Bring back the OG CoP style content

[Schultz]

The game isn't a challenge anymore. My fondest memories of the game was Friday nights sitting around with a group of RL friends doing CoP missions. The rest of the week was dedicated to doing pre-req missions/cut scenes. I have some memories interwoven with the great storyline that define the magnificence of this game.

I can still remember dumping out on the O/U fight with 1 gil Mistmelts in our Bazaar. Oh how we RR'd instantly and took them out as fast as we could. It would have been amusing to watch.

So yeah bring back difficulty to the game. If you're worried about casuals that are unable to do high end content, make it so that you can opt into HQ fights for better rewards, or atleast a chance of a better reward and make the fights repeatable until you move onto the next mission.

Some of us want to be challenged, and in my history of playing FF games, I've always opted for a challenge. Fighting Ultimecia with a Lv37 Squall (and the others under that) by spamming Holy Wars, Doom Train and Eden for 3 hours only to finish the game at 2AM and sit in awe as the credits roll. That is what a FF game is all about, the difficult, the pain, the relief when you finally do it. If I wanted to be spoonfed rewards, I'd play WoW.

[Teakwood]

Go through Abyssea getting kills on all the zonebosses in low-man parties without using any Brew. Not allowed to use Brew on Shinryu, either. Good luck shouting in Jeuno for people to help you!

On a more serious note, I get where you're coming from. I do however think that everyone has a rosy-tinted nostalgic memory of CoP. For every "oh the good old days" story someone can tell there are at least five or six stories of even just finding a competent /party/ for a CoP mission, let alone doing the fight, very much akin to putting a sensitive body part in the frame of a door and then slamming the door hard. I -am- looking forward to 90-99 content, and I'm hoping it'll be rewarding enough that people will do it despite the difficulty, and I'm hoping it's a bit tougher.

Right now, though, I'm playing the game with a few newbie friends I've finally got playing the game, and I really enjoy being able to low-man the old content, and blitz them through an excellent storyline to keep their interest in the game, rather than tell them "well, wait a few months and hit max level and maybe we'll be able to beat this if we can sit in Jeuno for nine hours shouting until we get a party for this".

[Draylo]

I agree but I generally don't want to engage in these debates anymore. I find there are too many casuals that want a game just like Hello Kitty online. CoP missions were one of the fondest memories I've had in this game. There was always a sense of accomplishment when you got things done in XI. That feeling is gone and seems more like mainstream MMO's where you get things really fast :/

[Kyrial]

Right now, though, I'm playing the game with a few newbie friends I've finally got playing the game, and I really enjoy being able to low-man the old content, and blitz them through an excellent storyline to keep their interest in the game, rather than tell them "well, wait a few months and hit max level and maybe we'll be able to beat this if we can sit in Jeuno for nine hours shouting until we get a party for this".

This. CoP was a great story, but I *HATED* the difficulty. I just wanted to watch the story. Missions are without question my favorite part of the game. A little challenge is fine, but trying to get CoP done was like trying to pull teeth... with your bare hands. Admittedly, a hefty portion of the challenge was actually getting people to do it with you, and then getting lucky enough that they didn't suck. Thankfully, after CoP I had a job at 75 (and more jobs as time went on), and was able to do the missions after that as they came out, with the large groups of others doing the same. Even so, there were still times that didn't work, and it is usually still hard to find groups to do missions with, even when they are easy (easy enough for a group, but not for solo obviously). Challenge just makes it all the more challenging to find groups, as well.

Though, personally, I've never been much of a fan of challenge. The most challenge I want is "okay, we lost this time, but we've totally got it next time". Not "Damn, we've lost ten times to this, and we're still no closer than we were on our first attempt, because the only way to win is to be lucky." (I'm looking at you, pre-nerf Snoll Tzar. >_>) I suppose it's just a matter of perspective. Some win a fight easily, and think "damn, that was too easy." I win a fight my first try, and I think "Hell yes, we're awesome." :P

[Dracoth]

1/51 on U/O, over 2.5 mil in gil spent on meds both on myself and on those who were "helping" me do the fight, and I still remember the feeling of "Oh my hell, we finally beat it!" I then spent the next year pretending that my friends didn't need the fight. The LS I joined after I got Sea helped them plenty, but I still shudder at the horror that was U/O.

Now, it's a total cake walk. And, there's nothing better for me than the cathartic feel of plowing Omega while on BLU at 90. I love being able to help new people get things done. We've run 14 people through CoP in my LS now over the last two months and it's been great. Some of them are people that have played for ever and never had any luck finding a good group and are amazed at how fun the story line is.

I do agree, however, that it would be fun if SE added in an option of doing it the hard way. Make it similar to DM in the sense that the fights are harder but that they also give a reward that's worth working for. Make it so that it can be repeated in a similar fashion as well and that either version will allow progress on the storyline, although the repeated fight could be done by anyone on or past that mission. This would give plenty of people a reason to participate and work with those going through as well as allowing those who just want the storyline done to get through it quickly.

[Meyi]

I hated CoP the way it was. I like it the way it is now.

And yes, I completed it the first time on my first character the old fashioned way. I didn't pay attention to the cutscenes and I was miserable. Death after death, and hours wasted doing pointless leg work.

I had a blast soloing it. It was a challenge, doing it all by my taru black mage self! If you think it's too easy now, then try to solo the Airship fight or something. -smiles-

[Septimus]

No, no, a thousand times no.

