[dev1024] Job adjustments - RDM

[CapriciousOne]

The forthcoming version update will feature the following job-related adjustments and refinements:


Additional Spells
 Temper (RDM Lv. 95)
Grants the ability to occasionally attack twice.

Personally I was thinking this would be better served by just giving us tier I of Double attack job trait than a spell.

Other Additional Spells


Given that jobs with A skill in stuff tend to have aga forms of stuff when it comes to magic, why is there no aga form of enfeebles by now for RDM. More specifically where is my Paralyzega and Silencega ? It would make a RDM BLM duo kind of nice team in a mana burn environment but I suppose I will have to keep dreaming about it. Overall though it would help with aggro control and allow for more aggro control in cases of linking solo and in party situations if sleepga doesnt land or is resisted or more importantly would allow me to control links when solo without giving up my dual wield from /nin /dnc. It is just a shame that BLM is the only one that can handle situations like these where a tiered ga form of silence and paralyze would be just as useful. Higher tiers of paralyzega would proc more often starting with tier 1 at like 1 in 8 attack rounds up to tier 5 with like 1 in 3 attack rounds. Silencega on the other hand would be more about duration from tier 1 at about 15 seconds to tier 5 lasting about 180 seconds (basically 15, +15, +30, +45, +75 second increments) why is this not done already seems simple enough?

Existing Spells Made Available to New Jobs
o White Magic
 Raise II (RDM Lv. 95)
 Raise III (SCH Lv. 92)
 Reraise III (SCH +v. 92)
 Addle (WHM Lv. 93)

My issue here is I know RDM is C in healing and with the help of Light Arts SCH is like a B but with that said how is it that WHM with an A in healing is in the same tier of the spell Reraise as a SCH who can only compete via Light Arts? In addition, at level 90+ how is it that scholar has all 3 tiers of Reraise and yet RDM cant even get Tier 1 Reraise? Simply put, and based on how the skill caps are implemented, why does any job other than the most skilled job in that skill class have access to the highest tier spell in the class? if the job doesnt have an A in that skill they should not have the highest tier spell PERIOD no matter how much anybody whines about it. So I hope you plan in introducing like a Raise IV and Reraise IV which is WHM only as well as giving access to Reraise 1 for RDM to rectify this situation if you are going to stick with allowing SCH access to Reraise III

[Neisan_Quetz]

Reraise items, use them. Reraise spell is just convenient, it doesn't really affect the job imo.

[Hyrist]

Personally I was thinking this would be better served by just giving us tier I of Double attack job trait than a spell.


Actually, I'm venomously against this. I'd rather hope that the Double Attack rate from this spell is higher than the natural job trait from Warrior, as we're having to expend MP and cast time to use it.

If we want a Double Attack Trait, we can sub Warrior for it, then STACK it with this spell.


It is just a shame that BLM is the only one that can handle situations like these where a tiered ga form of silence and paralyze would be just as useful.

Um... Bard, BLU, SCH or Rdm/sch can all handle links in an AoE to various degrees. WHM and DRK can also add their additional single target sleeps to the mix if they wish. We're not as hurting for more AoE sleeps as you think.

AoE Paralyzes and Silences, I can see getting more of, though, just having Accention AoE target white magic Enfeebles would work too.

I say this mainly because I severely doubt SE will give RDM much more in terms of AoEs. They've always viewed RDM as more as a single-target sort of character.

[TRiPP]

I'm slightly more furious at us asking for Cure V, and instead we get Raise II, and they steal one of our spells in return.

[Merton9999]

I'm slightly more furious at us asking for Cure V, and instead we get Raise II, and they steal one of our spells in return.

I feel the same for both RDM and SCH. RDM and SCH healing updates are insulting. And it's extra ridiculous that both WHM and BRD get Addle.

@CapriciousOne
No SCH cares, at least not this one, about Raise III or Reraise III. These are troll offerings by SE after all the requests for better healing capability.

Temper sounds OK. But not if it's 1%.

Spontaneity - dumb name. I like one of the other poster's name of Soliloquy, though it was for a different ability. I don't like their wording of "reduces" instead of "eliminates" like the BLM ability. Also, it says casting time and not recast time, which is what I'd care more for. I assume it's both, but who knows.

[Felren]

Still no cure V........................................................................................wtf

[Seriha]

Spontaneity is fine as a name in the context that suddenly a spell can be cast. Not even sure how you could attempt to apply Soliloquy to it in its stead as its definition and theatrical application would, by default, make it better themed for BRD or PUP. In general, I still think the JA's kinda meh, at best used for possible double MBs or now that we'll be getting R2, the ability to raise 2 people after a wipe at a decent pace and 3 if you cast R1 too.

[Stylin]

Additional Spells
 Temper (RDM Lv. 95)
Grants the ability to occasionally attack twice.

Oh that's so Pringles.

[CapriciousOne]

Reraise items, use them. Reraise spell is just convenient, it doesn't really affect the job imo.

I agree but when entering certain battlefields they always get wiped and therefore that item charge or scroll just got wasted.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Equipment Reraise doesn't get wiped by battlefields anymore last I checked, scrolls/spells do.

[CapriciousOne]

Actually, I'm venomously against this. I'd rather hope that the Double Attack rate from this spell is higher than the natural job trait from Warrior, as we're having to expend MP and cast time to use it.

1. If we want a Double Attack Trait, we can sub Warrior for it, then STACK it with this spell.



2. Um... Bard, BLU, SCH or Rdm/sch can all handle links in an AoE to various degrees. WHM and DRK can also add their additional single target sleeps to the mix if they wish. We're not as hurting for more AoE sleeps as you think.

3. AoE Paralyzes and Silences, I can see getting more of, though, just having Accention AoE target white magic Enfeebles would work too.

I say this mainly because I severely doubt SE will give RDM much more in terms of AoEs. They've always viewed RDM as more as a single-target sort of character.

1. For me and style of play (mostly solo) subbing RDM/WAR doesnt seem practical but maybe I will give it another try I mean it was like level 30 the last time I tried it. I jus feel in the grand scheme of things that there are plenty of spells that they give us that in the end is rarely going to be used or even worth using. Seems like this may be one of them and probably will just be another spell to waste money and mp on, hence why I suggested the trait but I see your point as well. Something this useful though would be better as a trait to me

2. Again totally agree with you but RDM doesnt have a native way to deal with more than 2 mobs at once without subbing those jobs and that is what I was referring to clarify further. solo I am usually good fending of 2 mobs as rdm/dnc but 3 or more proves trying at times. For me it is all about options which apparently SE doesnt like giving us alot of at least not to my satisfaction.

3. Totally agree again but it really would prove useful if they did and would speak more to the native ability of RDM to enfeeble. Also would be good when in a BCNM where one of the mobs is a paladin and is resistant to sleep but there is no BLM around with elemental seal or anything. Making a mob lose a turn or keeping a BLM form manafonting the party to high heaven would be nice if stun fails or there is no stunner around.

[Stylin]

Perhaps Square decided not to give RDM any native AoEs outside of Diaga so we wouldn't be able to wipe shadows and then follow up with a Sleep in PvP.

[CapriciousOne]

I'm slightly more furious at us asking for Cure V, and instead we get Raise II, and they steal one of our spells in return.

LOL true but I admit since I use RDM/DNC mostly solo the combinaton of Cure IV + Curing Waltz III is usually sufficient. Yea Cure V would be way better then I could use any combination of Cure V, Cure IV and Curing Waltz III. In a party where I could melee that would be 3 people I could heal in close succession but still isnt quite like a Curaga spell.

[Neisan_Quetz]

People still do PvP? That sounds about as relevant as Yilbegan adjustments - oh wait. Shit.

[Stylin]

People still do PvP?

I was thinking more along the lines of "Did anyone ever do PvP?" but you get the idea.

[CapriciousOne]

Perhaps Square decided not to give RDM any native AoEs outside of Diaga so we wouldn't be able to wipe shadows and then follow up with a Sleep in PvP.

Technically though u can do that with diaga and just follow up with Sleep II then Sleep I if it doesnt stick to give you time enought to get sleep II recast. Still good point they really know how to take the fun out of stuff though. >:(

[Stylin]

Technically though u can do that with diaga and just follow up with Sleep II then Sleep I if it doesnt stick to give you time enought to get sleep II recast. Still good point they really know how to take the fun out of stuff though. >:(

No you can't, DoT wakes people up.

[cidbahamut]

I was thinking more along the lines of "Did anyone ever do PvP?" but you get the idea.

Except that shadows originally blocked AoEs, so no your idea doesn't really make any sense.

[Stylin]

Except that shadows originally blocked AoEs, so no your idea doesn't really make any sense.

And now they don't, so what's your point?

[CapriciousOne]

No you can't, DoT wakes people up.

Oh sorry I meant as far as just wiping the shadows go

[cidbahamut]

And now they don't, so what's your point?

That the trend of not giving us AoE spells predates them being used to strip shadows.

[Stylin]

That the trend of not giving us AoE spells predates them being used to strip shadows.

It's a moot point when you consider that this game is still receiving updates.

[CapriciousOne]

Equipment Reraise doesn't get wiped by battlefields anymore last I checked, scrolls/spells do.

Well it has been a while since I had or used equipment based Reraise but the main issue is after level 90 why does SCH have accesss to all 3 Reraises yet RDM cant even get the baseline spell let alone Rreraise II. Granted I rarely die solo unless 2 or more mobs closer to my acutal level gang up on me but the reduced exp loss of Reraise II for rdm would be nice though especially trying to solo some of these Battlefields that still make you lose exp or just in general. I admit it is petty but this is really about the fact that if SCH has it why not RDM too?

[CapriciousOne]

[QUOTE=Merton9999;173857]I feel the same for both RDM and SCH. RDM and SCH healing updates are insulting. And it's extra ridiculous that both WHM and BRD get Addle.

@CapriciousOne
No SCH cares, at least not this one, about Raise III or Reraise III. These are troll offerings by SE after all the requests for better healing capability.

Temper sounds OK. But not if it's 1%.


Maybe but if they are just going to throw out spells like candy why not throw Reraise I/II to RDM as well.

[CapriciousOne]

It's a moot point when you consider that this game is still receiving updates.

Well I have to admit this game has seen many updates and it does seem that SE is hell bent on not giving RDM any AoE stuff beyond Diaga which from what I read was originally a Divine magic spell.

[Hyrist]

1. For me and style of play (mostly solo) subbing RDM/WAR doesnt seem practical but maybe I will give it another try I mean it was like level 30 the last time I tried it. I jus feel in the grand scheme of things that there are plenty of spells that they give us that in the end is rarely going to be used or even worth using. Seems like this may be one of them and probably will just be another spell to waste money and mp on, hence why I suggested the trait but I see your point as well. Something this useful though would be better as a trait to me

2. Again totally agree with you but RDM doesnt have a native way to deal with more than 2 mobs at once without subbing those jobs and that is what I was referring to clarify further. solo I am usually good fending of 2 mobs as rdm/dnc but 3 or more proves trying at times. For me it is all about options which apparently SE doesnt like giving us alot of at least not to my satisfaction.

3. Totally agree again but it really would prove useful if they did and would speak more to the native ability of RDM to enfeeble. Also would be good when in a BCNM where one of the mobs is a paladin and is resistant to sleep but there is no BLM around with elemental seal or anything. Making a mob lose a turn or keeping a BLM form manafonting the party to high heaven would be nice if stun fails or there is no stunner around.


1. A PDT-% Set is a good thing to have when soloing single wield, smaller monsters aren't much of a trouble, but post 80s you're going to start running into a difference in our defensive spell scaling, that's where this set comes into play.

That said I'm more of the mind that this spell is more powerful than the trait itself, and with the possibility that it can be targeted or accessioned, it would greatly assist our other buff functions as well.

As far as wasting MP? Are you REALLY having trouble? Composure alone offsets this, more so if it prevents enspells (or even stacks with Enspell IIs which you can haste Samba on as well.) You shouldn't be having too much of a trouble MP wise. And if it stacks with traits, then you're better off adjusting your playstyle and enjoying the overall performance boost.

2. Red Mage has 3 forms of hard CC[crowd control] and 2 form of soft CC. Sleep, Sleep II, and Break can easily hold down 2-3 mobs for your killing pleasure. But if you have difficulty, you can always bind pin the third and alternate gravity, though that gets expensive over time.

What you might find helpful in the future, however, is this new JA that quickens spellcasting. (Though, no mention of recast timer reset... hmm.) Depending on how it functions it should assist in your pinning methods better without having to worry about getting new /ga spells.

3. Just keeping a good focus on the battles keeps this going as well, however. When the attention is on us, we don't need the Ga paralyze because we have ice spikes. And in any situation that involves Crowd Control, we're typically focusing on one monster at a time. So unless the monster dies quickly, our single target debuffs are fine.

As far as sleep resistant mobs, unless they're outright immune to break, that's how you get past Paladins. (Break, Gravity, Bind, repeat.) In any situation in which you'd need that much CC and a stun to boot, just sub black mage.

[Hashmalum]

Still no Cure V, or anything that could substitute for it. WHM poaches one of our enfeebles. (I assume BRD's addle song stacks with actual Addle, like Elegy stacks with Slow, so no complaints from me about that at least.) WHM gets more party buffs, when we were told we were going to be making our party members "virtual demigods". And now, even our dispelling is second-rate, compared to... DRK?! No new enfeebles either--none of the mentioned Gravity II, or Curse (already in the game, just enemy-only) or Virus (ditto). Come on, not even Dispelga or Dispel II? Temper isn't actually bad, but it does make enspell IIs even more of a joke, and I have the nasty sneaking suspicion that it will be self-only and not subject to Accession. Raise II is irrelevant with how easy XP is to get these days. I'm sorry but this is really not a very impressive update from RDM's point of view.

[Ahrana]

The devil is in the details of this update. If temper has joytoy potency then whm, brd, rdm + 3 dd partyies will steamroll things. If it's comparible to loladloquium potency then...well, better luck next time.

[Duelle]

Additional Spells
 Temper (RDM Lv. 95)
Grants the ability to occasionally attack twice.Oh that's so Pringles.I wouldn't celebrate just yet. My main concern is whether it is self-only or castable on others.

[TRiPP]

While these aren't official. I'm still worried about this whole... situation if you will.
If it anything like the recent spell 'updates' that we've been getting. It's single target only.
Because, remember SE aims to destroy Red Mage, for those of you in denial. Reread the update, and reread it until it sinks in.
It's okay, we can wait.
I'm sure couple hundred give or take if not more Red Mages have just put up their chapeaus for good after this blunder.
Onto other news, who's springing for a new main job? Anyone? If so, which one?

However, to be honest. I don't know who to blame for this, the player base or SE. The other day, I was defending SE because it's not generally their fault for how the players do things with the things SE hands them. However, now I have to retract my statement. Thanks SE, making anyone who defended your honor into looking like a fool. However, going on with which side to blame. The players wanted melee, some if not secretly most. (Don't deny it.) Yet, I believe they should of added both and equal amounts of meleeing capabilities as well as mage capabilities. (i.e. Cure V, or at the very least something that increases cure potency.)

Instead... What happens? We get utter crap, and on top of that even more crap. Making us feel like the laughing stock of the classes. Jack of all trades huh? Good at everything, master of nothing? How about Cannon fodder? I think that suits our job more correctly, or even seat warmer. No, wait that would mean we'd actually be good at something right? Our enfeebles bounce off mobs, our melee is laughable and our cures as about as efficient as a warrior/white mage. Which is sad because Warrior is more of a jack of all trades than we are, and they're not suppose to be.

We as Red Mages have the potential to be a unique class, but with the tools that we're given. It would take more energy than required of a game to accomplish that, or you know. You're extremely lucky. Oh wait, we don't have the potential. Because anything that we get. They ship it off to White Mages and Scholars. We're not unique, we don't have potential. As the updates go on and on. We're going to end up being completely useless. Remember Phalanx? Refresh? Dispel? Addle? When they were OUR specific spells? Name off the jobs that get them. Where's our uniqueness? At this point the only thing we have at being unique is Gravity and Refresh II. That's about it. Phalanx, Paladin now has it. (Great for them.) Refresh? As does every mage job now with /rdm. Dispel? Scholar has it, Addle? White mage will now have it as well. Fast cast? Every damn job has that option as well now. So, I ask you where in any of our abilities and jobs do we have uniqueness? Protect V? White mage can merit that to be supreme AND it's ENHANCING one of OUR areas of expertise. Family of Regens? Again, you guessed it. Enhancing. So why should White Mage get angry when we overstep our boundaries, they've been doing it since who knows when. I think it'd only be fair that we also took something in return for this.

This update is inexcusable for Red Mages everywhere.
Temper is going to be useless for En-Tier II. I can tell you that now. Quick cast? Really? So we're suppose to be mind readers and assume to know when someone is going to need it? At that moment? By the time you've realized that someone needs it, it'll have been too late, and if you're going to be spamming it left and right, then you might as well make it into an area of eff- oh wait. You want everything for Red Mage to be self-targetable only. Wouldn't work. Try again. What? The Dark knight attempting to get Dread spikes up while he's being attacked and getting interrupted? Hmmm, Cure, Haste or Quick cast. The most obvious answer, Cure. (However, most Abyssea White Mages would choose Haste.)

There are several ways to improve on Red Mage in both melee and magical category. However, White Mages and Scholars alike would scream out "OVERPOWER" while happily stepping on our turf and loling at us from a distance. If you want to talk about overpowering, then let's get down to the basics. Let's remove White Mage's Cure casting/recast merits. Red Mage's are suppose to be the more efficient fastest casters and it makes them overpowered. Remove Scholar's Ebullience and and Rapture because again, it makes them overpowered. In b4 Scholars and White Mages QQing about it. Red Mage's most known trait is Fast Cast. Move over White Mage, you're stepping into our turf with Cure magic cast/recast. Scholar, let's go ahead and remove Celerity and Alacrity as well because that's also our turf with fast casting. Oh, but we've also have to remove Penury and Parsimony because that's stepping into Black Mage's territory of Conserving MP. Ebullience would be stepping on Black Mage's toes because it's a mini elemental seal, Rapture is stepping on White Mage's toes because it's a mini divine seal. Now if we removed all those merits and abilities wouldn't you feel just sour? So why the hatred between mages? There shouldn't be, we're all borrowing things from each other to be more efficient at our jobs. Isn't that what everyone wants? Apparently not. I don't see why White Mage should get infuriated if we were to say get the Regen family including Cure V. You're stealing our Fast Cast, we're not infuriated because you are, same with Scholar.

