Idiocy

[Kyokaku]

I don't believe this update notes. Like, i really don't.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

Let's take a look at these update notes:

Good Things:

Blue got HNM spells. This is good because anyone with the job leveled knows the pain of having your best spells feeding either a lot of tp for mediocre damage, or your magical spells being resisted or again dealing mediocre damage. Don't get me wrong, You can perform well under Abyssea conditions. But go and try to Nuke a Voidwrought with Everyone's Grudge and you will see.

It will also allow for more soloing potentials - As long as you don't NEED to set the spell before it can be actually used. If you do, depending on the usefulness of the spell, *insert troll face here*.

Everything else:

Congrats scholars. You finally moaned and complained and SE threw you note a bone, but a lol. You got a 2hr spell that does massive AoE Damage (i suspect) and potent DoT. Awsome!

This isn't good. This isn't gamebreaking. Fact is, your SCH job is still useless. Why? In what other scenario do jobs perform 2hrs more then every 2 hours? Abyssea.

WAKE UP PEOPLE. Abyssea isn't the endgame content. MNK + WHM = You have beaten abyssea. That's pretty common knowledge by now. So what SE should have done, and in thier apparent blindness have completely missed, is improve scholars usability in anything outside of Abyssea. Let's take a look at some examples:

SCH DoT Is useless, Most HNM resist.
SCH Cure 4 is useless, it pulls hate and PLD and RDM do it better.
SCH can't outcure a WHM. Period.
SCH can't outnuke a BLM. Period.

So hurray and congrats to your new 2hr ability, i'm sure you're all so very excited for it.

Moving on, Let's look at the other jobs.
Why didn't RDM and SCH recieve cure 5? The game is clearly dying and the population decays what seems exponentially, and still the only job in this game that can keep a tank up in anything but abyssea is WHM. Interesting.

SE, you still haven't fixed Paladin. This JA does benefit Aegis paladins, if it works how i suspect it will, it'll almost obsolete Ochain. I have an Ochain, so this JA is going to be pretty much useless (since i block 100% anyway). But, that dosen't really save the game.

A lot of people will say "Lawl pld can't get hate anyway mnk and nin ftw"

That is the case only in abyssea. Have you ever tried using a MNK tank on any serious VNM or WoE NM? Nope. Neo-Dyna? Not happening. Why? Because its ABYSSEA.

Paladin hate is fine, this JA is good for anything but Aegis, but it's not what we needed SE. We needed a way to break the hate cap, or a way to lock hate temporarily. If you say cover, i say, lol.

Cor, poor Cor. Another set of what i suspect is pointless rolls. How many low man pet situations are there, that you want a cor, instead of another pet job? It's still the same rolls people want. It's still the same things cor want to do. No matter how you "roll the dice" on this one, they got screwed.

WHM got a nice JA, and so did RDM. Game changing? Not at all. But they are nice - and i think those jobs needed them.

Poor THF. That's all I need to say for that.

DD jobs - What can you really expect. War and Mnk are already too good. DRG SAM and DRK new JA's arent fantastic. I'm sure DRK nuke will be resisted 90% of the time, DRG got thier pet to survive a little longer, i guess, and SAM... Well SAM's in all honesty decent. I'll move that to the good section perhaps.

Summoner - Wow, Spring Water +1 But no HP cured either. Fan-freakin-tastic! Who made that idea? Let me shake your hand, that is EXACTLY what summoner needed! (if you can't decide, that's sarcasm not easily detected through text.)
In Defense, Ramuh's ability looks pretty sweet.

I'm pretty sure i'm done, and feel free to sit there and tell me how i'm wrong and stuff, but the point of this post is to explain;
This update hasn't done anything useful.

The game is moving away from Abyssea. The game's new focus is Neo-Dyna NMs, Voidwatch, WoE, Relic+2, all that. I'm burned out of Abyssea, i know you guys must be feeling that too.

I really really hope, there is a part II to adjustments.

[Karbuncle]

Ramuh's ability is Stun-ga, how is that useful >_> Especially if it suffers from the same amount of "Readying" time as other Bloodpacts.

It'd be like trying to stun with the casting time of Fire III :X

Edit: Also, I hope theres a part 2 as well, Maybe just for job traits? IDK. I like a most of the update notes but a lot left you wanting. Not too bad to me, Not great, but pretty good in my eyes.

[Kyokaku]

Oh i'm not saying it's awsome lol.
But it's a magic based Stun. It's at least more useful then some stupid erase-ruby.

[Karbuncle]

IDK, If it suffers from all BP Ready timer, It wont be useful for stunning anything short of Ancient Magic or a -ja spell, Otherwise it'll just be something you may use to buy a few seconds lol.

So yah, Not amazing, but not godawful i suppose. Depends on the MP cost and duration.

[Elexia]

Blu has plenty of stungas so yeah.


This update hasn't done anything useful.

Yeah I've been experiencing the update before everyone else as well and I agree absolutely nothing changed.

[JackDaniels]

Play the game for fun? Stop beeing l33t?

EDIT: Like I keep on saying, the real balancing will happen between at levels 96,97,98 and 99. They can't give every class uber spells/ abilities every 5 levels...

Look at refresh, you think the cap at level 50 was balanced?

[Rexen]

I don't think the update is as bad as people are saying at all. The abilities for the jobs I have are deffinatly welcome. White Mage and Bard both get auspice, something else to do when buffs are up and everyone's cured isn't a bad thing. Plus it raises the utility of the jobs, but it takes away something else of what Red Mage had and no other job did...

As far as the Scholar update goes, I think it's good. We don't know how the dot will affect HNMs, they mentioned something about NM resists I'm sure, but I can't think of where it was or when so no evidence. But it's not been implimented yet so I'd wait before calling it crap. I think raising the 2 hour length is a good thing and the new White Magic spell they got seems pretty cool to me.

Now, this "give other jobs Cure IV" argument is getting annoying. White Mages don't cast Cure VI outside Abyssea, it costs too much MP and it's overkill. If other jobs got Cure V, when the content moves outside Abyssea, White Mage will become a backburner job to the others like it was before. Even now, people seem to forget how much refresh and MP managment armor White Mage has and will always get a Red Mage outside Abyssea when in my experience I can make my MP last easily. If you pull too much hate then work on your enmity build when casting those spells. Cast the enmity down spell on you. You can do 60% more to your cures with Rapture and the +2 head. Scholar does not need Cure V, it was never meant to outnuke Black Mage or outheal White Mage, what would those jobs be if it did?

[Horadrim]

Kaustra and Brave would be better as Enlightenment only... they don't seem good enough for 2HR spells.. and the very idea of 2HR only spells bugs the living *** out of me...

Especially when BLU gains access to HNM spells as an effect of a side ability -- and BLU is already desired for parties... I have very little reason to even bother finishing SCH at this rate, and its one of my main jobs.

PUP got nothing... Yay, Subtle Blow! Now I can stop giving the mob as much TP in the parties I never get invited to because my job sucks without painstaking amounts of effort! Reducing strain on the Automaton is nice and all, but anyone with the right gear and the know-how shouldn't be overloading that much anyway.

BST's Run Wild just makes me raise an eyebrow, I can't imagine what they were thinking, and unless it turns your pet into a mini-NM, I don't expect it to be something people care much about.

BLM's ability is kind of whatever, Comet looks like it could be good, and I'm a fan of Thunder V and Blizzaja -- but frankly BLMs are a dime a dozen now, and I don't really feel like competing with people to be one anymore.

Its officially to the point where unless you're a certain job, its near impossible to actually enjoy playing... I'm having a harder and harder time logging on because all of the jobs I actually like (SCH and PUP specifically) are a whatever for most people and I have to compete against people who have a billion other jobs and want my drops as an after thought. Its not fair or practical that certain jobs have nothing to offer for events (why can't they at least give PUP an attachment that'll identify procs or something?) and act like nothing is wrong.


Play the game for fun? Stop beeing l33t?

EDIT: Like I keep on saying, the real balancing will happen between at levels 96,97,98 and 99. They can't give every class uber spells/ abilities every 5 levels...

Look at refresh, you think the cap at level 50 was balanced?

I don't try to be l33t, and that's part of the problem for me. There's no way to be a SCH or a PUP without being l33t because anything less makes you almost insignificant compared to other mages/DDs. I have 54/55 of the attachments before they added the most recent set from Ob -- that's already over a 4-5 million dollar investment. Any other job would instantly be effective with that kind of contribution, and yet my PUP is subpar at best -- which frankly isn't fair at all.

I'm not asking for some overwhelmingly powerful ability -- I just want to be able to PLAY AS MY JOB for more than just EXP burns in Abyssea -- which I currently can't 80% of the time. Where 80% means 99% of the time I'm not dealing with friends, and 100% that anything I'm actually significant when I am.

[Vivik]

Good job on the update SE! I like everything in it.

[Kyokaku]

I don't think the update is as bad as people are saying at all. The abilities for the jobs I have are deffinatly welcome. White Mage and Bard both get auspice, something else to do when buffs are up and everyone's cured isn't a bad thing. Plus it raises the utility of the jobs, but it takes away something else of what Red Mage had and no other job did...

As far as the Scholar update goes, I think it's good. We don't know how the dot will affect HNMs, they mentioned something about NM resists I'm sure, but I can't think of where it was or when so no evidence. But it's not been implimented yet so I'd wait before calling it crap. I think raising the 2 hour length is a good thing and the new White Magic spell they got seems pretty cool to me.

Now, this "give other jobs Cure IV" argument is getting annoying. White Mages don't cast Cure VI outside Abyssea, it costs too much MP and it's overkill. If other jobs got Cure V, when the content moves outside Abyssea, White Mage will become a backburner job to the others like it was before. Even now, people seem to forget how much refresh and MP managment armor White Mage has and will always get a Red Mage outside Abyssea when in my experience I can make my MP last easily. If you pull too much hate then work on your enmity build when casting those spells. Cast the enmity down spell on you. You can do 60% more to your cures with Rapture and the +2 head. Scholar does not need Cure V, it was never meant to outnuke Black Mage or outheal White Mage, what would those jobs be if it did?

Really. Do you know how hate mechanics work?

Healing jobs need a healing spell that will not immediately build a ton of emnity. Cure 5 is needed for RDM and SCH for that reason. At least for RDM.

You can do all the tricks and fandoozles you want on scholar. By the time those 15 seconds are up for you to give yourself 6 JA to do a 800 cure 4, i'm dead tanking the thing that's now comming for you.

[Horadrim]

Really. Do you know how hate mechanics work?

Healing jobs need a healing spell that will not immediately build a ton of emnity. Cure 5 is needed for RDM and SCH for that reason. At least for RDM.

You can do all the tricks and fandoozles you want on scholar. By the time those 15 seconds are up for you to give yourself 6 JA to do a 800 cure 4, i'm dead tanking the thing that's now comming for you.

Finally, someone who gets it...

What freaks me out about this anti-Cure V attitude is that even with it, RDM and SCH can't add Stoneskin as a side effect of Cures like WHM can... there are plenty of ways WHM greatly exceeds the capabilities of SCH and RDM with regard to healing...

[Ank]

Man while you are raise3ing your friends while they're playing with their flashy new toys you can look at them and say "just wait, in another hour and 45 minutes I can do it again!"

[Kyokaku]

What freaks me out about this anti-Cure V attitude is that even with it, RDM and SCH can't add Stoneskin as a side effect of Cures like WHM can... there are plenty of ways WHM greatly exceeds the capabilities of SCH and RDM with regard to healing...

All RDM and SCH want is to be supportive curers. No RDM and SCH will say they can outcure a WHM - or even want too. As it stands, if you bring a rdm, it casts refresh II, some enfeebles, then it sits. Why? Cure 4 pulls too much hate - they can't melee or AoE will kill them, they can't nuke with pitiful tier 4's in any reasonable way.

Sch is in the same boat.

If you INSIST rdm and sch shouldn't get cure 5, then do this. Drop the emnity from cure 4 and give PLD a job trait that GIVES that spell a lot of emnity. Problem solved.

[Kyokaku]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

Let me reclarify - RDM and SCH want to HELP heal, not only solely heal. Even go as far as take over for WHM in low man situations when one isnt available, or, to help with MP management in difficult fights.

Not pseudo-tank with cure 4 spam.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You can 'help' heal just fine with Cure 4. You don't need Cure V unless you're trying to main heal inside abyssea.

[Ank]

Do whm's want some kind of compensation?

[Eri]

Letme like add something...

While this Update doesn't seem the worst ever.... for some Jobs. Is cetainly pretty bad for others...

So like... I mainly Play Dnc,Thf, Pup and Whm so ye....

Dnc: a tripple attack flourish which you wont use ever since you want to stack climactic+ws ?
Fix the Supporter type Playstyle. I mostly end up tanking or DDing.

Thf: i need a way to get rid of hate not a way to intimidate if i got hate already -_-, Maybe this can be used as a Stun.... could potentionally be decent XD

Pup: Subtile Blow for my Pet that does not even near the dmg i do? I'd rather have it cure me -_-

Im Ok with WHM Thu :3

[user201108211515]

9/10 updates are ones that we could have lived with out.

Most times it makes the game worse or retroactively screws you out of alot of time you spend doing something the hard way.

Other wise we get adjustments that were not actually needed... I beleive this games 1st nail in the coffin was the MPK nerf.. No longer do we get the benefit of natural selection in weeding out the weak and lazy... Catering to the "Idiocy"... Kazam/GC/CN zone line trains were a good thing...

And it has been a reoccuring trend.. That it seems like SE has people that "fix" the game but they dont seem to actually play the game.. At least not for real. I'm sure they play test to check for bugs but how can they really know how real players will make use of what ever crazy new nonsence they pulled out of a hat. AKA despoil...

Many of the job forums have many posts of players that are unhappy with the job they play but.. What are they to do.. switch to a new job they be unhappy with. Thfs and rdms to be on the top of that list... Meanwhile already reamped jobs like sam and mnk that were shining in the ToAU days still get all kinds of love from SE.. Jobs that arent actually needed btw. All so pld and nin cant do the 1 job they are needed for because some other DD job is taking hate and able to tank. And why bother playn other jobs. Blms are invited so we can get a D2 after the event is over. And this isnt even talkn about aby

In aby unless you have nin or mnk + whm, and if you are lucky and someone is leting items go free lots.. if you have war,blm/brd or blu to proc.. who needs you.. No one that is who...

Such a fun game add on.. GJ people @ SE that seem to not play the game whatsoever.