It is hard enough to get anyone to care about missions these days- my second character is two fights from a Moonshade Earring but no one is close to finishing them and no one wants to bother to redo them, and these missions aren't even hard. This was pretty much the same thing when I had to do CoP missions for him, even after they were nerfed (but before they were really nerfed and they added XP), no one wanted to bother because they remembered the nightmare of doing them the first time. Specific job set ups, enfeebling items that you had to go out and farm yourself, trudging through level-capped areas with true-sight mobs; that is artificial difficulty at its highest.

I was lucky when it came to CoP missions, I had a linkshell that had a stated goal of doing them and was full of competent people. We were in sea on day one, and boy was it disappointing. We did jailers on day one, and boy was it disappointing. Half of my linkshell quit for WoW directly because of CoP, so maybe all of this is why I don't have the rose-colored glasses that seems to accompany reminiscing about the "good-old days" of CoP. (That, and I am sure a lot of people with these very fond memories did the missions after a few nerfs.)

So yeah, missions are fine the way they are. You want difficulty, try to solo them on a level 60 job.

[Gwynplaine]

I think there's good but conflicting reasons why CoP divides people into loving or hating it so intensely. And that depends upon what is considered a "challenge". CoP certainly WAS a challenge, but for some good and some bad reasons. Here's my opinion of how the "challenge" aspect splits up into proper or improper:

A good means of creating a challenge and fun works to bring a unique angle to the gameplay that makes you think and adjust to new strategies. Examples of this could be the airship fight itself, one of the most epic battles ever in FFXI. Or even just NM's like Warbler or Bloodeye Vileberry.

A bad way of creating a hassle that amounts to an artificial challenge are things like all those obnoxious farmed items CoP required. It was difficult enough forming a proper party that could win. Then on top of that you had to hug walls or risk wasting more time (the whole process was a ticking clock before your party members "had to go"). Then get lucky rolling the dice for the crap to drop for you. Then go back etc.

And requiring gimmicky junk that wasted your time, like having to trade a farmed key to the Movolopolis door and THEN having to walk ALL the way back to get cutscenes, then return. Is not a challenge, it is a run-around time sink. Just like arbitrary game day or next day waits. They only serve to make stupid people feel like something that takes longer equals something that was more worthwhile, difficult, or had more put into it.

So I'm all for a challenge if that means fun and unique battles or puzzles. But Square can keep its masochistic, time wasting, artificial "challenge" in the form of hassling you.

[Retsujo]

I absolutely love a challenge, and love even more the reward of continuing story for completing the challenge. I don't mind running around for cutscenes (though WotG had even me complaining about some parts). Wings of the Goddess missions are a pretty good challenge towards the end even at Lv90. Though the reward wasn't anything to boast about.

I also have a feeling that we're going to be seeing a decent sized expansion soon, not just a piddley little add-on scenario or three. That's just a feeling I have, though.

[Zarchery]

No, no, a thousand times no.

I get where you're coming from, but I think the OP was suggesting the old-school mission style would be optional, and furthermore provide some new material reward. This would be pretty easy to pull off. Make it possible to inflict a level cap when you start the fight (like with Assault), and make the fight repeatable with, say, a key item. I can see it being a lot like the Bahamut fight, where you have one semi-easy quest fight which provides no reward except advancement of the story, and another which is repeatable and provides material rewards, but also the NM is stronger.

[Kraggy]

My fondest memories of the game was Friday nights sitting around with a group of RL friends doing CoP missions. The rest of the week was dedicated to doing pre-req missions/cut scenes
Those like you (and I) who had a static for CoP never had to experience what it was like for the very large number who didn't: 'large number' as per SE's admission some years after CoP was released that only 15% of the player-base had actually managed to complete it.

Your 'challenge' was many peoples' impossibility.

For me too, CoP was the highlight of my FFXI 'career' (and always will be), but I'm not nostalgic for the mechanics that meant the majority of players were unable (for whatever reason) to take part in it.

[Kyrial]

Oh, I had statics for CoP... yes, plural... but because people would get so discouraged by the missions, they'd end up breaking up, so I got to the point I had the three paths part in chapter 5 all done except for Snoll through a mix of statics that broke up and pickup groups, before finally getting a static that was on Promy-Vahzl, and helping them catch up to me before finally finishing the missions. Even so, it was still a nightmare getting the missions actually done, and even I, one who usually loves helping people with missions I've already done, didn't want to help with some CoP missions, simply because they were such a nightmare the first time. Pre-level cap removal, that is. Now I would jump at the opportunity to help people with CoP, but no one needs it anymore. :/

[chubrocka]

Without typing a book like most have...... Yes please Makers!! bring back something that older players miss.... We need the grinding challenge we miss. Im not trying to take away from the new direction. Just please keep some of the old ways like level caps. The portion of relying on others to further your own play.. Bring us back long missions to do that dont focus on leveling... soloeing is grand an all but whats the use if everyone runs around like mini gods now.. Damn some of the gear you see now worn by EVERYONE was something we wished for. Please dont turn this into anymore WoW. Thank you for reading.