What SE should of done to help with Red Mage was not give it useless trinkets like this. How about giving us a trait that increases enfeebling potency and enhancing potency? (That's not Composure.) Removing Slow II, Paralyze II, Dia III, Bio III, Blind II and Phalanx II from being merit-able make them into scrolls. Allow us to merit into Fast Cast. (In b4 'overpowering' may I remind you of Thief's triple attack, Samurai's Store TP and Warrior's Double Attack.) Allow Composure to be merited as well as give us the higher tiered sword and possibly dagger weapon skills while Composure is active. Meriting Composure would increase Accuracy, Damage and give us a hint of subtle blow with it by a percentage. (Assume whatever percentage you'd like. I'm not throwing out numbers, just stating it.) In before people stating "Well just merit them both! PROBLEM SOLVED." It's not a problem solved, because the damage is still lacking, I doubt you could find gear with both subtle blow AND haste to cover you. Make our enfeebles mean a damn thing again. Make enfeebling skill increase the potency of our enfeebles not only land them. There's so many things that can be done instead... You give us...a garbage pail to stop an avalanche? Really? Be creative, don't just sit around and think of ways to screw jobs over and claim "refinement" or a "fix." because all it does it create avoidance of the job. We're getting nerfed like Ranger a while back, or Warrior with Rampage, or Black Mage when ToAU came out, where the only way you would get into a party would be if you're a back up healer or into a manaburn.

Then again, this rant is for naught. It's not like it's going to change the horrid hand SE has given us. It's not like they're going to look at this and be "Well, this kid's got a couple of good points, we could do this and we could do that to enhance Red Mage and make it unique." Instead it'll probably end up getting trolled and flamed by other players on a just because.

Oh and for the White Mages and Scholars and what have you that are deeply against Red Mage obtaining Cure V or even both Scholar and Red Mage obtaining Cure V. Tell you what, give us back the protect family, (Including -ra) the shell family (including -ra) every single bar spell including -ra as well as the regen family, including Slow and Paralyze and Addle as well as your precious newest spell Addle, and let's not forget teleport based spells, sneak, invisible, haste, erase and the boost family. and you can keep your Cure V and in this update instead of getting all those lovely wonderful little trinkets you can have this, an ability that increases someone elses' healing capabilities, Curaga annnd that's about it. (Know what they all have in common? They're all enhancing and enfeebling. Red Mage's area of expertise.)
Feel like you're getting the sour end of the deal? Now you know how we feel. (Or should I mention meripo parties? Where it was just more efficient to get a Red Mage then a White Mage. To be honest, I think that would sound more like a fair trade. White Mage gets to keep their precious Cure V. We take back everything else. In b4 "well fien we'll juzt take back our curez then." Jokes on you. We can still buff and enfeeble. Good luck with magic mobs. We'll also still have Regen.)

Just my opinions and thoughts of what should of actually been implemented instead of what's actually getting implemented.
Take it easy, sorry for any grammatical errors and the long post. I just wanted to get this off my chest. Also, lack of sleep ftw. Also, it's not a personal vendetta against White Mages, mind you not at all. However, I do remember having a White Mage friend being infuriated with Red Mage getting Regen II way back when it was introduced to Red Mage. Mind you, I didn't care because it's enhancing. The whole Regen family should be ours regardless, otherwise we just have a high enhancing skill for no other reason than to just stand around and spam Bar spells for hours at an end. So, I imagine if there's at least one person that feels that way, there has to be several that do as well. This is my rebuttal to their thoughts on Red Mage getting Cure V. (If it ever does. However, knowing SE they'll probably give it to us after Red mage becomes a dead job. At level 99.)

Oh right, and thanks for putting us out of a main. I can finally have inventory space by NPCing my HQ staves.

Also; Temper - Job Trait.
Something all red mages had to control upon reading the update.

[saevel]

No you can't, DoT wakes people up.

That is why you go /BLM and open with Sleepga. Wipes shadows and sleeps them, if their using poison pots then follow it up with bind (or break). Then do the usual Silence -> Paralyze -> Slow and drain / aspir them to death. May take awhile, but is by far the cheapest sure fire way to win a PVP match.

[saevel]

And as I've said multiple times now, you do not want Temper to be other-castable. AOE-able self target yes, but other cast-able no. Else you'll be be stuck doing it on 4~5 other melee's along with haste. Once that happens you will NEVER be allowed to melee in a group again, because the exact same BS that happened in the past will happen again, you'll be yelled at by the four to five other melee's "where's my temper b1tch, better keep that shizzle up, and make me a sammich while your back there". Also you don't want Cure V, especially with a single targetable other castable melee buff spell. The end result is a RDM cycling four to five tempers, four to five hastes and spamming Cure V on a bunch of melee's as they go hog wild. Pull out your sword and you'll be yelled at to get back to hasting and cureing, else one of the SE riding DRK's, or Hasso'ing WAR / DRG's, or the CS Berserked MNK happened to die from too many damage.

Of course there are those amongst the RDM group that have zero intention of playing RDM and instead want these things so that they can enjoy them on DRK / MNK / DRG / BLU / ect. Gotta love how we're our own worst enemy.

[Stylin]

That is why you go /BLM and open with Sleepga.

That's my point, you are restricted by subjob as opposed to having Slowga and Paralyga handy, allowing you to destroy your opponent /war or /nin.

[CapriciousOne]

1. A PDT-% Set is a good thing to have when soloing single wield, smaller monsters aren't much of a trouble, but post 80s you're going to start running into a difference in our defensive spell scaling, that's where this set comes into play.

Maybe but here post level 80 maybe it just me but i am finding the baseline defense of armor sets just plain lacking. Eventually I will get back to putting more effort into crafting to see if this synergy makes any real difference in improving that but somehow I doubt it will be to the point of complete satisfaction. The last set(head,hands,body,legs, and feet) that I seen with decent DEF was back in the 70s with the dusk jerking set for 174 total defense and a bonus 23 attack but the movement speed reduction is complete bs, lol. As these level 90+ mobs hit harder the baseline total defense of armor sets need to start hitting and surpassing the 200s already without needing to be in abyssea all the time with atmas and bs. Some of the level 80 armor sets are barely any better than the late 70 stuff (not counting stat mods here) and that is just sad well at least the ones that can be AH anyway.

2. That said I'm more of the mind that this spell is more powerful than the trait itself, and with the possibility that it can be targeted or accessioned, it would greatly assist our other buff functions as well.

In this sense I can see your point but in terms of stuff proc casting a spell that may only proc like 1 or 2 times in it duration for however mp it will cost still seem better off as a trait but if it is something that you can completely count on to work consistently then yes I totally agree a spell will be way more powerful for the reason you mention. Otherwise I dont see the point in making me use my mp for it. I am really stingy with my mp, lol.

3. As far as wasting MP? Are you REALLY having trouble? Composure alone offsets this, more so if it prevents enspells (or even stacks with Enspell IIs which you can haste Samba on as well.) You shouldn't be having too much of a trouble MP wise. And if it stacks with traits, then you're better off adjusting your playstyle and enjoying the overall performance boost.

As mentioned in resposnse to number 2 i'm just stingy with my mp I dont litterally ever run out mp solo because of it. I really meant this more figuratively than litterally as far as wasting mp. If a spell cost x mp but the effect is something that kicks in every once a blue moon and when it does kick in it doesnt really do anything significant then it is a wast of mp to me. I never liked that having to pick and choose either a samba or enspell crap either but since the mp for enspells and tp for sambas is reasonable i just cut one off to put on the other. The main thing for me is that where possible I like to have affects apply to both weapons so I generally stick to enspell I over II because of this fact. Overall despite the fact I never really use much if any mp while healing gear or other refresh gear or even staves mp is never really an issue for me just to clarify.

4. Red Mage has 3 forms of hard CC[crowd control] and 2 form of soft CC. Sleep, Sleep II, and Break can easily hold down 2-3 mobs for your killing pleasure. But if you have difficulty, you can always bind pin the third and alternate gravity, though that gets expensive over time.

I must admit I havent used break all too much since I have purchased it. The only time so far I have used it was in a few Campaign battles and I was rather unimpressed when compared to the mob version of the spell I was highly pissed off since it wears off upon damage to the mob or at least it seemed that way to me. I suppose it could be more effective against non campaign mobs I will try adding it to my sleep II/I macro and see but I am still skeptical of that spell. I have also done that with bind and gravity and yest it does get expensive over time and thus why I was looking for a more reasonably mp cost effective alternative. Silence and parlyzing mobs with an additional blind /blind 2 for secondary links seem to do pretty good over all just would be nice to have a single spell to accomplish it on so i can focus more on the direct rather than impending threats while waiting for sleep recasts and all. I really try to get all the mobs sleep II though since it gives me a full 90 seconds which is a huge difference maker in situation in like those. Guess I could always sub blm but I admit I am spoiled with dual wielding and hate reverting back to sword and boarding but sometimes it is necessary (sigh) :)

5. What you might find helpful in the future, however, is this new JA that quickens spellcasting. (Though, no mention of recast timer reset... hmm.) Depending on how it functions it should assist in your pinning methods better without having to worry about getting new /ga spells.

I have been quite satisfied with getting spells off in general fast cast still has proven useful even with casting tier III elementals. Spell casting in general is more about timing the spell casting with the mobs attack round. In addition with the help of aquaveil, stoneskin, phalanx II, blind II and paralyze II at my disposal getting spells off is more of a non issue to me. though the recast leaves much to be desired.

Another higher tier of fast cast may resolve or put a dent in this as well at least for tier III and higher spells. I still havent gotten any tier iv spells because of the mp cost and casting time I imagine those have plus i refuse to pay more than 100k for a spell on ah, LOL. So far me being cheap and not buying tier IV spells hasnt bit me in butt as of yet as far soloing outside abyssea.

Only time spell casting starts to become a real issue for me is in the case of 3 or more mobs on me. It makes it extremely difficult to get of spells even on the current mob as they are hitting you at different intervals. When a mob becomes awake when sleep wears off is where paralyzega and silencega would come into play allowing me to buy maybe a second or two to get off the next round of sleep II/Sleep I/ and now break while still dealing with the current thread. I can barely get a cure off which is why i prefer to go /dnc over blm bc of guarantee cure in waltzes when the normal spells fail. Cure IV + Curing Waltz III is almost as good as a single Cure V if i remember correctly but i'm sure I dont. In any case this is why I think /ga spells for silence and paralyze would be useful. Getting nuked by 2 True sight imps with Fire IV or even V while trying to kill some other mob sucks but it would at least give you a chance. Whether you are able to make good on that oportunity is up to your skills. Would be nice if there was a pet command I could use to make my Adventuring fellow go attack one of the other mobs instead of the one I'm focused on that would help as well. Ga spells will just have to do because I dont see that ever happening.

6. Just keeping a good focus on the battles keeps this going as well, however. When the attention is on us, we don't need the Ga paralyze because we have ice spikes. And in any situation that involves Crowd Control, we're typically focusing on one monster at a time. So unless the monster dies quickly, our single target debuffs are fine.

Yea the mobs of late I face dont die quickly solo maybe after the next level cap. While you are correct here I think the issue to me is that Ice spikes is more governed by your enhancing skill which is generally lower than your enfeebling skill but I have to look more into that because I"m not positively sure. If I am correct that is why I would prefer a ga spell over it since it more likely to stick and stay on them longer


7.As far as sleep resistant mobs, unless they're outright immune to break, that's how you get past Paladins. (Break, Gravity, Bind, repeat.) In any situation in which you'd need that much CC and a stun to boot, just sub black mage.

In general though I'm usually good about not getting any additoinal and unneccessary aggro from mobs. It just in general think it would make RDM even more useful in low man situations. It is more about the fact that other mage jobs have ga spells for there best magic combat skills yet rdm doesnt. I mean how does the master of enfeebles not have ga enfeebles? Just something I thought would be another way to distinguish the job from other mobs and give another way to contribute to the party.

[saevel]

That's my point, you are restricted by subjob as opposed to having Slowga and Paralyga handy, allowing you to destroy your opponent /war or /nin.

Why would you be trying to melee them? That's just asking to die. THF's are insanely hard to hit, MNK's can CS and use Emp WS to nearly one shot you, BLU's will stun lock you the moment your within casting range, PLD's will just laugh at you as your won't scratch their paint. PVP is the one place you want to be pure page, stay as far away from the enemy as possible and wear them down over time. If you stay away your basically invulnerable, if you get close you provide them with a chance to use their abilities and seriously hurt you.

Your using sleepga not to just strip shadows, but because it'll buy 2~3 seconds (if they have poison pots) for you to silence / bind / paralyze them. Once you've got those on most jobs won't be able to go on the offensive, ever, you can control the entire fight. Sleep I / Sleep II / Sleepga / Bind / Gravity / Break all work to control the movement of your enemy and keep distance. Paralyze / Silence / Slow server to steal their JA's and prevent them from casting. If they try to use items that will give you even more time to do things, and para can proc on items too. You kill them by siphoning away their HP and MP and leaving them without the ability to actually do anything.

Learned these things while fighting BLU's, who think their godly at PVP just cause they can stunlock anything close and tear it them to ribbons.

[Stylin]

Now you're just splitting hairs, which is beside the point.

[saevel]

Now you're just splitting hairs, which is beside the point.
Its very relevant. Paralyga / Slowga wouldn't accomplish what Sleepga accomplishes. Your not just trying to strip shadows, your trying to buy yourself a few seconds to CC / lock them down. You must assume their going to be using poison pots and have a supply of echo's, so Sleep / Silence are short term solutions. But if you can control the situation and force them to use them when you want them to use them you can keep distance between them and work their HP / MP down. Which goes to another point, neither /WAR nor /NIN have access to Drain / Aspir which are critical to depleting their MP. Don't believe me then go PVP a BLU. Their tactics look about like this

Disseverment
Heat Butt
CA Efflux Q.Cont
T.Shift
G.Rush
Head butt (if its up otherwise Fry Pan)
Disseverment
Fry Pan (if you used head butt earlier, otherwise use headbutt)
H.Barrage / other spell
Your dead

They can do 2K+ damage so fast and keep you stunned and with a 18hp/tick poison effect on. Shadows mean nothing to them, all their spells will rip them off. Biggest weakness is that all their super spells and stun's are short range, usually slightly bigger then melee range. They also have a ranged bind, but it takes time to cast so you have a chance to run away.

So yeah go /WAR or /NIN and fight a BLU, watch the results.

[Stylin]

Yeah nah, you're still missing the point. It's theory craft on why Square hasn't given RDM any native AoE aside from Diaga, not practical application and viable strategy. Thank you for the insight, though.

[Bluplanet]

Okay, I read all four pages of this thread and I did not see anyone specifically address my question... so I'll ask it now.

Regarding the Proposed Job Adjustments for BLM and RDM. I'm curious about the how the descriptions are worded.

• Black Mage Manawell (Lv. 95) Eliminates the cost of the next magic spell the target casts.
• Red Mage Spontaneity (Lv. 95) Reduces casting time for the next magic spell the target casts.

Specifically, "... the next magic spell the "target" casts."

Is it SquEnix's intent that these spells are for a BLM or RDM to cast the spell on another player/enemy?
Is it accurate to state that these spells ARE NOT intended for a BLM or RDM to cast the spell on "self"?

[saevel]

Blu,

I think that's just a poorly worded statement. To my knowledge there isn't a single JA in the game that acts that way, the closest ones are Devotion / Martyr, Accomplice / Collaborator and Sekkanoki. Those all perform a specific effect on the target, the ones above would create a buff icon until you used them up like ES / DA / CA / BA / Efflux / SA / TA and all the other JA buffs in the game.

[Hashmalum]

Technically self-only job abilities have a "target" too, it's just that the list of allowable targets is very, very short.

[CapriciousOne]

And as I've said multiple times now, you do not want Temper to be other-castable. AOE-able self target yes, but other cast-able no. Else you'll be be stuck doing it on 4~5 other melee's along with haste. Once that happens you will NEVER be allowed to melee in a group again, because the exact same BS that happened in the past will happen again, you'll be yelled at by the four to five other melee's "where's my temper b1tch, better keep that shizzle up, and make me a sammich while your back there". Also you don't want Cure V, especially with a single targetable other castable melee buff spell. The end result is a RDM cycling four to five tempers, four to five hastes and spamming Cure V on a bunch of melee's as they go hog wild. Pull out your sword and you'll be yelled at to get back to hasting and cureing, else one of the SE riding DRK's, or Hasso'ing WAR / DRG's, or the CS Berserked MNK happened to die from too many damage.Of course there are those amongst the RDM group that have zero intention of playing RDM and instead want these things so that they can enjoy them on DRK / MNK / DRG / BLU / ect. Gotta love how we're our own worst enemy.

Well me personally I'm a royal a$$hole and will let all 4 of them die just to show them who the real boss is around here, LOL. Last time I checked "unconscious" characters cant yell, LMFAO. Plus I alwyas have a scroll of warp just in case i get crap load of hate. You dont bite the hand the feed you is what I've alwyas been told.

[Ahrana]

Well me personally I'm a royal a$$hole and will let all 4 of them die just to show them who the real boss is around here, LOL. Last time I checked "unconscious" characters cant yell, LMFAO. Plus I alwyas have a scroll of warp just in case i get crap load of hate. You dont bite the hand the feed you is what I've alwyas been told.

And that's when you're replaced with a bard or a white mage. On the plus side it gives you plenty of time to post cool stories on forums.

[Ophannus]

Since ANYONE can use Convert at full strength with /RDM why not let Accession work with Haste/En-spells II/Gain-Stat/Refresh II/Phalanx II

[Lilia]

thats easy, you kill smn support with that.

[cidbahamut]

I don't see how that has any effect on their ability to use Earthen Armor or Perfect Defense.

