dev1024 - healing magic [Archive] - FINAL FANTASY XI Forum

Tazz

08-20-2011, 09:42 AM

@ DebbieGibson I have whm leveled but thats not the issue.

DNC and even a blue mage can achieve more HP cured than a rdm or a scholar who are supposed to be able to use both schools of magic (white and black) with good (not great) proficiency. Cure V will not eliminate then need/desire for whm either, at least not in my opinion. WHM is such a powerful healer, yet I never get to play on RDM on SCH anymore because poeple always want my whm. We get cure IV (SCH55 and RDM48) yet we go 40-47 levels without any more curing magic...

As far as Tabula Rasa Embrava curing goes, regardless of what it does, is not a viable main healing option. Maybe its just a rant, but I do know others are both opposed and for CURE V for other mages.

One solution/idea I have is to allow normal enmity rules for Cure V for rdm and sch, and allow whm to still have the same enmity gained from cure V and cure III. It just seems silly to have these rdm and sch, who are supposed to be a hybrid mages, unable to cast a basic spell to recover HP.

Sasaraixx

08-20-2011, 05:13 PM

I think most SCH's are a bit disappointed with this update. I feel that now is a good time to throw out our suggestions to the Dev team once again. I know most of you out there are more creative than me when it comes to suggesting new ideas, but I will give it a go.

Cure V would be the easiest way to improve our healing aspect. It would also be the least creative and do nothing for helping establish SCH as a unique class. Our DOT spells are our most unique aspect and seem like the best way to go. The problem with DOT healing, however, is that if your tank takes huge damage you do not have the luxury of waiting 10 ticks to get his HP back up. In order to make this a viable route, we would need general buffs to all aspects of our Light Arts. I also think that a good balancing factor may be to make us proficient at single target healing, but not party-wide healing. This would allow WHM to maintain a distinct advantage. (And I don't just mean the Curaga spells. Being able to cycle between Cure V and VI(as inefficient as it is) allows WHM to heal multiple party members rapidly after a devastating AOE move.)

1) Healing Helix - Let's call it "Sanare." It would have to be more potent than Regen IV, but not so powerful that you cast it once and go afk. I think the idea should be for it to be used in conjunction with Cure IV. The only problem is that it would completely render the Regen spells useless, unless they were stackable.

The other option is to give SCH a Job Trait or Stance that improves the potency of all Regen type spells. I don't know how potent the dot needs to be to make this viable.

2) Improved Stratagem Usage
SCH has a lot of stratagems at its disposal that could help with our healing. The problem is that we don't have enough of them to rely on in a main healing situation AND it is too time consuming to have to use Rapture, Penury, Tranquility before each cure. Perhaps we could have a "sub-stance" or job ability that is available only in Light Arts. While under this effect, you receive 2 uses for each stratagem. So if you use Rapture, it will be applied to your next 2 cures, etc. There obviously needs to be a penalty, but the only thing I can think of is making Dark Arts inaccessible for a set period of time.

3) Improvement of Existing Spells
I am mainly referring to the Animus spells. If these spells actually worked, they would give us a way to handle the enmity issues of Cure IV. I would also add the storm spells to this list. If they were given additional effects, offensive or defensive, then it would help group kill faster or take less damage. Both would help lessen the curing load of the SCH.

4) Meriting Light Arts
Perhaps the next set of merits can include merits to Light (and Dark) Arts. For example, you could merit effects like enmity decay or casting time.

5) Gear
SCH is often excluded from a lot of the mage equipment. Adding the job to pieces like Roundel or having it be the second job on the WHM pieces instead of SMN could also be helpful. They've started doing this for BLM/SCH so hopefully they would be more open to doing this for white magic based pieces.

Also, it would be nice if we actually knew what our AF3 body does or perhaps have the enmity effect changed would also help.

What does everyone else think?

Crossarius

08-20-2011, 08:32 PM

Honestly it is a disappointment to notice there are no new unique spells or abilities for SCH! Kaustra and embrava cannot be counted. We have these spells at our disposal only for about 90 seconds (post-update) every two hours. The rest of the time we can keep on being a semi-gimpy healer. Dark arts doesn't really need too much work but we certainly lack our NEW unique spells!

Where are they? Why does every other Mage job gain new utility spells but SCH doesn't? Do not misunderstand. It's great other mage jobs are getting new toys (myself being a Black Mage too).
But Tier II Storms, Tier II Helix would be a no-brainer and as a first tier of them is already existent, it just cannot be too hard to make them.

There were many good ideas post, I certainly liked the idea of fireback spells, a kind of "traps" laid out on the mob.
There is not even a buff to our existing unique spells and the level cap is being upped again and there isn't a single one for us!

I'd happily trade Embrava and Kaustra for usefull spells usable the rest of the 118,5 minutes! I'd forfeit raise and reraise3 too.

TimeMage

08-20-2011, 11:15 PM

I think that, if they want to make us regen-type spells experts, we need REALLY powerful regens to begin with. Regen IV is 30/tick, well, if we aren't getting Cure V or something similar, we need a regen-type spell that does at least 80-100 per tick. And even then, it would take the spell a good 30 seconds minimum to heal somewhat close to a Cure V. A healing helix would be nice... If only for the fact that, if it's going to tick every 10 seconds, it should heal at least 500 HP per tick, something I doubt they will do.

I really hope they surprise me with a unique spell that makes us competent at main healing but inferior to WHMs, because I don't see an easy way.

Raksha

08-21-2011, 04:28 AM

What if they added a potent regen to cure3? So cure4 > Cure3 w/ regen, cure4 again?

Sounds like a dumb idea to me too, but maybe heading in the right direction?

There isn't really much of a substitute for just giving us a higher tier cure though.

Tsukino_Kaji

08-21-2011, 05:15 AM

You are not a whm, you will never be a whm, you were never meant to be a whm. If you want cure V, level whm.

Ank

08-21-2011, 06:32 AM

4) Meriting Light Arts
Perhaps the next set of merits can include merits to Light (and Dark) Arts. For example, you could merit effects like enmity decay or casting time.

Would sure beat the hell out of meriting "grimoire recast"

You know a potent regen added to cures could be neat to, sch version of cureskin.. but that or a "healing helix" would have to be far and above any current "regen" spell I'd think.

Find it amazing how whm's get so butthurt over one spell, its as if they have no other tools and abilities that make them more useful than anyone else and everything hinges on it.

Crossarius

08-21-2011, 09:03 AM

You are not a whm, you will never be a whm, you were never meant to be a whm. If you want cure V, level whm.

No matter how you turn it. there has been no new cure for SCH (lvl 55) or RDM (lvl 48) (or PLD lvl 55) for 40 level! And Cure 4 is SJable by any other Job. I don't even care about Cure V, but there has to be at least some tool, to improve the currently lacking ability to keep people alive accordingly. Take a look at how SCH main healed back in the days of a lvsl75 Vana'diel:

Who wants to be WHM? Back in the days SCH was a good healer because it was able to prevent DMG like almost no other job, which lessened the need of cure spammage. Stoneskin never uncapped after the level cap has been upped, neither was a second tier released.

I'd like to see tools to prevent dmg instead of curing all of it. That would fit much better to SCH. Make it possible for us to use rapture on it to enhance it so it absorbs 525 HP (+50% from rapture, +60% with emp+2 resulting in 560 HP absorbed)

Give us a spell that converts big incoming damage into DoT (strengh depending on total dmg it would have dealt?) instead, that can then be erased from the target through erase or any other new spell. Sounds overpowered? Just scale it correctly.

There could be many different approaches to give SCH more tools to keep people alive without stepping on WHMs toes.
Anything really but not just nothing at all.

Merton9999

08-21-2011, 09:13 AM

Good ideas

I like your ideas as usual Sasaraixx. I'll support any Cure V alternative that works without being a reactive spamming of one spell, a la WHM.

1)I like your name for the healing helix the most! The concept is a little too abstract right now to know if it would turn out useful. I can see if you have 200+ HP ticking at the frequency of regen then you get essentially a Cure V result in the time it takes to cast Cure IV or a bit after. That may be enough.

My problem with this is it just seems so ordinary. I'm more a fan of SCH keeping a party alive by not having to cure at all, which was largely the case in old exp parties 40-75. I think they can do this by boosting Adloquium and Animus enough that we keep the attention on the tank ensured, and by introducing phalanx/stoneskin style damage mitigation alternatives like the Glyphs that Judge posted a while back. If Abyssea-style "balance" is kept, it may not be possible to make enmity and TP control matter anymore, though, so Sanare it is!

2) Sotek had mentioned something like this and I like it. Maybe a JA you use before strat that makes the strat last a period of time instead of wearing off with one spell, but during that time you can't switch arts?