[Sureal]

Without typing a book like most have...... Yes please Makers!! bring back something that older players miss.... We need the grinding challenge we miss. Im not trying to take away from the new direction. Just please keep some of the old ways like level caps. The portion of relying on others to further your own play.. Bring us back long missions to do that dont focus on leveling... soloeing is grand an all but whats the use if everyone runs around like mini gods now.. Damn some of the gear you see now worn by EVERYONE was something we wished for. Please dont turn this into anymore WoW. Thank you for reading.

you could also just slam your head into a wall repeatedly, will give the same effect, except that the rest of us will no longer have to deal with you or the stupid "challenges" that SE put in front of us way back when

[chubrocka]

you could also just slam your head into a wall repeatedly, will give the same effect, except that the rest of us will no longer have to deal with you or the stupid "challenges" that SE put in front of us way back when

Lets hope that SE also takes out the Flamers like this one here.. I guess there will alwyas be the people like this???

[Sureal]

been rocking ffxi for 8 years, havent gotten rid of me yet, and if you think im bad you must be new on the internet

[Windycheeks]

Maybe I missed something but from what I can see, the reason for the change in CoP is for the story in Abyssea. The Dev. team, in from what I gather, wanted people who didn't want to do the Hard Missions (and they were very very hard with Pickups and even statics) to be able to finish them to fully enjoy the story behind Abyssea.... Now weither it was a good idea to "dumb down" Classic gameplay is up for debate but I remember doing old school CoP when it was released and loved it. Did so many Promys for our Guild, getting everyone up to square....that I can walk through the places with my eyes closed.... I like the new ways and I like the old ways of playing. But I will say this, With the addition of the newer Jobs with the Expansions since CoP the missions were not THAT hard anymore... And like someone said before... MMO's have followed in the footsteps of WoW by making things easier for the casual player, "But I want good gear too its not fair that he can have it because he worked hard for it...GIVE IT TO ME TOO!! I don't wanna work!" But I'm rambling...lol


edit: I didn't Quit FFXI before for the Quests or Missions.... I quit because I wanted to do the Quests and Missions but it took be a whole week to get half a level... I olny came back after they lowered the amount of XP to get leveled... I mean seriously 1mil exp for one level at 300 per kill if you're lucky.... Thats insane

[Luvbunny]

All SE has to do is to revamp some of these BCNMs to become slightly more challenging with a better rewards. What sets CoP apart is the bcnms, some are a bit retarded on challenge, others are just about right. They can make a bcnms based on CoP missions with tweaked mobs on par to lvl 90s, with a better rewards. Though you will see soon that the majority of players detest this type of artificial difficulty :P

[Laraul]

I remember getting a tell out of nowhere asking for assistance with the airship fight.

"Sure," I responded. "We will need more people though... do you know anyone that can help? Like anyone from your Linkshell"

"I'm doing this for my Sea Linkshell..."

"You are in a Sea Linkshell w/o Sea access yourself? Well it should be full of people that are available to help. I'm surprised you even needed to ask me."

"They won't help me. They tell me that I have to find people and do it myself. They don't want to do the missions again."

"..."

[Zinato]

Just my opinion, but I see alot of people both for and against the idea of a "challenge". I'll start by saying I do have fond memories of the CoP fights, by far my favorite storyline. Additionally I had my share of trouble getting help and even then things such as the airship fight I went 1/10. (please note this was early 2010 so post nerf) No, I didnt like the time I needed to find people to help but the actual fights/zones were more memorable for the diffuculty, and more so the feeling of relief/accomplishment for completion, as though I earned my cutscenes.
Now, do I think everyone feels the same, no I dont. Based on that my suggestion is this, offer the option via a message upon zone in, npc, item, etc. to cap off the areas/fights to what they were. This gives people from both camps of thought what they want. Need a challenge go in a capped version. Having trouble finding a group solo the uncapped version. Now ive heard things said like just level sync but, it can be a pain to find someone of the right job and level to sync to in addition to the rest of the party. No matter what SE does some group with be unhappy unless both options are avalible on past and future content. Just a thought.

[Luvbunny]

No one in their right mind would love to redo the CoP missions pre-nerf, ever again, let alone over and over and over to help others. Often that means 3-5 hours wasted on farming or getting stuffs ready, and could easily take 8 hours if you have to keep redoing the bcnms due to wiped. A lot of the challenges are mostly artificials, and with the majority of the players learning their jobs from the normal xp party, meaning they have almost 0 experience how to deal with bcnms type battle, the battles often drags on and on. The way things now are better. New players can easily do all the missions since lvl cap is lifted, and you no longer need jobs xyz to win it. CoP was a bad experiment, and one of the worst expansion of FFXI. ToAU and Abbysea are the two best expansion, done by the same team. The game designer who created CoP is the same person who designed FFXIV, he got what he deserved, a demotion and public firing. No saving face for him...

[Sureal]

i keep getting the feeling that people are remembering the good storyline (which CoP DID have, was great) and completely forgetting all the bs they had to go through for these cutscenes

that or they did the fights after all the nerfs and have absolutely no idea what any of us are talking about when we say these fights were hard as hell, im gonna go with number 2 on this one


edit: actually i think i am right on number 2 here, as i have yet to see anyone mention all the "fun" it was to buy 8 different sets of gear to do all these fights, then buy others gear cause they didnt want to buy it just to help you, and all the meds and everything else you needed JUST TO GET TO THE BCNM

[Azurae]

I disagree, i spent 3 years doing cop, mainly as no-one would help nor finding any decent enough players. I for one is thankful to SE for rejigging it, I still needed help inn some parts but only one or two people, we four maned the last boss.
only downside still, no way of me getting that etheral earring because no one is willing still to help on bahamut, plus with the abyssea add ons there are many greedy people only interested in themselves instead of helping others so they can jin in and make things easier.