GJ waiting like 7 years to finally nerf the HNM bots ability to prevent everyone else from playn the game properly. Especially now that the gear is mostly useless. Better late then never just dont seem to apply here tbh..


thf needs like 10 more JAs on shared timers I wont ever use.
rdm needs more spells like silence that wont land even though i have 443 enf magic skill.
Nin needs to get one shotted by t4ga spells.. who wants to tank magic mobs anyway, let the mnks do it, not like it costs them $ to tank.
Lets be sure to prevent schs 2hr from stacking with other schs.. Would want a bunch of "smart" jobs getn to gether and having more powerfull spells because of it..
That would be about as bad as leting DRKs 2hr stack with other drks aginst AV.. Cauz we all know how awesome drk still isnt...
About as usefull as charm is to bsts in aby.. They say "charm? you mean my bind JA?"... They shoulda just named that lady bug dipper shatty(figure it out)
Blms should get warpga and just incase they fell asleep from boredom anyone can make them cast it by asking for d3. Like that the usefull jobs dont have to walk home after.
Brd needs an extreamly small violin to play while they are cryn about having useless buffs.
Rng should lose 100 gill with every step they take.
Drg pets should be more usefull then the drg its self.. Makes sence really.
pup should be happy they are even a job and not an ashtray...
Pld needs more MP to back up cure since no one is allowed to come rdm and since pld dont tank.

mnk whm war blu dnc... just delete all the other jobs already.. call it a nerf no one will notice. A step further.. just delete all other zones becides PJ and aby zones and no one will notice.

Seriously though.. Its like they are asleep at the wheel.. Driving blind... Possably just dont care.. Not sure really.

99 content has to be better then this... Oh wait I just jinxed it didnt i...

[Malamasala]

thf needs like 10 more JAs on shared timers I wont ever use.

Sounds like you should play Summoner. Or Dancer, those also have plenty of shared timers. In third place you could try COR, but it doesn't feel as restricted as the previous two.

Personally though, I envy the PUPs who got pet subtle blow. I said earlier this year that SE needs to give it to all pet jobs so people will stop whining about "pet feeding TP!!!". Now you'll only ever see PUP's allowed to melee with pets, except they'll probably not invite the PUP to begin with.

I also bet 1 million that the BLM ability that does "Target person cast next spell for 0 MP" does not work on Blood Pacts. Which means the second most MP heavy job, gets no benefit from it, and it is just there for circle jerking BLMs to cast on each other.

Apart from that it seems like a fine update to me. I'm not thrilled about stunga, but I'll consider it as awesome as all my other wards.

[Sparthos]

COR got screwed? The ability to use 3 rolls and a proper XI roll-fix is not being screwed.

Anza wrote a beautiful piece on the COR forums about how great the changes could be for addressing issues Corsairs currently have, I suggest you read it over.

If we want to talk about "screwed", I direct you to THF who have gone from dashing rogues to thick-headed high school jocks.

[Eri]

... Now you'll only ever see PUP's allowed to melee with pets, except they'll probably not invite the PUP to begin with.


Made my Day! So True XD

[Neisan_Quetz]

Sounds like you should play Summoner. Or Dancer, those also have plenty of shared timers. In third place you could try COR, but it doesn't feel as restricted as the previous two.

Personally though, I envy the PUPs who got pet subtle blow. I said earlier this year that SE needs to give it to all pet jobs so people will stop whining about "pet feeding TP!!!". Now you'll only ever see PUP's allowed to melee with pets, except they'll probably not invite the PUP to begin with.

I also bet 1 million that the BLM ability that does "Target person cast next spell for 0 MP" does not work on Blood Pacts. Which means the second most MP heavy job, gets no benefit from it, and it is just there for circle jerking BLMs to cast on each other.

Apart from that it seems like a fine update to me. I'm not thrilled about stunga, but I'll consider it as awesome as all my other wards.

Which would make since, since, you know, Bloodpacts are job abilities and not spells.

[DebbieGibson]

Sch should have never been added. They shouldn't be able to outnuke or outheal blm and whm

[Aldersyde]

Sch should have never been added. They shouldn't be able to outnuke or outheal blm and whm

This. And some people are still clamoring for SE to add more jobs? Why? They can't even balance the jobs they already do have. And adding more just ends up with with a bunch that are crappier versions of jobs that they already had in the first place.

[Sparthos]

Time Mage, Geomancer, Morpher pls pls.

[Miera]

Man while you are raise3ing your friends while they're playing with their flashy new toys you can look at them and say "just wait, in another hour and 45 minutes I can do it again!"If ONRY I HAD RAISE 3! ;_;

Now The scroll will sky rocket even more! Dumb BCNMs here I come... Is it even worth the trouble, really? <_<

[Panthera]

Time Mage, Geomancer, Morpher pls pls.

These will be introduced in the next full-blown expansion! ;)

PS: in before threadnuke.

[user201108211515]

Brezerker, juggler, choco knight... so many andanced jobs they could make...

And even master jobs. assassin, tempest, necromancer, hell they could even bring in the princess job from enixs ogre battle.

I could see to unlock master jobs.. like assassin.. would require thf and nin @ 99 and to unlick the job the 2 required jobs are DLV to 1..

Necromancer for smn n blm

brezerker.. war and drk...

So on and such..

Still plenty of missing FF related content...

[Horadrim]

9/10 updates are ones that we could have lived with out.

Most times it makes the game worse or retroactively screws you out of alot of time you spend doing something the hard way.

Other wise we get adjustments that were not actually needed... I beleive this games 1st nail in the coffin was the MPK nerf.. No longer do we get the benefit of natural selection in weeding out the weak and lazy... Catering to the "Idiocy"... Kazam/GC/CN zone line trains were a good thing...

And it has been a reoccuring trend.. That it seems like SE has people that "fix" the game but they dont seem to actually play the game.. At least not for real. I'm sure they play test to check for bugs but how can they really know how real players will make use of what ever crazy new nonsence they pulled out of a hat. AKA despoil...

Many of the job forums have many posts of players that are unhappy with the job they play but.. What are they to do.. switch to a new job they be unhappy with. Thfs and rdms to be on the top of that list... Meanwhile already reamped jobs like sam and mnk that were shining in the ToAU days still get all kinds of love from SE.. Jobs that arent actually needed btw. All so pld and nin cant do the 1 job they are needed for because some other DD job is taking hate and able to tank. And why bother playn other jobs. Blms are invited so we can get a D2 after the event is over. And this isnt even talkn about aby

In aby unless you have nin or mnk + whm, and if you are lucky and someone is leting items go free lots.. if you have war,blm/brd or blu to proc.. who needs you.. No one that is who...

Such a fun game add on.. GJ people @ SE that seem to not play the game whatsoever.

GJ waiting like 7 years to finally nerf the HNM bots ability to prevent everyone else from playn the game properly. Especially now that the gear is mostly useless. Better late then never just dont seem to apply here tbh..


thf needs like 10 more JAs on shared timers I wont ever use.
rdm needs more spells like silence that wont land even though i have 443 enf magic skill.
Nin needs to get one shotted by t4ga spells.. who wants to tank magic mobs anyway, let the mnks do it, not like it costs them $ to tank.
Lets be sure to prevent schs 2hr from stacking with other schs.. Would want a bunch of "smart" jobs getn to gether and having more powerfull spells because of it..
That would be about as bad as leting DRKs 2hr stack with other drks aginst AV.. Cauz we all know how awesome drk still isnt...
About as usefull as charm is to bsts in aby.. They say "charm? you mean my bind JA?"... They shoulda just named that lady bug dipper shatty(figure it out)
Blms should get warpga and just incase they fell asleep from boredom anyone can make them cast it by asking for d3. Like that the usefull jobs dont have to walk home after.
Brd needs an extreamly small violin to play while they are cryn about having useless buffs.
Rng should lose 100 gill with every step they take.
Drg pets should be more usefull then the drg its self.. Makes sence really.
pup should be happy they are even a job and not an ashtray...
Pld needs more MP to back up cure since no one is allowed to come rdm and since pld dont tank.

mnk whm war blu dnc... just delete all the other jobs already.. call it a nerf no one will notice. A step further.. just delete all other zones becides PJ and aby zones and no one will notice.

Seriously though.. Its like they are asleep at the wheel.. Driving blind... Possably just dont care.. Not sure really.

99 content has to be better then this... Oh wait I just jinxed it didnt i...

Seem, I'm no proponent of complainers and whiners -- more often enough I go against people begging for things for jobs....

But then, there's this blaring issue of SE designing the game in a direction that alienates jobs and trying to say "oh, the next bit of content is good for you."

No, every piece of content should be accessible to all jobs. Its nice to have the option to level up multiple jobs, but when you turn that into a demand it becomes ridiculous.

Puppetmaster, when it first came out, was one of the most appealing and amazing sounds jobs in FFXI to me. You got a stagnant pet that you could upgrade and customize -- it was like Summoner without the perpetuation cost and Beastmaster with more ownership of the actual pet.

And since, it has been nothing but a disappointment. Anytime Puppetmaster caught a break, it was patched out as a glitch, and there hasn't been a single event where Puppetmaster was the preferred job. (I guess for a while Salvage was one, but even that wasn't a huge deal.)

Scholar was haphazardly handled and treated like it was going to be some kind of wholly special and unique mage class, then they turned it into a hyper complicated version of Red Mage and billed it like it was the nuking side of Red Mage's melee --- even though they've gone out of their way to keep Red Mages melee from being the preferred play style. So you end up with a thrown together excuse for a mage job with a joke role of "versatile mage" and nothing to offer on either side of its proposed abilities. If you've got electrical problems, are you going to call the general repairman who might be able to help, or the Master Electrician who can probably tell you exactly what's wrong over the phone? I think its pretty obvious.

And I agree with people when they say Scholar shouldn't be able to outnuke Black Mage or outcure White Mage -- they, in FFXI light, should be completely different from that. There are so many design options, and yet in lieu of any that could have worked to make Scholar a job you want to find to invite ALONG SIDE a Black Mage or White Mage -- we ended up here, in a world specifically designed to where its either White Mage, Black Mage, or bust.

And the list goes on across other jobs with regard to the blaring and ridiculous balance issues that should have been resolved years ago and just managed to get worse with the creation of Abyssea.

The update looks interesting and fun on the surface, but only when coming from the point of view of one of the jobs that isn't painfully unusable in 70-90% of the most active content. For those of us playing jobs with major issues, say Paladin, Dragoon, Puppetmaster, Scholar... its just another slap in the face. I don't see what's wrong, frankly, with wanting to be able to actually go to events and PLAY THE GAME on a job you actually like to play, as opposed to having to toss gear around anytime someone's doing an event so you can swap to a job you only have leveled because no one wants your main. And fine, the game's moving away from Abyssea -- but I can guarantee you, at this rate, the odds of me being able to do anything that comes out for level 96-99 with PUP are slim to none. And that, quite simply, is stupid.

[Malacite]

tl;dr

QQ Moar.


Honestly this is a pretty good update, for the most part. I'm a bit disappointed with THF PLD SMN & DRK but not really surprised either.

I'm just hoping they also start to do some of those WS & Enfeebling Magic "fixes". I'm tired of every NM being either immune or super-resistant to key spells that would make the fight much easier & justify having a dedicated enfeebler.

[Olor]

don't forget BST's COOL NEW ABILITY

WASTE GIL = make your pet no one cares about stronger for five minutes and then watch your gil go down the toilet! WOO HOO!

[Olor]

Also, did BLM really need to get all the best boosts? I mean wasn't it the most played/popular job in the last survey? How about some boosts for jobs THAT ACTUALLY NEED IT.

I am just gobsmacked that SCH got pretty much nothing but a TWO HOUR spells and BLM gets a whole crapton of cool spells and an MP saving ability. I mean, what the hell.

[Saefinn]

I think SCH is underused because people don't understand SCH or how it works. Yes if you want a healer in Aby you invite a WHM because even with Rapture SCH will have a hard time keeping people alive for certain NMs. I am actually frequently explaining how SCH isn't RDM and what it can do and what it's actually useful for. People who team up with me know that SCH is a great job in Aby, sure it sucks on the proccing side and isn't a great main healer, but not all parties in Aby require everybody to help proc - seals parties tend to be done with the fewest people to avoid competition between seals, so it's harder to get invited to a seals party with a SCH (people normally ask if I have a WHM or a BLM instead). I think people just forget about SCH, normally I find people think of SCH as the RDM who sucks at melee, therefore assume it has a similar spell list.

What I really think SCH needs is for their current spell set to be more potent, except the nukes of course. Stormsurge only gives +7 boosts, which in Aby isn't that noticeable, the enmity spells...they could be very useful if they were better - it would be a great complement to a party, tanks would find it harder to lose hate and the BLM's can continue to spam. Our helices should be our main asset, huge DoT spells, fantastic for NM kiting, go /RDM, Gravity + Helix = claimed mob & slow mob & mob losing HP, have used that trick when I've had a tank charmed (sleep tank, kite mob). So the Modus Veritas fix is much needed.

So I don't think the current adjustments for SCH are important as I feel there are areas of SCH that needs more attention. However, I am not against the adjustments, I don't use Tabula Rasa, it seems I have an excuse to now but I do fear Merton's only applied usage will be to cap Azure. However, if that's all people use it for, I'll still try to make a better usage of it. I do feel Embrava should not be a 2hr, I think it would actually be a great SCH fix - a better Regain and a strong regen and SCH's own version of haste...well, I can imagine the haste would be stepping on toes, but for me it's the Gradual HP restore that gives interest. If it's potent, it might help solve SCH's issue as a healer, if it was like their helix spells this + Cure IV would give SCH an edge without being a WHM. But then I don't know the duration of the spell or how effective it'll be. I would like SCH to stick to exclusives and be considered useful for what it does, Embrava is probably the only new addition that follows the nature of SCH, but...you've only be able to do it on a 2hr. :/

At least this is my opinion as SCH, I suspect people will disagree. :P

[user201108211515]

alot of jobs use to be amazing so long ago.

Multi hit WS that gave actualy decient TP per hit return.

utsemi that blocked AoEs

enfeebles that would stick and not wear off because some other rdm that decided to tag along and not help cure, has to recast all dbuffs 1st.

Plds that tanked reguardless of damage they deal.

thfs that were usefull for actually pulling mobs to a safe camp so people could kill in a reasonable manner.. Now it just chaos people runnin arround doing w/e the hell to kill asap as if ya get a exp chain bonus in aby..

And its like this for pretty much every job -2.. 3 jobs... What once was amazing isnt really anymore...

Sure cor is making out decient this time arround but.. you dont proc in aby so atm still no one cares about ya..

Not tryn to be mean its just how it is. Can say people are jerks for not inviting the "sub par" jobs but in reality SE is to blame.

