[dev1024] Job adjustments - RDM

[Greatguardian]

It's both, yes. Staves do offer a wide variety of utility, but yes I have always said that one of the key features of Red Mage is its gear selection and ability to switch all of its gear slots at any time. Keeping swords on dashes that versatility in two of the most potent slots, which was the entire point of the conflict he originally cited.

[Supersun]

I was just pointing out the confusion.

It's nothing specific to the staves themselves though there are a lot of useful staves.

If you mention staves specifically though people tend to assume you are talking about something else such as the magic accuracy debate cited so many times that isn't necessarily true.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Agreement with supersun, my issue isnt why im shackled to staffs, like i said, everyone knows why, my only statement was to the magic accuracy aspect specifically, and the other reasons were not to be addressed because in short, im well aware of what they do, but i was asking why there was so much contradction over staff vs no staff m.acc on GENERAL content, not situational content. You bringing in the staffs do more than make us more accurate was not something i addressed because frankly, i wasnt even talking about nuke potency, cure potency, evasion/skill boosts, pdt, or anything else.

As far as you ignoring my question, that comes off as a very machiavellian perspective, where as i interperit it, you saw an opertunity where you can in one fell swoop try to silence the nay-sayers who feel staffs offer in many cases, random superfluous enhancements (attack/ranged attack say hello.) to redmage, as well as "defeat" those who say the magic accuracy isnt nessesary on general content.

But thats my understanding of your posts, needless to say, the staff bonuses are a dead-horse topic, and it needs neither to be beaten more, nor do the redmage populace need to be educated on why theyre effective. Thank you sir, but again, on a list of things we as a whole already know and understand.

[SpankWustler]

My only real concern with percentages is that the numbers in-game aren't big enough for it to be "visible". It might be possible to work around it, though.

Almost nothing in this game is visible to the naked eye, so that would be par for the course. FFXI just isn't a game where eyeballing is an effective form of measurement. I can understand why some people dislike this, but I enjoy that it rewards people who take the time to understand the effects of statistics, spells, and abilities.


The fact that a spell can stop monster actions, even if they are as seemingly meaningless as auto attacks, is much bigger than you are considering.

I get what you're saying about the theory, but it doesn't work that way in practice. A monster's auto-attacks just exist to wear down the MP of the healer in any competent group, or to finish someone off if directly after a TP move or spell. And yeah, everything does hit like a truck and always will, but plenty of ways to deal with that exist.

Spells are a mixed bag, depending on the monster, but generally Sleepga II or Paralyga will be deadlier than anything that does damage if a group is prepared. If you really want to stop a spell, though, Stun would be the first choice.

The TP moves or special abilities of monsters are the real danger for any competent group, and those are designed to bypass the effects of Slow (monsters gain the majority of TP through being hit, not through hitting), Paralyze (it can't activate on this sort of ability), and sometimes even Stun (the ability comes out too fast).

FFXI has some unorthodox dynamics, but the game is designed with those in mind and it works. One of those dynamics is that we often need to stop the actions of boss-level monsters and that we are able to.

Dia and Bio no longer overwriting each other would be very welcome, if only because Bio takes priority currently in spite of being near-pointless for most fights.

[SpankWustler]

As far as you ignoring my question, that comes off as a very Machiavellian perspective, where as i interpret it, you saw an opportunity where you can in one fell swoop try to silence the nay-sayers who feel staffs offer in many cases, random superfluous enhancements (attack/ranged attack say hello.) to redmage, as well as "defeat" those who say the magic accuracy isn't necessary on general content.

It's more likely that he just couldn't figure out what you were asking exactly, since the question was worded in a peculiar way. I've gone back two pages and read the question four times, read the discussion about it, and I'm still a little confused.

An answer to the question as I understood it: Different people have different notions of "general" content, and probably even different standards for what "reliable" is, so of course they're going to say different stuff.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Random thing but I'll put it here anyway.

Since we got MAB III last level cap I wonder if we'll get MDB III this one, also I wonder if we'll get another fast cast by 99 since they raised the cap.

[Sarick]

It's both, yes. Staves do offer a wide variety of utility, but yes I have always said that one of the key features of Red Mage is its gear selection and ability to switch all of its gear slots at any time. Keeping swords on dashes that versatility in two of the most potent slots, which was the entire point of the conflict he originally cited.

I hate using a staff and swapping constantly. The reason I use the staff over the blade is because the magic accuracy and magic potency for the right element. If Temper added Magic Attack bonus and Magic accuracy bonuses for bladed weapons I'd love to full time the +15 magic accuracy sword. What seems to be the case with me is equipping a one handed weapon not only lowers magic accuracy but possibly the 2 handed stat bonuses.

Where is blade catalyst / blade finesse (trait) (all MP based magics boosted with a dagger or sword equipped equal to 2-handed staff bonuses(enhanced by sword or dagger skill for benefit bonuses depending on what weapon type is equipped)) This is Similar to mages casting spells with a wand as a catalyst drawing symbols in the air. A RDM equipped with a dagger or sword would use the metal weapon as a catalyst with skills of a master fencer and mage combined to enhance their potency and accuracy. This fits the job type well and would hopefully satisfy both melee and back line mages equally.

or what about the ability to multicast or cast to combine magics. Multicast cast the ability to cast two or more spells once with slowest delay for both.

Temper is nice but I want something more like longer durations equal to my composer for all my buffs that way the cycles are timed by mine wearing off. The catalyst trait would be a nice place t start unless it's added to an item.

Something no other job would have, quick cast will be an ability not a trait right? Just more things to clutter up a single macro set.

Lastly, why isn't death blossom useful? Say 100TP it nullifies 25% enemy enfeeble resistance with aftermath, 200% 50% and with 300% 75% for 300%. Such a good weapon skill wasted on 10 magic accuracy. Th ability to ignore resistance would be a godsend for RDM enfeebles even for a 30 seconds.

Until developers think outside the box for RDM the only thing well see is rehashes for abilities other jobs already have.

[Shiyo]

RDM isn't meant to be a melee mage DD hybrid, bluemage is. Redmage is a backline support/debuffer job.

Notice how your ideas want to add COMPLETELY insane things that are new and not easily added? There's a reason for that - you're trying to change the job completely. That is not SE's intention.

[Duelle]

Where is blade catalyst / blade finesse (trait) (all MP based magics boosted with a dagger or sword equipped equal to 2-handed staff bonuses(enhanced by sword or dagger skill for benefit bonuses depending on what weapon type is equipped)I agree with this idea. We wouldn't really need it if itemization was simple enough that the devs could create real hybrid swords (attack power and direct boosts to spell damage/accuracy instead of having to play with INT, MAB and so on).

It's definitely something to concider, and hey, the less staves matter to us, the better.

[SpankWustler]

A level 99 sword with the same elemental affinities as a set of HQ staffs would be nice. Blue Mage, Red Mage, and even Corsair could all see some benefit from such an item.

An armed revolution to overthrow the bourgeois upper-class, live in their mansions, and eat their pampered children would also be nice.

I seriously doubt either of these things will ever come to pass, and if I had to pick, I'd take the second one anyway.

Edit: Magian staffs would still be better for elemental magic, obviously. Also, now that I think about it, is it even possible for an item to have an affinity for multiple elemental affinities? Even if it is, is there "room" for all of them on one thing even if the effect is hidden?

[Swords]

They may expand on the current ToM weapons, so who knows that may just happen.

[Economizer]

A level 99 sword with the same elemental affinities as a set of HQ staffs would be nice. Blue Mage, Red Mage, and even Corsair could all see some benefit from such an item.

It might come to pass, but I've been thinking about this for ages. I think a shield with affinity would be better. This could either be "elemental shields" like the staffs, or, a shield with multiple affinities, such as a "Shield of Light" that would have Light, Fire, Thunder, Wind as all being optimized, preferably with no downside (since Shields are more combat oriented and swapping out sucks).

[Sarick]

RDM isn't meant to be a melee mage DD hybrid, bluemage is. Redmage is a backline support/debuffer job.

Notice how your ideas want to add COMPLETELY insane things that are new and not easily added? There's a reason for that - you're trying to change the job completely. That is not SE's intention.

How is making it so RDM defaults to a sword over a staff changing the job? RDMs have no skill in staff, they do have B+ in dagger and sword coincidence? In all the FF games that I've played RDM we could choose staff, dagger or sword to fight with. In fact they did rather well as melees in several versions. MY point isn't asking to make RDM a master DD but place the sword and dagger there over a staff without all the penlites associated with choosing that setup. I don't think a silly special sword is the way to go either, no gear isn't the answer. This should be something special that the job benefits from front line, back line or where ever provided a dagger or sword equipped in the main hand. This isn't game breaking or "COMPLETELY insane."

Back before shield mastery and other shield changes a lot of paladins used an earth staff as a main weapon. The reason was for the damage reduction. Soon after these shield changes they became better at helping the job. Players started shifting toward new setups reminiscent of holy knights. The result was players started equipping sword and board setups for the job. I know when I first started RDM way back I didn't find a staff in my inventory I found a dagger. I believe we was given a melee weapon because by design it's what was intended for the job. Unfortunately, the benefits of a staff forced the job to gear outside it's fantasy concept.

I can see the same thing happening here if finesse trait was given to RDM. It wouldn't mean RDM's would suddenly be front line DD's, just that we could do all the stuff you mentioned above without swapping a staff that we don't even have F skill in. In the case of paladin they at least had acceptable staff skill.

As for the combine, or multicast. Red mage cure 4 is too limited but they don't want us to have cure 5 so, why allow us to multicast cure 3 and cure 4 together. Insane, maybe but it's something unique that the devs haven't used yet to my knowledge. It wouldn't be giving away to much either or stealing from another job. After all, Fastcast isn't what it used to be. Now it's so common in gear or other buffs that even standard mages have it. At least RDM is getting quickcast.

Why not try and fix whats wrong. If anything the ideas I posted would make the job better at both back line and front line without sacrificing either.

[Seriha]

The actual item class doesn't matter if you're going to be swapping it around, but staff is kind of convenient for the anti-melee since we lack skill in it. All depends on the stats the items themselves bring. Overall, I wouldn't mind some kind of tiered "Magic Fencer" trait (oh lord, I went there...) that could add +1 Affinity per level up to maybe +5 when wielding a sword or dagger. If they don't have a universal affinity trait hiding in the game somewhere already, I doubt it'd be impossible to add. From there, which weapon you opt to use would depend on the situation, like an INT/MATK sword for a bit more oomph, PDT for defense, and maybe we should petition for a Cure Potency sword path. PLDs could benefit from that, too. Just wouldn't look forward to more Light weather hell. x.x

[Economizer]

The actual item class doesn't matter if you're going to be swapping it around, but staff is kind of convenient for the anti-melee since we lack skill in it.

I'm semi opposed to giving Red Mage Staff skill since I'd much rather see them use a Sword/Dagger, although it does kinda suck, especially since not having Staff skill makes you miss out on Spirit Taker.

Enspells definitely do reward lower delay single handed weapons though, or at least the tier ones did.


All depends on the stats the items themselves bring.

A high level shield with magic affinity in either half (alligned with skillchains) or all magic that is about equivelant to the NQ/HQ staffs (with its NQ/HQ), or even better, just a tiny step above, would be a wonderful item, for melee based magic users, and crafters alike.

Red Mages, Blue Mages, Corsairs, Bards, and to a lesser extent Paladins and White Mages would all greatly benefit from an item like this.


Overall, I wouldn't mind some kind of tiered "Magic Fencer" trait (oh lord, I went there...) that could add +1 Affinity per level up to maybe +5 when wielding a sword or dagger.

No. SE doesn't give Black Mage affinity, and they said no to White Mage getting Cure Potency even as a merit. Having a native trait that boosts damage in the way affinity does is bad. There are much better ways to do this.

One way in particular, aside from gear, would be for enspells to debuff mobs resistance to magic in a very large way, since this would fit the job quite well.

Another would be to give a low grade (like +1 or +2 like the elemental staves have) affinity for whatever element enspell you have casted on yourself when you have a one handed weapon equipped. But just giving this natively without a spell buffing yourself first, and to all elements seems a bit overpowered, and more importantly, against the feel of not only Red Mage, but all magic using jobs.


maybe we should petition for a Cure Potency sword path. PLDs could benefit from that, too.

Right after White Mage gets a Cure Potency club path. Considering the Tefnut Wand, I doubt it will ever happen.

[Seriha]

No. SE doesn't give Black Mage affinity, and they said no to White Mage getting Cure Potency even as a merit. Having a native trait that boosts damage in the way affinity does is bad. There are much better ways to do this.In the event the staves continue to evolve, in the end they'd still be greater than the trait for those willing to chase them. Personally, I'm not for the staff equivalent of swords, daggers, or shields as they'll just introduce yet more inventory clutter until SE lets us store weapons. +5 is ambitious, and oftentimes I propose an idea in an "overpowered" state if for any reason to get people talking and thinking about it, for or against. +3 might be more appropriate, but a girl can dream. Ultimately, I'd like to strive for more universal fixes than ones found through gear. For those who don't have said gear, they're SOL.

[Economizer]

Ultimately, I'd like to strive for more universal fixes than ones found through gear. For those who don't have said gear, they're SOL.

Some White Mages asked for Cure Potency without having to resort to gear. SE told them very clearly in the White Mage Q&A, the very polite equivalent of "Deal with it." I'm not suggestion something unreasonable like "everyone should have either a Relic, Mythic, or Empyrean weapon" but instead that we have a solution with much easier to get gear.

Spells are another way this can be done, but in the end, unless they are merited, spells are just like gear... if you don't have them, you are SOL. This is part of the game...

[Seriha]

Well, as I recently argued on Alla, gear should be a supplement, not a source for something. Relics and Empyreans break this rule, with Mythics sliding around it by giving WS access through a quest. It's not a feature I'm particularly fond of, but you'll also see people argue for the existence of such as rewards or trophies. To this day, I still can't say it's reasonable to expect a person to have an Empyrean despite the relative ease of acquisition compared to its counterparts. Jobs should be better distinguished by their features, such as JAs, traits, and spells with, again, our gear building on top of that. And if we're veering back toward highly randomized loot pools like with Voidwatch, some folks will have a hard enough time killing a given mob once let alone the 10+ to maybe not even see what they're after. If people start to discriminate or ridicule for lack of said item, then it's a problem.

[Duelle]

Overall, I wouldn't mind some kind of tiered "Magic Fencer" trait (oh lord, I went there...) that could add +1 Affinity per level up to maybe +5 when wielding a sword or dagger.やっと目を覚ましたみたいタル。>.>;

Only real issue with Magic Fencer being tiered is whether we're worried about other jobs getting access to it by subbing RDM.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

How is making it so RDM defaults to a sword over a staff changing the job? RDMs have no skill in staff, they do have B+ in dagger and sword coincidence? In all the FF games that I've played RDM we could choose staff, dagger or sword to fight with. In fact they did rather well as melees in several versions. MY point isn't asking to make RDM a master DD but place the sword and dagger there over a staff without all the penlites associated with choosing that setup. I don't think a silly special sword is the way to go either, no gear isn't the answer. This should be something special that the job benefits from front line, back line or where ever provided a dagger or sword equipped in the main hand. This isn't game breaking or "COMPLETELY insane."

Back before shield mastery and other shield changes a lot of paladins used an earth staff as a main weapon. The reason was for the damage reduction. Soon after these shield changes they became better at helping the job. Players started shifting toward new setups reminiscent of holy knights. The result was players started equipping sword and board setups for the job. I know when I first started RDM way back I didn't find a staff in my inventory I found a dagger. I believe we was given a melee weapon because by design it's what was intended for the job. Unfortunately, the benefits of a staff forced the job to gear outside it's fantasy concept.

I can see the same thing happening here if finesse trait was given to RDM. It wouldn't mean RDM's would suddenly be front line DD's, just that we could do all the stuff you mentioned above without swapping a staff that we don't even have F skill in. In the case of paladin they at least had acceptable staff skill.

As for the combine, or multicast. Red mage cure 4 is too limited but they don't want us to have cure 5 so, why allow us to multicast cure 3 and cure 4 together. Insane, maybe but it's something unique that the devs haven't used yet to my knowledge. It wouldn't be giving away to much either or stealing from another job. After all, Fastcast isn't what it used to be. Now it's so common in gear or other buffs that even standard mages have it. At least RDM is getting quickcast.

Why not try and fix whats wrong. If anything the ideas I posted would make the job better at both back line and front line without sacrificing either.

I wouldn't waste your time with that one... It's basically 100% troll 0% anything else.

[Rayik]

RDM isn't meant to be a melee mage DD hybrid, bluemage is. Redmage is a backline support/debuffer job.

Notice how your ideas want to add COMPLETELY insane things that are new and not easily added? There's a reason for that - you're trying to change the job completely. That is not SE's intention.

Enspells
Temper
Gain-Str, Vit, Dex, etc
Magian/Relic/Mythic/Empyrean Swords
Melee Gear (Dusk, Calmecac, Atheling Mantle, Brisk Mask, etc)
Composure's Accuracy Bonus
Etc. (Phalanx, Stoneskin, etc but useful for other situations too)
Etc.
Etc.

Clearly you're right, what on earth were we thinking? SE never intended RDM to ever actually melee anything...

Seriously Shiyo, at this point you're trolling. Even the new Drain-TP sword has RDM on it. I think it's pretty clear they want RDM to melee at least some of the time. Where it's appropriate is debatable.

[Rayik]

Late to the discussion on staffs, but here are my thoughts on them in a nutshell.