3) very much in support of boosting storms and animus. For storms, I'd go with the Geomancy JA that increases the target's current weather to double weather and adds a bonus associated with the element (double attack for fire, critical hit for wind, etc.). Most importantly, I'd put the JA on a timer so we can maybe have it applied to one or two people at once, but not the whole party. I'd rather have this idea of trade-off than just replace all current tier 1 storms with a different tier 2 to cycle for everyone. Geomancy would be a nice merit ability where you can reduce the recast timer with upgrades, and would be a natural 99 extension of Stormsurge imo.

For Animus and Adloquium, I like the idea posted here of a party-target Modus Veritas ability that increased potency and decreased duration of tick based buffs. Again, make it so we can boost regen (or Sanare!), Adloquium etc. on maybe one or two people based on the recast.

5) Gear is where I don't think we need help. I often see Aurorastorm + Korin Obi + Twilight Cape left off of our cure potency considerations. With these, you can force light weather bonus to proc 100% of the time, and our current available cure potency stands at 59% (1.38 gear x 1.15 spell + cape + obi), which is higher than WHM can get due to gear cap being 50% and WHM not being able to rely on weather without a SCH main. I think this is why SCH was left off of Roundel and Facio.

Merton9999

08-21-2011, 09:15 AM

Give us a spell that converts big incoming damage into DoT (strengh depending on total dmg it would have dealt?) instead, that can then be erased from the target through erase or any other new spell. Sounds overpowered? Just scale it correctly.

I'm LOVING this. Have to think about it some more, but currently loving.

Sotek

08-21-2011, 09:58 AM

2) Sotek had mentioned something like this and I like it. Maybe a JA you use before strat that makes the strat last a period of time instead of wearing off with one spell, but during that time you can't switch arts?

I can see it working in two ways:
1. You use the JA and it is used up instead of Stratagems, with the spell still getting their effect, meaning they can last for two spells. This would possibly have balance issues, but it would mean you can use it, switch Arts, and apply new Stratagems.
2. You use it, then use a Stratagem and the effect is used up and the Stratagem wears off after two spells. This way it would only effect one Stratagem and you can't switch Arts after using the Stratagem (well you can, but it would be wasted).

I'm incline to go with 1. It sounds a bit unbalanced, but I don't really think it is. You're not going to spam a great deal of Stratagems on it regardless. I can see myself getting more use out of it too. Accession and Perpetuance would last for Protect V and Shell V, or Stoneskin and Phalanx for example. With Perpetuance in mind, I'd put it on a 5 minute timer. Perfect for buffing, great for nuking, absolutely fucking amazing for Immanence (in general) Five V + Thunder V > Ukko's Fury (when the time comes, that is).

If we did get something like this, I'd be even more puzzled at SE's choice of Tabula Rasa buff, though. Making it so Stratagems just don't wear off during it seems like a perfectly reasonable request considering the only Scholar NPC you fight in the game gets this exact effect. Then again, this is SE we're talking about. We just got an update notice with little else but 2Hr spells, when they've mentioned things like reducing the recast on Modus Veritas (I really don't have it in me to make a point about that anymore) and we've barked it at them to increase the range on Libra. Those two things don't take long to implement - certainly not the month we'll have to wait for a minor update if they're not in this one - so I see no reason not to have them done this update. They could have mentioned Sublimation too, unless I'm mistaken we should be getting an extra tic at Lv.95. Might be an issue with their new layout for Job Adjustment notices, though. I'm still used to getting two or three parts with actual details in them, rather than a single one just detailing new stuff. Then again they mentioned extending Tabulas effect, so who knows.

As for healing capabilities, I must say I've lost interest. I've seen it all from "You could handle -nas/Erase because our White Mage is shit and being lazy", "Running up and spending 12 seconds doing Phalanxga is more overpowered than spending 1 second to Cure an excessive amount of HP and give the target Stoneskin" to "Scholar can nuke as well so it shouldn't rival White Mage". Honestly, if so many people think FFXI should have just one job capable of main healing, I'm not going to argue. SE doesn't listen to reason. I've lost my patience trying to explain that Scholar simply cannot fill the role of Black Mage and White Mage at the same time. The most it can do is fill the role of Black Mage (ignore Stagger for a moment) and switch to White Mage if the need arises, the reverse simply isn't true so I don't get why White Mages try to make a point of it (and actually, the point of Afflatus Solace seems to be to let White Mage dish out some damage while healing so what the hell?), it's more perplexing given the fact that Black Mages have far more reason to complain about Scholar due to this fact, but don't; at least not en mass like White Mages.

SpankWustler

08-21-2011, 10:57 AM

Honestly, if so many people think FFXI should have just one job capable of main healing, I'm not going to argue.

If it's any comfort, this argument is usually made by people who play White Mage in such a way that they think Cure V is the job's singular strong point.

Personally, I'd love to see at least Scholar gain some effective healing abilities beyond "Cure IV with all the fixins' and gravy". Cure V, Cure IV and 1/2 with Bonus Regen, Humpty Hump's Healing Helix; whatever.

Raksha

08-21-2011, 12:16 PM

If I had a second spell exactly like cure4 in every way (except different recast timer), I think that'd be pretty adequate for my purposes.

The biggest issue is having a second decent cure to spam on tanks.

Gaiben

08-22-2011, 06:07 AM

I <3 SCHs. Looking at the different threads for wanting Cure V between RDM and SCH, SCH maybe be shorter, but is a lot more detailed and intellegently surefooted. While the RDM one is full of arguments and debating. I guess that is the difference between a job that is the grab bag of can do almost anything without trying and the job that can greatly excell, though only when putting one's mind to it.

I really hope SCH gets something that reflects its tactical intellegence. /Cheer SE, you can do it!

Economizer

08-22-2011, 07:22 AM

Giving other jobs Cure V itself currently would cause more problems then most people lend credit to it, at least for White Mage. Of course, there are people who don't recognize this because they hate the job. They claim that White Mages who don't support Cure V to other classes but instead support Scholar getting unique buffs are being lazy and not using their tools but requiring Scholar who are doing the majority of healing in a party to accession a few buffs are legendary heroes who shouldn't be considered in game balance, despite effective White Mages having to run up to the mob to do buffs that place the White Mage closer to the mob for longer. Then they count the White Mage having to risk its hide as reasons White Mage is more powerful then White Mage's most powerful spell, and count Cure VI as a mark of what a White Mage is, despite it not being the more efficient cure spell.

Anyways, enough ranting about players who are upset their job isn't White Mage. I'll get to someone with good ideas.

Healing Helix

I think many people have suggested this idea. Mainly because it is good and fits the feel of Scholar.

very much in support of boosting storms and animus. For storms, I'd go with the Geomancy JA that increases the target's current weather to double weather and adds a bonus associated with the element (double attack for fire, critical hit for wind, etc.).

Somehow, this is the only way I can see Scholar getting double weather due to the consequences of Scholars getting it. Except, I see it being a job ability that would only work on other targets.

If SE thinks that double weather isn't straight overpowered for Scholar though, they might just get it. I have mixed feelings on the matter myself, since on one hand, weather effects are contenders for Scholar's single best unique buff that fits the flavor of the job, but on the other, a 30% bonus to spells is very powerful. I hope SE figures something out (or at worst, makes Scholars who 2hour get double weather spells), because I would like to see double weather, even if it isn't something that can be used often.

Gear is where I don't think we need help. I often see Aurorastorm + Korin Obi + Twilight Cape left off of our cure potency considerations. With these, you can force light weather bonus to proc 100% of the time, and our current available cure potency stands at 59% (1.38 gear x 1.15 spell + cape + obi), which is higher than WHM can get due to gear cap being 50% and WHM not being able to rely on weather without a SCH main. I think this is why SCH was left off of Roundel and Facio.

Most arguments about who has what cure spells pretty much ignore this (and any other points that might be against people getting Cure V). Either getting capped cure potency (Abyssea you can get this without even getting the two harder cure potency pieces) or double weather effects would put Scholar at a rate where they could effectively negate the very situational advantage of cureskin on all but the best geared White Mages. Capped cure potency plus double weather would just curb stomp any White Mage not being buffed by a Scholar (72% for capped + Aura, 79% for 38% + double Aura, and 95% for both capped and double Aura).

If I had to guess on the biggest reason Scholar doesn't get Cure V, this would be one of the first two guesses I'd put forth.

Of course, once Abyssea lowmans aren't what everyone on the forums is whining about, we'll probably see endgame content that has Scholar being the support backbone of most alliances. I much more enjoy discussion about what cool new toys all the mage classes get in larger parties rather then moaning about lowmans, since this happens to be an MMO.