SE is to blame for catering to cheaters. Cauz it would be too much to ask for PC only servers where pretend leet players could cheat them selves into the next dimention of trash. (much of the nerfing in this game is thanks to cheaters making things unplayable for real players, SE has no desire to prevent people from cheating.. only punishing everyone... legit players pay the price while cheaters find the next exploit to further ruin the game)

Se is to blame for watered down jobs and content. Cauz the coding to give rdm c5 is just so much hard work. Its much easier to make generic atmas to be used as a crutch for people that cant really make it any other way.

Se is to blame for not really listening to its players. If se was listening... and this is what we get.. ambush.. aura steal... watered down version of the 2hrs we prolly rarely use anyway... Then do us all a favor and stop listening.. Things seem to only be geting worse since SE decided to up the LV cap to compete with a crap game like WoW.

We dont care what WoW is doing.. good for them. but its a bad game.. If it was a good game we would be playn it wouldnt we. Id rather ya rip off of PSO. That game is atleast fun to mess arround on.

All we can do is complain and hope things change for the better..

If se wants to improve pup.. they should be able to take over the controlls of any other player and play the character.. Go throw some mnks off a cliff...

[user201108211515]

Man when I LVd bst I never once used a jug pet. charm only.. The day SE nerfed leave(mpk nerf) the job died to me. Was one of the most fun jobs to play before that.

[user201108211515]

On a side note.. Considering this is the "idiocy" post...

what is it with the lame insults online thease days... umad.. ucryn. qq more.. Thease are all in the same sad catagory as your mom jokes.. If ya gonna insult people at least put some thought into it otherwise you only insult your self...

[Olor]

Now charm is essentially useless.

[tinydog]

yeah this update rocks. blm is getting crazy love. muahhaaha.

[Korpg]

Yet another complaining thread complaining about nothing.

Work with what you got, not with what you don't....

[Leonlionheart]

Thread is called Idiocy,

and that's all that's in here!

[katoplepa]

people are only capable of complaining, if you do white they want black, if you do black so maybe was better when it was white, guys you are incredible, sometimes I can't understand why you keep playing this game if you think it's so bad like you are tryin to say..

this update is GREAT and is following the line the game has taken, better they can't do now, Square done a very good job, enjoy it!

[Korpg]

Thread is called Idiocy,

and that's all that's in here!

You and me excluded though.

Of anything, us WARs should be complaining that we got nothing from this update, but then again, we really don't need anything (except a level 95 Ukon that doesn't involve 150 Glavoid shells or something of that magnitude).

[Bubeeky]

You and me excluded though.

Of anything, us WARs should be complaining that we got nothing from this update, but then again, we really don't need anything (except a level 95 Ukon that doesn't involve 150 Glavoid shells or something of that magnitude).

Na, don't do that Korpg...war are one of the few groups on these forums that don't muddy up their forums with QQing about everything they don't have lol

[user201108211515]

And people that complain about people that complain and then pretend they are the only 2 some how above all of this.. yet they posted to complain... Do you think before you speak in RL? So why dont you online? Why add to the negativity? Cauz 2 negatives make positive? Na that cant be it. Oh cauz 2 wrongs make things right.. noo that cant be it...

I'm stumped by the idiocy of you 2.. please do explain your reasoning.

But dont think I really care.

[Leonlionheart]

You and me excluded though.

Of anything, us WARs should be complaining that we got nothing from this update, but then again, we really don't need anything (except a level 95 Ukon that doesn't involve 150 Glavoid shells or something of that magnitude).

Indeed. MNK didn't get anything either, so why aren't they QQing?

People getting stuff, and seemingly great stuff (GUYS SCH GETS BLIZ V, STFU ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE YOU CAN FINALLY NUKE ON PAR/BETTER THAN BLM IN ABY), are the ones complaining.

[Leonlionheart]

And people that complain about people that complain and then pretend they are the only 2 some how above all of this.. yet they posted to complain... Do you think before you speak in RL? So why dont you online? Why add to the negativity? Cauz 2 negatives make positive? Na that cant be it. Oh cauz 2 wrongs make things right.. noo that cant be it...

I'm stumped by the idiocy of you 2.. please do explain your reasoning.

But dont think I really care.

two* are some how* elipses have three periods and you use them way too much, don't*, Because*, No*, because two*, I don't think*

Also, don't start sentences with but if you can help it. A tip from your friendly neighborhood grammar nazi~

[Saefinn]

Well SE wants feedback on how to make things better and there's the users to offer their opinions. It's not going to stop me playing my job, I still love it and enjoy playing it and I make myself useful and whilst people outside of my LS's don't want to invite my SCH, they do and they know my SCH is useful. -There are things that can be done that I think will make it better and would give people more reason to invite it into a party, I often get responses like, "Do you have a WHM or a BLM?". Some folk don't want to level WHM or BLM or whatever to play the game, but to play the game on jobs they enjoy playing. :P I refuse to levels jobs I don't enjoy playing, because I'm playing to have fun, not because I take it too seriously.

But obviously offering your own opinion and giving feedback is QQing. ;) Okay the thread was called 'Idiocy', which in my opinion is a little off (I don't think SE are idiots), but hey, it's a feedback thread nonetheless.

[Miera]

Indeed. MNK didn't get anything either, so why aren't they QQing?

People getting stuff, and seemingly great stuff (GUYS SCH GETS BLIZ V, STFU ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE YOU CAN FINALLY NUKE ON PAR/BETTER THAN BLM IN ABY), are the ones complaining.I have no problem about what SCH has gotten, I think the only Spells SCHs had ever complained about was Cure V and those really useless Animus Spells. other than that. I am pretty happy with my job,

I don't think the pet job community however are happy.

[Saefinn]

two* are some how* elipses have three periods and you use them way too much, don't*, Because*, No*, because two*, I don't think*

Also, don't start sentences with but if you can help it. A tip from your friendly neighborhood grammar nazi~

Not to try and pick a fight, but that's not exactly responding to his post. I see no point to grammar Nazism, the point of language is to communicate, demonstrating the ability to use formal English looks good in professional eyes - to loosely quote Stephen Fry, "your dress up your language just as you dress up yourself", but outside of formal situations as long as you're capable of understanding what a person is saying or what they have written, then does it really matter their their grammar is incorrect in the eyes of standardised language? I've read this guy's posted without struggling.

Though of course, I'd have no problem with you criticizing him for questioning your 'idiocy' as he puts it. :D No need to lay on the insults in a discussion, yet that's the direction people seem to like to take things...perhaps I shouldn't be posting in a thread entitled 'idiocy' it kind of sets the tone a bit...

[Saefinn]

I have no problem about what SCH has gotten, I think the only Spells SCHs had ever complained about was Cure V and those really useless Animus Spells. other than that. I am pretty happy with my job,

I don't think the pet job community however are happy.

Actually, I am pretty happy with my job, that's why I love it to pieces and play it 90% of the time, I was pleased that we get 2 more nukes. I'm just of the opinion SCH needs work on its exclusives and to be better at what its supposed to do. I don't want to compete with WHM or BLM, hence I'm a SCH and not a WHM or BLM. :P

[Leonlionheart]

There's nothing to say to that post honestly, he's complaining about us "complaining" about his complaining.

So I went another direction, complain about his grammar.

Honestly though, I didn't see Korpg's post as complaining but more as good advice. Mine was more satire, making fun of how the information in the entire thread is incredibly skewed.

[user201108211515]

I'll be the 1st to admit my grammer is bad. You can thank the publich education system for that.

Becides that I am a machinets by trade and a medican vendor by profession. Neither of wich require me to spell. Its all math.. The only language that matters.

Back to the point..

How can you complain

about people complaining

and then claim to be one of the only 2 people posting that isnt an idot.

Hell I'm feeln stupid for having even responded now.

Answer the question.. Pls justify how someone can do such things.

And since so many people have selecitve reading and love to avoid the question..

More and more I have to repete my self thx to selective readers....

How can you complain

about people complaining

and then claim to be one of the only 2 people posting that isnt an idot.

[Bubeeky]

I can't understand why sch and rdm are so stuck on cure V whm is tops on healing and that's how it should be...rdm and sch are hybrid mages which means they will never have the same ability as a specialized mage...if SE gave cure V to rdm and sch, we'd go right back to where we were at 75 where whm was forgotten and rdm and sch were only recruited to pt's as healers, unless the goal is to get recruited to pt's as a healer only to play with non-healer spells and then later complain that all you get asked to do is heal?

[user201108211515]

And you say my question is complaining.. And I have low understanding about the english language.. You cant tell the difference of a question and a complaint.

[Ank]

what it's actually useful for

So what do you say?

So I can tell myself over and over again as I go to sleep at night.

[user201108211515]

bubeeky has a very valid point.. So how bout a compromise.. cure 4.5

lol bubeeky.. One would think RDMs would be dancing in the streets to be off the hook on main curing.

[user201108211515]

You and me excluded though.

Of anything, us WARs should be complaining that we got nothing from this update, but then again, we really don't need anything (except a level 95 Ukon that doesn't involve 150 Glavoid shells or something of that magnitude).

OMG he said Of instead of If.. we should totally get the grammer police on it...

For the record kiddies.. nit picking gets you no where fast.

Have something to say with some meaning or why waste your time.

[Tagrineth]

SE should give RDM and SCH Cure V but take away one of its modifiers, so it heals a good 30% less HP, but with the reduced hate accrual. done.

[Ank]

I'd be okay with cure4.5 slap a latin name on it and call it a day.

[AyinDygra]

No Cure V for Sch and Rdm? This isn't a problem.

Rdm healing solution:
Spell: Cure Blade
Auto-attack strikes cure HP rather than inflict damage.
* Changes targeting to allow attacking party members.
* Auto-disengage when the effect wears off.

Scholar healing solution:
Faith (latin name version)
Target takes increased healing and damage from magical sources.
* Dangerous and tactical use.
* May increase healing by 50%, while damage is only +20% to be not quite as dangerous as it sounds.
* May add a little refresh to target (going by Embrava's implementation - sounds like FFXI's take on FFT's Brave), this can't be be another 2hr spell to fulfill this purpose.
* Makes Scholar a very nice addition to a tank party, even if they already have a White Mage whose cures would be even that much more powerful. (perhaps they'd already be at the cure potency cap, so this isn't such a big deal to them, if it functions under the cure potency cap limitations, rather than a new effect)

[Ank]

Not sure how usefull that is when its effectively only increasing curing by 30% and half the trouble is enmity.


It's interesting, though I still don't get the desire for unique gimmicks to justify curing power.

I actually wouldn't mind if sch or rdm went the opposite route to curing large numbers and gained some pretty powerful dmg mitigation abilities. Things like reflect, or elemental absorptions, or even stoneskin2.

[Leonlionheart]

A more powerful cure is w/e, I mean Cure IV is pretty much all you need outside of Abyssea.

damage mitigation on the other hand is much more interesting

[SpankWustler]

This thread has the most appropriate title ever.

So far...

Someone has made up the word "Brezerker". I assume this is a savage fighter who freshens the air as he rages on.

Someone implied that jug pets which can cost as little as 1,000 gil each are as expensive and extravagant as snorting Oberon's Bullets off the small of a Mithra's back.

A contingent is complaining about only having Cure IV, without any understanding of the reason only having Cure IV can be a problem.

A bunch of other stuff I can't even interpret because I don't speak whatever language it's written in. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's misinformed, though.

[Olor]

Na, don't do that Korpg...war are one of the few groups on these forums that don't muddy up their forums with QQing about everything they don't have lol

Well yeah, cause war gets invited to everything. Why would they complain? They are already OP.

[Olor]

Someone implied that jug pets which can cost as little as 1,000 gil each are as expensive and extravagant as snorting Oberon's Bullets off the small of a Mithra's back.


Oh yeah, so what, you're one of those buttersheep bsts that uses nothing but sheep for everything?

Guess what, the only way a bst ever has a chance of getting invites to anything worthwhile is if they are packing dipper and ghetto treasure hunter. At 10K-14K EACH, that is pretty damn pricey.

[Tiberius]

Absorb-Attri (DRK Lv. 91)
Steals an enemy's beneficial status effects.

Wonder what the recast timer on this will be? Probably less than 5 minutes...which will prove that the dev spokesman was full of chocobo crap when he said that Aurasteal on a separate timer would be overpowered.

[Quetzacoatl]

I stopped reading OP the first moment he said 2HRs are most often used in Abyssea.


No Cure V for Rdm?

Anyone who says this, or even asks for this for RDM, I have to say this to you:

You're all f%#@ing delusional for thinking this will fix RDM.

[Olor]

I stopped reading OP the first moment he said 2HRs are most often used in Abyssea.



Anyone who says this, or even asks for this for RDM, I have to say this to you:

You're all f%#@ing delusional for thinking this will fix RDM.

I guess giving addle to whm was the best way to fix RDM, amirite?

[Quetzacoatl]

I guess giving addle to whm was the best way to fix RDM, amirite?

Addle doesn't do much except making magic-casting mobs easier, but procing weakness on Abyssea NMs harder. Either way, You're always going to have a RDM and a WHM wherever it's necessary, so I don't mind it as much as other people seem to.

Sure, it's going to step on RDM's exclusivity a little bit, but I'm hopeful with the way SE adjusts Enfeebling, it may not be a gamechanger as people may think.

[ffxititanplayer]

A little late for me to make a post on this but its not about being a main healer or being on par with whm, though dancers can already heal for 900(ish) hp with their highest waltz (thats besides the point) Its about only being able to heal for 380 damage when the HP values are up into the thousands! That just doesnt cut it anymore when a a mage has 1300 outside of aby, why should 4 cure IVs be needed to full heal a mage?! so unless rdm gets cure V there will be much complaining to continue. Whm will still have cure VI and still be the best at healing, until other jobs get cure VI no job can take the place of WHM.

[Quetzacoatl]

A little late for me to make a post on this but its not about being a main healer or being on par with whm, though dancers can already heal for 900(ish) hp with their highest waltz (thats besides the point) Its about only being able to heal for 380 damage when the HP values are up into the thousands! That just doesnt cut it anymore when a a mage has 1300 outside of aby, why should 4 cure IVs be needed to full heal a mage?! so unless rdm gets cure V there will be much complaining to continue. Whm will still have cure VI and still be the best at healing, until other jobs get cure VI no job can take the place of WHM.

...let's put it this way:

Cure 6 to WHM is Cure 5 to RDM. It does WAY too much curing power outside abyssea to even be worth using. Also, why are you even using Cure 6 outside abyssea?

[Neisan_Quetz]

380 Cure 4? Stop casting cures naked.

[Quetzacoatl]

380 Cure 4? Stop casting cures naked.

That, too. Cure Potency gear [do you need it?]

[SpankWustler]

Oh yeah, so what, you're one of those buttersheep bsts that uses nothing but sheep for everything?

Guess what, the only way a bst ever has a chance of getting invites to anything worthwhile is if they are packing dipper and ghetto treasure hunter. At 10K-14K EACH, that is pretty damn pricey.