[Lilia]

when whm/sch/red can cast ALL buffs for party ,you kill 50% from smn.
Aeo vers. is a big point for smn.

[cidbahamut]

That doesn't kill Summoner support at all. Summoner still has things it offers up that can't be found anywhere else and they're pretty darn useful too.

[Supersun]

That doesn't kill Summoner support at all. Summoner still has things it offers up that can't be found anywhere else and they're pretty darn useful too.

...every 2 hours

[cidbahamut]

Their Two Hour isn't the only thing they offer silly.

[Supersun]

Only unique thing I can think of.

[Seriha]

I can't think of the last time I saw a SMN try to seriously maintain Rolling Thunder, Noctoshield, or Earthen Ward.

[cidbahamut]

I can't think of the last time I saw a SMN try to seriously maintain Rolling Thunder, Noctoshield, or Earthen Ward.
Earthen Armor is the one you're looking for.

[Seriha]

For harder stuff, yeah. Though, until RDM gets some kind of Scherzo, if ever, the point was more directed toward RDMs or SCHs stealing SMN's thunder with Stoneskingas, Phalanxgas, and Enspellgas.

[Camate]

To answer your questions about the new red mage spell Temper...

This is going to be a self-target spell only and cannot be made into an AoE spell via SCH's Accession.

[cidbahamut]

To answer your questions about the new red mage spell Temper...

This is going to be a self-target spell only and cannot be made into an AoE spell via SCH's Accession.

So it's a consolation prize that adds nothing to Red Mage's utility and will only get used for solo play.

Fantastic. Is it going to overwrite enspells too?

[Byrth]

Yeah, way to waste an opportunity to keep RDM relevant. Good job SE.

[cidbahamut]

But Byrth, we're getting Thunder IV. That's totally going to keep Red Mage relevant.

[Erics]

At least a lot of RDM melees will be happy to hear this. Depending on the gear that comes out next update, RDMs might be decent for front-line use. Yes, it would be situational, but hell, at least both the magical and physical type users of RDM will be happy all around. inb4 replace rdm with a real melee. <- Yes that statement is true, but hey, if someone makes a pt, and they are main RDM melee, more power to them, they can now help deal some decent damage with that spell and if they have an empyrean/relic, even better.

[Quetzacoatl]

WOW, THAT IS FAIL. Way to freaking blow it, Square.

RDM just lost some potential to be useful in Abyssea for once. You people that have been talking about RDM Melee have done this to yourselves.

And this is from someone who also is an advocate of RDM Melee when done right.

[Kuraudo]

To answer your questions about the new red mage spell Temper...

This is going to be a self-target spell only and cannot be made into an AoE spell via SCH's Accession.

So disappointing... :(

[Stylin]

To answer your questions about the new red mage spell Temper...

This is going to be a self-target spell only and cannot be made into an AoE spell via SCH's Accession.

You're my best friend.

[cidbahamut]

Support specialists who excel at transforming their allies from mere mortals into demigods with their enhancements




Here, have more self-cast only enhancement spells.
Trollface.jpg

Seriously?

[Ophannus]

Even BLUs get Plenilune Embrace which is more or less Cure V.

[Quetzacoatl]

Even BLUs get Plenilune Embrace which is more or less Cure V.

Don't start.

[Erics]

Even BLUs get Plenilune Embrace which is more or less Cure V.

Meh. That spell has a longer recast and leaves you somewhat "terrored." It's great if you're healing blu, but most situations, you are better off using Magic Fruit.

[Ank]

Well that... sucks, woulda been a nice buffing tool

[Helel]

Wait, people actually thought this would NOT be self-target? Are you nuts? That would be extremely overpowered.

I'm looking forward to using this spell with Almace + Khanda +2 (double attack +10) combo. It has the potential to be pretty good as long as it's not something lame like 5%.

Also Plenilune Embrace is nowhere near Cure V, definitely not more O_o.

[Zirael]

To answer your questions about the new red mage spell Temper...

This is going to be a self-target spell only and cannot be made into an AoE spell via SCH's Accession.
Wow...
I'm speechless. Why even waste development time on this? It won't work with Enspell II and will just feed more TP. Will it at least work during weaponskills? Will it work on off-hand weapon? Guess I already can imagine the answers.

[Miitan]

To answer your questions about the new red mage spell Temper...

This is going to be a self-target spell only and cannot be made into an AoE spell via SCH's Accession.

Ahahahahahahahahahaha

*breathes*

Ahahahahahahahahahaha

SE does have a sense of humor after all.

[Kimble]

Dear SE

Please make this spell able to be casted on other party members.

RDM is not a Melee job.

[Supersun]

Temper being self-cast doesn't surprise me that much. I think this is their attempt to bring Rdm melee back to where it was at 75 where the Joyeuse was a big factor in how well it did. Since the level cap rise our only advantage of more or less stupidly high DPS weapons compared to everyone else has pretty much disappeared leaving us where we are today.

I wouldn't be too concerned at the moment. The update hasn't hit yet and I'd be very surprised if there isn't a part 2 to the adjustments coming since I can't remember any new JTs being announced and those usually are in a second post.

That said though. I don't see how the notes so far reflect SE's vision of their job manifesto with nearly every other job receiving new enfeebles except Rdm.

[Quetzacoatl]

I just hope Enfeebling Magic will be worth a damn on HNMs and Higher-tier NMs in Abyssea.

[Feliciaa]

I'm really having a hard time understanding what the design team wants to do with RDM. The manifesto says they turn allies into demigods but then the design team makes a self Target only spell.

Camate, Is there anyway you can find out why a really good spell that would actually make Rdm start to become a serious buffer is self Target only? I'm 100% sure every serious Rdm wants to know.

[cidbahamut]

I just hope Enfeebling Magic will be worth a damn on HNMs and Higher-tier NMs in Abyssea.

Given the bang up job they've done at allowing us to turn our allies into demi-gods, I wouldn't hold out much hope.

[Quetzacoatl]

Given the bang up job they've done at allowing us to turn our allies into demi-gods, I wouldn't hold out much hope.

Yeah, you know, you're probably right. Why even hope for RDM to have anything new to fix them at this point? It'll probably be too little too late by the time they do it, too.

[Anathiel]

I could only imagine some people reading that post and their eyes immediately becoming bloodshot from the rage induced aneurysm xD

[Shiyo]

I predicted this when they first announced it, still hilarious.

Support specialists who excel at transforming their allies from mere mortals into demigods with their enhancements

Explain this please, also explain how we're the masters of enfeebling yet you give our newest, unique, best(best because it has insane macc or something and lands on almost everything in the game) to WHM's?

Please either:
1) Hire devs who actually play the game to make changes
2) Hire WOW's devs to make changes
3) Actually translate things properly from japanese - > english

RDM is also not a melee job, fails at meleeing, has horrible(non-existant) melee gear choices, etc. I'm RDM main, but if I wanna melee and DD I switch to my Kannagi NIN. I will also NEVER make an almace for RDM, so stop trying to please melee rdm players, we don't need melee buffs.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Three words to that response from camate.

"I Like it."

I dont love it, its not a new car, i like it.

No new buff to be harped at for not casting, and i havent seen any mention of it being samba-esque or enspell-esque, has it been posted it wont work with enspells? If not then fine by me! If so, then ill deal! Besides, another nuke, raise II (for faster raising of people) And well, they easily could have given me nothing, if i gotta go 95, something would be nice, and this is something. So what if the buff/support rdm dont like temper, like you all said, a rdm who is idle isnt being productive, so instead of temper, cycle thunder/blizzard/fire IV more! And no this isnt a "troll" or "flaming" statement, i personally will be loving this spell, and using it and enjoying every minute!

Sure i have gripes about the update, but not needing to spam temper on people, riding MORE buff recasts is just a slice of toast WITH my update scrambled eggs.

[Airget]

RDM is a very bipolar community, it's split between those that want to be able to melee and others that just want to be backline mage jobs. You can't really blame SE for making Temper work on RDM only. The whole point of Temper is to allow them more of a melee opportunity, to allow one to cast it on other jobs would just defeat the purpose of Temper and turn it into another status enhancement for classes.

If you look at the big picture RDM is getting a nice balance of update
Melee=Temper
Nuke=Thunder IV
WHM=Raise II(ability to raise two people at a time rather then one is a nice utility to have)
Spontaneity:

This JA in itself has a huge varety of utility, if the casting is near instant to that of stun then it would be possible to raise 3 people, use a tier IV nuke instantly to finish off a mob, allow for back to back stuns if the timer is also reset. Odds are the ability duration is one minute so it would be possible to activate it to anticipate a time when stun is needed and you might need another one handy.

It just seems like people are missing the point as what Temper is. it's not meant as another enhancement to give to players but an optional utility to improve the melee power of a RDM if they wish. In the old era of the game the ability for a RDM to melee wasn't as great as it is now.

If you think of WoE, Dyna changes and even abyssea. The ability to melee and use magic is pretty important overall. In cases when it's not wise to cast magic off the bat the best bet could be either stand back and cure spam or help deal damage and create SCs, which adds another utility to the JA. a RDM could activate said JA open or close a SC and still have the ability to MB with a tier IV spell. With Temper by their side they have the chance to build TP even faster without having to use a sub or earring to give them double attack.

Overall you just need to look at the changes on a more grand scale rather then a small test size.

[Aliekber]

Wow...
I'm speechless. Why even waste development time on this? It won't work with Enspell II and will just feed more TP. Will it at least work during weaponskills? Will it work on off-hand weapon? Guess I already can imagine the answers.

How much dev time do you think this took to implement? Effects team has to make a spell animation...and...that's it. Multi-Strikes already exists as a buff in the game, so putting it on a Scroll in spell form instead of on a Berserker's Tonic would probably take about 1 minute.

I'd like it to be AoEable as much as the next guy, but let's not overstate the amount of effort this required. It's literally possible (from a technical standpoint) for this idea to go from conception to implementation in less than 10 minutes total.

[Yugl]

Looks like that's the new line of Enspells SE was talking about.

[Shiyo]

@Airgett
Nothing you mentioned actually helps the job at all or brings it closer to it's "vision"

://////////////????????

[Ophannus]

Since SE said RDM is getting a new 'enspell' I'm going out on a limb and saying this is our new enspell, so it most likely won't stack with others. That being said, since it can only be cast on RDM and not others, it'll probably be a 100% activation rate on DA like any Enspell. And it probably won't stack with Joyeuse and only work on mainhand weapon, like Enspell 2.

[Sylvr]

RDM is a very bipolar community, it's split between those that want to be able to melee and others that just want to be backline mage jobs. You can't really blame SE for making Temper work on RDM only. The whole point of Temper is to allow them more of a melee opportunity, to allow one to cast it on other jobs would just defeat the purpose of Temper and turn it into another status enhancement for classes.

If you look at the big picture RDM is getting a nice balance of update
Melee=Temper
Nuke=Thunder IV
WHM=Raise II(ability to raise two people at a time rather then one is a nice utility to have)
Spontaneity:

This JA in itself has a huge varety of utility, if the casting is near instant to that of stun then it would be possible to raise 3 people, use a tier IV nuke instantly to finish off a mob, allow for back to back stuns if the timer is also reset. Odds are the ability duration is one minute so it would be possible to activate it to anticipate a time when stun is needed and you might need another one handy.

It just seems like people are missing the point as what Temper is. it's not meant as another enhancement to give to players but an optional utility to improve the melee power of a RDM if they wish. In the old era of the game the ability for a RDM to melee wasn't as great as it is now.

If you think of WoE, Dyna changes and even abyssea. The ability to melee and use magic is pretty important overall. In cases when it's not wise to cast magic off the bat the best bet could be either stand back and cure spam or help deal damage and create SCs, which adds another utility to the JA. a RDM could activate said JA open or close a SC and still have the ability to MB with a tier IV spell. With Temper by their side they have the chance to build TP even faster without having to use a sub or earring to give them double attack.

Overall you just need to look at the changes on a more grand scale rather then a small test size.

What? Serious RDMs are upset about this because most of the other jobs are getting things that help them with their main role while this spell only helps a small and insignificant niche of the job. If it were still 2005 where people were lucky to have 1 max level job, then sure, but now that levels and gear come cheap, why boost RDM Melee power when people can just switch to a more appropriate melee job?

[Septimus]

What is the absolute worst thing about RDM? The endless cycle of spells. Unless it was going to have an awesome duration like 30 minutes, which we all knew was not going to happen, it would be another 3 minute buff that we would have to put on everyone. I've been playing RDM since 2003, personally I was happy to see the job slip into irrelevancy because being needed only for refresh and haste was worse than being useless in my book. No thought was required for most NMs, a machine could have done our job 95% of the time.

So while I am upset that it is not an AoE spell, I am not in the least upset to miss out on the opportunity to cast another monotonous spell. When the Devs actually want to fix RDM, look me up.

[Coldbrand]

Problem Red Mages?

[Patrik]

its cool that i can use this on myself and all... but i find an issue with a self-target melee enhancement spell being released right after SE said that being a big buffer was part of their vision for us... guess we'll forever be self buffers :/ can't say i'm too surprised though

[Crimson_Slasher]

That, or at some point on the way to 99, we will be getting a JA that mirrors/transfers all our buffs currently active onto 1 or all party members with a 10 min recast, which is a possability, in the mean time, im gonna keep doing what im doing, and loving every moment of it!

Double attack dual wielding rdm go!

[Vold]

Even if Temper was able to hit other people, come on guys. Do you really think one spell that gives people occa att twice is what solves RDMs apparent lack of invites to Abyssea? Only cure V or a ridiculously powerful regen spell is going to do that in the eyes of the people. Personally, hell will freeze over before a RDM is not welcomed wherever I set foot, but I ain't "the people" when it comes to these matters.


Wait, people actually thought this would NOT be self-target? Are you nuts? That would be extremely overpowered.

You heard it here first, folks. A melee getting occa att twice via spell is not just overpowering, it's EXTREMELY overpowering. They should delete DA TA Haste and Retaliation from the game RIGHT NOW to restore order if we ever hope to make a return to the glorious old republic, a time when we could only focus on acc gear to be able to hit the side of a barn. 'Cause those days were so much fun!

[Insaniac]

Saw this coming a mile away. Maybe you guys should stop making 1000+ reply melee RDM threads so you can get a real update. Oh crap. I just remembered I have RDM leveled. NOW I'M MAD!!

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Honestly, I wouldn't care if what we were told was happening to RDM was it was being buffed back to solo only, but this spell now goes entirely against the manifesto. This actually would be a way to... as they put it: "Change party members them from mere-mortals to demigods"

As it still stands Developers read this carefully, I'll put it simply.

THIS DOES NOT GO IN LINE WITH "YOUR" MANIFESTO

Perhaps you should go and re-read what you yourself posted and said RDM was.

In this upcoming update so far RDM gets no Enhancing Spells, and all other jobs are getting newer and BETTER enfeebling spells.

[cidbahamut]

We also got no enfeebling goodies, so I feel I've been let down on both ends of the spectrum.

[Shiyo]

It's ok WHM is getting addle :D :D :D :D

I seriously think SE is just attempting to troll the entire community or something, between this, DNC's "update", SCH's lolupdate(grats 2 hour buffs..cool?) and thf's new ability, I'm completely speechless. Every single new ability they're adding for new weak jobs this update doesn't help them at all or make them any more useful or stronger.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It's ok WHM is getting addle :D :D :D :D

An upgrade from SCH getting everything even remotely RDM.

Besides we all knew Addle was going to WHM it was found in the DAT files the same update RDM got it.

[Dmer]

The dev team might as well have added a new JA to WAR that boosts MAB and Cure Potency.

[Insaniac]

We also got no enfeebling goodies, so I feel I've been let down on both ends of the spectrum.
I would blame the RDM melee people for this 100%. QQ and rage for 100+ pages is bound to get someones attention. RDM is NEVER gonna be a good DD so any buff to DD they managed to extort out of the devs was guaranteed to be garbage. It should have been 100 pages crying for something that would get RDMs back into parties.

[Gokku]

but isnt this spell exactly what the rdm community melee party wanted a buff in any fashion even if it does nothing to help rdm as class at all?! its funny i warned people SE has been known to do this give jobs the "buff" they wanted but make sure its not how they wanted it i.e Black belt quests SE made sure 3 kings can be poped and black belt was "easyer" to obtain 2-6mil and a few days changed to 1200-3000 KS and some luck.

[Shiyo]

I would blame the RDM melee people for this 100%. QQ and rage for 100+ pages is bound to get someones attention. RDM is NEVER gonna be a good DD so any buff to DD they managed to extort out of the devs was guaranteed to be garbage. It should have been 100 pages crying for something that would get RDMs back into parties.

This is why listening to the "community" on horrible official forums is the worst idea in the universe. They have no idea what they're talking about and listening to them RUINS video games. Look at WOW, completely ruined because they would give in to every whining moron. This game is going that route.

NONE OF THE NEW JOB UPDATES EVEN HELP ANY OF THE JOBS, AND THESE JOBS NEED ALL THE HELP THEY CAN GET :|

[Insaniac]

This is why listening to the "community" on horrible official forums is the worst idea in the universe. They have no idea what they're talking about and listening to them RUINS video games.

Ehhhhh. I think this is the first case of this since the forums debut. This is the only really crappy update that has been requested by the forum. The others are all SEs fault.

[Gokku]

Ehhhhh. I think this is the first case of this since the forums debut. This is the only really crappy update that has been requested by the forum. The others are all SEs fault.
not true at all , black belt "fix" was all the monks crying about how hard it was to get still.

[Shiyo]

Yeah so they made it harder to get LOL

[Septimus]

not true at all , black belt "fix" was all the monks crying about how hard it was to get still.

The black belt "fix" was a monkey pawed wish, one where you get the wish granted exactly as worded with hideously ironic results. So some MNK wishes on a monkey paw "I wish that land kings were forced spanwed!" And then the wish is granted, but the items that they want were taken off of the NQs.

You have to be really careful about how you word your wishes folks.

[Insaniac]

not true at all , black belt "fix" was all the monks crying about how hard it was to get still.That was not at all the MNKs fault. I don't think that change was even in relation to the black belt complaining. If it was they wouldn't have actually made it harder to get a black belt. It's a case of SE stopping just short of making something good and as a result making something terrible.