SpankWustler

08-22-2011, 08:29 AM

SpankWustler

08-22-2011, 08:46 AM

Most arguments about who has what cure spells pretty much ignore this (and any other points that might be against people getting Cure V). Either getting capped cure potency (Abyssea you can get this without even getting the two harder cure potency pieces) or double weather effects would put Scholar at a rate where they could effectively negate the very situational advantage of cureskin on all but the best geared White Mages. Capped cure potency plus double weather would just curb stomp any White Mage not being buffed by a Scholar (72% for capped + Aura, 79% for 38% + double Aura, and 95% for both capped and double Aura).

So, assuming Scholar could somehow cast double weather and/or chose atma to lock themselves into a healing role for a fight, they could cure large amounts of HP?

I'm fine with this. Dealing damage in Abyssea is a joke and can be taken to absurd levels, why shouldn't healing be the same? And outside, a healing spell for 2k HP wouldn't be much better than a healing spell for 1k with 350 stoneskin, since an individual missing 2k HP needs Raise rather than a cure.

Maybe make it so that Cure V doesn't stack with Ascension, similar to Haste, since that would make it way too easy to heal entire alliances on either job.

Sotek

08-22-2011, 08:55 AM

stuff

Have you read my argument for Cure V? I've posted it enough, it really is quite annoying that seemingly no one has actually taken notice of it.

Remove the reduced enmity on Cure V/VI.
Give White Mage a Job Trait that covers that loss, carrying over to all Cures (potentially -agas, too).
Give Scholar Cure V.

Cure V on Scholar becomes a hate magnet, a spell that's just there because relying on Cure IV in dire circumstances is retarded. Outside Abyssea it would be what Cure VI is for White Mage, a spell that shouldn't even be cast unless, idk someone failed Stun and fast healing becomes more important than MP efficiency (with the obvious difference being White Mage still not having to worry about enmity). Mainly I've only wanted it for Abyssea because Scholar is very stretched there (to the degree where it might as well not even exist, but thats more due to Staggers), with my loss in interest in this being due to the fact that Abyssea is coming to a close. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in regards to future events for now, but so far Voidwatch hasn't really displayed the need for an Alliance, so I'm not expecting it. People are still going to prefer White Mage because Cure V and VI offer a sense of comfort, White Mage has four healing spells where Scholar has two. Scholar should be able to rival White Mage, even if it's just a issue with perception, it's still an issue. I'm probably in disagreement with the rest of the Scholars, since really I just want a healing spell I'm hardly going to use, where as most want a spell they would use; which is why I must confess confusion at how giving Scholar better healing capabilities is a better option - in a White Mages opinion - than giving Scholar its own version of Cure VI.

Siiri

08-22-2011, 11:19 AM

Have you read my argument for Cure V? I've posted it enough, it really is quite annoying that seemingly no one has actually taken notice of it.

Remove the reduced enmity on Cure V/VI.
Give White Mage a Job Trait that covers that loss, carrying over to all Cures (potentially -agas, too).
Give Scholar Cure V.

Actually the main scholar in my linkshell and I have this discussion all the time. We both think the perfect solution would be to remove the enmity down from Cure 5 and buff the heck out of Whm tranquil heart to compensate, while leaving RDM and SCH at t1 tranquil heart. It's such a great solution SE apparently can't think of it.

Economizer

08-22-2011, 11:46 AM

I don't understand exactly what you're getting at with the huge sentence in the middle, since running in for four seconds to use a bar-spell or standing in range of a bat's truly lethal attack down to use Esuna has never made me feel threatened. It's very possible I'm missing your point there, though.

There are also Barailment, Auspice, and Boost-Stat spells, but the point is that it isn't spectacularly lethal, just as accessioning a spell shouldn't be either. It isn't special for White Mages nor Scholars to have to jump into the fray.

Cure V being far superior to Cure VI is a very valid point, though. As far as I can tell, Cure VI is going to be very MP inefficient all the way to 99 and probably forever.

Between Abyssea and stuff like a Primeval Brew we can actually test what massive amounts of MND and VIT do to the spell. Unless 54 (my guess for the difference between now and 99) or so points of Healing Magic skill is better then 999 points of MND and VIT, we can tell the maximum amounts both can heal.

According to FFXI Calculator (v. 3.87) Cure V caps out at 810 (1215) and Cure VI at 1140 (1710). This means that Cure V gives 6(9) HP/MP, and Cure VI gives 5.02(7.53) HP/MP.

Still, having what's effectively another Cure V with a 100 MP penalty is very helpful in emergencies.

Basically, but I don't think the spell is the magical equivalent to Cure V that many people seem to think it is. I might as well act like a Scholar can Rapture every cure.

It would be super-neat if every job with native healing magic received it's own way to deal with people losing more HP than Cure IV can handle, but I can't see how other jobs getting Cure V would render White Mage obsolete.

Scholar can already match a White Mage inside Abyssea for cure potency, and I think it would be foolish to assume they will never get more cure potency gear. People don't invite White Mage for slightly better magic damage reduction or slightly better Regen, and other jobs are better at Haste cycling and nobody cares if you have a slightly easier time removing debuffs with a White Mage.

Unless being able to boost a stat 10-15 points, remove Charm/Amnesia (Maybe remove Amnesia, since it is gonna be like Doom, but without the dying. And will Scholar get that? Because that makes more sense currently then Scholar getting Cure V at the moment - White Mage got Addle right?), and cast the weakest nukes in the game are game changing I don't see White Mage magically being useful in a party outside of curing. Maybe people will start demanding that White Mage hit things with a hammer?

It isn't that White Mage doesn't have tools aside from being able to cure, it is that the job is focused on curing and Cure V is the primary tool for that. I haven't encountered any fight where any other unique White Mage spell or ability has made it so White Mage has been chosen over others.

I don't think that Red Mage or Scholar - Scholar in particular since it has weather spells that make it much more likely to match White Mage - should get Cure V.

-

All that said, a large argument that is stated by people is not just the demand for more healing, but a demand for a better healing spell then people who sub White Mage, or eventually, Red Mage. Considering that not one, but two jobs get Cure IV at sub levels, this complaint is fairly valid.

One way to fix this could be to add a tier between the current IV and V, and bump up the names on all the spells past IV. Thus the new spell would be Cure V (look! Scholar gets Cure V!) and Cure V would become Cure VI, and Cure VI could become Cure VII (or get removed, honestly, I don't think it would affect White Mage that much to see this disgrace of a spell get deleted).

The spell would cost something like 105 MP and have a roughly 4.9 HP/MP (between Cure IV and Cure V) potency from a decently geared 90 with no cure potency gear (~515 HP cured) and about a 7.4 HP/MP potency with 50% cure potency (~772 HP cured). It would never be as potent as Cure V, but would help bridge the gap. Job levels would be something like 51 WHM, 73 RDM, 83 PLD, 83 SCH (maybe add. white), which roughly match the trend SE has set for cure spells so far.

I think that this proposal would benefit everyone who has been asking for a bigger cure without stealing anyone's thunder. The spell would have normal enmity for a cure however - for PLD's benefit. This would mean that other jobs would have to rely on a mix of Tranquil Heart and enmity down spells. Fine tuning to this suggestion, of course, would be necessary.

Even if SE decided to add this spell, I still hope SE considers a decent healing helix spell for Scholar. It fits the job more then cure spamming.

SpankWustler

08-22-2011, 01:08 PM

I leaned on Esuna pretty hard in Einherjar and sometimes in CoP Dynamis, but I guess it's continued usefulness depends on which junk monsters appear in events from here on out.

Same goes for really solid magic damage mitigation, it really depends on what kind of monsters pop up. Against generic mages or something that uses a strong light or dark attack, the additional 5% from Shellra V alone is less than epic.

It is definitely true that many of White Mage's advantages depend on the kind of monster being fought.

I'm not suggesting Cure V for anybody with healing magic skill as a magic bullet. I just think it would be better, or no worse, than the healing scene is right now.

Giving Cure VI to non-White Mages with healing magic would also be a solution. I think the result would be similar to adding an extra cure, as far as MP efficiency goes. It would allow several jobs to cure huge amounts of HP for low amounts of enmity, but at the cost of twice the MP a White Mage would spend. Almost three times the cost, if you factor in Orison Pantaloons +2.

This would enable Red Mage or Scholar to take over the healing role in a pinch, but due to MP costs they wouldn't be able to cast much other than vanilla support spells. Essentially becoming the worst White Mage in all of Vana'Diel, but able to keep people alive.