I wasn't as interested in laying out an argument as being flippant, given the general "content" of this topic. Basically, I just wanted to point out that every jug doesn't cost 100k a stack. Beyond that, the monsters produced by those jugs are actually better for pure damage than Dipper Yuly.

[ffxititanplayer]

I'm rdm i can't use it but you act like mistakes dont happen, links dont happen, sometimes things happen you cant expect and it would be nice to only have to use one cure spell isntead of 2 or 3 when i could instead cast cure V and then follow up with shadows or a nuke or stoneskin or whatnot. Just my opinion so yea! Cheers!

[Korpg]

OMG he said Of instead of If.. we should totally get the grammer police on it...

For the record kiddies.. nit picking gets you no where fast.

Have something to say with some meaning or why waste your time.

Actually, in this instance, the word "of" is appropriate, because I'm not referring to a possibility ("if"), but of an instance ("of"). Nice try though.

[Olor]

I wasn't as interested in laying out an argument as being flippant, given the general "content" of this topic. Basically, I just wanted to point out that every jug doesn't cost 100k a stack. Beyond that, the monsters produced by those jugs are actually better for pure damage than Dipper Yuly.

Yes, but no one invites a bst to anything worthwhile for pure damage. If they want pure damage they will invite a WAR who not only does more damage than BST but can PROC ... so, I don't see what your arguement is.

I promise -the only invites I've ever gotten to parties doing anything worthwhile as a bst is as ghetto treasure hunter when no THF was to be found. No one invites you on a seal run for damage. No one invites you to a big nm for damage. It is procs, heals, TH or go home.

[Korpg]

Yes, but no one invites a bst to anything worthwhile for pure damage. If they want pure damage they will invite a WAR who not only does more damage than BST but can PROC ... so, I don't see what your arguement is.

I promise -the only invites I've ever gotten to parties doing anything worthwhile as a bst is as ghetto treasure hunter when no THF was to be found. No one invites you on a seal run for damage. No one invites you to a big nm for damage. It is procs, heals, TH or go home.

Not really, you just stand there while waiting for the proc(s), then after the proc(s) you zerg it down.

If anything, you are just a placeholder for pop items.

[Ank]

My cure 4's on sch are like 480ish and my cure gear sucks terribly.

I agree that outside abyssea the amount cured isn't the biggest issue.

[SpankWustler]

A little late for me to make a post on this but its not about being a main healer or being on par with whm, though dancers can already heal for 900(ish) hp with their highest waltz (thats besides the point) Its about only being able to heal for 380 damage when the HP values are up into the thousands! That just doesnt cut it anymore when a a mage has 1300 outside of aby, why should 4 cure IVs be needed to full heal a mage?! so unless rdm gets cure V there will be much complaining to continue. Whm will still have cure VI and still be the best at healing, until other jobs get cure VI no job can take the place of WHM.

Cure VI is of niche use inside Abyssea because MP is unlimited there, and a terrible thing to cast outside.

If you want to beat your personal record for "Worst Cure IV Ever Cast!" I'd recommend equipping a Dark Obi and casting it in a dynamis zone on Darksday.

I'd like to see Red Mage and Scholar get Cure V, because it's always good to have multiple options for main healer, but I have no idea what some of you guys are thinking.

[Korpg]

My cure 4's on sch are like 480ish and my cure gear sucks terribly.

I agree that outside abyssea the amount cured isn't the biggest issue.

Wow, mine are about 600 HP inside Abyssea (forget outside, I very rarely go as WHM anymore) and I only have 15 items for WHM. No gear swaps at all, just cure potency and MND+. My healing magic skill is way under cap too (level 70~ for a WHM).

[Olor]

Not really, you just stand there while waiting for the proc(s), then after the proc(s) you zerg it down.

If anything, you are just a placeholder for pop items.

Yes, exactly. This is what I am saying.

So an ability which allows my uber expensive ladybug (which I am never allowed to melee with anyway except to put TH on) to "rage" and then disappear doesn't sound very useful to me.

[SpankWustler]

I promise -the only invites I've ever gotten to parties doing anything worthwhile as a bst is as ghetto treasure hunter when no THF was to be found. No one invites you on a seal run for damage. No one invites you to a big nm for damage. It is procs, heals, TH or go home.

While true enough, this doesn't sound like it relates to the new Beast Master job ability so much as FFXI and Abyssea in general.

Would you care to meet the 5,000 other people who play melee jobs and have complained about similar issues?

The solution boils down to "Do things in a circle of friends that doesn't mind one or two folks being on a job just to smack things." Not "Pretend you're surgically grafted to a ladybug." Pick-up groups have always been awful in every conceivable way, and FFXI should not be designed around them.

[Olor]

While true enough, this doesn't sound like it relates to the new Beast Master job ability so much as FFXI and Abyssea in general.

Would you care to meet the 5,000 other people who play melee jobs and have complained about similar issues?

The solution boils down to "Do things in a circle of friends that doesn't mind one or two folks being on a job just to smack things." Not "Pretend you're surgically grafted to a ladybug." Pick-up groups have always been awful in every conceivable way, and FFXI should not be designed around them.

Sure, but I don't think it helps for players not to raise these balance issues.

When development time is spent making an ability which at best, I won't use because it is too expensive instead of something which will make the job I like playing worth having along (not just out of pity/friendship) in a serious party - I feel like it is worthwhile to raise concerns.

[Ank]

Wow, mine are about 600 HP inside Abyssea (forget outside, I very rarely go as WHM anymore) and I only have 15 items for WHM. No gear swaps at all, just cure potency and MND+. My healing magic skill is way under cap too (level 70~ for a WHM).

Yeah but I've only got like a light staff and serpentes, too lazy to check atm. I don't really like curing on sch so been putting off surya's and obi.

700something with rapture which isn't too bad I guess, but doesn't compare to my friends whm I leveled and geared poorly lol.

[Leonlionheart]

Yes, exactly. This is what I am saying.

So an ability which allows my uber expensive ladybug (which I am never allowed to melee with anyway except to put TH on) to "rage" and then disappear doesn't sound very useful to me.

Maybe you don't understand what Zerg means

[Olor]

Maybe you don't understand what Zerg means

And what percentage of worthwhile content is done via zerg now? Cause I haven't seen any of it. Or are you suggesting I waste my ladybug to kill that procced NM 1 second faster?

Also, if you think this new JA is going to be so good - do you think it will make someone invite BST over a WAR? Will you be switching to BST because of this AWESOME NEW ABILITY?

[SpankWustler]

Sure, but I don't think it helps for players not to raise these balance issues.

When development time is spent making an ability which at best, I won't use because it is too expensive instead of something which will make the job I like playing worth having along (not just out of pity/friendship) in a serious party - I feel like it is worthwhile to raise concerns.

What if this new ability were viewed in the context of VoidWatch rather than Abyssea, though? Or some types of older content where Treasure Hunter and procs are both irrelevant? Or just with the assumption a Thief is present?

I don't think you're misjudging what the ability will do, given the scope is narrowed to "What will it do for Olorinus in Abyssea?" It's an ability rather than a trait, so I think it's important to keep in mind that using it is a choice and it doesn't have to be ideal for everything.

[Korpg]

And what percentage of worthwhile content is done via zerg now? Cause I haven't seen any of it. Or are you suggesting I waste my ladybug to kill that procced NM 1 second faster?

Also, if you think this new JA is going to be so good - do you think it will make someone invite BST over a WAR? Will you be switching to BST because of this AWESOME NEW ABILITY?

I don't think this was intended to be a job ability to invite BSTs for. I think this was a job ability to go "oh shi, Call Beast timer isn't up and my pet is about to die, and the NM is almost dead but it will rape me if I try to tank it." Which I'm sure it happens enough times to warrant this job ability. It could also be that this job ability will make soloing much faster, both inside and outside of Abyssea. Yeah, its costly, but since when has BST ever been a cheap job to level?

[Olor]

I don't think this was intended to be a job ability to invite BSTs for. I think this was a job ability to go "oh shi, Call Beast timer isn't up and my pet is about to die, and the NM is almost dead but it will rape me if I try to tank it." Which I'm sure it happens enough times to warrant this job ability. It could also be that this job ability will make soloing much faster, both inside and outside of Abyssea. Yeah, its costly, but since when has BST ever been a cheap job to level?

Okay, this is a good post.

I agree it could come in handy like that.

I guess I was just hoping when they said they were going to make BST something people would invite to a group that, you know, they would actually do it. Getting nothing but some more jugs (where is the love for charm) and an "oh shi-" ability is pretty dissapointing - especially seeing blm, which already has no trouble getting invites and is, frankly, kind of overpowered - get a whole swathe of new spells.

[Korpg]

It saves you from having to use a 2hr.

Since, you know, 2hrs don't work on your called pets.

[Olor]

It saves you from having to use a 2hr.

Since, you know, 2hrs don't work on your called pets.

oh it works... it gives it 10 per cent more HP...

but it doesn't fill that 10 per cent...lol

[Quetzacoatl]

I'm rdm i can't use it but you act like mistakes dont happen, links dont happen, sometimes things happen you cant expect and it would be nice to only have to use one cure spell isntead of 2 or 3 when i could instead cast cure V and then follow up with shadows or a nuke or stoneskin or whatnot. Just my opinion so yea! Cheers!

If anything like that is happening, you're obviously doing something wrong, then. That's just my opinion though, yeah?

Don't hurt yourself thinking too hard about that.

[Alaik]

oh it works... it gives it 10 per cent more HP...

but it doesn't fill that 10 per cent...lol

I'm surprised it didn't give an additional 100% HP and that pets don't blood aggro. I actually expected that years ago before I knew anything about BST, just given how much lol SE threw at them.

[Monchat]

I didn't see anyone qq about whm so I'll do it. yay more useless cure spells, curaga V... curaga IV was not good enough I guess. I wanted banish IV and banishga III too.

@ people complaining about RDM: imo pb with rdm is not cure V. I barely use cure V on WHM outside of abyssea, really its overkill. A monk ( highest HP job) has about 1800HP. for cure V to cure for max he needs to drop below 700 hp. i just use cure IVs ( for 600 ish) and cure V in emergency, never cure VI. I only use curega IV to full cure a pt after a wipe. so yeah rdm is just fine with his 500+ cure 5s imo. What they need to do is bring mobs on which enfeebles are usefull, and don't completly resist. Thats where RDM shine.

QQ about monk not getting anything ( just kidding). We all know mnk still going to rock w/o new JAs because they'll still get + skill that increase DMG, attack and accuracy, and possibly new job traits ( they mentinooned subtle blow kindof aby/traits/merits).

Yes we all know JAs and spells are not everything. New job traits will probably be introduced, and we will all get plenty of new powerful equipments to fill the gaps.

so, just wait and see. wait to actually play the update before QQ rage.

[Rearden]

What exactly do you fight that Cure IV is both more MP efficient and enmity efficient than Cure V?

AF1 Mobs? I'm confused. Even Ochain/Aegis PLD's take more damage than that during spells/TP moves.

[Zatias]

Meh, I'm sick of people saying RDM and SCH shouldn't get Cure V. Scared for their overpowered WHMs.

I'm a WHM too and I see no problem with Cure V going to these jobs. They still wont outcure a WHM with all the cure potency, cure casting time down, and cureskin that it gets.

RDM and SCH will never replace a WHM completely, but with Cure V we will be a comfortable substitute when the WHM is out of mp or otherwise incapacitated, and this is support in the true sense.

We got Cure IV in the 40s and it's still our highest tier cure. Any job can sub WHM and get this tier, which is sad.

[DebbieGibson]

Yeah it won't put out whms if rdm and sch get cure 5, I was saying this earlier, there's too many other reasons to take a whm.

[Leonlionheart]

I agree for sure that SCH and RDM should both get some form of a higher cure, whether it's a unique spell or simply Cure V

Personally I like WoW's Druid's method of healing (inb4 DONT MAKE THIS GAME WOW), where it's just a large amount of Healing over Time, but not drawn out like Regen (90 seconds) but more like 1/3 of Cure V's potency over 6 seconds.

This method doesn't help the OSHI situations, but does lighten the load on the WHM, and brings a certain aspect of uniqueness to SCH and RDM's healing capabilities.

*Example: "Restore" Restores HP over a short period of time. Cooldown: 30 seconds (Will end up being around 15 w/ fast cast/light arts pimped) MP cost: 120, Duration: 9 seconds (3 ticks) restores 120(Minimum cap)~320(Maximum cap) HP per tick.

[Malamasala]

Meh, I'm sick of people saying RDM and SCH shouldn't get Cure V. Scared for their overpowered WHMs.

What did you expect? People thought convert from subjob would break the game. It is simply idiocy and fits right in here.

[SpankWustler]

Yeah it won't put out whms if rdm and sch get cure 5, I was saying this earlier, there's too many other reasons to take a whm.

The thing that really scares me is that most of the people who argue against this sentiment are White Mages. I can't imagine what they're doing or not doing. While I'm on White Mage, my thoughts could be summarized as, "Hark! I am a God of restoring HP and removing status ailments! Come unto me and be healed, all ye who hit things with things!"

No other job is ever going to add 300+ HP of Stoneskin with Cure V, or have the ability to drop massive cures on more than one person in rapid succession. This isn't even getting into how amazing Esuna can be when the situation is right for it, or the other huge defensive benefits a White Mage provides.

Edit: I want to add that some stuff in this thread is so weird that it just made a dude who exists solely to ask for Summoner buffs to say something not related to Summoner, and for me to agree with him. This thread is bending reality itself through sheer lunacy.

[Saefinn]

Who knows...SE might bring out a job trait or some gear that'll make Cure IV sexy.

[Leonlionheart]

Not to mention they already have a 27% MDT spell, and are getting an additional AoE MDB JA... OH and very potent Bar-spells when they are used correctly.

Say goodbye to the need for MDT gear

[Ank]

Yeah I have no idea what whm's have to be bothered about, they're pretty amazing.

A cure dot spell could be a nice tool but it would have to be at least that strong, regen's just not doing much.

[Olor]

We got Cure IV in the 40s and it's still our highest tier cure. Any job can sub WHM and get this tier, which is sad.

Yeah it is pretty mad that my bst/whm has the same tier of cure as a rdm or a sch. Anyone who doesn't see the problem with that is blind.

[Leonlionheart]

Regen's not bad, but only because it lasts as long as it does.

I think the maximum duration is 1 minute 45 seconds? and can get up to 39hp/tick?

That's 1396 HP total cured, for a small amount of MP compared to Cure VI.

The real drawback is the stupid casting time, where it should be a quick cast spell, it takes like 3 seconds to cast so your party is dead by the time it's done...