I think what's tethering us to those godawful, outdated staffs is that they are just too damn good. Period. Not even being sarcastic. We got options in the Magian weapons, but even 39 levels later we can't readily replace those lvl 51 staffs except for.... drumroll... More staffs(magian this time).

Sure, we have the option to have M.Acc swords, or even MAB swords, even dual-wield them and mix and match, but the problem is that even the NQ elemental staffs are STILL better, because they offer both M.Acc and potency to each element. I could carry two of either sword to outdo one or the other, but can't match the full output of the staff. Not to mention how much versatility we'd lose by subbing NIN or DNC just to dual-wield in the first place.

I don't think SE had thought about future prospects much when they put out those elemental staffs. No lvl 51 piece of gear should be that good. Hindsight is a ***ch.

[Shiyo]

Yeah, clearly I'm trolling, that would explain why not a single piece of our AF3 has a single melee boosting stat on it at all. It would also explain why we've gotten very very very very few pieces of melee gear since 75.

Yep, trolling.

But it's ok, keep thinking RDM is meant to melee, meanwhile everyone who is smart enough to realize a square won't fit into a round hole will be playing bluemage.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Please read, he said some of the time, not all, not most, but some, you're just making yourself look stupid now. Even Whm and Smn can melee some of the time too. Is it efficient for most stuff? No, can you do it on weaker stuff, yes.

5% DA rate is still a pretty terrible spell.

[Shiyo]

Please read, he said some of the time, not all, not most, but some, you're just making yourself look stupid now. Even Whm and Smn can melee some of the time too. Is it efficient for most stuff? No, can you do it on weaker stuff, yes.

5% DA rate is still a pretty terrible spell.

Then why are we wasting time on trying to buff our melee if we only melee things that are so weak it doesn't even matter?

....makes no sense. Please buff us for party play and stronger monsters, thank you.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I am hoping that's what the proposed enfeeblement adjustment will do, but I've almost given up on hoping with SE's track history. I don't mind them releasing a melee spell, but this one is nearly as bad as Enspell 2 as it stands in my opinion.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Also the warlock gloves/boots raise parrying/shield, which are technically frontline buffs, parrying is a bit iffy since one can parry with a staff, but shield is not. And warlock gloves and duelist tights have dex on them, but im sure thats so we can...uhm...magic...better? Then again square does like picking one piece of the origional AF gear and just going "Random stat goes here!" like rdm's chr on warlock body, or smn's vit on...i believe gloves? Or whm's str on gloves (which is awesome) or so-on.

[Rambus]

Saying a RDM should get a reraise spell is like saying PLD should get it too, they never had that line of spells.

I would be more upset over not having something to compare to cure V then reraise, ohhhhh a main job that has a line of spells has the same spells off a sub, that's logical.

Why should sub haste be the same amount as it coming from a main? I still think SE did not really thought out the spell progress jobs should have.

[Rayik]

Yeah, clearly I'm trolling, that would explain why not a single piece of our AF3 has a single melee boosting stat on it at all. It would also explain why we've gotten very very very very few pieces of melee gear since 75.

Yep, trolling.

But it's ok, keep thinking RDM is meant to melee, meanwhile everyone who is smart enough to realize a square won't fit into a round hole will be playing bluemage.

EDIT: On second thought, nevermind. It's clear from your posts you have zero knowledge of RDM outside of opening chests and healing, and have zero interest in hearing any other input than your own, so there's really nothing left for either of us to say to each other.

[cidbahamut]

Edit: post I was responding to got edited. Now I has a sad.

[Rayik]

Edit: post I was responding to got edited. Now I has a sad.

I put Shiyo on my ignore list, right next to Rosina, since they contribute knowledge and discussion about equally. I edited my post because I was falling for another senseless troll attempt.

[saevel]

EDIT: On second thought, nevermind. It's clear from your posts you have zero knowledge of RDM outside of opening chests and healing, and have zero interest in hearing any other input than your own, so there's really nothing left for either of us to say to each other.

I remember saying earlier she was just a troll and the best thing for everyone to do was add her to your ignore list. I've done so any multiple "RDM sux your not a melee not shutup and make me a sammich" people, makes browsing the forums MUCH easier.

[Rayik]

I remember saying earlier she was just a troll and the best thing for everyone to do was add her to your ignore list. I've done so any multiple "RDM sux your not a melee not shutup and make me a sammich" people, makes browsing the forums MUCH easier.

Exactly.

I would love to actually make a RDM melee thread and discuss RDM melee; gear, styles, set ups, areas in game that work ell, etc. Sadly, that'd be impossible in the current state of this forum. It would just be more of the same BS and never-ending circles.

[Covenant]

The great RDM vs Bluemage debate... Well, I see both jobs in totally different light. Though, a blue Mage has better physical spells(cheaper mp, less casting time)...blues have greater TP gain(mob) and greater enimity gain...plus their magical spells are ridiculously long casted with low damage.

Redmages, have access to slow nukes, but are pretty strong when they hit. With enspells, Redmages hit are the same level as blue ages, on normal melee swings. Chainspell, can drop most mobs by a quick amount. And RDM's aren't tied down by "blue points" and spell selection. Between break and sleep, RDM can do a nifty job of keeping mobs down, just as much as a headbutt can.

Both job are dependent on their sub job selection. Both can increase melee and magical damage based on gear choices. And both can fill in "support" slots.

Blue is more solo orientated, while RDM's take a more direct approach with party aid.

[Luces]

I'm flat out asking a mod why Shiyo hasn't been topic banned yet, even at ffxiah they would have banned them by now. No one can seriously behave like that and be old enough to be on the forums. They don't bring anything to to conversation and they are constantly derailing the thread. Also Shiyo before you open your mouth do some research you obviously have no understanding of what rdm can and can't use or do. Shiyo if you notice 85% RDM pictures SE released has them wielding a sword(from SE) another 9% with dagger and another 6% with a staff, so this should tell you not every time is right to be meleeing; based on your logic. Also in your booklet under job descriptions at least it is in a couple of the ones I have, it says rdm infuses his sword with his magic to better lend his aid in battle. Also they constantly pull the thread off topic. Rdm empy+2 gear allowed us to enhance others, and make it worth the mp cost, strength our enfeebling, and bring our magic attack to new highs they have never been. This also allowed rdm to no longer need Elemental staffs to land slow2, blind2, para2, ect at cap. In other words I can cap slow/para2 on 90% of nms who aren't immune to it while wielding my Almace and C.flueret. The AF+3 has made it easier for rdm to do the job it needs to while using swords like it never has been able to before. I also play blu and a well geared blu's CDC outside abyssea only average 160 more damage then a well geared rdm. inside they aren't much difference blu get's to stay ahead because of it's ability to wear Loki's but the average blu cdc in abyssea is only about 300 stronger. RDM hits hard enough to just give to much tp, if it's a mob where top doesn't matter, then this is void. Temper will have great uses. MY RDM does melee at ls event's and contributes a good amount of damage. Is it game breaking? no is it worth me being on the mob unless he has aoe to watch out, more than.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I'm flat out asking a mod why Shiyo hasn't been topic banned yet, even at ffxiah they would have banned them by now. No one can seriously behave like that and be old enough to be on the forums. They don't bring anything to to conversation and they are constantly derailing the thread. Also Shiyo before you open your mouth do some research you obviously have no understanding of what rdm can and can't use or do. Shiyo if you notice 85% RDM pictures SE released has them wielding a sword(from SE) another 9% with dagger and another 6% with a staff, so this should tell you not every time is right to be meleeing; based on your logic. Also in your booklet under job descriptions at least it is in a couple of the ones I have, it says rdm infuses his sword with his magic to better lend his aid in battle. Also they constantly pull the thread off topic. Rdm empy+2 gear allowed us to enhance others, and make it worth the mp cost, strength our enfeebling, and bring our magic attack to new highs they have never been. This also allowed rdm to no longer need Elemental staffs to land slow2, blind2, para2, ect at cap. In other words I can cap slow/para2 on 90% of nms who aren't immune to it while wielding my Almace and C.flueret. The AF+3 has made it easier for rdm to do the job it needs to while using swords like it never has been able to before. I also play blu and a well geared blu's CDC outside abyssea only average 160 more damage then a well geared rdm. inside they aren't much difference blu get's to stay ahead because of it's ability to wear Loki's but the average blu cdc in abyssea is only about 300 stronger. RDM hits hard enough to just give to much tp, if it's a mob where top doesn't matter, then this is void. Temper will have great uses. MY RDM does melee at ls event's and contributes a good amount of damage. Is it game breaking? no is it worth me being on the mob unless he has aoe to watch out, more than.

You're not meant to feed them.

PS. Don't forget come lvl. 99 we'll have access to Gain-DEX which if it sticks to the current format will be around +25 DEX. So not too bad.

[saevel]

Well seeing as the skill rate is +7 per level from 91 to 95, we gain 35 skill then another 28 from 96 to 99. That's 63 skill or +6 stat gained from now till then. And I'm spying a new +5 belt I'm gonna be after. So between that 63 and that +5 I'm looking at a +7 gain in my stat spells. I'm enjoy it more and more.

[SpankWustler]

Yeah, after hearing from the brave boys on the shores of the test server, my opinion of the Gain and Boost spells is much higher as well.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Noticed this on the German Forum.


* Holds an information desk sign over her head *
New to the RDM. It will be nice new spells, but they can not make it to the next version update. The developers will also take care of the Enfeebling / Resistance problem.

[Kristal]

Shame Red Mages can't go all Gandalf... sword&staff ftw. (With staff being held in the sub slot.)
For RDMs in FFXI, that would mean:
* you gain the (magic) bonusses of the staff
* you lose shield bonuses (if any)
* you lose dual wield bonusses (if any)
* you still lose TP if swapping the staff

[Doombringer]

Shame Red Mages can't go all Gandalf... sword&staff ftw. (With staff being held in the sub slot.)
For RDMs in FFXI, that would mean:
* you gain the (magic) bonusses of the staff
* you lose shield bonuses (if any)
* you lose dual wield bonusses (if any)
* you still lose TP if swapping the staff

skyrim is gonna be SOOOOO fun. >.>

[CapriciousOne]

Why would you be trying to melee them? That's just asking to die. THF's are insanely hard to hit, MNK's can CS and use Emp WS to nearly one shot you, BLU's will stun lock you the moment your within casting range, PLD's will just laugh at you as your won't scratch their paint. PVP is the one place you want to be pure page, stay as far away from the enemy as possible and wear them down over time. If you stay away your basically invulnerable, if you get close you provide them with a chance to use their abilities and seriously hurt you.



Well me I melee because the mp cost of elementals is awful even with the damage they deal as well as the long casting/recasting times between them. This combination in it self is why I PREFER to melee RDM more than use magic. Meleeing also allows my Refresh 2 to restore more mp while I wait on recasts for my highest tier spells. I usually RDM/DNC because of sambas which also assist my regen 2/ refresh 2 spells for keeping up hp/mp as well as the steps that lower defense and evasion further than Dia and Gravity can accomplish. Gravity, slow, quick step, and blind2 helps with thieves, paladins arent really all that much of an issue when you have higher tier protect and shell combined with fully merited phalanx 2 and keep them bio ii to reduce thier attack power to lower damage taken. I cant say much about going against a Blu mage as I havent faced many BLU Nm or anything else for that matter but silence, paralyze, and keeping up barthunder I imagine would help reduce to effectiveness of any stun type moves and so would having your own shock spikes up to help stun them.

In any case paralyga, slowga, and any other -ga spell for rdm I was only referring to in terms of soloing and dealing with links a little more effectively. Slowga, paralyga, silencga, sleepga, when used in combination all reduce the overall attack rounds a mob would have to attack you giving you extra "free shots" if you will to damage the mob further than you otherwise would without them. These ga spells would also prove useful in battlefields with multiple mobs that need to be defeated in a time limit. I just always believe in having more than one of anything (healer/nuker/enfeebler etc.) RDM is unique as that it can serve as a stand in to any of those roles with little gear change needed to do so though they are still helpful to have.

[CapriciousOne]

based on the descriptions I agree they would be casted on a party member and that party member will receive that effect.

[cidbahamut]

based on the descriptions I agree they would be casted on a party member and that party member will receive that effect.

Stop double posting and replying to thin air. It's bad forum etiquette.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

based on the descriptions I agree they would be casted on a party member and that party member will receive that effect.

Are you on about the JA's? If so they are able to be cast on others.

[Ophannus]

What's the point of our set effect on AF3? Enhances composure so that our enhancing magic lasts longer on others. That's pure crap seeing as RDM has maybe 3 spells that we can cast on others despite having the highest enhancing skill not counting Phalanx II, a merit spell. Regen/Refresh/Haste is about all we can cast on others. RDM nukes are as bad on Voidwatch NMs as they were at 75 on Kings/Sky Gods. RDM has nothing to contribute to anything in FFXI outside of our merit spells. Our nukes are second-rate, our cures are third rate, our debuffs are nice but not even by a wide margin. We have Slow II which is still only 75% as good as Carnage Elegy, WHM is getting Addle but we can't get Cure V. Boost-Spells are nice at 95, can get +20ish STR with good enhancing magic but guess what WHM gets the AoE version.

Seriously everyone says RDM contributes with good enfeebles but our enfeebles don't make much of a difference. Blind/Blind 2 are a joke. Poison is insignificant. Paralyze has trouble landing and is random. Slow 2 is decent but TP moves are what kill alliances. Dia III is great but it's a merit spell. All of our good enhancing spells are self-only except for Refresh II which isn't even useful anymore since everyone can Convert and Refresh themselves, making Refresh II a novelty. Our barspells are stronger than WHM but we don't have the gear to augment them and can't aoe them either. RDM is a bad, bad job.

[Ophannus]

I hate how SE has made almost every NM immune to Sleep/Gravity/Bind/Silence since Rise of Zilart came out. Our primary task as a RDM is to debuff. If you make NMs that are immune to debuffs, then let's start making NMs that are immune to Great Katana damage or Great Axe damage.

[Stylin]

WHM is getting Addle

I'm sorry, I agree with most of what you're saying but I don't understand this. Why is this such a sticking point for everybody? Addle isn't even that spectacular.

[Septimus]

I'm sorry, I agree with most of what you're saying but I don't understand this. Why is this such a sticking point for everybody? Addle isn't even that spectacular.

Not to mention that people knew that WHM was getting Addle for months now, since October of last year (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/index.php?title=Addle&action=history).

[Ophannus]

It's a sticking point because they keep saying it'll upset game balance if other jobs get stronger cures and will ruin WHM's uniqueness yet at the same time give away everything that makes RDM unique like Refresh/Dispel/FULL STRENGTH CONVERT and now Addle. At 99 BLM/RDM will get Haste too.

[Hyrist]

Right, it's a sticking point because pretty much the only unique spells in RDM's line right now are Refresh II, the Merit spell line, our lolEnspell-IIs And soon to be Temper.

All other spells are hashed out to other players sometimes before we even get them. This especially stings in the debuff department as it's supposed to be our specality, where the only thing that seperates us is the merit spells and Saboteur.

[Ophannus]

Like I said, just give us Cure 5 but remove the low enmity factor and remove the part of the formula that adds in VIT and maybe even reduce the amount that Healing Skill is factored in. In the end it'd be a Cure 4.5 with more enmity but it's still something. My DRG makes a better healer than my RDM.

[Kristal]

SE doesn't want to give RDMs Cure V.. fine. Give us Curasa : Restores HP to a party member. The lower the HP is, the more it will recover.

It's THAT simple. It's not Cure V, unless the target is below 25% HP.

WHMs can get the aoe version, Curaja.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

SE doesn't want to give RDMs Cure V.. fine. Give us Curasa : Restores HP to a party member. The lower the HP is, the more it will recover.

It's THAT simple. It's not Cure V, unless the target is below 25% HP.

WHMs can get the aoe version, Curaja.

RDM is not SCH, they never said they wouldn't give it to RDM, they did so for SCH.

[Stylin]

It's a sticking point because they keep saying it'll upset game balance if other jobs get stronger cures and will ruin WHM's uniqueness yet at the same time give away everything that makes RDM unique like Refresh/Dispel/FULL STRENGTH CONVERT and now Addle. At 99 BLM/RDM will get Haste too.

What does any of that have to do with anything? Addle is not that special to warrant such fervor. It's more or less a Plan B for mobs that can't be silenced. The fact that a majority of new NMs can't be silenced is not something to be proud that we have Addle for. Rayik already pointed out that it was never meant to be a spell unique to RDM. Considering how WHM already shares the other White Magic enfeebles it surprises me how people were blind-sided by this update.

[Sasaraixx]

No, they never said that they would not give SCH Cure V. They specifically said that they would look into other methods to improve healing, but that it does not mean they will not add Cure V at a later date.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

What does any of that have to do with anything? Addle is not that special to warrant such fervor. It's more or less a Plan B for mobs that can't be silenced. The fact that a majority of new NMs can't be silenced is not something to be proud that we have Addle for. Rayik already pointed out that it was never meant to be a spell unique to RDM. Considering how WHM already shares the other White Magic enfeebles it surprises me how people were blind-sided by this update.

To be fair just because it's White Magic doesn't mean it will always go to WHM. Gravity, and soon to be Gravity II is Black Magic and no one else got them but RDM. (not including /rdm)

We knew Addle was going to WHM, but just saying just because it's their type doesn't mean they will always get it.

[Stylin]

We knew Addle was going to WHM, but just saying just because it's their type doesn't mean they will always get it.