I'd love to have more unique spells and abilities in the game, but I'm also weary of them. It seems that around a third turn out awful and useless and pointless. Humpty Hump's Healing Helix could be similar to Cure III with the soft cap and VIT modifier both removed every 10 seconds, or it could just end up as a concrete 200 HP every 10 seconds.

I get the feeling that there's a one guy on the development team who isn't so bright, but they all feel bad for him and let him work on a spell or ability sometimes. He's probably the dude who came up with the formula for Cure VI, actually.

Economizer

08-22-2011, 01:44 PM

Sorry if most of this is head nodding and agreeing, but I found your comment to be unusually agreeable, even if we have varied opinions about Cure V.

I leaned on Esuna pretty hard in Einherjar and sometimes in CoP Dynamis, but I guess it's continued usefulness depends on which junk monsters appear in events from here on out.

Don't get me wrong, Esuna is probably what I'd list as the second most useful thing as a White Mage just after Cure V. Certainly makes your life a whole lot easier. Also makes me wish SE would buff Afflatus Misery so it would be more equal to Afflatus Solace in use, instead of primarily being "degimp Esuna".

Same goes for really solid magic damage mitigation, it really depends on what kind of monsters pop up. Against generic mages or something that uses a strong light or dark attack, the additional 5% from Shellra V alone is less than epic.

I can't wait until we get some Barlight and Bardark. No offense to Bards, but I see no reason a White Mage (and by extension, Red Mage) shouldn't have these.

Giving Cure VI to non-White Mages with healing magic would also be a solution. I think the result would be similar to adding an extra cure, as far as MP efficiency goes.

This is another thing I thought about suggesting. Or rather, I was going to say "I'd be less offended if you were just asking for Cure VI" as a retort to Red Mages and Scholars asking for more cures.

This would enable Red Mage or Scholar to take over the healing role in a pinch, but due to MP costs they wouldn't be able to cast much other than vanilla support spells. Essentially becoming the worst White Mage in all of Vana'Diel, but able to keep people alive.

This reminds me of one time where I got careless and got caught by Amnesia after using Dark Arts. Its one thing to intentionally cast an occasional cure spell while using Dark Arts, but main healing with it because you can't change sucks.

I get the feeling that there's a one guy on the development team who isn't so bright, but they all feel bad for him and let him work on a spell or ability sometimes. He's probably the dude who came up with the formula for Cure VI, actually.

I hope SE makes Cure VI what it should have been, somehow (I'd prefer an efficiency buff over a cost reduction, but I'd take anything at this point). Also, I'd really like classes that can heal to have a decent chance too.

Game balance is a difficult thing to do when dealing with 20 classes that have not just unique balance problems and individual look and feels, but also several secondary class roles. I really hope it all gets sorted out in a way that not only makes everything unique and useful, but also open to different play-styles within the classes themselves.

I'm sure being manaburn support only is about as interesting as only ever being a curebot.

Concerned4FFxi

08-22-2011, 04:33 PM

SpankWustler

08-22-2011, 05:08 PM

The only thing whm does is cure. Sch has rapture, and rdm has a new ability that reduces the casting time to 0. Thats the solutions right there, I'd prefer SE reduce casting timer for cure 4 or give another spell to both rdm and sch that is essentially cure 4 with regen or something. Also, I was against dnc getting the high tier curing waltz, fyi, especially when it trashed other healing jobs on amount cured. Yes, blu gets basiclly cure 3.5 and 4.5, again i was against this and i love my blu. I did like the tranquil heart idea mentioned where whm gets higher tiers and sch and rdm only get first tier (if cure 5 goes to them). However, i would like to see a more job specific solutiuon to this problem rather than just, here's cure 5. The idea of rdm gettting to recast cure 4 faster or immediately and sch getting an aoe-regen helix spell isn't too bad if its not over powered (sch already gets rapture so i dont see the problem except the recast timer on cure 4, unless you cast cure 4 then rapture cure 3 for basically a second cure 4). Perhaps cure v4.1 as i said, where a small regen effect is added (but your basiclly using it to spam cure not for the regen but its there and justifies the slight increase in mp cost from a cure 4 differenc). like I said, sch gets rapture so really i feel rdm is the one that suffers. That said, it does seem odd that rdm, sch, and pld have recieved nothing past 50 level in the ways of cure. And fyi, im against whm getting addle, thats a rdm's spell/job.

Dancer's highest Curing Waltz is worthless because of the universal Waltz recast, regardless of how high a number it puts in the chat log. Magic Fruit is more MP efficient than Cure IV but it's casting time can be awkward, with the casting time of Plenilune Embrace being even worse. Addle is so pointless that it could be given to every job in the game with no noticeable effect, but I guess I understand the sentiment.

I don't think you understand how often and quickly healing spells need to be cast since you mention job abilities over and over.

Have you considered expressing your concern for Final Fantasy XI by learning how it's mechanics work?

SpankWustler

08-22-2011, 05:32 PM

Sorry if most of this is head nodding and agreeing, but I found your comment to be unusually agreeable, even if we have varied opinions about Cure V.

Your posts actually make me consider the difference between the jobs and how much of a difference is needed to be meaningful, which is why I generally respond. I'm content to leave posts like "i am happi dat what mage iz still d onli 1 wid cure 5 it iz all we kan du!" well enough alone. I think less of a difference is needed for White Mage to remain unique, but we both seem to be using stuff that actually occurs in FFXI as a basis for our opinions so I see where you're coming from.

I'd love to see different jobs fill the healing role in different ways. It would be a big improvement over both how healing works now and how it worked at 75. Hopefully the guy who came up with the Zanshin changes is currently hard at work on it, with the evil genius who plotted Cure VI being far, far away.

Parrow89

08-22-2011, 06:46 PM

As having both SCH and WHM at 90 there are a couple of things I'd like to point out that I'm sad to see that SE didn't continue as the progression of spells continues.

I was looking over the spell lists again between WHM and SCH and one question comes to mind. "Why hasn't Scholar's regen progression continued?"

Looking at the spell lists Scholar gets spells well after both WHM and BLM except for one, and that's regen. Scholar is the only job that gets it early. Regen at 18. Regen II at 37. Regen III at 83? Wait! Stop right there!

For comparison WHM gets Regen at 21, Regen II at 44, and Regen III at 66.

For all the complaints that SCH doesn't have Cure V which I'm not a fan of. I would present the suggestion that we restore SCH to being the Regen kings/queens. Keep the merits for Regen on whm and get rid of the regen + on sch gear.

My proposal is that Regen III goes to sch at 60, Regen IV at 80, and create a Regen V (or equal healing helix) and give scholar that spell at 95.

Regen IV currently at base restores 600 hp total and costs 82 mp to cast.
Regen V (or healing helix) I would propose at base restores 800 hp total and cost 100 mp to cast. Make it unable to be used with Accession.

With this I could see healing again even in aby made better cause I dare not take my SCH into it anymore.

Thoughts?

SpankWustler

08-22-2011, 07:38 PM

It would keep with the theme of the job, and probably be useful for activities like Dynamis where the long haul is more important than desperately scrabbling to keep people alive. The number is a little low, though.

An 800 HP Regen (40 a tick) would be just barely better than Regen IV with a Cleric's Briault and 5 Regen Merits. It would be a bit worse than Regen IV with Cleric's Briault, Regen Merits, and Orison Mitts. I actually took out my regen merits because I use the spell so rarely now in clutch situations, if that's any indication of how I think an even weaker regen than mine would fare.

If the base were 45 a tick, 50 with Savant's Mortarboard +2, and it could be used with Ascension and Perpetuance, then it would be awesome for old content and re-vamped Dynamis. Still lackluster for Abyssea and VoidWatch, but it's not like every spell in the book needs to useful against things that hit like trucks launched from outer space.

Not a bad idea at all, although your numbers were a little low. I can understand why you'd low-ball, since there's a big jump between Scholar's Regen III and White Mage's Regen IV.

Healing Helix (PhysioHelix?) would ideally work something like a normal Helix. I think Cure III, with both the soft cap and the VIT modifier removed, would produce something that felt like a Helix spell in terms of the effect of MND. This would give about 400 to 500 a tick depending on the Scholar's gear, which sounds right considering it's every 9 or 10 seconds. I'm less sure of these values than I usually am, so if anyone can correct me here, please do.

Parrow89

08-22-2011, 07:47 PM

If the base were 45 a tick, 50 with Savant's Mortarboard +2, and it could be used with Ascension and Perpetuance, then it would be awesome for old content and re-vamped Dynamis. Still lackluster for Abyssea and VoidWatch, but it's not like every spell in the book needs to useful against things that hit like trucks launched from outer space.