[Azurae]

No one in their right mind would love to redo the CoP missions pre-nerf, ever again, let alone over and over and over to help others. Often that means 3-5 hours wasted on farming or getting stuffs ready, and could easily take 8 hours if you have to keep redoing the bcnms due to wiped. A lot of the challenges are mostly artificials, and with the majority of the players learning their jobs from the normal xp party, meaning they have almost 0 experience how to deal with bcnms type battle, the battles often drags on and on. The way things now are better. New players can easily do all the missions since lvl cap is lifted, and you no longer need jobs xyz to win it. CoP was a bad experiment, and one of the worst expansion of FFXI. ToAU and Abbysea are the two best expansion, done by the same team. The game designer who created CoP is the same person who designed FFXIV, he got what he deserved, a demotion and public firing. No saving face for him...
loved this comment, brilliant, couldnt of agreed anymore. :)

[Necrose99]

Well They Could Bring Back The Orignial CoP alongide the NOW COP

just if you win You might get some better Bonus items , But I know of storries of DEM , It took about 5 trips , I know of ppl whom wiped on 20 runs with sveral compentint Full Allince parties some doing ENM's on way up or Parites taking turns once at the top for the Boss.

They could give A Choice upppon Entering the Zone

CoP Clasic
or Curent

Boss Fight CoP Clasic ...

Boss now Fight.

My ownly cop Grip ATM is the TOR climb as no matter how great of Care I slip off at the same spot . sometimes i wish the bottom ledge leading to the final climb was a bit less slippery.

Adding a few Rewards would be a niceity.

That way Everyone can relive the nostaligia or just gt through COP in one peice.

The Horror stories of Diablos allone when alliances fell to doom on the tiles to the hungry Hungry diremites bellow , just sent shrills and chills down my spine, just making me wana hurry up and run into that fight as now i can get a few 90's chums from the ls and go pawn him soon as my glitched tor climb is done.

Yeah I wana fall , in Clasic Diablos fight in utter humilation 20 or so times alongside some the top players on the server .... uhmm DUH hell no .

some ppl say the tor climb is times glitched , need to zone out and back in and retry it , like the airship glitch/es ..... ?


anycase for some ppl Pain and humilation should be thier choise and privlage if it makes them feal more Ubber.

I had to expend quite alont of gils to Beat Dem Mea, Holla , heck could'a bought phalanx at 30k before it jumped to 400k-1 million gill (2011 Siren) , but the update that eased COP came 3 years after I beat em

But for Crafting it was a pain cuase to Make X with Photo Anima one had to "Help" In the clasical COP to get them , Wich for Warp Cudgels and the Anima depended like Re-raise earings etc only served to keep the price WAY UP.

[Henihhi]

I really enjoyed the CoP expansion, but i was lucky enough to do it when it came out with people who knew their stuff. I actually had fun with it before SE decided to nerf everything to please the masses. ToAU was a joke, one shotted everything as soon as it was released. I quit shortly after the first update to WotG and wasn't really too fond of it, but i started doing the missions again recently and the tail end of it is pretty decent- besides the whole running all over zones back and forth just for cut scenes part. And i actually did redo a lot of the CoP missions pre-nerf for friends and people in my old linkshell lol- maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment. Come to think of it, I haven't gone into a CoP mission since the nerf lol.

[Luvbunny]

Let's not forget the three mini add ons, and how much "FUN" it is to do them... ToAU and WoTG are the two best missions when it comes to game design, it lets you do it fast and less of a running around and killing gazilion mobs for the key items. If you want challenge, then do both missions with 1-3 people, unless you have certain jobs, it can be challenging and fun to an extend. Yes CoP has good story and in a way, it makes you feel like you are playing the offline FFXI but now you are playing it online and with 5 other people. It is a very interesting idea but somewhat fail in implementation pre-nerf. I am glad the game is moving in the "faster pace" direction though. Granted it is not the same game as in 2003 but I think this is for the better. Now you have a lot more options and a lot of things to do as lvl 90s, solo or in a smaller group. Once SE adjust the older contents to be comparable with Abyssea, then the game would be perfect.

[chubrocka]

I think what i miss is the long mission base. EXP and abby; ya ok. Bring back an expansion that has us doing months of it with a new story and so on.. That would be fun.. Im not saying make it hard as the capped OG's were, just make it fun and something else to do. A lot of people i play with in game enjoyed the bond we made doing them together, we chatted in LS then or party chat. We got to know each other. With abby in play no one talks anymore. LS's have turned more cold.. We need the missions back isThanks for reading

[Jerynh]

Yes, I failed promys 5-6 times when I went through them. But man... How it felt when I beat them... This game can't match that feeling anymore.

[chubrocka]

Yes, I failed promys 5-6 times when I went through them. But man... How it felt when I beat them... This game can't match that feeling anymore.

HAHA there it is again!!!!! GOD there are and were great memories!!!!

[Zarchery]

Let's not forget the three mini add ons, and how much "FUN" it is to do them... ToAU and WoTG are the two best missions when it comes to game design, it lets you do it fast and less of a running around and killing gazilion mobs for the key items. If you want challenge, then do both missions with 1-3 people, unless you have certain jobs, it can be challenging and fun to an extend. Yes CoP has good story and in a way, it makes you feel like you are playing the offline FFXI but now you are playing it online and with 5 other people. It is a very interesting idea but somewhat fail in implementation pre-nerf. I am glad the game is moving in the "faster pace" direction though. Granted it is not the same game as in 2003 but I think this is for the better. Now you have a lot more options and a lot of things to do as lvl 90s, solo or in a smaller group. Once SE adjust the older contents to be comparable with Abyssea, then the game would be perfect.