Of course not. I'm just saying freaking out over it is uncalled for, no matter what your stance is.

[Ophannus]

RDM's specialty is enfeebling and enhancing yet 95% of our most potent enfeeble and enhancing spells go to other jobs. WHM specializes in healing but they have a monopoly on the potent healing spells and regens. Gravity II is probably going to be really dumb as almost nothing is susceptible to Gravity anymore unless they make it like Flash or something and have it give a super potent evasion down effect also.

Para2/Slow2 are nice but our job's usefulness shouldn't be dictated solely based on merits. That's like making Cure5/Cure6/Esuna and Auspice merit spells. Most jobs fare pretty much the same without merits. Take away BLMS AM2 and they're more or less the same. Take away NIN's Sange or San spells, they're the same. Take away Feint or Aura Steal from a THF, they're the same. Take away Chivalry or Fealty from a PLD they're the same. But take away Para2/Slow2 from a RDM and you cripple literally the only things that make a RDM it's own class. A RDM90 is basically a BLM75/37RDM in almost every way except without AoEs.

Everything useful that RDM has or has ever gotten is from level 1-49 which soon anyone can gain from subbing.

My dreams/hopes for RDM:
-Nerf Convert to be 50% as potent when subbed.
-Make Refresh1 give 2mp/tick(makes RDM main more appealing)
-Remove immunities to Bind/Sleep/Break/Silence/Gravity on NMs.
-Vastly increase the potency of Paralyze 2 and Slow 2.
-Increase the potency of Phalanx/Phalanx 2.
-Make Enhancing Skill affect enhancing spells more.
-Nerf Haste/Hastega spells for /WHM /RDM and upcoming /SMN.
-Give RDM a specialist at Fencer traits. No job deserves Fencer more than RDM --the job that's actually a Fencer and has Fencing related equipment including equipment with the word Fencer in the name.
-Add a job ability or spell(Temper maybe) that allows use of EX Sword Weapon Skills i.e Red Lotus Blade/Vorpal Blade.
-Add an enfeeble strictly for RDM that lowers the target's Magic Defense and Magic Evasion.
-Poison III
-Regen III and/or Refresh III(WHM can get Regen IV and Regen merits/gear, but we're stuck on Refresh II)
-Dispel should remove more buffs relative to enfeebling skill(RDM and SCH ONLY)
-Increase Healing and Elemental skill to B- or B+.
-Increase Sword skill to A-, leave Dagger at B+.
-Increase Shield Skill to B-.
-Increase Parrying Skill to B-.
-Increase Enhancing Skill to A+.
-Allow Gain-Stat spells to not only be able to be casted on self, but also single target as well like Regen/Refresh.
-Haste 2 at 99.(This should only happen if Haste for /WHM40 and /RDM48 is not weakened, why should /NIN's Utsusemi Ni be reduced to 3 shadows and /THF's Sneak Attack reduced but /RDM and /WHM's Haste are full strength?)
-Scale Blink to grant more shadows every 100 enhancing skill or something. It could be 4-5 Blink Shadows at around 400 skill making it not a completely worthless spell at higher levels.
-Increase base for Stoneskin, nobody wants to carry around 4 pieces of gear to enhance Stoneskin. Some of these pieces are hard to obtain because nobody does Campaign Ops.
-Make Spontaneity a 5 minute recast. 10 minutes doesn't make it a useful tool, it makes it a novelty like Circles/Breakers for SAM/DRK/DRG/PLD. Sekkanoki is a miniature Meikyo Sishui and is a 5min recast but Spontaneity, a miniature Chainspell is a 10 minute recast. Which is the stronger ability? The one that can be used to make a 4,000 damage light skillchain with 200% TP every 5 minutes or the one that lets you instant cast a Cure 4 or a Sleep 2 once every 10 minutes?

In summation, the only reason anyone would allow a RDM into an alliance at 99 would be for Paralyze2/Slow2 and Dia 3 only. At 99 BRD/SMNs will be able to March 3/March2 along with Hastega'ing the alliance. Even BLM/RDMs can haste. Refresh II won't matter because all mages are /RDM for their own Refresh and Convert. Along with their AF3 which gives +2 Refresh, Refresh II spell on RDM is superfluous. RDM's can't heal or nuke anything important without Cruor buffs and Atmas outside of Abyssea. We have C- Elemental magic and second-rate access to MAB gear outside of our Empyrean armor. We can hardly heal, we can barely nuke, our enfeebles are tepid and lackluster, our melee/swordsmanship is extremely underpowered for anything outside of casual soloing. Despite having the highest enhancing skill in the entire game, none of the spells we can cast on others is affected by enhancing skill(Refresh/Regen/Haste) aside from a merit spell, which even with 5/5 merits is equal to a SCH's Phalanx+Accession and WHM gets AoEs of all of our good enhancing skills (Boost-Stats/Bar-Spells).

RDM is a Paralyze 2/Slow 2/Dia 3 machine at 90, and that's all. Our entire job's usefulness is based on 3 merit spells and nothing else.

[Seriha]

No on Gains to others, Haste II, Cure V, and just trying to nerf shit because you're unhappy. I'll be one of the first to point out the pending homogenization between RDM and SCH come 99, especially with the insistence that RDM should never draw a sword according to some, but that's more or less justification for RDM to grow its own way instead of cutting everyone off from nearing what it was.

There are still a lot of potential enfeebles SE could tap into, some existing on other jobs like BLU, while others we've mulled over here and elsewhere. I see this path as being far more feasible than the spiel about being demi-god buffers, but it all hinges on SE actually trying to make enfeebling be worth something, or dare I say, required. Whatever comes of it, I want the possibility of multiple RDMs being present to be considered, so new enfeebles could be built up to an ultimate potency with multiple casts like DNC steps instead of lamely having no effect.

[Ophannus]

I don't see why we can't Gain on others even if it's single target and in party like Etudes. What's even the point of giving us Gain-AGI/Gain-CHR anyway if not for completion's sake? Would be nice in low man to cast AGI on a THF or maybe CHR on a BRD or something but we'll realistically never use those spells because they're no important for RDM 99.9999% of the time! I normally wouldn't care but since SE said the Game's Spell-list is reaching maximum capacity, why bother adding superfluous spells like Gain-CHR for RDM if we can't even cast on others. That's a total waste of a potential spell for another job or ours that will now never come to be because it's taking up a space with its miserable existence. It would be nice if enfeebls from different sorts all stacked the way Slow II and Elegy stack. Maybe give Jubaku and Hojo their own Icons and let them stack with Slow/Paralyze also? Could be nice to have cumulative Slow/Paralyze/Gravity enfeebles the way Dia/Box Step/Angon all stack.

[Neisan_Quetz]

dAGI buff. CHR... I still don't have, and probably never will have, it's just continuing in the line of gain spells for each stat.

[Doombringer]

just ftr, rdms current dagger skill is B, not B+

then, as far as a ja/spell to gain access to ex ws's... i'm sorta hoping we just GET those with the coming proficiency update. rather than atatching them to a spell.

as for fencer.. i don't think it would really outweigh DW. i'd be equally happy if SE just stopped trolling rdm's everywhere and changed the damn name..

healing is a tough one.... not only do we not wanna step on whms toes... but you also need to figure in scholar.. should scholar be a better or worse healer than rdm? because that effects where rdm needs to land, since you may need to leave room between rdm and whm for sch.
for rdm anyway..
1) i'd like to see composure changed, so it effects all members. then give regen3/4 to rdm. with composures duration buff, that becomes a LOT of hp recovered for the mp spent.. it doesn't really solve the "holy shit!" problem but it's a step in the right direction. think about it... regen4 fulltimed?

or

2)alternately, i'd like to see the enmity reductions for cure 5 (and maybe 6) removed, then give whm a significantly stronger tranquil heart trait. make it so they break even (may even buff them when you consider cure4) while making room for rdm or sch to cure5 if it's really critical. it needs to be limited somehow.. regardless of how much "better" whm can cure, if rdm/whm could FREELY cast cure5.. that would be "good enough" and we'd likely be right back to toau.

or

3) lets just get way more fast cast? like a crazy amount. to the point where we can fire off 2 cure4's in the time it takes a whm to do 1 cure5. there is an issue here with that being crazy overpowered when you consider stuff like utsusemi or sleep, but it's something to toy with. maybe just lower the recast on cures?

[Seriha]

While Gains on others can be useful, sure, it's not another cycle I'd welcome.

[Rayik]

I'm really curious about this "WS adjustment" portion of the update. In that Dev response we got earlier(can't remember if it was in this thread) Camate noted RDM specifically, so my big question is are we getting access to other EX WS's(Vorpal, Sanguine, etc), or are they just fixing the numbers on the ones we already have(Savage Blade, etc)?

[Ophannus]

SCH can get Cure 5 just make it require Addendum White. RDM should have gotten Cure 5 this update as we've always gained Cure Spells about 5-6 levels before SCH and PLD. THey keep saying they don't want to overpower RDM by giving us Cure 5 but they said they had a similar stance to not letting BLU equip KC/Joyeuse/Ridill, and now BLU can use OAT and OA2-4 swords.

[Hyrist]

they said they had a similar stance to not letting BLU equip KC/Joyeuse/Ridill, and now BLU can use OAT and OA2-4 swords.

Two different dynamics.

Dealing Damage with multi-attack weapons is offset by the fact that the damage values of these weapons are low and the fact that both you and the monster are gaining TP at an enhanced rate.

Curing, however, does not come with that balance factor, Cure V in particular being even more-so with this as it does not come with the potentially dangerous hate spike Cure IV can provide. Furthermore, the additional traits and abilities White Mage get to make it a superior healer is not always necessary for a number of situations. Giving Red Mage and Scholar Cure V puts them in direct competition for a slot that the developers pretty much perceive as designated for the White Mage to fill, as curing and status removal is the root selling point of the job, offering little else.

Keeping the healing performance so widely differentiated helps White Mages keep the position they have, one that the developers had to piratically redesign the job to wrest from the hands of Pink Mages.

[SpankWustler]

If White Mage were to receive just 1~5% more "Converts % of 'Cure' amount to MP" effect some some new source, the job would have a HUGE lead in cure MP efficiency when properly equipped. Maybe I'm nuts, but I assume the effect will be on another piece of equipment or a level 99 merit.

Something along those lines would pretty well blot out the main reason Scholar or Red Mage could overtake White Mage for marathon events, and maybe the jobs could finally get some new and much needed tools for keeping folks less dead.

[Hyrist]

Something along those lines would pretty well blot out the main reason Scholar or Red Mage could overtake White Mage for marathon events, and maybe the jobs could finally get some new and much needed tools for keeping folks less dead.

You're seriously mistaking the reason why RDM and SCH would best out WHM .

It's not that they would beat out WHM's curing in the long haul, that may have been part of the reason during the ToAU era.

The issue now is what the job offers ASIDE from curing. IF SCH and RDM can handle main healing on their own as a 'viable healer', they could likely do so and provide some of their other important support functions as well, reducing the amount of support slots players need in a party so more DD's can join in. WHM get's bumped out because they offer very little else to the group.

This gets even moreso for Scholar in fights as they could 2hr Embrava up for a specific section of the fight, and they've already got an AoE stat increase like the Boost spells. With /RDM giving hast at 99 that lack of curing power is going to be all it lacks to overpower WHM's position for all but the most hecktic fights.

RDM's higher Debuff Line, and longer duration buffs make it superior at dolling out Haste to the needed Melees, and Refresh II out paces Martyr. /SCH or /WHM provides the status removal needed and Stratagems /SCH can provide some elemental resistance needed. Pair that off with the highest fast cast of any job.

Then you have Saboter. Need a stronger Slow II? A better Dia III? RDM can flex it's debuffs to whatever the party desires while being the original self-sustained for support.

These are pretty compelling reasons for keeping RDM's and SCH's healing potential in check. Unless they start giving some other means of support on WHM more than what they have to support the party, WHM is going to start looking like overkill on everything but the toughest mobs/events in which both consistently high damage, and nasty status effects are a frequently recurring problem.

I might not like being able to cure bomb my allies anymore, but I fully understand the reasoning. And I'd much rather have more unique spells and have less raw curing potential, then have the curing potential and be shoved in the WHM corner for general use.

[SpankWustler]

Oh no! Jobs meant to do multiple things would be desired due to their ability to do multiple things, particular when a lot of one thing isn't needed!

[Godsman1]

i got a question . if i have been away from ffxi for 5 years , how many updates can i expect

[Ophannus]

Camate has addressed feedback and tweaks to all jobs that received an update this patch except PLD and RDM and WHM. I think every other job has had its abilities altered, shortened, strengthened or adjusted in some way except Palisade/Temper/Spontaneity.

SCH: Klaustra/Embrava/Tabula Rasa boosts
SMN: Stunga casting time
BLM: Comet damage
DRG: Steady Wing strengthened.
NIN: That new Parry JA enhanced
SAM: Hagakure recast reduced.
BRD: Pianissmo reduced and Mercado potency reduced.
BLU: Dark Orb MP reduced, Heavy Strike accuracy reduced.
BST: Pets being voted on right now on BST forums.
RNG: I don't think this was adjusted but they gave evidence and reasons why.

[Hyrist]

Oh no! Jobs meant to do multiple things would be desired due to their ability to do multiple things, particular when a lot of one thing isn't needed!

When your primary, designated job for healing does one thing well, and offers little else yeah. It's a problem. WHM should be the go to being a 'main healer'. And if you want to go without it, invite more hybrids or other jobs that help reduce damage.

ToAU's exp/meriting system was nothing short of a pox on the game and a serenade to mindless melees. Why do you think I want a variant endgame and more variant forms of job play?

I'm not saying remove RDM and SCH from the healers list completely, but tone down their position so that WHM is still a consideration even when their curing ability is overkill, and give RDM and SCH more availability and viability in differing departments so that inviting any combination of these doesn't seem so counter-productive. (Same for giving WHM something to offer in lesser cure Demanding situations.) I'm in support of this for Melee jobs as well.

There shouldn't be any 'one right answer' to approach a situation, regardless of its difficulty. The idea of what makes an MMO so worthwhile is that it is so large and variant.

SE has been doing a fairly good job so far enforcing this approach, in spite of some of the short-sighted bawwing I keep seeing.

[cidbahamut]

There shouldn't be any 'one right answer' to approach a situation, regardless of its difficulty. The idea of what makes an MMO so worthwhile is that it is so large and variant.

"We need a white mage, nothing else will do". There's your variety, how do you like it?

[saevel]

then, as far as a ja/spell to gain access to ex ws's... i'm sorta hoping we just GET those with the coming proficiency update. rather than atatching them to a spell.

as for fencer.. i don't think it would really outweigh DW. i'd be equally happy if SE just stopped trolling rdm's everywhere and changed the damn name..

healing is a tough one.... not only do we not wanna step on whms toes... but you also need to figure in scholar.. should scholar be a better or worse healer than rdm? because that effects where rdm needs to land, since you may need to leave room between rdm and whm for sch.
for rdm anyway..
1) i'd like to see composure changed, so it effects all members. then give regen3/4 to rdm. with composures duration buff, that becomes a LOT of hp recovered for the mp spent.. it doesn't really solve the "holy shit!" problem but it's a step in the right direction. think about it... regen4 fulltimed?

or

2)alternately, i'd like to see the enmity reductions for cure 5 (and maybe 6) removed, then give whm a significantly stronger tranquil heart trait. make it so they break even (may even buff them when you consider cure4) while making room for rdm or sch to cure5 if it's really critical. it needs to be limited somehow.. regardless of how much "better" whm can cure, if rdm/whm could FREELY cast cure5.. that would be "good enough" and we'd likely be right back to toau.

or

3) lets just get way more fast cast? like a crazy amount. to the point where we can fire off 2 cure4's in the time it takes a whm to do 1 cure5. there is an issue here with that being crazy overpowered when you consider stuff like utsusemi or sleep, but it's something to toy with. maybe just lower the recast on cures?

I agree, although we really should get fencer for times when we're not /NIN or /DNC. I often find that I'm /DRK or /SCH in fights, having Fencer as a native JT would be handy.

I'm pretty big on HOT's for RDM, they fit right into our style. People keep seeing Regen as healing magic, it's not. The Regen series is enhancing magic and all rules apply, including the crazy long self casts with composure and the 80~90% bonus duration with Emp Armor on others. SE was cheap as hell for making Regen II as lv 75 spell, it should of been lv 60 wtih Regen's III-IV being given by 90. They then need to create a special RDM only Regen that is incredibly potent and scales with enhancing magic, but only lasts 30s (10 ticks). This would be similar to SCH's helix's only a heal for PT members.

WHM would still have the raw cure power, but RDM could step in and support the WHM's much easier then me sprinkling cure IV's everywhere. I can see giving SCH cure V under Apend White, it would limit them enough that they couldn't access their DA abilities without wasting a charge. Then as a coupe de grace, make accession work with ALL enhancing magic period, end of story. Refresh II -ga, Haste ga, Regen III/IV -ga, Temper -ga, whatever it should work. Even RR-ga would be on the table due to the insane casting / recasting time it would involve.

[SpankWustler]

I'm not saying remove RDM and SCH from the healers list completely, but tone down their position so that WHM is still a consideration even when their curing ability is overkill, and give RDM and SCH more availability and viability in differing departments so that inviting any combination of these doesn't seem so counter-productive. (Same for giving WHM something to offer in lesser cure Demanding situations.) I'm in support of this for Melee jobs as well.