I find those numbers would work out really well. The low ball was also to include the fact that Scholars are not White Mages. I fully understand this and accept this. Which is why I support that we shouldn't get Cure V but still this would help the healing situation some. This is far from a solution but a step in the right direction imo.

Fadnog

08-22-2011, 08:05 PM

I like the idea of a helix like heal. My idea for it would be something like:

Paulatim Sanare: (To heal gradually; in latin): It heals the target for like 300ish and adds a buff that is separate from regen that heals like 40ish hp/tick over a minute, which will end up healing 800 hp.

Then allow the buff so that it can stack with other regen effects. While the spell's regen itself isn't the strongest, if you can stack it with other regen effects allows us to heal more over time then a single regen effect.

Another option could be to make the spell's helix regen heals a % of initially healed hp a tick rather then a flat amount.

Parrow89

08-22-2011, 08:23 PM

Paulatim Sanare: (To heal gradually; in latin): It heals the target for like 300ish and adds a buff that is separate from regen that heals like 40ish hp/tick over a minute, which will end up healing 800 hp.

I really like the concept and name as it keeps with other scholar abilities. Though I'd might want to make it a JA with a 5-10 min cooldown timer.

Revised as if a Job ability:
Paulatim Sanare: Your next healing spell will also apply a heal over time effect equal to the amount healed.

Formula for which would be:
(Amount healed)/20 So the amount healed would be restored over a min just like a regen spell.

Parrow89

08-22-2011, 08:25 PM

With both giving SCH regen up to where we should be and this as a job ability I think that would bring a good buff to the light arts side of things.

Fadnog

08-22-2011, 08:41 PM

I like the idea of it being a JA instead of a spell, as it will also allow us to heal the appropriate amount to the given situation without having to use more MP then we have too. I think this would work well as so long as its not made into a stratagem and its just a normal JA.

Economizer

08-23-2011, 01:08 AM

I was looking over the spell lists again between WHM and SCH and one question comes to mind. "Why hasn't Scholar's regen progression continued?"

This is something that really didn't make sense to me either. Sure, you could argue that White Mage should have all the tiers too or something, but a big part of the "Scholar" concept is changing battlefield conditions, which should include DoT.

Bigger reliance on Regen spells would really help, especially since Scholar should be the "X over time" king.

Reading what everyone said here, I would prefer a potent healing helix over a job ability that makes a cure into a helix, unless of course, the job ability is a strat. But a helix spell would be better in the first place. It could even be more potent then what SpankWustler is suggesting depending on the recast timer. If the spell is a larger cure but always affected by weather, and has a fairly long recast, like 20-40 seconds, it could still work. Of course, a smaller cure would have to have a shorter recast, correspondingly.

On a somewhat unrelated note, inspired by this discussion, perhaps Scholar should get a job trait or spell that makes other jobs in the party affect it. For example, a Red Mage in the same party as a Scholar would make it so the Scholar could boost Fast Cast by 5% (or maybe Magic Accuracy) for everyone in the party. Or a Black Mage could do something with either Magic Attack or magical damage. Then again, this concept might not work well, plus it somewhat feels like Corsair's rolls getting a bonus depending on party members.

Reaux

08-23-2011, 02:14 AM

I like these last few suggestions for SCH. They would make it more unique, leaving the higher Cures for WHM but still giving something to SCH that is viable and in-tune with the job all unique. Only change I would make if Regen V were added would be to make it usable by Accession as that ability is something that makes certain buffs far more interesting on SCH than any other job.

Ank

08-23-2011, 02:34 AM

Always felt like SE was going to make sch the regen king, and then realized they already gave whm regen merits/gear out the butt and said screw it.

Cymmina

08-23-2011, 04:06 AM

How is a "better" Regen going to help? I agree that it "fits the theme", but it is hardly any help when mobs are now doing so much damage that hammering your Cure III and Cure IV macros back to back as fast as you can is not enough to keep up. Unless its ticks heal at minimum somewhere between Cure II and Cure III and are at least as frequent as a Helix, it's just going to be another "Look, you got something, now will you just please shut up now?" ability. I already don't use Regen IV as a WHM unless the fight is so easy that a RDM or SCH could handle the load and I have nothing else to do, giving it to SCH won't change anything.

I can't help but feel like since the 75 cap was raised, other jobs have received a new Rook or Bishop, while we've been given a handful of Pawns. Giving Cure V to other jobs won't change a thing for WHM. It was the best healing job at 75. It will still be the best healing job in the game, it just won't tower above the 2nd place jobs like it currently does.

SpankWustler

08-23-2011, 07:08 AM

How is a "better" Regen going to help? I agree that it "fits the theme", but it is hardly any help when mobs are now doing so much damage that hammering your Cure III and Cure IV macros back to back as fast as you can is not enough to keep up. Unless its ticks heal at minimum somewhere between Cure II and Cure III and are at least as frequent as a Helix, it's just going to be another "Look, you got something, now will you just please shut up now?" ability. I already don't use Regen IV as a WHM unless the fight is so easy that a RDM or SCH could handle the load and I have nothing else to do, giving it to SCH won't change anything.

Pretty much this. I think some Scholars are suggesting low numbers or cumbersome job abilities just because they don't understand how quickly a White Mage restores large amounts of HP in a situation where White Mage is needed to comfortably win a fight. Regen spells just don't help for that kind of situation.

There's really no "second best" right now, it's just fights you need a White Mage to win or stuff in which all healers are interchangeable.

Fadnog

08-23-2011, 06:58 PM

I agree giving SCH more regen isn't going too make it so that we can main heal on par with WHM, but I don't think SE wants other jobs to be able to main heal as well as WHM because that's WHM's main role.

Giving SCH more regen will allow us to be more effective at healing over time then WHM. The extra regen will make healing more manageable as well as making us more viable for more drawn out fights.

I believe that WHM is supposed to be better at healing then SCH or RDM for that matter. SCH however still does need a means of coming close to WHM in healing, in some shape or form.

Drusenija

08-25-2011, 01:06 PM

Reading through this thread, an idea occurred to me, so I figured I might as well post it ^^

Scholars are tactical casters essentially, yes? Forgetting Cure V for a moment, why not give us a spell called 'Reversal' that nullifies the next attack on a player (similar to a shadow) but also absorbs a percentage of the damage as HP instead (affected by cure potency perhaps?) It fits in well with the whole tactical theme of the job (you need to plan to use the spell in advance, so it's proactive, not reactive) and bypasses the higher tier Cure argument because you're mitigating the HP loss in advance rather than having to Cure it after the loss has happened.

In a spell name type format:

Scroll of Reversal
Scholar Lv.51
Teaches the White Magic Reversal.
Absorbs the next attack on target party
member as HP. Amount absorbed is greatly
affected by the weather.

Spell cost: 120 MP
Cast Time: 3 seconds
Recast Time: 10 seconds
Spell element: Light
Target: Party
Magic skill: Healing

The basic idea would be you'd cast this spell on a party member, and the next attack they receive is nullified, and a percentage of the attack is absorbed back into their HP. The amount absorbed would depend on the element of the attack. If there was no elemental damage attached to the attack (in other words, a regular weapon attack) then this would restore a base amount of HP. If it was a TP move (which normally has an element attached) or a spell, then a larger HP boost would be granted if the Scholar had cast the spell with the appropriate storm spell active.

Casting the spell with Rapture active would increase the amount of HP healed, and Accession would make it AoE for the party (much like our Cure spells can be made AoE), with the usual downsides of doubling the MP usage, casting and recasting time.

Again, this plays into the tactical idea of Scholar, you need to know the enemy you're fighting and know the right storm spell to be using when you cast the spell, and need to anticipate who is likely to actually take the damage, since the spell needs to be active _before_ the damage is taken.

To avoid it being used up on a basic attack from an enemy, you could build in a percentage based proc so the absorb effect only kicks in if a certain percentage of damage is done (percentage so the spell scales well both inside and out of Abyssea). That would widen the margin of error somewhat so you don't have to guess _exactly_ when a TP move is going to be used ^^

Judge

08-25-2011, 03:02 PM

I'd like to see Stoneskin2. Iron-hide or Steel-skin etc.
blocking 600 dmg~ for a short perioud of time. 3 minutes duration instead of 5, 75ish mp cost, and 3 minute recast(minus haste effect)
so in order to spam it more often you would have to use up strats. thus making it not a WHM replacement, just an alternative.
having the party not take dmg in the 1st place would remove the need for higher cures.
whms wouldn't feel that their territory is being invaded. RDM i guess could get it @ 99 too.

TimeMage

08-25-2011, 11:22 PM

Scroll of Reversal
Scholar Lv.51
Teaches the White Magic Reversal.
Absorbs the next attack on target party
member as HP. Amount absorbed is greatly
affected by the weather.

