying Alexandrite, they aren't choosing between "A boat load of quests + 30000 Alexandrite" and "~17000 Ancient Currency + Fragment + Attestation", they're just choosing between 30000 Alexandrite and the relic requirements. This is why we've seen the price of Alexandrite increase so much (3k each to 8~10k each) over the last few years. People are done with the other requirements and just need Alexandrite.

Alexandrite supply is so low at the moment that there are enough people like that on each server to keep the price high. SE has said they won't directly increase drop rate or decrease the requirement, which leaves two options:
1) Make the second mythic quest "3 out of 4"
2) Increase supply by increasing the number of people who do Salvage.

If there was a huge boost to the Alexandrite supply, even if it was temporary, it could clear out all the people from the first paragraph and return the price to "A boatload of quests and 30k Alex" vs. "Relic Requirements" levels. SE has closed a lot of doors without opening any though.

[Insaniac]

Yeah a lot of the quests are things any player serious enough to do a mythic would probably already have done anyway. The only 2 I would be worried about are redoing all the assaults which is 50 days minimum and getting the 3 PW pops. Now that PW pops are gonna be 100% the later won't be nearly as bad.

I recall SE saying they wouldn't decrease the requirement but I don't recall seeing them say they wouldn't increase the supply. When did this happen? I assumed they would turn alexandrite into something you could solo/duo farm like dynamis currency.

[Byrth]

Yeah a lot of the quests are things any player serious enough to do a mythic would probably already have done anyway. The only 2 I would be worried about are redoing all the assaults which is 50 days minimum and getting the 3 PW pops. Now that PW pops are gonna be 100% the later won't be nearly as bad.

I recall SE saying they wouldn't decrease the requirement but I don't recall seeing them say they wouldn't increase the supply. When did this happen? I assumed they would turn alexandrite into something you could solo/duo farm like dynamis currency.

So far they have said:
1) Not increasing drop rates
2) Not reducing requirements
3) Not allowing you to enter Assaults or Salvage with fewer than 3 characters

The only real route they've left open to themselves is making Salvage popular again, which I don't see really happening to the extent that it used to be. Sky's temporary boost is already wearing off from the Synergy junk.

[Dallas]

The problem with Claustrum is the lack of anyone to defend it. What does it need? Probably refresh 16 by now. The WS was always a monster.

[Nynja]

If they're doing to keep enpoison on the Mandau, they could atleast up it to something relevant instead of equivalent to poison II, which any rdm can keep on the mob indefinitely instead of when the weapon decides to proc. The WS add effect crit rate would need to be bumped a little as well, cause I've tried parsing it, and its not even noticable.

Yoich could have its FTP on Namas raised a bit, since its still weaker than sidewinder, granted its hate free, its still a relic, its supposed to be powerful. Though, the way everyone plays, "hate free" means nothing when everyones at the enmity cap and any action pulls hate.

Across the board, Relics should probably have their 3x dmg rate bumped up from the present 5% to something like 30%, seeing as how Empyrians can theoretically ALWAYS have ODD up.

[uptempo]

Yep im all for relics haveing there odd bumped upto 25-30%.

[Chriscoffey]

I concur.. however.. wanting 90% apocalypse dark haste still makes my epic meter go to the top.

[Atomic_Skull]

So far they have said:
1) Not increasing drop rates
2) Not reducing requirements
3) Not allowing you to enter Assaults or Salvage with fewer than 3 characters

The only real route they've left open to themselves is making Salvage popular again, which I don't see really happening to the extent that it used to be. Sky's temporary boost is already wearing off from the Synergy junk.

However they are making the ZNM king's trophies a 100% drop next update.

[Byrth]

However they are making the ZNM king's trophies a 100% drop next update.

Yeah! I'm excited about that, lol. We'd actually expect that to increase the price of Alexandrite though.

[Nynja]

You are probably not aware of this but the added effect on relics is related to the items the goblin requests to make the first stage. For example he asks you for a canterella (a very potent poison made from an orc liver) on the first stage of Mandau. Changing the added effects wouldn't really make sense in relation to the quest storyline if it were changed to some other random effect.

Yeah, I'm sorry for necroing, but I remembered this post, and just wanted to point out how stupid it is:

Relic Knuckles, Koh-I-Noor, Griffon Leather, Adaman Sheet
How is that at all related to "Enhances counter"?

Relic Sword, Koh-I-Noor, Orichalcum Chain, Cermet Chunk
How is that at all related to "Damage varies with current HP"?

Relic Blade, Griffon Leather, Adaman Ingot, Platinum Ingot
Crit hit rate?

Relic Axe, Angel Skin, Chronos Tooth, Feather Collar +1
add effect choke? (duh the collar)

Relic Bhuj, Wootz Ingot, Damascus Ingot, Ancient Lumber
Impair evasion?

Relic Scythe, Mammoth Tusk, Manticore Leather, Rainbow Obi
Add: Blind?

Relic Lance, Lancewood Lumber, Orichalcum Ingot, Arachne Thread
Defence down?

Ihintanto. Relic Steel. Tarasque Skin. Twinthread
Paralyze? Lizard and Crawler mobs have no paralysis methods in their arsenal

Ito, Relic Steel, Siren's Macrame, Tama-Hagane
Attack Down?

Relic Maul, Wootz Ingot, Platinum Ingot, Rainbow Cloth
MP recovery?

Relic Staff, Lancewood Lumber, Pigeon's Blood Ruby, Urushi
Dispel?

Gun/Bow/Horn dont really have any add effects, just extra stats.


The only add effect that relates to the items given in stage 1 is on dagger...which means theres no correlation whatsoever.

[Modoru]

I would watch the Opera on a daily basis.

What's wrong with the Opera? :C

[Mirage]

Maybe the catastrophe haste could be allowed to break the haste cap if the special catastrophe cap was only something like 82 to 84%