I enjoy the unbridled hubris that you seem to believe that you are the sole arbiter of what constitutes fun, rather than it being a subjective opinion.

Critics keep strawmanning, saying "Don't make CoP hard again, it's unfair to players who haven't finished it!" Except NOBODY is suggesting that. The suggestion is clearly "Make a classic, level capped version OPTIONAL and with material rewards to entice players."

I did CoP back in 2006 with a static group. Though it was challenging, and stressful at times (Airship fight wasn't so bad, but Snoll Tzar took 7 tries to get two wins for 9 people, and I had a bit of a nervous breakdown once after losing the Tenzen fight). Still, it was the most fun I've ever had in my years of playing the game. Because we couldn't just coast through. We needed 6 people, all fighting at the top of their game, displaying top notch teamwork. Nothing before or since has fulfilled me that much. But listening to some of the critics, you would think that I was deluding myself, and that my opinion is wrong.

Look, I am glad they removed the level caps. I want this beautiful story and the beauty of Al'Taieu to be open to anyone, not just those lucky enough to have connections. But how would it hurt to allow people to repeat these old fights, optionally, for fun and valuable prizes?

[Dazusu]

God forbid we get a challenge. People might start jumping off buildings in despair.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

There's no need to go back and recap something that has already been uncapped and that very few if any still d0 to begin with.

[Septimus]

There's no need to go back and recap something that has already been uncapped and that very few if any still d0 to begin with.

No no. What they need to do is take away the Rajas, Tamas, and Sattva Rings of every person who completed CoP after they got rid of XP loss on the missions so that my ring will be special! If you didn't get your CoP ring back when you lost goo-gobs of XP doing them, then it really doesn't count as the full CoP experience, and we shouldn't reward people for that.

[azjazo]

Erm.... so.... you want CoP to be "challenging" again cuz you wanna do them again I hope? cuz, seems to me like you guys already beaten CoP so, why ask for a change on a content you are not touching??

Just cuz you no longer feel special for finishing it??? or you are jelous of people getting it done without sitting in Jeuno for 6+ hours???

I really dont see the problem, and this extends to all complains on all topics of the "easy button" if you want to do them the hard way be my guest, go form a party and sync to some person with the adecuate level to be challenging... I see it like the megaman 10 easy mode, let people enjoy the game on "easy mode" and you can put challenges for yourselve as you see fit. What merit is to finish Ikaruga on superhard expert xtreeeeeeme other than brag about your high score? the game is enjoyable regardless of dificulty, if its to easy for you you can create artificial challenge.

So, what your complains will be then?? HLN (high level noobs)? CoP being hard wont make HLN suck less, they just wond do it and it will be just jerkish to not let someone paying as much money as you elite players, enjoy game content and plot.

I really really dont see where is the problem other than people just like to nostalgia all over their cherised hard missions and grind days.... you can make friends regardless of dificulty, and its not like they are giving the things away, just made them more accesible.

[Septimus]

Erm.... so.... you want CoP to be "challenging" again cuz you wanna do them again I hope? cuz, seems to me like you guys already beaten CoP so, why ask for a change on a content you are not touching??

Just cuz you no longer feel special for finishing it??? or you are jelous of people getting it done without sitting in Jeuno for 6+ hours???

I really dont see the problem, and this extends to all complains on all topics of the "easy button" if you want to do them the hard way be my guest, go form a party and sync to some person with the adecuate level to be challenging... I see it like the megaman 10 easy mode, let people enjoy the game on "easy mode" and you can put challenges for yourselve as you see fit. What merit is to finish Ikaruga on superhard expert xtreeeeeeme other than brag about your high score? the game is enjoyable regardless of dificulty, if its to easy for you you can create artificial challenge.

So, what your complains will be then?? HLN (high level noobs)? CoP being hard wont make HLN suck less, they just wond do it and it will be just jerkish to not let someone paying as much money as you elite players, enjoy game content and plot.

I really really dont see where is the problem other than people just like to nostalgia all over their cherised hard missions and grind days.... you can make friends regardless of dificulty, and its not like they are giving the things away, just made them more accesible.

In case it didn't come off as so, my comment was completely facetious. I utterly despise CoP and view it as the darkest period of FFXI's history. It was an era of false challenge, instead of utilizing genuine difficulty, they packed the expansion full of artificial difficulty in the form of level caps, dungeon crawls full of true sight monsters, gimmicky fights requiring specific job set ups, random real life day waits, and enfeebling items. And I was a lucky person who had a linkshell that actually did CoP missions, I couldn't imagine trying to do the unnerfed battles with pick up parties. It is hard enough to find enough people to do the last few WotG missions and they can't even hold a candle to old-school CoP.

My point is that I think a lot of people who want "OG CoP style content" honestly have no clue what that really means. Because that doesn't mean missions after nerfs, that means Promyvions on the first day that they were released, and no sane person wants that nonsense.

[Malamasala]

I still want three modes of doing missions.

A) Cutscenes only. You just get a "skip" option at each fight so you can just enjoy the story.
B) Normal. Like now.
C) Hard. More level caps, more fetch quests, shorter BC time, etc.