[Quetzacoatl]

She's actually right (for once). You don't underestimate people in stupid numbers. Because all things considered, if they bring enough attention to a needless matter, it may actually be considered by the higher-ups.

This is why these forums are a threat to the game and the way it gets adjusted in the eyes of the players who know what they're talking about.

[MarkovChain]

To answer your questions about the new red mage spell Temper...

This is going to be a self-target spell only and cannot be made into an AoE spell via SCH's Accession.

facepalm.gif

[Gokku]

umm its not harder to get people , any 50+ mob drops a KS so now you have tons of mobs to farm for KS and the ks 100% drops the item to spawn the NQ land god and with TH you get a small chance at hq who has a chance at dropping the black belt item.

so now instead of having 1 way KSNM to get a black belt you have 2 KSNM and the 100% chance to kill HQ. they gave you more options cant you all see that!?! *im just kidding i laughed my ass off when i saw what they did to black belt*

lets be honest red mage melee wasnt broken, it wasnt first class and it was proven not to be sub par with good gear but the red mages still wanted a "fix" who knows it could be a 50% double attack that stacks on top of double attack gear / weps so you hit 3 times with joytoy but even then... since its a red only buff your not going to be wanted in any sort of DD situation , if it had stacked with /sch and was party buff DD's would have been frothing at the mouth to get a red in party for insane amounts of double attack.

[Crimson_Slasher]

See thats a case of agreeing to disagree, where as you dislike the change, i like the change, simple as that, the issue is the support rdm faction (especially here) did this to themselves too in some ways. While thinking we didnt need to melee you agreed on many of our points.

We mostly agreed on the facts that:
-Rdm melee was weak and insufficient compared to most jobs
-Rdm lacked sufficient melee buffs/traits/spells
-Rdm lacked a selection of good melee gear

But did that support your cause, or inadvertently ours? Doesnt help when the mage-heavy faction also claimed they were never "not busy" casting cures, nukes, enfeebles, buffs, and swapping gear. They decided this would make us all happy, making our melee enthusiasts happier and stronger, and conversely not making more work for the magic-focused players. In all, you're going overboard on us missing a few spells (cure V/temper/gain-str for sake of argument.)

Meanwhile, they could have easily treated us like war and mnk, just gave us thunder IV, Raise II, and been done with it, but if they did that, then we would have complained anyway. But know what i think is funny? This is almost exactly what i wanted from the next cap, and all its doing is making the same people who complained about and said we wouldnt get any melee updates, to rage out, and start slinging insults. Thats exactly what they are is insults, claiming "People in stupid numbers" caused this, and that only the dumb masses were appeased while the ones who "know what theyre talking about" were punished.

Let me pose a question, how can you attack us as a "minority" and then us being in "stupid numbers" at the same time? Possibly popular opinion has shifted? Either way, melee got a buff, and mageyness got a buff, if you wanna get more buffs/enfeebles, petition them, or...yeah ill take a page from the "Go play a melee job" mindset and say this, go play brd/cor for your buffs/debuffs!

[Patrik]

i keep seeing people say things like "what did you think this spell was what would fix rdm?" or "cure V wont fix rdm" etc.

its NOT about getting a single spell that fixes the whole job, cure V wont "fix" rdm, nor will a multi-target temper. but every small thing that is helpful towards our job (which SE defines as buffer/debuffer) works towards making us a useful job. I'm bothered by this because it doesn't reflect that vision of theirs. as far as it being over powered if it hit others, we don't know what the proc rate is on it. I doubt its a 50% double attack, and will probably vary with enhance skill. While I'm happy with this spell regardless because i do enjoy playing solo rdm for things, i wish we could start gaining a purpose back.

And if your glad that you didn't get a new spell to have to spam on pt members (fresh, haste) you may want to pick another job. That simply is ment to be one of our main roles, as well as keeping up debuffs on mobs.

[Doombringer]

eh, i could take it or leave it... i'm gonna be honest, i wasn't looking forward to another spell to cycle across 4-5 guys.. tedious.. i was sorta hoping it would be sub-targetable but with a massive duration.


sidebar: why don't all buffs have epic durations at this point? is haste ever gonna be overpowered because it lasts to long?


but whatever.. i'll keep my new toy all for myself then <.< you other jobs jelly?


besides.. it's not like i could group up on my rdm less than i already am. before aby i hadn't been in an xp pt on it almost since spampage became the standard and i just put my foot down about not being a whm. i know it's not a popular decision but i don't force it on people either. you never saw me with my flag up and my nin drk pld blu or war sub rockin'..

and i've not used it for endgame since my war learned all it's red triggers...


so whatever, i'll keep doing my thing, keeping it geared as well as i can, and if se wants to throw me more "useless" toys like temper, i'll enjoy them.. my red mage will be ready if it's ever deemed useful again.. til then.... well my war has all its blue triggers now to?

[Supersun]

And if your glad that you didn't get a new spell to have to spam on pt members (fresh, haste) you may want to pick another job. That simply is ment to be one of our main roles, as well as keeping up debuffs on mobs.

I'm 99% sure Haste, Refresh, Cure, Haste, Refresh, Cure was not what SE "meant" for Rdm to do...

[Shiyo]

See thats a case of agreeing to disagree, where as you dislike the change, i like the change, simple as that, the issue is the support rdm faction (especially here) did this to themselves too in some ways. While thinking we didnt need to melee you agreed on many of our points.

We mostly agreed on the facts that:
-Rdm melee was weak and insufficient compared to most jobs
-Rdm lacked sufficient melee buffs/traits/spells
-Rdm lacked a selection of good melee gear

But did that support your cause, or inadvertently ours? Doesnt help when the mage-heavy faction also claimed they were never "not busy" casting cures, nukes, enfeebles, buffs, and swapping gear. They decided this would make us all happy, making our melee enthusiasts happier and stronger, and conversely not making more work for the magic-focused players. In all, you're going overboard on us missing a few spells (cure V/temper/gain-str for sake of argument.)

Meanwhile, they could have easily treated us like war and mnk, just gave us thunder IV, Raise II, and been done with it, but if they did that, then we would have complained anyway. But know what i think is funny? This is almost exactly what i wanted from the next cap, and all its doing is making the same people who complained about and said we wouldnt get any melee updates, to rage out, and start slinging insults. Thats exactly what they are is insults, claiming "People in stupid numbers" caused this, and that only the dumb masses were appeased while the ones who "know what theyre talking about" were punished.

Let me pose a question, how can you attack us as a "minority" and then us being in "stupid numbers" at the same time? Possibly popular opinion has shifted? Either way, melee got a buff, and mageyness got a buff, if you wanna get more buffs/enfeebles, petition them, or...yeah ill take a page from the "Go play a melee job" mindset and say this, go play brd/cor for your buffs/debuffs!
You're bad at this game and will never do 10% of the damage of a real DD, sorry.

[Shiyo]

I'm 99% sure Haste, Refresh, Cure, Haste, Refresh, Cure was not what SE "meant" for Rdm to do...
Before colibri, I hasted, refreshed, cured, debuffed, MBed and CCed mobs. I'm pretty sure this is what they want RDM to be, it was so fun back then :(


I was the ultimate support mage, yes a brd had better buffs but they weren't a "mage". Give me better buffs and superior cures to a /whm to bring RDM back into the playing field. Haste2 , bravery, faith, temper party castable plz.

I've never been a melee RDM, and never will be. I play the job right, meleeing is NOT right. Wanna be a melee RDM? Play NIN, blu, or dnc.

[Doombringer]

You're bad at this game and will never do 10% of the damage of a real DD, sorry.


i did 150-200% the dmg of a "real" dd, and 40% the damage of an excellent dd.

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/03fba78a8f191a4e428b652f2889e4a0.png

just sayin'

[Supersun]

Yeah, but before Colibri it wasn't strange to have a Whm, Blm, AND Rdm in the same party where the DDs pretty much were solely there to SC for the Blm while the Tank held the monster at bay.

Times change and If SE wants to bring back those days it's going to more rely on their monster design then player buffs.

Adding Haste II , Bravery, Faith, and Temper to be party castable is actually going to accomplish the exact opposite of that. We won't be invited to enfeeble or MB or CC, we'll just be invited to cycle 6+ spells on 6 people where we have time for nothing else since we are casting more buffs between buffs and as soon as you are done with your rotation it's time to start again because the first one has worn off.

[Quetzacoatl]

Wanna be a melee RDM? Play NIN, blu, or dnc.

lol didn't you know? DNC's a dead job!

[Heabea]

if this spell is only self target (praying devs are reading this and change it) please don't bother adding it if it's true that the max number of spells is getting close and put something that will have a real use, it adds nothing to rdm solo, this won't make it any easier or harder, if anything it will make things harder since rdm solo depends on slow DoT.

I'd rather pay 100-150 mp per cast and have it on others than have a self target cast

[Hyrist]

*sniffes*

The smell of QQ in the evening is wonderful.

Anyways, Temper is exactly what I expected it to be. A Enspell answer to the problem of sambas conflicting with them.
Still an open ended question on whether or not Temper will conflict with Enspells though.

To the Crying:
Would people have cried as much if it was an Enspell III line, I don't think so.

TP feed argument? Laughable still. What does RDM melee on that you're so concerned about feeding TP too? Fodder mobs are hard now, you heard it here folks.

Manifesto? Buffing issue, I can see, but I'd rather they develop an AoE/Sphere type spell than let this one go party target. I'm a little disappointed this can't be accession-able but it's not unexpected.

Once again inflated expectations cause for a riot that didn't need to happen. I don't expect new party buffs or debuffs to happen until the 99+ range. That also goes for those who are crying about cures too.

I'll believe the 'adjustments' to current debuffs when I see it.


The answers I want to see is more specfics as far as what party buffs they plan in mind?

What new debuff spells they are cooking up, or which ideas they'd like to see more of along the vein.


My recommendation as far as assisting our buffing trick is a 5m JA that allows us to transfer ALL of the buffs we have on ourselves over to one member of the party. That would flatly fit what they're describing in the Manifesto, and it wouldn't be broken due to use limits, nor would it clash with our theme. It would just focus us on buffing one important member of the party to godlike proportions rather than simply being another BRD or COR.

And with Temper, that sort of system works out quite well.

[Shiyo]

Pretty awesome how no one is ever going to use temper so it might as well not exist, since melee rdm is horrible, useless as crap and serves zero point :(

[Kraggy]

Pretty awesome how no one is ever going to use temper so it might as well not exist, since melee rdm is horrible, useless as crap and serves zero point :(
You narrow thinking is amazing, so many blinkered posts in one thread. /clap

[Crimson_Slasher]

Hard to believe me, Shiyo, and Seriha are all sylphnian isnt it? Shows some serious contrasts i suppose, where as me and Seriha begrudgingly agree and are sociable. All Shiyo has done while on the scene was insult and complain about how me liking to melee makes me a bad mage, as if the two are somehow tied together, as if im only meleeing when i should be casting. Ooh well, least i can stalk them if i wanna about their forum conduct!

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Pretty awesome how no one is ever going to use temper so it might as well not exist, since melee rdm is horrible, useless as crap and serves zero point :(

You're getting boring now, head back to BG.. 'kay, thanks!

[Supersun]

It'll be never used?

Not sure about you, but I'll be riding this spell all day in the new WoE areas unless they all happen to be bosses only like #7

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It'll be never used?

Not sure about you, but I'll be riding this spell all day in the new WoE areas unless they all happen to be bosses only like #7

Aren't they locking it to parties only now?

It's a good self-buff no denying it, but it doesn't fit the manifesto is all.

[Insaniac]

And the DD RDMs come out of the woodwork. Thank you for doing your part to keep RDM obsolete. Being able to keep my RDM gear in storage makes a ton of room for cool furniture in my mog safe!!

[Crimson_Slasher]

Nah, WOE is becoming like campaign battles, where all players in said battlefield are treated as a team.

Also how is it "coming out of the woodwork" if theyve been sitting in the lobby chanting already, we arent hiding and waiting for the promised day.

[Septimus]

You're getting boring now, head back to BG.. 'kay, thanks!

Don't try to blame BG for this. Isladar wouldn't put up with that kind of trolling if it was tried there.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Don't try to blame BG for this. Isladar wouldn't put up with that kind of trolling if it was tried there.


Fine!

Would "Head back under your bridge" be better?

[Insaniac]

Nah, WOE is becoming like campaign battles, where all players in said battlefield are treated as a team.

Also how is it "coming out of the woodwork" if theyve been sitting in the lobby chanting already, we arent hiding and waiting for the promised day.

I was referring to this thread specifically. I don't know what happened before Camates post because I didn't read it so if they were all over the thread before that I retract my statement.

I just find it frustrating that a very vocal minority goaded SE into doing something that helps the job in no way other than "sh!ts and gigs lol rdm melee" situations.

[SpankWustler]

I get the feeling this whole awful mess will go full-circle when it turns out this spell has a static 5% potency and doesn't stack with en-spells. EVERYBODY LOSES!

When SE sets out to make a worthless spell, they take no prisoners and leave no village unburned.

[Shiyo]

I was referring to this thread specifically. I don't know what happened before Camates post because I didn't read it so if they were all over the thread before that I retract my statement.

I just find it frustrating that a very vocal minority goaded SE into doing something that helps the job in no way other than "sh!ts and gigs lol rdm melee" situations.

Yeah, it's what pisses me off so much. You know when I melee on RDM? When I'm doing staff trials, because I can't do them on NIN. I melee the mobs to 10%, change to staff, then nuke. Hell, 90% of the time I don't even do that and just cure/refresh/phalanx my BLM buddies who -ga mobs for me :(

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Yeah, it's what pisses me off so much. You know when I melee on RDM? When I'm doing staff trials, because I can't do them on NIN. I melee the mobs to 10%, change to staff, then nuke. Hell, 90% of the time I don't even do that and just cure/refresh/phalanx my BLM buddies who -ga mobs for me :(

People asked for buffs to what a RDM is supposed to be able to do. Whether people do it or not is irrelevant, not one RDM wanted other parts of what RDM can do to suffer.

Skipping the blatant rubbish about balance there was no reason not to allow RDM to melee on mobs that would have no adverse effect on them doing so while allowing them to "Buff the party to demigods." How do SE propose they do that with self-target spells only exactly.


I get the feeling this whole awful mess will go full-circle when it turns out this spell has a static 5% potency and doesn't stack with en-spells. EVERYBODY LOSES!

When SE sets out to make a worthless spell, they take no prisoners and leave no village unburned.

Sounds about right.

[Shiyo]

Buff the party to demigods." How do SE propose they do that with self-target spells only exactly.
Yes, this is why I'm so upset. How do we buff people into demigods and become debuff specialists when you make our good buffs self only and give our good enfeebles to WHM?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Yes, this is why I'm so upset. How do we buff people into demigods and become debuff specialists when you make our good buffs self only and give our good enfeebles to WHM?

Maybe it's me, but I always looked at specialists being able to AoE whereas the capable could only do one target. I can't see why RDM can't get the AoE of enhancing spells. WHM curing such as Esunaga, Silenaga and the Curaga they get, and so on with BLM getting the Nukes, and SCH being able to 'Ga the spells with Accession and Manifestation.

Neither one is overpowered and they each have their niche.

[Supersun]

Aren't they locking it to parties only now?

The no-reservation system will be preserved. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12592-dev1020-Walk-of-Echoes-Battlefield-Adjustments)


Don't try to blame BG for this. Isladar wouldn't put up with that kind of trolling if it was tried there.

Really, because last I checked the only reason the Rdm melee thread got as large as it did was because of all the "BG trolls" that kept posting in it making the subject more and more popular.

With every point that they made saying that Red Mage melee is weak and shouldn't be buffed was one more point for why it should be buffed.

When they parsed that a Rdm only did 40% of a DD it was just more evidence of how far Red Mage has fallen in melee.

All the people from BG that kept rating each other up only served to push the Red Mage melee thread up the list of hot topics garnishing more and more attention for the thread and its subject.

The Red mage melee crowd aren't to "blame" for this update.

BG did far more to give us temper then the melee Rdms could have ever done.

If you hate this update, you only have yourself to blame for your silence. Blindly having faith in SE's manifesto like it was your Bible or something.

It's been stated time and time again. If you hate the idea of Red Mage melee instead of just saying that it sucks and shouldn't be buffed, you should propose alternative suggestions for new spells.

Enfeebling is our best bet for any form of niche in Endgame, but it has some terrible issues that need to be addressed, but instead of people addressing those concerns and posting about those, they are instead adding to the melee post count.

Vote with your post.

That being said though there really are two types of people that post in this thread. Those that care about Red Mage and consider it their main whether they want temper to be party castable or not, and those that want temper to be party castable because they want to receive it on their Blue Mage.

Obviously some voices should be heard over others.

If you care about the job why don't you post about how you want Red Mage to evolve. Myself and a few others have stated our vision for the job, but not many other people have done the same.

If you hate the direction you see Red Mage heading speak up. Silence is what's going to kill the job, not a single melee based spell out of all the spells we have received since level ~60.

[Hayward]

If you want to be a White Mage, here's a hint: Level White Mage. Red Mage is a Utility mage, and melee is part of the arsenal whether you like it or not. I am glad that Temper is self-cast, though I cannot agree that Accession wouldn't have unbalanced things in the slightest. An update that does not have the "Hardcore Endgamer Seal of Approval" can't be all that bad, if you ask me.

[Supersun]

though I cannot agree that Accession wouldn't have unbalanced things in the slightest.

Depends on the potency of the spell. Since it's self targetable there's room for it to be more powerful then SE would have wanted casted on other jobs.

[Duelle]

To answer your questions about the new red mage spell Temper...

This is going to be a self-target spell only and cannot be made into an AoE spell via SCH's Accession.Firstly, I am happy to see we didn't get yet another spell to cycle. At least that has gotten through to the devs, it would seem.

Secondly, I can interpret this one of two ways. Either there's something in the works that'll let RDM project or share their self-buffs with other party members, or RDM melee is about to get a buff to help make it a real contender in the front lines.