[Raksha]

Wow, mine are about 600 HP inside Abyssea (forget outside, I very rarely go as WHM anymore) and I only have 15 items for WHM. No gear swaps at all, just cure potency and MND+. My healing magic skill is way under cap too (level 70~ for a WHM).

WHM can cap cure potecny, SCH can't.



@ people complaining about RDM: imo pb with rdm is not cure V. I barely use cure V on WHM outside of abyssea, really its overkill. A monk ( highest HP job) has about 1800HP. for cure V to cure for max he needs to drop below 700 hp. i just use cure IVs ( for 600 ish) and cure V in emergency, never cure VI.

Yeah that 'emergency' bit is kind of the important part.

[SpankWustler]

I think the maximum duration is 1 minute 45 seconds? and can get up to 39hp/tick?

Regen IV is 39 HP a tick for 75 seconds; assuming the White Mage has regen merits, Cleric's Briault, and Orison Mitts +2.

Regen has not fared well at all recently, with Cure Potency and MP regeneration both sky-rocketing. Which is a shame, since I really liked the line of spells.

[Leonlionheart]

In that case it's 975 HP, which is comparable to a (decent) Cure V, except over time.

Still not horrible, though I wouldn't merit Regen instead of bar potency because of it...

[Ank]

Actually sch could probably get a decent amount out of regen if perpetuance stacks with it, not sure if it does atm. Still stuck with a 5 second cast time and slow cure over that period of time.

[Zatias]

Regen used to be incredibly useful due to the low mp cost relative to how much HP total it restored.

Now it's just a waste of casting time ; ;

But that's already been said. Just seconding it ;P

Restore is a good idea, don't know if the "ticks" should or would be helix-type ticks (10 seconds between each tick of regen) for a greater amount (~500) for 3 ticks.

[Raksha]

Actually sch could probably get a decent amount out of regen if perpetuance stacks with it, not sure if it does atm. Still stuck with a 5 second cast time and slow cure over that period of time.

Perpetuance does stack with regen, but trust me: You have many many better things to use perpetuance on than regen.

[Korpg]

Not to mention they already have a 27% MDT spell, and are getting an additional AoE MDB JA... OH and very potent Bar-spells when they are used correctly.

Say goodbye to the need for MDT gear

Unless there is a hard cap on the amount of magic damage that can be reduced by all forms of spells/gear/abilities, there won't ever be a need to drop MDT gear (or at least, stack on more MDB)

[Quetzacoatl]

What did you expect? People thought convert from subjob would break the game. It is simply idiocy and fits right in here.

You're missing the issue- for RDMS it would be overpowering in a solo situation and cure 5 will all RDM would ever be used for.

[Sparthos]

RDM and SCH needs Plenilune Embrace strength cure that comes rolled in with a regen effect based on Enhancing skill.

[Korpg]

RDM and SCH needs Plenilune Embrace strength with a /WHM subjob cure that comes rolled in with a regen effect based on Enhancing skill.

Fixed that for you.

[Quetzacoatl]

Why /WHM sub? >_O

I feel it's very MP inefficient in comparison to /SCH Light Arts unless you need Stona/Viruna etc.

Perhaps it's also because it's my least favorite subjob. *shrug*


RDM and SCH needs Plenilune Embrace strength cure that comes rolled in with a regen effect based on Enhancing skill.
I was actually thinking of something like this earlier, neat of you to mention that.

[Korpg]

Why /WHM sub? >_O

I feel it's very MP inefficient in comparison to /SCH Light Arts unless you need Stona/Viruna etc.

Perhaps it's also because it's my least favorite subjob. *shrug*

Yeah, forgot about Light Arts and putting B skill on Healing magic.

[Ahrana]

Part of me would love to have a unique way of healing or mitigation for red mages and scholar, but then I look at the unique spells SE has given scholar since 75. Rather have boring that works than useless.

[Leonlionheart]

I /SCH on every mage job (except SMN) simply because of the MP cost - on "arts"

I see /RDM WHMs run out of MP much faster than I do on /SCH

[Zatias]

I prefer rdm sub just because I don't have to use job abilities to gain access to dispel.

To keep dispel available I have to keep Addendum: Black on, which means I can't switch back to Light Arts without losing it, and Dark Arts increases casting time and MP cost on my cures.

This is for my lowman stuff though. If someone else has dispel I use /sch.

[Atomic_Skull]

Poor THF. That's all I need to say for that.

Poor nothing. THF has the most useful sought after job trait in the entire game guaranteeing them a spot in every event. THF is a support job not a heavy DD. You can't expect to have one of, if not THE best job trait in the game *and* be able to do comparable damage to melee jobs at the same time. It would be unbalanced. (http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/7476/agentsmith.jpg)

[Rosina]

I realy wish people would stop talking like they speak for the player base.

I play the game and have fun just fine, and I'm not leet. You do not need to have a leet puppet to be strong. You just need to know how to use the attachments skilfully. In a qufim party back in feb. My tank puppet out tanked a pld. (granted she was being lazy) I just had basic attachments. and my pup tanked fine. barely needed to use oils.

anyway I think most ppl here lost the understanding of the term "video game" and "fun" as well as "being the same is boring as heck"

:)

Night guys.

[user201108211515]

that mask is sick

[Lojinxx]

what a bunch of whiney bitches.

[Neonii]

Seem, I'm no proponent of complainers and whiners -- more often enough I go against people begging for things for jobs....

But then, there's this blaring issue of SE designing the game in a direction that alienates jobs and trying to say "oh, the next bit of content is good for you."

No, every piece of content should be accessible to all jobs. Its nice to have the option to level up multiple jobs, but when you turn that into a demand it becomes ridiculous.

Puppetmaster, when it first came out, was one of the most appealing and amazing sounds jobs in FFXI to me. You got a stagnant pet that you could upgrade and customize -- it was like Summoner without the perpetuation cost and Beastmaster with more ownership of the actual pet.

And since, it has been nothing but a disappointment. Anytime Puppetmaster caught a break, it was patched out as a glitch, and there hasn't been a single event where Puppetmaster was the preferred job. (I guess for a while Salvage was one, but even that wasn't a huge deal.)

Scholar was haphazardly handled and treated like it was going to be some kind of wholly special and unique mage class, then they turned it into a hyper complicated version of Red Mage and billed it like it was the nuking side of Red Mage's melee --- even though they've gone out of their way to keep Red Mages melee from being the preferred play style. So you end up with a thrown together excuse for a mage job with a joke role of "versatile mage" and nothing to offer on either side of its proposed abilities. If you've got electrical problems, are you going to call the general repairman who might be able to help, or the Master Electrician who can probably tell you exactly what's wrong over the phone? I think its pretty obvious.

And I agree with people when they say Scholar shouldn't be able to outnuke Black Mage or outcure White Mage -- they, in FFXI light, should be completely different from that. There are so many design options, and yet in lieu of any that could have worked to make Scholar a job you want to find to invite ALONG SIDE a Black Mage or White Mage -- we ended up here, in a world specifically designed to where its either White Mage, Black Mage, or bust.

And the list goes on across other jobs with regard to the blaring and ridiculous balance issues that should have been resolved years ago and just managed to get worse with the creation of Abyssea.

The update looks interesting and fun on the surface, but only when coming from the point of view of one of the jobs that isn't painfully unusable in 70-90% of the most active content. For those of us playing jobs with major issues, say Paladin, Dragoon, Puppetmaster, Scholar... its just another slap in the face. I don't see what's wrong, frankly, with wanting to be able to actually go to events and PLAY THE GAME on a job you actually like to play, as opposed to having to toss gear around anytime someone's doing an event so you can swap to a job you only have leveled because no one wants your main. And fine, the game's moving away from Abyssea -- but I can guarantee you, at this rate, the odds of me being able to do anything that comes out for level 96-99 with PUP are slim to none. And that, quite simply, is stupid.

I so agree with general direction of both of these post. Here is what I propose, maybe the game designers should spend the next month or so playing the character they design in real time, on real servers, with real players and then make adjustments based on their observations. I would love for the head summoner to spend time actually playing one from a players point of view. The thing I loved about my last online game is that in any given situation most jobs if not all jobs could find a niche. Its also the thing I miss most about that game that and the sense of community. Oh well all good things come to an end.

Anyway back to topic I wish my fellow players would join me and ask the developers to take time to actually play in real time. Thing is they need to play the character they design so they can really understand what they are designing. On that last online game the developers used to (insert your favorite word) to the characters and spend quality time discussing them with the players. They had a whole section dedicated to class balance when they did class balance. The developer himself/herself would propose a change then ask the players to discuss. They would read the discussion and the developer personally would have the conversation with the players. S.E. maybe could take some hints from those folks.

[DebbieGibson]

I /SCH on every mage job (except SMN) simply because of the MP cost - on "arts"

I see /RDM WHMs run out of MP much faster than I do on /SCH

Weird.


Poor nothing. THF has the most useful sought after job trait in the entire game guaranteeing them a spot in every event. THF is a support job not a heavy DD. You can't expect to have one of, if not THE best job trait in the game *and* be able to do comparable damage to melee jobs at the same time. It would be unbalanced. (http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/7476/agentsmith.jpg)

A subbed thf is possibly just as potent as thf main for th purposes.

[Alaik]

Poor nothing. THF has the most useful sought after job trait in the entire game guaranteeing them a spot in every event. THF is a support job not a heavy DD. You can't expect to have one of, if not THE best job trait in the game *and* be able to do comparable damage to melee jobs at the same time. It would be unbalanced. (http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/7476/agentsmith.jpg)

Obvious troll is obvious.

[Vortex]

I /SCH on every mage job (except SMN) simply because of the MP cost - on "arts"

I see /RDM WHMs run out of MP much faster than I do on /SCH

This is something i'v been trying to beat into every whms head but swear "well refresh convert etc etc etc" none of them seem to realize you run out of MP faster with shitty rdm sub because every spell you cast is getting the FULL MP cost..

but i gave up on fighting abyssea breed whms, so w/e

[Soranika]

I mostly still sub /rdm on WHM for fast cast trait and refresh on other mages in same party... as well for dispel when needed. Rest of the gear I wear mitigates cost of MP, especially orison +2 pants. So.... yeah.

[Vortex]

I mostly still sub /rdm on WHM for fast cast trait and refresh on other mages in same party... as well for dispel when needed. Rest of the gear I wear mitigates cost of MP, especially orison +2 pants. So.... yeah.

Sigh..... let's see where do i start...

Light arts has an inate fast cast attached to it...tho it isn't as strong as fast cast from rdm it is still considirable enough to use over /rdm because it's a very minor diffrence.

/sch already has dispel..you just need to use dark arts and black addendem, free dispel is the only good thing about /rdm but in all honesty, that should not be your priority as whm outside procing yellow in abyssea.

refresh on others? if a party needs refresh that badly they can get a rdm or hell, even get a blm/rdm to do it. that is not a valid excuse for /rdm if a blm in the party they can usually refresh them selves, pld? lol won't even get into that.

need i go on? seriously, it sucks. you depend entirly on refresh because you are running out of mp TO fast. i don't want to get into this with another whm again..try the 2 one day extensivly, and see which one is truely better.

Orison pants +2 in no way makes up the 10% Mp cost reduction light arts gives to ALL spells....

if you still have trouble figuring it out the primary reason /sch beats any other sub is because of that 10% recution on TOP of the conserve Mp trait /sch has. as well as sublimation /rdm can not come close to that to a good whm, even with the false hope convert.

[DebbieGibson]

I use /rdm for vert and refresh. Its undeniably stronger than llight arts MP savings.

[Vortex]

I use /rdm for vert and refresh. Its undeniably stronger than llight arts MP savings.


Well i know you are trolling, nm.

[MarkovChain]

Do you factor in the fact that whm/rdm has a mp pool at leasr twice higher than whm/sch due to convert¿

[Vortex]

Do you factor in the fact that whm/rdm has a mp pool at leasr twice higher than whm/sch due to convert¿

Do you realize that whm/rdm runs out much faster due to everythign costing full? it may "look" like they have twice the pool but they go through as fast as just having one. the time it takes in the same situation that a whm/rdm runs out of mp, converts and runs out again, a proper whm/sch will still have over half mp, i have both subs and have played around with both. /sch wins, hands down, not discussing this crap again. i don't expect people know how to use WHM properly. hence my statment eariler that if you don't see the disadvantages of /rdm you won't ever.

[Soranika]

Points well taken. I won't argue with which subjob is better. I've never had any particular inefficiency issues with MP because of subbing /rdm either, even when having to bomb Cure V with not time to recoup spent MP.

Also MM atma isn't enough for BLM in Abyssea so supplementing refresh for them is a huge help.

[Vortex]

Points well taken. I won't argue with which subjob is better. I've never had any particular inefficiency issues with MP because of subbing /rdm either, even when having to bomb Cure V with not time to recoup spent MP.

Also MM atma isn't enough for BLM in Abyssea so supplementing refresh for them is a huge help.

In abyssea you can pretty much get away with any sub. it's outside is where you see the biggest diffrence, some fights however, can be very draining. try curing a MNK/WAR vs empousa or indrik for example..

BLm can refresh them selves, unless they are subbing whm for some odd, dumb reason outside procing.

[DebbieGibson]

I did the math on this at 75 comparing rdm and whm/sch. I do not see how it could have changed since.

[Vortex]

I did the math on this at 75 comparing rdm and whm/sch. I do not see how it could have changed since.

oh wow, really, 75, cause you know new gear was never added, and stats/ mp never increased. yes it is EXACLTY the same at 75.

pssst it was better at 75 to.

you're a funny troll.

[MarkovChain]

Do you realize that whm/rdm runs out much faster due to everythign costing full? it may "look" like they have twice the pool but they go through as fast as just having one. the time it takes in the same situation that a whm/rdm runs out of mp, converts and runs out again, a proper whm/sch will still have over half mp, i have both subs and have played around with both. /sch wins, hands down, not discussing this crap again. i don't expect people know how to use WHM properly. hence my statment eariler that if you don't see the disadvantages of /rdm you won't ever.

Facepalm.jpg

[Soranika]

In abyssea you can pretty much get away with any sub. it's outside is where you see the biggest diffrence, some fights however, can be very draining. try curing a MNK/WAR vs empousa or indrik for example..

BLm can refresh them selves, unless they are subbing whm for some odd, dumb reason outside procing.
Rarely do I WHM outside of abyssea (SMN main job here) but I do for certain actives, but considering my LS events always have at least two WHM (one dedicated healer for tank, others take care of other frontline), making sure to /heal appropriately between healing and buffing made sure I never fell under 70% MP. 50% during fights with NMs spamming TP moves.