That way we can all enjoy the game the way we want to. I personally enjoy the story, but hate that it takes 6 months per BCNM just because everyone is always busy and can't spend 40 minutes helping with missions.

Of course I'm not quite trying my fullest. I've yet to set up dates and times and say "If enough show up at this time, we'll do this and that". I usually just log on and ask if people are free to help a quickie.

[Schultz]

ToAU was trash. I'm sorry but I had more fun leveling BRD from 1-75 solo (note, this did not happen, but it still would have been more fun). There was no real "challenge", and I'm sorry to all those that struggled through the missions, but semi-decent party can finish those missions.

WoTG I can't talk about much because I was scared so much due to the immense let down that was ToAU. I've only gone so far solo, and it hasn't been a challenge either. Sure there's probably some parts that I might have trouble solo'ing, but that's what friends are for.

In my eyes, SE sold out. Back in the day you used to talk at school about your spending X weeks chocobo breeding, or how you beat X Weapon with some bizarre strategy that took you 3 hours. FF games have always been about challenges, if they wanted to give you the end boss nicely wrapped, they'd make a game like... oh wait they did make FFXIII.

Anyhow what I was saying is that they don't have to stop making it easy, just give us the option to pick the harder path with better rewards.

[Ryozen]

The game isn't a challenge anymore... ...So yeah bring back difficulty to the game. If you're worried about casuals that are unable to do high end content, make it so that you can opt into HQ fights... ...Some of us want to be challenged, and in my history of playing FF games, I've always opted for a challenge.
Anyhow what I was saying is that they don't have to stop making it easy, just give us the option to pick the harder path
They've done this for Abyssea. If it's too 'easy mode' for you, try it again without cruor buffs and atma. You won't get better rewards, but the difficulty that you so desire is really the reward you're after, isn't it?

[Schultz]

Interesting point.

[Zaknafein]

No the reward should be slightly better gear so you can tell the difference, or a the very least a different model with the same stats. For instance right now the above average players are wearing the same gear as people who just xp'd every job to 90, and had enough cruor to brew everything they come into contact with. If you don't want any difficulty involved with the game you have no right to expect to wear the same gear as people who actually have a clue how to play. As for the "just kill stuff w/o cruor buffs" that is not what people are talking about. They want something..anything in this game to have meaning again. Something to strive for. Accomplishments they can be proud of achieving.

[Ryozen]

You speak as if every player in the game is walking around in AF3+2 and Empyrean weapons. Dunno which server you're on, but that's certainly not the case on Quetzalcoatl. I come across poorly-skilled players in poor gear pretty frequently.

So, what you're saying is that it's not a matter of challenge, it's a matter of other people knowing that you're above average? E-peen less?

[Teraniku]

I remember getting a tell out of nowhere asking for assistance with the airship fight.

"Sure," I responded. "We will need more people though... do you know anyone that can help? Like anyone from your Linkshell"

"I'm doing this for my Sea Linkshell..."

"You are in a Sea Linkshell w/o Sea access yourself? Well it should be full of people that are available to help. I'm surprised you even needed to ask me."

"They won't help me. They tell me that I have to find people and do it myself. They don't want to do the missions again."

"..."

My biggest problem with helping others out, was they wanted you to do everything for them. Farming for anima's, Hippy feathers and all that. Especially a random drive by CoP shout in jeuno or Whitegate.
That's when I changed to only helping friends out on CoP and got a few through some of the missions.

[scaevola]

if you are waxing nostalgic about a video game you beat years ago whose centerpiece was a storyline that was objectively mediocre, well, i'm not going to say you're wrong but i will say i definitely value your opinions less than i would have before finding that out

see, you know how square admitted only 15% of people had finished CoP? well, the reason why that was was not that it was hard. the reason is that most people with healthy ideas about value and time don't relish the idea of running around for hours on end to fight a boss they may or may not beat (failure means restarting, megalolz), the reward for which is a couple of boring cutscenes featuring an elf girl in hotpants speaking in contractions because she is so zany*

this is not to say it is inherently wrong to see value in investing time in something you enjoy. however, in CoP's case, the sliding scale of investment vs. payoff (as a distinct concept from reward, mind you) was pushed so far to the stupid that 85% of a subset of people who pay $15 a month to run around with elves and catgirls decided it was lame and gave it the finger

think about that








*note: this also applies to wotg, pretty much word for word

[Shibayama]

My response to this whole "FFXI isn't challenging like it used to be!" debate.

http://www.hejibits.com/comics/roommate-comics/roommate-comics-15/

I feel like the people clamoring for the "good old days of hair pulling FFXI" Where getting good pieces of gear meant waiting around for hours for a spawn/waiting in line for months for your chance to lot on something because it made that piece feel more valuable. Sure I'll admit it felt *so* nice to finally get access to sea and I wished that WoTG's endgame content had to be earned over time, or that it was worth doing to a majority of players. But I also hated having to micro-manage my game time so that it worked with 5 other people in order to get missions done - lost way too much sleep over that

Also this whole "noobs who can brew have the same gear as us hardcore players!" is rediculous. You wont see some wet-behind-the-ears noob walking around in full magian +2's because getting gear is sooooo easy. You may as well say you're a more skilled player because *back in my day there were no moogles in selbina* - dosn't make you a better player just means you were good at playing with the poorly designed system of the time. Just because there aren't any of the stupid blockades meant to stymie your progress towards getting the good gear anymore dosn't mean the game isn't still difficult or that you're a better player because you can wait around for hours for Tiamat to pop. Sorry that yer Epona's ring doesn't make you a special snowflake like your old D-ring did. The days of people's skill being determined by what gear you have are over and it couldn't have come soon enough.