Either way, do me a favor, Camate, and ask them devs what they think of an ability to lessen our burden when rebuffing. My idea for a JA called Readiness is somewhere in one of the threads on the RDM boards. Could be useful and yet another step in that direction.

Edit: To prevent misunderstandings - Even with Composure's lengthening the effects of buffs, there's still the issue of time lost when rebuffing. A melee RDM usually has Enspell, Haste, Refresh, Phalanx to recast. Would be nice to have an ability to shorten the time spent rebuffing to give us more uptime doing other things, be it melee, heal or whatever. As I suggested it, Readiness would add the cast times of up to four enhancing spells and cast those on self. It'd be basically us gaining the effect of four spells at the same time (without the burden of multi-casting or spell effects stacking on each other, as Readiness could have its own animation effects). Just tossing that out to you.

[Seriha]

I'm as disappointed as anyone without a stronger enfeebling base being built, but to imply that is solely the result of melee RDMs QQing up a storm is silly. In actuality, some of us were looking for ways to integrate useful enfeebling into melee while making buffing multiple party members easier. Regardless, I doubt Temper took too many man hours to create, nor did tweaking Raise II or Thunder IV. There's also 96-99 and whatever the new merit system will yield. Throw out your ideas if you're so afraid of not being heard, not just sit here and call people you disagree with names.

[Shiyo]

I'm hoping(but don't expect it at all) that merits will fix a lot of the "weaker" jobs right now. Add merits for new uber enfeebles and new uber buffs THAT CAN BE CAST ON OTHER PEOPLE <_<.

[Bigboy]

To answer your questions about the new red mage spell Temper...

This is going to be a self-target spell only and cannot be made into an AoE spell via SCH's Accession.

The devs may not be aware of this, so you can pass this on to them. "The general populace hates melee RDM. Thanks for nothing."

[Insaniac]

I'm as disappointed as anyone without a stronger enfeebling base being built, but to imply that is solely the result of melee RDMs QQing up a storm is silly. In actuality, some of us were looking for ways to integrate useful enfeebling into melee while making buffing multiple party members easier. Regardless, I doubt Temper took too many man hours to create, nor did tweaking Raise II or Thunder IV. There's also 96-99 and whatever the new merit system will yield. Throw out your ideas if you're so afraid of not being heard, not just sit here and call people you disagree with names.

I blame the mentality. Yes RDMs can use swords. So what DRKs get elemental magic. If there was a 130 page thread of 15 DRKs who want to nuke more and it resulted in DRKs getting a new JA that increases MAB but lowers Attack you would be seeing a mirror image of this thread in the DRK forums. RDM isn't now never was and never will be a front line job anywhere but lol situations like abyssea exp and magian trials just like DRK will never be a back line nuker. This spell may have taken the place of a new enfeeble or something that actually gets RDMs invited to parties over a level 70 WHM. Maybe not idk. Maybe SE had this planned for months but I somehow doubt that. 9/10 people with RDM leveled didn't level it with any intention of ever trying to do damage but we are stuck with a DD RDM spell thanks to a vocal minority or maybe just bad development on SEs part. Who knows, either way it's a disappointment to most of us.

[Shiyo]

70 WHM? You learn cure 5 at 61 :p

[Lago]

I have to agree with Shiyo on one thing, which is that I had a lot of fun as a backline mage in pre-ToAU days. Keeping up with the interlocking cycles of refresh and haste was like conducting an orchestra, magic bursting on skillchains (lol remember skillchains?) was a fun little skill test every fight or two when I could slip it in between cures and buffs, and my enfeebles actually landed and felt useful. I loved the way my job changed depending on the party composition, especially on the rare occasions I was backing up a whm and got to cast more offensively.

I also had a lot of fun in the pre-50 range, before staves gave us such a strong incentive to abandon swords and dual buff cycles ate up all the time we could have spent swinging. I never had illusions of being a "top tier" DD and it didn't matter. I wasn't just meleeing, I was debuffing and throwing out backup cures after TP moves, and taking turns opening Fusion for the mnk that just got Raging Fists. I loved feeling like I was contributing to the party a little bit in many different ways.

I think both styles are perfectly reasonable ways to want rdm to play. They both embody what I always felt was the strength and spirit of the rdm job, which was being able to fill the gaps in any party setup; to step into any niche and perform—maybe not as well as a specialist but well enough to get the job done. If I had my wish for rdm we'd go back to those days, when in my opinion rdm was most fun and balanced. To be honest, though, I can't imagine what SE could do to the job to put the genie back in the bottle. It's not just rdm that's changed, it's how we build parties, the way we level, the types of mobs we choose to fight. Forgive the drama, but I worry that the Vana'diel that my ideal red mage could exist in might be long gone. I just keep waiting for SE to pull a rabbit out of a hat somehow, and I keep being disappointed.

[Seriha]

I blame the mentality. Yes RDMs can use swords. So what DRKs get elemental magic. If there was a 130 page thread of 15 DRKs who want to nuke more and it resulted in DRKs getting a new JA that increases MAB but lowers Attack you would be seeing a mirror image of this thread in the DRK forums. RDM isn't now never was and never will be a front line job anywhere but lol situations like abyssea exp and magian trials just like DRK will never be a back line nuker. This spell may have taken the place of a new enfeeble or something that actually gets RDMs invited to parties over a level 70 WHM. Maybe not idk. Maybe SE had this planned for months but I somehow doubt that. 9/10 people with RDM leveled didn't level it with any intention of ever trying to do damage but we are stuck with a DD RDM spell thanks to a vocal minority or maybe just bad development on SEs part. Who knows, either way it's a disappointment to most of us.

Then make a 50,000 page thread about back-line buffs. Should be pretty easy if you're such an overwhelming majority.

The flaw in your mentality is the presumption that you're speaking for anyone who doesn't happen to post here. Can you speak Japanese, Italian, Spanish, German, French, and whatever other language people who play this game speak? Have you polled their desires and experiences in a manner we can look to without thinking its fabricated? Is the lack of desire to melee fueled more by the lack of tools/efficiency, feeling more like you had a guaranteed spot as a caster, or maybe just going against it out of spite?

Whenever I speak for melee, it's largely to make a viable option for those interested in doing so. It's not about screwing the back-liners, tempting as it can be at times, but more in fitting to the job concept. I know that premise is LOL to some, and I'm not really interested in rehashing that debate, but it is what it is, just as SE chooses to add what they add to game. Even if Temper wasn't present, you have no guarantee there would be something else in its stead. It's not like RDM isn't a job creeping up on nearly a decade that's seen very little thrown its way since initial adjustments. The melee camp knows damn well what it feels like to be left out, especially for a long time. All I can say is we have cookies and kool-aid in the back. In-house entertainment might not be too great, though.

[Doombringer]

I have to agree with Shiyo on one thing, which is that I had a lot of fun as a backline mage in pre-ToAU days. Keeping up with the interlocking cycles of refresh and haste was like conducting an orchestra, magic bursting on skillchains (lol remember skillchains?) was a fun little skill test every fight or two when I could slip it in between cures and buffs, and my enfeebles actually landed and felt useful. I loved the way my job changed depending on the party composition, especially on the rare occasions I was backing up a whm and got to cast more offensively.

I also had a lot of fun in the pre-50 range, before staves gave us such a strong incentive to abandon swords and dual buff cycles ate up all the time we could have spent swinging. I never had illusions of being a "top tier" DD and it didn't matter. I wasn't just meleeing, I was debuffing and throwing out backup cures after TP moves, and taking turns opening Fusion for the mnk that just got Raging Fists. I loved feeling like I was contributing to the party a little bit in many different ways.

I think both styles are perfectly reasonable ways to want rdm to play. They both embody what I always felt was the strength and spirit of the rdm job, which was being able to fill the gaps in any party setup; to step into any niche and perform—maybe not as well as a specialist but well enough to get the job done. If I had my wish for rdm we'd go back to those days, when in my opinion rdm was most fun and balanced. To be honest, though, I can't imagine what SE could do to the job to put the genie back in the bottle. It's not just rdm that's changed, it's how we build parties, the way we level, the types of mobs we choose to fight. Forgive the drama, but I worry that the Vana'diel that my ideal red mage could exist in might be long gone. I just keep waiting for SE to pull a rabbit out of a hat somehow, and I keep being disappointed.

this was pretty much my experience as well. i've never wanted to JUST melee on rdm. i got to 75 back in those old setups and legitimately enjoyed it. i had no problem enfeebling and doing short cycles of refresh/haste (i would typically share haste with the whm) with the occasional "oh sh*t" cure or sleep.

back then it felt like i was legitimately doing something nobody else could. obviously refresh was huge for keeping a party running, but this was also back when fights took long enough to justify paralyze, blind, and slow. even gravity sometimes. nowadays.. it's MAYBE worthwhile to dia something as it gets pulled.. but one strong DD in an xp alliance can almost 1shot xp mobs ANYWAY..

not to mention back in the time of skillchains and magic bursts, the tank was usually left out, casting load has always hurt rdm's tp gain, but it also hurt tanks. i would often do a secondary skillchain with the tank, or sometimes even a sam who had blatently outrun his sc partner.

for a while rdm really was a role filler, you could stand in at any slot. i even tanked a few gods with my ls just for shits and giggles..


but at some point it turned into "be a whm or we all hate you" and it honestly just made me bitter. fuck that, if i wanted to be a whm i'd have been a whm. after toau came along i got most of my merits solo or on warrior.



on the upside, at least PART of why rdm got so pidgeonholed was a lack of healers. now that whm is a bandwagon job, i feel there IS room for rdm to stretch it's legs again. i am legitimately hopefull.

[Supersun]

and it resulted in DRKs getting a new JA that increases MAB but lowers Attack you would be seeing a mirror image of this thread in the DRK forums.

I didn't know Temper lowered our magic accuracy in the process...

[Insaniac]

Controversy and bad ideas = hot topic. Post a good idea about RDM and 3 people will stop by and say "Hey that's a pretty good idea"

I wasn't basing what I said on the posts on this forum. I hardly even read the RDM melee thread because it's so terrible. I'm basing it on my belief that at least 9/10 people who wanted a melee job leveled a melee job instead of RDM. RDM was actually the first job I leveled into the 40s and by level 30 I had realized how terrible it was at melee and I wasn't like "WTF I NEED MORE MELEE POWER NOW!" I said "Hmm I guess this isn't really what I'm supposed to do on this job." Since I haven't played with more than 10 RDMs who even suggested that they were thinking about DDing in my many years of playing this game I can say pretty confidently that the majority of RDMs accept the role of a back line mage.

And yes you are right I can't guarantee that this wouldn't have been what SE did even without the melee RDM threads. I said that in my own post but I definitely think they should have spent their time and money on something else and would probably have been more likely to do that if there wasn't

[Insaniac]

I didn't know Temper lowered our magic accuracy in the process...It wastes MP and casting time to improve your ability to do something no one in your party wants you to do.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I blame the mentality. Yes RDMs can use swords. So what DRKs get elemental magic. If there was a 130 page thread of 15 DRKs who want to nuke more and it resulted in DRKs getting a new JA that increases MAB but lowers Attack you would be seeing a mirror image of this thread in the DRK forums. RDM isn't now never was and never will be a front line job anywhere but lol situations like abyssea exp and magian trials just like DRK will never be a back line nuker. This spell may have taken the place of a new enfeeble or something that actually gets RDMs invited to parties over a level 70 WHM. Maybe not idk. Maybe SE had this planned for months but I somehow doubt that. 9/10 people with RDM leveled didn't level it with any intention of ever trying to do damage but we are stuck with a DD RDM spell thanks to a vocal minority or maybe just bad development on SEs part. Who knows, either way it's a disappointment to most of us.

DRK gets a JA that increases both normal attack and magical attack.

Temper doesn't gimp anything on RDM as far as SE have said so your logic is stupid.

As for your 9/10 didn't level it to melee, if they levelled it to only nuke should have levelled BLM, Cure WHM, Buff BRD or COR.... The bonus of RDM is it's multiple jobs of which like it or not melee is one.

Also I'd like your proof of 9/10 didn't level it for such otherwise I call bullshit.

[Insaniac]

DRK gets a JA that increases both normal attack and magical attack.

Temper doesn't gimp anything on RDM as far as SE have said so your logic is stupid.

As for your 9/10 didn't level it to melee, if they levelled it to only nuke should have levelled BLM, Cure WHM, Buff BRD or COR.... The bonus of RDM is it's multiple jobs of which like it or not melee is one.

Also I'd like your proof of 9/10 didn't level it for such otherwise I call bullshit.lol at calling bullshit on something like that. I don't even really care. I'm just bored cause it's tuesday and icefilms is down. People are free to play a job like they want of course but just know that you are annoying people so you can have your fun if you do this in any situations that aren't the ones I mentioned before.. /goodbye silly thread~

[Karbuncle]

It could be worse.

You could have Bully. Which as it sounds will probably only target the THF, and last about 45 seconds, with very low proc rate on NMs.

Its like they enjoy contradicting themselves. Wanting THF to be useful in party situations, Then give them abilities useless in such situations (THF dont tank in alliance situations... or party of 6 for that matter unless you're in a party of 5WHMs and a THF).

Then they say RDMs are masters of enhancing their Allies, and give them a self-target only non-accession Enhancing Spell.

INb4 WHM gets Temperga at level 96.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

lol at calling bullshit on something like that. I don't even really care. I'm just bored cause it's tuesday and icefilms is down. People are free to play a job like they want of course but just know that you are annoying people so you can have your fun if you do this any any situations that aren't the ones I mentioned before.. /goodbye silly thread~

Wow! Just wow!

NEWSFLASH!! RDM's do have brains, they know when NOT to get too close to the mob. I know trolls don't think but this is a fact.

You have no proof to back up your "claim" I leveled RDM in the beginning because I liked the aspect of a melee-mage before they even added BLU. Do I melee in a party now? no! because I know as it stands they can't, would I if a good buff was added? Yes, so long as there was little risk of dangerous TP's, crippling spells (silence, break etc) and so on.

Apparently though the anti-melee RDM crowd bark to loud without actually reading any actual posts which to be honest I can't understand what fun they'd find in it.

[Supersun]

It could be worse.

You could have Bully. Which as it sounds will probably only target the THF, and last about 45 seconds, with very low proc rate on NMs.

I though that Bully was supposed to be Thief's version of a mini-2h.

[Kari]

To answer your questions about the new red mage spell Temper...

This is going to be a self-target spell only and cannot be made into an AoE spell via SCH's Accession.

Oh, lovely.
Wait, wasn't SE telling us that we're approaching the limit for how many spells can be in the game?
Sounds like a great time to make garbage spells.

[Shiyo]

Oh, lovely.
Wait, wasn't SE telling us that we're approaching the limit for how many spells can be in the game?
Sounds like a great time to make garbage spells.

Omg madoka magica sig ^-^ <333333333

[Scuro]

I think this is hilarious, SE announces that they want RDM to be a buffer of players to make them demigods, and then they go and make temper a self target spell that can't be given out to any party members. Great, I'm glad you guys can't make up your mind on what you want RDM to be, and making a spell that has such potential to be completely useless because it will be a cold day in hell when RDM is actually used as a DD. /slow-clap

[Joel]

To answer your questions about the new red mage spell Temper...

This is going to be a self-target spell only and cannot be made into an AoE spell via SCH's Accession.

Seriously? This wouldn't be too broken if it were able to affect other people, hell, I'm surprised that it isn't AoE naturally, and you're saying it'll be single target? I am dissapoint.

[Scuro]

If they wanted to see a spell like this ACTUALLY get used, they should of gave it to BLU, just saying. Cuz there is no way this spell will actually be used in a manner that benefits a party. I mean if they made it single target like Refresh and Haste cycles, wow would of sucked for some RDMs, but hell at least that would of made them more useful. Yet its a SELF-target.... really? /slow-clap

[hiko]

some stupid-pro-mele*: we dont care about more enhancing/enfeebling we want to mele
SE dev: ok here come a spell that buff rdm mele but will have no use in any PT situation

are stupid-pro-mele* happy now? they got what they asked for


* i dont say that all pro-mele are stupid

[Zatias]

I was actually thinking the same thing as Krabuncle ;P

WHM always got -ra spells (barfira, boosts, etc) while RDM's are self target. WHM will probably get AoE Temper XD

Derp.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

If they wanted to see a spell like this ACTUALLY get used, they should of gave it to BLU, just saying. Cuz there is no way this spell will actually be used in a manner that benefits a party. I mean if they made it single target like Refresh and Haste cycles, wow would of sucked for some RDMs, but hell at least that would of made them more useful. Yet its a SELF-target.... really? /slow-clap

BLU has more than enough, they're more or less stealing anything that belongs to RDM anyway, and now I hear they want Phalanx, Enspells and Composure..... Really!?!

I'm surprised I haven't seem: What!? DRK is getting an aura steal spell!!!!!! BLU should get that not DRK.

[Duelle]

but isnt this spell exactly what the rdm community melee party wanted a buff in any fashion even if it does nothing to help rdm as class at all?This is baby step #2 towards what the melee camp wants. We'll see if the remaining steps (streamlining of magic melee, increased weapon proficiency, increased access to WS, more gear having RDM in the list of jobs capable of wearing it, playing with numbers until the desired DPS comes out the other side relative to other jobs) are in the pipes for our job.

If you wanted to get insta-invites through buff-botting...idk sux 2 b u? No one has still answered why any of us would ever want another spell to cycle, by the way. Cycling spells suck. "Buff-share/copy" mechanics might be in the works, for all we know. That would actually go in place with the manifesto without pissing off the melee camp.

PS: You're acting like this is the end of the world. I'm sure the devs are working on further adjustments instead of scratching themselves or playing the WoW collectible card game.

[Lago]

I'm surprised I haven't seem: What!? DRK is getting an aura steal spell!!!!!! BLU should get that not DRK.

You know that's because BLU already has two such spells, right?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

You know that's because BLU already has two such spells, right?

That'd be it.. and Damn, I made a spelling mistake in the other post and didn't notice. :(

[cidbahamut]

No one has still answered why any of us would ever want another spell to cycle, by the way. Cycling spells suck. "Buff-share/copy" mechanics might be in the works, for all we know. That would actually go in place with the manifesto without pissing off the melee camp.