There shouldn't be any 'one right answer' to approach a situation, regardless of its difficulty. The idea of what makes an MMO so worthwhile is that it is so large and variant.

Ideally, I'd want a creative solution that would let all jobs with Healing and Enhancing ability work together for difficult content while also allowing any one of those jobs to fill the role for more laid-back content in a smaller group. I'm not really sure what kind of spells would accomplish this, but Cure IV forever is a pretty boring way to keep people alive when it is sufficient.

There's always going to be one choice that's better by some margin, since FFXI is built out of math equations. I'm fine with this as long as the options are appealing enough for it to feel like a choice.

[Hyrist]

"We need a white mage, nothing else will do". There's your variety, how do you like it?

Sounds a whole lot like the ToAU mentality that players never evolved out of, actually.

Except back then it was 'Red Mage'.

If some people insist on having one person to bear the responsibility (and therefore, the blame) for their healing duties, that is on them. For the 99 endgame, there needs to be a different role or niche to bring to the table for each job, or SE failed in the intent of their manifesto.

White Mage is "THE Healer.", and if elitists insist that means they the only way to do things, then they can watch their community shrink as the alternatives get larger and more enjoyable. Otherwise, as their are plenty of underused hybrid jobs in the game, the best way to assure the increase of their use is to tone back the general healing power of the base (Save for the healing specialist), and make a game that relies upon an intelligent defense rather than an overpowering healing or damage output.


Ideally, I'd want a creative solution that would let all jobs with Healing and Enhancing ability work together for difficult content while also allowing any one of those jobs to fill the role for more laid-back content in a smaller group. I'm not really sure what kind of spells would accomplish this, but Cure IV forever is a pretty boring way to keep people alive when it is sufficient.

There's always going to be one choice that's better by some margin, since FFXI is built out of math equations. I'm fine with this as long as the options are appealing enough for it to feel like a choice.

I don't understand why this is so difficult for people.

Gradual regeneration would be the answer to this circumstance. The biggest danager that would be the issue as far as keeping WHM in it's spot is the fact that it the most consistent burst healer in the game. Dancer has long timers on its heals, Soulsouther puppets have uncontrolled targeting, and Blue Mage has limited space/MP to use it with.

But any of these paired in with less intensity needed in curing is more than fine.

Where RDM and SCH can fill in, as it's a gap, is a sustained healing over time. The biggest standing concern really against Cure IV besides the hate is that we have to cast it over and over again to manage our gradual cure. So the solution would be of course to give us a stronger cure over time.

In other words: Regen.

The simple and most effective solution, in my view is this:

Give Regen III to Red Mage an Scholar both, make it Accessionable.

Then give Scholar a 'Curehelix' that restores HP exactly in the same fashion as a Helix spell does, but effected by Cure Potency gear on the initial tic.

Give RDM a Debuff to, at the very minimum, reduce the damage inflicted by TP moves. (Perhaps a fast cast, limiting recast spell that severely hampers the damage of the next enemy TP move).

If both of these factors are not enough to count them as "Viable" for long term healing, repeat the process with Regen IV for one or both of the jobs.

As far as Short term, spike healing, there are plenty of jobs now that have burst healing available, use them.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

SCH has Regen III, also SCH should really get Regen IV and maybe even V way before WHM. I've never understood how they got Regen and Regen II earlier than WHM but not III or IV.

I like the helix idea for SCH, maybe as an idea to aid the party RDM could just get an Enhancing Spell like BLU's new new one that grants a set % of -Damage taken, maybe even stick to the Phalanx line and call it Phalanx III (party targetable).

[Hyrist]

I like the helix idea for SCH, maybe as an idea to aid the party RDM could just get an Enhancing Spell like BLU's new new one that grants a set % of -Damage taken, maybe even stick to the Phalanx line and call it Phalanx III (party targetable).

With Phalanx II as a merit spell, you'd have to remove the catagory and give us the spell natively for us to receive a tier III in all fairness.

Not that you'd hear me complain if that were the case, mind you.

But I would also like an Enfeeble that was straight damage reduction of a TP move, or other consequence to it that would give RDM's some leeway on these TP move Heavy mobs.

In any case, RDM's direction towards being a better 'healer' should really be more in preventing damage rather than curing it. But no augments here about them getting Regen IV. But lets leave the burst curing to the jobs that currently have it, and give SCH and RDM a more gradual recovery scale. It's likely the best way to increase their potential and not step on WHM's toes so much.

[Doombringer]

Ideally, I'd want a creative solution that would let all jobs with Healing and Enhancing ability work together for difficult content while also allowing any one of those jobs to fill the role for more laid-back content in a smaller group. I'm not really sure what kind of spells would accomplish this, but Cure IV forever is a pretty boring way to keep people alive when it is sufficient.

There's always going to be one choice that's better by some margin, since FFXI is built out of math equations. I'm fine with this as long as the options are appealing enough for it to feel like a choice.


INSPIRATION!!

you know that new earring that had "potency of cure effect RECIEVED +5%"? lets make that a spell! give it a strong duration, single targetable, and HEAVILY influenced by enhancing magic skill (this way if they decide to give it to whm later we may still have the "better" version) you put it on your tank, and huzzah!

then in a bigger group situation, this is still helpful even if you have a whm. you're helping him cure more efficiently. this also mitigates the issue of being as overpowered as giving rdm cure5 proper because you can't cast these bigger cures freely, you have to setup and "predict" who is going to be taking the damage. and if you end up "needing" it on 4-5 melees.. well.. then you get a whm?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Needs to break the potency cap, or be calculated differently but not bad imo. I'll mull over it later.

[cidbahamut]

Lots of stuff about Regen
Sometimes I have to wonder if we're even playing the same game Hyrist. I love regen to death and abused it shamelessly whenever possible, but as it currently stands Regens aren't a realistic approach to keeping people Not Dead.

If you want Regens to be even remotely viable, you're going to have to overhaul the entire spell line and even then you're still going to run into balance issues because all you're accomplishing is buffing White Mages to make them even more overpowered than they already are. Anyone who thinks White Mage is ever getting dethroned has their head stuck in a 2005 colibri merit party and is completely out of touch with how the game works in 2011. White Mage is king and nothing is going to put a dent in its powerbase short of SE bludgeoning it to death with the nerf bat.

[Swords]

Speaking purely outside of Abyssea, this is true to an extent cid, unlike back then WHM has access to most of RDM's means of MP longevity. The fact that all jobs do now means they no longer have to heavily rely on RDM to support them like in the olden days. However there is a degree where the ToAU days could happen again when you consider the following

-HP pools are not 2-4k outside of Abyssea giving Cure IV/V greater impact
-RDM is still the king of mp longevity
-Buffs last longer giving greater mp returns and more casting leeway
-More available fast cast and cure potency gear

RDM might NOT be the best of the best at curing, but as long as the payload is manageable where one person can take sole responsibilities for the mage duties most wont think twice about giving up a second mage for another melee even if it's less than optimal or detrimental to performance. And sad as it is to say, most people have not grown out of the bird camp mindset even with the introduction of Abyssea, it just pushed other jobs into the bandwagon positions with triggers and high DPS/Nuke/Cure numbers.

[Hyrist]

Again, Cid, you speak of HNM endgame a if it is the entirety of FFXI. You really should be on my ignore list by now but somehow I seem to have masochistic tenancies to listen to you.

Red Mage does NOT need burst healing to be considered a "Viable Healer", and if you need a burst healer, you need someone besides Red Mage to do it.

As far as general healing purposes, situations in which your players' HP don't go from full to near empty from 1 move. RDM just needs a more potent healing over time to offset Cure IV spam. My take is that Regen 4 and better damage prevention spells is suited better for this instance.

You really need to get your head out of the boxed-in mentality you've sunk yourself into. Red Mage should be more about damage prevention than HP restoration. Cure V is not the answer to RDM's woes in being a support, and it most certainly does not need to be another 'main' healer.

And completely ignoring the White Mage argument; there are 4 other jobs in the game with Cure V capacity or higher, on top of EVERY job capable of at the very least subbing cure 4. You don't need more, nor does RDM need Cure V to get by. That's a bad cop-out to fix what the job REALLY needs, which is some TP attack mitigation.

[Neisan_Quetz]

What 4 other jobs? I count 1, and it's called Whm. Dnc is a 23(?) second timer, Blu is Cure 4.5/aga 4.5 with no access to as much cure potency/fast cast/recast, Sch is 4.5 while blowing strategems slowing down their healing capability.

As long as SE refuses on the basis 'it would make the game too easy' it is the easiest solution over... absolutely nothing they've implemented so far.

[Hyrist]

Clarification, four other jobs aside from Red Mage and Scholar.

WHM Cure V, Cure VI

Soulsoother (Puppetmaster): Cure V, Cure VI

Blue Mage: Plenilune Embrace (Belittle if it you want it is still burst healing category, and cry more on the Cure potency, you gain an Atk/Matk bonus from the spell. What are you doing with that Add-on gear anyways?)

Dancer: Curing Waltz V (Learn when to use it properly and you won't have a problem with the timer.)

Any one of the Hybrids + a RDM or a SCH can manage the curing load of all but the toughest category of mobs without any need of Cure V. Just because these are not your spam-happy classes does not mean the combinations are not viable. Even the non WHM jobs can handle specific curing loads for NMs and events on their own of the circumstances are right for it.

If you need spammed burst high damage curing, then of course you would need the curing specialist (Read:WHM) or you would need better damage mitigation.

This idea of approaching an event with brain-dead melees with paper thin defenses (Read, little to no PDT/MDT gear), and complaining that your cure power isn't high enough to make up for bad defense set ups and tactics isn't intelligent game development or even game-play.

For Red Mage, development should take the route of providing better damage mitigation, not taking on some arbitrary spell that pulls RDM further away from being the enfeebler/enhancer everyone's crying for them to be.

I've yet to hear a valid argument for more burst curing jobs in general play in the game that doesn't amount to lazy invite habits and the cure version of BNS. Seriously, why would you want Cure V over spells that would PREVENT more damage? Same goal met, different method, and more usefulness in endgame events in which you're going to end up with a WHM + RDM anyways, and this way you're wasting less HP cured than if you both wound up hitting Cure V and over-topping the player.

Because at this point, you might as well call it as a decision between those two solutions because the likely won't develop former due to balance issues if you give RDM the latter.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You can throw PUP out the window because its AI is retarded. Once again, a healing spell on a 23 second timer and requiring TP and locking them out of using any other support ability related to healing does not a healer make. If Cure V was on a 23 secone timer and you couldn't use Erase/na's in the meantime, do you really think anyone would bring a whm for anything?

My add-on gear is locked into ws/cure potency hat for rdm, dw/acc body for melee, and soon to be cure pot/PDT legs for rdm and whm (whm only benefits from the PDT). And no, I do not care that much about BLU to make add-on augments for it. My main job is still Rdm.

[Byrth]

Until RDM gets a useful buff, there's no reason to use it over WHM simply because WHM can do the same job and neither job has MP issues these days if geared properly. RDM brings Dia III to the table (-5% DEF over Dia II), but it has to sub Scholar or White Mage for status removal. My poorly geared White Mage mule subs Thief in Dynamis and keeps me alive through 5-mob Aeolian Edge spamming pulls without downtime.

Temper could have been that buff, if it was 3~4 times as potent and party-target. It isn't, so it's not.


I've turned the problem with supporting role RDM into this handy decision tree:
1) How much Refresh do you need for what you're doing? (2 - A lot!, 4 - Not Much)
2) How hard does what you're fighting hit? (3 - Really Hard!, X - Why do you need a lot of Refresh then?)
3) End: Okay, go WHM/RDM
4) Is what you're doing affected by Treasure Hunter? (5 - Yes, 8 - Not rly)
5) Are there any status debuffs? (6 - Yes, 7 - No)
6) End. Go WHM/THF
7) End. Go RDM, WHM, or SCH/THF
8) End. Go any job with Cure IV

So if you were going to gear one job with Cure IV for the purpose of filling a supporting role, White Mage should be that job.

[Shiyo]

I agree, we don't need cure5, we should heal as well as a brd/whm, it only makes sense.

We also shouldn't balance around the most challenging, fun, rewarding content in the game. We should be balancing jobs around la theine worm pts, not voidwatch!

40 HP regen ticks is also going to outheal those 1k+ gas/t4's/tp moves with capped PDT/MDT sets!

[cidbahamut]

Again, Cid, you speak of HNM endgame a if it is the entirety of FFXI. You really should be on my ignore list by now but somehow I seem to have masochistic tenancies to listen to you.
It's because I bring up legitimate points, even if they make you uncomfortable.

What you're basically arguing for Hyrist is that our healing capacity should be limited to being useful on stuff that any evasion heavy class could solo with relative ease and no outside assistance. That's an extremely limited scope of usefulness.

[Shiyo]

That's exactly how RDM and SCH healing works, we can mainheal stuff that.....evasion jobs can pretty much solo or can solo. Yay?

[Hyrist]

You can throw PUP out the window because its AI is retarded. Once again, a healing spell on a 23 second timer and requiring TP and locking them out of using any other support ability related to healing does not a healer make. If Cure V was on a 23 secone timer and you couldn't use Erase/na's in the meantime, do you really think anyone would bring a whm for anything?

*headdesk*

You're really not following.

You bring the listed jobs above for your acclaimed 'Cure V'.

23 second Cure V is nothing in these situations because you're divying up the cure load. In this case your DNC dose't need to have erase or need to care about anything else but to spot heavy damage and cure it. Satus removes are coverd by your present SCH or RDM and there's absolutely no need for Cure V on behalf of either of those jobs in the presence of a hybrid.

Atomoton AI is easy to understand. Status Removals first, then it cures itself/master (whoever has highest enmity), Then whoever has the highest enmity in the party in that order. Once you understand the rules it's easy to make it a potent cure presence.

It's that players are lazy and don't want to work beyond their zerg mentalities to figure these things out, or to actually make them work as they were designed.

And you've still not addressed the core argument here: Why are you asking for cure V when our damage mitigation is a more important (and more core) part of our class?

In the end all I'm hearing is "Whaaa we're not popular anymore!" and wanting Cure V so they can bump WHM back off the invite list for anything that's not HNMs, which also bumps off Hybrids off general party slots for more 'Pure DDs'.


What you're basically arguing for Hyrist is that our healing capacity should be limited to being useful on stuff that any evasion heavy class could solo with relative ease and no outside assistance. That's an extremely limited scope of usefulness

You've got the degree of limit wrong, but yes, Red Mages and Scholars curing capacity should be limited. I'd go so far as to say curing capacity in the game itself should be more limited than what it is, WHM included, but that ship has sailed. There doesn't need to be more than one healer class that is frankly OP in the healing department. Healing 'Capasity' can be filled by pairing a light healer with a job like Dancer, Puppetmater, Blue Mage, etc to split out the curing load for everything NOT required of a WHM to manage (which is basically HNM endgame.) That way, you MUST choose between a wider birth of combinations, rather than RDM, SCH, WHM. Because, flatly, not everyone is going to want to play a WHM, and, like any other prima job, it's not always available.

And a better choice than simply giving RDM more cure, is to give them MORE POTENT DEBUFFS. You could achieve the same results you desire through that route instead of pouting about Cure V, AND be more useful for high NM endgame in the same motion.

At the bare minimum, that route should be attempted first in the test server before SE caves and gives RDM and SCH a potentially very toxic spell.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The /headdesk is thinking the auto or Dnc are viable at using their cure V variants outside of... pretty much never for dnc, and if PUP AI was so 'easy to control' Pups wouldn't be clamoring for a fix to the automaton's behaviour. You're ignoring the fact for 23 seconds the DNC is completely incapable of supporting the party in -any- way whatsoever from using Waltz V. If your support is only good for casting one spell every 23 seconds then your support healing is pretty lol. I'm also confident the auto suffers from a similar problem to summoner elementals.

Wait are you suggesting a pt of Dnc + Whm + Rdm or Sch really? With Dnc using Waltz 5 once every 23 second to 'support' the party? Am I reading this right?

[SpankWustler]

It's not that players don't want to make things work, and it's not that players don't try to make these things work; it's that some things do not work. Plenty of people have tried to wring blood out of these stones, only to give up.

Curing Waltz V goes above and beyond a twenty-three second recast. It disables any and all Waltzes for twenty-three seconds. Congratulations, the guy with whom you're divvying up healing duties is now just another melee in range of various Area of Effect stuff for the next twenty-three seconds. Many a sad soul in many a sad subligar has used this ability once only to go back to "Curing Waltz III 4EVAR" because of this.

How effective a Soulsoother can be at healing depends more on the monster in question than the group in question. Also, a healer needs to be 100% reliable more than anyone in any role, and this isn't something a puppet can provide without staggering amounts of effort against even the easiest of content.

It's true that Blue Mage has some awesome spells to restore HP. I really like Blue Mage's unique take on healing with stuff like Peeonallofthem Embrace and (as of next week) White Wind. I think Blue Mage is a really good example of where not-White Mage jobs with healing capacity should stand, while Dancer and Puppetmaster are definitely not.