Spell cost: 120 MP
Cast Time: 3 seconds
Recast Time: 10 seconds
Spell element: Light
Target: Party
Magic skill: Healing

This is BRILLIANT. Recast time, duration of the status, trigger HP damage, MP cost, etc. should be tweaked to make it balanced and useful, but I love the general idea. I'm going to spread this idea around as much as I can, I think it's perfect.

Economizer

08-26-2011, 04:08 AM

Reversal certainly sounds like a good concept. I think that aside from other adjustments the level should be a bit higher, but certainly a good idea, provided it doesn't break game balance.

Hearing about Stoneskin II is interesting. One suggestion I could give would be to start off by uncapping the limit of damage Stoneskin absorbs (this would about double the amount absorbed) - this would mainly help Accessioning Scholars in a small way. A second tier should be much, much faster casting, and still be self target, with a greater amount absorbed then just 600 (given a long recast, ~1500 is closer to a fair amount, especially if duration is reduced). Even with White Mage and Red Mage getting it, it would be most useful for Scholars, assuming that it casts fast enough to be able to quickly run in and AOE it.

Drusenija

08-26-2011, 10:13 AM

Following on from our Sublimation concept, why not add in a new job ability? Let's call it "Sanguinem" (Latin for bleeding). Like Sublimation, it drains x/tic HP from you and stores it in a pool (to make it actually viable as an ability, you'd probably need it storing y:1 in the pool for each tic taken, much like Sublimation grants 3:1 MP:HP; if you had a 20:1 ratio, then you'd store 400hp per minute, which is roughly equivalent of 1 Cure IV every minute, hardly game breaking). It would need to stack with Sublimation though (this is where Regen spells are useful ^^)

I'm going to link this to my Reversal idea. When Reversal is cast on a target party member whilst the Scholar is under the effect of Sanguinem, any stored HP is immediately granted to the target party member and the effect of Sanguinem is removed from the Scholar. So essentially it turn Reversal into an immediate Cure spell (whose potency is affected by the amount of time the Scholar was under the effect of Sanguinem), plus has the benefits of Reversal.

Edit:
20:1 is probably unreasonable due to the minor loss of HP to the Scholar for what you're storing. The 20 is probably okay, but it might be 20:3 for example so you'd lose 60hp per minute by having this up. When combined with Sublimation, you're losing 4hp/tick so 80hp/min. Still manageable with Stoneskin and/or Regen.

Economizer

08-26-2011, 11:31 AM

If you want some sort of ability that works sortof like a hybrid of Martyr and Sublimation, it would probably be merited. The biggest problem would be making the cap no based on your max HP like Sublimation, because for a cure, this would be terrible unless it was at least half of your total HP, if it is an ability to you want use as an extra Cure IV or whatever. Better would be making the cap based on some mix of healing magic skill, VIT and MND, such as Cap = Skill + VIT + MND, or Cap = Skill + 4/3MND + VIT/2.

I personally would try to avoid linking this to a suggestion about a spell that already Blinks/Absorbs damage, as considering balance issues seems to be a full time job for the devs already, but it is definitely something that may fit the job if it isn't useless.

Bubeeky

08-27-2011, 03:20 AM

Ahrana

08-27-2011, 05:39 AM

Could also give sch their own unique brand of cures that are reactive in nature, acting as a buff that automatically heals the recipient when they are hit, so like, for the next 3 mins or so, whenever the tank actually takes damage, the cure automatically gives him say, 100 hp back, no regen or direct cure involved.

The problem with that type of spell is it is either overpowered or completely useless. I could easilly see a fell cleave type situation where someone runs out and gathers 20 bats who do 15-20 damage per hit, but instead of killing them they run over and kill glavoid. On the flip side healing 100 hp's when a when a monster is pushing out 800+ AoE damage to everyone in range also doesn't work.

Bubeeky

08-27-2011, 05:49 AM

Well, it could be modified so that it can only heal a certain % of the hit, and each tier of the spell heals more, and so like if the spell healed 50% of the hit, you couldn't abuse it by gathering a bunch of mobs, but at the same time it would help supplement direct cures a little bit.

Ahrana

08-27-2011, 04:12 PM

Why not make it a spell that gives -%pdt instead? That would make it far more unique, although that's more of a red mage sounding spell.

Drusenija

08-27-2011, 08:20 PM

Why not make it a spell that gives -%pdt instead? That would make it far more unique, although that's more of a red mage sounding spell.

Isn't that basically Phalanx with a different formula? From memory, Phalanx knocks a certain amount of each hit taken (which is calculated before Stoneskin damage, which is why the two spells get used together).

TimeMage

08-28-2011, 02:18 AM

Not exactly. Phalanx is a reduction of a certain amount of damage, which is why it works wonders for enemies that hit very fast, but with weak attacks. -PDT is a certain percentage of the damage taken, so it will scale with the damage received.

Either way, I don't think it would help us at being better healers, unless the buff is brokenly potent. I'd prefer something predictive, like Reversal, or reactive, like Cure V.

Alkimi

08-28-2011, 10:30 AM

I'd imagine a solution would probably be something like Thaumaturge's Sacrifice from FFXIV, which for those who haven't played is a slightly gimper cure but with a large regen effect for 30 seconds.

Or just have all 4 cure spells do this while under light arts (for SCH main only obviously). A kind of equivalent to WHM's Afflatus Solace.

Hawk

08-28-2011, 11:29 PM

I have a few ideas for sch. Some of these may have been said before and if they were, I apologize.

SE wants SCH to have it's own unique spells, so let's start with SCH's first two sets of unique spells.

Tier 2 Storm spells: Would add Double weather effect, reduce damage taken by spells of that element, occationally absorb damage taken by spells of that element (much like tier II carol's but stacks with both carol's and bar spells), and Stormsurge merit stats are doubled (instead of +7 str on firestorm, +14 str on firestorm II if fully merited)

Tier 2 Helix spells: Dealing double+ the damage of normal helix spells and lasting for 1:30-2 min. Would still work with Modus Veritas.

Give a second Regain spell. Can make it 2 tp + a tick and stack with Adlo or can make it 3 tp + a tick and not stack.

As for curing, we could gain a stance much like WHM has solace. But instead of adding stoneskin, add a potent regen effect. Make it stack with our actual regen spells. Cure 1 = Regen II, Cure 2 = Regen III, Cure 3 = Regen IV, and Cure IV = Regen V or maybe even what would be Regen VI.

Another stance would be something that I read posted in this thread. Make it a stance that all strats you use, count double and use 2 charges. So you can use Rapture and do two powerful Cure IV's to help with curing.

Make it possible for both these stances to be up at the same time.

Can make the strat stance be for both light arts and dark arts. The Regen stance for light only and it can have a dark arts counterpart.

Dark Arts counterpart stance can add a helix like effect of the element you nuke with on the mob, and can make it stack with helix and helix 2 spells.

Let me know what you think and hopeful the dev's do something to help our healing.

Merton9999

08-29-2011, 03:16 AM

@Hawk
No thanks on the DoT after nuking. First, you wouldn't be able to sleep nuke anything. Second, it would drive me crazy if I was going for azure or a staff trial kill and my second nuke got slightly resisted and the mob died from the DoT, not giving azure or staff kill credit. If I want a DoT I have no problem doing nuke + helix to choose when it happens. A regen effect after cures doesn't sound bad...

I still think storm spells should be enhanced through a JA or another spell rather than adding 8 new tier two spells. A JA with a timer that makes us prioritize who gets the double effect, because in many cases, these would be extremely potent.

Adloquium needs to be better. I don't know if I'd want to layer another spell on top of it, casting 8 times intead of 4, or using up two or four strats to Accession and/or Perpetuance them. I think this is where a JA would fit in nicely again. A Modus Veritas type that works on party members to double tick based enhancements and reduce their duration. Again you have to choose who gets the better version, and I'd say an instant JA is better than another cycle spell at this point.

Hawk

08-29-2011, 05:02 AM

@Merton9999

Well the DOT after nuke would be a stance. Meaning if you don't want it, for like sleep nuking, don't use that stance. Simple as that. It would be good for a larger HNM where you could stack with helix's and other dot's. And yeah, 8 more spells may seem bad, but they would replace regular storms so no extra macros.

Drusenija

08-29-2011, 03:57 PM

Not exactly. Phalanx is a reduction of a certain amount of damage, which is why it works wonders for enemies that hit very fast, but with weak attacks. -PDT is a certain percentage of the damage taken, so it will scale with the damage received.