Because I'd prefer to have a spell that can be useful in lots of content rather than get one that I'll only use when I try to farm Dark Rings.

Your complaints shouldn't be "DON'T GIVE US BUFF SPELLS", so much as it should be "Make buffs natively AoE and give them lengthy durations", that way everyone wins. Unless of course you really just didn't want to contribute anything to your party, in which case I don't know why you'd care if it was self-cast or not because you're clearly aiming to do everything solo.

[Rorrick]

So why is Temper, with its undefined potency and duration, a self-target only spell, while Corsair has access to a 25% Double Attack enhancement that affects the entire party?

I'm not exactly keen on yet another buff I need to cycle cast (RDM has the highest enhancing skill in the game; why are all our buffs self-target or single-target only?), but the claim that this would allow RDM to make players into demigods seems somewhat nonsensical when you compare Temper to Fighter's Roll and Ifrit's favor.

[hiko]

I was actually thinking the same thing as Krabuncle ;P

WHM always got -ra spells (barfira, boosts, etc) while RDM's are self target. WHM will probably get AoE Temper XD

Derp.
just like whm got phalanxara and enspellra.

[Lago]

just like whm got phalanxara and enspellra.

Oh, you're right. That was smn. Hmm, wonder what they've got in store for Cait Sith. ;P

[Duelle]

Your complaints shouldn't be "DON'T GIVE US BUFF SPELLS", so much as it should be "Make buffs natively AoE and give them lengthy durations", that way everyone wins.Notice my complaints are entirely fueled by the knowledge that RDM's theme is less skill at magic than WHM and BLM in exchange for skill with the sword. This means that AoE spells are instantly out of the question if it can be avoided (notice how past Diaga we have no AoE native to our job). That's why I'd be in favor of a buff copy/share mechanic if it comes down to it. Also, if you actually paid attention to what I've said in the past, I've mentioned buffing should be trivial to cast and maintain. No significant part of my combat time should be consumed by buffing when I'm in the front lines...hence my constant mention of "cycles have no place in front line play". I've argued for removing buffing altogether when front-lining during earlier iterations of the debate because, frankly, I know SE will never make Refresh and Haste instant cast or natively AoE-able. They chose the wrong job to try to attach the buffbot label, and in situations like that it easily shows.

I even concurred with the mention of Greater Blessings from WoW earlier in this very thread as an example, because I don't mind buffing at all...provided my entire gameplay is NOT centered on just casting buff spells or involves any cycles. On my pally all I had to do was set pally power to whatever buff I was assigned to keep on the raid by the raid leader and away I went; 30-minute duration buffs that were instant cast, thus not interrupting on the amount of time I spent hitting things with a light-imbued hammer and focusing on DPS. And a second Refresh (Replenishment) that stacks with my class' version of Refresh (Greater Blessing of Wisdom) that affects the raid only if I use one of my signature attacks (Judgement) on a mob. That is how a sword & magic hybrid with buffs is supposed to play. Not like a "cycle mage" that stands in the back line "supporting" the healer and mezzing, neglecting an entire third of the job's concept, build, and archetype.

[Shiyo]

Please level another job and stop trying to fit a square into a round hole, wtf.

[Greatguardian]

This thread is hilarious.

RdMelee got a buff. A decent buff. OAT on Almace? Nice.

Broheims got a problem with Melee-only buffs? Maybe make your presence known here outside the 1% of forum time devoted to complaining about updates. Red Mage got Temper because, aside from maybe 5 Magical Red Mages who post here, all of the posting on this subforum is Melee-oriented.

You have people like Duelle quite literally calling for massive casting nerfs to Red Mage. Removal of spells, reduction in casting ranges, even Addenda-esque stances which have been the bane of Scholar since its inception.

If you give a crap about the direction of your job, maybe you should show up and make your feelings known more often. When all the Devs are seeing is a huge melee camp sitting around asking for sword updates, with a mouthpiece or two even demanding nerfs to casting and only the same 4-5 posters refuting that nonsense, we're going to end up with things like Temper.

With that said, the update doesn't really bother me. Everyone knew the day Addle was released that White Mage was also on the spell (.DAT mining, etc). A quick-magic JA is pretty darn awesome, and will definitely see use. Overall we didn't really gain much (outside the melee faction), but we didn't lose anything either. Red Mage is not exactly in an overly poor position to begin with, outside of Abyssea. With any luck, 95-tier Endgame content will become relevant enough for people to really start to move out of the Abyssean midgame.

[cidbahamut]

Notice my complaints are entirely fueled by the knowledge that RDM's theme is less skill at magic than WHM and BLM in exchange for skill with the sword. This means that AoE spells are instantly out of the question if it can be avoided (notice how past Diaga we have no AoE native to our job).

Ruling out AoE is foolish. SE may have settled on that as a design choice but that doesn't make it ok.

Folks are stamping their feet about not wanting another buff they can cast on others because they'll have to cycle it.
SE's refusal to allow us AoE buffs means whatever buffs we can cast on others will have to be cycled.
The solution isn't to make all our buffs self-cast only, the solution is to address the need to cycle buffs.
This is accomplished by making buffs AoE and giving them lengthy durations.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Please level another job and stop trying to fit a square into a round hole, wtf.

Whenever you post on this site remember this:

You're a troll.... GO AWAY!!!

You never even levelled RDM before Abyssea so what the hell do you know.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Ruling out AoE is foolish. SE may have settled on that as a design choice but that doesn't make it ok.

Folks are stamping their feet about not wanting another buff they can cast on others because they'll have to cycle it.
SE's refusal to allow us AoE buffs means whatever buffs we can cast on others will have to be cycled.
The solution isn't to make all our buffs self-cast only, the solution is to address the need to cycle buffs.
This is accomplished by making buffs AoE and giving them lengthy durations.

Even duration when AoE isn't bothersome. Casting Haste, Refresh and Phalanx II as an example everytime it's due just once is better than it is now.

[Shiyo]

Uh, I was level 61 RDM in 2003 before I quit for WOW for 3 years? It was my first job.

If you hate cycling buffs, also, please, level another job. If you want to be a herpa derp DD who can afk and just do nothing, level MNK.

[Nefertiri]

So why is Temper, with its undefined potency and duration, a self-target only spell, while Corsair has access to a 25% Double Attack enhancement that affects the entire party?

It's only 24% at the very most. (When XI is rolled and WAR is in the group or commodore tricorne's effect proced.) Yet COR is also pretty shunned in Abyssea, so, well, yeah. I don't think having Temper castable on other members would really help anything in that regard.

Ahh, Red Mage...maybe it's time that job got a small overhaul of sorts. Having Temper is a step in the direction of the...more interesting. In my very humble opinion, I think Red Mage SHOULD receive better close-combat abilities. They are meant to be jacks of all trades, no...? Versatility is supposed to be the name of the game, you should be able to nuke, heal, pull out your weapon or whatever you choose, but mostly everyone regards them as a WHM clone (and frankly that's just a tad boring, if you wanna stick to strict healing that badly, why not just level WHM?) - and, if you really think about it, how does that make them any different from SCH, who can also cast both schools of magic?

The difference is in the potential dagger/swordplay, or at least its meant to be. While strict player-based pigeonholing and unwillingness to attempt the more unorthodox aspects of gameplay is certainly a problem, SE has done little to reinforce the ideal RDM image. Perhaps that will change soon, though.

Perhaps the following will come across as the "right ideas." They're uh...kinda lame though~

-Grant RDM the Accuracy Bonus trait.

-Allow RDM to self-skillchain, at which point they can, ideally, magic burst off themselves. (If BLU can do it...)

-Grant RDM access to the more coveted weaponskills, such as Vorpal Blade, and Dancing Edge for daggers.

-New, unique lines of enspells(which, by all good reason, should be one of RDMs selling points.) Change tier-II enspells to work with both multiple hits and off-hand weapons. As they are, they provide nothing that the original enspells didn't. Aside from lol10magicevasiondifference. Certainly no justification for allowing a RDM to get to the front lines.

-Add potency bonuses to the damage enspells do, as well as giving RDM the ability to augment them to enfeeble an enemy as well, possibly via a new JA of some kind. Enfire = Virus, Enblizzard = Paralyze, and so on.

Those are just a few lame ideas on how the job's versatility can truly be expanded upon. If you want RDM to be a less-effective (and slightly more stylish) copy of WHM, then by all means...continue. Should their roles expand in different directions, however, I hope people learn to appreciate and enjoy it.

(P.S: Many people seem to be forgetting Composure. Which not only lengthens durations of buffs on yourself, but enhances your physical accuracy. Composure + Temper = ????)

(P.S.S: The above are strictly opinions of a crazy person, try not to lose your...Temper, over it. *snark*)

[Lago]

I was fine with cycling 2 spells. 3 was a bit cumbersome. 4 would be ridiculous. More is not necessarily better. I mean, I like ice cream but I'd hate it if I never got to eat other things.

[Lago]

We will be able to do that with the coming update, close a skillchain and nuke with Spontaneity. That job ability is going to be so much fun in it's uses.

I think you mean double MB with Spantaneity, sir. ;3

[Stylin]

I think you mean double MB with Spantaneity, sir. ;3

That too. I meant to delete that when I saw "RDM should self-SC" in there too. In my defense I just woke up and missed that detail. lol

[CapriciousOne]

And that's when you're replaced with a bard or a white mage. On the plus side it gives you plenty of time to post cool stories on forums.

You missing the point but whatever and when I am posting on forums i am usually at work with some free time after completing tasks in transition to new tasks as details get hammered out. It really doesnt matter anyway because u miss the point of having the SCROLL OF WARP meaning I already have left anyway to go back to soloing. Being smart and being a smart a$$ arent the same things, you should learn the difference.

[Rayik]

Please level another job and stop trying to fit a square into a round hole, wtf.

The irony, it's almost hurts.

[Quetzacoatl]

-Add potency bonuses to the damage enspells do, as well as giving RDM the ability to augment them to enfeeble an enemy as well, possibly via a new JA of some kind. Enfire = Virus, Enblizzard = Paralyze, and so on.

Camate already said the devs weren't going to do this. :/

[Swords]

Eh, I think folks are getting a little too bent out of shape over this. People are acting like they were truly expecting SE to hold out on their promises after all these years when they damn well knew better. Besides Temper isn't exactly news, SE said over a year ago they had made plans to increase viability in the front lines, for all we know this spells been in the works well before the job manifesto was released and they were just waiting for this level cap to implement it. Will it increase our abilities to the point where we can melee regularly, doubtful. Will it give RDM back it's niche in a party setting, no. Will this be the last update RDM ever receives for anything, definitely not.

I would just cool your jet's, wait for the game to move out of that n00b hole called Abyssea, then all of you can go back to your previous life like the ToAU days. If Temper doesn't offer anything to RDM then it's essentially unchanged, just ignore it like RDM got absolutely nothing at all. Really everyone would have been like "Big Surprise..." if RDM didn't get anything anyways, but they're sounding like their dreams stomped on because of a melee buff that "wouldn't change anything" or they "would never use".

On a side note however, I am finding it very ironic that people are so driven to put down the original RDM archtype, but take the new one given in the manifesto so seriously when SE even stated at the bottom that these ideas were not set in stone.

[Sp1cyryan]

Wow, what did everyone eat for breakfast?

The only thing to worry about when it comes to Temper is if it will not even be worth it from not working in the offhand, enspells, not working on WSs, something weird, etc.

This whole wave of "this is a joke", "get Devs who play the game", "RDM is not a melee", "what are they even doing over there", etc. Is really just uncalled for and completely ridiculous. So how about you get nothing next time and let RDM have more of a reason to sit in your MH. You have enspells for meleeing, and just because YOU do not like to melee on RDM or feel it should not does not mean the Devs or the rest of the community needs to cater to the current perception of the game and take them away since "RDM DUN MELEE GUIZ1111". Overall, reading a few pages from when they said it was RDMONRY I have to say the responses from you people (yeah! you people!) was rather pathetic and you should be a bit embarrassed.

INB4 'adjustment manifesto said blah blah blah'. SE has said a lot of things about RDM over the years, and just because they recently said they envision (best enspell ever!) them making others "demigods" does not mean anything else they ever said goes out the window.

[Malacite]

To answer your questions about the new red mage spell Temper...

This is going to be a self-target spell only and cannot be made into an AoE spell via SCH's Accession.

That is some seriously epic fail...

[Sp1cyryan]

That is some seriously epic fail...

Beeeeecause..?

[Shiyo]

I'm pretty sure anyone who isn't completely insane can realize why it's epic fail.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Thank heavens for the block user function.

[Duelle]

Ruling out AoE is foolish. SE may have settled on that as a design choice but that doesn't make it ok.Tell that to the developers, not me. It may not be the same guys that took years to realize "hmm, maybe call wyvern as a 2 hour ability was a bad idea after all...", but their influence certainly lingers, and the fact that there's been changes in the developer team yet nothing of substantial change outside of more jugs for BST, avatar favors and abyssea as a whole tells me they're sticking to their guns. They're not going to suddenly say "RDM should get AoE versions of their buffs" (which is as likely as DRK getting getting changed into a tank job); at least, not in -ga or -ra form. Hence my support for the buff sharing/spread/copy idea.

On a personal note, -gas and -ras don't make sense on RDM. Again, the concept of RDM shows it forgoes higher tier spells in exchange for martial prowess. -gas and -ras easily fall into that category.

[saevel]

Thank heavens for the block user function.

OMG thank you, I didn't know it even existed.

Just added Shiyo and will add more as they appear.

I'm up for a healthy discussion with anyone, will ever debate the pro / con of just about anything. But I will not waste my time with trolls. I find the best way to deal with them is to ignore them and deny them the attention they crave. If everyone just ignored the trolls they'd eventually die off and go away.

[Sp1cyryan]

I'm pretty sure anyone who isn't completely insane can realize why it's epic fail.

This is not a case of a certain someone saying they are too good to change gear. That is real fail, and this is down to opinion at the moment. So I am not sure why that makes those who are not opposed to this being single target insane and epic fail.

Then again I guess I lost my mind a long time ago.

[Malacite]

How is Temper being single target only not a total failure, especially after SE going on about how RDM was going to be master enhancers?

Of themselves? Yeah, because that's oh so useful in a party situation. It's not the Accession clause (that I don't mind, it's RDM only after all so it shouldn't AoE) it's the self-cast only that's complete nonsense.

So hurray for yet another trash spell to "help" frontline RDM in lieu of addressing RDM's actual problems in that area.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Square gives jobs things to make them more rounded at times, even if they dont make sense, the difference, is while this doesnt help YOUR party setting, its by FAR more useful than some blunders they have been guilty of. So quickly we forget shield mastery with our D,E,F defensive ratings. But i guess you prefer the willy wonka approach, rather than being thankful you got another nuke, and possibly more traits, and the recent buff to fastcast, you all just see this as getting nothing. So it makes me happy to say it this way. "ITS ALL THERE, BLACK AND WHITE, CLEAR AS CRYSTAL! YOU GET NOTHING, YOU LOSE! GOOD DAY SIR!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZubQ

Now that we can get over the crying, im going to say this. You get nothing aside from a new nuke and an extra raise. However your ability to play a mage rdm has not been altered in any way, because as you all say, you dont want to melee anyway, and this did not take anything out of the mage side to implement. Its a waste of mp to cast? waste of gil to buy? Heres a thought, dont buy it, dont cast it, and certainly dont complain that they had atleast the thought to give you a gift and to not retire your job or its functions as you like. You kind of people are the ones that complain at getting a gift-card for your birthday, well we all would like money, its the thought that counts. They saw some of the community unhappy, felt it was a justified desire, and improved it, now granted now, other memebrs of the RDM community is unhappy, but not everyone is unhappy. Honestly all i got to say is if you want to be a buff job, go bard, and if this is the changeover to start the reign of rdm melee glory, then allow me to be the first to say it in anticipation, its been a long time coming and i know a lot of the pro-melee croud want to say it, but im saying it now.

Shut up, nobody cares if you want to mage better, its been a long time since redmage got anything mage related for content, clearly they dont care about your woes, and you should just go level another job and leave us to play our job right.

That felt good, that may not be the case right now, but with substituting of mage for melee, its something ive heard too many times, how does it make you feel to read that line? well you are mad now so im betting it pissed you off. Let it sit quietly and fester a few years, they said you can buff, but you cant do that, they gave you access to enhancing gear and nothing to use it on, you should throw out that gear and level brd or cor.

All im doing is treating the anti-melee croud the way we have been treated for years, how about you take that promise to be a buffer, like we took the promise that we would be able to use our swords, and sit on it, wait a few years, maybe then they will chose to acknowledge you. Rant over.

[cidbahamut]

Too many people in here are bitter and out for vengeance rather than intelligent game design. Take your personal vendettas and collectively shove them.

[saevel]

Just look at the people making the snide / trolling comments, seriously. You have BLU's, WAR's, MNKs, NINs, DNCs and every other job in the spectrum crying and throwing a hissy fit that they aren't getting temper *cough* I mean RDM isn't going to be able to cast it on them. They point and blame the older RDM's for it, so guys be prepared for some real back-lashing going on in-game after this update. I'm come to the conclusion that these people would prefer SE to delete the job RDM from the game then for SE to buff the melee aspect of RDM. Once your faced with that kind of ignorance you can't rationalize with them, just click ignore and go on your way, not worth the effort to respond anymore.

[Supersun]

I know, it hardly makes sense that people are this adamant about Temper being self-cast only when not even us receiving shield mastery got half as much attention.

[Sp1cyryan]

How is Temper being single target only not a total failure, especially after SE going on about how RDM was going to be master enhancers?

Of themselves? Yeah, because that's oh so useful in a party situation. It's not the Accession clause (that I don't mind, it's RDM only after all so it shouldn't AoE) it's the self-cast only that's complete nonsense.

So hurray for yet another trash spell to "help" frontline RDM in lieu of addressing RDM's actual problems in that area.

Generally people who don't like something will actually present an argument instead of "FUX MAN DIZ SUX!" and then the opposite opinions might say something.

The spell is not even out yet so you can't call it trash with any justification or creditability. Stop being so ignorant for five seconds and we will all thank you for doing something right.