[Akutenshi]

I'm glad that they made COP a bit easier. It would give the chance for people that didn't see or do them to experience it. I do feel it does take away from the people that did struggle back in the day, but that's just how the flow of the game (most games) will eventually go. I'd like to see something in the future that say for new content, you could be able to low man or make things not super difficult as it was in COP, but if people wanted the challenge, they could select a harder version or mode and say the items that can drop will be say +2 or something. Say the regular version would be just regular with an option to update it to +1 through various means, but give people that want a real challenge to do the hardest version and just the fully upgraded version to show their hard work and commitment. The system for upgrading things in Abyssea is okay I guess, I'm mostly just talking about stuff outside of there or stuff like quests and future missions etc.

[Akizuki]

the harder the thing is the more I want it!
like every one else i spent days shouting and looking for people to help, but I REALLY love it and I really enjoy it and i would love to do CoP mission the old style over and over again and wish there was an option to do it.

so ppl who want it easy can have it their way.
while us who enjoys a good hard challenges enjoy the game as well! =)

[Kuwabaraone]

Meh, better than RoZ (Aside from the Tonberry Fight) anyways. Personally, I saw CoP as an introduction to 'Endgame' concepts: Gathering of members, strategy and planning, and even getting key items needed for victory. Only real downside to CoP is its limiting of job usage. Yes, ANY JOB can clear CoP but certain ones stood out more than others. I didn't mind the run around so much as it brought a lot of answers to questions and also tied in a great deal of Vana'diel's history (further tested in WotG). And yes, the 'wall-hugging' was simply due to the fact that very few ppl got the maps to those places...ah, still remember taking 8 hours in doing 8-2 with just me(BLM), a NIN and a RDM with no map and no 'Fresh (well, the RDM didn't use 'Fresh on me much) and STILL win it. THAT was a challenge. If anything, bring back the level caps. Let's see how much the 'Endgame Elites' can handle a NM on their jobs with lower level stats. Keep the areas uncapped, but the battles must remain capped (they've done this already, but it's just not enough).

KB1

[Cabalabob]

I was thinking about CoP missions, i like how i, as a lvl 90, can one shot the promy bosses for low level friends who just want to get through the missions for their rajas ring.

but there are also people who want to do the fights properly, like doing the promies at lvl 30.

My idea is to add something similar to what they did with how you can choose a level cap for assault missions. make it so that the player engaging the battlefield can choose to instate the level cap or not. E.G. the player can choose wether to limit promies down to lvl 30 or just leave the battlefield uncapped.

battlefields done under the level cap should also give a reward so that even players who have already completed the missions have an incentive to help new players who want to do it properly. I was thinking for rewards possibly something similar to prime avatar fight rewards, you can choose a rare/exclusive piece of equipment, gil or double the exp gained from the fight.

This would also be a good oportunity to make the ducal guard ring reobtainable, make it so that on first completion you get the ring AND a reward and upon repeating the mission the ring could be one of the rewards. I dunno if there is a reason the ducal guard ring isn't reobtainable but with all the new content based in jeuno like abyssea and trial of the magian moogles, i really miss that ring...

[Carth]

battlefields done under the level cap should also give a reward so that even players who have already completed the missions have an incentive to help new players who want to do it properly.
This is extremely oxymoronic.

[Karbuncle]

After skimming a lot, Did anyone bring up the reason CoP was probably considered "Hard" is because more than 80% of it was done under a Level cap of 30, 40, or 60?

Also, If you want a Challenge, a good one is trying anything in Abyssea with a Shout group full of People who have no Atmas or decent Abyssites.

thats more challenging than anything in what CoP used to be :P

(btw if you haven't gotten it by now im mostly joking)

[Cabalabob]

This is extremely oxymoronic.

elaborate, i don't see it. If a person who nvr did CoP came up and asked me 2 help em wit promies id say sure its a free 1k exp for 1 shotting a boss, if a person came up 2 me and asked me 2 help them do it under the lvl cap of 30 cause they want to experience the fight properly even tho ther is no extra reward for doing so, i'd say no way. ther wuld need 2 be an extra reward from doing it under the level cap or i wuldnt hav any reason to help.

[darkvision]

these days CoP is too week and can be done in 3 days at 8 hours a day (done this for a mule). before it took me over 1 year to do coz finding help was hard sing the majority of the playerbase had complete it.

i will agree i would love for some uber hard missions/mobs/endgame that will give a full alliance with the best gear/weapons a run for thier money. But at the same time having time restriction on those said missions/endgame mostly. for ACP ASA and moogle expanssions it took people 1 night to complete and pretty much had no real sence of a chalange. what i really want to se most is endgame event that is OUTSIDE of abyssea where player skill gear come into play while making it possible to have a wide range of jobs that can do the event. atm with abyssea all you really need is WHM BLM BLU NIN WAR, BRD is not a requirement and can be used as a subjob but everyone love a BRD and its always nice to have a THF. so basically only 6-7 jobs really stand out from the rest.

basically an uber hard endgame event that even the best will loose and also have a chance to win, also having alot of variability in how it all plays out. maybe have like 10 different types of bosses that you can end up facing a totally random one so you will have to have a diverce alliance setup to deal with what is faced and even then it can be so random that out of the 10 bosses they can random job/abilities/traits etc so that it keeps you on your toes and everyone has to be alert at all times. so that you cant fall into previous situations where 1 setup will defeat all. even down to the normal mobs they can be a random mob of any/multiple type(s) and posses all total different traits/abilities/jobs from each other. and also have brand new mobs that has never been seen and not just a reskin of current mobs.

and once you are in the event you cannot then simply run and change jobs to deal with what your faced. have it totally locked out after your alliance has entered and started then they cannot exit and re-enter.