It's still conceptually the same spell; one is -fixed amount per hit, one is -% amount per hit. -%PDT is obviously much more useful, my point was just it's not a unique concept, just an evolution of an existing one ^^

Another possible idea is to link it to our stratagems? That may not necessarily work due to the fact even at 90 they only recharge once every 48 seconds, but if you wanted to give Scholars access to Tier V+ healing magic (or even elemental magic for that matter), add a stratagem that only can be used whilst under the affect of Addendum White/Black that lasts for a single spell (like any other stratagem) that grants access to Tier V+ magic.

You essentially are then saying that every cast of Cure V is going to cost you a stratagem. It also effectively limits your usage of the spell (so you're not replacing a White Mage), but still gives you access to powerful curative magic in a pinch. It also means you'd be consciously playing a healing role and locking yourself into it to some degree since switching arts will cost you your Addendum stratagem as a minimum and more if you wanted Addendum Black, which some people may not want. (It would make Enlightenment a much more appealing merit ability at the very least!)

As an example (using "Arcana" as the name for this new stratagem):
Light Arts (5 stratagems left)
Addendum: White (4 stratagems left)
Arcana (3 stratagems left)
Cure V (3 stratagems left)
Arcana (2 stratagems left)
Cure V (2 stratagems left)
Arcana (1 stratagems left)
Cure V (1 stratagems left)
Arcana (0 stratagems left)
Cure V (0 stratagems left)
-- at this point you have to wait for your next stratagem to charge --
Cure IV
Cure IV
Arcana
Cure V
Cure IV
Cure IV
-- etc, etc, etc --

Basically, you can 'spike' Cure in a pinch by spamming stratagems, but it's not giving your Cure IV and Cure V permanently to bounce between.

I like Reversal better personally ^^ But just another thought to discuss.

Jamesy

08-31-2011, 01:07 PM

i honestly think making cure V only accessible through a stratagem is an absolutely horrible idea doing so would inhibit scholars flexibility.

think about this you would be wasting all of your stratagems just to cast a decent cure.

if anything i believe a healing type helix would make more sense say a base of 200-300 hp and then repeat for a minute giving 100 hp or so.

sorry my bad only way id see it being ok if its only allowed under addendum

Economizer

08-31-2011, 02:30 PM

I believe this has already been discussed before, but I'll say it again, since it is frustrating to find stuff sometimes.

Tier 2 Storm spells: Would add Double weather effect, reduce damage taken by spells of that element, occationally absorb damage taken by spells of that element (much like tier II carol's but stacks with both carol's and bar spells), and Stormsurge merit stats are doubled (instead of +7 str on firestorm, +14 str on firestorm II if fully merited)

Tier 2 storm spells would already be overpowered enough as is, without giving them more overpowered BS on top of it. If you want storm spells to make people absorb the element, it should definitely be a separate spell, at the least. Doubling Stormsurge would be fine however.

Here are what weather effects give, assuming you are wearing an elemental obi:

10% for magic of the day
10% for magic matching single weather
25% for magic matching double weather
35% for magic matching double weather and day

This is also in addition to the 5% boost given by the Twilight Cape. Note that these bonuses stack with other bonuses multiplicatively and ignore caps.

A Scholar with a perfect cure potency set can reach 38% outside Abyssea, and 50% inside. With single weather effects from the Korin Obi and the Twilight Cape, this becomes 58% outside, and 72% inside. If these boosts were double weather, they would be 79% and 95%, respectively. Ignoring the mini-expansion equipment, double weather would still get a respectable 69% outside Abyssea. It gets worse when you consider elemental nukes, which many Scholars consider to be pretty balanced.

Perhaps this wouldn't be as bad if SE also adjusted the levels at which Scholar gets Thunderstorm, Voidstorm, and Aurorastorm to subable levels, but as is, the boost means that in lowman situations, the only thing protecting older jobs from being obsoleted is the ability to proc for Black Mage, or the presence of of a single spell for White Mage.

Having a Scholar is already a incredible useful thing - a 15% multiplying boost to spells in many situations. Perhaps this maybe overshadowed by other jobs getting many of the storm spells - one of the things that make Scholar's unique. Perhaps the solution is to give it the Refresh treatment, or perhaps the solution is to give it the treatment that other jobs with a monopoly on certain spells, skills, and abilities got when Wings of the Goddess came out. But double weather is a very, very, very strong buff, and should be decided on carefully.

SpankWustler

09-01-2011, 12:30 AM

Sotek

09-01-2011, 01:48 AM

I wouldn't complain if Stormsurge simply added 1% to Storm spells effect and nothing more - though ideally the stats boost would still be there and work like Gain spells rather than a static +#.

Merton9999

09-01-2011, 01:54 AM

A stratagem that enables new spells would be basically the same as the current stratagems that drastically increase potency, and the cure power stratagem is less than amazing.

Lowering the levels of the single weathers so the last one is at 49 and adding double weathers for high level Scholars would be really awesome. Since double weather provides over twice the bonus of single weather, Scholar would only gain from this and it would give many mage jobs new toys.

I am extremely in favor of this. It narrows the gap that would be created between WHM and SCH cure potency and allows BLM to enhance their own best nuke. It allows SCH to retain the master magic enhancer position by providing a natural evolution to one of the most interesting aspects of the job that has barely been touched outside of what is now a very minimal enhancement from Stormsurge. Double weather has been something almost every SCH has wanted since 2007, and this sounds like a perfect way to do it while minimizing the QQing from other jobs.

Ank

09-01-2011, 05:10 PM

Hailstorm will already be subbable by 99, I'm all for reducing the levels and letting whm/sch aurorastorm itself especially if we get double weathers.

Raksha

09-01-2011, 10:54 PM

This could potentially be a solution to SCHs light arts woes. Capped cure potency and double weather would give cure4 quite a punch.

the rough numbers i punched into a cure calculator came up with 740ish cure4. That's respectable without being overpowered. It doesnt solve the problem of needing a decent 2nd cure to alternate while spamming though.

TimeMage

09-02-2011, 03:13 AM

Nor the problem of generating much more enmity than a 1200 HP Cure V.

Miera

09-04-2011, 12:52 PM

I just find it funny they gave us Raise 3 and Reraise 3 and no higher tier Cure.. It just makes no sense..

Also I believe that the new Gain and Boost abilities are a tad better than Storm spells when it comes to the stat boost it gives.

I think we should get Stormsurge II and have it raise the stats few a few more points and give double weather.

Or give us the ability to further enhance Storms spells, not like Klimaform but something better. A JA you can trigger that lasts for like 30 minutes and gives more stats to your storm affects and better magic acc.

SpankWustler

09-04-2011, 03:06 PM

Nor the problem of generating much more enmity than a 1200 HP Cure V.

Honestly, I don't think enmity gain would be a huge issue if it were just possible for any job other than White Mage to keep people alive in new content. Lower enmity gain is an advantage that White Mage has had since day one, and a pretty awesome bonus for the best healer to have.

However, only one job being able to make people not die for almost all new content is pretty dumb.

sigma_star

09-05-2011, 06:11 AM

Tier 2 storm spells would already be overpowered enough as is, without giving them more overpowered BS on top of it. If you want storm spells to make people absorb the element, it should definitely be a separate spell, at the least.

How exactly is double weather an overpowered buff? If we're talking about healing, it's still the case that cure iv + double weather < cure v. Plus, we still have no reasonable alt heal while cure iv is in cooldown. Sch still could not pull main heal at all even with tier 2 weather.

Anyway ere's idea that I had:
Tier 1 and tier 2 can stack - giving a tier 3 weather.
Bonuses: Healing helix and normal helix have a reasonable punch at high level. IMO even tier 2 isn't a whole lot of a bonus when comparing high level heals and nukes.
Negative: Have EVERY element not of current tier 3 weather suffer penalty. Also, have weathers not manually removable, so you have to cast new weather in order to switch. This would make switching a little harder if you want to use it.

Eric

09-05-2011, 09:05 AM

The argument that Tier 2 weather would be overpowered mostly applies to Dark Arts, in which case, BLM still blows us out of the water(and rightfully so).

Edit: I definitely do not agree with the idea of triple weather. THAT would definitely be overpowered.

TimeMage

09-05-2011, 11:36 AM

Eric

09-05-2011, 06:28 PM

T2 weather would/should be castable on others and accesionable, so that shouldn't be a cause of complaint from WHMs or BLMs, on the contrary, for the small inconvenience of farming an obi, they get to be awesome.

:( i agree that getting the obis is worth it, but getting all 8 obis is *not* a small inconvenience. maybe i'm just lazy.

TimeMage

09-05-2011, 08:34 PM

Well, I was mainly thinking of WHMs, as they only have to worry about Korin. On the other hand, Hyorin and Rairin are more than enough for nukers. I only have 4, Korin, Hyorin, Rairin and Furin for Aero V, and don't usually miss the others.