[SpankWustler]

I know, it hardly makes sense that people are this adamant about Temper being self-cast only when not even us receiving shield mastery got half as much attention.

A lot of the new job traits have been given out seemingly at random, and most are useless even on the "right" job, so that probably just felt like par for the course for most folks.

Also, this topic isn't even a discussion about game mechanics or anything else anymore, just people yelling nonsense at each other. It's less than startling that Red Mage received a new self-cast spell to enhance it's melee damage. Even if Temper is 100% Double Attack, it won't be the ridiculous buff that some of the Coalition for Hitting Things with Things while in Red Trousers members would like to see.

It would have been neat for this spell to work on party members, but this outcome was way more likely. Almace users just got a cool spell. Good on them. I don't see what the fuss is about.

[Quetzacoatl]

To be quite honest, my stance on the whole RDM Melee situation is, I'm neutral to it. And after looking into Temper being self-target only, it made me contemplate a few things, especially in my outrage thinking that we still won't be getting a spot in abyssea because of our lack of buffing options on the backline.

I'm condensing a bit of this in hide/show boxes to reduce "tl;dr" syndrome and "ZOMG WALL OF TEXT" disorder. I don't want to double-post, so I provided a summary at the bottom if you want skip the big details. In any case, I doubt the Community Reps want to spend the time to read this post in particular, but you know what? To hell with it, I'm doing it anyway.

Foreword


Issue Number 1:


Issue Number 2:


Issue Number 3:



In short, There needs to be a sort of middle ground to encourage switching between frontline and backline duties, and most of all an incentive that will allow seasoned people and endgame groups to say, "bring your Melee weapon too, we'll need you using [insert ability here] for this beast." Therefore, we'll have to see a lot to put into Red Mage to make frontline capabilities actually desireable.

Abilities like Spontaneity and Fast Cast give Red Mage slightly more room to breathe after finishing their enhancing magic cycles of Refresh, Haste, Phalanx 2 and so forth. If done right, Red Mages should be able to do more than just stand around waiting for the next round of Enhancing Magic cycles for the party.

Then, to add support damage on the front lines, more Light-Armor DD Gear variety is needed to push its currently low Melee output into respectable but not overpowering damage. Some of the pieces RDM gets are often outdated for the level 90 era to be worth using much of, so a little more freedom of gear choice could help. We shared a good amount of gear with BLUs, THFs, NINs, and DNCs, so why not this time?

Finally, Enspells need a major overhaul in which they function, like adding the ability to reduce Enfeeble Resistance with them. If we want to be able to see them used, they should fulfill a niche that's worth taking advantage of on the frontlines. I don't know what SE was thinking when they made the Enspell 2 line single-hit only, but its limits are detrimental to their relevance. Making the Enspell line provide some kind of niche practical enough to be worth using in an alliance situation should be something to consider as well. If it doesn't, well, clearly it's just there to deal damage, and any other damage dealer can provide that.

So if all this can be implemented somehow, we could see some potential. Otherwise, I'm just going to sit back with the other mages, cast with my Elemental Staves, and just go whack at something as either another job, like my Caladbolg DRK, or solo on Red Mage at the end of the day. Because that's always more appropriate than just poking your sword at Orthrus, Alfard or Apademak, while hardly making a dent.

And Going semi off-topic, but in mentioning thunder-based enfeebles, I would like to throw in an idea for a new exclusive Enfeeble: Seizure. It should be Thunder Elemental, and it could provide some interesting use- "Sends the target into a self-inflicting mental shock." We haven't really seen a stand-alone enfeeble that is thunder-based and would make a target hurt itself. You have to admit, though...it would be pretty hilarious. I wouldn't mind it having a 20%-25% base proc rate, personally. Not to mention, it's something that could add some support damage if the RDM decides to Melee. It's an idea to consider for the 99 update.

I typed all this on my cell phone going on a road trip today too, lol.

[Crimson_Slasher]

See thats what a lot of us melee are looking at, thankyou Quetzacoatl. We want acknowledgment that there are issues, and its not so much the class itself as the hand we have been delt. Gear is an issue, weaponskills are an issue, and our other abilities/spells are a blessing and a curse!

We arent expected to buff ourselves, we are expected to buff others, but on paper this spell could offer some good things. Rdm with good haste gear can be rocking 40% haste, and if allowed to sub nin, dual wield III, so it can add up pretty decently on attack rate, add in multi-hit procs with some okay weapons, and we are okay DOT fighters, but even in my ws gear on rdm (im not a CDC rdm, i cant be bothered to get it) my death blossoms clock in at 1100ish with dia III on bats in zeruhn, is it amazing? nope, my drk does that in its sleep, but i certainly used to build tp faster than my drk before the last resort adjustment, though it is handy too when i can do some damage in situations where i dont need to do magey things.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Tell that to the developers, not me. It may not be the same guys that took years to realize "hmm, maybe call wyvern as a 2 hour ability was a bad idea after all...", but their influence certainly lingers, and the fact that there's been changes in the developer team yet nothing of substantial change outside of more jugs for BST, avatar favors and abyssea as a whole tells me they're sticking to their guns. They're not going to suddenly say "RDM should get AoE versions of their buffs" (which is as likely as DRK getting getting changed into a tank job); at least, not in -ga or -ra form. Hence my support for the buff sharing/spread/copy idea.

On a personal note, -gas and -ras don't make sense on RDM. Again, the concept of RDM shows it forgoes higher tier spells in exchange for martial prowess. -gas and -ras easily fall into that category.

Doesn't RDM have -ga's on older FF's? now I know they were rather powerful on the normal RPG's but they were no different to other spells in that they got low tier -ga's but not the higher ones.

[Bubeeky]

Doesn't RDM have -ga's on older FF's? now I know they were rather powerful on the normal RPG's but they were no different to other spells in that they got low tier -ga's but not the higher ones.

The thing about that is though, they didn't get their own spells, it was just a mishmash of low level magic (like Tier 2 or 3) that whm and blm could use and the tradeoff is that they could cast two spells in one round.

[Rayik]

Hitting things with a sword while wearing red pants is starting to actually sound like being a Red Mage again. This isn't "the fix", but it's a damned welcome addition. I'm eagerly curious what the "WS Adjustments" portion of the update is going to entail.

[VraeliaRDM]

To be honest, Temper was a FF1 RDM-only spell that granted you more 'hits'. It was only natural that SE would have gave RDMs this ability. However, I wish you could cast it on others as well as yourself. This would make RDMs more beneficiary again. Further more, RDM solo with Dual Wield with Temper with good Swords equiped....this is a good thing for RDM. I sometimes love going off on my own and soloing things, just to test my might as a RDM. This is a good advancement for us, RDMs. Thank you, Square Enix. :)

For WHMs and BRDs to get Addle, I am quite mad over this. I thought RDMs would get something that was so beneficial that would let us RDMs be back in the 'need' position. I guess not anymore. :( Thanks, SE.

For Reraise 1, and Raise 2, we should have got this long ago. If not Raise 2, Reraise 1, since we have learned Raise 1 at what...37 level? Can't remember. <.<

Cure V, RDMs don't need this. RDMs need some sort of Healing bonus with the already learned Cure Spells. But don't let it be overpowering to make the WHM be out of a job.

[Shiyo]

Hitting things with a sword while wearing red pants is starting to actually sound like being a Red Mage again. This isn't "the fix", but it's a damned welcome addition. I'm eagerly curious what the "WS Adjustments" portion of the update is going to entail.

By red pants you mean Nashira? Or do you plan to be TPing in pants with 0% haste? Also those 3% haste ta/da pants are better than nashira, so are ASA haste/acc pants. You should have cure potency on them anyways, so you can't make acc/haste ASA pants :(

Actually, when the hell did a RDM ever melee in red pants? None of our AF gives us any beneficial melee stats.......

[cidbahamut]

He meant it in reference to the rhetoric someone put forth earlier of "Hitting things with things while wearing red trousers".

Now hush.

[Malacite]

Generally people who don't like something will actually present an argument instead of "FUX MAN DIZ SUX!" and then the opposite opinions might say something.

The spell is not even out yet so you can't call it trash with any justification or creditability. Stop being so ignorant for five seconds and we will all thank you for doing something right.

Right, because OAT is going to just magically fix RDM's front line problems and bring it to the forefront.

I guess I give you guys too much credit in assuming you can infer as to why it's bad. Seemed pretty self-explanatory to me.

This is at best, a soloing tool. And a mediocre one at that, if it doesn't stack with DA/TA/WS.

Let's not address the glaring issues of low sword skill, no access to the good sword WS without the correct sub job (not counting Chant), or subpar melee gear choices (while BLU gets access to prime gear and basically functions almost identically to RDM in most respects). How about letting RDM at least equip Homam gear as a start, maybe even Ocelot/Loki's Kaftan, since those are in RDM's armorclass but are locked out to the job.


Even with prime melee gear (and RDM can build a decent set though it takes dedication) you still fall short of other melee jobs by a good deal, including PLD.


So why give us this half-assed spell that might have given RDM more room to contend with BRD for the support role? At least if you could cast Temper on an Ukon War you would likely see a dramatic increase in damage - particularly if it stacks with other DA buffs (yes DA has diminishing returns but it's different when you're getting it from external sources instead of gear - you're not penalizing yourself in any way).


Again, the lack of accession functionality is disappointing but not the least bit unexpected. There's just no excuse for not being able to target it though, unless SE intends to give RDM a slew of more single-target buff spells.

Though again, why do this in party-based game, and for what is arguably the strongest soloist job?

[Malacite]

To be honest, Temper was a FF1 RDM-only spell that granted you more 'hits'. It was only natural that SE would have gave RDMs this ability. However, I wish you could cast it on others as well as yourself. This would make RDMs more beneficiary again. Further more, RDM solo with Dual Wield with Temper with good Swords equiped....this is a good thing for RDM. I sometimes love going off on my own and soloing things, just to test my might as a RDM. This is a good advancement for us, RDMs. Thank you, Square Enix. :)

For WHMs and BRDs to get Addle, I am quite mad over this. I thought RDMs would get something that was so beneficial that would let us RDMs be back in the 'need' position. I guess not anymore. :( Thanks, SE.

For Reraise 1, and Raise 2, we should have got this long ago. If not Raise 2, Reraise 1, since we have learned Raise 1 at what...37 level? Can't remember. <.<

Cure V, RDMs don't need this. RDMs need some sort of Healing bonus with the already learned Cure Spells. But don't let it be overpowering to make the WHM be out of a job.


http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Temper


Not RDM exclusive, and it raises attack by 14. doesn't give extra hits. As I pointed out in the other thread, it's really sad that SE seems to think RDM needs more self-enhancing magic, rather than party buffs. I mean we all know how much RDM sucks at soloing right? :rolleyes:

[Greatguardian]

What the heck, Malacite? It's a RdMelee buff. That's all. Nothing is going to "Bring Red Mages to the forefront", ever, but this is certainly a buff to those players who feel like whacking things in their spare time. Anyone who thought this was going to be a party buff is mildly deluded. There's optimism, and then there's thinking that Red Mage will suddenly be able to grant OAT to all of the already superpowered DDs in the game.

[Duelle]

Let's not address the glaring issues of low sword skill, no access to the good sword WS without the correct sub job (not counting Chant), or subpar melee gear choices (while BLU gets access to prime gear and basically functions almost identically to RDM in most respects). How about letting RDM at least equip Homam gear as a start, maybe even Ocelot/Loki's Kaftan, since those are in RDM's armorclass but are locked out to the job.If that's how you feel, how about we steer the discussion in that direction instead of acting like Temper is the last, final spell we will ever get between now and the day the servers shut down for good? More melee gear has always been on the list of requests from the melee camp, so it's not like you're alone in asking for that. And I agree, RDM should be on Homam at the very least.

There's also the possibility of our low sword skill being dealt with when the revision of weapon proficiencies is done. I'd like all the fixes to RDM melee to be done ASAP too, but some of us see Temper as a step in the right direction.

[Rayik]

Temper is just a tool, a single piece of the puzzle. It's not going to suddenly bring us to the front line, or fix our suboptimal melee. It's a nice addition, and not the only thing we're getting.

Have you seen that new sword coming out? Can't recall the name, but it's level 95, and has Drain-TP. That sounds like a fun toy to play with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boklItcfg7w&feature=player_embedded

[Khiinroye]

That sword won't help rdmmelee become accepted in group play. You can use it instead of almace, and your melee damage will suffer. You can sub nin or dnc and offhand it, and you lose out on the benefits of /blm or /whm, costing you a spot to any of the plethora of rdms who are willing to play the mage part of the job.

It is a solo / lowman-weak-stuff toy only.

[saevel]

Ummm .... /BLM ... benefits? Like Sleepga and Stun? /WHM I can kinda see, would prefer /SCH if I'm gonna be in a mage position. /DRK already does stun and gives melee buffs, so really do you need sleepga that badly that and BLM is present?

/NIN gives magic accuracy via the ninjitsu spells, as much as a HQ staff actually.
/DNC gives 5% haste to everyone and erase to the RDM long with an alternate source for healing.

See all things provide various benefits.

[cidbahamut]

Yes, because I have a differing opinion I am quite clearly a troll. How could I not have seen it before now? Thank you for this enlightening revelation, I shall now go reflect upon the error of my ways and do everything in my power to better myself.

[Rayik]

I think people forget this is just a game.

[Shiyo]

/NIN gives magic accuracy via the ninjitsu spells, as much as a HQ staff actually.


LOL

This is why I don't read these forums, and when I do, I pretend like I'm talking to a very young child and don't take them seriously AT ALL.

You are right about SCH being the best mage sub 99.99% of the time though.

[VraeliaRDM]

Malacite, reread my post.

I SAID: IN FF1: TEMPER WAS A RDM-ONLY SPELL THAT GRANTED HIM/HERSELF AND OTHERS MORE 'HITS.'

Learn to read. Lol

So, it is NATURAL that SE would GIVE RDMs TEMPER.

[Rayik]

Malacite, reread my post.

I SAID: IN FF1: TEMPER WAS A RDM-ONLY SPELL THAT GRANTED HIM/HERSELF AND OTHERS MORE 'HITS.'

Learn to read. Lol

So, it is NATURAL that SE would GIVE RDMs TEMPER.

Vrae, in the original FF, Temper (TMPR) gave an attack bonus. The spell "Fast" allowed extra hits. Malacite even cited a link.

[Neisan_Quetz]

ITT Eleseal does not exist, and does nothing.

[rufuslupus]

i would like to thank se for temper. it's a step in the right direction and i hope that se will add more spells like temper that stack with each other which offer other melee capabilities through magic.

a lot of people forget that rdm is a mage that can melee through using magic, this is the rdm method of meleeing, but se has left that aspect untouched for years. if se were to add more spells like temper than maybe rdm's wouldn't have to borrow their melee capabilities from their subjobs.

imagine if se next added a magic spell that gave us dual wield for a time. the spell would give us a spectral magic dagger in our off hand. the theme of rapier and main gauche fencing (sword and dagger.) the magic dagger's delay and damage could be based off our enhancing skill thus giving the skill a bit more value.

[Stylin]

imagine if se next added a magic spell that gave us dual wield for a time. the spell would give us a spectral magic dagger in our off hand. the theme of rapier and main gauche fencing (sword and dagger.) the magic dagger's delay and damage could be based off our enhancing skill thus giving the skill a bit more value.

A dagger made entirely out of mana sounds incredibly fun. Tier 3 Enspell, anyone?

[saevel]

ITT Eleseal does not exist, and does nothing.

And umm, what would you use it for? Even BLM's lol at it now.

[Supersun]

And umm, what would you use it for? Even BLM's lol at it now.

Therondy?

Well...not, us. Meant at the Blms loling at it.

But yeah, other then stealing Brds chance at a grellow party not much lol.

[Crimson_Slasher]

That has now officially confused me. Some of the anti-melee group claim we cant afford to lose the m.acc from the ele/hq staffs, but others say "nobody needs that much m.acc" so which is it really? I dont mean in a mechanics sense, i personally can land enfeebles pretty reliably with either a sword/dagger or staff equipped, but i mean, we as a group should be able to agree if we have enough magic acc or not with capped skill.

[saevel]

At 51 in old style XP parties you needed the m.acc from staves. At 75 it was largely unnecessary unless the target was highly resistant to that particular element. Mostly it's been used as a fake argument by the anti-melee crowd to get a sword out of the RDM's hands. We have 0 staff skill, forcing us to wield a staff prevents us from engaging the monster, thus they auto-win the debate by using that as an argument. Now we have so much +skill to go with our base stats that accuracy isn't an issue anymore. It's that the NM's have built in resistance to anything that counts, and nothing you do will overcome that. I've done double +50 m.acc atma's and 400+ enfeebling skill and stuff has still resisted things like para / silence / bind / grav / sleep and sometimes addle and slow (depending on the NM's alignment). It's just what SE does to NM's, they make them immune to most things. The most common enfeebles that I've used are Slow II and Dia III.


Therondy?

Well...not, us. Meant at the Blms loling at it.

But yeah, other then stealing Brds chance at a grellow party not much lol.

So messed up that BLM's 10min JA is used to proc a spell from a sub. That speaks volumes about how "useful" it is for anyone else.

[Doombringer]

Temper is just a tool, a single piece of the puzzle. It's not going to suddenly bring us to the front line, or fix our suboptimal melee. It's a nice addition, and not the only thing we're getting.

Have you seen that new sword coming out? Can't recall the name, but it's level 95, and has Drain-TP. That sounds like a fun toy to play with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boklItcfg7w&feature=player_embedded


That sword won't help rdmmelee become accepted in group play. You can use it instead of almace, and your melee damage will suffer. You can sub nin or dnc and offhand it, and you lose out on the benefits of /blm or /whm, costing you a spot to any of the plethora of rdms who are willing to play the mage part of the job.

It is a solo / lowman-weak-stuff toy only.


i may be reading to far into this.. BUT! that pally goes from ws to ws in 4 swings. with a delay 213 weapon, assuming a standard tp return from swift blade (as in all 3 hits land but no DA) it SHOULD take 17 hits to reach 100% tp again. this leads me to believe that the tp absorb is quite potent.

it also shows it landing on 2/6 hits. again, laughably small sample size, but a 33% proc rate is pretty good for how potent the video implies it's effect to be.