Outside abyssea, there's no need to use Cure V unless in a dire situation so Cure III and IV, when used correctly, isn't as draining on the MP as one thinks. (I guess cure potency gear helps too so you're not spamming them back to back)

[Ank]

Light arts also applies its bonus equally to both recast and cast time.

[Leonlionheart]

The only way any WHM should be subbing something other than SCH, is if they need Stun.

[DebbieGibson]

oh wow, really, 75, cause you know new gear was never added, and stats/ mp never increased. yes it is EXACLTY the same at 75.

pssst it was better at 75 to.

you're a funny troll.

Higher MP pools and new gear strengthens rdm more than whm/sch. So by extension whm/rdm should be better now than whm/sch when it comes to mp unless something groundbreaking has happened to sch sub since 75 cap.

[Vortex]

Higher MP pools and new gear strengthens rdm more than whm/sch. So by extension whm/rdm should be better now than whm/sch when it comes to mp unless something groundbreaking has happened to sch sub since 75 cap.


Sorry but you ran out of funny material already, you can stop trolling now, it's not working anymore ;/

[DebbieGibson]

Do the math on it and you will see. It's the very reason why rdm was better in merits than whm. Vert and refresh are just too strong.

[Leonlionheart]

Higher MP pools and new gear strengthens rdm more than whm/sch. So by extension whm/rdm should be better now than whm/sch when it comes to mp unless something groundbreaking has happened to sch sub since 75 cap.

lol what? MP pool is like the most useless thing ever, other than in initial idle gear if you're that hardcore. Gear? What? WHM can't use RDM gear you know.

Look at it this way: Light Arts saves you 22 MP per Cure VI, and 13 MP per Cure V. If Refresh nets you that much MP when you have to spam those spells, then I'll be a monkey's uncle. Honestly, I don't think that Convert every 10 minutes will net you that much MP either. Not that it matters when you have Sublimation which is a good 350mp, and 3~7 refresh in gear.

[Vortex]

lol what? MP pool is like the most useless thing ever, other than in initial idle gear if you're that hardcore. Gear? What? WHM can't use RDM gear you know.

Look at it this way: Light Arts saves you 22 MP per Cure VI, and 13 MP per Cure V. If Refresh nets you that much MP when you have to spam those spells, then I'll be a monkey's uncle. Honestly, I don't think that Convert every 10 minutes will net you that much MP either. Not that it matters when you have Sublimation which is a good 350mp, and 3~7 refresh in gear.

He's trolling lion, lol don't fall into the trap! (or he could very well be that stupid) but either way. not worth it lol.

[DebbieGibson]

Higher MP pools means vert is stronger. A good vert set at 90 is equivalent to 7mp/tic. Refresh is 2.2mp/tic. Did sch sub get an extra point of MP /tic from sublimation since 75?

I can do the math on it and find out for sure when I get home. But I suspect /rdm is far superior.

[Monchat]

oh wow, really, 75, cause you know new gear was never added, and stats/ mp never increased. yes it is EXACLTY the same at 75.

pssst it was better at 75 to.

you're a funny troll.

By the way if you don't aggree with vortex you are trolling. And if you keep argueing he doesn't know what to say.

Seriously... the situation is not the same since you have convert unlike previosuly at 75. Why do you keep ignoring convert.


lol what? MP pool is like the most useless thing ever, other than in initial idle gear if you're that hardcore. Gear? What? WHM can't use RDM gear you know.

Look at it this way: Light Arts saves you 22 MP per Cure VI, and 13 MP per Cure V. If Refresh nets you that much MP when you have to spam those spells, then I'll be a monkey's uncle. Honestly, I don't think that Convert every 10 minutes will net you that much MP either. Not that it matters when you have Sublimation which is a good 350mp, and 3~7 refresh in gear.

two things. first if MP is irrelevant why are we having this discussion? nobody cares about SJ in abyssea you have infinite MP. I almost never use convert in abyssea either so i could be SJ less and be fine.

Now in situations where you will easilly run out of MP... its still hard to imagine that you will run out of Mp with the amounts of MP regeneration that exists [6 autorfresh gear very easy to get, AF3 legs, refresh2, ballads or cor rolls....].

But imagine you are curebombing without serious MP regeneration. Both will do what? 15 cure Vs max? SCH will save you 200MP, but the whm/rdm has 1200 more mp to use. Then your argument just become useless, as its obvious that /sch will run out early, due to having twice less MP. unless you find me a mysterious ability that reduces cure cost by 50% constantly from sch?


In abyssea you can pretty much get away with any sub. it's outside is where you see the biggest diffrence, some fights however, can be very draining. try curing a MNK/WAR vs empousa or indrik for example..

BLm can refresh them selves, unless they are subbing whm for some odd, dumb reason outside procing.

In abbysea sj doesn't matter, yes, yet you give an example inside abbyssea. By the way, empousa, seriously? Are you kidding me? What is hard about that mob? And indrik? You cannot cure a MNK/WAR solo as WHM/RDM?

You have to be trolling, I don't know what to say.

[DebbieGibson]

Funny thing is is sch sub is most efficient in comparison to rdm sub when it's spamming cures but that's the same situation where vert will crush it.

[Zatias]

Wow this thread just attracts all kinds of <thread name>.

[Vortex]

By the way if you don't aggree with vortex you are trolling. And if you keep argueing he doesn't know what to say.

Seriously... the situation is not the same since you have convert unlike previosuly at 75. Why do you keep ignoring convert.

Yes that is EXACLTY what i'm doing, now, ignoring your idiodic comment i didn't respond to him becaus eit's obvious he's trolling unless he is incredibly retarded. Convert means shit, i even explained that already read the damn posts, the redcuded Mp cost from light arts + Conserve Mp trait, +sublimation ( i guess you forgot that? the irony..) will outweigh that convert and here is the biggest kicker... convert is a 10 minute recast. you're up shit hill if it runs out during that cool down where as /sch will keep on kicking. but a proper whm/sch will not have Mp issues.

I'm not ignoring convert, it simply just dosn't matter since i have been thru this same argument/debate with every whm/rdm who thinks since they burned it to 90 or play it once a year they "know better" /rdm does not compete..not sure how many ways i can beat it into people's head but this is the curse of the player base. take it for what you will.






two things. first if MP is irrelevant why are we having this discussion? nobody cares about SJ in abyssea you have infinite MP. I almost never use convert in abyssea either so i could be SJ less and be fine.
Again, you didn't read any other post did you? i already explained this. sub matters very little in abyssea, but SOME fights you WILL run into issues. (there is that read again)


Now in situations where you will easilly run out of MP... its still hard to imagine that you will run out of Mp with the amounts of MP regeneration that exists [6 autorfresh gear very easy to get, AF3 legs, refresh2, ballads or cor rolls....].

Af3 legs do not have refresh.......if you are refering to that converts mp cost to cure that is bascily a conserve Mp for cures...but very minimal, and often unoticable. it is ironicly in fact what are trying to acheive if you simply...sub sch in the 1st place..

you won't always have the luxery of a brd and cor in the same party all the time. and as /rdm you most defiantly will need both to keep up MP in difficult fights.


But imagine you are curebombing without serious MP regeneration. Both will do what? 15 cure Vs max? SCH will save you 200MP, but the whm/rdm has 1200 more mp to use. Then your argument just become useless, as its obvious that /sch will run out early, due to having twice less MP. unless you find me a mysterious ability that reduces cure cost by 50% constantly from sch?

You defaintly have no idea how to properly use WHM, if you think it is a "200 mp" diffrence. this was a very dumb response if you don't understand the combined value of Mp being saved over time of EVERY spell you cast under light arts. i have whmed for the last 5 years and have had my share of many cure bombed fights and have came out just fine. the ONLY close call i EVER had with MP was when i was curing a MNK/NIN on indrik who had no PDT set or was to busy wasting time with shadows and that is because i didn't have time to sublimation due to constant cure bombing, the amount of Mp i spent a /rdm would have ran dry a long time ago. and i didn't even run out of mp i got down to 300 mp before he finnaly got one shotted. and if he hadn't sucked would have actually killed it because it was at 10% when he died /rdm will NEVER be able to keep up with what i went through that day.




In abbysea sj doesn't matter, yes, yet you give an example inside abbyssea. By the way, empousa, seriously? Are you kidding me? What is hard about that mob? And indrik? You cannot cure a MNK/WAR solo as WHM/RDM?

it's abyssea... (you're lack of reading skills again), i didnt say i couldnt cure one as whm/rdm but since it is an inferior sub to /sch i never had a reason to use it. i don't even go below 1k mp when solo healing a mnk on empousa. try again.


You have to be trolling, I don't know what to say.

Trolling and speaking facts are 2 diffrent things. you must be trolling if you want to put it that way.

[Olor]

BLm can refresh them selves, unless they are subbing whm for some odd, dumb reason outside procing.

Do blm sub anything but brd in abyssea? more refresh is good for blm.

[ShadowHeart]

wasnt there supposed to be a remove charm spell given to whm stated last month or so?

[Raksha]

Did sch sub get an extra point of MP /tic from sublimation since 75?


It did, actually.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Sublimation

[Zatias]

There is supposed to be a remove charm spell for WHM, they didn't say when they were implementing it though.

[Vortex]

Funny thing is is sch sub is most efficient in comparison to rdm sub when it's spamming cures but that's the same situation where vert will crush it.

Wow, i am starting to think you are actually serious. Thread name definatily spoke truth, i am certainly done with this.

I think the main thing i didn't mention for /sch users is you have to actually be smart using it. and have actual knowledge of how sch works in the 1st place, to much to ask i guess.

[Leonlionheart]

Higher MP pools means vert is stronger. A good vert set at 90 is equivalent to 7mp/tic. Refresh is 2.2mp/tic. Did sch sub get an extra point of MP /tic from sublimation since 75?

I can do the math on it and find out for sure when I get home. But I suspect /rdm is far superior.

Still not even close to the MP you save from /SCH. /RDM is seriously stupid.

@Monchat You can still run out of MP on hard fights in Abyssea, or if you're the only WHM for an Alliance that feels they need to engage.

[Zatias]

Like I said rdm sub is useful for lowmanning certain NMs. Switching between Arts can be annoying and even get someone killed.

I'm not saying it's better than sch sub. I'm saying in that situation I rather have dispel available 100% of the time. I'm also yet to run dry on MP even as /rdm >.>

Also: let noobs melee and die. It will help them learn XD

[Soranika]

The argument still doesn't compel me to sub SCH. To each is their own. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how much MP you 'save' with what subjob, but how effective you are playing within the limits of your ability. You can sub rdm or sch and STILL fail at what your job really is, WHM, if you spamming like an idiot, not prioritizing your spell and lacking knowledge of what life threatening abilities the monster your fighting has.

[DebbieGibson]

It did, actually.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Sublimation

Thank you that makes a difference albiet small...

As for /sch and /rdm:

/sch will have 17% less mp drain than /rdm will

let's give /rdm 15mp/tic over time with a 1450hp/mp vert set and perfect refresh use. (9+6 in autorefresh)

/sch will, being generous, give 9mp/tic over time with perfect sublimation use.(3+6 autorefresh) Let's add perfect penury usage on cure 5 in here(unlikely, but w/e) for 1 more mp/tic so 10mp/tic.

So first of all, in any situation where the drain on your mp is less than 10mp/tic the sub does not matter for mp purposes. In any situation where the drain on your mp is >10mp and less than 15mp/tic obviously rdm is superior for mp purposes.

As you increase the mp drain past 15mp/tic sch will approach rdm in efficiency, however, this will not happen until you have already surpassed the ability of the whm to sustain itself alone. Both subs will be losing 10mp/tic when you have a 25mp/tic drain on your mp pool. Higher than this, /sch will be more mp efficient, however if you are continuously healing, both jobs are doomed to run out of mp. So in this case you need outside refresh, at least 10mp/tic in order to stay afloat, where both subs are equal. If you need more outside refresh than 10mp/tic then /sch pulls ahead. But you must also consider the case where you have a mob that is going to die fast, or somewhat fast, and in that case, I don't know which is better, someone else do that math. I will let this post only be about continuous fighting and MP usage.(despite how unrealistic that may be)

If you have something to aspir then it is different, and many times you can sleep an mp battery mob off to the side if you want just to have for /sch. Let's say you can pull 150mp/70 seconds with aspir, that's an extra 6.4mp/tic and puts /sch ahead of /rdm by a decent chunk.


Basically, if you're solo healing outside abyssea with no source of aspir, /rdm.(admittedly rare)
If you have refresh atma(most likely the source of the change in attitude from convert>all), or a source of aspir, or gjallarhorn ballads, then /sch.

So the question becomes, do all voidwatch mobs have mp?

[DebbieGibson]

Still not even close to the MP you save from /SCH. /RDM is seriously stupid.

Wrong sir, please sea my post above. The only reason /sch works is because of aspir or atma. Without those /rdm is more efficient. So make your decision based on area and mobs.

[Zatias]

Sch sub also gives Conserve MP.

[DebbieGibson]

Sch sub also gives Conserve MP.

I counted that

Despite /sch improving due to minikin monstrosity, I will still most likely use /rdm just because it's easier to dualbox than having to pop all those JA all the time. In abyssea on whm main however, it's /sch all the way.

[Raksha]

let's give /rdm 15mp/tic over time with a 1450hp/mp vert set and perfect refresh use. (9+6 in autorefresh)


I have to be reading this incorrectly. Are you saying WHM/RDM gets 15mp/tic with refresh1 and gear?

EDIT: Oh, are you factoring in convert?

[Zatias]

Apologies. I get lost in walls of text ; ;

[SpankWustler]

Thanks for posting some numbers. It's less than shocking that, like everything else in FFXI, the choice is situational.

Would taking the effects of Orison Pantaloons +2 into account have a more significant effect on one sub than the other, I wonder?

I think it's worth noting that both jobs have different benefits beyond MP longevity, also. Especially given that "benefits other than MP longevity" is generally the deciding factor of what a White Mage subs inside Abyssea.

[DebbieGibson]

I have to be reading this incorrectly. Are you saying WHM/RDM gets 15mp/tic with refresh1 and gear?

Convert is worth 7.2mp/tic with 1450hp/mp. Refresh is worth 2.2mp/tic after you take into account you have to cast it. the -.4mp/tic is for the fact you have to cure yourself before/after vert. I think probably 14.5mp/tic is more accurate, so possibly 24mp/tic drain is the break-even point.

Also remember that the only thing minikin is doing is making it so what sub you pick doesn't matter in more situations, it just raises the threshold where dumping mp gives /sch the advantage over /rdm.

[Raksha]

Convert is worth 7.2mp/tic with 1450hp/mp. Refresh is worth 2.2mp/tic after you take into account you have to cast it. the -.4mp/tic is for the fact you have to cure yourself before/after vert. I think probably 14.5mp/tic is more accurate, so possibly 24mp/tic drain is the break-even point.