[Anucris]

would have been nice if it was pt member castable....
even so. its not a bad spell... and yes rdm is a weak melee
will this fix rdm weak melee? not at all... there is the problem
stack this with giving rdm an A sword skill (at least A- like blu), what seperates a job like pld from rdm should be A+ to A- not ~30 skill points :( (even more when u consider pld and blu get sword boosts from gear). our gear is highly favored to mage as well. i dunno bout it yet. we'll see i guess

[Scuro]

would have been nice if it was pt member castable....
even so. its not a bad spell... and yes rdm is a weak melee
will this fix rdm weak melee? not at all... there is the problem
stack this with giving rdm an A sword skill (at least A- like blu), what seperates a job like pld from rdm should be A+ to A- not ~30 skill points :( (even more when u consider pld and blu get sword boosts from gear). our gear is highly favored to mage as well. i dunno bout it yet. we'll see i guess

No, because RDM is a Buffer/Healer/Nuker class, with the CAPABILITY to solo DD and should not rival BLU, or else it would make the class irrelevant and a waste of designer time. This is why RDM does not get our DD WSs natively and why they are given a sword skill too low to rival our own. They also receive no native DD traits, therefore, it is not a DD class of any sort. The point of being a DD is that you are given traits or the capability to receive traits that enhance your DD capability. As most RDMs in this thread know, I'm the one that comes in when the post with a crown on it get s posted in. Hi, I'm Scuro, and I'll be putting out this fire today. BTW Shiyo a pleasure as always to see you fighting the good fight haha.

P.S
In defense of PUP's as a PUP enthusiast myself, there is nothing wrong with the AI when it comes to curing, just PUPs bitch when they have to work hard to actually be fantastic at the job as it is capable of. While PUP isn't the best main party curer, god damn can it cure people in a pinch (my cousin (PUP) kept me (BLU) healed against a pugil in golden salvage at 75 with his automaton as we duo'd it, and killed it). Of course it can't save someone that is taking damage like a ugly red headed step child. In short, PUPs want the ability to not be good at their job, and still be acknowledged as skilled at it.

[Kitkat]

du-du-du-duh~ Everyone fear, Scuro is here! Misconceptions and skewed view of a job he has at lvl 47 is his specialty, cause he obviously knows how to play it better than a lvl 95 career rdm!

Must we go over this again, you're labeling a class based off the gear available to it. Same thing can be said about blu due to the gear they have available including the buffs and nukes which also has gear tailored to this form of play in the form of AF3. Heck, in some situations a blu nuke is far superior to that of a rdm nuke, we also have cures equal to Cure V and Curaga IV~V, the only draw back being the hate generated...oh wait...rdm has that same problem. Blu has buffs that can in some cases only be transferred over to others by use of a JA....oh wait, rdm has that same problem. About the only thing that seperates blu from rdm difinitively is the Physical damage spells, higher sword skill, and access to certain ws natively. Then again the WS difference becomes negligible if both have Almace. Gear has been added that brings rdm haste and WS sets up some this time also, leaving the only gap primarily present is the Attack and ~+10-20 dex difference depending on the layout of the blu's spell set. So the comparison isn't so much Apples to oranges, as it is Lemon to Lime.

Then you consider the fact Rdm has access to gear that can also increase Crit Dmg (Onerios Knife), which if I recall was found to be 5~10% increase, new da% on a slot they can afford to leave in place over other options (neck slot). New swords? Rdm are on those too. There is a variety of gear set combinations becoming available to rdm as of late that also increases the main attribute for CDC. So, unless you are willing to put the time and effort into leveling rdm, getting a gear set and ws set situated as well as use tools available to rdm in spell form to further enhance melee damage on rdm....you really have no right to come into the forums, crown or not, and state what a rdm can and cannot do. You have no first hand experience, you're wholly biased in opinion, and the roles you state rdm fits perfectly you fail to see that blu fits them also. Do everyone a favor and come back when you actually can apply a firmly weighted and unbiased knowledge to a discussion.

Also, blu gets -nothing- natively in the form of passive traits. All traits are subject to Subjob, merits, or the combination of spells, some of which are absolutely useless in practice and require sacrificing something else in order to gain (wow, that sounds similar to what rdm has to do to get passive traits they don't have natively, doesn't it?). All of the traits blu is capable of attaining is "gimped" compared to the real passive traits. SE even stated that, despite general acceptance, the Double attack trait blu is able to create is 7% compared to War's 10% native passive trait.

[cidbahamut]

Misconceptions and skewed view of a job he has at lvl 47 is his specialty, cause he obviously knows how to play it better than a lvl 95 career rdm!


It wouldn't be terribly hard, given some of the career Red Mages I've known in-game. So please, don't use this line of reasoning.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It wouldn't be terribly hard, given some of the career Red Mages I've known in-game. So please, don't use this line of reasoning.

Doesn't take away from the posts multiple points though.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Enmity is technically less of a problem due to Tranquil Heart + I know Rdm can now cap cure potency and have ~-50 enmity in gear as well.

[Kitkat]

Enmity is technically less of a problem due to Tranquil Heart + I know Rdm can now cap cure potency and have ~-50 enmity in gear as well.

The point isn't that rdm has lower enmity, blu/rdm gets the same options and can get just as much -enmity in gear. The point was, that either way the job will gain more enmity from cure bombing unless someone is shedding hate of them (such as a thf using accomplice/collaborator) than that of a whm dropping V/VI which has less enmity than Cure, Plenilune, or White Wind. Just because the job can fit the role, doesn't mean it was ment to was the point I was trying to make.


It wouldn't be terribly hard, given some of the career Red Mages I've known in-game. So please, don't use this line of reasoning.

Scuro is trying to state rdm is a cookie cutter job that must conform or the person playing it is gimp/wrong. The problem being that rdm has no specific role/necessity because the role they fill changes based on the subjob used and the situation. Just like blu is able to adapt to various situations, so is rdm capable of doing so. Rdm/blm is good for crowd control, Rdm/whm is a good back up healer much like Rdm/sch is also but goes further by having the option to turn buffs into AOE form. Blu/whm, blu/rdm, and blu/sch can all fit the backup healer/buffer role also, they also have spells for crowd control and nuking with gear to back up this role (heck my blu gets +37mab from gear easily with ability to go up to 45 not to mention access to +mnd/int/mp/hmp gear). Blue magic skill and enfeebling is both A+ to Blu or Rdm respectively with access to macc/skill gear to further increase duration/land rate of enfeeble based magics both have access to. By 99, any /rdm or /whm will have access to haste meaning the few spells rdm has the option to cast on others for buff purpose is null/void as an argumentative point that rdm is "king of enhancing" which Scuro loves to toss around at times.

With this on the table it becomes almost condescending to state that a job with the ability to melee should never do so regardless of gear or situation unless solo. Between the gear, spell buffs, subjob options, and situations we see in today's "endgame" scene or daily activity....there honestly isn't a whole lot keeping rdm as a end-all-be-all back line job anymore. This means the view of how jobs react to given situations can and should vary depending on the players ability to perform the different roles. Just like my rdm has several different sets of gear so too does my blu, because I never know when I may need to take a back seat and fill the back-up role of a nuker or healer. The end point is to at least be prepared for it. FFXI isn't Stick-in-the-mud 2005 anymore, it's 2011 and rdm has a good deal of props and tricks up their sleeves to be more than what they have been since the old days of "do it this way or gtfo." The key is the situation you're in.

[Swords]

Doesn't take away from the posts multiple points though.

That and like I pointed out in an older post, jobs are only complex as you make them out to be. Any RDM who has pride in their efforts know damn well it can be the hardest job to maintain at an efficient level because of it's capacity to do so much. RDM however does needs time to cast their very extensive list of spells to become efficient and worthwhile which works well in long fights, BLU's strength lies in zerg tactics (magic or melee) dealing out massive damage as quickly as possible. Conversely, BLU's lack mp efficiency and tends to run out quickly (and die quickly from hate spikes) making it difficult in long fights, RDM on the other hand have slow nukes with spike damage a good league behind dedicated nukers and with monsters dieing within 30 seconds more than half our spells become pointless to cast which reduces our optimalness significantly in zerg situations.

If anything RDM need's some form of significant "spike" damage/cure for this constant zerg fest that's overtaken the game. SE has pretty much said no for Cure V and most would probably believe Teir V nukes are out of the question, that pretty much limits much of our potential spike growth in the melee section, pending we don't get some ridiculously high amounts of MAB in the near future.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The point isn't that rdm has lower enmity, blu/rdm gets the same options and can get just as much -enmity in gear. The point was, that either way the job will gain more enmity from cure bombing unless someone is shedding hate of them (such as a thf using accomplice/collaborator) than that of a whm dropping V/VI which has less enmity than Cure, Plenilune, or White Wind. Just because the job can fit the role, doesn't mean it was ment to was the point I was trying to make.

Not sure what you're trying to say here then, since that applies to several jobs in FF.

Blu nukes are typically cheaper but they don't benefit from affinity staves, and bar regurgitation and few others many have long recasts/prohibitive casting distances.

Rdm never had a lot of spells to cast on others to begin with... I don't see how sub jobs getting haste changes this.

Mostly agree with the final paragraph but honestly, I found this entire update, fairly lackluster. Hopefully SE will fix their issues with adjustments they intended to implement and set up a timetable for when we ca nexpect them.

[Kitkat]

Not sure what you're trying to say here then, since that applies to several jobs in FF.

Once again you seemed to have only looked at the over all enmity downfall of what was said. The goal was to show that because the job can fit a back-up role of healer, it doesn't mean that is the primary function of the job and should not be a point to satisfy a "primary role/position" of a job. I placed the application of blu being able to fill this role to show to someone who has never played rdm (scuro) that the same pitfalls a blu run into with this, a rdm runs into. Neither is made to be Cure-bombers, but both can fill a backup healer role if the situation calls for it. Situational role positioning of the job, not primary focal point of the job.



Blu nukes are typically cheaper but they don't benefit from affinity staves, and bar regurgitation and few others many have long recasts/prohibitive casting distances.

While this is true in some aspects it is also false in others. While blu does not have affinity staves via ToM, they still have HQ staves to fall back on as well as various other spells to enhance damage via buffs. The point this was to show that the option to use Nukes is there for blu just like rdm, to show Scuro that jobs have the ability to be flexible which he tends to overlook.



Rdm never had a lot of spells to cast on others to begin with... I don't see how sub jobs getting haste changes this.


This was said mainly to point out the false assumption that Rdm is a pt enhancer class. It never was a pt enhancer class and using the crutches of Haste/refresh to say it is one has been one of Scuro's tactics/arguments. Thus showing how multiple classes using either sub at 99 having access to a 'cycle-spell' would fit this assumed role just as easily.

I'm attempting to squash his biased logic with situational proxy logic to show that each position he states a rdm should fill, is not necessarily the position it is meant to fill because the job was not built to fit any of these roles without appropriate subs to accommodate the role. Even then, the subjob only slightly enhances this role because the jobs made to fill it in a primary sense will always do it better...because they were built to do so. Rdm was built into a Jack-of-trades job; flexible to fill various back up roles, but master to no role specifically. The way rdm was built is a combination of Whm, Blm, and Melee, so why shouldn't it be able to fit a back-up DD role if the situation allows for it?

[Crimson_Slasher]

Gear dictates what jobs do?! Oh that explains this.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/231396

Makes perfect sense now. I see just how things work, thanks for enlightening me Scuro.

[cidbahamut]

Needs more Rune Chopper Scholars.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Once again you seemed to have only looked at the over all enmity downfall of what was said. The goal was to show that because the job can fit a back-up role of healer, it doesn't mean that is the primary function of the job and should not be a point to satisfy a "primary role/position" of a job. I placed the application of blu being able to fill this role to show to someone who has never played rdm (scuro) that the same pitfalls a blu run into with this, a rdm runs into. Neither is made to be Cure-bombers, but both can fill a backup healer role if the situation calls for it. Situational role positioning of the job, not primary focal point of the job.



While this is true in some aspects it is also false in others. While blu does not have affinity staves via ToM, they still have HQ staves to fall back on as well as various other spells to enhance damage via buffs. The point this was to show that the option to use Nukes is there for blu just like rdm, to show Scuro that jobs have the ability to be flexible which he tends to overlook.



This was said mainly to point out the false assumption that Rdm is a pt enhancer class. It never was a pt enhancer class and using the crutches of Haste/refresh to say it is one has been one of Scuro's tactics/arguments. Thus showing how multiple classes using either sub at 99 having access to a 'cycle-spell' would fit this assumed role just as easily.

I'm attempting to squash his biased logic with situational proxy logic to show that each position he states a rdm should fill, is not necessarily the position it is meant to fill because the job was not built to fit any of these roles without appropriate subs to accommodate the role. Even then, the subjob only slightly enhances this role because the jobs made to fill it in a primary sense will always do it better...because they were built to do so. Rdm was built into a Jack-of-trades job; flexible to fill various back up roles, but master to no role specifically. The way rdm was built is a combination of Whm, Blm, and Melee, so why shouldn't it be able to fit a back-up DD role if the situation allows for it?

Just arguing details at this point then, I have no real issue with this outlook. My major gripe at this point is SE hasn't delivering on promised adjustments and the only notable thing given ignoring gear upgrades was... Temper, which I doubt anyone would have a problem if it it wasn't the only notable thing this update short of spells we knew we would be getting due to tier progression, or should have gotten several levels ago.

[Hyrist]

I don't think we should ignore gear upgrades though, as RDM is such a gear dependent job that when it does give something that raises the bar on what we got, it literally is an update-level improvement.

Not to mention, Spontaneity should be given a honoerable mention even if the timer is a long one. The ability to bistow an instance of Quick Cast on anyone could potentially be pretty powerful. Especially if it were used to say, help a struggling tank get up shadows instantly, and still have the recast to do it again right after. Or giving that BLM the ability to cast Comet two times in quick succession. Or, say sometime in the middle of a wipe the WHM who's next on the hate list said "Oh crap, reraise fell."

I hate the timer on it, we're likely going to see a merit category for it too, which is annoying. But Temper isn't the grand sum of what RDM got this update. Gain STR, gear, and Spontaneity were received too.

As far as the Manifesto... More and more I'm thinking that was a mistranslation as far as the buffing aspects of the job.

Though please, more debuffs next patch, something that ONLY RDM can have.

[Neisan_Quetz]

"Could potentially" and "is in practice" aren't the same thing however. Even without 10 minute timer restriction (pretty terrible imo) giving it to others can easily be wasted unless you can predict exactly what the person is going to cast with it, at the moment you give it to them. Sure, I have a good idea of what they should do with it, but I can never confidently say that is what they are going to do after getting it, especially if they already have something else in mind.

[Hyrist]

I take it you don't maintain communication with your allies then?

That explains a lot, actually.

I'm on Skype with my allies most the time, so it's simple to say things like. "Convert Coming up." or "Skillchain up." In short order and pull things off easily. It'd be nothing to say. "Spare me a Quick Cast for a double-comet?" And have it done. Or to plan other uses for it.

It's also how I coordinate healing loads with my Dancer, where we determine what damage requires her to only use a Waltz III to pair off with my Cure IV, or when She can Spare the time on a Waltz V. Or how gradual damage can be easily countered off with AoE Stoneskin/Regen, where heavier ones can add on Drain Samba.

Having access to quick communication really does bypass most of those concerns.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Yes I don't use Skype and have no interest in it.

[Hyrist]

Usssse ieeeeeeet.

Even just among the people in your party it makes things so much smoother, being able to talk with them. It's actually even better in getting to know the individual behind the game, their mood, etc. So much more is communicated with voice and a great deal quicker than typing out ever could.

And it really does streamline teamwork, which flatly bypasses a lot of timing/trust issues.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I used to use it but it made no real difference for me, so I don't anymore, that's really it (actually, it doesn't help the two people who got me using it quit the game). For the current lowman group I run with I know two irl and typically don't have issues with dealing with sitatuons without it. The only time I've had an issue is when I've said afk and someone didn't catch it for some reason, or they must have seriously thought I was going to fight mobs while weakened.

[Shiyo]

Voice chat makes me slower and distracts me.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Personal ability varies, some people really CANT walk and chew gum. Im an xbox360 player for other games than ffxi, so for me, mic communication is very fluid for me as is typing out my thoughts, but i agree that for me i can talk much clearer than i can type under heavy dangerous nm work loads.

[Scuro]

That and like I pointed out in an older post, jobs are only complex as you make them out to be. Any RDM who has pride in their efforts know damn well it can be the hardest job to maintain at an efficient level because of it's capacity to do so much. RDM however does needs time to cast their very extensive list of spells to become efficient and worthwhile which works well in long fights, BLU's strength lies in zerg tactics (magic or melee) dealing out massive damage as quickly as possible. Conversely, BLU's lack mp efficiency and tends to run out quickly (and die quickly from hate spikes) making it difficult in long fights, RDM on the other hand have slow nukes with spike damage a good league behind dedicated nukers and with monsters dieing within 30 seconds more than half our spells become pointless to cast which reduces our optimalness significantly in zerg situations.


Your playing it wrong, depending on what a BLU is doing, we do not lack MP efficiency, hence Battery Charge, and depending on where, atmas. I never run out of MP, and only those that are not paying attention or do not realize hate generation pull hate and die. Its called learn to Occultation/Shadow, if you are dying either your party sucks, or you suck. Especially since I have an Epona's Ring and a Atheling mantle for my TP set up, stop wasting so much MP, and let yourself hit the mob. Build that TP for stronger hits with C.A.


Gear dictates what jobs do?! Oh that explains this.

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/231396

Makes perfect sense now. I see just how things work, thanks for enlightening me Scuro.