THEN! 15 agi has a secondary subtle blow effect.

all that taken together, combined with the fact that it's a very respectable offhander ANYWAY, dmg/delay is strong and haste if you need it.. (wich i do.. @ 23% atm.. got my z tiara for those who remember) means i am fucking JAZZED for that sword.

it will slightly reduce tp fed to the mob by the wielder through it's agi, then enfeeble the mobs tp gain while at the same time buffing the wielders dmg quite significantly via what APPEARS to be a rather strong tp-drain effect.

granted this is really just an educated guess.. but i'm excited >.> also, it looks cool! ^.^

[Greatguardian]

Gee, I wonder if Staves came with something aside from magic accuracy. Perhaps magic damage, cure potency, or casting time-? Physical damage taken? Magic Defense Bonus? No? Haste? Oh yes, and the ability to swap between all of the above without worrying about TP loss? Obviously, Staves are useless.

Not even going to start on the benefits of Wands in MAcc-capped situations. Do you really think you're capping dMND in Voidwatch? Or that you were without the weapon slot at 75 on everything?

[Supersun]

Do you really think you're capping dMND in Voidwatch? Or that you were without the weapon slot at 75 on everything?

Yes

dMND 75 is not hard to get and my gear is terrible. Monsters historically have had fairly low base stats. Feel free to banish test something to prove me wrong, but not being able to cap something with just armor is certainly the exception and not the norm.

There's a reason I facepalmed when I saw that the selling point on our Emp neck was only a little more mnd then our previous best neck.


Also, random question, how long have you been playing Red Mage. Don't worry I'm not planning to make an illogical argument by appealing to authority and pulling seniority card or anything like that, but from what I've seen you post it really sounds like that the vast majority of your Red Mages experience has been more or less abyssea only.

[Greatguardian]

On my main account? Post-Abyssea. On my Taru? Must be 6 years now. I had a Rdm-only mule that I'd use so that I wouldn't have to store 50 billion pieces of gear on my main, and solo'd damn near everything with it as well as logging plenty of hours dualboxing it in group play and even merit healing with it.

By "On everything", I really do mind on everything. There were definitely plenty of trash NMs that were easy to cap dMnd on, but I was never comfortable throwing away 16 MND on stronger NMs =/.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Oh, finally, can cap haste on Rdm while meleeing without needing Goli body with that sword.

Testing on FFXIAH Ukko's Fury setup thread suggests even T1/T2 VWNMs have abnormally high stats.



A note on my previously mentioned max dex sets for VWNMS. The vwnm (T1 mandy on windy path, which is one of the easier ones) I fought seemed to have an agi too high to to make it effective. in 3 fights I had a crit rate of 17% fulltiming 176 dex with 3% critrate gear and 5merits, so 9% crit from dex. this was out of 132 landed hits. Very small sample size. Will post more as I get more data.

[Swords]

That has now officially confused me. Some of the anti-melee group claim we cant afford to lose the m.acc from the ele/hq staffs, but others say "nobody needs that much m.acc" so which is it really? I dont mean in a mechanics sense, i personally can land enfeebles pretty reliably with either a sword/dagger or staff equipped, but i mean, we as a group should be able to agree if we have enough magic acc or not with capped skill.

It's because everyone takes the context regarding the "ideal" situation of a persons post differently. Everyone has their own ideas on what exactly is considered a "trash" or "too weak" mob, everyone has their own idea of what would be considered an "ideal" melee RDM as well as a "ideal" mage RDM, everyone interprets what they think is "ideal" way to act in any given situation, and everyone interprets the average view of the players performance based on their own ideals and what the majority of the server playerbase thinks works best.

It's not too surprising to see alot of contradictions in different posts, even those who contradict themselves somewhere down the line. Best way to deal with it is just try and be general about it because if you try to lead into one specific situation that might warrant or not-warrant a particular instance people usually come out of the woodwork saying your cutting-teeth or they completely misinterpret it. It still happens, but I doubt anyone want's to sit there explaining every specific scenario where something could be applied just to be followed up with more misinterpreted arguments.

[Malacite]

If that's how you feel, how about we steer the discussion in that direction instead of acting like Temper is the last, final spell we will ever get between now and the day the servers shut down for good? More melee gear has always been on the list of requests from the melee camp, so it's not like you're alone in asking for that. And I agree, RDM should be on Homam at the very least.

There's also the possibility of our low sword skill being dealt with when the revision of weapon proficiencies is done. I'd like all the fixes to RDM melee to be done ASAP too, but some of us see Temper as a step in the right direction.


What is with people's reading comprehension here?

What I was getting at was if SE's idea of RDM being a "Master Enhancer" is powerful but self-targeting buffs, then we have a real problem here because all that's really going to accomplish is making RDM even more overpowered when soloing.

SE is completely ignoring the glaring issues facing RDM as a viable frontline option which I already outlined in my previous post. It's possible but unlikely that all the new magic RDM gets will make up for it's current weaknesses. And even it it does, all that means is you wind up with a very high-maintenance (though somewhat self-sustaining thanks to Composure & Refresh II) frontline job.

It's great if there's nothing else available, but at this point EXP is so stupidly easy to get and DD's are a dime a dozen so why not just save the hassle and get a proper DD and let the RDM do what they're really meant to. I've long been a proponent of RDM melee and do still feel SE could be doing a lot more to make it a viable option, but even if they do it probably still won't be all that common.

It's a hell of a lot easier on the devs as well to just fix the minor issues that are plaguing the job, and focus the new spells on buffing the party and giving us more potent enfeebling magic.

Speaking of which, still waiting to hear about these "Fixes" to Enfeebling that they mentioned earlier at the tail end of the Job Adjustments post (or whichever one it was, it was fairly recent along with WS adjustments etc.) It'd be wonderful, for example, to be able to addle/silence NMs that spam magic even if only for a few moments.

Break too would be nice. Obviously these fights could become trivial very quickly if SE goes too far with the changes, but it would be nice if the most vital spells that could really make an impact on big fights actually worked for a change instead of just Slow & Paralyze.

[Greatguardian]

Temper has nothing to do with the Manifesto or Red Mage's role as an enhancer. It's a melee buff, because people wanted melee buffs. It is not expected to make Red Mage a viable frontline option, frankly nothing will ever accomplish this. But all of the reasonable RdMelee proponents here have been asking for a simply buff regardless of whether it would change the job's status or not, and that is what they got.

[saevel]

@Neisan_Quetz

VWNM's are the only mobs with stats higher then normal. From what I can see, VWNM's are basically Abyssea NM's but outside Abysea and thus no Crour buffs / Atma's. Also from what I can tell they have behave weirdly when it comes to pDiff / fSTR / dDex / dINT. As the above info shows, 170+ dex didn't cap crit, yet significantly less dex doesn't floor crit either, same with fSTR an dINT. It's almost as if these mobs have different rules and I wouldn't put it past SE to do this.

[SpankWustler]

I'm not even sure if Temper was added because folks were clamoring for melee buffs. It's not so different from the en-spells of olden days so it may have been already in the plans. At any rate, it will soon exist. It is what it is.

Anyone with a burning desire to melee every-gosh-darned-thing while clad in red trousers but without an Almace will probably be disappointed by Temper. Anyone who only melees stuff Even Match or below will probably be happy to use it for Campaign and other such occasions.

At this point, I'm more interested in whether or not Spontaneity (and Manawell) can target other party members. The phrasing of the abilities makes it sound like they will.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'm going with bad wording at this moment and assuming it's self only.

[VraeliaRDM]

Ok, I stand corrected on the Temper/Fast spells. Malacite, I apologize. At least, I can admit I am wrong. :) /asks for forgivness. Lols

[Crimson_Slasher]

Little late to the response but greatguardian, im going to be frank, a post about the m.acc of staffs and wether they are needed or not does NOT translate "to why do we use staffs?!"

That was an irrelevent response to the question i asked, its the same reason some rng (i do at times) use fire staff, or smn use staffs, they still have uses, but i will tell you now, a ranger doesnt use a fire staff for fire magic accuracy, and under most situations, even summoners dont use them for magic accuracy. So try to not go off on a totally unrelated tangent from asking if we actually (Generally) need the magic accuracy (i did not mention nuking or other bonuses they represent) to perform as rdm (which as many claim we are an enfeebler) enfeebling.

[Duelle]

What is with people's reading comprehension here?I'm simply trying to steer the thread into a direction that is not crying over us not getting another spell to cycle under the delusion that it'll make our job "wanted" and "useful", as if Temper being castable on others is the panacea to RDM's woes. This is, of course, ignoring the fact that a number of people who have played the job for a prolongued amount of time hate cycling, and have expressed their feelings on the matter here and on other threads.

As I've said, right now we should be clamoring for a buff spread/share mechanic unique to our class if you want to help the enhancing side of the job, followed by a mechanic to streamline buffing (something like Readiness). Melee buffs that come with it (gear, revised weapon proficiencies, more WS) are also welcome.

Obviously these fights could become trivial very quickly if SE goes too far with the changes, but it would be nice if the most vital spells that could really make an impact on big fights actually worked for a change instead of just Slow & Paralyze.This is an issue more with the design behind enfeebling than anything else. Though honestly speaking, debuffs generally either increase damage taken, decrease attack, decrease defense, and under certain scenarios, decrease attack speeds. Paralyze alone is super OP from a design standpoint, specially when you're looking at it from the perspective of "what would happen if Para was in X game". It follows the same logic as to why bosses in other games are immune to knock-downs, blanket silences, interrupt abilities barring certain spells that are designed to be interrupted, and so on.

Sadly, Final Fantasy's debuffs are few and extremely powerful. Yes it'd be pretty damn ridiculous if Confuse, Break, Amnesia and such actually worked on boss level mobs. Now, if you want to go into the topic of enfeebling design, I can tell you that an accuracy down enfeeble would be nice. A notable evasion down that is separate from Gravity would also be very nice (in before "l0lz u cna cap ACC ez"), even better if it can stack with other debuffs that have a similar effect. Dia and Bio stacking on mobs like they can on player characters would also help. I'd be willing to work with it even if it were to follow the "one spell per player" rule; I could live with a RDM casting Dia III on a mob and a BLM casting Bio II or a second RDM casting Bio III with both spells taking effect on the mob instead of overwriting each other.

Edit: oops. Forgot Bio uses dark magic skill for the dot effect, not the attack down effect.

[cidbahamut]

I'm simply trying to steer the thread into a direction that is not crying over us not getting another spell to cycle under the delusion that it'll make our job "wanted" and "useful",

Wait wait wait wait. Are you saying that a spell that increases double-attack that can be cast on other players would not be useful?

[Greatguardian]

Little late to the response but greatguardian, im going to be frank, a post about the m.acc of staffs and wether they are needed or not does NOT translate "to why do we use staffs?!"

That was an irrelevent response to the question i asked, its the same reason some rng (i do at times) use fire staff, or smn use staffs, they still have uses, but i will tell you now, a ranger doesnt use a fire staff for fire magic accuracy, and under most situations, even summoners dont use them for magic accuracy. So try to not go off on a totally unrelated tangent from asking if we actually (Generally) need the magic accuracy (i did not mention nuking or other bonuses they represent) to perform as rdm (which as many claim we are an enfeebler) enfeebling.

I'm not claiming Red Mage is an enfeeble-only job. That is stupid. Likewise, I was also responding to the people who were claiming that they may as well use swords because Magic Accuracy is unncessary from staves. I am not going to pigeonhole myself into looking at a single aspect of a certain line of staves while ignoring every other benefit the weapon class grants, just so you and/or others can turn around and say "Well ha! Staves are useless then! Sword or bust!"

It's flawed logic at its finest. Does Red Mage always need the Magic Accuracy component of, frankly, out-dated Staves? No. Does Red Mage receive multiple, potent benefits from non-swords in their weapon slot? Yes. Is equipping a sword and keeping it equipped to maintain TP a huge reduction in Red Mage's versatility and potency as a spellcaster? Yes. There is a massive opportunity cost when TP'ing in swords, whether RdMelee like it or not.

[Malacite]

Accuracy down? You mean blind?

One person said earlier that they should change RDM's Group 2's to simply enhancing the potency of those spells and giving RDM those spells as scrolls instead - I would love this, but unfortunately that's not terribly likely to happen unless SE were to check every player to see who's merited which spells and mail them a scroll to their D box lol.


And yes, there's no guarantee that Temper is 100% indicative of SE's manifesto, but it's not exactly a good start either. They talk about making RDM a master of enhancing magic, and the 1st thing we see is a self-only buff? With only 1 more level cap increase to go, it does not instill much confidence in me - especially after the years of crap I have seen out of the old devs.

[Greatguardian]

Wait, you think the Devs care if we already have a spell or not? If they remove it from the merit list and make it a scroll, we'll all have to buy it regardless. It wouldn't be the first time Mages have lost spells that they had already paid for and learned. Life's not fair, broheim.

[SpankWustler]

Duelle, I understand that you're trying to make points by comparing stuff in FFXI to stuff in other MMORPGs, but I think gaining a better understanding of what stuff in FFXI actually does would be a better approach.

Paralyze can't prevent a monster's TP moves, so it's drastically different than all of those abilities you compared it to. In fact, it can't even prevent a player's weapon skills.

There is an accuracy down spell. It's called Blind. There are two tiers of it, with the second tier being a Category II merit for reasons no sane man will ever grasp. It's sometimes useful, but the hardest monsters have huge amounts of accuracy so it just changes their hit rate from 95% to 95%.

I guess you're referring to accuracy and evasion down spells that would work on a percentage with no chance of resist, similar to Dia and Bio? If that's the case, I agree something like that would be nice.

[SpankWustler]

One person said earlier that they should change RDM's Group 2's to simply enhancing the potency of those spells and giving RDM those spells as scrolls instead - I would love this, but unfortunately that's not terribly likely to happen unless SE were to check every player to see who's merited which spells and mail them a scroll to their D box lol.

I think most people would be just fine with losing the merits and needing to buy the scrolls, if that was the way SE decided to re-work the Category 2 merits for some jobs. Well, assuming it made the merits more useful and/or more interesting.

[Duelle]

Accuracy down? You mean blind?I mean something a little more potent. Well, without having to spend merits to get it, anyway. Blind II with reworked numbers as a scroll-learnable spell would probably do the trick. Reworking the numbers for Blind and getting rid of Blind II would also work. I will admit I did forget about it, though. Lack of use and lolBlindII being partly to blame.

I guess you're referring to accuracy and evasion down spells that would work on a percentage with no chance of resist, similar to Dia and Bio? If that's the case, I agree something like that would be nice.My only real concern with percentages is that the numbers in-game aren't big enough for it to be "visible". It might be possible to work around it, though.

The fact that the concept of buff/debuff spread doesn't exist in FFXI might actually work in our favor, for once. The eva down idea could come into play as something that would create additional leeway for everyone, including the caster. That alone would be a huge feather in RDM's cap if they were to get something like that.

Paralyze can't prevent a monster's TP moves, so it's drastically different than all of those abilities you compared it to. In fact, it can't even prevent a player's weapon skills.The fact that a spell can stop monster actions, even if they are as seemingly meaningless as auto attacks, is much bigger than you are considering.

PS: I'm guessing no one is against Dia and Bio being able to take effect on the same mob without the overwrite silliness.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Once again though greatguardian your point is IRRELEVENT to the question. "The question wasnt should we nuke with swords?" or "Can we nuke with swords?" or hell even "are swords better?" it has NOTHING to do with WHY we use staffs what so ever. We all know WHY we use staffs, but you are just taking a tangent as to what is good about staffs, my question put simply was does the magic accuracy generally matter? The group has spoken as said "NO" and it is further "flawed logic" from you to even assume that anyone on this board, or playing redmage is trying to insinuate that staffs are "useless" and we should drop them for swords.

In a nutshell, i asked "do we need knifes to cut apples?" and you shouted "yeah we need knifes to cut oranges and pears and grapefruit!" which is irrelevent and boarderline stupid of a statement. I thankyou for your insight on staffs, but do me a favor? Take the benefits of staffs, put it on a memo, and label it "THINGS WE ALREADY KNOW" and have it on my desk in an hour. Additionally, i never mentioned my question as to us needing to having swords stay in the weapon slots to keep tp, and expecting to use my full selection of spells at optimal potency. Because 99% of the rdm population understands that meleeing is a give and take thing for rdm, giving up nuking/healing potency for physical damage which does NOT deplete our mp as quickly as magical damage.

And if you cant be bothered reading all that, simple question. What was the point in bringing up the other benefits of staffs when nobody asked and everybody knows?

[Greatguardian]

Sooooooooo muuuuuuuuuuuuuch maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad.

Simple answer to a shortsighted question? Depends on the content. Magic Accuracy does matter on some things. Does it always? Nah.

Real answer to the situation which spawned your question? The "anti-melee" crowd doesn't say that the only reason staves are important is for Magic Acc. It's the melee crowd who instantly jumps to Elemental Staves and Enfeebles whenever the Staff vs Sword question is raised, and touts the fact that Magic Acc is often superfluous as a reason why losing Staves for Swords is no big deal. The reality of it? Fulltiming swords is a big deal, and it has to do with a lot more than Magic Acc.

If you want to ask a single question, unrelated to the context surrounding it, try not including aggressive and argumentative verbage in the first place. If you're going to say "So how come all the magic-onlies keep saying all this dumb crap about magic acc whenever we bring up swords? It makie no sense!", expect one of those magic-onlies to make you check yourself before you wreck yourself. If you don't care about the situation that's causing your apparent confusion, then don't bring it up.

And if you can't be bothered reading all that, stop 4 beeing Rosina plx.

[Supersun]

To be fair your argument isn't as much staves as it is the ability to freely switch weapons without remorse.

Plenty of my weapons that I switch into aren't even staves. I mean the best convert weapon is a club and come 95 sword and shield/sword will likely beat terra's staff for PDT.

I mean when you say that a large part of backlinings power of the ability to equip staves that isn't exactly the best description of what you are describing and people tend to default to the old Macc from staves are needed argument.