Yeah I edited my post.

Also I don't really see anywhere where you try to quantify mp drain. There is no mention of conserve MP or light arts mp reduction in your post. Perhaps my reading comprehension is suffering due to lack of sleep though so please point that out for me as well.

[DebbieGibson]

Yeah I edited my post.

Also I don't really see anywhere where you try to quantify mp drain. There is no mention of conserve MP or light arts mp reduction in your post. Perhaps my reading comprehension is suffering due to lack of sleep though so please point that out for me as well.

It's the 17% reduction on MP drain given to /sch that RDM does not enjoy. mpcost*.9*.92

[Raksha]

It's the 17% reduction on MP drain given to /sch that RDM does not enjoy. mpcost*.9*.92

Ah it was at the top, my bad. I was looking for it in the "meat" of the post.

[Monchat]

Af3 legs do not have refresh.......if you are refering to that converts mp cost to cure that is bascily a conserve Mp for cures...but very minimal, and often unoticable. it is ironicly in fact what are trying to acheive if you simply...sub sch in the 1st place..


ok so you are really trolling. AF3+2 leg, the best peice of the set, has unnoticable affect? I cure that monk for 1100 HP, 5% of 1100 is 55, therefore my cure V on cost me 80 MP, less than a cure IV, saving 40% of my MP. No, it doesnt work like conserve MP.

[Alhanelem]

Most of the stuff the OP says about SCH is BS. Also, he spends a full screen post with a topic title that makes it sound like the whole update sucks but spends most of the post telling us all about how much SCH sucks and will continue to suck.

Does SCH make bigger nukes than a BLM? Of course not. Does it do them more efficiently and is able to keep going when a BLM might have to slow down? Definitely. Funny, my helices don't "resist against most HNM." They work against anything any other elemental magic will work on. So unless that "HNM" is resistant to elemental magic in general, SCH is fine. Helices are only the most efficicent damage spells in the game, offer a lot of damage for low hate if you need that, and you can cast other spells while the helix is working.

Give us a break. Most of the adjustment contents were pretty good. THF did kind of get the shaft, but the ability could end up being good depending on its parameters.

[Neonii]

Do you realize that whm/rdm runs out much faster due to everythign costing full? it may "look" like they have twice the pool but they go through as fast as just having one. the time it takes in the same situation that a whm/rdm runs out of mp, converts and runs out again, a proper whm/sch will still have over half mp, i have both subs and have played around with both. /sch wins, hands down, not discussing this crap again. i don't expect people know how to use WHM properly. hence my statment eariler that if you don't see the disadvantages of /rdm you won't ever.


As a budding whm why dont you point us to where you went into this in detail? And while you are at it explain how to use whm properly? I'm not trolling btw 90% of my time is spent on smn but i'm still working on whm and am interested in all anyone has to say. Made inquiry in whm boards awhile back and got nice responses. The biggest room in the world is the room for improvement so im interested in what you have to say. Post a link?

[MarkovChain]

It's the 17% reduction on MP drain given to /sch that RDM does not enjoy. mpcost*.9*.92

It means that whenever /rdm uses 6 spells, /sch uses 5 spells. How can this be anywhere close to having 2x the same MP pool ? Also refresh is a sublimation that doesn't suck or equivalentely sublimation is a refresh that sucks. /sch will only perform better if you never deplete your MP pool which means there is not much pressure on the WHM so who cares what SJ.

[DebbieGibson]

It means that whenever /rdm uses 6 spells, /sch uses 5 spells. How can this be anywhere close to having 2x the same MP pool ? Also refresh is a sublimation that doesn't suck or equivalentely sublimation is a refresh that sucks. /sch will only perform better if you never deplete your MP pool which means there is not much pressure on the WHM so who cares what SJ.

It depends on the speed at which you deplete your MP. /sch is only better than /rdm in mp virility(lol) when you have external forms of mp regeneration, either via aspir, atma, or relic ballads.(and at the same time only when you are using more than 25mp/3seconds, if less than that then sub is irrelevant if you have external MP sources.)

Also when talking about this convert isn't thought of as 2x the mp pool, that would be referring to types of events where it is impossible to sustain your mp or where you don't care or want to sustain your mp like a zerg. The 2x mp pool that comes from /rdm is a source of refresh in my earlier post.


My math can probably be improved upon if you had a better model that more closely fit how the game actually plays. I'm too lazy to do such a thing though. Maybe some /sch zealot will come along and give us a better understanding.

[MarkovChain]

Convert must not be considered a source of refresh because you never convert every 10 minutes (anymore). You just spam cure 5/6 and convert if out of MP. But even if you ever find something where converting every 10' is required it is clearly a lot better than /sch.

Of course if vortex sole activity (most likely) is being the dual boxed WHM of a MNK/WAR I guess he doesn't exactly now what WHM is. It's kinda supposed to keep at least 6 persons alive at the same time (hasted + mob dia'ed, barpsells up). There used to be a time where people played in parties and such. In this case you look dumb with your /sch when you run out of MP on a 10' NM fight.

[Vortex]

Wrong sir, please sea my post above. The only reason /sch works is because of aspir or atma. Without those /rdm is more efficient. So make your decision based on area and mobs.

LOL and because of conserve MP and 300+ sublimation and 10% reduction on cost. and hell even enfeeling gets a boost.
very rarely do i even use aspir and only time i do is probably outside but that is a good find, /sch is far more effecient,

and unlike what some retard said casting 5 spells instead of 6 is not an accuracte reason this person has obviously never subed sch outside of abyssea. and seal nms. don't follow that example.

Try the damn sub over time you will see. i am not going to keep going through this. /rdm is garbage, period. if you are so desparate for that convert that you don't need then by all means. i have givin up on whms knowing what they are doing long time ago. and getting more into it now is just getting more annoying.

Just remember, the moment you convert, you already ran out of mp. thus you prooved why it sucks. in the mean time the /sch still has over half there Mp and more then likly sublimations most of the mp back and still doing it.
it is always funny watchinng a whm/rdm convert and get to the point they are about to run out of mp again and i havn't even diped below 600 mp yet, with a full sublimation bar.

You are not factoring conserve Mp the MP saved from the natrual 10% Mp reduction cost + the conserve MP trait it self. because conserve mp is a trait that randomly activatesi am not going to keep going in ciricles about /rdm's shittiness. actually TRY /sch for a while and watch instead of /rdm only and taking guesses. untill then i will continue to snicker at every /rdm going through there pool and converting while i'm still over half my mp if the fight is draining that much MP,

Nice to see abyssea still breeding brain dead whms.

When more content comes outsides you will defintly see what is wrong, but since abyssea is just constant refresh it matters little. but if you want to stick to /rdm you won't be able to fuction outside abyssea unless there is more then one whm with you.

In summery, abyssea has spoiled alot of people as is, you can probably even get away with whm/dnc and still keep MP so untill abyssea craze is over, i think this problem will persist.

[DebbieGibson]

LOL and because of conserve MP and 300+ sublimation and 10% reduction on cost. and hell even enfeeling gets a boost.
very rarely do i even use aspir and only time i do is probably outside but that is a good find, /sch is far more effecient,

and unlike what some retard said casting 5 spells instead of 6 is not an accuracte reason this person has obviously never subed sch outside of abyssea. and seal nms. don't follow that example.

Try the damn sub over time you will see. i am not going to keep going through this. /rdm is garbage, period. if you are so desparate for that convert that you don't need then by all means. i have givin up on whms knowing what they are doing long time ago. and getting more into it now is just getting more annoying.

Just remember, the moment you convert, you already ran out of mp. thus you prooved why it sucks. in the mean time the /sch still has over half there Mp and more then likly sublimations most of the mp back and still doing it.
it is always funny watchinng a whm/rdm convert and get to the point they are about to run out of mp again and i havn't even diped below 600 mp yet, with a full sublimation bar.

You are not factoring conserve Mp the MP saved from the natrual 10% Mp reduction cost + the conserve MP trait it self. because conserve mp is a trait that randomly activatesi am not going to keep going in ciricles about /rdm's shittiness. actually TRY /sch for a while and watch instead of /rdm only and taking guesses. untill then i will continue to snicker at every /rdm going through there pool and converting while i'm still over half my mp if the fight is draining that much MP,

Nice to see abyssea still breeding brain dead whms.

When more content comes outsides you will defintly see what is wrong, but since abyssea is just constant refresh it matters little. but if you want to stick to /rdm you won't be able to fuction outside abyssea unless there is more then one whm with you.

In summery, abyssea has spoiled alot of people as is, you can probably even get away with whm/dnc and still keep MP so untill abyssea craze is over, i think this problem will persist.

As long as I have a post with math backing up my position and you only post conjecture, you are incorrect. Facts > opinion. If you had actually read my post, you would have seen that outside abyssea is exactly where /rdm is superior to /sch. :)

[Vortex]

As long as I have a post with math backing up my position and you only post conjecture, you are incorrect. Facts > opinion. If you had actually read my post, you would have seen that outside abyssea is exactly where /rdm is superior to /sch. :)

Shit that you make up based off assumption is not correct, no, i have already proved through exprience that /sch is far superior, no sir, you are not correct, and as long as you keep subbing /rdm you will forever be on the back seat of good whms. i am done with this crap, keep subbing your rdm and using more MP,

outside /sch is far more effencint in every way, shape and form, you are obviously really bad at math or you simply are in comeplte denial. when i actually run out of mp as /sch i'll think about /rdm but it will never happen because i already know it's better after testing out /rdm my self. it sucks, period, end of story.

i am taking a risk seeing as this looks more like a troll post then anything, but i think you really are that dense in which case i am sorry for you. but yea, i am not going to keep going through this. exprience and knowing how to play the job speak louder then inaccurate numbers based off something you have never actually used your self. and i have yet to find anything in and outside abyssea where i run into MP issues, which further prooves you wrong, End.

[DebbieGibson]

Shit that you make up based off assumption is not correct, no, i have already proved through exprience that /sch is far superior, no sir, you are not correct, and as long as you keep subbing /rdm you will forever be on the back seat of good whms. i am done with this crap, keep subbing your rdm and using more MP,

outside /sch is far more effencint in every way, shape and form, you are obviously really bad at math or you simply are in comeplte denial. when i actually run out of mp as /sch i'll think about /rdm but it will never happen because i already know it's better after testing out /rdm my self. it sucks, period, end of story.

i am taking a risk seeing as this looks more like a troll post then anything, but i think you really are that dense in which case i am sorry for you. but yea, i am not going to keep going through this. exprience and knowing how to play the job speak louder then inaccurate numbers based off something you have never actually used your self. and i have yet to find anything in and outside abyssea where i run into MP issues, which further prooves you wrong, End.

DebbieGibson: 1
Vortex: 0

[Alhanelem]

DebbieGibson: 1
Vortex: 0
On the basis of grammar, maybe. But really the score is more like DebbieGibson: 0, Vortex: -1.

[Vortex]

DebbieGibson: 1
Vortex: 0

Ok so it was a troll, sue me. but seriously, if you can't face facts then i can't help you. don't need you to be spreading false bs about whm, we already have bad ones as is, don't need to breed more.

[DebbieGibson]

Ok so it was a troll, sue me. but seriously, if you can't face facts then i can't help you. don't need you to be spreading false bs about whm, we already have bad ones as is, don't need to breed more.

Not a troll :o

[Vortex]

Not a troll :o


So you really are that stupid? wow. my mistake. carry on. this is just getting redundent now have fun with learning whm. (if you are actually able to)

Oh, one more thing i didn't mention due to the ranting, Mp effecicney isnt the only reason sch beats rdm, you are forgetting other helpful features with the sj such as aoe aquaviel, stoneskin, ehanced skill boost for enfeebling as to be able to add more potency with fewer resist (if any) as well as celerity for quick casting on long casting and recast spells like raise hell even manifestation aspir has it's oppertunies, which you cannot do any of that as /rdm but this is the smarter side of whm i was talking about. food for thought. alrighty, done with this mess now. have fun.

[Soranika]

Vortex, you're assuming that one does not even know or have the capacity to play WHM if they do not absolutely sub SCH is the very essence of trolling harder than you care to admit. Yes, /sch is pretty much the definitive subjob for mages, but there are still advantages to using other such as /rdm still. Yes, access to convert IS very much one of them. I, quite frankly, would rather use convert once ever so often (definitely not every 10 minutes because there's never a situation where I'd have to convert EVERY 10 minutes) than sublimation every 10 minutes. Anyone spamming only Cure V and VI in abyssea is stupid. Anyone spamming Cure IV and V instead of just III and IV outside of abyssea is stupid also.

Spending several hours farming and fighting both Bukhis and Sedna with my LS, I've only had to use convert twice without temp items and those was only when things turned sour for the whole LS. The whole argument of conserving MP was stupid and you wait till your 'final' post to mention the other advantages of SCH which I mentioned several post back, strategems. But it's not often that a WHM needs to cast an aoe stoneskin when curing under Afflatus Solace makes sure to mitigate damage with stoneskin while those that who aren't getting hit get a wasted buff when expires. With Orison Cap +1 and +2, Divine Veil turns status healing magic aoe. It's not 100% but it works. Esuna is still there too, so under Afflatus Misery Esuna and Erase heals much more.

Celerity is nice I guess, but with fast cast gear (like what I currently have on my WHM now. Lots of healing magic cast reduction) casting and recast speed isn't all that hindered unless you're using divine magic and want to use white magic to proc faster in abyssea.

The only REAL benefit that I see with SCH that I could take to heart is light arts latent effect of turning one of my worst skilled abilities into a B+, which is enfeebling magic.... which I rarely use because there's other people in my parties that uses enfeebling magic. That's my reasoning right there for not subbing SCH. This is also coming to some one who played WHM before level cap.

[Dart]

pointless argument is pointless.


TROLL ON

[Korpg]

Celerity only is worth it for casting Raise/Reraise anyway.

The time it takes to use the job ability and casting the spell doesn't help at all. Unless it is a super long spell and recast time (hint: Raise).

[Leonlionheart]

Celerity only is worth it for casting Raise/Reraise anyway.

The time it takes to use the job ability and casting the spell doesn't help at all. Unless it is a super long spell and recast time (hint: Raise).

Recast -50% says hi...

Stun every 17 seconds, you can have this

Edit: In terms of WHM, though, it's true that it's not of much use other than raise/reraise.

[Raksha]

Recast -50% says hi...

Stun every 17 seconds, you can have this



that would be alacrity, not celerity.

I'm SCH main and even I only use celerity for re/raise.

[Leonlionheart]

that would be alacrity, not celerity.

I'm SCH main and even I only use celerity for re/raise.