No, because RDM is a Buffer/Healer/Nuker class, with the CAPABILITY to solo DD and should not rival BLU, or else it would make the class irrelevant and a waste of designer time. This is why RDM does not get our DD WSs natively and why they are given a sword skill too low to rival our own. They also receive no native DD traits, therefore, it is not a DD class of any sort. The point of being a DD is that you are given traits or the capability to receive traits that enhance your DD capability. As most RDMs in this thread know, I'm the one that comes in when the post with a crown on it get s posted in. Hi, I'm Scuro, and I'll be putting out this fire today. BTW Shiyo a pleasure as always to see you fighting the good fight haha.


You must sink a lot, because your dense, I said that Job Traits of a DD form dictate the job, last I checked, BRD has none. While it is capable for great DD gear (ironically enough) it still has no Job traits, next time when you post, do read. Notice how I said nothing about having gear with DD stats.

What the job needs is new enfeebs and new buffs, ones that will set it apart from other opposing jobs. Now that it has lost a great enfeeble spell to WHM, its going to need to make up some of that lost ground. I still have no idea why they let WHM have that. That is what is needed from the class.

P.S
Skype is awesome, it enhances group coordination, and speeds communication between players allowing you to talk and keep doing what you are doing, rather then typing and reducing reaction time.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Brd may lack the job traits, but lets be real here, in a lot of cases those same job traits can be earned from sub-job, and brd can also substantially buff themselves to make up those magical missing traits. For someone who slings the "you must be dense" comment, you sure are narrowminded if you assume that jobs only have one or two purposes or abilities, and it is these same reasons drk K-club zergs, rdm chainspell stuns, and other well known tactics were developed, and saying that gear has no effect on something like that is completely wrong. Granted i did missread your statement, but the same jobtraits you cling to in many cases do very little baring some exceptions. But to humor you lets look at these traits.

Fencer, brd gets it, but im sure that is not counted as one of your DD traits, dispite it raising crit rate while single wielding, so yank that sword (which should be offhanded, but AH is a bit picky about slot placement) off and keep the rest of the gear or stack their equally impressive dex gear for evisceration.

Critical Defense Bonus. Sure its not a damage dealing trait, but it is a frontline trait. Once again, brd gets it.

Resist silence. Granted not a melee trait, but allows them to buff themselves.

Now lets look at some of the other argueably "DD" jobs.

BST.
-Killer traits
-Widescan
-Fencer
-Stout servant
-Resist Slow

Im sure those killer traits make it more DD related than brd. Im sure it has nothing to do with its gear and weapon choices. Course thats assuming bst is only designed to melee itself, not wear pet related gear at times to enhance their pet.

Lets escalate this some though and look at a much more recognized DD job.

Warrior
-Defense bonus 2 (22 DEF)
-Double attack
-Attack bonus 1 (10 ATT)
-Resist Virus
-Fencer
-Critical attack bonus
-Shield mastery
-Shield Defense Bonus

No argueing that war is more skilled, or a better damage dealer, but those traits you cling to, brd can sub war to get half of them that wont impact its main job. Including its double attack.

As for its attack bonus or defense bonus, or accuracy.
-Valor Minuet V grants upwards of 72 attack.
-Knight's MinneV grants up to 60 defense.
-Blade Madrigal gives 30 accuracy.

SO while lacking the native traits, it can get superior to the very traits you specify through sub and 2-3 buffs, and can gear like a DD, is it a DD? Nope, can it be one? Sure. Could the same to an even greater extent be given to any job at any time via JA, JT, MA, or other source causing the jobs to deal more than any other DD? Its unlikely, but its not impossible in a virtual fictional world. Get off your high horse and stop weighing in on things that extend outside your narrow field of perception.

[Kitkat]

If someone is dense cause of their reasoning that a job without native traits can DD, then you must be just as dense. Blu passive traits are -not- native and are generally weaker than what other jobs with the native traits get. This includes what any Subjob will give you in the form of these very same traits. Not to mention most of them are only Tier I (or in the case of DA -I) with only a few reaching Tier II (DW, MP bonus, HP bonus) and only one going higher (Clear mind), but still unable to reach the upper-most tier. If Crimson is dense, you must be two times as dense and sinking into the abyss faster. Either that or you don't even know a thing about the job that is your main and just need something to cry/poke/troll about.

The ability to be a DD, or even perform DD as a back-up comes from the gear available to the job along with buffs from Subjob, Primary job, and other sources including spell combinations on blu creating passive traits. I'll say it one more time: Blu does not get any passive traits natively and they are generally weaker than what as Subjob will give them. Thus your argument from this point of view is hurting you more than it is helping you, Scuro.

To clarify - Native implies that through no actions other than the representative level of the job the trait will appear. It can not be removed in any way, shape, or form aside from dropping below the prescribed level at which it is gained. Thus blu does not get any passive trait natively since they all come from Subjob, Spell combination, and merit options.

This means that any job that is capable of using a subjob to gain said traits, have access to DD gear, food, and other source enhancements (Spells, rolls, songs, atma) is capable of DD in a back-up role. Try reading yourself instead of contradicting yourself and using blind logic.

[Scuro]

Brd may lack the job traits, but lets be real here, in a lot of cases those same job traits can be earned from sub-job, and brd can also substantially buff themselves to make up those magical missing traits. For someone who slings the "you must be dense" comment, you sure are narrowminded if you assume that jobs only have one or two purposes or abilities, and it is these same reasons drk K-club zergs, rdm chainspell stuns, and other well known tactics were developed, and saying that gear has no effect on something like that is completely wrong. Granted i did missread your statement, but the same jobtraits you cling to in many cases do very little baring some exceptions. But to humor you lets look at these traits.

Fencer, brd gets it, but im sure that is not counted as one of your DD traits, dispite it raising crit rate while single wielding, so yank that sword (which should be offhanded, but AH is a bit picky about slot placement) off and keep the rest of the gear or stack their equally impressive dex gear for evisceration.

Critical Defense Bonus. Sure its not a damage dealing trait, but it is a frontline trait. Once again, brd gets it.

Resist silence. Granted not a melee trait, but allows them to buff themselves.



Oh yes and because I'm sure DRK is totally rocking the sh*t out of Tactical parry right? And I'm sure you RDM's love shield mastry right? Although the majority of RDMs that are wanting to DD 85% of the time prefer dual wield. And hot damn, WHM has some sexy shield defense, must mean they are a front line job too! Wow I must of gotten my FFXI knowledge out of a cracker jack box cuz I sure feel stupid..... No, not at all, ever. Dude seriously, thats cool and all, but again, just because they have those traits, doesn't mean its supposed to actually be used religiously, I mean honestly... how many DRKs do you see parry? And also your statement that it can sub and be a DD and receive traits.... No, they are weaker because they are subbed, and a WHM/WAR apparently can DD, or a SMN/DRK can melee it up, with that kind of twisted logic there would be just death. Just because you can sub DD traits, doesn't make you a DD, or else every job could be a DD, and while I'm sure some of them can manage or give it a good try for some situations, jobs have their socket, and it is up to the player to apply them to the right one rather then trying to put a square peg in a circle slot with the logic that ramming it hard enough will eventually make it fit.

If someone is dense cause of their reasoning that a job without native traits can DD, then you must be just as dense. Blu passive traits are -not- native and are generally weaker than what other jobs with the native traits get. This includes what any Subjob will give you in the form of these very same traits. Not to mention most of them are only Tier I (or in the case of DA -I) with only a few reaching Tier II (DW, MP bonus, HP bonus) and only one going higher (Clear mind), but still unable to reach the upper-most tier. If Crimson is dense, you must be two times as dense and sinking into the abyss faster. Either that or you don't even know a thing about the job that is your main and just need something to cry/poke/troll about.

The ability to be a DD, or even perform DD as a back-up comes from the gear available to the job along with buffs from Subjob, Primary job, and other sources including spell combinations on blu creating passive traits. I'll say it one more time: Blu does not get any passive traits natively and they are generally weaker than what as Subjob will give them. Thus your argument from this point of view is hurting you more than it is helping you, Scuro.

To clarify - Native implies that through no actions other than the representative level of the job the trait will appear. It can not be removed in any way, shape, or form aside from dropping below the prescribed level at which it is gained. Thus blu does not get any passive trait natively since they all come from Subjob, Spell combination, and merit options.

This means that any job that is capable of using a subjob to gain said traits, have access to DD gear, food, and other source enhancements (Spells, rolls, songs, atma) is capable of DD in a back-up role. Try reading yourself instead of contradicting yourself and using blind logic.

Now *cracks knuckles* for hater Numero Dos! You obviously don't read fine print, which is why you think that RDM can actually DD, but its ok, I'll humor you. Yes we do receive Tier 1's, grats, but hell, thats at least tier 1 that doesn't come out of a subjob, and can be applied to subjobs that other jobs don't have the pleasure for. I mean if I really want to get the perks of dual wield, yes I'm obviously going to sub NIN or DNC, but if I want to apply it to other things for niche reasons, I can do that. Also your supposidly witty comment about a statement you don't know anything about, if you actually took the time to fully read it, they actually say about the Double Attack trait that (We didn't change anything), which implies that the calculation that was originally thought for WAR's native Double attack is actually inaccurate. Feel free to read it again, I would dig up the link, but its not really worth my time seeing as how its already been clarified amongst the BLU community.

Also because your argument is just so much fun to shread up, I'm going to play with your idea that "BLU has no native traits because they can be removed!" Ya, its called the system of the class, /slowclap, I'm glad you caught on to it. So what you are trying to say to me, is that a PUP isn't considered a healer when it has the WHM head frame because it can be removed? /applaud you are fantastic! That a SCH doesn't have Nuking or healing spells because it has to be under certain Addenda in order to use? /applaud You are a GENIUS! How could I be so blind!?.... I couldn't even keep a straight face.... I mean seriously, that was the most emphasized sarcasm I could preform and I'm glad you could be apart of this entertainment. Again Kitkat, your logic is a pleasure as always, and I salute you sir /slowclap

[Daniel_Hatcher]

What do you class Temper and Enspells if not to increase melee? What about Composure with increased Enhancement duration and 15 Accuracy?

Are they a DD? Hell no! But you're completely wrong if you think SE don't want RDM to melee in some instances with the gear coming out, the weapons and the Weapon Skill adjustments they clearly do.

You're fear of RDM beating BLU is misplaced.

[saevel]

What do you class Temper and Enspells if not to increase melee? What about Composure with increased Enhancement duration and 15 Accuracy?

Are they a DD? Hell no! But you're completely wrong if you think SE don't want RDM to melee in some instances with the gear coming out, the weapons and the Weapon Skill adjustments they clearly do.

You're fear of RDM beating BLU is misplaced.

The intention of a RDM meleeing was stated at level 16 with the spell "Enthunder". A self cast only spell that deals thunder elemental damage upon each melee strike. SE wasn't thinking of SCH or SMN or anyone else when they designed Enthunder.

Now for "melee" we have,

Enspells
Gain-spells (both melee and mage buffs)
Temper

SE has pretty much made it clear their intentions, the fact that people continue to put on blinders is a testiment to the authenticity of the Cognitive Dissonance theory.

[Kitkat]

What a wonderful troll you are Scuro. You have the tenacity to take anything that has any basis and turn it around using blind logic. It is almost believable.....aside from the fact you are basically just proving a point I made several post ago about how a job fits into various roles depending on situation and subjob. Thank you for walking into the corner as expected by stating the very points that have already been said to you about the job. I knew all I had to do was post about something that is so plainly obvious just to get you to realize how screwed up your own logic is since all you can do is apply it to blu, but not to a job you don't even play because you can only see what you want to about a job you don't even play.

Well, now that you've pretty much contradicted yourself...again, the debate with you is over. Your own arrogance is your downfall when it comes to anything in comparison to blu, yet you can't look at the very same reasons blu would change its spell set, subjob, or gear for to fit another role and apply it to rdm. Then again your rdm is 47, so what real experience with the job can you put behind it? Since all you can do is cry and complain about blu, why don't you stay in the blu forums where you contradict yourself just as much. Yes, you do contradict yourself ~pats your head~ It's ok, arrogance does that.

Edit: By the way, I pulled up the information posted by Camate in the Blu forums stating it was not all encompassing of Double attack trait, just the Blu spell combination that creates the trait as stated here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13940-Test-Server-Feedback-on-BLU-spells?p=185381&viewfull=1#post185381). The misconception of blu DA trait being 10% came from the assumption it was equal to war double attack which has been proven to be 10%.


• Double Attack

Changing the double attack from 10% and upgrading to 5% triple attack is silly.
Is the double attack effect now lowered to 5% due to a bug?
It pains me to tell you this, as I don’t want to be the destroyer of dreams or anything like that, but the double attack trait gained by combination of blue spells isn’t 10% like everyone thinks…it’s actually closer to 7%. (We didn’t change anything FYI)

Edit2:
To further prove that you don't know how to interpret information here is a kparse of rdm/war with no other double attack gear on to show that war DA trait is infact 10%. So yes, only blu da is 7% not all da traits. Also, temper was not, nor could not, be used during this test as my Rdm was 91 during this test.


Melee Data

Player # Melee Attacks # Melee Rounds Attacks/Round # Extra Attacks
Kaliyah 1216 1106 1 110

Player # +1 Rounds # +2 Rounds # +3 Rounds # +4 Rounds # >+4 Rounds
Kaliyah 110 0 0 0 0

Player # MultiAttack Rounds MultiAttack % Kills w/Min Attacks Kills w/<Min Attacks
Kaliyah 110 9.95 % 0 0


Treat As:

Multi-attacks per attack (2x/3x):

Player # Double Attacks DA Rate Perc. DA # Triple Attacks TA Rate Perc. TA
Kaliyah 110 9.95 % 100.00 % 0 0.00 % 0.00 %




How to interpret (since blank space is auto removed):

Player: Kaliyah
Number or attacks per round based on weapon: 1
Attack Rounds: 1106
Actual attacks: 1216
Extra Attacks: 110
Double attack rate: 9.95%

[Economizer]

And hot damn, WHM has some sexy shield defense, must mean they are a front line job too!

Why are you so afraid of people having fun and occasionally getting to smack things?


No, they are weaker because they are subbed, and a WHM/WAR apparently can DD

Most White Mages who take up arms rely on Clubs, and as such usually sub either Ninja or Dancer. Sub warrior is much less common. I won't say it isn't viable, since Staff styles and relying on Fencer are somewhat slightly more possible with Double Attack, but it is slightly less possible then a Red Mage's choices (I'm inclined to believe that /WAR and /DRK are just as valid as /NIN and /DNC with Red Mage, since Red Mage has about equal proficiency with Sword and Dagger - although many Red Mages complain about this, I think it fits Red Mage well in the jack of all trades role).

Again, I wouldn't be afraid of Red Mage melee. Blue Mages probably have the most role choices of any class, so even if Blue Mages were suddenly told to get in the back because people thought it was more efficient, it could fill those roles too.

I don't think anyone wanted to melee on jobs arrogantly viewed as incapable of those things doesn't want any more then more options to play on that particular job, or even just a way to augment their current capabilities. I don't need to cite legendary players who fought things solo while sometimes augmenting their job's capabilities with melee to make this point.

[Scuro]

Kitkat your wrong because it has been stated that WAR's DA is equal, and that the calculation was off, but hey keep spinning around in your circles. Its funny that you make it sound like you are twisting me and such when in truth, you just sound ignorant and I can't help myself but to squash your ethics.

Also Economizer the reason why is because I believe certain jobs were designed for it, and when the jobs were 75, RDM was a beast, and almost a rediculous god job for what it could do. It was able to solo NMs that no other job could, and was a job nobody would want to fight in a PVP because of how dirty it could be. Then came BLU and was always trying to compete with RDM, while it would actually be the DD that RDM could never be due to community aesthetic. RDM was still able to cast a shadow on the skill and purpose that is a BLU. Now RDM has been reduced to lower then competition for a BLU in the DD field, and thats how it should be. As stated by the manifesto, BLU is to the true jack of all trades, and I'll see it through. As some RDMs know, I only post on DD RDM related posts, and I post only if they hit red or get on the front page. Because I don't want SE to waste its time with stupid ideas, and actually focus on what the job does good, namely enfeebling. It would be nice to see them get a big boost in buffing like it has stated, but we'll see how it plays out. Til that happens, I'll be here putting out fires.

The play you are talkinga bout Economy is for fun, and for d*cking around, not for real NMs, and that is the point.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

No one would Melee on a hard mob in the same sense a BLU (Ultimate TP feeder) would get kicked from the party if he tried too.

[Kitkat]

Is that so? Where is your Data? How about a source? Really, if you're going to state something at least have the sense to back it up. All you're doing right now is moving your fingers and producing basically nothing to quash or prove else wise. I produced recorded data as of this morning with no other DA gear on and using the job as Sub to show that Merits were not a factor and a main that does not otherwise get any other traits that would produce extra attacks.

Show you're more than a troll for once, get the data with a sample larger in scale than the one I used. If what you say is true than someone somewhere has produced the data to prove the statement.

[Scuro]

I've already supplied the proof in what the DEV said that they did not change anything when they gave BLU the trait. Therefore its obvious that the calculations are more rounded then they are hardline. Also the conversation around DD things for RDM is over, so well... I have no other reason to post in this, not to mention the dude that made the poll post, is making my job easier so I don't have much to concern myself with.

[Greatguardian]

I've already supplied the proof in what the DEV said that they did not change anything when they gave BLU the trait. Therefore its obvious that the calculations are more rounded then they are hardline. Also the conversation around DD things for RDM is over, so well... I have no other reason to post in this, not to mention the dude that made the poll post, is making my job easier so I don't have much to concern myself with.

Current BG consensus after exhaustive testing is that BLU TA is 5% and DA is 7%.