Obis are much easier than completing a +2 magian staff, and provide similar/better bonuses.

Ank

09-05-2011, 11:59 PM

You only need like 4 or so, whm only needs 1 - I have light, dark, thunder, ice. Fish were soloable at 75, they're hella easy to farm now. Finally got my light a couple weeks ago, I have to admit its a pretty nice boost, some day I'll finish surya's.

As far as "triple weather", we don't even have double weather so that's just overreaching. Weather bonus caps right now anyways.

Economizer

09-06-2011, 12:37 AM

Obis are much easier than completing a +2 magian staff, and provide similar/better bonuses.

Fish were soloable at 75, they're hella easy to farm now.

Luminion Tissue is the bane of my existence.

Ank

09-06-2011, 12:43 AM

Well okay I can't deny that, without a lil luck, tissue can be a huge pain. Pretty much the inverse of yovra organs, any mob can drop but terrible droprate. If you're having trouble it might be worthwhile teaming up with a melee that wants to farm a gorget.

TimeMage

09-06-2011, 12:44 AM

Luminion Tissue is the bane of my existence.

Keep trying, I had your luck at first. Then, suddenly, I found myself with 12 luminian tissues laying around in my storage.

Economizer

09-06-2011, 12:49 AM

Keep trying, I had your luck at first. Then, suddenly, I found myself with 12 luminian tissues laying around in my storage.

Except the 12 luminion tissues are three full pop sets for all the jailers you'd need to get an AV popset. So... many... H.Q. Organs...

Kasandaro

09-06-2011, 06:40 AM

Luminion Tissue is the bane of my existence.

If you have THF high enough, it's the common Despoil off south Sea mobs. (A use for Despoil! Who knew!?)

Economizer

09-06-2011, 07:13 AM

If you have THF high enough, it's the common Despoil off south Sea mobs. (A use for Despoil! Who knew!?)

Guess what I plan on leveling before I ever farm more Obi? :mad:

Merton9999

09-06-2011, 07:22 AM

Luminion Tissue is the bane of my existence.

Luminion Tissue is the one that killed me too. I did Korin, Hyron, Rairin, Furin a while ago, and recently got Anrin for Kaustra. One day I'll get the rest but it's the tissue that stops me.

IDK about triple weather either, or two different types at once. I like the relative complexity of SCH, but I think double is an adequate and exciting enough enhancement without thinking about dual weather or any sacrifices that might be required for triple.

Katalsar

09-15-2011, 10:23 AM

Getting off the point of thread.

Katalsar

09-15-2011, 10:30 AM

Sum this up...

Healing Helix?
- Yes, this should've been introduced at 75 cap.

Should healing helices be stackable w/ Embrava or Regen?
- Yes, this would put SCH at an edge for curing in its own way.

SCH stuck with Regen III while WHM has Regen IV?
- SE this makes no sense, SCH gets regen I and II before WHM so why are we stuck at Regen III while WHM has regen IV. I say that SCH should be having regen IV while WHM has Regen III.

Economizer

09-15-2011, 11:39 AM

SCH stuck with Regen III while WHM has Regen IV?
- SE this makes no sense, SCH gets regen I and II before WHM so why are we stuck at Regen III while WHM has regen IV. I say that SCH should be having regen IV while WHM has Regen III.

Having White Mage stuck at Regen III while Scholar gets Regen IV isn't any better. Ultimately, both should have the spell.

The Regen line of spells is only really MP efficient for Red Mage and Scholar - as a bunch of smart people pointed out on a topic in the White Mage forums - cures are too efficient, and only Red Mage and Scholar can extend the duration of enhancing magic. Thus, as long as Scholar gets Regen IV, it will be better casted by a Scholar unless White Mage somehow can get it to cure twice as much per tic.

Having something to stack with the Regen effect would be even better for Scholar, perhaps alongside gear that reduces the cost of casting Helix/Regen spells.

Yugl

09-15-2011, 12:52 PM

I wouldn't mind a perma-strategem move that takes 5 books. That said, I agree with SE giving SCH Cure V.

Judge

09-15-2011, 02:40 PM

I'd like to see animus enmity affect the enmity cap. if only a small margin it would still keep a mob leaning toward certain players more often(once they reach hate cap).

They added an earring that increases cure amounts received... why not give SCH a spell/buff that enhances cure amounts received as well. this would make cure5 not "omg we need this" for sch if it added +10% or so.(up for debate).

Back to the cure helix idea... what if it was just a strat that had a light and dark counterpart. Separate from the arts but affecting both in the same way. 1 strat cost. Maybe call it "Reiterate".

Light part: causes the next cure to echo/repeat. Example[initial cure= 500~, 250~, 125~, 62~, 31~ end]

Dark part: causes next elemental nuke to echo/repeat. Example[Initial nuke= 2000, 1000, 500, 250, 125 end]
stacks with helices as well so no need for Helix2 spells.

and both stacking with other strats for increased efficiency. potency, cost, w/e.

Oh and a JA to make SCH's normal weather doubled. no need for a new scroll.

Economizer

09-15-2011, 03:46 PM

I'd like to see animus enmity affect the enmity cap. if only a small margin it would still keep a mob leaning toward certain players more often(once they reach hate cap).

SE already said stuff like this is a bad idea for Paladin, so I don't see why it would be a good idea for Scholar. That said, I think making enmity decay or grow without action would be a better mechanic, or an overhaul of the current effects.

Oh and a JA to make SCH's normal weather doubled. no need for a new scroll.

Discussed before, probably in a different thread, I'm losing track. Like I've said before this is a possibility, but I doubt and don't think Scholar should be able to Rapture weather effects until everyone else can get every weather effect. Considering that most of Scholar's weather effects are sub usable, it is only natural to give up the rest and then get double the effect (which is actually more then double, since it multiplies with other effects!).

Thus, I think we will see double weather when the three remaining weather effects get moved to sub usable levels, if it happens.

Also, for double weather, should Scholar ever get them, I think Stormsurge effects should be considered for not just doubling, but possibly tripling the effects.

acekasbo

11-16-2011, 08:11 PM

I'm sure someone has said it somewhere but how about a Rapture II stratagem that uses 2 charges and is a 75% bonus? It would give SCH a little kick while burning up stratagems faster so they wouldn't be able to keep it up like a whm can.

Or someone was talking about addendum: white and black bonuses. Let's say while under the effect of Add: White ( Black ) that Rapture ( Ebullience ) will remain active for 2 spells. I don't know really, I like SCH I'd just like to see people even care about whether or not one is around lol

Daniel_Hatcher

11-16-2011, 09:44 PM

Zhronne

11-16-2011, 10:42 PM

2 stratagems for an extra increase of 15% potency... No thanks!
^
This per 10.000
Makes no sense at all.

Lancil

11-17-2011, 06:04 AM

I was browsing around and got sent to a link about the sch regen buffs and posted, then realized it was in the test server table. sooo here we go.

As a whm I would welcome sch for the super buffed regen. With the enhanced regen per tic and longer duration it would allow me to use lower cures most of the time thus saving more mp. I would gladly welcome these changes and a sch as a support anytime.

As for the whms being able to go between cure V, VI for back to back cures I call BS. I have only used Cure VI once outside of abyssea and the was because 4 and 5 were down and I was solo healing in a low man group. Cure VI is a waste and should never be used outside of abyssea. When I am in an actual party I anticipate the other healers and throw lower cures (3-4) and only cure V when needed because I know they can back me up.

Zhronne

11-17-2011, 05:07 PM

Now if we're talking about "spamming" Cure VI as much as people usually spam it inside Abyssea I can agree with you Lancil.
But if you're saying people should NEVER use Cure VI and that you used it only ONCE then please let me say I'm a bit perplexed.
First it depends on what you're considering as "out of abyssea". Aside from a couple of arch bosses inside Dynamis, the only high level content outside of abyssea is Voidwatch. It's not really worth to consider the rest of the content as it's currently outdated or meant for small groups, so of course it's only obvious Cure VI is not necessary in such situations, and SCH (probably a lot of other mage jobs with /WHM as well) can cure just fine.

Inside voidwatch I think I have 2500 or 2600 HP on my MNK. There are a lot of abilities who bring me pretty low on HP very fast, wether because of single powerful abilities or because 2 of them have been used in a row (a spell and a tp move, or a triple attack and a tp move, or a crit and a tp move, etc).
How do you call Cure VI "useless" in those situations?

So once again, you'll find me agreeing if we're talking about C6 spamming, but "I used C6 only once, nobody should use it" seems definitely way too exagerated.