It's the same thing essentially, just dark arts/light arts. Nit picking.

Still a good BLM/SCH w/ Haste gears+Fast cast gears+Haste spell can solo stun Apademak using alacrity

[Raksha]

It's the same thing essentially, just dark arts/light arts. Nit picking.

Still a good BLM/SCH w/ Haste gears+Fast cast gears+Haste spell can solo stun Apademak using alacrity

SCH/BLM could do it too ;_;

[Vortex]

Vortex, you're assuming that one does not even know or have the capacity to play WHM if they do not absolutely sub SCH is the very essence of trolling harder than you care to admit. Yes, /sch is pretty much the definitive subjob for mages, but there are still advantages to using other such as /rdm still. Yes, access to convert IS very much one of them. I, quite frankly, would rather use convert once ever so often (definitely not every 10 minutes because there's never a situation where I'd have to convert EVERY 10 minutes) than sublimation every 10 minutes. Anyone spamming only Cure V and VI in abyssea is stupid. Anyone spamming Cure IV and V instead of just III and IV outside of abyssea is stupid also.

Sigh. ok, fine. Let's get one thing straight, in abyssea. sub matters very little. let's just get that out the way, you can sub whm/war and still keep Mp on standerd fights. You're 1st flaw is that sublimation is a 30 second recast, and it takes alot less then 10 minutes to reach the full MP needed for it fill up, and depending on your HP you can easily get 250-300+ You just made it a even more clear point were outside cure 3 and 4 is all you need, which means light arts is giving you and even MORE benefit with reduced MP cost and in a situitation where you would have to raise somone you just killed 150 mp which is alot, when i can simply Penury raise or celerity in a situation where the person needs to be raised quickly. and that's assuming conserve Mp kicked in during it.

Stop throwing this Cure V BS at me, even in the rare cases Cure V is needed (and there will be times) unless you plan on casting 2-3 cure 4s to fill up somone with high HP Like MNKs penury Cure V, you use that as /rdm bye bye MP.


Spending several hours farming and fighting both Bukhis and Sedna with my LS, I've only had to use convert twice without temp items and those was only when things turned sour for the whole LS. The whole argument of conserving MP was stupid and you wait till your 'final' post to mention the other advantages of SCH which I mentioned several post back, strategems. But it's not often that a WHM needs to cast an aoe stoneskin when curing under Afflatus Solace makes sure to mitigate damage with stoneskin while those that who aren't getting hit get a wasted buff when expires. With Orison Cap +1 and +2, Divine Veil turns status healing magic aoe. It's not 100% but it works. Esuna is still there too, so under Afflatus Misery Esuna and Erase heals much more.

Yes because it always a great idea to use esuna in the middle of a dangerous AOE mob, and relying on a comeplety random job trait from hat is also a good idea. oh you only had to convert once? fantastic. my whm mule subed blm did the exact same thing with no mp issues. and i doued bhukis so that is not even a good example, i also doued senda as mnk+whm/blm (mule again) and still had no MP issues. so there goes your logic once again, it's abyssea you're pamperd. with refresh.

Things like aoe stoneskin and other buffs depend on the situiation and intellegent use, of course it's not common because Most WHMs dont know what else to do outside of pressing a cure macro over and over again. you need to be a quick thinker to get a use out of things like this. example of aoe aquaveil is great for any tank that casts. stoneskin is great for any ninja tank, period. i don't even need to explain why.


Celerity is nice I guess, but with fast cast gear (like what I currently have on my WHM now. Lots of healing magic cast reduction) casting and recast speed isn't all that hindered unless you're using divine magic and want to use white magic to proc faster in abyssea.

Once again...Light arts already has a native fast cast to it...and more advanced whms have a haste/fast cast set for anything that isn't a cure. so /rdm fast cast bonus is not even a valid reason anymore since whm has plenty of gear to match it on top of light arts bonus.


The only REAL benefit that I see with SCH that I could take to heart is light arts latent effect of turning one of my worst skilled abilities into a B+, which is enfeebling magic.... which I rarely use because there's other people in my parties that uses enfeebling magic. That's my reasoning right there for not subbing SCH. This is also coming to some one who played WHM before level cap.

and just about everything else sch has tops /rdm and i am glad you always have an enfeelber in your party at all times. most people don't bother bringing RDMs main because they aren't needed anymore. i certainly have never needed one because i can take care of enfeebling and cures. nor do i need refresh. ever. if i do, sometimes i have a brd and that is already over kill because i just keep recapping or near capping Mp due to ballad. while i watch whm/rdm beg for ballad because they are killing there Mp on the exact same fights that i barely dip below 1k on without refresh. even just today i sat and watched a whm/rdm solo heal drague with a verth mnk WITH earth wyrm atma and she was destroying her Mp pool often dipping into 2-300 MP and i have never even came close to running out of MP ever fighting dragua.

Seriously, the ONLY reason to even use rdm is if you are to lazy to use addendum black for dispel or gravity for some reason. the diffrence may not be triumph huge inside abyssea but it is still a better sub in every situation you can think of.

No i am NOT saying you MUST sub sch all the time, even my mule gets away with /blm all the time and it HAS RDM sub, but i even find being able to warp and stun more useful then the crap /rdm gives, but if you take WHM seriously enough the benefits are there and obvious to people who have extensivly learned and played the job, how many times do i have to keep going in ciricles with this crap? i do not expect every whm to play the way i play it but it's obviously working great and have not ran into any issues since, while i continue to see every /rdm struggle for Mp even inside abyssea on anything that needs to much curing. the evidence has been clear to me for a long time, nor will it change, if you don't know how to properly use /sch then that is your flaw, but just because you aren't good at utilizing it dosn't mean /rdm is better, it simply means you don't know any better.


Here you go, something to get you started.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Light_Arts

I'll even highlight the most important part that i'm sure you will overlook so to make sure you have no excuses.


Reduces MP costs for White Magic spells by 10%, and increases MP costs for Black Magic spells by 20%.
Reduces casting time for White Magic by 10%, and increases casting time for Black Magic by 20%.
Reduces recast time for White Magic by 10%, and increases recast time for Black Magic by 20%.

Last i checked /rdm fast cast for sj level is 15% and that 5% is easily made up for by various peices of gear WHM can wear.


http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Conserve_MP

Read those Throughly and study them, then you will be on the path to understanding /schs benefits

[Leonlionheart]

Light arts also stacks with fast cast as in you can go over 50% cap iirc (or whatever the new cap is, as I've heard it was raised at the same time the crit damage cap was)

Edit: I.E. 10% neck 15% feet 7% Shield 10% merits 12% legs = Cure Casting time -54%, Loquacious Earring -2%, (-56% total, assuming that the new cap is around 55 is what I've read) -66% total, so that's .85 second Cure VI, assuming my math is right.

[Ank]

They "stack" in that arts is applied before fastcast, supposedly.


http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Spell_Recast

[Leonlionheart]

They "stack" in that arts is applied before fastcast, supposedly.


http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Spell_Recast

Well, according to that I am wrong!

"Fast cast has an effective cap of 80%"

So /RDM would win for casting speed on cures unless you get to 80% through atma somehow, though I'm pretty sure you can't.

Oh well, MP efficiency is still in /SCH's favor.

[Korpg]

Well, according to that I am wrong!

"Fast cast has an effective cap of 80%"

So /RDM would win for casting speed on cures unless you get to 80% through atma somehow, though I'm pretty sure you can't.

Oh well, MP efficiency is still in /SCH's favor.

I thought that was pretty obvious, since BLM/RDM can cast spells at 25% casting time now.

But isn't the argument in terms of MP, not casting time? Isn't that what people are arguing about with /SCH Arts/Sublimation and /RDM Refresh/Convert?

[Cruentus]

Yeah, I'm basically sick of this game as a whole now.

In my opinion, dark knights should be able to out-damage warriors every time. A warrior is a weapons specialist, not a damage specialist like the dark knight should be. Sure, it'll cost an arm and a leg, but who cares? The enemy should be dead by then, and if it's not, you're bad at your job. That is how things SHOULD be.

As things stand, however, dark knights are outclassed by warriors, monks, hell, even a bard with a decent melee build in Abyssea can outpace a flawless dark knight now. It's freaking ridiculous, and I won't have it. Maybe if you gave us a job trait like Eye for an Eye, which increases our Attack in proportion to the HP we've lost. Maybe if you fixed Dread Spikes and our Absorb spells. Maybe if the monsters in the game weren't resistant to dark magic more than half the time.

But no. You're too late.

I'm canceling my subscription today. I have had enough of this crap. Square Enix, I've given you chance after chance, but the fact of the matter is this: You don't know how to handle the only job in the game I actually have respect for. For that, you've lost out on my monthly tithes.

And don't even get me started on Final Fantasy XIV...

[Korpg]

Yeah, I'm basically sick of this game as a whole now.

In my opinion, dark knights should be able to out-damage warriors every time. A warrior is a weapons specialist, not a damage specialist like the dark knight should be. Sure, it'll cost an arm and a leg, but who cares? The enemy should be dead by then, and if it's not, you're bad at your job. That is how things SHOULD be.

As things stand, however, dark knights are outclassed by warriors, monks, hell, even a bard with a decent melee build in Abyssea can outpace a flawless dark knight now. It's freaking ridiculous, and I won't have it. Maybe if you gave us a job trait like Eye for an Eye, which increases our Attack in proportion to the HP we've lost. Maybe if you fixed Dread Spikes and our Absorb spells. Maybe if the monsters in the game weren't resistant to dark magic more than half the time.

But no. You're too late.

I'm canceling my subscription today. I have had enough of this crap. Square Enix, I've given you chance after chance, but the fact of the matter is this: You don't know how to handle the only job in the game I actually have respect for. For that, you've lost out on my monthly tithes.

And don't even get me started on Final Fantasy XIV...

See you next month.

Yeah, if DRKs get a critical WS, they might be on par with substandard WARs, but there is more to WAR than being a weapon specialist. DRKs are good for doing a lot of damage in a short amount of time, but never were ment to to take any damage either. Besides, DRKs can do more per normal hit than a WAR, abet by a small amount. When/If DRKs get a crit WS, it probably won't be on par with WAR's WSs because DRK isn't a job that likes to crit alot, like WAR does....

[Monchat]

Yeah, I'm basically sick of this game as a whole now.

In my opinion, dark knights should be able to out-damage warriors every time. A warrior is a weapons specialist, not a damage specialist like the dark knight should be. Sure, it'll cost an arm and a leg, but who cares? The enemy should be dead by then, and if it's not, you're bad at your job. That is how things SHOULD be.

As things stand, however, dark knights are outclassed by warriors, monks, hell, even a bard with a decent melee build in Abyssea can outpace a flawless dark knight now. It's freaking ridiculous, and I won't have it. Maybe if you gave us a job trait like Eye for an Eye, which increases our Attack in proportion to the HP we've lost. Maybe if you fixed Dread Spikes and our Absorb spells. Maybe if the monsters in the game weren't resistant to dark magic more than half the time.

But no. You're too late.

I'm canceling my subscription today. I have had enough of this crap. Square Enix, I've given you chance after chance, but the fact of the matter is this: You don't know how to handle the only job in the game I actually have respect for. For that, you've lost out on my monthly tithes.

And don't even get me started on Final Fantasy XIV...

people think that game balance= my job should be able to do anything. its not the game that has imbablance now,its abyssea ( overpowered WHM, atma etc, that favors mnk war nin). no, balance is not = "my job should be able to do anything".

WAR and MNK have always, and will always be the number 1 and 2 DD. Always, I guarrantee you. WHM will always the number 1 healer, why would it be other wise? WHM cannot do anything but heal. mnk and war cannot do anything but deal damage.

Each job has a niche role, well at 75 anyway, and you can ignore abyssea because its over now, so easy any job can do the stuff anyway. Its the players that chose to ignore other jobs. So you know, at 75 DRK was a decent DD (not the best sure but it could do about the same as a drg or sam, i.e 75% of a MNK or WAR's dmg), and im sure it can perform decently in abyssea too. But where is shined was zerging, numer 1 zerging jobs. And you can find niche for every jobs, even pup and blu...Just wait for them to add content where a true zerg is usefull and peopel will want drks again.

[Sparthos]

MNK has not always been considered a top-tier DD and many jobs have always lacked a niche.

What exactly is the niche for BST and PUP in a party?

[MarkovChain]

Why do you want a niche for BSt in a party ? He said each job has a niche, BST soloes.

[Sparthos]

Why do you want a niche for BSt in a party ? He said each job has a niche, BST soloes.

As if solo qualifies as a niche.

NIN solos yet it can also perform as a tank or DD.
BLU solos yet it can also perform as a DD, tank or healer.
RDM solos yet it can also heal, enfeeble and nuke.

These 3 classes can join party events and do other roles at a passable level. BST can solo and.... operate as a sub-optimal generic DD.

Yeah... the monopoly on solo (if there ever was one) is over.

[MarkovChain]

BST has treasure hunter it makes them defacto incredibly more efficient that the wanna be avesta from BG.

[Malacite]

Since when is BST a bad DD?

Granted they're overdue for a WS that's stronger than Rampage, but a well-geared BST with the right jug can do a looooooot of damage >_>

[Concerned4FFxi]

sch using rapture can easily out cure a rdm with same cure potencey gear and reach the cure ability of cure 5 (reach i said not equal), however sch's dot should be improved. Whm is curing, blm nuking, rdm enfeeble, sch dot- this is what the jobs should be focused on (some spell sharing is good but not where whm gets addle, etc and im career whm but still wtf)

[Vortex]

Since when is BST a bad DD?

Granted they're overdue for a WS that's stronger than Rampage, but a well-geared BST with the right jug can do a looooooot of damage >_>

BST is a great DD, but as it was said, since it's a soloer job most people don't reconize/care about it's dd aspects, since so many other jobs fill that role already, when you think about it, no one asks a bst to come to.....anything.




sch using rapture can easily out cure a rdm with same cure potencey gear and reach the cure ability of cure 5 (reach i said not equal), however sch's dot should be improved. Whm is curing, blm nuking, rdm enfeeble, sch dot- this is what the jobs should be focused on (some spell sharing is good but not where whm gets addle, etc and im career whm but still wtf)

MV and helix was SCHs top nitch and because of some people abusing it with a glitch they decided to "nerf" it, imo it didnt need a nerf altho helix is not a "normal" tick like many dots the damage is undeniable but now that MV can "miss" just killed that aspect of it. theyneed to remove that nerf they gave it, and as far as improving it they simply need to reduce the "tick" number timer. it's like every 8-9 seconds or some crap.

[Leonlionheart]

BST has the absolute best WS hands in the game, aside from perfection aug'd heca +1...

I see +2 BST hands and get oh so jelly...