Camate also very specifically said that the BLU DA rate was 7%, in the post both linked to and quoted by Kit.

Do you even read posts before responding to them?

That's a rhetorical question, by the way.

[Kitkat]

Best part is Camate specifically states it is the spell combination trait, not all DA traits and that the blu trait was never 10% to begin with. I also supplied additional data to show that DA from /war is 10% with a sample exceeding 1000 rounds which is typically accepted as relevant. I can go to 2000, or even 10000, and I can bet right now the data will not change; it will still be within the tolerable error acceptance range of 10%.

Also, this is applicable to the discussion of rdm melee cause you stated that a subjob can't dictate the capability to DD just because it gives the job something it can't get normally. The side track testing was to show that information I brought to the table about blu passive traits being weaker, unable to scale higher, and the few that could cause DD changes in the blu's spell line up since they have limited set points and limited slots. This means they can't get these "key DD traits" without sacrificing something else. This is exactly what a Rdm has to do in order to gain back-up DD capabilities. Without the proper subs, yes rdm melee is somewhat lacking, but rdm can also tank and, long before Blu was a twinkle in SE's eye for FFXI, we were kiting Kirin around for non-zerg LS. Hell I was doing that as /whm and after spell enmity nerf I did it as /war. Avesta solo'd gods without the need for Melee, does that mean SE needs to nerf our magic too? I'm honestly trying to see why you think increasing Enfeebling/mage aspects only, won't make it so that a Rdm will go out and be the new Avesta again and with much greater ease.

Also, your misconception about rdm meleeing things in the past, solo, that other jobs couldn't was due to an issue with Utsusemi, nothing that had to do with Rdm exactly. Know how I know? I was around back then and did the same thing. After they nerfed/fixed utsusemi a lot of those NM's couldn't be solo'd in that manner anymore. I suggest you do some research about that before you bring it up as ammunition for your side of the argument.

[Economizer]

Also, your misconception about rdm meleeing things in the past, solo, that other jobs couldn't was due to an issue with Utsusemi, nothing that had to do with Rdm exactly. Know how I know? I was around back then and did the same thing. After they nerfed/fixed utsusemi a lot of those NM's couldn't be solo'd in that manner anymore. I suggest you do some research about that before you bring it up as ammunition for your side of the argument.

I'm not sure what nerf you are talking about in particular (please clarify), but I was under the impression that for casting Utsusemi, Red Mage is the second best job due to large amounts of Fast Cast. If evading hits didn't matter, Red Mage would probably always win out on /NIN due to a mix of Magic Defense Bonus and Fast Cast.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I think they're talking about the original utsu nerf when it only took one shadow no matter the attack (including meteor from KB).

[Kitkat]

Back during the initial release of Ninja and Utsusemi, shadows would absorb AOE and multi-hit attacks and would only count it as 1 shadow. Goblin rush, 3 strike attack, 1 shadow. It was during CoP that this was changed and multi-hit attacks would take more than one shadow as well as AOE would either remove or take 1-3 shadows based on Parry skill checks. Additionally, some attacks would now ignore utsusemi and deal direct damage without removing or even checking shadows. SE saw this as unbalanced and corrected it since it made Pld tank obsolete, turned nin into a far superior tank, and rdm/nin was capable of soloing ground HNM such as serket with relative ease due the the ability to negate extreme aoe attacks. This was roughly back in 04 or 05.

[Mageoholic]

my level 61 WHM heals better then my 90 RDM. That ain't right.

[Kitkat]

That is mainly cause Rdm is a backup/filler healer not primary. The whm native spell list grants them all the required spells to status cure and restore HP to a player and themselves. Rdm does not get more than Tier II regen and Tier IV cure natively and must sub whm to gain status cures and curaga spells. Rdm was not ment for this as quoted in their original form (this is from the users manual published in 2003):

White mage: Experts in whit magic that specialize in healing and recovery spells. Weak in close combat, and prohibited from using blade weapons.

Red Mages: Capable of using both white and black magic; adept at swordsmanship. However, red mages take far longer to master powerful spells than white or black mages due to their broad range of abilities.

I would certainly say far longer as it took nearly 20 levels to be able to use Tier IV from black mage, 32 before we got Regen II, and almost 40 to learn Riase II. Gotta say though, not seeing the adept at swordmanship part too well. We do get a B rating, same as war, but lack access to certain weaponskills (some of which don't make much of any sense). Out of 95 levels worth of equipment we only have about a handful that really enhances any aspects of rdm's unique melee capabilities (C. Fluerete, E. Sword, Hollow earring with extra dmg/effects under Enspell effect).

In contrast Rdm has gained a very expansive gear choice for mage specific play, but very little in gear choice for melee to give it a unique place within a back-up role. SE has maintained a very strict enforcement on the scaling of enspell/phalanx/Aquaviel/Gain-spells also making it difficult to be better in this area of capabilities of a rdm. Granted more gear has just been added, but will require a good deal of hoop jumping and luck/acceptance for a rdm to aquire this piece over someone else that can wear it also. I wouldn't mind seeing more gear that enhances rdm ability to melee when under the effect of certain spells, but I'm not expecting a totally reworked change. Just a way to balance out the initial vision of rdm; to give it the choice to do more than just stand there all the time.

[cidbahamut]

The 2003 user's manual doesn't count for much. You should feel bad for trying to use it to support your argument.

[Kitkat]

Not supporting the argument so much as showing that rdm was never ment to be a primary role. It only goes to show that either mage or melee preference the job will never fit a primary role because it was not meant to. It was built to be a hybrid job; unable to be a primary mage or primary melee, but capable of filling the role in a back-up sense. Therefor it doesn't hurt what I've already said and only shows why I support some enhancement to melee, but not a complete reform to the ability to melee.

If you want I can even quote POL's (http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/intro/about/job01.html?pageID=about) definition of Rdm: These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword.

[Neisan_Quetz]

It shouldn't take Rdm over 48 levels to get a new healing spell.

[Mageoholic]

I don't give a crap if WHM is supposed to be a healer or not. I should not be able to outheal my 90RDM with my 61 WHM. Ever. At all.

I could go without seeing C5 on RDM, but at least make healing magic actually apply to healing spells. It is stupid that my 61WHM can heal for 200-300 more HP then my 90RDM.

And how you can argue otherwise is beyond me.

[Kitkat]

If your Whm at 61 is curing 200-300 more using the same cure spells it isn't the fault of the magic it is the fault of the user not having cure potency gear. The only way a Whm surpasses a 90 rdm at 61 is via Cure V which you negated as a point stating you can do without it. Even at both being 90 the difference isn't that great between the same tier Cures since healing skill hardly increases amount cured. The greatest difference comes in the terms of Cure potency and the fact that Whm actually has Merits, gear, and passive traits to make cure cast faster and more mp efficiently.

So without counting Cure V or VI, since you yourself negated them already, the overall difference is (I may be forgetting some gear here) is now 2% potency difference assuming 50% potency cap, and roughly 6hp difference worth of skill and possible ~30-40hp via +mnd/vit? I'm sorry I'm failing to see your point here after you negated Cure V as a viable remedy. Additional negation of higher tier Cure spells in exchange for a passive or JA that increases the potency beyond that cap causes further issues than it remedies due to still being stuck with Cure IV and lower due to increasing Enmity generation when curing. This would require a greater -enmity build to counteract the generation which may cause cure pot% gear to be removed to compensate thus nullifying the JA or Passive trait being added in the first place unless SE decides to give us another tier of Tranquil Heart.

Also, not trying to be difficult just looking at "what if" scenarios. You want a remedy to something then think up a plausible solution, complaining about it doesn't really move the situation to a resolution if you aren't offering anything to fix the problem.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Can cap cure potency and have -50 enmity in gear (lose out on mind/healing skill obv) and Rdm has 3 tiers of Tranquil Heart @ 90.

[Khiinroye]

With the nefer body from the update, it's easy for any mage to cap cure potency now.

[Economizer]

White mage: Experts in whit magic that specialize in healing and recovery spells. Weak in close combat, and prohibited from using blade weapons.

Hey! White Mages are far from inept in close combat. Actually, if anything, White Mages are weak in every combat that isn't close.


but at least make healing magic actually apply to healing spells. It is stupid that my 61WHM can heal for 200-300 more HP then my 90RDM.

I don't think you could find a White Mage (okay, any real White Mages that aren't Abyssean burn victims who play the job only to get gear) who would disagree with you that healing magic skill should have a larger impact on cure strength, but the last time it was discussed in the White Mage forums, some people whined about it making White Mage more powerful, despite the fact that it would do the same for anyone else who cures.

A lack of native MP regeneration is White Mage's primary weakness at low levels. When this is eliminated, effectiveness skyrockets. This was the reason why Red Mage could outheal a White Mage at the 75 cap when set as the only healer.

Without Refresh, it is no contest, you will outheal the 61 White Mage. With Refresh, you either have someone Refreshing the White Mage, meaning that a bunch of the healing is partially coming from the Refresh source, or you are in Abyssea. If you are a Red Mage in a party refreshing the 61 White Mage, and you are upset they are out healing you, stop. They won't be out healing you very much longer.

If you are in Abyssea, there isn't much you can do. You are trying to compete with someone who has had their primary weakness (for that level) mitigated. Plus they can now hit 44% cure potency with Atma too, and stack on Afflatus Solace for a 25% boost on top.

Of course, nobody invites a 61 White Mage over a 95 Red Mage to cure except in some experience parties in Abyssea. And even then, it has to do more with the fact that the 61 White Mage will probably stick around longer. Basically, this is a bad hypothetical about competing with someone who has had their weakness nearly eliminated, in a rare situation few people actually deal with.

[Kitkat]

Think the main point was side-stepped to state the obvious. Mageholic was griping about being out cured by a primary healer and at the same time quashed the usual "I want cure V" that some expect that rdm should get but saying instead "I can deal without it." They however didn't offer anything other than this so I offered up a plausible solution while stating some potential pitfalls of a solution.

Didn't state Rdm couldn't get capped potency nor sufficient -enmity, only that increasing a tier of already available cures in some fashion to make up for the less than adequate healing capabilities of the job will have long term detrimental effects AKA, long fights will result in both a tank and the rdm reaching capped hate and each Cure IV will produce decent amounts of VE that can cause the mob being fought to have a ping pong effect. Even in my -enmity build I can only bomb with IV so much before reaching this situation, so increasing it would create more VE/HP restored thus requiring some other way to further negate this while performing this type of role in a primary sense. Hence why I mentioned another tier of tranquil heart, anything to negate the otherwise hard to avoid outcome of dropping IV's over and over again.

Cure IV reaches around the 600 range in capped potency if I recall correctly, while no contest to V's 1k restoration, that isn't exactly bad considering outside of abyssea that is a little less than half a standard melee's HP pool. Inside of abysea however, that isn't much when you take into consideration a standard melee with all abyssite has close to, or over 3k hp.

[Scuro]

/sigh
This is truly frustrating with RDMs, but I've already proven my point, and well, nothing is going to come of DD things anyway so I have no reason to stay here. I'm done now /tap out, see you around if this ever starts picking up again.

[saevel]

Along this line I think SE should fix the healing skill issue. Up the cap on III / IV / V and let healing skill sort it out. RDM shouldn't be getting Cure V while Cure VI is so poor. But I could see SE making Cure III ~ V more potent across the board.

[Economizer]

Along this line I think SE should fix the healing skill issue. Up the cap on III / IV / V and let healing skill sort it out. RDM shouldn't be getting Cure V while Cure VI is so poor. But I could see SE making Cure III ~ V more potent across the board.

Okay, I dug up the White Mage post on Healing Magic (not hard, not many people post there) and found one of the many suggestions I had for it. I was trying to spark conversation for better suggestions, but alas, people whined instead of people brainstorming.



Healing Magic skill should improve cures regardless of what job you have, and lets be honest - while this is a more important issue to White Mages whose only role is to dish out the cures and support - other jobs would probably get more benefit from this then White Mages.

If, for example, you cured +X more points of curing per cure, where,


X = (Healing Magic Skill -300) * (Tier of Cure)

then we would see a much more noticeable increase on lower tier cures then larger tier cures - even if Cure V cured 375 more points per cure, a 225 point boost to Cure III, and a 300 point boost to Cure IV would affect non-White Mage curing much more.

Keep in mind that this formula is just a basic suggestion that would need tweaking however. Perhaps it would help if someone gave a good suggestion for this, instead of saying that White Mage has no complaints, because a good tweak to how important Healing Magic skill is could help non-White Mage classes out too.

Who knows? Maybe cures are in need of a drastic increase in power in general. Maybe my basic proposal isn't all that good, maybe the cap should just be raised for all spells (especially Cure VI :mad:). But maybe this will help spark discussion.

[saevel]

Well the cure formula already scales pretty well with skill. But there is a soft cap placed on the effects of skill / MND that make it ridiculously easy to hit at subjob level skill. If they would ease up on that then you'd see a noticeable jump in base cure power of each spell, including cure V.

[Economizer]

Well the cure formula already scales pretty well with skill. But there is a soft cap placed on the effects of skill / MND that make it ridiculously easy to hit at subjob level skill. If they would ease up on that then you'd see a noticeable jump in base cure power of each spell, including cure V.

I don't think Healing Magic skill affects cures enough, regardless of whether or not it can be considered to scale up well. It takes five points of Healing Magic skill to equal a point of Mind, even on higher tier cures, and it isn't like there is a piece of gear that gives more then 20 points (effectively 4 MND, but without the offensive casting benefits).

On just removing the caps, I thought it sounded like a good idea, so I looked into it and did some advanced research on some of the cures. I already knew that Cure V and VI hard cap and Cure I, II, III, and IV all softcap (much of this is tested from Brews I believe?) and the fomulas vary between them. Cure V's formula is much less impressive when softcaps are removed as well (and Cure VI even less so, both with and without any caps).

Of course, you didn't suggest removing the caps altogether (and I don't think SE ever would either, since Cure I/II would both cure about 500 a piece, Cure III about 600, Cure IV about 1000, and Cure V around 1305 - basically, unless enmity is an issue, Cure V would be placed about where Cure VI is now, Cure IV would be the go to large damage cure, and White Mages would alternate between Cure I/II because they'd both be free cures with AF3 pants), and I'm mainly posting this because it is interesting.

But if the cure caps were eased up so that MP efficiency could reach anywhere higher then around 1.1HP/MP, this would mean that Cure V would start to perform poorly compared to other cures unless the formula for it was changed. If Cure IV got a 1.1HP/MP boost to its softcap, it would mean it would heal something like 500HP (~750HP at 50% potency gear) compared to its current ~400HP (~600HP). Cure III would cure about an additional ~50HP (~75HP) more. I'm not sure these are the numbers we'd want to see, so Cure V might need adjustment if softcaps were eased upon - Healing Magic skill would be a good way to do this.

I'm sorry if I got a bit sidetracked, but based on looking into this idea, I'm not sure if it is completely preferable, but more input helps any analysis.

[Kitkat]

Would be interesting if that could be implemented without the Enmity increasing along with it. Due to the high HP ranges most reach now, both in and out of abyssea, there should be something that adjusts the way the cure spells react once beyond a set skill lvl. Something like less than 300 skill produces the current soft caps, but beyond 300 skill range causes a new equation which enhances the limits of cure spells, or possibly anything learned at the level 85 range (passive trait) that allows cures to extend beyond their previous limitations. Only thing that really worries me about increasing the caps of lower tier is the enmity gains that come with it if they don't re-adjust those as well.

[Seriha]

Maybe just make it so the previous tier can reach 80% of the next with healing skill in relation to WHM's gains. So, if Cure II would heal 90, Cure I could heal 72 by the time you could learn Cure II if you had capped skill. Current enmity values could be maintained so a 500-something Cure IV before gear won't basically be provoke on an 8s recast.

[Mageoholic]

Or they could just adjust the enmity of all healing spells to match the levels C5 puts out. There is no reason a single 400 C4 should pull hate over a 1K C5. Not to mention the bane of low level grouping was always the healer pulling hate off the tank. It occurred so often in the game and didn't need to.

Healing skill needs to change, it has to affect the power of cures to a greater extent. There is no reason anything /WHM with a Light Staff can heal almost as well as my RDM (unless they have Cure+% gear.), let alone a level 61 WHM out healing a 90 RDM. (to the poster above, this is a comparison between my jobs, and regarding abyssea.)

But i think enmity levels on cures should be lowered to C5 levels across the board.

(not to mention next cap increase anything /RDM has the exact same base curing power as us.)

[Seriha]

Step out of Abyssea and see how long a 61 WHM can hold over RDM in endgame situations. This isn't much different than people saying anyone who subs WHM is as good a healer, as RDM's healing isn't all about raw curative power, but how Fast Cast helps them get cures out faster while debuffs keep damage from coming less often. A 61 WHM will not be landing Slow or Paralyze, nor have anywhere near the MP longevity or potential cure potency.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Or they could just adjust the enmity of all healing spells to match the levels C5 puts out. There is no reason a single 400 C4 should pull hate over a 1K C5. Not to mention the bane of low level grouping was always the healer pulling hate off the tank. It occurred so often in the game and didn't need to.

Healing skill needs to change, it has to affect the power of cures to a greater extent. There is no reason anything /WHM with a Light Staff can heal almost as well as my RDM (unless they have Cure+% gear.), let alone a level 61 WHM out healing a 90 RDM. (to the poster above, this is a comparison between my jobs, and regarding abyssea.)