Basically an uber dificult endgame event out of abyssea that is totally random in what mobs your faced with that have all random traits/abilities/jobs so nothing is always the same, if you wipe to a mob then its traits/abilities/jobs change and also regens to full HP when left idle (no agro) for 15 secs but will require taking a diverse setup (including lolPUP). once you enter and start you cant exit and re-enter. if you happen to d/c then when you log back on white event is still currently in progress then you will be where you d/c'd

on top of this, its instanced with time restrictions of only can do said event once every 2-3 days

hope that can be understood

[Carth]

elaborate, i don't see it. If a person who nvr did CoP came up and asked me 2 help em wit promies id say sure its a free 1k exp for 1 shotting a boss, if a person came up 2 me and asked me 2 help them do it under the lvl cap of 30 cause they want to experience the fight properly even tho ther is no extra reward for doing so, i'd say no way. ther wuld need 2 be an extra reward from doing it under the level cap or i wuldnt hav any reason to help.
We're talking about two different things.

What makes Level restricted CoP battles "proper"?

What makes an entirely new player want to do CoP under level restriction because it's the "proper" way?
What makes this new player want to believe that is the "proper" way?

As for your point though:

People won't do capped fights not because of the BCNM battle itself, but because you have to go through hell and back just to get to the battle in the first place. Fetch quests, constant "win" buttons (anima, yellow liquid, etc.) and getting the correct jobs has made CoP one of the most neglected mission lines because once people are done with it they sure as hell don't wanna do it again. People say they want CoP-like missions again but I highly doubt they know what they're talking about.

[Wenceslao]

More than getting back to the oldschool style what if SE give us the option to set the old lvl restriction on CoP areas and battlefieds, this way the ones who like the old style can enjoy it and the ones who like it as it is now can enjoy it to, this way all players wins, don't you think guys?

[Zumi]

If I wanted to be spoonfed rewards, I'd play WoW.

I really doubt you have beat Sinestra in WoW or any of the hard mode content.

Also requiring certain classes to beat missions easily != to challenge.


I've always opted for a challenge. Fighting Ultimecia with a Lv37 Squall (and the others under that) by spamming Holy Wars, Doom Train and Eden for 3 hours only to finish the game at 2AM and sit in awe as the credits roll.

Yea using a invincible pot (Holy War) really shows you like a challenge. Anyone can beat FF8 with a stack of 99 holy wars simply because you can not die.

[Cabalabob]

What makes Level restricted CoP battles "proper"?

What makes an entirely new player want to do CoP under level restriction because it's the "proper" way?
What makes this new player want to believe that is the "proper" way?

um...how about the fact that that is how it was originally implemented? that and all the items that you mentioned are completely redundant now seeing as you can kill all the promy bosses and mammets with your eyes closed.

The only reason they removed the caps is because CoP areas and rewards are so old and outdated that they wanted casual players to be able to zip through it and get back to the new stuff. this leaves people who look for a challenge in their mission lines with another story they can complete solo in less than a week.

honestly if a FF game came out and for 6/8ths of it i culd kill every monster and boss in one shot i'd want my money back... thats pretty much the case with CoP.

as for your point about people not knowing what ther talking about. well why not let them figure that out for themselves? all im suggesting is adding in the cap as a CHOICE. that way casual players can burn ther way through it and get ther rajas ring and sea access, frequent players can enjoy the story the way it was supposed 2 be aswell as be rewarded appropriatley with stuff casual players can't get and nostalgic players can try it under the cap then realise they hated it and never look back.

[Carth]

um...how about the fact that that is how it was originally implemented?
So a change that SE themselves have made is considered to be "wrong" and "improper", because that wasn't how it was in the first place? Thank goodness SE never changed Campaign... oh wait.

Also.


The only reason they removed the caps is because CoP areas and rewards are so old and outdated that they wanted casual players to be able to zip through it and get back to the new stuff. this leaves people who look for a challenge in their mission lines with another story they can complete solo in less than a week.
Absolutely false. If I remember right CoP was actually the least completed storyline out of RotZ, CoP, and ToAU because players, especially ones that came post-ToAU, couldn't find anyone to help them, especially players that already completed the storyline. SE changed CoP to allow players to get to Sea and experience the storyline, as well as get the endgame rewards.

I'm actually not arguing against your suggestion. But people really need to open their eyes to why this was changed.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Absolutely false. If I remember right CoP was actually the least completed storyline out of RotZ, CoP, and ToAU because players, especially ones that came post-ToAU, couldn't find anyone to help them, especially players that already completed the storyline. SE changed CoP to allow players to get to Sea and experience the storyline, as well as get the endgame rewards.

I'm actually not arguing against your suggestion. But people really need to open their eyes to why this was changed.Truth.

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