But i think enmity levels on cures should be lowered to C5 levels across the board.
/
(not to mention next cap increase anything /RDM has the exact same base curing power as us.)

Not to mention Haste.

[Kitkat]

Step out of Abyssea and see how long a 61 WHM can hold over RDM in endgame situations. This isn't much different than people saying anyone who subs WHM is as good a healer, as RDM's healing isn't all about raw curative power, but how Fast Cast helps them get cures out faster while debuffs keep damage from coming less often. A 61 WHM will not be landing Slow or Paralyze, nor have anywhere near the MP longevity or potential cure potency.

Considering most whm to any endgame outside of abyssea will always be 90+, this has little merit. Considering that, this is technically inaccurate ever since whm gained the passive trait Divine Benison. In conjunction with this passive, merits to lower recast on cure, and gear that gives additional -cure casing time they have actually reached the same casting speeds as rdm has with 1-4 line and near instance cast for V and VI. The only time my whm has run into MP efficiency issues is when curing more than 8 people without any other back up. Ever since /rdm came along with refresh and convert not to mention upwards of 5mp/tic worth of gear to swap into and gear that actually lowers the cost of cures (returns 5% of cured hp back to mp) even out of abyssea it isn't an issue to keep mp through longer fights. On top of this Whm also has Regen IV and Curaga I-V to return hp far more effectively.

The only time my rdm has really seemed to pull ahead is when a constant stream of cures needs to be sent out, but those situations only appeared if someone couldn't listen to a fight strategy and were being incompetent. Not to mention eventually it down-spirals due to the limited choices of cure/hp restorative spells available to rdm.

[Seriha]

I have no doubt 90+ WHMs are in a good place. I was just focusing on how a 61 WHM or anyone not RDM or SCH /WHM isn't THAT good.

[Economizer]

Don't undervalue yourself. Not every White Mage has a ton of Refresh gear, and even those that do definitely benefit from having a Red Mage Refresh II them (especially since many White Mages sub Scholar and have to rely on Sublimation otherwise). While I can manage MP decently in WoE with gear as a White Mage, I definitely miss my Red Mage friends (I also didn't 5/5 Devotion for nothing). And heaven forbid I try to level there with my terribly geared Summoner.

That said, I'm thinking that there should be more ways to boost the effectiveness of Refresh II then just the AF3 pants, especially since Bards and Corsairs have so much Refresh to cast these days. Perhaps Refresh II should grant an extra point per tic per 100 Enhancing Magic skill?


I have no doubt 90+ WHMs are in a good place. I was just focusing on how a 61 WHM or anyone not RDM or SCH /WHM isn't THAT good.

To be fair, SMN/WHM, since they cap cure potency. BRD/WHM can do it now too, and since they can cast a decent amount of Refresh, although I fully expect them to go /RDM with Cure IV and Haste, for the Fast Cast. I could mention BLU as well, but they excel for different reasons.

Of course, all of these jobs (except maybe BLU) have been asked to main cure in a party at some point, and support cure for events too. I'd go on, but the idea that a 61 WHM can outheal a Red Mage without a Refresh source is laughable, and moot since nobody invites a 61 White Mage to an event unless they really don't want to invite other people.

[saevel]

Personally I'd just want SE to create a RDM line of state enfeebling spells and not make NM's resistant to them. I've said it before but it bears repeating.

Attack-Down
Defense-Down
Magic-Attack Down
Magic-Defense Down
Evasion-Down
Accuracy-Down
Magic-Evasion-Down
Magic-Accuracy-Down
Crit-Rate-Down

And then base STAT enfeebles
Reduce-STR
Reduce-VIT
Reduce-DEX
Reduce-AGI
Reduce-MND
Reduce-INT
Reduce-CHR

The BLM and DRK versions both have serious side effects (C and D skill respectively) along with poor scaling.

Those would make me a happy camper.

[Kitkat]

Eh, I think refresh II is fine the way it is actually. Coupled with gear effects (a whm or a rdm has at least 2-3 pieces easily) it isn't too hard to get 9~12mp/tic outside of abyssea. If we were still stuck using refresh and it wasn't available via sub then I could see a change like that being a good idea. Honestly, I've rarely ever had the chance to be pair with a rdm (or the few I did forgot to refresh II on occasions) let alone two jobs (cor brd or rdm) that could stack refresh options. In the rare chance that does occur, you're then capable of getting 10~15mp/tic or greater if all 3 are together. Like I said though, that is a rare occurrence. Given this I can't see the need for the potency of Refresh II to scale with enhancing magic.

As for the new line of enfeebles, hmmm. The acc/eva/att/etc ones kinda exist already, but were given to blu instead (not that many really use them even if they set them). You lost me for a second about the reduce-stat line since it almost sounded like you were comparing them to drks absorb-stat which they have good skill rating for since it works off dark magic skill. Given that, I seriously doubt if they made this line that drk would even get it, but blm might...though they already have spells similar to this in the form of choke/burn/drown/etc and is based of elemental skill and has DoT effect.

Still would hope that SE reforms the Tier II enfeebles by making them actual scrolls and instead making Tier II merits "enhance potency" of said enfeeble types. It just doesn't make much sense that a job that has A+ enfeebling has to unlock spells of this type, and at a limited choice range, rather than learn them. Especailly when they aren't extremely strong considering certain other enfeebling spells/songs brd or blu get.

[saevel]

Eh, I think refresh II is fine the way it is actually. Coupled with gear effects (a whm or a rdm has at least 2-3 pieces easily) it isn't too hard to get 9~12mp/tic outside of abyssea. If we were still stuck using refresh and it wasn't available via sub then I could see a change like that being a good idea. Honestly, I've rarely ever had the chance to be pair with a rdm (or the few I did forgot to refresh II on occasions) let alone two jobs (cor brd or rdm) that could stack refresh options. In the rare chance that does occur, you're then capable of getting 10~15mp/tic or greater if all 3 are together. Like I said though, that is a rare occurrence. Given this I can't see the need for the potency of Refresh II to scale with enhancing magic.

As for the new line of enfeebles, hmmm. The acc/eva/att/etc ones kinda exist already, but were given to blu instead (not that many really use them even if they set them). You lost me for a second about the reduce-stat line since it almost sounded like you were comparing them to drks absorb-stat which they have good skill rating for since it works off dark magic skill. Given that, I seriously doubt if they made this line that drk would even get it, but blm might...though they already have spells similar to this in the form of choke/burn/drown/etc and is based of elemental skill and has DoT effect.

Still would hope that SE reforms the Tier II enfeebles by making them actual scrolls and instead making Tier II merits "enhance potency" of said enfeeble types. It just doesn't make much sense that a job that has A+ enfeebling has to unlock spells of this type, and at a limited choice range, rather than learn them. Especailly when they aren't extremely strong considering certain other enfeebling spells/songs brd or blu get.

We know they exist already, monsters use them all the time. BLU's kinda sorta have them, but their effect tends to be random and often long casting and not very efficient. I'm talking a straight spell that only does that effect.

Both BLM and DRK have a form of -stat down, both have horrible side effects. For BLM its that they have elements that are incompatible and have horrible scaling. 150+ INT is only -13 stat, and you can't get -AGI and -VIT at the same time.

For DRK its that they have horrible duration, the effect starts to wear immediately upon cast making it useful for a handful of seconds only. RDM also has D skill in dark magic which limits our ability to use the Absorb spells.

I'm wanting a real enfeebling skill based version that reduces the stats directly.

If SE is wanting us to be masters of enfeebling then they need to be serious about it. No half stepping or half way measure will work.

[tyrantsyn]

Personally I'd just want SE to create a RDM line of state enfeebling spells and not make NM's resistant to them. I've said it before but it bears repeating.

Attack-Down
Defense-Down
Magic-Attack Down
Magic-Defense Down
Evasion-Down
Accuracy-Down
Magic-Evasion-Down
Magic-Accuracy-Down
Crit-Rate-Down

And then base STAT enfeebles
Reduce-STR
Reduce-VIT
Reduce-DEX
Reduce-AGI
Reduce-MND
Reduce-INT
Reduce-CHR

The BLM and DRK versions both have serious side effects (C and D skill respectively) along with poor scaling.

Those would make me a happy camper.

I think SE would sooner bring Oracle out to ffxi before giving us these. But that's not to say I don't love the idea. having half of these would even be great.

[Kitkat]

My problem with it is this: Even if SE decided to go this route, how useful would they even be for endgame? Almost everything is extremely resistant or immune to certain spells and in some cases can only have dia or bio landed on them. A vast majority of newer NM mobs are even immune to Bind/gravity hindering crowd control efforts (makes trying to fix WoE cluster pull mistakes impossible) so who is to say that any of these spells would even have a use against higher tier monsters?

In areas that don't require long fights you won't be fighting anything long enough to make the enfeeble really worth the mp to cast it. Seriously, even with high Skill ranges for the versions that already exist 9/10 cast will be completely resisted or in the cast of absorb-line partially resisted making the effect only last mere seconds.

I don't want a whole line of spells that is effectively moot in large-scale fights and currently that is one of the biggest issues with rdm. A+ Skill and being blocked due to immunity traits on large-scale NM. Some of these spells we already have: Def-down? Dia I-III. Attack-down? Bio I-III. Acc-down? Blind I-II. Evasion-Down? Gravity. Biggest problem is....immunity/resist or hard cap cause we are still using spells we've had since before lvl 50 that isn't scaling with enfeebling magic well, or we were forced to waste merit points on 2 tier II/III spells that should be turned into scrolls since the lvl 75 cap increase.

Instead of giving a new line that basically does the same thing they should rework the existing spells or give rdm something that actually allows them to land these spells where others can't no matter how high their enfeebling can go. Something like a passive trait that surpasses otherwise immunities, but instead of being immune the monster will only be highly resistant. I can understand some immunities not being affected by this still, but currently there are far too many immunities that has caused Rdm to be near obsolete for enfeebling.

[saevel]

Kitkat go back and reread what I posted.


create a RDM line of state enfeebling spells and not make NM's resistant to them

You guys asked for enfeebles, thus I present enfeebles. Stat reductions are the only enfeebles that won't break the game and thus get nerfed into oblivion.

[Kitkat]

Yes, but you aren't SE. They are notorious for taking a good idea, turning around and implementing it and making it weaker or less useful (Decoy shot, nerfed heavy strike, etc). So regardless of what you want out of this line there is possibility it will still end up being just as useless and previously existing iterations of the proposed spells. As already shown, other source versions exist and aren't useful enough to cast regularly because of duration, resist rate, or cast/recast of the spell.

Thing about spell ideas is you have to put a lot of "what if" into the planning. Say they do add these spells and they are good, but they forget to think about previous existing spells that create similar effects. Players figure out that they can stack and begin to do so creating a new form of unexpected balance issues. Thus said spells become weaker, or then can't be stacked causing one to overwrite the other creating a "uselessness" to the spells introduced since they now are only worth while for messing around or low-man lesser NM fights.

Call it pessimism, but SE is very good at making something sound good with hype, then failing to really deliver after implementation.

[saevel]

Yes, but you aren't SE. They are notorious for taking a good idea, turning around and implementing it and making it weaker or less useful (Decoy shot, nerfed heavy strike, etc). So regardless of what you want out of this line there is possibility it will still end up being just as useless and previously existing iterations of the proposed spells. As already shown, other source versions exist and aren't useful enough to cast regularly because of duration, resist rate, or cast/recast of the spell.

Thing about spell ideas is you have to put a lot of "what if" into the planning. Say they do add these spells and they are good, but they forget to think about previous existing spells that create similar effects. Players figure out that they can stack and begin to do so creating a new form of unexpected balance issues. Thus said spells become weaker, or then can't be stacked causing one to overwrite the other creating a "uselessness" to the spells introduced since they now are only worth while for messing around or low-man lesser NM fights.

Call it pessimism, but SE is very good at making something sound good with hype, then failing to really deliver after implementation.

I agree, but that applies to EVERY single spell / ability in the game. It's like the universal disclaimer when referring to SE doing something.

I specifically chose those because their the hardest to screw up. Out of all "enfeeble" ideas, the ones that are the easiest to mess up are the complex ones due to requiring SE to get multiple factors correct. The hardest to mess up are the direct ones with the fewest variables. Look at Dia III vs Paralyze II. On paper Paralyze II would seem awesome, when the monsters use it on us it's potent and has a chance to block spells, attacks, JA's and items. So putting it on the monster would be a good idea. Except in SE's work, the effectiveness is vastly diminished, monsters don't use JA's or items, and their spells seem to be mostly immune to the effects. The things you absolutely want it on would be NM's, their regular attacks can be dangerous, except it doesn't work on most of them. So in reality Paralyze II is mostly useless. Dia III on paper is just Dia II +5%, it lasts 30~2:30 seconds and does 3hp/tick damage. On paper it looks kinda meh, but in actuality it's awesome. Monsters can't resist it, it will always hit for 15% defense down, and the math of the game lends exponential gains to stacking defense down. Dia III ends up being 17.6% attack bonus to every single alliance member, and even the BLU spells's and pets's get the attack bonus, a group that has no other way of enhancing their "attack". In actual usage Dia III is our most potent and useful spell.

So I say again, those above listed debuffs would be the simplest. Cast spell, monster does resist check, if fail then monsters stat is reduced based on your MND or INT or whatever.

[cidbahamut]

On paper Paralyze II would seem awesome, when the monsters use it on us it's potent and has a chance to block spells, attacks, JA's and items. So putting it on the monster would be a good idea. Except in SE's work, the effectiveness is vastly diminished, monsters don't use JA's or items, and their spells seem to be mostly immune to the effects.

I'm sorry, but what? Paralyze interrupts NM spellcasting plenty, it's just not as frequently seen as an attack getting interrupted, but that's because there are generally more normal attacks being performed over the course of a battle than there are spells being cast. So...yay for eyeballing?

As for stat down enfeebles, are elemental debuffs still in fashion? Because I can't recall the last time I saw anyone bother to cast them and all they are is a stat down effect with some mild DoT, which seems to be what you're pushing for.

[Quetzacoatl]

/sigh
This is truly frustrating with RDMs, but I've already proven my point, and well, nothing is going to come of DD things anyway so I have no reason to stay here. I'm done now /tap out, see you around if this ever starts picking up again.

We won't miss you.

[saevel]

I'm sorry, but what? Paralyze interrupts NM spellcasting plenty, it's just not as frequently seen as an attack getting interrupted, but that's because there are generally more normal attacks being performed over the course of a battle than there are spells being cast. So...yay for eyeballing?

As for stat down enfeebles, are elemental debuffs still in fashion? Because I can't recall the last time I saw anyone bother to cast them and all they are is a stat down effect with some mild DoT, which seems to be what you're pushing for.

I tend to ignore you whenever possible, but just this one I'll reply.

Nearly every HNM is straight up immune to paralyze, as in I can cast it with 415+ enfeebling skill, tons of M.acc and HQ Ice staff, and it's still resisted 5/5 times. After that I just stop trying to land it. The few HNM's that it does land on have a pure potency reduction from 50~80%. Basically it won't even proc, and if it does it'll be a one shot thing. On anything not HNM / super immune then Paralyze II is awesome. While we fought the Tiamat v3 inside Ifrits Cauldrin one of my jobs as a RDM was to hold the baby off in a corner. It was ridiculous, hit it with Para II and I would get a good 40%+ proc rate, it was visibly noticeable. This tells me that the spell's mechanics are not weak, but that SE is deliberately making their NM's resistant to it to prevent us from using it. They are doing to Paralyze II what they did to Silence, Sleep, Gravity and Bind. Dia III on the other hand is unresistable, it's effect will always proc and always at full potency on every HNM ever created or that will ever be created. It's a guaranteed 17.6% increase in everyone's attack (actually more with Emp armor) and that is amazing. It's like berserk on everyone in the alliance.

As for the element enfeebles, you might want to go check up on them. Their -stat effect doesn't scale well. At 150+ INT it's only -13 stat. They also don't stack well, I can't reduce the monsters VIT and AGI at the same time. They use elemental skill not enfeeble skill and thus we'll always have issues landing them at high potency. What I'm arguing for is a pure enfeebling skill line of -STAT enfeebles that actually scale. Something on the order of a reverse Gain spell, -20 ~ -30 of a Stat is noticeable. Also don't limit it to just the STR / DEX / VIT stats but also include the enfeeble effects of Attack Down, Defense Down, Evasion Down, and so forth. These already exist, in the WAR break WS and several BLU spells. Also the monster use them constantly on us. If SE wanted it would be trivial to create these, you cast it and the monster checks resistance. If pass then land for an effect determined by your INT and call it a day.

It would give us a new line of enfeebles that would work in HNM situations and would give us a unique role to play. Sticking a bunch of those on any HNM would make it weaker. It wouldn't' break the game as the NM still has access to all it's OMFGBBQ moves and you haven't blocked any of it's actions. SE broke all our previous enfeebles because if they work, they work too well and block a NM's ability to do stuff.

[cidbahamut]

5 casts is a poor sample size but with the immunity trend I can't really fault you for throwing up your hands in despair after a few casts.

Fun bit of trivia for you: There actually are a handful of things that have a chance to resist Dia. I don't recall what they are, but I know I saw something resist dia once because I screamed bloody murder to my linkshell about it. They were like "yeah, some stuff resists it. Weird, huh?". I think it may have been the Hydra in besieged, but I'm not certain

As for elemental enfeebles scaling poorly...well I think we can all agree that SE needs to overhaul a ton of their formulas to make things scale better in general now that we're looking at an additional 24 levels beyond what those formulas were designed around.